Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Greater Manchester/Archive 29

Tyldesley
I have put a bit of info onto the Tyldesley page and it is, with all your help, now B class, but am not sure what else it needs. Any suggestions as to improving it further? --J3Mrs (talk) 21:26, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Are you thinking of taking this to GA? If so I've got a few suggestions to make, one of which is that it won't get away with an empty Notable people section, or uncited paragraphs like the last three in the Education section. I'd also suggest leaving the article for a day or two and then coming back to read it with fresh eyes, when you may more easily spot things like this, in the lead: "Historically a part of Lancashire, the earliest evidence of human activity in Tyldesley are the remains of a Roman road ...". It looks good though, just needs a bit more to get to the next level. --Malleus Fatuorum 01:16, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Well up to a couple of weeks ago I had no idea what GA was............ but, if it is possible I suppose so and I'm sure I'll need help as I basically barely know what I'm doing. I have taken time off and will go through to correct things like grammar but to be honest I don't have a clue about notable people, well certainly not living ones. Kind of you to say it looks good, a bit of encouragement goes a long way :)--J3Mrs (talk) 16:28, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Have a look at some of the other Greater Manchester Good Articles. See what they contain, and how Tyldesley measures up.  Obviously towns have different histories, but I wouldn't have been able to get Radcliffe into shape without looking at those. Parrot of Doom (talk) 17:07, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Having a section for notable people isn't a necessity. There are several articles without them, such as Manchester and Sale, and isn't not easy to guarantee that no one notable is left out. I've noticed on my watchlist the article expanding and it's been very encouraging to see the effort put into it. Nev1 (talk) 17:17, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * As there doesn't seem to be anything specific to say about notable people from Tyldesley I've dealt with the Wigan list exactly as Sale does. Reading through the article again though I was struck by the discordance between the image caption which says "The Parish Church of St George is a Grade II listed building, and with a spire 150 feet (46 m) high, is one of Tyldesley's chief landmarks" and the omission of any account of the building in the Landmarks section. That it would miss out one of Tyldesleys chief landmarks seems strange. --Malleus Fatuorum 18:07, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Well I might be wrong but I have referred to St George's Church in the Landmarks section. Maybe I haven't made it clear enough:( I am looking through the GA articles for inspiration trouble is they are too interesting and I am easily side tracked.--J3Mrs (talk) 18:17, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Sorry, forget I spoke, of course you have. I was looking at the wrong section! :lol: --Malleus Fatuorum 18:24, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Not a problem :) You can borrow my specs, if I can find them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by J3Mrs (talk • contribs) 18:59, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

JP Travel
There is a discussion ongoing at Talk:JP Travel about the notability of this article. Please feel free to wade in and give your opinions. Skinsmoke (talk) 19:30, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Criminal records 1791–1892
This newly released info is free to access for 14 days, after which it'll need a subscription. Anyone researching bad boys and girls might find it useful. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:24, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Is that a 14 day trial, or a 14 day from now and then everyone has to register? Parrot of Doom (talk) 22:35, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It's a 14-day trial. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:51, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * So presumably logs your IP then, to prevent multiple email accounts. I wonder if my neighbour still hasn't protected his wifi... Parrot of Doom (talk) 23:47, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I've no idea what it costs, but maybe we could have a whipround for a GM project email address. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:54, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Anti-Corn Law League
Is anyone else interested in this? It's caught my eye because I think that we really haven't done Manchester's radical history much justice so far. There's no kudos for creating a new article of course, just the graft of turning a stub into a silk purse. :-) --Malleus Fatuorum 23:22, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Move to commons?
Anybody willing and able to help move these to Wikimedia Commons? I've approached User:P.hogg a couple of times before but without much luck. It would be nice to keep expanding our image banks at commons. --Jza84 | Talk  09:15, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Think that is all done other than the ones used on Rochdale way template Pit-yacker (talk) 21:38, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll delete some of the files on here that are already on commons. Nev1 (talk) 00:05, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

A helping hand?
It's got nothing to do with WP:GM, but Maiden Castle, Dorset, is today's Featured Article and I'd appreciate a helping hand with any vandalism that crops up. I wanted to get the article onto the front page, but had hoped I'd be able to get some better pictures first (I only found out when someone move-protected the page!) Nev1 (talk) 00:05, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

North Road (stadium) FAC
Hi guys, is there any chance that someone could give North Road (stadium) a good copyediting? The article is currently up for promotion to FA status, but apparently it needs copyediting to tighten up some of the prose. The content should be fine, but User:Tony1 believes that the text has a slightly "pompous" quality to it. As I said, this is pretty much all that stands in the way of this article getting promoted to FA status, and the FAC has been running for nearly a month now, so some speedy action would be a great help! – PeeJay 22:12, 4 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Blimey, that one's been going for a while, let's see what we can do. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:57, 4 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I have a couple of comments, but I think "pompous" is a bit harsh. In the lead there's the sentence "The football club split from its parent railway company...": what railway company is this? It's explained later on, but in the lead it just leaves the reader with questions. Also, why was the site a "prime location"? If it was because it was close at hand for the wagon workers, something like "close by" would probably be less "pompous". Nev1 (talk) 23:25, 4 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I've changed "prime location" to "conveniently sited", as I think that's the sense of what's meant. PeeJay, I think it's time to invite Tony to take another look. Best of luck, we're all rooting for you. :-) --Malleus Fatuorum 00:19, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for looking at the article, guys. I hope it will be enough to push it past the FA mark. Bank Street (stadium) next! – PeeJay 06:28, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Well done to us, it's now an FA. :-) --Malleus Fatuorum 00:47, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Another request for eyes
Ian Brady of Moors murders fame is now 71, and has been on hunger strike for the last ten years apparently. He's not immortal, and when he dies there's almost certainly going to be an awful lot of media attention, so it would be nice if our article did justice to the subject. I've been slowly plugging away at it, and I think I'm getting close to the kind of article that's in my mind, but I feel that some second opinions would be very helpful.

PS: I didn't write this article from scratch, I just picked it up, so there are still a few bits that remain uncited and so may need to be reworked. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:13, 8 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Looks alot better than it did a few weeks back! I'll stick it on my watchlist. I can possibly get pictures if needbe, but only as good as we've got already really.


 * Just wondering if the page needs moving to the capitalised "Moors Murders"? Afterall, we don't use "Peterloo massacre". --Jza84 | Talk  23:37, 8 August 2009 (UTC)


 * "Moors murders" seems to be way they're usually described, as opposed to the "Moors Murderers". --Malleus Fatuorum 00:41, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it's OK for images, although I'd like a picture of Chester Assizes, it's gaps in the story I'm looking for. --Malleus Fatuorum 01:55, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

I've found this article astonishingly difficult to write, and I was even moved to tears earlier today when I read Winnie Johnson's letter to Myra Hindley, begging for help to find the body of her son. I'm not certain I'm getting the balance right between objective reporting of the facts and giving an impression of the outrage these murders provoked, so any comments on that aspect would be useful as well. --Malleus Fatuorum 21:04, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Malleus do you intend to work on Ian Brady as well? It certainly needs a lot of work, and I expect his article would get as much attention as this one.  Majorly  talk  15:55, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I hadn't really thought about it, but his article ought to be fairly easy to lick into shape once the Moors murders is done, as he's been in prison for the last 43 years. I don't think it's really all that bad anyway, but obviously needs a bit of tlc and a lot more citations (if you're offering). --Malleus Fatuorum 18:42, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

"Wakes" and Wakes weeks
Can anybody point me in the direction of anything that might reference wakes weeks?

Also the travelling fair that visited Tyldesley was referred to as "Bong's Wakes", I'd like to mention it but can't find a reference.

--J3Mrs (talk) 17:35, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Just this.They were still celebrated when I did teaching practice in Blackburn in the late '60s--Harkey (talk) 18:07, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


 * National Fairground Archive might be able to help with the travelling fair.--Harkey (talk) 08:25, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for that, I found one too. here —Preceding unsigned comment added by J3Mrs (talk • contribs) 17:58, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It's a topic closely associated with the railways, so I may be able to find some refs in my railway book collection; possibly only passing refs though, and in a general sense.  Hassocks  5489 (tickets please!)  10:03, 8 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I would expect the People's History Museum to have something, but it's shut ATM. Their page of external links points us at the Working Class Movement Library which looks worth a shout.  Google Scholar has lots but you'll need an academic library account to get far.  Mr Stephen (talk) 10:33, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * HUDSON, JOHN; Wakes Week : Memories of Mill Town Holidays is in Manchester Central Library at 942.7Hu. It's mostly about mid 20th century memories, but there is a chapter on how Wakes Weeks came about, and a bibliography which looks to have some likely stuff. 130.88.114.64 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 15:33, 11 August 2009 (UTC).

Once again thank you all, that gives me something to go on. --J3Mrs (talk) 09:46, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Leigh
I made a bit of a start putting in some detail on Leigh but I would like a bit of help moving some of the pictures, especially the library one, as it leaves big empty space.--J3Mrs (talk) 16:07, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Nev1--J3Mrs (talk) 17:45, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I've only shifted one image, but it looks a bit better. When expanding an article, it's usually easier to worry about the layout of images last as more text may be added later, changing the placements. Nev1 (talk) 17:50, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

I can manage expanding the article but am bewildered by most other things, I really am so I do appreciate any help whatsoever. Thank you too to Malleus --J3Mrs (talk) 18:20, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * No problem. I hope you soon get enough citations in there to get rid of that ugly tag at the head of the article. I just hate those damn things. --Malleus Fatuorum 18:23, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

I can reference the stuff I add, I just don't always know where the rest has come from.--J3Mrs (talk) 18:32, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to get rid of the one on Astley too:( Psychological thing I think —Preceding unsigned comment added by J3Mrs (talk • contribs) 18:35, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * It's a lot harder trying to find citations for someone else's stuff than it is to cite your own. Anyway, I've removed Astley's tag, as it's clearly no longer without citations, thanks to you. --Malleus Fatuorum 01:29, 16 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Have added a couple of citations to Leigh. Will pop in and have a go at finding a few more over the next few days. Skinsmoke (talk) 00:36, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Tyldesley GAC
What do we think about a GAC for Tyldesley? --Jza84 | Talk  21:16, 18 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Why not? It certainly wouldn't be quickfailed, but I'm not fond of that list of schools, and I do think it still needs a bit of tidying up. Nothing that can't be fixed during a review though if necessary, I don't think. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:04, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Salford Docks
There's currently a proposal on talk:Salford Docks to move the page to Manchester Docks. I thought people might be interested. Nev1 (talk) 21:53, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Jon the Postman is at AfD
See Articles for deletion/Jon the Postman. Mr Stephen (talk) 17:55, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Lane End Primary School
I'm considering nominating this non-notable school for a third time at AFD, however I'd like people's opinions before I embarrass myself again. Generally, primary schools are not considered notable, and I don't see why this should be the exception. Its only "notable" feature is the fact it apparently received Grade 1 from Ofsted. This does not make it notable or special or anything. Other than the usual league tables and data you'd get for every school in the country, there is little to suggest this school is worth having an article.  Majorly  talk  18:10, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd stick some of that content into the Cheadle Hulme article. Parrot of Doom (talk) 18:15, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Like what?  Majorly  talk  18:17, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * (ec) About 40 years old and with an average class size of about 30, it seems like a fairly average school and the only thing that sets it out from the crowd is the "outstanding" rating from Ofsted. Does that make it notable? I can't find stats on the breakdown of "outstanding", "good", "satisfactory", and inadequate" schools, and while the outstanding should be in the minority, it's surely not enough.
 * There is the appearance of notability in the article, but two sources are league tables (not enough to confirm notability) and one is a prospectus, which hardly satisfies "third party reliable sources". This news story about a visiting MP adds nothing that the Ofsted report can't as it derives its importance from the report, and a visit from a local politician isn't notable; they do that that a lot with the good schools as publicity stunts (I don't remember Beverley Hughes visiting Stretford Grammar when it became the first grammar school in the UK to be put on special measure). The other references relate to what existed before the school and the date of its foundation. I think PoD makes a good point and the article could be merged and redirected to the education section of Cheadle Hulme. There's nothing here that is worth keeping and could not reasonably be integrated into another article; it could be briefly mentioned in the article, something like "Of Chesle Hulme's nine primary schools, Lane End – founded in 1967 – is the only one to have been assessed as "outstanding" by Ofted"; this would need confirmation, but I assume it's the only one from the MP fuss. In a way, it's a kind of content forking. Nev1 (talk) 18:38, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * After looking through the previous AfDs, the "outstanding" assessment appears to have been the critical element in ensuring the article's continued existence, so this should probably be addressed. Apparently 13% of primary schools are "outstanding" (I'm taking this figure from one of the second AfD, but don't know the original source), so are 13% of primary schools really notable? There's no guideline that states being "outstanding" automatically satisfies WP:N, and in fact I'd say that it's no more important in the context of general notability guidelines than any of the other ratings. All four are covered by Ofsted reports, not just the "outstanding" schools, so since they all have an equal amount of coverage they should all be equally notable/non-notable when just using the Ofsted reports for notability (which is what this article does). I don't think it can be practically argued that all primary schools are notable, but I could be swayed if presented with a good argument. Nev1 (talk) 18:57, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * AfD, definitely. That's just about as non-notable as a school can get. I think it would have to be a pretty exceptional primary school to warrant its own article, and I don't even see anything there worth merging to Cheadle Hulme. --Malleus Fatuorum 19:08, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks all. I nominated it here.  Majorly  talk  19:26, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Is there are wider question of whether the vast majority of Primary schools are notable? The only one that I can find within the project's school with something really notable mentioned in the article is St Winifred's Roman Catholic Primary School. A few more:
 * Werneth Primary School
 * St Cuthbert's Primary School
 * Sandilands Community Primary School
 * St John's CofE Primary School
 * I went to this school, so obviously its notable. ;) Parrot of Doom (talk) 21:29, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * St Chad's R.C Primary School
 * Green End Primary School
 * Beaver Road Primary School
 * Greenhill Primary School
 * Greenhill Primary School (Oldham)
 * St Pauls Crompton Street
 * St Ambrose Barlow
 * Peacefield Primary School
 * Lady Barn House School
 * Greave School
 * Cherry Manor Primary School
 * Flixton Junior School
 * Gorse Hill Primary School
 * Woodheys Primary School
 * Pit-yacker (talk) 21:04, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I went through this list and prodded most of them. Some looked like they were marginally notable, so we'll see when we'll see with those ones. Most however were stubs along the lines of "X is a primary school, and had x result from Ofsted". In general, I think primary schools are not notable. Certainly, they are not notable by the results they get from Ofsted. The primary school I went to doesn't have an article and doesn't warrant one either.  Majorly  talk  21:36, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Interesting debate. As usual, being a fence-sitter extraordinaire, I have no particular view on the overall primary-schools-notability debate (which appears to have been rumbling on for years), but I'll throw this in as an alternative.  My enthusiasm for writing stuff about Crawley is shared by Tafkam, who put together this attractively laid out list a while ago.  As you can see, it allows such encyclopaedic info as there is about the primary schools to be mentioned in a consistent format without the need to create individual articles of debatable notability, while still allowing any that are genuinely notable to have their own article and to appear alongside the others.  Now, while similar lists for each metropolitan borough would be somewhat larger than the example I've given here, the task would not be impossible (and yes, I would be happy to put in some spadework towards this :D).  Thoughts?   Hassocks  5489 (tickets please!)  21:58, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that's the way to go Hassocks, and we did start something along those lines with articles like List of schools in Trafford. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:01, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm, perhaps split up List of schools in Stockport? I was working on that list a while ago.  Majorly  talk  22:02, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * (ec) I agree, and all the boroughs have them (I think). For example: list of schools in Stockport. Nev1 (talk) 22:03, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * PS. All the list can be found here, although I'm not sure how complete they are. Nev1 (talk) 22:05, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The boroughs might be too big for the kind of list that Hassocks has in mind? I really like his attractively laid out list, I think something like that might satisfy everyone. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:06, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Scrub that, there's only about 70 or so in the Trafford list, for example. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:15, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, I do as well. However, I'm not sure how it could work for Stockport. Some neighbourhoods, for example, only have one school.  Majorly  talk  22:10, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It would be for the borough of Stockport though, an expanded and prettier version of this, for instance. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:13, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It just seems a bit big. There's over 100 schools in Stockport borough.  Majorly  talk  22:15, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * (Several e/cs) Aha – looks good – didn't realise we already had the structures set up. A bit of format-standardisation and some more refs, and we could really make some good headway.  I like the inclusion of OFSTED codes and website links: excellent ideas.  Coordinates and images are nice but not essential; the former are laborious to find (although I quite enjoy doing it!), and taking photos of schools could be misinterpreted these days.  I'll give it some thought and will add it to my theoretical in-tray, although I may not get much chance before October (long holiday coming up in Sept!).  As Malleus says, some boroughs could be a bit large for this to work properly: on the face of it, I'm surprised at just how many schools there are in many of the boroughs compared to the Crawley example (especially as it is often claimed to have a young age profile); but then I suppose centralised planning → efficiency of design → minimal duplication, or something like that...  Hassocks  5489 (tickets please!)  22:18, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * (ec) "... taking photos of schools could be misinterpreted these days". I was thinking exactly the same thing—probably something best done during the school holidays, when there are no kids around. The pictures do bring he list to life though. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:24, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * (ec_ The Crawley list is certainly very good and I think it would be worthwhile trying to emulate it (although Stockport may prove a challenge). Might it be useful to link to the latest Ofsted report for each school with its overall rating? This would be a pain to do and keep updated but might be useful to the reader. Or perhaps something on exam results? (%age A8–C GCSEs for secondary schools for example.)
 * Maybe separate lists for primary and secondary schools could be created to make numbers easier to handle? The primary school list would be larger though. Nev1 (talk) 22:22, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * (ec) I think the primary/secondary school split could work, although I think some special schools cater for the whole age range? (*unsure*) Not so sure about having to keep links to latest Ofsted reports updated though, it just wouldn't happen. Wit the Ofsted number though anyone who cares can find the latest report for themeslves. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:31, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Good point, providing the Ofsted number with a link would be more useful and easier for editors as it wouldn't require regular updates. Plus not all reports date from the same time so comparing them is problematic. Nev1 (talk) 22:44, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Would also steer clear of giving the Ofsted rating or exam results. The Ofsted rating is from a specific inspection, and these things change.  If not updated faithfully, the information could prove to be very misleading.  The same goes for examination results.  I'm sure someone from the school or a proud parent will be only too willing to update the details when they are favourable; bet it doesn't happen when it goes the other way though! Skinsmoke (talk) 02:35, 21 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Stockport are actually closing schools that don't get enough pupils, due to rising costs of maintaining all the separate schools that are nearly empty. Come September, some might be removed from the list. But not that many. And I agree with you about pics of schools. It would also require quite a bit of travelling around and could be difficult. I have uploaded some school pics before but they were for schools with articles.  Majorly  talk  22:30, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Might be lots of pics on geograph.co.uk though, haven't checked. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:33, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Sadly not, I had a look when I was working on the list. There might be now though, but I doubt it. It would be much easier for me to go out myself.  Majorly  talk  22:38, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Manchester Martyrs
As a bit of light relief (!) from the Moors murders I though I'd be brave and tackle one of our Irish articles. There are massive gaps in the story, and even some of the basic facts were wrong, like the date of their trial for instance. If the usual suspects turn up to try and turn this back into an Irish Republican manifesto then I may need some administrative help. If anyone else is feeling brave, you're more than welcome to come and help out too.

Their public execution on the wall of the jail was quite an event, attended by something like 10,000 spectators who were "well-supplied by the gin palaces of Deansgate". And to cap it all, the executioner miscalculated the drop needed for two of the men, one of whom took 45 minutes to die, as the priest wouldn't let the hangman pull on his legs to break his neck. --Malleus Fatuorum 18:44, 21 August 2009 (UTC)


 * It might be worth putting an "in use" tag on it if you plan to do large reconstruction work. If there are silly reverts etc, I will be happy to ask that the reverters kindly give you time and space to do the revamp first. It's a method that worked on the Nick Griffin page. Irish history in (Greater) Manchester is under-reported AFAICT. I imagine that by law of probability every one of us here has at least one great grandparent who was Irish. --Jza84 | Talk  22:17, 21 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Things are thankfully still quiet, and I'm planning on adding to the article incrementally, no major structural changes, just section by section. So far, so good. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:23, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Manchester Academy request
Could do with a new photo given it's been substantially altered. Anybody have one for free use/fancy taking one? -- Fursday 22:52, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I walk past that daily. I'll try to take a new photo of it next week. Mike Peel (talk) 20:59, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * THere's a discussion at Talk:Manchester Academy about whether information about acts who appeared at the Manchester Students Union before the Academy existed should be included in this article. Anyone else like to add their opinions? Richerman (talk) 12:36, 21 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm buying a new lens from just around the corner from there, next week. I'll experiment once I've got it. Parrot of Doom (talk) 14:25, 21 August 2009 (UTC)


 * User:Pit-yacker beat us both to taking a photo + uploading it (I took some on the 21st, but haven't had the time + internet connection to upload them until now...). I've created a new commons cat: commons:Category:Manchester Academy; I'll add more photos when there's better weather (which could be a while...). Mike Peel (talk) 22:41, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Images needed for List of civil parishes in Greater Manchester
I am working on upgrading List of civil parishes in Greater Manchester here, but have hit a problem finding suitable (or even unsuitable) images for three areas.

Can anyone upload any images of Offerton Park, Shevington or Worthington, or alternatively nip out and take a few? These are the only civil parishes or unparished areas in Greater Manchester without any images at all.

Haven't checked Geograph, but I haven't yet managed to fathom out how to upload from there and get the copyright tags right (if anyone would like to tutor me I could have a go). Skinsmoke (talk) 16:49, 22 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Noticed the updating just now. Some of the images are in need of swapping (Eccles cakes for Eccles as an example!), and some of the prose needs a trim and copyedit. There ought to be no more than four paragraphs in the lead (and I suspect we need only 2 for this one) per WP:LEAD. I'd also be inclined to say when and where those population figures are from and split the page into two lists - one for parishes, one for the unparished areas (although the inclusion of unparished areas takes it out of sync with the rest of England). --Jza84 | Talk  11:28, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Strangeways
During my research for Belle Vue Zoo I came across a reference to Gorton Gaol which was closed in 1888, and which I had no idea existed. As a result I wondered if anything was mentioned in the Strangeways article. Reading that article I realised that although it's not a bad article it's a bit of a hodge-podge more interested in the executions that were performed there, and woefully deficient of refs. It looks like a perfect article for resurrection by the historians amongst us. I'm also wondering if it should rate a bit higher than the mid-importance it's been rated on the Importance Scale given that it is actually quite an important icon of Manchester, not to mention on the local skyline. Just a suggestion anyway. -- Web H amster  21:14, 22 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I think that in general we (the GM project) have done pretty well with our geography stuff, although there are still glaring gaps like our poor coverage of areas like Wigan, at least until J3Mrs stepped up to the plate, but our historical coverage is pretty poor. We don't even have a decent article on the Ship Canal yet. Manchester was a hotbed of radicalism, a literary centre, so much more, but we haven't really got there yet. So much to do, so little time. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:37, 22 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The Strangeways article has bits which look like they're plagiarised from various places. It would be an interesting one to work on for certain... but there's so much I want to do. My problem is I find it difficult to concentrate on one thing, as another grabs my attention. Otherwise I'd be churning out much more content.  Majorly  talk  22:47, 22 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I think we probably all have that same problem Majorly. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:39, 22 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Lucky you mate, I'm buggered if I can concentrate on just one at the mo'! Though I have dragged my dusty Belle Vue Zoo books from the shelf in an effort to re-acquaint myself with the info. This is what prompted me to look at the above article in the first place. Though I do feel my loins girding for an attempt at a Gorton Gaol article. -- Web H amster  23:43, 22 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Salford Gaol is one that's in my mind. I've got some pretty lurid accounts of hangings there that didn't quite work out as planned; not for the squeamish though. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:48, 22 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I've come across Strangeways a few times, usually related to the River Irwell (lots of flooding around there), and also the New Bailey Prison at Salford. I think there may even have been a turnpike there at one point, the road past it certainly was a turnpike trust road. Parrot of Doom (talk) 14:52, 23 August 2009 (UTC)


 * After finding out a little more info I decided to create a stub for Belle Vue Gaol. Better to have a stub to get some historian's juices flowing than have nothing at all. When I have a chance later I'll try to fill it out a bit more. I was slightly surprised to find a couple of other articles mentioning it so I of course wikilinked them (after an editor added an orphan tag... a little too quickly in my view, but what the hell). Apparently the place was the personification of bureaucratic fuck-ups, both at the building stage and during the running of it. I have more info on that so will of course add it in due time... unless of course I get distracted by yet another meds-laden troll! -- Web H amster  17:13, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Hi all
Hi guys

I have had an extended break due to various problems with ISP, PC blowing up a cpl times, health and family losses but should be back again at least once a week until I have more time at the end of the month.

Is a primary school notable from the people that have been there ? For example Stephen Bennet (rocket man for the X-Prize) and famous scientists of note have come from my primary school in Dukinfield

Sorry for not contributing much over the past few months...Chaosdruid (talk) 08:05, 23 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd say no, famous alumni do not establish the notability of a school. After all, every famous person went to one school or another, usually at least two. --Malleus Fatuorum 14:42, 23 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Maybe.. I attended Manchester Central Grammar (as was) and there were numerous refs to Robert Donat... an old pupil and there was an annual award in his name. The last headmaster before it went comprehensive, Dr L P De La Perrell (sp)... always mentioned him and a couple of other old pupils that I can't remember.. so maybe something in famous alumni ? Geotek (talk) 01:45, 25 August 2009 (UTC)


 * For secondary schools perhaps, but for primary schools? --Malleus Fatuorum 02:30, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Schools again
I prodded a load of stub primary school articles that did not show any notability, but they were all removed without comment, so I have nominated them for deletion. The person who removed the prods was concerned I had not tried to engage any discussion about the issue, so I'd appreciate it if people could give their opinions on them. The list is here. Thanks,  Majorly  talk  00:15, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * How annoying, the prods expired tomorrow (27th). Most of them should be open and shut cases. Nev1 (talk) 00:18, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Wait, doesn't raising the issue here count as discussion? Nev1 (talk) 00:22, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I expect every school needs its own discussion. Which is ridiculous, considering a) The original author of at least one doesn't even edit anymore and b) The articles are barely watched, so talk page discussion would go nowhere. The only other place is here, or maybe the schools wikiproject - but I considered the ones I prodded so obviously non-notable, I didn't think a full-blown discussion on each one was necessary. Going straight from prod to AFD is commonplace.  Majorly  talk  00:24, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I could say something about due diligence of the editor who de-prodded the articles for not checking here... Nev1 (talk) 00:27, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Manchestergrad
I've no idea which article might benefit from this, but thought it worth mentioning... Parrot of Doom (talk) 16:52, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * History of Manchester? Manchester Blitz (in an aftermath section perhaps)? --Jza84 | Talk  17:03, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * (ec) I saw that in the paper yesterday and wondered if it would fit into any article. I think history of Manchester would be best as it's interesting but not an important detail. Nev1 (talk) 17:05, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not useable in any way, but I was a councillor in Stockport in the early eighties and remember the Council's Public Relations Department being stunned when the Soviet cultural attache presented himself one morning asking if he could buy a copy of the official street map. God help them if they were relying on it, it was packed with errors! Skinsmoke (talk) 23:36, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

How do I...............?
I have been writing a bit about the Parish Church of St George, Tyldesley. I'd like to link it to the WikiProject Greater Manchester but have no idea how to. I expect it's dead easy for the rest of you :)--J3Mrs (talk) 16:38, 1 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Yup. All you have to do is to transclude the WikiProject Greater Manchester template at the top of the talk page. I've done that for the Parish Church of St George, Tyldesley, so you can see how it's done for your next article. :-) --Malleus Fatuorum 16:45, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Malleus, I've already started on the next one :) ps I enjoyed the witchcraft articles, Tyldesley had its own witchcraft story. --J3Mrs (talk) 17:11, 1 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Did it? Surely you can't resist having a go at that. Lancashire is was very fertile ground for witches. :-) --Malleus Fatuorum 18:04, 1 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Still is mate, wink wink :) -- Web H  amster  18:14, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Relevant and interesting
Just noticed a new section at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_UK_geography, where User:Rodw mentions that there is a tool that can identify a project's most popular articles in terms of page views per month. Does anybody know what this tool is? Also, he raises a good point that members here may wish to discuss there. --Jza84 | Talk  10:33, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Tada Parrot of Doom (talk) 10:51, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks like that could be a very useful tool for us and highlight areas where are high quality is not reaching readers' favourites. --Jza84 | Talk  11:05, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * (ec) Here's the link to request the list. I think a GM list would probably be dominated by football players, which does raise the question of how relevant they are to the project. Those born within Greater Manchester may technically be within our scope, but is there much we can offer that the football project can't? Nev1 (talk) 11:06, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I would suggest, that the members of WP:GM who live in Greater Manchester would have better access to local sources about footballers born in the area than the members of WP:FOOTY would. I've had loads of trouble with articles about Man Utd because I haven't had access to a Manchester library. – PeeJay 11:40, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It looks too as if the tool generates a list of 500 articles. I suspect that would be enough to separate out any biography and sport related content if we felt that the right course of action. PeeJay2K3 makes a valid point too - for example, I know where Paul Scholes was raised, what school he went too, what team he supports and where he lives now in a way that the average Man U fan may not.... not that I'm stalking him... --Jza84 | Talk  12:41, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it would be reasonable for the project to include footballers like Scholes who were born in and play in the region, but not those passing through for a season or two at Man City or Utd. --Malleus Fatuorum 15:00, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Poking my nose in unwanted from the south, but I'd go further than Malleus's born-and-lived to include sporting figures who are widely associated with Manchester (Trautmann, Best, Beckham, Franny Lee etc). In light of current events, I suspect any "most read Manchester articles" list is going to be wildly skewed towards Oasis-cruft at the moment so won't give an accurate reading. –  iride  scent  15:22, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't object to that, and I was actually thinking of Beckham as I was writing. Trautmann is a pretty clear case as well, given his long association with Manchester City. --Malleus Fatuorum 15:27, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * On similar lines to Trautmann, I would say Cantona is an obvious choice. He may be French, and may have played for Leeds, but achieved iconic status in Manchester. Skinsmoke (talk) 19:45, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * And apparently there's some grumpy old Scottish bloke... – iride  scent  14:55, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I can think of several grumpy old Scottish blokes, but I think I know which one you mean. Skinsmoke (talk) 15:43, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Kersal Massive - again
I see someone is trying to get Kersal Massive back on the Kersal page again, putting those foul mouthed little scrotes in the Notable residents section. I found this Guardian article about them. As this is a recurring problem, should we perhaps give them a brief mention for gaining their 15 minutes of fame for their "awe-inspiring ineptitude" or is that just adding fuel to the fire? Richerman (talk)
 * computer says no Parrot of Doom (talk) 11:00, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


 * "The person has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in his or her specific field" Surely they'll go down in history as the most inept rappers ever - or maybe there's worse to come? Richerman (talk) 11:10, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I think the only 'going down' will likely be to HMP Strangeways :) Parrot of Doom (talk) 12:10, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately in the circles they move in that would give them more notability. Richerman (talk) 12:28, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Audenshaw School
Audenshaw School is in the news (, and even in Africa ) and is likely to stay that way for a while. Audenshaw and Denton may also recieve high page view counts too. Might be worth doing a quick improvement drive while we can and show off our skills? --Jza84 | Talk  20:20, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * A relatively interesting school article for once. Why is that they all call the headmaster "Mr"? That's fine if you're a pupil at the school, but not writing an article about it. --Malleus Fatuorum 20:38, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * No, I think Mr should go, preferably to be replaced by a first name. The Audenshaw article is dreadful, barely more than a stub (the school's article is longer!), but Denton is a least developed (although needs some clean up) so should be the lowest priority of the three articles. I'll dig around and see what I can find about the school since that will be the article that sees the most traffic. Nev1 (talk) 20:54, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks - seeing as though I raised it, I'll be helping out too where I can! :) --Jza84 | Talk  20:59, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I just found out most of the history section is a copyright violation from the school's website. Nev1 (talk) 21:18, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Unless of course the website simply copied Wikipedia. Parrot of Doom (talk) 21:46, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Doubtful. A pupil or the person who wrote it for the school probably copied it over to wikipedia. Either way it could do with a rewrite as it's not great. Nev1 (talk) 21:50, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

It's been given a substantial rewrite and now includes the details of the planned "massacre", but I'm concerned about potential BLP issues (also with the teacher/student sex trial) so I'm not sure if it needs to be trimmed. Nev1 (talk) 22:55, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * That's got to be one of the most interest (UK) school articles I've seen! I think the sex trial thing is OK as it stands, but it's obviously something that needs to have an eye kept on it. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:05, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Wish I'd have gone there! Does sound like it's had a rough ride in the last few years.


 * I've been looking for a photo of the school from flickr or geograph, but had no luck so far. --Jza84 | Talk  23:06, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I was intrigued by the "inappropriate content for younger pupils" in the school magazine. What the Hell do they get up to in Audenshaw? --Malleus Fatuorum 23:10, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Strewth! It makes Waterloo Road look like a kindergaten! Skinsmoke (talk) 23:29, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Ha ha! Maybe we should put "See also: Waterloo Road (TV series)"? :P --Jza84 | Talk  23:33, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Caution: school is not suitable for minors. Nev1 (talk) 23:53, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Surely this Waterloo Road article is a hoax? I've never even heard of the programme, much less seen it. To be fair though I do try to avoid all soaps, so I'll defer to the better judgement of those less prejudiced. :lol: --Malleus Fatuorum 00:46, 3 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Perhaps one day the original magazine will fetch as much as The schoolkids issue of Oz :) Richerman (talk) 12:44, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Has anyone got anything interesting to say about Audenshaw? After adding demography and economy sections and a little on governance, the article has undergone a 5x expansion so is eligible for DYK. The only problem is, there's nothing interesting the fairly generic stuff I've added and the stuff from the school probably shouldn't be on the front page; it probably shouldn't be in the Audenshaw article either. There might be something here, or perhaps the derivation of the name would be worthwhile ("from Aldwin, a Saxon name, and the Old English shagh meaning a wood") but only because shagh might catch the eye. Nev1 (talk) 17:47, 3 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Haven't quite got round to that page yet, but I imagine something to do with the reservoirs is likely to be our only chance at a hook. --Jza84 | Talk  17:54, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Have to agree - the reservoirs were quite central to Ind Rev. Also we have Creator of Dan Dare - [], One of Englands best RU captains [] - Audenshaw grammar and Mick Hucknell - Audenshaw Grammar also


 * How about, Did you know that Audenshaw is home to Audenshaw School where Mick Hucknall was educated and which was the alleged target of a plot to recreate the Columbine High School Massacre? That gets in links to three GM articles Richerman (talk) 09:47, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Doesn't the Nico Ditch run partly under those reservoirs? Parrot of Doom (talk) 10:15, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Well remembered, I'll add that to the Audenshaw article now. Nev1 (talk) 10:18, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Oops sorry, I got carried away and missed the bit about the school not being on the front page or in the article. Richerman (talk) 10:25, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The hook you suggested is interesting, but the info would need to be in the Audenshaw article and I'm concerned about possible bias towards recent events. In fairness, the school was notable before this week and while I'm happy to include the info in the Audenshaw School article, but does it belong in the Audenshaw article? Nev1 (talk) 10:39, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I've nominated Audenshaw at DYK. I went for the reservoir angle rather than the school and here's the hook:
 * ... that in Audenshaw (pictured), Greater Manchester, part of the village, and a section of an ancient ditch that according to folklore was the site of a bloody battle between Saxons and Vikings, was destroyed in the 19th century by the construction of Audenshaw Reservoirs?

Hopefully it sounds interesting. If anyone thinks there's a better hook, or that the current one could be phrased feel free to do something at Template talk:Did you know. I doubt the image will be used as it's not very clear at 100px, but I thought it was worth a try. Nev1 (talk) 13:00, 8 September 2009 (UTC)