Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Gymnastics/Archive 2

Major competitions and medal records for athletes
Since WP:NGYMNASTICS does not mention the most desirable way medals must be credited and displayed on Wikipedia articles, I would like to know from members of this project what competitions could be considered major competitions in Artistic Gymnastics. A second question would be what medals are actually relevant to be displayed on the athletes' medal records. Should we display all the medals they have won in National meets as well as medals won at the Olympic Games? What about World Cup stages? Take, for example, gymnast Diego Hypólito. He has won over 55 medals in World Cup stages. If we are to credit all these medals on the medal record, it could potentially cause formatting problems when reading the full article. There is a tentative attempt of listing what competitions are major Artistic Gymnastics meets on List of gymnastics competitions, but due to my lack of experience in using Talk pages, that list was created by me without asking for consensus here, and I apologize for that. Besides, WP:NGYMNASTICS is clearly outdated and it was created to cover only Women's Artistic Gymnastics. In Men's Artistic Gymnastics, Japan is a major country, and it is not even mentioned there. Also, it does nothing for Trampoline Gymnastics, Aerobic Gymnastics, Acrobatic Gymnastics and Rhythmic Gymnastics. I believe it should be revised and updated in order to include the other disciplines. ThiagoSimoes (talk) 00:30, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
 * World cup wins should NOT be added, there can be an extra section in the article for that. What should be added to the medaltemplates parameter in the infobox: Olympics, World Championships and the Continental Championships. Kante4 (talk) 15:20, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, I feel that any competition deemed worthy enough to be included as a 'major competition' should be added but not smaller, international competitions. Theworldgymnast1 (talk) 17:23, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
 * The infobox should only include medals from major international competitions. In my opinion, the list should be: Olympic Games, World Championships, Pan American Games, Asian Games, Commonwealth Games, European Championships, and Pacific Rim Championships. World Cup events are not major competitions and should not be in the infobox. - PM800 (talk) 18:43, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
 * This is pretty much what I believe should be done. But no Summer Universiade medals, then? Also, should not the Youth Olympic Games and the European Games be mentioned as well? The YOG is the only truly global competition for junior gymnasts and the European Games will probably acquire the same status as the Pan American Games and the Asian Games as the top multi-sport event in Europe. ThiagoSimoes (talk) 20:15, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
 * The Universiade is OK. The Youth Olympic Games, no. There's an age restriction, it's only been held twice, and most importantly, it hasn't attracted the best eligible gymnasts. Since the European Games hasn't happened yet, we can wait and add that later. - PM800 (talk) 04:57, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree with everything you have written, except that the YOG does not attract the best eligible gymnasts. I think that the age limit should be broadened to 14-15 years old instead of just 15 years old for girls, but so far every single country has sent the best eligible athletes they could send. The single exception is the United States, and I agree that the competition would have benefited a lot more if the US had sent girls to compete in Artistic Gymnastics, but remember that it took a long time for China to send athletes to the Olympic Games as well. The only competition I am not so sure we should label as major is the CWG. I know it has a lot of media coverage, and that the countries send their best athletes to compete, but if we take into consideration recent results (especially Women's Balance Beam final in 2010), I have a hard time saying it is on the same level as the Pan American Games or the Asian Games, actually. ThiagoSimoes (talk) 18:27, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Agreed - the Youth Olympic Games gymnasts generally are among the best whom the participating countries are able to send for most countries participating. Commonwealth Games is a primary major sporting event both within and outside of gymnastics for athletes in the Commonwealth, with the top athletes from the represented countries competing in the sport, and perhaps deserves inclusion. Of course unexpected results or earning of medals by seemingly less strong athletes can happen at any competition, including even the World Championships and the Olympic Games, but that does not demote a competition's status from major world competition to minor or less important competition. Summer Universade is also a major international competition that perhaps deserves inclusion. --Shruti14 talk • sign 02:49, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
 * You know, I used to think that World Cup medals should be included in the medaltemplate. However, the more I think about the limited coverage of these meets even within the community and how the biggest names don't typically participate - the more I realize that these events aren't hugely important. Typically gymnastics federations send younger and less experienced girls to these events. I have never believed that one World Cup medal is enough to make you notable. I also believe that medals from Domestic meets and small international competitions should NOT be included. I also agree with you that coverage on the other disciplines is in need of significant improvement. --Riley1012 (talk) 01:31, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree World Cup medals should not be accounted for medal template, neither domestic ones. But what about, not games, but championships: like this deleted content from the asian and pan american medals from the 2015 medal purge? Another item we should consider is regional games. Should we include anything below Continental Games at Template:Multi-sport events? Should this considerations affect WP:NGYMNASTICS? --Osplace 03:46, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
 * 1) Let me explain why I have made those changes. While it is a commendable effort for gymnasts from Singapore and Dominican Republic to compete internationally and win medals, it should be noted that traditionally the continental championships do not attract the best gymnasts in the continent. Not only that, but in some editions, major countries may decide to not even send any athlete at all. This is true for China in 2008, for example. On the other hand, historically, as far as I know, major countries have never skipped continental games, such as the Pan American Games or the Asian Games, so even if they do not always send all of their top athletes to the continental games, they never skip it altogether like they do sometimes with the continental championships. 2) I have to say I was on the fence about asking whether subcontinental multi-sport events should be considered or not. There are quite a few of them, such as the Central American and Caribbean Games, South American Games, Southeast Asian (SEA) Games or the Mediterranean Games. If I have to vote, I will say no. Subcontinental championships also suffer from the very same problem continental championships usually suffer: some of the best countries may skip the championships entirely. In 2014, Brazil did not take part in the South American championships due to it being at the very end of the season. 3) Lastly, It is important to note that once a consensus is reached, we should edit the list of major competitions at List of gymnastics competitions and we should start a discussion about updating WP:NGYMNASTICS soon afterwards. ThiagoSimoes (talk) 14:22, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
 * World Cup should be optional - these are FIG official events and for many of the athletes, winning medals at these events is very significant. Obviously for someone like Chusovitina who has 10,000 World Cup medals, it is not as important, but it should be an option. Additionally, as for the comment that World Cups are not well attended, this is not true for the men. Almost every World Cup has a very strong men's roster with very competitive fields. As for 's comment about continental events not being well-attended... this is not true at all. 2008 was an off year because of the Olympics and the athletes needed a break. Injuries notwithstanding, Europeans always attracts the top gymnasts, Asian Games always has a very, very strong field and except for the Americans, the Pan Am Games typically see every nation's A-team. Additionally, in 2007, when Pan Ams did not conflict with worlds, the US sent its strongest female gymnasts (Liukin, Johnson, Peszek, Bross etc). South American championships are a different situation, because they typically attract a lot of drama. Due to China's regional dominance, they typically send a young team to Asian Championships for experience. Anyway Wikipedia must retain a GLOBAL viewpoint, so to say it's a "commendable effort" for gymnasts from smaller countries to win World Cup medals is rather biased IMO: we must consider their point of view as well.  :-D  —Мандичка YO 😜 00:54, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Hello, World Cups may not that be important in Artistic Gymnastics, as representative of the RG page, pls do not edit or remove any of the World Cup medals of the rhythmic gymnastic athletes

Yappers1000 (talk) 1:40, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the reply. Did you see that I menioned that continental championships are different from continental games? The European Championships are very strong, but Pan American and Asian Championships are usually not. Pan American and Asian Games on the other hand, are very relevant. -- ThiagoSimoes (talk) 04:15, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, Continental Championships and Games are different, but both of them relevant. I strongly support User:Wikimandia point of view on Continental Championships and World Cups. Being optional is better. I am asking myself if we need to cover Regional Games on Wikipedia, as we do on WikiProject Multi-sport events. Maybe we should, but only if major and well known competitors decided to take part... Yes, probably Larisa Iordache would not need the World Cup medals to be displayed, but for gymnasts from Singapore and Dominican Republic that should mean a lot! Since WP:NGYMNASTICS provide a definition on what an elite international competition is, is imperative to change this. This was changed without consensus. World cup medals should be included in that list. Osplace 04:19, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
 * If we decide that World Cup medals are optional, this could potentially open up possibilities for people to edit the articles based on what they think would look good on the medal record, and this takes me back to one of the original problems: should we really add fifty-eight different medals for Diego Hypólito at World Cup events only because it could be possible to do so? I believe that it is very important to have diversity in gymnastics, but we must remember that we are discussing about major achievements in the sport as a whole. Gymnasts from Singapore also participate at the Commonwealth Games, and gymnasts from Dominican Republic can go to the Pan American Games, so while it is important for them to compete and win medals at the World Cup stage, we should be very careful not to make every competition artificially major. -- ThiagoSimoes (talk) 10:25, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks - I think we are pretty safe with the basic multi-sport events (European Games, Asian Games, Pan Ams, African Games, maybe Maccabean Games) plus the various continental championships. I would not put in territorial competitions that are not continental (eg Pacific Rim, Games of the Small States of Europe, Northern Europeans, Caribbean Games, etc). We should encourage people to use the body of the article to describe those. I've seen some tennis profiles where it's basically nothing but tables of match results, with no biography, and I don't think it looks good. At the same time I would hate to see articles get tagged for deletion for lack of notability because it's not immediately clear that the gymnast is competing at the international level, so for this I think it's better to be flexible 😜 than to be too strict.  —Мандичка YO 😜 04:40, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
 * It is clear to me by now that we should be making attempts at defining the notability of competitions based on each discipline. For example, while the Commonwealth Games is a notable competition in Artistic Gymnastics, it should not be considered a notable competition in Rhythmic Gymnastics. The problem is that we are trying to come up with one single solution for five different disciplines (six if you count Men's and Women's Artistic Gymnastics separately), and we are missing the whole picture more often than not. Nevertheless, the Maccabiah Games are a big no in my book when it comes to gymnastics competitions (even though Olympic champions Aly Raisman competed in one of the editions, the level is much lower than any of the World Cup stages throughout the year). Similarly, the All-Africa Games are also hardly comparable to other multi-sport games when it comes to gymnastics events. -- ThiagoSimoes (talk) 10:25, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Since we are talking about the use of Template:Medal in major competitions, I would like to recall that this template is intended " to list an athlete or sportsperson's major medals at the top of their respective biography article, alongside the lead section." The example includes, since the creation of the template, for example, Commonwealth Games and other competitions, let's say specialized. want us to skip the creation, for example, of Gymnastics at the 2014 Commonwealth Games, we should not create this article because he thinks is not a major competition, and should not be created. This mean that we should take all the Commonwealth Games medals of Max Whitlock and just mention his participation in the body. And yes, I do regulary add text to atletes body and this is ecoraged. But, should we include those results? Should we include Gymnastics at the 2014 Pan American Sports Festival medals? As a GA, Usain Bolt's medal template includes some results that are being rejected here. Are we a part of Wikipedia? Are we creating a higher standard, so high that any other discipline have never ever reached and so high that we are setting a new standard that they must follow from now on? Yes, because need to stay in the ground, a type of medal have to be displayed or not. WP:NGYMNASTICS needs to be re-written. My vote is, include World Cup, Commowealth and likes in WP:NGYMNASTICS in the list of Elite Competitions. Please, stay WikiProject Gymnastics close to rest of Wikipedia. Osplace 17:22, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
 * This is not the first time you attempt to counter my arguments with irony, which is ironical in itself since so far you have absolutely not displayed comprehensive knowledge about gymnastics at all. It is interesting that you come here saying bold statements but fails at using gymnasts as examples for what you are saying. Should we all go back in time and add track and field events to gymnastics competitions again, so that we could compare gymnasts to Usain Bolt in order to please ? The question about major gymnastics competitions was made because we should reach a consensus about what to add to the infobox, and it seems like we are not even close to that by now. Anyway, I have to make some things clear once again: 1) I said that I was not sure about considering the CWG a major competition, but it clearly indicates that I wanted to hear from other people what they think on the subject. It should be clear by now that after no one backed up my claims, people consider it a major competition. I was merely giving my impressions on the competition, and I never cemented my statements in stone; 2) I respect your point of view, but very few people here consider the World Cup events to be major events; 3) Once again, you have to have a solid knowledge about the sport not to consider some competitions artifically major only because they are international competitions. What works for some sports do not necessarily work for other sports. I would even say that what works for one gymnastics discipline does not work for other gymnastics disciplines! While the CWG could be considered major for Artistic Gymnastics, I would be baffled if people considered it to be major for Rhythmic Gymnastics, for example. Of course, this is open for debate. However, we should not update WP:NGYMNASTICS before reaching a consensus here. -- ThiagoSimoes (talk) 21:46, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I forgot to mention that I strongly oppose 's statement that both Continental Games and Championships are equally important. Yes, the European Championships are extremely important in all five disciplines, but the same thing cannot be said about every other continental championships. China, more often than not, decides not to send any athletes to the Artistic and Trampoline Asian Championships, which could severelly affect the status of these competitions as major events. I will start a new section in which people can vote on major competitions according to each discipline, so we can reach a consensus faster, hopefully. -- ThiagoSimoes (talk) 22:00, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
 * In my previous statement I have mentioned Usain Bolt because it is a GA article, and displays CWG medals. I am asking why are CGS medals important differently for any given sport. Is not Max Whitlock a gymnast? Adding track and field events to gymnast made not sense at all and I do not know were it came from. I would like to know something important, getting apart from nonsense, would it be ok to even cover here on wikipedia those tournaments not considered major? Osplace 14:40, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Track and Field events were part of Artitic Gymnastics competitions in the first decades of the 20th century. This is why I made the comment about it. -- ThiagoSimoes (talk) 21:59, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
 * If an event is prestigious, it is prestigious; whether or not the CWG/Pan Am Games rhythmic field is competitive for RSG on a whole is not relevant: through these large, multi-sport games, athletes receive significant media coverage, notability, and of course, funding and scholarships for training. The Olympic Committees for these countries are all incredibly competitive when it comes to the medal count. It is entirely too complicated to have to go through each event and decide whether or not it "counts" as being important overall; seriously, by this standard, the rhythmic gymnastics competition at the 1984 Olympic Games would completely fail. FYI Maccabiah is not that prestigious, although it does have some good people occasionally; I just mentioned it as an example. (Raisman never competed at Maccabiah.) Anyway please try to look at the big picture - let's make the infobox guidelines simple and spend our time working on actual articles and expanding the quality of gymnastics on Wikipedia.  —Мандичка YO 😜 15:11, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
 * But the whole point is to keep it simple! Instead, what you propose is that we should leave it to editors to decide what should be added and what should not be added, which is exactly what got this whole discussion started since instead of adding or deleting what I wanted, I was advised that I should ask for other editors to reach a consensus on the subject. The infobox should look simple. I believe the medals template was created so we could easily have access to the biggest and most important achievements in the career of each athlete. made a simple yet effective statement: "What should be added to the medaltemplates parameter in the infobox: Olympics, World Championships and the Continental Championships." Should we go back to this, instead? And should we treat Continental Championships and Continental Games as the same thing as  proposed before? If this is the case, I can make a compromise and live with that. Olympic medals (Summer/Youth), World Championships medals and Continental Championships/Games medals is good enough for me. -- ThiagoSimoes (talk) 21:59, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
 * having to analyze each discipline within an event (eg rhythmic is not notable at the Commonwealth Games but artistic is) or arguing that continental games are important but not continental championships is not keeping it simple. Olympics, worlds and continental games/championships plus all FIG events are a good guideline. —Мандичка YO 😜 07:34, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
 * This takes us back to the problem of considering that World Cup events are major competitions, something that is not supported by the most of the users who took their time to join this discussion, myself included. -- ThiagoSimoes (talk) 10:11, 5 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment - FYI, I noted some time ago that several editors are adding NCAA 1st, 2nd and 3rd-place finishes to infobox medals tables as if these were actual medals received. This raises two issues: (1) whether the NCAA championships qualify for inclusion in the medals table (I think not), and (2) whether non-medal competitions should be included in the infobox medals table (I oppose this too).  Personally, I say no to both.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:46, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Voting
Please, use this space exclusively to vote on what competitions you consider to be major competitions according to each one of the five gymnastics disciplines. In order to be considered a major competition, I believe we should agree that the event must be mentioned on this section by at least ten different users. Please, do not use this space for further discussions on the subject. Here are my choices:
 * Artistic: Olympic Games, World Championships, European Championships, Commonwealth Games, Pan American Games, Asian Games, Youth Olympic Games, Summer Universiade, Pacific Rim Championships.
 * Rhythmic: Olympic Games, World Championships, European Championships, Grand Prix Final, World Games, Pan American Games, Asian Games, Youth Olympic Games, Summer Universiade.
 * Trampoline: Olympic Games, World Championships, European Championships, Asian Games, Asian Gymnastics Championships, Pacific Rim Championships, Pan American Games, World Games, Youth Olympic Games, Pan American Championships.
 * Aerobic: World Championships, European Championships, World Games.
 * Acrobatic: World Championships, European Championships, World Games. ThiagoSimoes (talk) 22:22, 3 May 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what we are voting on.... Is this for the discussion in the article, or just the infobox/medal table? If so then basically everything except for invitationals (eg Massilia, WOGA, Jesolo, Voronin, etc) and dual/tri meets (eg FRA vs ROM). National medals (except junior). I don't have a problem with Chusovitina or Hypolito and their 250 medals - it's quite easy to toggle the tables to hide/display on/off, and overall there are probably only a handful of gymnasts who fall in this category. I think we can trust editors to use their best judgement when it comes to very detailed medal results... if someone wants to research every single World Cup medal Jordan Jovtchev won, then more power to them. Also, 10 different users? I don't think there are 10 even active members of this wikiproject. This should not be so complicated. —Мандичка YO 😜 16:29, 4 May 2015 (UTC)


 * For the article itself: I vote for all international events and major national events at junior and senior level (at least) being included. For the infobox medal table only: I vote for all except for (maybe) Youth Olympics plus National Championships being included. I concur that World Cups need not be included in the inbox medal table but they do have their place in the article. --Shruti14 talk • sign 02:57, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

About infoboxes and medals (again)
The previous discussion could not result in consensus, so I am bringing the subject up for discussion again. This time I hope to provide a much simpler solution. Some time ago, I was reading a talk page about the way medals should be displayed, and one user came up with the idea of the infobox only showing up to seven international competitions. I believe this is a simple solution for us to take care of this issue, since we would not have to judge if a competition is major or not unless the athlete has won medals in seven or more international meets, but even so we could use the list of gymnastics competitions as a guideline. This works very well for the article about gymnast Anna Bessonova, for example. I would like to hear from other people what they think about this idea. Remember that national championships and NCAA results would not be allowed. I think that junior competitions (except maybe for the Youth Olympic Games) should also not be part of the infobox. What do you all think? -- ThiagoSimoes (talk) 01:11, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Agree on National Champiships, NCAA and Junior competitions. There is just a few athletes that surpasses the seven competition proposed rule, but anyway I do not agree. Exactly because just a few of them exceed the seven international competition proposition, the reader should be aware of all awarded medals, remember this is going to be the exception. Osplace 03:24, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

NOTICE: Persondata has been officially deprecated
Persondata has been deprecated and the template and input data are subject to removal from all bio articles in the near future. For those editors who entered accurate data into the persondata templates of Olympic athletes and other bio subjects, you are advised to manually transfer that data to Wikidata before the impending mass deletion occurs in order to preserve accurate data. Here are three examples of Wikidata for notable swimmers: Ryan Lochte, Mary Wayte and Dara Torres. If you have any more questions about the persondata removal, Wikidata, etc., please ping me. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:55, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
 * A little more work to do...Osplace 22:30, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Rhythmics World Cup Finals
According to this document (1) the World Cup Finals event was terminated after 2008. Accordig to wiki ativity, medals won at World Cup stages are not be mentioned in the medal record. Still, in many biographies from rhythmic gymnasts, they mention the medals earned at the very last World Cup stages of each year after 2008 as World Cup Finals medals. Now, I know World Cup stages are much more prestigious in Rhythmic Gymnastics than they are in Artistic Gymnastics, but these medals are credited to the gymnasts in a wrong manner, and I believe they should be removed from the medal record. ThiagoSimoes (talk) 14:14, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
 * According to the FIG World Ranking List, every World Cup Stage is valued the same. There is not World Cup Finals, just stages and WCH. If FIG, actually take into consideration stages for their ranking, how is not important for us and show those medals? Why are you so mad with those medals, there is just a couple of athletes who will display most, but for most of the articles this is not true. We should change the name of the competition, because is not longer "Finals", but let them stay. Osplace 00:54, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
 * The original purpose for the medal record was to include medals from the Olympic Games, World Championships and Continental Championships. It was supposed to be a simple and effective way to list the major achievements of the athletes in major competitions. All the other medals could be displayed in a different section in the article. The lack of focus in this wiki Project basically defeats the original purpose of the medal record, since we are allowing the medal record to display medals that were not originally supposed to be listed there. To be honest, this issue must be thoroughly discussed in other wiki spaces as well, since we had a lengthy discussion about this matter here that unfortunately led nowhere. Maybe Template:Medal should be a good place to start. I am all in for diversity in Gymnastics (to the point I spend two years of my life searching for missing information on all of the World Gymnastics Championships so that I could update this article with the complete medal table), but we should respect the purpose of the template instead of doing whatever we want to it. ThiagoSimoes (talk) 03:55, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Agree. We should get more people involved.Osplace 12:18, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
 * But according my investigations, you are not right about the original intentions were only major competitions. Osplace 13:16, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you for clearing that up. This changes the way I see medal tables now and everything is starting to make sense. So, there are more templates than I had previously thought, including templates for the Commonwealth Games and the now defunct Goodwill Games. The MedalTableTop template, however, is used for teams or in a section in a given article (take Michael Phelps, which is marked as a good article, for example). I suspect there are not any major differences between the usage of the MedalTableTop and Medal templates. Now, with this new information and after the discussions we have had here, I believe it is feasible for me to propose that wed update the guidelines in WikiProject Gymnastics to exclude mentioning in the medal record national, invitational and junior tournaments in Gymnastics (except the Youth Olympic Games, and the World Junior Championships if we ever get to see one in the future), as well as multi-stage events, what potentially excludes World Cup meets (except the World Cup final), but something that is already in use nowadays and is fully supported by the majority of people who have commented on here. These changes have been suggested before here and I think we can say we have achieved consensus on that. Thanks to the discussions conducted here I think we now have a clear vision about what could be the best possible format for the medal tables. I will eventually take the discussion to the Template:Medal talk page as well, but thanks to everybody giving important feedback here I think I can make my point much more clearly. ThiagoSimoes (talk) 18:19, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
 * You are welcome. MedalTableTop, Medal they are all related and such template as GWG are deprecated items in favor of the newer unified version: Template:Medal. Osplace 16:09, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

New Article
Hi everyone,

This is not my usual topic of expertise but I created a basic article on the National Aerobic Championships. If anyone has any knowledge in Aerobic Gymnastics please help me expand it. The 1986-1999 competitions are on youtube. Can I use youtube videos of the competition as sources? Thanks -Rainbowofpeace (talk) 03:15, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Stretching Help
Hello! I've never done gymnastics but I would like to find an exercise routine to try. If I'm not in the right place for that please tell me. If I am, please tell me:) THANKS! Claire Anemone Claire Anemone (talk) 22:14, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Chin-up and Pull-up
The naming of Chin-up and the existence of Pull-up (exercise) is under discussion, see Talk:Chin-up -- 70.51.44.60 (talk) 06:14, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Need help with rename
I have requested a rename from Sport Aerobics to Aerobic Gymnastics. I have waited for a few days for a response and haven't got any. Can an administrator please change the article name? Thank you-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 00:01, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Ok I posted it on the talkpage and here and no one has responded. Will an administrator please help me complete the rename. It would be greatly appreciated. Thanks :)-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 22:56, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Any volunteer for an update?
Artistic gymnastics, gymnastics or/and other articles need an update on the following points, and I doubt I'll make time for that any time soon. The material is fun and has concise sources - just needs a bit of time for a smooth integration into the article(s), as some bits may exist in daughter pages:
 * "Both male and female gymnasts are judged on all events" - no, they may compete in individual events now.
 * Add history from reflecting the wide variety of events that were included in early gymnastics competitions up to 1950s. Materialscientist (talk) 01:44, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Notability
Please see my propose for expanding the notability guideliness. See: Wikipedia talk:Notability (sports). Thanks Sander.v.Ginkel (Talk) 17:40, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

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16,000 BLPs moving out of mainspace
Hi. Some of you will be aware of an ongoing issue of BLP articles created by Sander.v.Ginkel. The background at ANI can be found here. The discussion on the cleanup can be found here. In short, 16,000 BLP articles are being moved out of the mainspace to draftspace. This has already started following a Bot Approval. This should be complete in the next 48hrs or so. Articles will remain in draft for 90 days. In that time, they can be checked, and if OK, moved back to the mainspace. Anything not checked after 90 days will be deleted automatically.

So how can you help? The BLPs are broken down by occupational area. If an one of these interests you, please help. Even if it is checking one article. Check the article that has been moved to draft that a) it meets the notability requirement of the occupational area in question and b) that the facts in the article are supported by the sources. This includes, but is not limited to, the dates of birth, who they represented, when they were active, etc. If there are elements that can not be supported by the sources, they must be removed. If you are happy with the article, then move it back into the mainspace. DO NOT move anything until you have checked the sources, or supplied other reliable sources to support information in the article that may not already be cited. More information can be found here.

This is not going to be an easy task. I don't think there's too much support to check 16,000+ articles and I suspect that most of them will be gone after 90 days. If you have any questions, please raise them here. Thanks.  Lugnuts  Precious bodily fluids 11:48, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

RFC on sports notability
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Discussion at NSPORTS
Hello all. In an effort to finally resolve the never-ending and annoying GNG v SSG issue, I've proposed a revision of the NSPORTS introduction. You are all invited to take part in the discussion. Thank you. Jack &#124; talk page 06:20, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Highest scores list
I noticed there isn't much (almost any) information on best scores on each apparatus, which is kind of weird because it's obviously kept track of (everyone was making a fuss about epke's highest score ever on any apparatus and subsequently h.bar). I know my country's federation keeps track of national highest scores so it's not something irrelevant.

Unfortunately I don't know where to look (even though I tried), so I want to propose that top3/top5 lists (I think no more is needed because differences in scores are too small) are made for each apparatus in artistic gymnastic, trampoline (individual and sincro), double mini and tumbling and rhythmic gymnastic (there are 5 apparatuses and NO apparatus event - I think one (longer) list of highest scores regardless of apparatus would be sufficient) and for allround in artistic and rhythmic gymnastic. 213.149.61.252 (talk) 17:47, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

WikiProject collaboration notice from the Portals WikiProject
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Thank you. &mdash; The Transhumanist  07:40, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Reliable sources discussion
What are people using as reliable sources? I'd like to discuss it, learn from each other. Also, I might synthesize the discussion and put on the project page, if worthwhile.

You need a classicist - an expert on Ancient Greece for preference - who can correct the numerous wildly wrong assertions that even I can see in the History section; the Ancient Greece sub-section. Let me illustrate:

"History

Gymnastics developed in ancient Greece, in Sparta and Athens, and was used as method to prepare men for warfare. [More boys than men. The men might pay to come in and exercise but they had already been trained for war. I do not recall any exercises in the curriculum of the gymnasia in Athens, say, that could be called what we mean by the word ‘gymnastics’. And there was certainly preparation for war, and indeed, little else. Pyrrhic or warlike dance was used as a rehearsal for fighting with shield and spear, athletic exercises to strengthen the muscles took place, wrestling was a large part of the curriculum where aggression was encouraged.]

In Sparta, among the activities introduced into the training program was the Agoge or exhibition gymnastics [No. Not at all. The Spartan Agoge is not a word that describes exhibition dancing. It was the entire way of life for Spartiate boys from seven years of age to adulthood.] made up of gymnastic elements in the form of the Pyrrhic-a dance in a military style-performed for state dignitaries in the final year of a student's training. [I do not recall Pyrrhic dances as forming any part of the Spartan Agoge. In Athens, yes.] The maneuvers were performed naked [The word gymnasium comes from the Ancient Greek ‘gumnos’ meaning naked. All associated words include the ‘naked’ root.]except for the tools of war. Athens combined this more physical training with education of the mind. At the Palestra [palaestra, surely? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palaestra], a physical education training center [No. This was a fight school], the discipline of educating the body and educating the mind [That cost extra unless Socrates took you on. Private tutors 'sophists' could be hired. The general curriculum for the sons of citizens was just militia training.] were combined allowing for a form of gymnastics that was more aesthetic and individual and which left behind the form that focused on strictness, discipline, the emphasis on defeating records, and focus on strength [This is way out of line. If you visited a gymnasium or a palaestra what you would be looking at would be the Defence Budget of the City in action, getting spent.].[4]

“Gymnastics was first introduced in Ancient Greek civilization to create body development through a series of exercises that included running, jumping, wrestling, throwing, swimming and weight lifting. Physical was highly valued in ancient Greece. Only men participated in gymnastics at the time” Ancient Greece: Gymnastics Mary Glenn Wallace." https://prezi.com/f9jdw3fu_kux/ancient-greece-gymnastics/

Even this hides what the gymnasia were about. They trained boys, the sons of citizens,Scouse1944 (talk) 20:03, 2 June 2018 (UTC) for war.

TCO initial impressions
My impression is that gymnastics does not get huge coverage by reliable sources as say NFL football. There are less amounts of specialized media. And also in the general media, the coverage tends to be very dry (just scores, usually).

I've found the following as allowed sources:
 * International Gymnast: have to search it on site, using google searches I get too many forum hits.  Seems like search only covers recent years.  Wonder if there is a workaround as that really has a lot of good content.
 * Inside Gymnastics: seems like no on site search method, other than current issue.  But maybe Google searches with field defined.  At least there is no forum to muck up the results.
 * Google news searches: gets AP and NYT articles and the like.  But only for last month or so.  Is there a work around?  I guess one can check each site and search on there, but that seems tedious.
 * General sports mags: have seen some stuff from ESPN, SI.  Actually from google searches, but I guess one could try on online search as well.
 * USAG results and rest of site. I think it's official and legit.
 * FIG. I've just reffed the COP, but there is some other content on there, bios with birthdays for instance.
 * Athlete official websites. I guess there are some times when these are allowed for biographies (need to check the exact policy).  I haven't really used them too much.  A lot of them are really out of date or inaccurate (like even if they are allowed per policy, we need to watch accuracy, even more than with a NYT story or the like.)
 * The Gymternet: A blog run by long-time gymnastics media fan favorite, Lauren Hopkins. Good, reliable content.

Non-allowed sources: There is some pretty decent coverage on blogs and Gymanstics Examiner, although we can't really use that. (Blythe is actually a professional journalist irl, but we still can't use GE.) I think there are some specialized times we can use those media (like when there is an interview and we are using the words of the subject for a biographical article), but I'm not sure the exact policy. Also, I know for GE, there is a specific appeals process to go through to even use it as a reference.

TCO (talk)

TFD notification
Only WP:CFB was notified. I think all relevant sports should participate in this discussion at Templates for discussion/Log/2019 April 4.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 01:10, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

World Cup series
Hello. Long time contributor to the project here. In an old discussion, those who took part decided that medals earned at the World Cup series would not be added to the medal record. Recently, I've been noticing many contributors keep adding World Cup medals to the medal record in gymnasts' bios, and I keep deleting these updates so the medal record doesn't look too crowded, but at the same time I understand the importance to show these medals somehow.

Over the last few years, I uploaded the medal results at every World Cup and World Challenge Cup stage to their respective pages (except for 2013, since it had already been done), and I also uploaded the results for every edition of the World Cup Final. So, we can all just browse the articles and know who were the medalists. But of course people want to see this in the bios of the gymnasts.

I decided to be bold and I used the template MedalCount to add the number of medals earned at the World Cup stages to the medal record, instead of listing every medal earned by the gymnasts. This seems like a reasonable compromise without making the medal record look too busy. FIG divides the World Cup series in three different categories: FIG All-Around World Cup (since 2011), FIG World Cup (since 2009) and FIG World Challenge Cup (since 2011). Medals earned prior to 2009 will not be added because these stages were known as World Cup qualifiers, i.e., stages that qualified for the World Cup Final. And since medals earned at the World Cup Final are added to the medal record, it doesn't seem reasonable to count medals earned during the qualifiers.

So far, I added the results to the bios of the female Brazilian gymnasts (Thais Fidelis, Rebeca Andrade, Flavia Saraiva, for example), and very famous gymnasts like Simone Biles and Aliya Mustafina. I'd like members of the project to give feedback about these updates, and tell me if I should keep updating bios like this or try a different approach altogether. -- ThiagoSimoes (talk) 23:00, 1 April 2019 (UTC)


 * For some gymnasts (like Simone Biles, Aliya Mustafina, Cătălina Ponor, Oksana Chusovitina, etc.) it makes sense not to add World Cup medals because they are so accomplished at so many other international FIG competitions that these medals would just clutter their medal summary. However, there are two groups of gymnasts that I feel like need to have their WC medals displayed in the medal summary.  First is gymnats from federations that aren't renowned for their overall international successes.  For them, the likelihood of winning a World, Continental Championships, or even competitions like Mediterranean Games or Pac Rim is rather small. Let's look at Teja Belak of Slovenia -- she has won 1 bronze at Mediterranean Games, qualified for numerous European Championships event finals (no medals) and has won a handful of WC medals.  For a gymnast from Slovenia this is impressive and her medals should be in her medal summary.  Same goes for Ofir Netzer of Israel, Ilaria Käslin of Switzerland, Marta Pihan-Kulesza of Poland, etc.  We shouldn't limit their accomplishments in an easily displayed place (medal summary) just because they aren't at the same level of the top international gymnasts.  The second group would be gymnasts from federations with a lot of depth so their international experience is quite limited.  If we're looking at US gymnasts so many gymnasts might just get this one international medal (Margzetta Frazier, Maile O'Keefe).  We can even add Riley McCusker to that even though she has 1 World Team medal and maybe Trinity Thomas (she has a few Pan American Champs).  These gymnasts shouldn't have their medal summaries depleted just because they aren't the top gymnasts in their country and therefore not getting the same international experience others are getting.  And we can always remove the WC medals if they happen to start winning more international medals (like Leanne Wong, Ana Padurariu, and Anastasia Ilyankova might start stacking up medals in the years to come, but for now they don't have many (if any) non-WC medals but they are all still accomplished).


 * So there should probably be a limit of medals in the medal summary before we stop including World Cup medals. But gymnasts who are not as accomplished as others should not be punished and have their accomplishments not shown.  The World Cups are still International (they are representing their federation) and they are FIG sanctioned so at the very least they should qualify to be in medal summary for those who don't have many (if any) other medals that are in the same category.  Not adding WC medals works only if the gymnast is very accomplished internationally, but there are so many not as famous or accomplished gymnasts getting their own Wikipedia pages and not adding their accomplishments (even if they can't really compare to Simone or Aliya or Jade Barbosa) just seems like we don't value their impact on the sport of gymnastics or recognize their accomplishments. -- Mypurplelightsaber (talk) 12:50, 5 April 2019 (UTC)


 * I understand your point. The problem is we cannot make exceptions for this and this gymnast. First, because judging which gymnast deserves to have World Cup medals displayed on the medal record would become a matter or personal of opinion, and we would be stuck in discussions for each and every gymnasts that wins a medal at the World Cup series if someone disagrees medals should be displayed for that specific gymnast. Even if there is a limit for medals in other competitions, what good would it make, honestly? If a gymnast has earned ten medals at the Mediterranean Games, that makes this person ineligible to have World Cup medals displayed on the medal record? This is weird, in my opinion. Showing the number of medals earned at the World Cup series would be a compromise I believe could work, but maybe I am too stuck in my own opinion. Second, as far as I know, no other sport lists results from World series/multiple World Cup stages on the medal record. There are sports like alpine skiing that list the number of podium results at the World Cup, and this is what I tried to do here. The right thing to do would be changing the infobox for gymnasts completely to add the option to display podium results at the World Cup series. The point is not to have medal summaries depleted, but instead to give credit when credit is due. Gymnasts are different and not everyone will be a medalist at the World Championships, and we have to deal with that. We can always create a section in the gymnast's bio article and inform about his or her competitive record, so the medals would still be displayed if someone updates the article with the adequate content in a section. The medal record should be used only to display unique medals, in once a year competitions. This is the main point of its existence, in the first place -- ThiagoSimoes (talk) 11:09, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

A new newsletter directory is out!
A new Newsletter directory has been created to replace the old, out-of-date one. If your WikiProject and its taskforces have newsletters (even inactive ones), or if you know of a missing newsletter (including from sister projects like WikiSpecies), please include it in the directory! The template can be a bit tricky, so if you need help, just post the newsletter on the template's talk page and someone will add it for you.
 * – Sent on behalf of Headbomb. 03:11, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Photos for 2019 Junior World Artistic Gymnastics Championships
Hi! Yesterday I got some kind of official confirmation by the Head of Media of the 2019 Junior World Artistic Gymnastics Championships (Website) of the previously by the FIG on its media portal approved accreditation for me taking photos to be published on Wikimedia Commons. Today I will leave for Győr and will start taking photos tomorrow. I was thinking about transcluding photos similar to Gymnastics at the 2018 Summer Youth Olympics where Wikimedians and I had an accreditation from the IOC. For YOG, there was subpages for the all-around competition as well as the qualification. In Hungary, there will be all-around competitions and apparatus finals for both, boys and girls.

As this is the 1st ever Junior World Championships I am very happy that we can also take photos there. As I could see on Notability (sports), this new format is not yet mentioned in the notability criteria. However, the relevance as well as the media coverage will be much broader than with national championships, for this first edition probably even as the YOG. What do you think about adding a line for the Junior World Championships as well? Beyond that, I was wondering myself whethers this should be limited to females only as the coverage will be quite similar, for YOG the same, of course with exceptional results like Takeru Kitazono's who will also compete in Hungary. Thanks for your sharing your ideas. Best, —DerHexer (Talk) 09:35, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Anyone around? :-) —DerHexer (Talk) 11:52, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
 * It will be great to have pictures from this competition! I believe we should not restrict by gender, since we've seen examples of male Youth Olympians who have had success at the Olympics as well (such as Arthur Mariano, Nikita Nagornyy and Sam Oldham). About the criteria for notability, can anyone change the text? Would it be okay? -- ThiagoSimoes (talk) 15:33, 28 June 2019 (UTC)


 * Junior World Championships is a very notable event. All competitors will have some notability though medallists for sure should automatically qualify as reaching GNG for Gymnastics. —МандичкаYO 😜 22:01, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

-- I support the following addition "Won an individual medal at the Junior World Championships" -MATThematical (talk) 12:42, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, seconded. For other sports that have junior worlds, what is their policy as far as participation and Wiki notability? I can see a case for all finalists having some sort of notability. —МандичкаYO 😜 15:00, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

When there is no opposition until Sunday to that, I would change the wording as follows: —DerHexer (Talk) 23:24, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Junior gymnasts are presumed notable if they meet any of the criteria below [removed]
 * Won an individual gold medal at the junior national championships for any of the following countries: USA, Russia, China, Romania (females only)
 * Won an individual gold medal, in the junior division, at an elite international competition*
 * Won an individual medal at the Youth Olympic Games or Junior World Championships

I've updated the criteria accordingly. The first files are already online on Commons but it will take some time to finish it. I will let you know about the progress. Best, —DerHexer (Talk) 22:16, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

Some while ago, Sergey Naydin was deleted because of lacking notability. With the adjusted criteria, he would be notable. What should we do here? Best, —DerHexer (Talk) 21:01, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Category:History of Gymnastics
Category:History of Gymnastics is being discussed again, for possible renaming, merger or deletion. Please see Categories_for_discussion/Log/2019_July_5. – Fayenatic  L ondon 21:10, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Request for information on WP1.0 web tool
Hello and greetings from the maintainers of the WP 1.0 Bot! As you may or may not know, we are currently involved in an overhaul of the bot, in order to make it more modern and maintainable. As part of this process, we will be rewriting the web tool that is part of the project. You might have noticed this tool if you click through the links on the project assessment summary tables.

We'd like to collect information on how the current tool is used by....you! How do you yourself and the other maintainers of your project use the web tool? Which of its features do you need? How frequently do you use these features? And what features is the tool missing that would be useful to you? We have collected all of these questions at this Google form where you can leave your response. Walkerma (talk) 04:24, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Article for Creation awaiting review
FYI, Draft:Israel Gymnastics Federation has been waiting for review at Articles for Creation for a couple of months now. --2604:2000:E010:1100:2865:F19:43C0:62D6 (talk) 21:32, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

Discord
Hey all, I hope everyone is safe and healthy. My name is HickoryOughtShirt?4 and I'm a member of WikiProject Ice Hockey. I was wondering if there was any interest in starting a WikiProject Sports channel on Discord? There's quite a few of us who are interested in sports, and I think it would be a good idea to help the WikiProject recruit more members. You guys can join us through here.HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 00:01, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

List of individual medalists at the World Championships and Olympics before 1952
Hey all! The list/article that I created recently, named above, is something that another editor moved to draftspace earlier today. I had never even heard of draftspace before, but upon looking at it a little bit, it seems like the move was a helpful one. In any event, this is a list/article (now a draft) that I created pretty recently in order to serve as an easy reference point for further work and improvement and integration into Wikipedia, at large. To those who are interested in the sport of Artistic Gymnastics from a historical perspective, my grouping of gymnasts into one big 1896-1952 era should, I hope, seem to be a pretty meaningful one. I do plan to do further work on this, although at this point, it is not quite my #1 priority among personal projects or even on Wikipedia, although it is still certainly high on the list. If any of you have any ideas for this draft, please do not hesitate to enter into collaboration with me. Thank you. QuakerIlK (talk) 15:49, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Age of Isabel Judd
There are certain claims about Isabel Judd being older than originally thought. I created a section on the talk page for her article addressing them. I thought I'd let you know. Not A Superhero (talk) 20:30, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Request for Comment on SSN at WP:Notability (sports)
There is a discussion on SSN (sport specific guidelines) at RFC on Notability (sports) policy and reliability issues. Feel free to go there and post your comments. Cassiopeia(talk) 01:00, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Banned gymnastics skills
Hi there, help is required on Talk:Code_of_Points_(artistic_gymnastics). The draft could be developed into a proper short article or merged into Code_of_Points_(artistic_gymnastics). This decision could be made quite fast but I don't feel comfortable doing this choice since I have no knowledge on this matter. Yug (talk)  13:46, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Jaroslava Bajerová
This page needs sources if anyone has time. Best.4meter4 (talk) 12:36, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Done. Thanks for pointing it out. -Riley1012 (talk) 16:02, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Pending proposal to declare NSPORTS (and NGYMNASTICS) an invalid argument at AfD
A new proposal is now pending to add language to NSPORT providing, among other things, that "meeting [NSPORTS or NGYMNASTICS] would not serve as a valid keep argument in a deletion discussion." If you have views on this proposal, one way or the other, please feel free to add your comments at Village pump (policy). Cbl62 (talk) 15:11, 22 January 2022 (UTC)