Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology/Archive 2012

Pursuivant's Barnstar
Greetings from the Awards WikiProject! I am moving the Pursuivant's Barnstar off of the Personal awards page and on to the page for WikiProject Awards. Generally we indicate who suggested the award, who designed it, and when. I've gone through the backlog of your Archives and found no such information. If anyone has that information, I'd be more than happy to add it to the WikiProject Awards page. Cheers! Achowat (talk) 19:54, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
 * As I recall, that was something that I came up with a few years ago (Feb 2009) to thank one or two of our editors who were tremendously helpful with developing heraldry articles and supporting them with new heraldic images. You can see the one I gave User:Lokal_Profil in 2009, and I gave one to User:Sodacan too. I made it into a barnstar template so it could easily be customized and given to anyone contributing to the heraldry articles.  I think User:Tamfang has one, and you can still see the one User:Roux put on my talk page too. Wilhelm Meis (Quatsch!) 12:26, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

edit war over repetition of footnotes
Please consider contributing an opinion to Talk:Ecclesiastical heraldry. —Tamfang (talk) 06:08, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Portal:History
Is up for FPOC. This is one of the highest (if not the highest) visibility portal on Wikipedia, I recommend commenting on it! Cheers, Res Mar 23:15, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Complete rewrite of the College of Arms article
As of today (27 January 2012), I have put out a complete rewrite of the College of Arms article. Please feel free to comment on the article's Talk Page. Best Regards, Sodacan (talk) 19:44, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Swedish heraldry FAC
I recently nominated Swedish heraldry for WP:FAC, and we need knowledgeable editors to comment on the article, so please feel free to look it over and leave your comments at Featured article candidates/Swedish heraldry/archive1. Thank you for your time and your contributions! Wilhelm Meis (Quatsch!) 14:06, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

within in orle
This search throws up three articles containing the phrase "within in orle". It looks like a typo for "within an orle", but these descriptions do contain unusual words and usages, so I thought I'd better ask here. -- John of Reading (talk) 09:12, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
 * For my reckoning, it's a typo. I have never seen "within in" used in blazons. The only source for any of those blazons is in French, so it seems as though it's simply a translation error. Achowat (talk) 13:02, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
 * OK, I've fixed them. Thanks. -- John of Reading (talk) 13:09, 16 February 2012 (UTC)


 * In the arms of Beaudignies, better English would be either within an orle of eight billets or between in orle eight billets; I've changed it to the latter. (The French blason has accompagné, which usually corresponds to English between.)  One could read your version as "Gules, a crescent and, within an orle, eight billets, all argent."
 * The third instance of "within in orle" was Anet (Armorial of the Communes of Eure-et-Loir). I've redone the English blazon to match the French more faithfully: rather than an inescutcheon argent within an orle between crosslets Or, it seems to be an inescutcheon of Azure an inescutcheon argent within a bordure Or. —Tamfang (talk) 06:02, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

British ensign?
I am hoping one of the experts here might be able to identify the flags in this painting (at right). The lower flags resemble the Red Ensign but not quite and the upper flags, likewise, resemble the Union Jack but the colors are not quite right. Is this just "artistic license" or were these flags that might have been used in the mid-19th century? The artist who painted this was alive 1828–1878. Thank you for your help. —Diiscool (talk) 02:32, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The lower ones appear to be a variant. I wouldn't rely to much on the colours, the flags were made as required then, I don't think there were standard colours. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 11:07, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Flag expertise needed
I invite commentary at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject England concerning the legitimacy of various supposed county flags in England, and in particular the invocation of the Flag Institute as an authority in the matter. Mangoe (talk) 04:25, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

A discussion of interest
A discussion that members of this WikiProject may be interested in is happening at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football. Achowat (talk) 20:36, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Help with German term please?
Hello. I'm copy editing the article Ortenburger Heritage Conflict and am stumped by the term Wechselzinnenbalken, which is used in a description of the coat of arms of the Imperial County of Ortenburg (depicted in the latter article). Can anyone give me the English translation, please? --Stfg (talk) 13:57, 15 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Looks like a line that is embattled-counter-embattled


 * Many thanks. --Stfg (talk) 19:34, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Victoria University
The Victoria University (UK) had a coat of arms used from 1880-1904 which I have described in that article. Could an editor more able to express this in the langauge of heraldry please revise this as appropriate.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 07:03, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok, you're just going to need to describe it more. It laymen's terms, what color is the shield, where are the bees, sheep, liverbird and rose in relation to one another and what color are those charges? Achowat (talk) 12:32, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The shield is silver (left half), red (right half), the large central rose is half red, half silver (left & right), the silver globe is top left with seven bees (gold & white) in a circle of six and one central bee, the sheep is top right in gold and has a strap round the middle, the liverbird at the bottom, silver and white with a silver fish in its bill and red feet. It should be visible here: Heraldry of the world.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 13:13, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Looks like, Per pale argent and gules, a rose counterchanged, in dexter chief a terrestrial globe semée of bees Or, in sinister chief a fleece of the third, in point a liverbird rising of the first, beaked and membered of the second. Two things that might be a difference: the Globe is blazoned without any color; it's very strange for a charge to be made entirely of lines, so I'm not 100% on how to handle that. Second, I've never seen an image of a liverbird without a fish in it's beak, so I'm unsure if it's one of those strange rules (like how martlet never has legs) or if it needs to be blazoned. Achowat (talk) 13:31, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you, I have put the description into the article. Perhaps a liver bird like this always has a fish because it is based on a cormorant; it says in the liver bird article that some versions are based on other birds but in modern times it has been made to look like a cormorant.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 08:58, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * A blog by a French Heraldist suggests a blazon "in point a liverbird rising of the first, beaked and membered of the second holding in the beak a fish of the first." It's a bucket shop, but the blazons seem more right than not. Achowat (talk) 12:48, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok, so I just found out that WP:BLAZON exists, so the updated corrected arms would be, in all "Per pale argent and gules, a rose counterchanged, in dexter chief a terrestrial globe semée of bees Or, in sinister chief a fleece Or, in point a liverbird rising argent, beaked and membered gules holding in the beak a fish argent." I hope that settles things once and for all. Achowat (talk) 16:22, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * That is good, I have revised it: the globe and bees come from coat of arms of Manchester where it says "bees volant". This agrees with the book An Heraldic Alphabet, by J. P. Brooke-Little, 1973, p. 48.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 04:30, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Flag of Tonga
I don't know if this is the right place to bring this up, but there has been a new version of the uploaded and there appears to be a problem with the coding when it's used with the flagicon template. I thought it may be my computer/browser playing-up, but it happens on every page and no other flags have the same problem. I've noticed there's been a new version uploaded over the past couple of days with an edit summary about modifying some code, but I'm really not savvy with stuff like that and I'm not able to revert the changes to test if the problem is with the new image.

Just thought I'd bring it up here to see if anyone can help with the problem! Ը२ձւե๓ձռ17 15:56, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Blazons as Original Research?
So I've noticed that there are a lot, like potentially hundreds, or Articles that include a personal Coat of Arms (All of the Popes, for instance). It would be useful, methinks, to include blazons for those arms. Given the blazons are determined by a clearly defined set of rules, would taking an image that we have and describing its blazon be Original Research, or would it fall somewhere in the realm of WP:TRANSCRIPTION? Of course, I reliable source would be ideal, but absent that, are we empowered to, essentialy, "translate" an image to blazon? Achowat (talk) 14:44, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
 * We argued and argued and argued over this, as I recall, when we drew up WP:BLAZON. Essentially, "Formal blazons should not be constructed from loose descriptions or incomplete blazons, as this may violate the No original research policy and may result in an inaccurate blazon." The rest of WP:BLAZON may be relevant depending on what you want to do. On my reading, looking at an image and putting it into blazon is not appropriate. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 15:19, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
 * But we're not talking loose descriptions here. We're talking about verifiable images. The FA, for instance (not that I think the FA's "arms" should be blazoned) would be blazoned "Argent semé of Tudor roses proper, three lions passant guardant in pale Azure armed and langued Gules". I'm having a hard time understanding how simply describing the images in a particular language developed and used exclusively for describing images rises to the level of Original Research. (And please, if I'm re-hashing anything, feel free to direct me to the applicable Conversation). Achowat (talk) 16:16, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
 * It's because you've just made that yourself. It may well be right, however, but that's the same sort of thing as normal OR. (Some relevant material here.) Another thing to consider is that there are many ways to emblazon something, as well. Verifiability requires sourcing all possibly contentious stuff, which this is; it's very strong on the matter. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 09:52, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Noted, thanks for the information. I guess there are cases where it wouldn't be so cut-and-dry ("Tierced in fess Argent, gules, and Or" v. "Party per fess Argent and Or, a fess gules"). It actually makes perfect sense now, having read through that Style Guide. Cheers! Achowat (talk) 14:09, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Azure
NOte to all members: Azure was speedily moved to Azure (heraldry), resulting in over 400 disambiguation links to be repaired. Some of these links have been incorrectly "repaired" by linking to Azure (color), which is about the tertiary color on the HSV color wheel, instead of linking to Azure (heraldry). Probably all the links to Azure and Azure (color) should be checked. --EncycloPetey (talk) 17:12, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

a sleeping Moon?
How would you blazon (in English or German) the Moon in the arms of Stetten, Schaffhausen? The article now has Gules Moon increscent Or, which is clearly wrong; an increscent would have horns to dexter. But I've never seen this charge before! —Tamfang (talk) 06:28, 15 April 2012 (UTC)


 * A crescent is normally in that orientation, when no other desciption is given, but I've not seen one before in that orientation drawn with a face. Faces typically end up only on increscents or decrescents (in her increment or in her decrement), but usually no face appears on a crescent. --EncycloPetey (talk) 07:25, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

El Salvador's flag: how many colours?
At List of flags by number of colors the Flag of El Salvador is listed as being of four colors; however, a cursory glance shows it has more than four. I can't tell for sure how many, but there are at least seven, I think, and possibly more. Two of the flag's variants are of three colors each, but none shown is four. Since I don't know how many colors are actually involved, I don't know how to correct the listing. --Haruo (talk) 03:01, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Hmm. The list actually says the civil ensign of El Salvador has four colours; our article only gives what appears to be a variant that is listed as being the civil ensign, the one with the motto in gold/Or (i.e. with 3 colours!). I would be very hesitant to every ascribe a particularly number to a flag that uses a coat of arms or anything like that. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 12:36, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * You're right, the list says "Civil Ensign" but the article doesn't have a variant that it calls "Civil Ensign", though the motto-in-gold variant does appear to be such (based on the image file's name). So I'm going to move the listing to "3". --Haruo (talk) 18:02, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I take it back; I wasn't seeing "civil ensign" because it was listed as "civil and state ensign" and the blue links blinded me. ;-) Anyhow, it's fixed. --Haruo (talk) 18:08, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Titles of articles about royal standards
There's a bit of a dispute going on right now at Talk:Royal standards of Canada over the article's title; namely, whether or not the word "standard" should be singular or plural. The article is about more than one royal standard, meaning it is about the royal standards of Canada. However, other articles that cover more than one royal standard use the singular "standard" in their titles (see Royal Standard of the Netherlands, for example). Some additional opinion on the matter would be appreciated. -- Ħ   MIESIANIACAL  00:19, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Swiss flag
Currently, two different versions of the Swiss flag are used in the English wiki. Since I think it would be better to use one version consistently, I started a thread at WT:CH. Feel free to join the discussion. mge o talk 17:12, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Burke's Peerage could use a quick update
Anybody care to do a quick update of Burke's Peerage?

It currently says


 * Digital editions of many of the classic Burke's works will be published online in 2010 and a printed Supplement to the 107th Edition is planned to appear under the editorship of William Bortrick in 2011.

Thanks.

-- 186.221.136.197 (talk) 13:49, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Why not Be Bold and fix the tenses yourself? Wikipedia should be edited by everyone! Join the fun!! Achowat (talk) 13:54, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Resource
I'm looking for a Heraldry resource book. A sort of Heraldry 216 (Edit, I originally had Heraldry 101, but I'm looking for a bit more advanced than that). Anyone have a treeware book they find particularly useful? Achowat (talk) 14:00, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Template:Coat of arms: standardised usage in infoboxes and lists
The newly created Template:Coat of arms might be of interest to the members of this wikiproject. The template enables the systematic use of heraldry in infoboxes, as opposed to the much-used Template:Flag. I reckon it may be introduced in many articles, but many countries etc. need to be added to the list (that is, their escutcheons). It's easy to edit. - SSJ t 01:12, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Redesign
Hello! I updated this project, and added some new stuff, so i hope that you like it. It is by far better then it was, if you aks me.. :) Anyway, if anyone have some nice idea about further updates, i am here! :) All best! -- WhiteWriterspeaks 18:08, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Oxford colleges
There's been a bit of argument and edit-warring going on over on some of the pages for Oxford colleges, where ChevronTango has been replacing images of college arms with his/her own versions, partly in the name of accuracy, but mainly in that of standardisation. See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject University of Oxford. In the case of Trinity, at least, the issue isn't really one of technical accuracy, but of taste: see Talk:Trinity College, Oxford. Members of this project might like to weigh in. GrindtXX (talk) 23:31, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Rfc at Talk:Byrne
Comments have been requested at this article about an Irish surname. The question is whether one specific coat of arms should be shown on the article page. Input from your side would be appreciated. Regards, De728631 (talk) 09:21, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Heraldry rather than trademarks
Someone is complaining that the version of the Cambridge University shield we're using on Wikipedia is not exactly the same rendering as the one the University uses. I am trying to explain to him that it's still the same coat of arms, but the point is not getting through; if someone else could try to explain it better than I can, I'd appreciate it. Marnanel (talk) 16:10, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Missing flag
File:Flag of Brevard County, Florida.jpg was deleted. It is used in a lot of articles so I used a copy of File:Flag of None.svg as a placeholder. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 06:41, 11 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Good work, Alan. FOTW says that the county officials claim that the flag may not be represented other than on county business ! I don't know how that would work for us being able to represent it here. Marnanel (talk) 12:30, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Cajun-related flag with cypress tree, river???
Greetings, I dimly recall years ago seeing some flag used by some politically-active Louisiana Cajuns back in the 1970s or so, which as I recall was somehow supposed to link them with Canadian Acadians and some other Francophone communities in the New World. I somewhat clearly recall it had a green tree (cypress?) on a white field, with a blue squiggly line below for a river.

I asked about this in 2010 at WikiProject Louisiana to no avail. Does anyone recall such a flag, and do we need to have an article about it? MatthewVanitas (talk) 21:54, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Flag of Navarra
I found two flags of Navarra. Which I scholud use in articles?

On FOTW lag have CoA similar to left flag, but size from right flag. Malarz pl (talk) 06:32, 8 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Boy, these look identical from a heraldic perspective - same crown, eight arms of chains, emerald in the center. I imagine that they are simply representations from different time periods, or even just one from the Navarre community and one from the Spanish government. I honestly don't believe it would ever be fruitful to pursue the matter; I would just go with the one that looks best to you - the richer red/smaller coat of arms version looks best to my eye. VanIsaacWS Vexcontribs 07:35, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

cleanup
Most of /Archive 2010 was two copies of the same entries. I chopped it in half, taking care that no content was lost. —Tamfang (talk) 06:15, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Deletion of articles on heirs to historic dynasties
Several requests to delete articles entitled "Line of succession to the former throne of X" (e.g. Württemberg, Tuscany, Two Sicilies) have recently been proposed for deletion from Wikipedia by Pat Gallacher. Although Wikipedians from various projects are being notified of these requests for removal, I think those who monitor this page may also appreciate being notified. FactStraight (talk) 03:19, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

file up for deletion
image:City of Charlottetown crest.png have been nominated for deletion -- 70.24.247.127 (talk) 06:42, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Missing flag
File:Friuli-Venezia_Giulia-Flag.png has been deleted from Commons. See. It is used on numerous articles so it needs replacement. The Italy WP is notified as well. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 18:56, 26 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I could probably make one pretty quickly from elements elsewhere in Commons. Which version was it: the “official” eagle taking flight from a mural crown, or the “popular” eagle displayed?—Odysseus1479 (talk) 21:41, 27 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I know nothing about the flag. I noticed it missing when a batch of articles containing the image popped up in Category:Articles with missing files. I will have to leave images creation to the experts here. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 01:10, 28 December 2012 (UTC)


 * From communication with the Commons admin who deleted the file I’ve identified the design. No promises regarding timing, but I’ll post back here when I’ve recreated the image.—Odysseus1479 (talk) 19:20, 29 December 2012 (UTC)