Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Historical Atlas

New activity 2008
Hello, I have dreamed about this kind of project for a while. I tried "atlas of world history" and "centennia" and love them. Here are my idea about the project:


 * To be interesting to audience, editing the atlas should be easy and graphical. See OpenStreetMap.org. No scripting and text based coordinates for the historian/user side.
 * I see this as having a single database, a server that handles edits/locking etc over internet and a client (preferably browser is enough). My point is that let's not do the actual content by ourselves. Lets have people edit the maps themselves because the amount of material is huge. Lets just design and make the software system for editors to play with.
 * Obviously a new software is needed, or a modification of existing software like TimeMap, GMT, ...
 * user should be able to "goto" what every time (precision of one day is more that enough). (s)he would then have a view of certain time.
 * user could click days/years/many years forward/backward in one click or run it as an animation. Zoomed in or out to any location. Like a common map service but with time dimension.
 * At given time (say, 3.5.1203) one would see "political" map of the region viewed. If editor would edit country borders, it would mean that they are changed at 3.5.1203 and would persist until they change later on history.
 * areas would be countries,states,tribes i.e. smaller or bigger organizations. Subareas of one area could have similar color theme (e.g. different types of red).
 * Borders would have different width/style depending are they between provinces of ancient rome, between sovereigh countries or even between great alliances (western block, eastern block, axis/allies).
 * the project itself needs more space than this one huge discussion page where no one can find anything anymore. Maybe a new wiki for that. My dream would be to have some live meetings, it is far more effective than communication over internet. but that's not possible. world is big.

--Skylark (sorry, not registered. I'll do it later) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.233.80.20 (talk) 14:24, 19 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi Skylark, easy editing is a good idea. Otherwise the project could possibly quit at the start. There are already a lot of maps on Wikipedia, so the historical atlas can only be special if there is some quality control, and a strict format. Maybe a plan could be to have open editing at the start and than try to make something special and of high quality gradually. Nice to have you on board. We could probably start with a group of four.Daanschr (talk) 07:18, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Hello again. I made a wikidot-site for organizing this project and get it started. Please visit that place and see some of my ideas and participate. The nick "Skylark" was already registered so I took and new one. Skylarque (talk) 13:54, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Your new name is très artistique.Daanschr (talk) 12:23, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Your site looks impressive. I will mail Tibor (Tblazko) and speak with Martin about it. Others are probably departed, but we shall see about that.Daanschr (talk) 12:27, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Tibor is in and Martin is not. Martin is available for asking questions on programming, if these arise, though. I will send a message to all people who responded in the last two years, so maybe we will have a larger group soon.

I am in favour of a structure in organizing, to ensure activity. So, we can meet regularly and do some tasks in order to get things going.

My main concern is how we can copy the borders from countries from one map to another. If we are going to draw borders manually, it will not only be a lot of work, but also the map will look ugly.Daanschr (talk) 07:40, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Plans for 2009
I have hardly any understanding of programming, so i suggest to make some maps which can be copied into the program, Tibor is making, when he is ready. I presume that the making of maps have issues of their own, like dealing with copyrights, style, historical accuracy, topic.

Suggestion: making some simple world maps as a start-up in one style, covering turn of a century, going back in time to the start of the first countries, 5,000 years ago in Egypt and Iraq.Daanschr (talk) 11:56, 23 January 2009 (UTC)


 * This project is on a temporary hold.Daanschr (talk) 08:14, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

New wikiproject wp:HSITES
Please take note of new WikiProject Historic sites which is starting off very well, knock on wood. I am, offhand, fascinated by your audacious vision here. I have been somewhat mesmerized by the Google map link tools, now a routine feature of U.S. NRHP historic sites list-articles (check the Google map link towards top right of, say, List of RHPs in Syracuse ), but I appreciate the importance of historical data and tools which will likely not be developed for commercial/public use without a project like yours. Perhaps there is potential for cooperation and for wp:HSITES to use and feature the tools proposed here? I'll watch here, anyhow, and I hope you do find some success! :) doncram (talk) 13:49, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Great work
You've done a great work with the invitation, Coldplay Expert.Daanschr (talk) 14:54, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I will ask about the talk page.Daanschr (talk) 15:00, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Ill be willing to mape some maps but the animated type. Ill begin work on the Userboxes and possibly a barnstar soon.-- Coldplay   Expert  18:17, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

We probably have to publish maps on Commons, because the admins don't like atlases on Wikipedia. But this WikiProject can link to Commons. I have used this map generator and copy paste it to GIMP. When the map was done, i saved it in .png, so i could download it on Wikipedia. The map has large pixels, so it is easy to draw. It only takes an hour for the maps on the Roman Empire that i made. All though, it takes a lot of time to handle all the programs at first. We could download maps on Electionworlds atlas on Commons.Daanschr (talk) 19:54, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry about that, what I meant was I could make maps but NOT the animated type. I have several atlases at hand to help me as well. Just supply a certain type of map and Ill get it done. (Im really food with post-1800 maps)-- Coldplay   Expert  20:35, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean with animated type. A problem is that we need to agree on how we will make the historical atlas. Nothing has yet been organized. So, what kind of format, colours etc. do you want? Or you can make a map and we will discuss yours and mine creation. :-) Daanschr (talk) 15:13, 30 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Well I alredy have a color pattern in my mind for the nations that would appear on the map. Ill wait for you to post a map of the world in oh say. this year and Ill do the same. Then we can work form there.-- Coldplay   Expert  17:51, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

One thing that i used to think about earlier on and discussed about with Tibor was how to get the right measurements of the borders. In GIMP, i used to draw maps manually. That is easy and fast, but not accurate.

Making one world map this year is a good plan.Daanschr (talk) 19:27, 30 October 2009 (UTC)


 * [[File:Blank map of the world (Green land).png]] Here's a blank map of the world with rivers. It came form..out of all places. | Alternatehistory.com so we may have to get permission form them to use it for any long period of time. THen again, since they posted it on a forum like site, maybe all the maps there are already public domain...-- Coldplay   Expert  20:29, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

It's a good map. I like it. It has large pixels, so it is easy to use it. Copy rights are important indeed. Wikipedia is very strict on that. Some of my pictures have been deleted for having bad copy rights.Daanschr (talk) 20:40, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

We could add maps on Electionworlds atlas on Commons.Daanschr (talk) 20:46, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Every map can have an invitation to join our project. this way, there will be more and more people who can find us.Daanschr (talk) 20:47, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

It is not Electionworlds atlas. It is the atlas of Wikipedia, but User:Electionworld created it.Daanschr (talk) 20:49, 30 October 2009 (UTC)


 * That stuff looks great! We can also use it without worying about copyrights! Now we just have to establish a common type of map to use (what it should look like and what colors for the countries)-- Coldplay   Expert  21:38, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm a bit stressed, because of my internship, so i will not do a lot for the project the coming week or so.Daanschr (talk) 12:38, 31 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Alright, ill be waiting for you :)-- Coldplay   Expert  17:15, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I will probably quit with my intern, so than i got a lot of time.Daanschr (talk) 15:59, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

colours
Shall we do some regular colours, or shall we design colours?Daanschr (talk) 15:59, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I propose the universal color scheem. (UCS) its form the same site that I got the map form. We dont need permission to use it either becasue its just a group of colors for a nation or nations. Ill show you the colors later.-- Coldplay   Expert  21:25, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good to me.Daanschr (talk) 07:10, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
 * You know I think that If one of us just asks for permission to use their maps, im sure we could. But like I said, Ill posy the colors once I can get them all on the same page to upload.-- Coldplay   Expert  11:10, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't know where you got the picture exactly, so it would be best if you ask it.Daanschr (talk) 20:34, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I got the picture from -- Coldplay   Expert  22:03, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Land borders
Very important for a good looking map and the hardest work to accomplish is realistic borders. The best way to get realistic borders is by using existing borders from maps and somehow to try to implement them exactly on our maps. If this doesn't work, than we need to draw borders as realistically as possible. The older the time period, how easier it is to make borders, because they can't be reconstucted very well. But, even than borders can look really clumsy.Daanschr (talk) 15:59, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Hereby the first result of an attempt to download realistic borders. I copied the borders of one picture on our standard picture, by copying the colours of the borders. I will now try to scale the borders, so it fit exactly. This can be tried with all kinds of borders from a large number of maps in the future.Daanschr (talk) 09:17, 7 November 2009 (UTC)



I am thinking about starting a special department for making boundaries, the Boundaries Department. Than i can download and discuss boundaries there, otherwise this talk page might become too large.Daanschr (talk) 10:45, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

New attempt to get the right boundaries: Daanschr (talk) 17:00, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Plans
My proposal was to make a world map of every turn of the century. We can also make other kind of maps. What do you like to do?Daanschr (talk) 20:36, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * That would be a good idea.-- Coldplay   Expert  22:03, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

I have stopped with the intern, so i am now unemployed. So, i like to make some maps the coming days. I will try to download borders on the map, basically it would be putting one map on another. That will be some tough programming, but it keeps the man occupied.Daanschr (talk) 09:03, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Caramba! It works within 2 minutes work. See above↑Daanschr (talk) 09:11, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Here's the UCS taht I told you about. -- Coldplay   Expert  18:19, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Good colours. It would have been lots of work to create something like this ourselves.Daanschr (talk) 21:51, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I like the example bottom right :-) Daanschr (talk) 21:58, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah its funny but I suggest that this is the colors that we use. A world map form 2000 will come soon.-- Coldplay   Expert  22:23, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

SVG or bitmap?
Should we be aiming to make maps SVG or some bitmap format like PNG? I'm inclined to think the former if we can. --Erp (talk) 21:46, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I haven't used SVG yet. I have used PNG, because i could download it on Wikipedia. I don't have much knowledge when it comes to programming.Daanschr (talk) 21:53, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

PNG. That is what I use.-- Coldplay   Expert  22:21, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


 * SVG scales better and it is a bit more object oriented (i.e., easier to change text from one language to another). I've played with it on some wikipedia maps (see File:Lycia-turkey-ancient.svg) though am by no means expert.  I use Inkscape to manipulate.  --Erp (talk) 06:32, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

GIMP should also be able to work with .SVG, but i couldn't download the picture. I have asked about it on a GIMP forum. I have worked with .PNG in the last days. Hope .SVG will work as well, otherwise i will also download Inkscape. Great map you have made on Lycia.Daanschr (talk) 09:22, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Erp, what do you like to do with the historical atlas? At the moment, me and CE agreed upon starting with making a world map, showing the political situation on january 1st 2000 and to make maps at the start of every century from than on. I am thinking about making a list of tasks, that we can do. It will be all voluntarily. The benefit of having tasks is that new participants can easily understand what is to be done and we got a clear scheme of what we are going to do. But first we need to agree on what kind of historical atlas we will make.Daanschr (talk) 12:09, 11 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Well I'm not sure how much time I'll have. Personally I think concentrating on a particular region/timeframe where maps are needed for articles, doing a good job there and then move on to another.  For instance I"m looking at getting maps for other regions of ancient Turkey.  Admittedly one problem is that geography also changes (see Menderes and note how the shoreline has changed significantly over time) so current outlines sometimes aren't good starting points for ancient maps.  Knowledge can also be fragmented, we don't always know where certain cities were.   The overall view is good for determining where things stood; however, a world map will not reveal much detail.  We may want to have more detailed maps (at least continent by continent) to accompany it.  Also do we stick to the century or do we choose key points in time (e.g., just after WW1, just after WW2, height of the Mongol empire for Eurasia, 1492 for the Americas).  We should keep an eye on stuff at WikiProject Maps.  One nice feature would be doing animated maps showing boundary/political changes (e.g., capital changing) over time (though that is bleeding edge). --Erp (talk) 04:14, 14 November 2009 (UTC)


 * The plan of this project is to make an atlas. In my initial proposal three years ago, i planned to make a interactive atlas with maps covering changes every year and also to follow military campaigns day by day. Problem is the lack of manpower to create such an atlas. You make great maps for the articles, so continue doing that. With only the two of us, we can't create the kind of historical atlas that i was thinking about.Daanschr (talk) 07:35, 14 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I will continue with the atlas as long as i'm unemployed. I will have work soon, and than i will wait for new enthusiastic participants.Daanschr (talk) 07:37, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree that Inkscape is a better, but it works similar to GIMP.Daanschr (talk) 09:31, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Historical accuracy
We could have some historical investigation in the sources, reading books, to make better maps. With every map, we could show military events for instance.Daanschr (talk) 10:51, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree-- Coldplay   Expert  11:59, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Comment on the WikiProject X proposal
Hello there! As you may already know, most WikiProjects here on Wikipedia struggle to stay active after they've been founded. I believe there is a lot of potential for WikiProjects to facilitate collaboration across subject areas, so I have submitted a grant proposal with the Wikimedia Foundation for the "WikiProject X" project. WikiProject X will study what makes WikiProjects succeed in retaining editors and then design a prototype WikiProject system that will recruit contributors to WikiProjects and help them run effectively. Please review the proposal here and leave feedback. If you have any questions, you can ask on the proposal page or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you for your time! (Also, sorry about the posting mistake earlier. If someone already moved my message to the talk page, feel free to remove this posting.) Harej (talk) 22:47, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

WikiProject X is live!


Hello everyone!

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Harej (talk) 16:57, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

image on this page nominated for deletion
The large world map on this page has been nominated for deletion here. Feel free to comment at that discussion. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 17:30, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Activity
Is this project abandoned? Lironcareto (talk) 16:32, 13 February 2018 (UTC)