Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Historical Atlas/Archive01

This is excellent work! Please let your programmer know that I'm interested in a sort of timeline feature which would color the same areas the same color over a span of time-- this would allow for making animated GIFs of the rise and fall of the Roman empire, for example. Also, where is the source code? Ashi b aka tock 14:42, 20 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I have little knowledge of the technical possibilities. I will primarily work on making the maps, the factual acuracy and the use of reliable sources.--Daanschr 08:57, 21 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Probably misunderstanding, expect no programming into daan's examples, it's hand work with bitmap editor, right?.Tblazko 07:48, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, my map was purely handwork. I had enormous trouble using GIMP and ultimately, GIMPdidn't work anymore. The colours in my map are the original colours, because new colours weren't accepted by GIMP. Now i can get new colours after lots of work, but i can't use the fill option anymore, so mapmaking was not a succes. I could get very good borderlines easily because it was not a map with vectors, but with pixles (if you understand what i mean).--Daanschr 11:32, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Example of what is possible:
 * Lucius Paullus
 * Lucius Paullus (Version for those with a smaller computerscreen)
 * The texts on this map are clickable and are connected to articles on Wikipedia.

Tblazko initial comments
this project wants to create and fill complete world history maps atlas where user can see map of world in any date and detail

such maps should be usable in wikipedia articles

(in later versions) should user see animation of borders (f.e. during any war) day by day


 * In reply to the above comments: For the last several years, I have been wishing to download a blank world map, write a Python (or other language) script that can take many different parameters (region, date-range, optional layers of information (stone age tool distribution, langauge distribution, river basins/watersheds, cultural/national sovereignty, etc) to overlay), lookup the data for those parameters in a tediously hand-written database of coordinates, color assignments, and other values), then output however many BMP, GIF, PS, or SVG frames are necessary to show whatever evolution of "stuff" one wants to see. I could waste my time detailing the many false starts I've gone through trying to get off the ground, but I think the only useful work I've accomplished has been the lat/lon boundaries of the continental regions of interest in a crude GMT script. I feel as if I were simultaneously cursed with an abundance of ideas and poor planning skills. Xaxafrad 01:56, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I have used GMT as well for the map in the article Lucius Paullus. I propose that we use the resources that best fit the amount of participants joining us and the skills they have. At the moment we are only with three or four, so we should use something easy like GMT, which doesn't cost too much time.--Daanschr 13:05, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


 * i must have a look at GMT first, than i will reply you, if there is someone could give me link to short overview how to create very simple map there i will be glad THANKS (for me very interesting if it could create any file with coordinates inside and/or if it can read such file)
 * surely i think about database of coordinates too, Tblazko 14:53, 4 December 2006 (UTC))

You click on this link and click the form, which is written in pink. Under map boundaries you can put down coordinates. Under north 40 into 54, under west you change -110 into 3, under south you change -20 into 50 and under east you can change -40 into 8. Then you scroll down untill you see the Create map button. After you did this, you will be able to see the most beautiful country on earth. If you are not sattisfied with the results, then you can change the coordinates to get another map.--Daanschr 17:57, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
 * this way you will get 'standard output', i expect the next will be your hand work in any graphics editor, or did you ever enter 'user defined locations' with 'connect locations' at that page? having own database of coordinates it should be easy create text you will just paste there and it will create you own map with your polygon, one problem here it is just one polygon (comparing with google earth - there in kml file you can have more polygons, also you can create new polygons there just by mouse clicks - see next); result: searching of existing (gmt based?) tool will allow more
 * or could we use google-earth like our polygon-creation editor? >>Daanschr<<, could you express your opinion to create lines in GE? is it comfortable enough? generaly i can accept you will create more shorter border parts (means f.e. a-b-c and c-d not one very long a-b-c-d only) or maybe just points (placemerks) there (our system will connect them f.e. using 'get next nearest point' logic); can you please make any real simple try? f.e. try to create polygon will follow any existing border part
 * I don't know what GE is. Does polygon mean drawing lines? I have used Inkscape, but was not very sattisfied with the results.--Daanschr 11:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * GE is google earth http://earth.google.com/ program you must download and install, yes, polygon means drawing lines there (menu add/polygon), such polygon you will name and can save as (kml) file (right click at polygon name (in 'places' window) and save-as), later you can such file (it has real coordinates inside) read back (file/open), double click to name will turn globe so you will see it in detail, you can hide it (uncheck) or delete (context menu), if someone wants change coordinates manualy it could be done by editing kml file in notepad Tblazko 15:14, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * (to make it sure: we do not plan use GE to get final pictures because of lincese - just can think about it to create coordinates graphical way - mouse clicks)
 * My computer is very old, so Google Earth doesn't fit. I am still studying at the moment, so i don't have the money to buy a new computer. Next year i will hopefully have a good fulltime job, so i can buy a new computer. Perhaps Google Maps could be used as well? I really like the idea of having the right coordinates. Maps can become very accurate, especially if we read books about the history of a small region or city.--Daanschr 08:56, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 * why you was not satisfied with inkscape results? Tblazko 15:25, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Drawing lines was too crude. There were no nice curves in them. I hope Chris could help us out in this, he is an artist.--Daanschr 08:56, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 * as we already know we will not take final pictures from google earth because of license, so how we will create our pictures?
 * We can use GMT maps from Aquarius perhaps, but they are pixel based instead of vector based.--Daanschr 11:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * 1. is it enough our system will create just simple (black and white) picture with required border lines there? (imagine picture of europe you can see at this page just in two colors) also can think about filling of areas by one color but maybe (for begin) it should be done than by hand in graphics editor; >>Daanschr<<, could you comment this idea?
 * I used GIMP for filling the map with colour, but GIMP has been wracked. Everytime i uninstall and reinstall this program it uses the old settings. I guess i can only use the way i did before by first formatting the hard drive on my computer and then reinstall Windows.--Daanschr 11:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * not functional gimp is not main problem now, you can use any other program (easy things like fill areas by color also by mspaint included in windows), question is how simple picture output from our system is usable Tblazko 15:19, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Do you mean how a picture can be copied into the main programm of the atlas?--Daanschr 08:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 * 2. draw using gmt; i still did not investigate gmt tools internaly (not www page you game me link to), still possible can use internaly them to display our maps (create not just b&w pictures with lines but something more detained (f.e. just rivers and mountains, but not actual state borders)), can you, >>Xaxafrad<<, comment this idea a bit? (one day can have a look at http://www.ucalgary.ca/~phillips/graphics/gmt/gmt.html if it is possible change example scripts a bit to get them without state borders (expect just modify something in pscoast line) and check what is necessary to transform example scripts to pictures, the best if there is any web-based service for it) Tblazko 09:55, 5 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the switch for controlling the display of national (and state) borders in GMT is -N. In the examples scripts given on that page, every line except pscoast is extraneous; just delete the whole -N switch to draw no borders. BTW, what operating systems is everyone using? I would highly suggest installing GMT on a Linux box in order to have full access to all the tools (I'm only familiar with 2 or 3 of them, so far). GMT uses the -I switch to control the display of 9 different categories of rivers and canals. Check out pscoast, psbsemap, psxy, and pstext at the GMT homepage. I made a rough subpage that might help if you want to run GMT (I can put up a few basic starter scripts, if anyone wants).Xaxafrad 08:05, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I can get Linux, but i have to ask a friend of mine who lives 50 kilometres away. Perhaps, my father has Linux as well. I don't know anything about the technical terms. I will try the things you suggested, so i will be able to give some feedback.--Daanschr 09:13, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I found Xubuntu rather easy to install on my roommate's laptop. I think User:Xaxafrad/GMT has notes about installing Xubuntu and creating a sharable filespace. It's free, just download the CD image file (~700MB), burn it on a CD, and reboot your system and boot off the CD. Xaxafrad 00:36, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * i'm windows based (even with various unix experiences), my hope is will exist any solution can traslate such script examples via web interface (does exist any web page you can paste gmt script and it will create picture?) or maybe localy installed scripts (why not windows? what is limit for windows? probably do not need more than script->picture tool) (maybe generaly can i think about create something web based when can use php there)
 * still open question how to create coordinates for daan easiest way (seems we will cancel google earth), does anybody know any other already existing and free tool where you can get list of globe coordinates just by clicking into map? (f.e. i still did not speak with any man has gps navigation system into car - how they entering planned travel there?) Tblazko 18:15, 9 December 2006 (UTC)


 * The map i produced in the article Lucius Paullus could be changed by giving the exact coordinates. We can look for the coordinates of places on Google Earth or other places (some Wikipedia articles on a place give the exact coordinates) and then put the coordinates on the map produced with GMT.
 * A friend of mine uses a cd-rom for starting Linux. I must ask him if left for me. I hope i can use the advanced version of GMT on my computer. Shall we try to download GMT and try the program, or do you want to search some more for other systems?--Daanschr 11:20, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm as much of a Linux expert as any other Windows-only user, except I downloaded a distro and installed it on a laptop. If you use a different distro, I might not know what the error messages mean, but then Google probably would. If you have the patience to read 4-6 complete readme files, you should have few, if any, minor problems installing Linux and GMT (perhaps your particular system specs may be unique enough for something not to work, if so, be prepared to list them). Xaxafrad 06:29, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * 3. maybe if gmt draw is not usable for us; for next versions we can investigate how it is with http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/BlueMarble/ usage and license, the best cancel this research for initial version Tblazko 08:58, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

should be way to store disputed territories (f.e. today's example is borders between china and india) should be way to create modification of maps for wikipedia discussions


 * In my imagination, this theoretical database is built on a foundation of pre-defined geographic areas, small enough to be workable, probably something like 800-2000 regions (that might just be for land). I haven't looked very far into the 867 divisions of ecoregions, but I think it's a good framework for inspiration. If ownership of a region is disputed, simply mark it as such, and be sure to include database space to identify multiple claimantship. Xaxafrad 01:56, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


 * It would be hard to fit all ancient states and regions into 800-2000 regions. An idea of Tibor on the talk page, was to have a system similar to Google Maps. My idea about it is that we can have several scales of maps. One would be a worldwide scale, in which the German Empire of 1500 would be represented as one block without the small states visible. We could scale the maps to a local level where even the districts of small countries can become visible.--Daanschr 13:05, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * to be more correct: 1. 'system similar to google maps' - i can easily imagine system will display such picture of europe like is here - see down - it means will draw borders (lines) = will not draw satellite images (like google maps has because pays for them) 2. i can imagine that man who wants create new map will use f.e 'google earth' like editor to draw such borders - my question to such man is if he can find this comfortable; i'm able export any in our system already stored border there - what can be also used like helping background Tblazko 14:47, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
 * if i understand idea of smallest possible regions well (?) i can just agree with daans comment - hard to imagine there is usable list of such regions you can just combine to any map in the history
 * idea of map levels/scales is for next discussion, generaly there should be any belongs-to relation (bayern-germany-europeanunion-europe-nato-etc.) but sometimes one element could belong to more one-level-up elements (tokaj wine area is part of slovakia and hugaria and does not fit to any actual political border) and many times you can define more independent level systems (nato, european union)
 * and already generaly speaking about belongs-to relation: maybe it will be 'belongs-to with date-range' or opposite 'contains-what' because some regions could belong to different countries in different time Tblazko 17:27, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
 * in this moment i again repeat my idea of border parts sharing (having border parts of greece you already have done part of borders of europe, nato, european union), just (see tokaj example up) probably will be not possible just combine small political border parts to get any required element (one more argument against list of basic regions) - of course question is how freely/generaly will be our database defined (is something like tokaj area (or wheet-planting area in china or forest-area in brazil etc.) case for us? one day probably yes, question is when deal with it really) Tblazko 17:07, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I will rearrange the talk page and the project page, because we have two talk pages at the moment.--Daanschr 13:05, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Determining borders will also pose a huge problem. Historical atlases contradict eachother often in details. There has been regions where the population didn't even know where they belonged to, so we can't know it for them. A contemporary example is present-day Somalia, which is in anarchy nowadays. For a long while, only the cities were really part of an empire, the countryside didn't really belong to a certain country, especially in remote areas. Ireland for instance was organized in collectives of people untill the 17th century and not into land areas as is normal in the (modern) western world. Another problem is sovereignty. In the middle ages, the pope and the emperor fought on who was the representative of god on earth, other rulers were supposed to obey to either the pope or the emperor including the kings of England and France. Small regions kept on resisting any attempt of a powerful state the rule the area. It would be good to first take over all the crude borderlines as represented in historical atlases and to have some organize the study of the details of borderlines, which will never be sufficient enough and will always be controversial.--Daanschr 18:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

plan is more sofisticated system than just bitmaps

it has internaly store not just any general graphical objects (picture points or border lines) but something more intelligent

like 'border, between france and germany, valid from 1.5.1945 till 1.1.3000, part-1, list-of-coordinates'

and will draw all necessary parts on request like 'borders, germany, 1.jan.2000', zoom-to-see-all-requested-borders, fill by green colour'

(expect background will be fixed (continents boundaries will be in vector form too?))

question is user interface for historians to fill such database

what also depends on development effort

if historians team will be patient enough it should start with something like nearly manual writing of coordinates

or 'legaly thiefing' them from another system (continents have to be offered from begin, right?)

anyway don't expect first version will have big user comfort for them - expect initial problem will be define minimal usable one

maybe later - with first experiences and visible results - can get more people to project and make it more user-friendly

or maybe we will reuse any existing system - if possible (nasa w-w-w?)

maybe output will be just export of concrete static pictures from there to put them into web pages

still no deep analyse, decision or even real search and examination of existing solutions

anyway:

keeping historians work into coordinate-based database will later enable tranform it to new (more sophisticated) system (fully or nearly) automaticaly

with just bitmap pictures you haven't such possibility

searching i found many other links like http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Robert_Harrison/Reformat_of_Proposals_for_new_projects_and_related_pages http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_new_projects#Wikipedia:Map http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/New_project_proposals_group#Geography and maybe have a look at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_Historical_Atlas http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2005-July/003618.html

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikiproject_historical_atlas"

High quality
I would like to make a historical atlas of high quality. Therefore, i would like to know if it is possible to copy borders of countries from a source into the atlas, so we don't have to draw the borders ourselves. Not all borders are correctly drawn, even in the most acurate atlases, so there must be a possibility to change this border lines manually. Also, i would prefer to have two versions of the atlas, one which is for the common people, who can watch a good accesible map and another which will be for experts with many footnotes on it, referring to reliable sources if it is possible of course.--Daanschr 09:06, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Footnotes are probably not a very good idea, because of copyright problems. Perhaps somewhere in the future, we could use books as sources. Lets first make maps that are accesible for all people.--Daanschr 07:34, 22 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I think a first step to high quality would be anti-aliasing on the maps. Currently, all the generated maps have anti-aliasing already. Ashi b aka tock 15:13, 23 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I have never heard of anti-aliasing. I guess we must wait for Tibor, he is a software programmer. I hardly know anything of the technical details, the software for mapmaking.--Daanschr 17:55, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

hallo
1. could you read my initial comments? are they clear a bit? you can see there i'm for keeping vector form of maps (reusability, quality - see details there) and want to start discussion about how historians imagine their work in maps creation

- creating new borders from begin (maybe can import actual country borders and continents from any other existing system)


 * Borders from countries pre-1500 are very hard to determine, so it is good to be able to create new borders from the scratch. Also, military campaigns are hardly recorded in old-fashioned atlases. Taking over the shapes of continents and countries from other maps would be a great help.--Daanschr 07:56, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

- reusing our existing data (borders of germany before uniting east and west part are nearly the same like after union - why to draw them twice? also usa's 'go west' keeps east side borders unchanged)

- extending our existing data (more detained borders - change of any border point to more accurate place, inserting new points between existing)

also want have a look at existing (free) systems - not just in wikipedia used - to not create again something already existing


 * Sounds good. I will put down a request in WikiProject maps.--Daanschr 07:56, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * one more link http://sourceforge.net/projects/geo Tblazko 10:52, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * free version of google earth news: "The path and polygon drawing tools are now available in the free product." http://earth.google.com/earth4-beta6.html but can use them outside of GE? (needs check license) Tblazko


 * Could i help with searching? I don't know what i should look for.--Daanschr 10:33, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * i'm just (slowly) searching for something existing and usable for us
 * i installed GE4beta, started it, created and saved path there (add-path, save/save-place as/*.kml), now i have text file with coordinates (GE limits: i can't enter number coordines during path creation)
 * surely we will not use GE completely (it's commercional project) but maybe should it be used like editor for map polygons?
 * our system should be able
 * a) to understand such files with coordinates (generaly not just from GE, maybe exist another similar systems?)
 * b) store coordinates from them into own database (is GE license usable for us? from http://earth.google.com/support/bin/topic.py?topic=1141 is not clear to me if i can legaly use this way created files with coordinates to work with it outside of GE (why not? needs just mention 'GE' somewhere in our project? is it impossible because of license of wikipedia?))
 * c) transform some of stored coordinates (f.e. just germany borders 1.1.2001) to simple picture - you can import such pictures to any graphics editor (f.e. gimp or inkscape), modify them a bit there (f.e. fill areas by colours or combine with another pictures) and publish at web page (of course you can publish pictures at web directly = without any manual modification)
 * what about GE http://earth.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=21422&topic=1141 and nasa www licenses in case of exporting pictures directly from them? maybe we do not need deal with own c) solution
 * note: nasa www enables to switch of (satellite) images (in layer manager) before export to bitmap picture (file/save screenshot) Tblazko 11:17, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I will ask it on the Village Pump in Wikipedia.--Daanschr 13:42, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Here is the answer of the Village Pump: Village_pump_%28technical%29.--Daanschr 14:22, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * shortly: reply was "no, do not use pictures from GE in wikipedia" (even GE license it enables when you will clearly declare their GE origin, wikipedia does not like commercial solutions of this kind) Tblazko 09:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * We can easily circumvent this by starting a Wikia for the creation of a historical atlas. We can create our own rules on a Wikia and will be outside of the law enforcement of Wikipedia. Wikia is founded by Jimmy Wales, so it still has some connection with Wikipedia. Our WikiProject can be used as a recruiting tool.--Daanschr 12:12, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know if we can get a problem with Google. I have hardly any knowledge of law. Can Google Earth be used freely for our purpose, now and in the future?--Daanschr 12:16, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * This is what openstreetmap says about Google. They say we have to pay for it. I have hardly any money, so it would be better to try something else and stay in Wikipedia. What are your thoughts on this?--Daanschr 12:34, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't fret over using other maps, I've seen some nice GMT plots with topography and bathymetry overlays, I just haven't gotten the hang of overlaying things. Also, from a historical point of view, what is the starting time frame? From the arbitrary present, we have to contend with dynamic borders, but from an arbitrary past (say, 10,000 BC(E)), we can build point-based data structures, from the ground up, wiki-style. Xaxafrad 08:16, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I would say that we have no time frame at all. We could start with mapping the Big Bang if it is possible. I thought about starting in 2006 and go back in time, to make maps of 1946 to present and try to get military campaigns in those maps as well. The more modern an age, the easier it is to get reliable maps. You both may start at a different period of time, if you want to make maps as well.--Daanschr 09:16, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


 * d) system also should be able to create files with coordinates so you can use them like helping background for new coordinates creation (using file/open/kml in GE)
 * questions for you: is something like GE and described usage style usable for you to create map lines? do you know something better than combination of GE/own-system for us? do you know why not GE/own-system?
 * Tblazko 14:55, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * i also had a look at default installation of nasa world wild wind (maybe bit older 1.3.3.1) but there i see no creation possibilities (there should be many add-ons and pluggins for it, there is kml importer add-on http://www.worldwindcentral.com/wiki/Add-on:KMLImporter, is there any polygon-edit-and-save add-on too?) Tblazko 15:03, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * i installed nasa-www 1.3.5, it already has kml importer incuded but i found it pretty unusable for files with polygons (some files will not read at all, some will accept but will display nothing), so i'm ready to cancel thoughts about picture export from nasa-www (at least for 1.3.5) Tblazko 09:03, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Great work, Tibor. I am busy at the moment, but i will make time to study the GE license.--Daanschr 19:19, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

2. technical question: how it is with database and programming support in wikipedia? (mysql? php? or just html?)
 * there was reply in willage pump: generaly no such support, something possible when are you 'trusted developer'
 * so i expect for begin we will develop something outside wikipedia and just use it's picture output for wiki articles, maybe later can as for closer relation Tblazko 09:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Tblazko 06:52, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Former countries
I am a manager of WikiProject Former countries, which aims to improve the quality and accessibility of entries on former states. This of course includes the creation of suitable maps and I was just considering the creation of a map-making subproject to handle this, before I discovered your project. Our two projects should definitely work together. - 52 Pickup 09:27, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, we should do that. Perhaps you could still make a taskforce for creating maps of former countries. A single map of a country is different from a historical atlas. It should be possible to make maps giving an overview of the evolution of a state.--Daanschr 15:13, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Where did you get this from? These borders are very accurate. Even the Dutch coastline is perfect. The house of my parents is now 20 km from the coast, but it used to be only a few km. This map gives the exact distance.--Daanschr 15:44, 26 October 2006 (UTC)



This map came from a site in Mainz. Quite a few maps have been made from these images for the Dutch and German wikis (eg. de:Bild:Map-deutsches-kaiserreich.png and nl:Afbeelding:DuitseBond1860namenpng.png), and I am now making new maps (see User:52 Pickup/Maps) and improving on what has already been made. Later on, I would like to be able to work with GMT so I could make maps like this brilliant example: de:Bild:MarkBrandenburg.png. Also, you might like to sign up at Wikipedians/Cartographers.

At the moment, I have been placing some of my images on the Atlas portal, only because it seemed like the right place to put them - so a dedicated historical atlas would be fantastic. You are right, there is a difference between individual country maps and an atlas, so there is still a clear need to distinguish somewhere between our two projects. I will go ahead and set up the taskforce, which is where both projects should intersect. - 52 Pickup 14:04, 27 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I have seen many examples of worldmaps on Wikipedia using the examples of the university of Mainz.


 * I agree that we should cooperate. We could use eachothers maps as examples to spare work.--Daanschr 14:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I've created a new department: WikiProject Former countries/Cartography. This is the point where our two projects should meet. It's still under construction, but it's a start. - 52 Pickup 17:14, 29 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Tblazko send me an email that he can't create software with having a free available system as example. Perhaps it would be good to make a historical atlas with simple software: one map after the other, without difficult features. Do you know a solution?--Daanschr 11:28, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * misunderstanding, i said will not create new system before will be clear what is required and before checking existing available systems (to use them directly or extend if required)
 * one of open questions is also limitation to any concrete platform (operating system, windows in my case) or must be platform independent
 * (see my previous comments, also at project page) Tblazko 14:26, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know what the effect will be of choosing Windows or something independent. I use Windows at my computer. I could download other systems as well to replace Windows.--Daanschr 16:58, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

The two free programs that I have been using for making maps is Gimp (similar to Photoshop) and Inkscape (SVG editor). Within the confines of Wikipedia, I don't think that it is possible to make one map serve more than one purpose. Not sure if this answers your question. - 52 Pickup 12:35, 30 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I have major problems with GIMP at the moment. The biggest problem is that when i uninstall GIMP and i reinstall it after shutting down my computer, then the old settings of GIMP are still on my computer. I have wrecked the programm, so it can't perform anymore. Do you know how i can restore everything to what it was before? A problem is that filling in a colour doesn't work anymore and i don't know how i can revert it. At first, i could use filling in a colour, but at that stage i couldn't use colours which where not in the original picture.--Daanschr 21:26, 30 October 2006 (UTC)


 * maybe i do not understand you well, are you for creating of one completely new map in any graphics editor for avery new purpose?
 * please look at maps.google.com (press 'map' button there) - this is vector map what is in database (stored somewhere inside google) - you can choose details you want
 * we should create something of this kind - surely more simple in first versions - f.e. my initial plan are just country borders - but there will be extra information comparing to maps.google and that is date validity of data = you will see state of the world in date you will choose
 * maybe initial system should create just b&w pictures you will paste to any graphics editor and fill by colors you want there - or combine more together to create animated gif
 * question for me how to fill world history maps database different way than historians will write border point coordinates in numerical form -> how do you imagine system for historical maps creation from user's (historians) side? Tblazko 15:06, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know what is possible, so i tried to introduce something simple, if something difficult doesn't work.
 * Google Maps is a good example of what is possible. That would work for me.
 * Creating historical maps could be in different ways:
 * Copying an existing example of a map and work on it in GIMP, or in a program that you created.
 * Drawing maps. Before +/- 1900 for the world and +/- 1550 in Europe, there were no fixed borders, so it is okay to just draw a line for the aproximate size of a country or nation.
 * Using coordinates will probably take a long time. It took me lots of time to get the words on the map of the Roman Empire. It would be better to make it in GIMP or Inkscape. Inkscape is vector based, this could have the disadvantage that maps turn out to be very ugly. Ugly maps can be made better by spending much of time on it. Using coordinates could be possible, perhaps a system where lines can be drawn from one coordinate to another.
 * Another method could be possible, but then it should be explained to me and to other users.--Daanschr 16:58, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * thanks, this is kind of comments i like to hear first (and from more cartographers if possible) Tblazko 11:07, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Project directory
Hello. The WikiProject Council has recently updated the WikiProject Council/Directory. This new directory includes a variety of categories and subcategories which will, with luck, potentially draw new members to the projects who are interested in those specific subjects. Please review the directory and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. Also, I note that yours is a comparatively new project. You may be interested in the WikiProject Council/Guide, which has a lot of information regarding project organization from several of the most successful WikiProjects. It is my hope that all the changes to the directory can be finished by the first of next month. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 17:58, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

You might be interested in this
Commons:Category:Old Ordnance Survey map images


 * Would you like to join this project?--Daanschr 08:20, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Volunteer
I think I want in on this project. It sounds very similar to a personal project/hobby I've been working on for the last several years (progress has been painfully slow). I don't know what help I can offer, so feel free to ask about my experience. I have a lot of ideas, mostly on the programming side of the map drawing equation (the other side being artistic), kind of like scripts or something, but I've always been working from the ground-up, so let me know something (I'll be watching this page). Xaxafrad 06:08, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I am a historian and know nearly nothing of programming. Tibor is a programmer. You could ask him about what is needed at the moment.--Daanschr 11:09, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Abstraction
I thought of this system as I was trying to fall asleep last night. I hope it makes sense...

Using a hand written (or script assisted) test file containing such entries as:
 * City name	 			  
 * Jericho		-9000		-2000			32, 35
 * Catal Hoyuk	-7000		-5000
 * Ur
 * Lagash

One function, perhaps called AddCity, accepts arguments and writes a new city entry into the "hand written" script/database. This file can be text edited, or created entirely with support programs. Besides adding basic cities, other functions will add entries about conquests, occupations, annexation, migration events, army marches, and other such events.

With this list, a separate interpreter program can read the entries and create a set of point-based (lon/lat coordinates) timeframe databases. In the ancient past, a resolution of 10-25 years is the default (if 1 frame=20 years, then 100y=5f, 50f=1000y, 12000y=600f or 24 seconds of animation for all of recorded history and then some, at the default time-resolution). These generated timeframe databases would contain one line for each city, label, polygon, battle, volcanic eruption, what-have-you.

Yes, I'm talking about the potential to have 12,000-120,000 databases each with information for the whole world (though, realistically, the DBs for 10,000-4,000 BC will be necessarily diminutive). The script interpreter can eventually be expanded to add some fancy records to a time frame (such as a user submitting a new city, and given a certain culture as the "owner", then if the underlying land is otherwise unoccupied, it will automatically draw an reasonably sized circle around, or if the underlying land is occupied, then it would automatically pick a type of color blend (keep things extendible, lot's of nested if logic can clean it all up later).

Desired output occurs when a user submits a generation command consisting of a region ("mesopotamia", "central europe", "albania", "dacia", etc), a time frame (-320, 10, 1000-1499, etc). Other optional parameters should have suitable default values, parameters such as toggling the display of cities, or cities of certain sizes, kingdoms/empires, city labels, geographic labels (ocean only, ocean+river, mountains, etc).

GMT output is in PostScript, which is a text based file format, allowing us to scan and edit it directly, should we want. Conversion to gif or svg can be considered post-processing. Xaxafrad 00:42, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * It would be good to have aditional maps, that can give an alternative version of history. Sometimes it is not sure of whole regions wether these belonged to a state for a century or not.


 * Please elaborate. I don't see why alternate views of events can't be supported in some way. Xaxafrad 04:08, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * It would be good to first make an awful lot of maps and then check for factual inacuracies. For alternative views, it would be good to have some kind of footnotes to the map. But i don't know the technical limitations for it.--Daanschr 09:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * It will be very hard to give city sizes. Ranges given by experts widely contradict eachother. A common solution for this is to only make the capital of a country a specific size. Perhaps it would be an idea to give all cities of more than +/- 100,000 or 50,000 inhabitants extra significance and to do the same with cities of more than +/- 1,000,000 inhabitants. Giving the exact sizes of cities will only be possible in the 19th, 20th and 21st centuries.--Daanschr 08:02, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't expect exact sizes, but something representative of relative importance. Like the difference between a town and a city, or between 5,000 people and 50,000 people. Xaxafrad 04:08, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Sounds good.--Daanschr 09:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Secondary abstraction
Let us imagine a web server showing a world map with buttons below (or to the side or wherever) to control auto-mation, or step-by-step progression, and other fancy controls, including a variable step value (1, 2, 5, 10, 20, 100 years, depending on the period of history, I want this thing to go back deep, generations of millions of people across the world produced very little innovation, but they were still people, and eventually to turn into a geologic timescale showing orogenic and tectonic events).

One may want to watch a certain period of history at various rates. Watching European sailors and other explorers throughout time draw paths across our map at the speed of (24fps, 1s=1yr, 24f=1yr, 24f=12m, 2f=1m, 1f for every two weeks). To have a program draw such a series of frames, it would have to have a series of points, landing sites, perhaps separated in time by weeks and months, though for modern day military campaign animations, a daily and even hourly resolution may be desired. Then the program will have to interpolate intermediary points.


 * Theme maps could be an idea. We can have the main set of maps showing the political situation and the change in geography and aditional theme maps and maps with alternative versions.--Daanschr 09:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

A great consideration is how to represent data used to create such frames. I believe a text based list of events, given in a specific syntax, drawn from whatever source a user wants to specify, somebody's webpage, a local file, or a subpage in Wikipedia's userspace, can control the plotting of all items (including national boundaries) on a blank map. Using the concept of layers would provide great versatility if we could design a program to translate text into a graphic file usable by GMT for overlaying. I believe this is possible, but I have only the faintest inkling if how to define a layer of data in terms GMT would understand.

On a world scale, the age of exploration, for example, would make a nice animation. If one already exists, what are it's shortcomings (assuming it can be found)? It may not show a particular area, focusing only the Atlantic or Pacific, or it leaves out a semi-notable explorer. I would like to put together a program or (web) script that gives a user the power to select, from this initial world-view, and zoom into any subregion, provided something notable happened there (watching a corner of the Amazon during the pre-historic period would be rather boring, all we could say about that region is that hunter-gatherer tribes were everywhere; it would be more informative to then describe changes in river courses, mountain ranges, and coastlines in a geologic timeframe (though we could put together layers showing the extant ranges of various species and families of species)).

On to the programming side of the equation, I currently don't have the skills to write the scripts necessary to command GMT to overlay topographic, national, imperial, language or any other layers, but I should within a few weeks (2-3 months at the latest, maybe). Though GMT's layering capabilities still leaves the actual appearance of the layers to be determined elsewhere. I wish I could offer an example of what I'm imagining, because it's hard to describe.

In order to produce a series of static maps that can be converted into an animated GIF (or MNG?), GMT needs to be fed the raw materials. These materials will largely be text based, though written by an iterative script. I haven't investigated the structure of the (supplied with GMT's installation package) topographic data file, but I believe it's a long, long list of coordinates, each with an elevation value in feet. GMT reads a different color palette table (.cpt, plain text) file to determine which colors to assign the various elevations, thus one can use any color desired for mountain tops, followed by any other color, customizable for the whole scale.

GMT is highly flexible, but I think our goals will require only a subset of GMT's capabilities. One first goal can be the relative recreation of the oft-modified blankworldmap.gif using GMT syntax. With time, I could hash out GMT scripts that will produce blank maps of subregions. The process of creating layers can be automated to some degree, whereby users can submit their own hand created layers (a program can probably be written to convert a .gif file to the GMT layer format).


 * I can't say anything about GMT. I need to experiment with the program.--Daanschr 09:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Before diverging into the layers topic too far, I should take a step back and summarize. I think layers should be created by a script which reads down a text file and places points, labels, and flood-filled regions where they should go. The syntax of this text file will determine what can be drawn on our animated maps for the entirety of history. The interpreting program will start crude, but as development progresses on both the program and the source-file syntax (this source file is where verifiability takes place), fancier widget placement tools should evolve.

I've already started a rudimentary process of picking out certain events from the articles on the 10th, 9th, and 8th milleniums, and I hope to move on to the articles on centuries and decades. Here's my list so far (it obviously needs treating before being script readable):


 * 11500-10000bc, wooden buildings in chile
 * 11500-10000bc, pottery vessels in japan
 * 11500-10000bc, dogs and goats domesticated, bow and arrow
 * 10000bc, world population: 4-5 million hunter-gatherers, spread across all continents, and Lapita migration moving across the pacific, though population was probably concentrated on the coastal, river valley, and plains areas
 * 10000bc, beginnings of agriculture in fertile crescent, but not practiced with earnest until around 8000bc
 * 10000bc, end of wurm glaciation, find the farthest extand and extrapolate some rate of retreat
 * 10000-9000bc, people start living in jericho
 * 10000-9000bc, azilian culture occupies spain, france, switzerland, belgium, and scotland
 * 10000-9000bc, magdalenian culture in france
 * 10000-9000bc, first occupation in norway
 * 10000-9000bc, jomon culture in japan uses pottery
 * 10000-9000bc, pottery also used in korea
 * 10000-9000bc, mesopotamia hosts three or more linguistic groups, including sumerian and semitic sharing a "common" political and cultural way of life
 * 10000-9000bc, goat is domesticated in persia
 * 9700bc, lake agssiz forms
 * 9500bc, ancylus lake forms
 * 9000bc, Göbekli Tepe built, presumably a pre-agricultural hunter-gatherer temple, possibly where the first wheat was domesticated
 * 9000bc, agriculture spreads throughout fertile crescent
 * 9000bc, pottery spreads
 * 9000bc, larger settlements arise along salt and flint trade routes
 * 9000bc, beginning of settlement of mediterranean isles
 * 8700-8400bc, maglemosian culture in britain
 * 8500-7370bc, Jericho population is about 2000, on 6 acres
 * 8000bc, world population: around 5 million
 * 8000bc, pig domesticated in china and turkey
 * 8000bc, dog domesticated in asia
 * 8000bc, Nevali Cori settled in eastern Turkey, on the shores of the euphrates
 * 8000bc, Göbekli Tepe abandoned and purposefully covered with soil
 * 8000bc, Sagalassos settled


 * The articles on Wikipedia are too inaccurate. We need to use books primarily as sources.--Daanschr 09:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I hope you can see where I'm going here. Feel free to edit this list mercilessly, the longer it gets, the better. Eventually, the items can be categorized, the list filtered, events plotted, and maps generated. In addition to this list, an auxiliary definition list can information about everything inside wiki-links, but in the language of this potential map generator. In the definition file (text) will be coordinates for various points (cities, battles, etc), polygons (extant areas, zones of control), and their labels and placements. A GUI interface program can probably be written to display and edit this information more easily.

If there are any unclear points, just edit them within the body of text (cut a paragraph in two if you have to, it probably should've been two paragraphs anyway, I didn't really plan this structure, it evolved this way).

PS: I apologize for the sometimes ambiguous nature of my speech. I use "script" and "program" somewhat interchangably, but I think my meaning remains mostly clear (but I could be wrong, my meaning might get quite obscured if my audience has firm preconceptions of the words "script", "program", and other words). Xaxafrad 04:08, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * English is not my first language, so i will not be able to see the difference often if you use the language creatively.--Daanschr 09:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Existing historical world maps
Since the goal of this project is to make maps for the world, it would be a good idea to compile all the available free to use historical maps of the world into one list in order by date. When this gets large enough it can be moved to its own page. Other lists should be made of maps of regions/countries/continents also ordered by date.


 * The Perry-Castañeda Library Map Collection at the Library of the University of Texas has a huge collection of public domain historical maps. Many of these have been loaded onto Wikimedia Commons already. There are a large number of free maps at the commons, in Category:Old maps and Category: maps and their various sub-categories.

Hmmm... is this a commons-only template? Alternately, check out the early and pre-neolithic maps in the Funnelbeaker culture article; maps such as those two should be recreatable as mere frames in a mesolithic animation sequence. Only two layers need defining for GMT to produce those maps: one for the colors, and one for the text. My current goal is to recreate said maps, using an interchangable scripting langauge (I guess I wish I was JRR Tolkien). Xaxafrad 04:13, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I think you may be able to bring the europe template across to wikipedia. I will copy it across just to show it here.. --Astrokey 44 13:10, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * 820: Image:World 820.png
 * 1340-1600: ,
 * 1600s:
 * 1700-63:
 * 1772:
 * 1820:
 * 1840: Image:BlankMap-World-1840.png
 * 1861: Image:BlankMap-World-1861.png
 * 1866: Image:BlankMap-World-1866.png, Image:Imperio Ruso.PNG
 * 1872: Image:BlankMap-World-1872.png
 * 1897: Image:British Empire 1897.jpg
 * 1898: Image:World 1898 empires colonies territory.png
 * 1905: Image:Kolonialbesitz.png
 * 1910: Image:World 1910.jpg
 * 1914: Image:World War I 1914 08 04.png
 * 1914-18: (WWI) : Image:WWI.png, Image:WWI-re.png
 * 1918: Image:World War I 1918 05.png,
 * 1920: Image:World 1920 empires colonies territory.png
 * 1921: Image:BritishEmpire1921.png, Image:BlankMap-World-1921.png
 * 1922: Image:1922 world map.png
 * 1936: Image:World 1936 empires colonies territory.png
 * 1939-45 (WWII) : see commons:Category:World maps of World War II
 * 1945: Image:Colonization 1945.png
 * 1957: Image:BlankMap-World-1957.png
 * 1959: Image:Cold War Map 1959.png
 * 1980: Image:Cold War Map 1980.png
 * 1985: Image:BlankMap-World-1985.png
 * 1993-2006: old version of current world map before Montenegro's independence
 * 2006: Image:BlankMap-World.png


 * Your idea on listing all the free-to-use maps is good. The problem is that there are too little of these maps. For this project to become a succes, a the majority of information has to be taken from historical atlases in bookform and historybooks. This will probably not break the copyrights, because historical atlases and historybooks contradict eachother. We will create our own version of what could have happened in the past.--Daanschr 08:01, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes I noticed that there werent many world maps pre-1800 available on commons - historical atlas style, rather than old maps. There are a fair amount of regional/country maps if you look for them though. I still think that there should be an intermediate step of making and organising all the maps for the time periods needed so they can be checked and discussed before they are put into the program which you are thinking of. This would of course take a huge amount of time - probably several years. --Astrokey 44 08:12, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I am sympathetic to the Expert retention. For me, the main effort should be to maintain verifiability and objectivity. This requires much of research before a debate can take place. However, debates should not uphold the proces of producing maps too much. I have been nuts with historical maps since my early teens, so i have required a considerable expertise (to be unmodest), so i can easily detect the main mistakes. It would be good to have a comission who temporarily approve maps, the factual accuracy can be discussed some more at organized debates.--Daanschr 08:27, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The two atlases you just downloaded are very useful. We have a good database already for making maps.--Daanschr 14:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes they're a fantastic resource. What I would like to see to begin with is a historical atlas on commons similar to the regular atlas which User:Electionworld has created at Atlas --Astrokey 44 09:05, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * User:52 Pickup is working on maps of former countries in his WikiProject Former countries/Cartography. He could be of assistence in creating this database. I would prefer to help Tibor and Chris, by producing maps similar to the program Centennia has produced. A database of maps can be great asset though. So that would be good to have.--Daanschr 11:07, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Using GMT
Remember, virtually everything you see on these maps are configurable: the distance scale can be toggled, or displayed in km or mi (and probably both), the evelation is surely has the same options, the degree marks on the edges can be set to any interval, or toggled, the national borders, points, labels, and rivers can also be toggled, and so on


 * The whole wide world, could easily be scaled larger, minus the watermark, and in any one of about two and a half dozen other map projections
 * Gray toned topology to emphasize area of interest
 * Alexander's empire
 * A basic, 4 color polity map
 * Same as above, but different
 * Possibly the reasonably closest zoom level?
 * Basic map showing a single military campaign
 * Here's an example with an inset; kinky! I love insets, I think sooo many Wikipedia articles need maps with insets.

Besides images, there's a tutorial on the category talk page about overlaying a topographic data file onto a map using GMT, complete with code.

Outside of GMT images, map was derived from  one. It will be a grand project to write a program that could read the latter, and then produce the script necessary to make GMT produce the former (though that particular function is actually outside the scope of a program intended for producing animated historical maps)...But now that I think about it, maybe I'm working outside the scope of this Wiki-project. Maybe if I ever build a tool that can help you guys out, I'll come back (the project, I mean, not Wikipedia).

(BTW, does anyone know how to link to a commons image with wiki brackets rather than [url brackets] ?) Xaxafrad 08:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * type commons:Image:Balkan topo blank.jpg to get commons:Image:Balkan topo blank.jpg --Astrokey 44 13:06, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

In recently browsing the GMT mailing list, someone offered a link to a now defunct program, a Windows interface for GMT for Windows. If written in Visual Basic, I could take it over (though I won't say how fast progress would be made). Xaxafrad 09:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * This program is great!--Daanschr 09:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * seems for us is mirone (like simple map editor) solution generaly similar to google-earth case, maybe a bit more simple (in few basic functions i tested and understood) but also generaly usable to create boundaries graphics way, probably the best daan will find time really try it and discuss later Tblazko 12:28, 8 January 2007 (UTC)


 * My final paper is not going the way i want it, so i can't take any other responsibilities at the moment. I will tell you when i am done writing on it, but in the meantime, you will have to cooperate with Chris.--Daanschr 15:57, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * it's clear, have time Tblazko 08:53, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I've gotten some basic plots going that read a simple  text file. My text file has 8 cities in it. That's all. This baby hasn't even learned how to crawl yet. The source code can be seen here: commons:Category talk:GFDL-GMT/CodePage1. The whole thing won't work as a batch file due to the Linux awk command for processing text files for cities.ps, but it'll still produce the other plots. (please note: awk and grep aren't additional software, they come with virtually all distributions of Linux) Xaxafrad 09:36, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

History atlas at commons
As some of you might have noticed, I started the Wikimedia atlas at commons. Each of the country pages has - when maps are available - a historical section. Together they form an historical atlas. I have made the choice to include former nations at the pages of present countries. E.g. The Ottoman Empire will be available at the Turkey page and when relevant maps of other countries that belongend to the Ottoman Empire. The same goes for the Inca empire, which can be found at Atlas of Peru as well as at Bolivia. I would be pleased if you could assist in the building of this atlas. BTW. The right box at the atlas pages gives space to add some historical nations, e.g. the Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire, but I wouldn't prefer that. Electionworld Talk?  12:59, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Alternately, it seems this project is really a subset of the Atlas portal on commons. Perhaps we should redesign ourselves as a history-oriented atlas portal? Maybe move away from the geographic presentation in favor of a time-based layout. Xaxafrad 06:27, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know exactly what you mean. I think that this project page is only the workplace out of which the historical atlas will emerge. The name historical combines both time (history) and geography (atlas). Of course, there is a difference between unrelated single maps as in an original atlas in bookform or the historical atlas at commons and our project, where the evolution states and other themes will be projected in time in a standardized framework comparable to what Centennia produced in 1994. Of course a traditional historical atlas can be produced as well. This project could do both, so there will not be double work in the creation of maps of the right quality.
 * So, my proposition is to split this project into two sections: one for help creating a database of historical maps on the atlas created by Electionworld and one for creating a kind of historical atlas like Centennia.--Daanschr 09:44, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Looks fine, the historical maps by country would be in the country entries and the atlas would be completed with entries for the historical atlas not by country. what I could do is change the blue box in the atlas entries and add a historical section. I started a world historical maps section at Historical atlas. What kind of entries should be created? Time periods (time-bases layout), continents? Please advise me? BTW I started the atlas in Wikipedia, but there were strong arguments against the atlas in Wikipedia (non-encyclopedic). Therefore I moved the entries to commons. Electionworld Talk?  10:40, 13 December 2006 (UTC)


 * An atlas non-encyclopedic? Wikipedia is becoming too much bureaucratic. Perhaps we can do the sections of the historical atlas on Commons. The maps could be divided in different entries: time, place and theme. A single map could be placed in several entries. I like flexible solutions.--Daanschr 12:38, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I didn't start the debate on non-encyclopedic. See further down. Electionworld Talk?


 * Of course. I already imagined that :-) --Daanschr 13:58, 13 December 2006 (UTC)


 * do i understand it well commons is list of pictures? inside http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Electionworld/Atlas:Belgium i see just various image/png, nothing like http://ortelius.maproom.psu.edu/dcw_data/belgium2pts.txt (what should be (by inserting into GMT script) changed to map picture not just alone but combined with coordiantes of anything else = just one main data source for map of belgium only, also for map of belgium in whole europe etc. etc.) Tblazko 14:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I do not understand the question? Yes, the entries at commons (start at Atlas) are files with maps and a short description, including historical maps (compare Atlas of Morocco. I cannot visit the Ortelius maproom. Electionworld Talk?  10:40, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Structure of the historical atlas
The advantage of bringing it into commons is that the images can be uses througout all versions of Wikipedia. I would like to suggest the following structure of the historical atlas. One remark on beforehand: Single maps should be placed in all relevant entries. The historical atlas could have sections by place, times and themes (see above). It would be integrated in the Atlas, making it an integral geographical and historical atlas. I could start making empty entries with the basic layout for each entry. Each entry would have the same blue navigation box. Electionworld Talk?  13:05, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Places do fit in the country entities. We could add some historical nations, but I do not think that is really necesary. Maybe we could add an index of historical countries referring to the present country the maps can be found.
 * Times: what would you think of millennia before christ, centennia after christ. I would suggest to only add maps that concern more than one modern country. The history sections of the Atlases of the contininents should be moved to the times sections.
 * Themes: what kind of themes would be relevant for the historical atlas? Most of them could fit into the Times sections, I think. I am interested in suggestions.


 * In order to get the interest of the public, it would be good to have time frames like Antiquity, Medieval age, Age of Renaissance, Early Modern Age, 20th Century etc. Themes could be Economy, Religion, several cultural aspects like Famous artists, Monastic Orders, Socialism etc. Different regions could have different time frames. For the muslim world, a difference can be made between pre-islamic and islamic. The Chinese divide their history in dynasties.--Daanschr 14:26, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Two kinds of historical atlases
I want to analyse the difference between the atlas on Commons and the kind of historical atlas that i intended to start and of which i have the impression that Tibor and Chris want to start as well. (This list below may be edited by others, it could be placed on the front page. I am not satisfied with the names as yet)

Atlas of single maps

 * Variety of formats
 * Several standards
 * Unspecified time frames
 * Maps of several regions and countries
 * Advantages over the standardized electronic historical atlas:
 * Specific regional themes can be given easily
 * Alternative visions can be easily given without much work

Electronic atlas

 * One format
 * Strict standardization
 * One regularly linear time frame
 * Only world maps which can be zoomed in just like Google Maps
 * Advantages over atlas of single maps:
 * When the atlas is working properly, then people will probably get very exited when the quality and the level of detail is good enough. So it can get lots of attention.
 * Standardization makes it easier to compare different regions. People can easily see which countries existed at the same time for instance and see how they develop.

It would be good to have both atlases at the same time and referring to eachother.--Daanschr 14:21, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I am working on the first form (that is inside my limits) but would like the second version to come into life. I would include the maps of the second version in the first version. Electionworld Talk?  15:33, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I can make some maps for your atlas.--Daanschr 08:14, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Chat session
Would it be an idea for those who work on the electronic atlas, to have a chat session? Chris can give us an idea on how GMT works and what is possible with it. I don't know how much time you both have, Chris and Tibor. I guess Tibor must be very busy.--Daanschr 08:14, 15 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Access to the laptop (my GMT environment) is somewhat limited. I've just gone through the process of collecting all the random notes and maps I've accumulated in various locations into one central, organized (and portable, between this family, internet computer and the much more powerful laptop). On my last synchronization (and biggest due to the reorganization) I ported over the wrong topographic data, and therefore missed my chance yesterday to actually produce any output. I'll be giving it another shot tonight, and that will be the end of the better part of my weekend, though I should have half a day tomorrow.


 * For the GMT example I'm currently working on reproducing, read this. It even provides a grep script that places text labels (that shortens the learning curve, woohoo). Getting the most out of GMT requires a good knowledge of Bash (or Csh) scripting. Xaxafrad 01:28, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Take your time. I still have to download Linux and GMT, but i am afraid that i will mess up again, so my neighbour needs to help me. We could have a chat session this year or next year. No need to hurry. We are all volunteers!--Daanschr 14:44, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Perhaps it would be an idea to do a monthly checkup to the main participants of this project, to ask if they are still satisfied with it. I want to suggest to do this at the first day of the month. This way we can ensure commitment and continuation, while it doesn't have to take much time. Of course when someone is not satisfied, then we can take some extra time to try to solve the problem. Also i would like to make an appeal that if some of us wants to leave this project, that he will contact us instead of leaving without noticing. Do you both agree with this?--Daanschr 15:51, 17 December 2006 (UTC)


 * That sounds good to me, though would it actually be necessary if we keep posting on this talk page randomly every 1-2 weeks? Xaxafrad 04:21, 25 December 2006 (UTC)


 * We don't need monthly checkups if the project is running well.--Daanschr 08:28, 25 December 2006 (UTC)


 * (without study your example) i just want note daan maybe will not need create own complicated scrips so will not need deep knowledge of shell or regex tools, he can receive pattern script will modify a bit, or he will just fill any web-form (like map's min-max coordinates) will create him new script (similar to previous created), he will just save and run it Tblazko 18:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * This way many other people can help as well, without having to know much about programming.--Daanschr 08:13, 19 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply anybody else would need to know the inner working details of most of our scripts. But when you get a hold of pre-written script, and you want to change something, I'll do my best to make it as easy as possible (mostly with an extensive variable declaration section at the top, with lots of comments). Eventually, I expect to see nothing but configuration files to be modified by end-users to control the finer working points (like the colors of land, water, rivers, etc). Or even a configuration script which asks questions and modifies the actual config file. Use your imagination. Xaxafrad 04:21, 25 December 2006 (UTC)


 * i have no problem with bash or grep but i just want to minimize needs for common users, also in ms.bat (he does not need install or set anything next for it) you can use simple variables:

set parameter1=-R0/10/50/55 pscoast -B0 %parameter1% -JM10i -G150/255/170 -Di -S0/200/255 -A1000/0/2 -K -Xc -Yc -I1/1/0/0/255 -I2/1/0/0/255 > map.ps
 * Tblazko 10:05, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * yes, i'm sorry, i'm busy a bit, but quite often reading discussion here
 * i'm glad second example from http://www.ucalgary.ca/~phillips/graphics/gmt/gmt.html contains real coordinates of cities, just i (or someone else) still did not create own example with some own borders
 * My apologies for sounding negative: in that example, I only found 4 cities, and major cities at that, in the New World. Those types of coordinates can be pulled with a script from a Wikipedia article of a list of cities. The more difficult cities to add to a coordinate table will be the ancient and destroyed cities. (but I could be wrong, and please correct me if I am) Xaxafrad 04:21, 25 December 2006 (UTC)


 * If an ancient city is a ruin, then there will be coordinates, otherwise there will be presumable places with coordinates.--Daanschr 08:28, 25 December 2006 (UTC)


 * daan, today i still do not think you really need linux, expect you will need instal gmt tools, gs (ghostscript - package for postcript - if you haven't other program (like GIMP) to convert .ps files (GMT creates .ps files) to something like .gif) and maybe unix shell (shell = command interpreter) (small part from cygwin project) (or instead of unix/linux shell probably can create scripts also in .bat dos/windows form)


 * I will try it out. GIMP can convert images to more then 20 different files like .gif.--Daanschr 14:21, 19 December 2006 (UTC)


 * For viewing and converting PostScript in Windows, I like to use Irfanview, it's free and simple, but I think the PostScript plugin has to be downloaded separately (but still free). Xaxafrad 04:21, 25 December 2006 (UTC)


 * My neighbour has downloaded ghostscript and the map is working.--Daanschr 08:28, 25 December 2006 (UTC)


 * i still did not make final proof for this thoughs, i downloaded and installed gmt tools and gs, but today i have just first basic test - hope will get to more this/next week
 * (i found i'm missing some maybe-not-so-necessary tools (like pnmflip, pnmcut and ppmtogif from examples - i can see, flip, cut and save-as-gif ppm files also manualy using freeware irfanview) to translate mentioned gmt examples (mentioned tools are probably from different tool package - pbmplus?))
 * anyway i'm (because of real coordinates in examples) actualy optimistic in output draw case, input-coordinates part still more open (still possible make something own, but looking for something already existing - btw. i have no reaction to my http://w3.ualg.pt/~jluis/m_gmt/ questions here) Tblazko 10:31, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * my gmt test was made
 * here is dos/windows example of script creates map.ps (of +- benelux area, with main river lines, in intermediate quality)
 * and two own lines (amsterdam-brusel-lynn)
 * it was necessary to install gmt tools and have two own files: doit.bat (script - two lines) and coordinates.xy (3 cities = 3 coordinates = 3 lines)
 * what in first try i do not know now is make own lines thin and solid (maybe easiset ask Xaxafrad - something else than W parameter?)


 * From the GMT documentation for psxy:

−Wpen  Set pen attributes for lines or the outline of symbols. [Defaults: width = 1, color = black, texture = solid]. pen is a comma delimetered list of width, color and texture, each of which is optional. width can be indicated as a measure (points, centimeters, inches) or as faint, thin[ner|nest], thick[er|est], fat[ter|test], or obese. color specifies a grey shade (0−255) or color (r/g/b, each in range 0−255; h-s-v, ranges 0−360, 0−1, 0−1; or c/m/y/k, each in         range 0−100%; or valid color name). texture is a combination of dashes ‘-’ and dots ‘.’.
 * So in the example below, to make the line thicker you can use '-Wthickblack', or maybe '-Wthick/black'


 * yes, i know this, just even with defaults (= no -W parameter) i see dash-lines (- - -), not solid ones, could you try doit.bat/coordinates.xy example (see down) and say your result? how to modify it to get really solid line? Tblazko 10:12, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Try this (I think I did something wrong the first time, because this didn't work until I played around with the river switches before coming back around to this for a second chance, when it worked *shrug*): -W10/255/0/0/solid Xaxafrad 16:58, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * yes, with -W10 it works, just 10 is not one-point thin one, right? Tblazko 18:37, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * i'm sorry _real_ problem was my incorrect transformation to bitmap:

gswin32.exe -sDEVICE=png16m -r100 -q -dNOPAUSE -dBATCH -sOutputFile=map.png map.ps
 * problem disapears when you remove -r100 parameter Tblazko 10:27, 29 December 2006 (UTC)


 * = todays result is:
 * - creation of maps from using gmt under windows is generaly possible (see mentioned problem with thin solid line - Xaxafrad, is it really problem?), i preffer now daan will try create .ps at his computer from following example and say if he is satisfied with output enough
 * - probably can concentrate to thoughts how daan will create something like example's coordinates.xy easiest way (to store them in a bit intelligent database), for now google earth idea fails, is there something else you can click to map to get coordinates?
 * generaly it is possible via gmt create any map picture (also in higher quality than example here, also with actual state borders), daan will draw points (in defined color) there and by own-created tool it will be translated to coordinates (in case of .gif precision of such solution is limited to pixel (point) size) - for begin good enough?
 * I would love to see us write a program to read two gif files (our original, and a copy sent back to us after marking up by Daan) and translate the differences into a text file, but that cumbersome solution would be of limited use. Ultimately, we should have a web interface for the masses that can read mouse clicks. Or lacking a web interface, I think I can use Python's Tc/Tkl package with the Tc/Tkl API provided by SmartWin++ to write a GUI frontend from relative scratch. If we follow this path, I'd like to retain as much native support for both Linux and Windows (we could possibly include the pbmplus package in our distro). Xaxafrad 04:21, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
 * sounds nice but wait till will be clear nothing existing (like mirone) is not good enough Tblazko 18:50, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
 * - output of such system will be any script (unix or windows - whatever, comparing to http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category_talk:GFDL-GMT example i preffer already 'concrete one' = even bigger (longer) but not need another aditional tools like grep) and some aditional files with coordinates, running such script historian/daan (with installed gmt toos) will get .ps file (expect you will agree .ps can easily translate to any .gif and finaly publish in wikipedia)
 * (i still do not know any generaly-enough web-based gmt tools can use instead of localy installed gmt tools, also i haven't any free web-server where i can install and run any .exe files = i will not create such gmt-web-service - expect you will agree not necessary, at least for first version)
 * doit.bat:

pscoast -B0 -R0/10/50/55 -JM10i -G150/255/170 -Di -S0/200/255 -A1000/0/2 -K -Xc -Yc -I1/1/0/0/255 -I2/1/0/0/255 > map.ps psxy coordinates.xy -R0/10/50/55 -JM10i -W1/255/0/0/solid -O >> map.ps
 * coordinates.xy:

4.890950 52.373812 4.329999 50.830001  0.915722 50.949753
 * Tblazko 12:13, 22 December 2006 (UTC)


 * For simplicity, the -R and -J switch will inherit the last used value, thus:

psxy coordinates.xy -R -J -W1/255/0/0/solid -O >> map.ps
 * will still work. I think there are one or two other switches like that too. Xaxafrad 04:21, 25 December 2006 (UTC)


 * My neighbour will help me on saturday. I had problems with downloading the .ps map, so i will wait untill he is available.--Daanschr 13:11, 22 December 2006 (UTC)


 * i made test with getting coordinates file online and unfortunately it does not work, calling

psxy http://hatlas.php5.sk/example1.php -R0/10/50/55 -JM10i -W1/255/0/0/solid -O >> map.ps
 * it reports "Cannot open file http://hatlas.php5.sk/example1.php", hmmm Tblazko 09:52, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * there exists simple free http://www.chami.com/url2file/ can use to download http file to local disk but it is next program just for stupid copy, hmm Tblazko 11:13, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * so probably will prefer write all (= also coordinates) into one script file to make it easier download for final user (i must check size limits for .bat file in ms-case), or maybe can create one .zip file containing .bat and .xy files (needs make real test when necessary (internal note: what's zlib? http://hatlas.php5.sk/info1.php)) Tblazko 18:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * something like this:

pscoast -B0 -R0/10/50/55 -JM10i -G150/255/170 -Di -S0/200/255 -A1000/0/2 -K -Xc -Yc -I1/1/0/0/255 -I2/1/0/0/255 > map.ps psbasemap -Bg100m/g100m -R0/10/50/55 -JM10i -K -O >> map.ps echo 4.890950 52.373812 > %temp%\coordinates.xy echo 4.329999 50.830001 >> %temp%\coordinates.xy echo 0.915722 50.949753 >> %temp%\coordinates.xy psxy %temp%\coordinates.xy -R0/10/50/55 -JM10i -O >> map.ps rem del %temp%\coordinates.xy
 * Tblazko 09:56, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry guys, my internet connection was severed for the last week or so. As far as commitments go, I may be unavailable for brief periods, so if you leave a note on my talk page, I'll jump on it as soon as I get back to Wikipedia. Otherwise, please see comments scattered throughout the above.


 * Take your time. We are all volunteers, so we don't need to hurry.--Daanschr 08:28, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

I just figured out how to enclose boxes around lines of code: use a space as the first character of a line. And check out commons:Category talk:GFDL-GMT, maybe we can use that space to keep our GMT discussions from clogging up this talk page? Xaxafrad 04:21, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

More historians
I will socialize with other historians to get more recruits.--Daanschr 08:10, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia Day Awards
Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 19:50, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

February activity call
Tibor, Chris, are you still active, or is this project history?--Daanschr 19:55, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
 * hi daan, in fact i'm waiting for you will have time to start test map creation environment like mirone (it's author is alive and during last weeks made few new things and fixes) and will express your opinion if you can imagine work with it or something is unclear or absolutely different to your expectation Tblazko 09:10, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Did you find someone who would join us?--Daanschr 16:13, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * no, i just wanna say mirone author was ready fix some cases i found there
 * now i get tip to another one program (mapedit, note: there are more mapedits google will find, this one should be free in basic version), i plan have a look at it this week Tblazko 08:08, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * i got tip to gsmmapedit http://www.geopainting.com/en/ but very soon i found it's not free in any version = end of mapedit for us Tblazko 14:55, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
 * We also need to find new volunteers. Just the two of us is far too little.--Daanschr 11:23, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Hey guys, I'm still here, I'm just having a few personal issues: lost my job, mother-in-law's amping up the stress level, etc.  I think I just got an idea for using Python output to power GMT's plotting engine. I can even use some old code I wrote a long time ago (cool! Does that make me a real programmer?) for reading bitmap files. I gave up on it because the editing functions were blocking me, but I won't need to edit bitmaps, only produce ASCII output (that's easy!). I'll post a proof-of-concept once I code it (ETA: 1-3 months). Off-hand, does anyone know how to issue shell commands (to GMT, for instance) from Python on Linux, or if GIMP can convert PS to BMP (I think it can, and I'm sure I can find some other utility if it can't)? Xaxafrad 08:43, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi Chris, welcome back! You can convert .ps to .bmp with gimp (i just checked). What did you want me to test, Tibor?--Daanschr 11:32, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
 * if you have time please install mirone http://w3.ualg.pt/~jluis/mirone/ and, set up background window, try to draw something like polygon (line) in belgium area (or whatever else like simple test), save it, restart program, load your line back, play with zoom a bit; if you will have any problems please contact me by email with details (many tricks with line you can make using context menu on it) Tblazko 14:55, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
 * It seems I can only (easily) get Mirone running on Win NT or better, which means the laptop, and I should be able to work on that later this evening. Xaxafrad 22:40, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
 * programmer could take mirone like one of possible editors for historians, f.e. they can draw, save (in text x-y format) and import (colored) polygons = can have borders in vector/numerical form, if will be acceptable for them you need just overview what is possible there
 * (or generaly later if required we can support any other readable/documented vector format like ge.kml, acad.dxf) Tblazko 11:40, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * hi chris, if i can recommend wait with any real work till will be clear working style historians can accept and will need
 * sorry, no experience with python, how it is from historian's look? if we will use it they will need install something? Tblazko 15:15, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Like Matlab in Mirone's case, Python is a programming language. I'm not sure how those two languages compare, but I know enough Python to know it's easy to grasp and is extremely portable. Syntactically, Python lends itself to programming that is essentially self-documenting (variable creation and assignment is intuitive enough to be done on the fly, and with the right function names, it shouldn't be difficult to come up with something an end-user can interact with. In order to run a Python script (no compiling necessary), one only needs to install Python (installation should be a breeze), and enter the following at a command line: python myscript.py.


 * To illustrate Python's powerful simplicity, the code I used to open a bitmap formatted file (3-4 lines, plus 3-4 more error checking lines), read the bitmap header fields (16 fields, with 2-3 lines per field), process those returned values into easily accessible variables (an unnecessary, but helpful, 8 lines of code), create an ambiguously data-typed data array with one element representing each pixel in the bitmap (about 7 lines), read the ackbasswards bitmap format (BGR ordered, bottom-row-to-top-row, making translation from a linear byte format to a 2D array rather tricky) and load into the previously created array (about 7 more lines). In about 100 lines of code, hidden in functions far below the first 60 lines of the main function, pixel data has been prepared to be accessed by typing print pixelMap[0,479], and getting the RGB values of the first pixel stored in the bitmap. More evolved functions for analyzing and outputting are in development.


 * That's all I coded last night. It's not helpful to anybody but a developer, but it's a good start, I think. I found an animated gif of the 100 years war in France (it has a weird projection, which will hopefully be compensated for in Python), which I'm hoping to be able to break into frames, convert to bitmap (both with GIMP), open with my Python script, produce discrete files of xy coords defining territorial gains and losses (one file per territory), then have a series of functions (batch files, or shell script, likely, but possibly more Python code) provide a front-end to calling GMT and feeding the definition files in such and such desired sequence. In addition to area definition files, I anticipate state/polity/sovereignty/affiliation definitions as well (time periods, area ownership, colors, and stuff). Lots of little files, lots of work (but there should soon be programs to assist in the creation of such files).


 * So, yeah, working on the 100 Years War will be a good way to develop some kinky functions. Does anybody have some kinky ideas? The most immediately useful functions seems to be the ones that would identify squiggly text pixels for ignoring or replacing, and finding the locations of cities, outputting something like: Found the following 14 potential city dots. Enter -1 to ignore, or enter city names and long/lat coords.... One function (and it's child functions) will be needed to stretch the animated map to fit GMT's Mercator projection (or some other type of synchronizing). Then a set of functions would be needed to identify the English holdings around Bordeaux and Caen, the French holdings around Toulouse and back to the (Po, Rhine, Rhone?) river, and other such areas. And actually, that's all the Python development I can foresee at this point. Though I'll get to working on Mirone first. ;) (sorry for rambling) Xaxafrad 22:40, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Using Mirone
I've got Mirone and GMT installed per Mirone's instructions. However, I couldn't toggle national boundaries or rivers as I can when using GMT directly (that is, the full,high,int,low,crude resolution submenus were disabled). On the plus side, when I selected the cities layer, Mirone overlayed either major or other cities in the window. Any suggestions, or do the boundaries and rivers work in your situations? Xaxafrad 01:26, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
 * i do not know, maybe that is result of my complain to author about crash when i put high resolution to whole-world map (my idea now enabling depends on map size failed), older version had in help any parameter about reserved memory size (i do not see it there now); we can collect list of questions and ask author via email Tblazko 07:23, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
 * All the resolution settings were disabled when I selected the world map as the background. When I chose a tile, the crude, low, and int. resolutions became enabled (I haven't installed the high and full resolutions yet), but the whole program crashed silently (no error messages) when I selected one of them. :( Xaxafrad 01:38, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Please use standard colours
Folks:

I wish you luck in your endeavours. I would ask you to please try to use the standard colours at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Maps. At the very least, please use the standard blue for ocean, and do not use primary colours.

These selected colours are not only good (maybe even the best) for maps here, but many many other maps have been made using these colours and it would, of course, be nice to show consistence from article to article. Thanks, MapMaster 04:23, 14 March 2007 (UTC) P.S.  Thanks,  Xaxafrad, for your kind comments!!

GMT examples
I haven't yet read this site (UofBergen) in depth, but in addition to a dozen or more example scripts, they also have links to lots of other GMT resources. Maybe of interest to someone or two? Xaxafrad 07:05, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Continuation
Tibor, Chris, are you still active? I like to continue with the project, though my final paper is still not ready. I want to finish it in july. My professor is a real pain in the b... For now, i hope to get active again with the historical atlas and to make plans. Though, i can't take too much responsibility. This year i will have to find a job and a home. Afterwards i will try to give the attention to this project that will give a gaurantee of succes.

What is needed for succes? More people who join. More coordination. Appointment with tasks. I am thinking about starting a recruitment department in cooperation with other Wikiprojects in order to enhance quality and commitment to projects. This i will not do now. At the moment my final paper comes before everything else, afterwards i will get a job and a new home. So, for the moment i will be here passively. Posting some messages and nothing else.

I was trying out the GIMP today and got enthusiastic again. It is working!!! I will continue with my map program. I saw that the map of the Roman Empire is used very often in Electionworld's atlas. It took only 2 hours for me to make that map. It would be easy to make whole series of maps. Even within less time. But it will solely be a leisure time activity without any commitment to it.--Daanschr 09:36, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * My final paper is finished and i will now look for a job, in the meanwhile and hopefully in the future as well, i will have time to be more active.--Daanschr 12:27, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

What are you trying to do ?
Hello, I was wondering what you guys are trying to achieve exactly with this project ? I use GMT a bit (on Windows Vista, XP (with cygwin) and Ubuntu), maybe I can contribute. However first I would need to understand what you are trying to do? Are you trying to create a clickable wiki image map of the world for historic maps ? The problem on wikipedia is you can't develop anything because you can only use HTML, CSS, and wiki syntax. I also use DIVA which may be closer to what you guys are looking for ? I still need to understand it a bit better though. However much more data is available in shapefile and dBASE format than in GMT grd format. GMT is mainly good for plotting raster elevation, ocean depths, or fairly simple coast lines and water bodies. Jackaranga 15:13, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi Jackaranga. I am afraid that i'm the only one left. Chris and Tibor have left. Momentarily, i have plenty of time, doing a job where you have a lot of spare time and an internet connection. I would like to continue making the historical atlas. I am a history student. I know a lot about history, but hardly anything abouit computers. Tibor and Chris were the experts on that. I can't help you at all with the computerlanguage, it is like abacadabra to me. The idea behind this atlas was to make an atlas which runs like a video, which you can put still anytime you want and with clickable maps. Clickable, like in pushing on a text with the mouse button in the map and being able to acces a Wikipedia article through that. We could be part of the historical atlas of 52 Pickup and Electionworld (see front page). I have started a recruiting project, in order to recruit for WikiProjects (see my user page), perhaps it could be helpful to get WikiProject historical atlas running. Though that one is silent as well, ironically.--Daanschr 09:42, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

openlayers
i found something http://www.openlayers.org

time for programmers have a closer look at it from our point of wiew (can display own data over it? see http://www.openlayers.org/dev/examples/draw-feature.html from http://www.openlayers.org/dev/doc/examples.html and can call it from freewebhosting? see http://trac.openlayers.org/wiki/FrequentlyAskedQuestions#ProxyHost notes)
 * searching for XmlHttpRequest case i found any source for unsafeXMLHttpRequest http://www.downloadtube.com/dhtml-scripts-library/XmlHttpRequest-Bypass-Security.html, probably corresponding to http://userscripts.org/scripts/review/1641 what maybe should fix possible future problems (?), can see also http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2005/11/09/fixing-ajax-xmlhttprequest-considered-harmful.html

and for others study it's license than (BSD License is who?) Tblazko (talk) 19:26, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I will study it when i got time for it. Martin will read this talk page and than come with his opinion.Daanschr (talk) 20:04, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Beagle Channel Cartography
Take a look at this article: Beagle Channel cartography since 1881, shouldnt it bet part of this WP? Dentren |  Ta lk  10:40, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Dentren, this project is inactive and hasn't produced anything yet. Of course, the borders between Chile and Argentine will be looked at if this project is ever to restart.Daanschr (talk) 18:25, 15 August 2008 (UTC)