Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Hong Kong/Archive 6

Archives
I am simply suggesting that this page probarly should be archived more often. I have alreday suggested this months earlier, and I think that because of the lengths, my suggestion was accidently skipped. Does anyone agree?--Leolisa1997 (talk) 05:46, 20 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Good idea. User:MiszaBot II can automatically archive messages after a set period of time. --Joowwww (talk) 11:13, 20 September 2008 (UTC)


 * What shall we set it at? 15 days? --Leolisa1997 (talk) 13:47, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I think at least 30 days would be better. This talk page is not really that active for 15 days.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 15:29, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Great. Do you want to tell User:MiszaBot IIthat?--Leolisa1997 (talk) 10:48, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Image needs replacement
Hello all...

The image used in the Queen's College, Hong Kong article's infobox, specifically Image:100 0221.JPG, has a little bit of a licensing issue. The image was uploaded back in 2005 when the rules around image uploading was less restrictive. It is presumed that the uploaded was willing to license the picture under the GFDL license but was not clear in that regard. As such, the image, while not at risk of deletion, is likely not clearly licensed to allow for free use in any future use of this article. If anyone has an image that can replace this, or can go take one and upload it, it would be best.

You have your mission, take your camera and start clicking.--Jordan 1972 (talk) 00:05, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Cantonese wikiproject?
Is there a WP:Canton or Cantonese WikiProject? (dealing with the people, province, diaspora, etc) 09:32, 2 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.51.8.75 (talk)
 * I think not. Maybe you establish a Cantonese WikiProject, or participate in Cantonese Wikipedia. &mdash; HenryLi (Talk) 00:42, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

K-100
I donno what's happened on the K-100 article, seems the edits by User:122.54.251.136/User:122.54.241.207 et al. mixing the stuffs up and it there's really having the show on there, it should make another article instead of adding the non-related stuffs on the same page. (since the OrphanBot notifies me to aware this issue). Shinjiman &#8660; &#9832; 11:42, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It is not only K-100. Enjoy Yourself Tonight and ATV News are under similar attack. &mdash; HenryLi (Talk) 04:55, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Userbox for teritiary education institutes
I have made some userboxes for tertiary students. I will later make userboxes for Chu Hai College of Higher Education, Open University of Hong Kong and Hong Kong Institute of Vocational Education.

Do you think I should go on and create boxes like HKU SPACE and The Hong Kong Academy for Performing Arts etc.? Do you find the colour of these userboxes above match the institutes concerned? * Adding these userboxes does not make you fall into any category.

Please kindly give any comments.  Nxn 0405 chl  18:41, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Woo...Good job. May I suggest that instead of using "studies", maybe also add on "studied" for alumni. TheAsianGURU (talk) 22:39, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It sounds nice, TheAsianGURU, but I will hear some more comments first. Thank you for your suggestion.  Nxn 0405 chl  14:40, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Just use a template parameter to switch between "studies" to "studied" if you decide to allow "studied" to be displayed on these userboxes. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 17:04, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Hong Qi Gong, I see your point and I wonder if you are thinking of something like this :

 Nxn 0405 chl  18:22, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah that's exactly what I'm talking about. But by the way, I think the wiki code you currently have in the template is missing something - notice how the next section below is indented. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 01:22, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I see the problem but I think what I can only do is to cancel to indent.  Nxn 0405 chl  03:19, 20 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I think that's quite good. But I don't really think that Polytechnic University is that dark - maybe a little lighter? - they use lighter shades at the university so that the text isn't too dull. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Leolisa1997 (talk • contribs) 11:42, 28 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh, and I suggest that you don't get too carried away doing ones for teachers and also every school we have in Hong Kong. Otherwise you'll be doing them for weeks.--Leolisa1997 11:59, 6 November 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Leolisa1997 (talk • contribs)

requested moves: Cantonese and Standard Cantonese
Cantonese and Standard Cantonese are both up for renaming at WP:RM 70.55.200.131 (talk) 16:51, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

The requestor's argument is not entirely without merit (see Talk:Cantonese), but he has also been editing Standard Cantonese, Cantonese, and Cantonese (disambiguation) as if the articles were already moved. Please keep watch on those articles and make sure the content reflect the current naming. The editing that the requestor is trying to make should only take place if the article moves are fulfilled. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 15:17, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Category:Hakka Hongkongers
Category:Hakka Hongkongers has been nominated for deletion at WP:CFD 70.55.200.131 (talk) 06:32, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Yue Chinese
Yue Chinese is up for renaming at WP:RM 70.55.86.100 (talk) 01:14, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

List of MTR stations
I am interested to bring this up to featured list status. But in doing so, I might have to change the layout of the page radically and it is something that I am not willing to do without first letting editors or relevant wikiprojects know. Any thoughts on that before I do anything to it?— Chris!  c t 00:49, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Although I'm not good at layouts, I have watchlisted the page and I can help out with the contents. OhanaUnitedTalk page 00:55, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * In my opinion the list on Light Rail stations is rather confusing, and I suggest adding a light rail system map. -- : Raphaelmak : [ talk ] [ contribs ] 11:59, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree. There is just too much information that hardly makes any sense about the Light Rail. A lgiht rail system map with a key might be rather useful. The key I'm talking about is coloured respective lines or arrows or whatever.--Leolisa1997 11:51, 6 November 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Leolisa1997 (talk • contribs)
 * I have some experience with featured list layouts (An example would be List of London Underground stations). Since no one objects, I will start working on it.— Chris!  c t 22:40, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Make sure you include which line(s) the station is in, otherwise it just looks like a big pile of list without much organization. OhanaUnitedTalk page 04:54, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Archiving (3rd Request)
I've requested three times to have this disucussion page archived by somebody, for, still being a novice, I hae no idea how to do it. Can somebody help and archive it, or maybe find a bot that could do it for us?--Leolisa1997 12:37, 11 November 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Leolisa1997 (talk • contribs)


 * I've added Miszabot to this page, it will (hopefully) start archiving in the next 24 hours. I've set it to archive discussions that are older than 30 days. --Joowwww (talk) 13:07, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Merging Education Department (Hong Kong) into Education Bureau
Do everyone agree merging Education Department (Hong Kong) into Education Bureau? -- Jack l  10:22, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Cantonese → Yue Chinese
Cantonese is up for renamimg to Yue Chinese at WP:RM 76.66.195.159 (talk) 03:43, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Category:Places in Hong Kong
It seems like most of the articles under this category are already categorised under Category:Areas of Hong Kong. Does anybody mind if I took the liberty and remove this categorisation from articles that are already thus categorised? Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 16:38, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Go 4 it. Benjwong (talk) 07:02, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Cantonese independence
Cantonese independence has been nominated for deletion. 76.66.198.171 (talk) 04:24, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Carnarvon Road, (加拿分道)
Carnarvon Road, Hong Kong has been nominated for deletion. 76.66.198.171 (talk) 05:22, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Merge/Rename/Split conservation-related articles
Currently, two conservation-related articles of Hong Kong could be found in Wikipedia: Country parks and conservation in Hong Kong and Marine parks in Hong Kong.

A piece of fact: marine parks is now a section in the CP&C page (with a main-article link). It reflects that the current naming system is confusing: I always feel that conservation includes country and marine park management. The title "Country parks and conservation" seems like putting a set and a subset into conjunction, which is either incomprehensive or overlapping.

At the same time, I would like to consider the division of labour in Agriculture, Fisheries and Conservation Department: country parks, marine parks and special areas are managed by one of their branch (the Country and Marine Parks Branch), and conservation and site of special scientific interest is by another (the Conservation Branch). Both country parks and marine parks are defined as "protected/designated pieces of land/water for people to visit and enjoy", which may or may not be considered as part of conservation. (On the other hand, referring to the full name of AFCD, it is not "Agriculture, Fisheries, Conservation, Country and Marine Parks Department".)

After a rough search for titles of articles on similar topics in other regions and countries, I propose three options for resolution:


 * 1) Merge all topics into one: Conservation in Hong Kong
 * 2) Put the content into two articles: Country and marine parks of Hong Kong and Conservation in Hong Kong
 * 3) Split into three articles: Country parks of Hong Kong, Marine parks of Hong Kong and Conservation in Hong Kong

Though I previously preferred the first option, I am now open to all three above. Please comment and discuss.

Notice that the current title Marine parks in Hong Kong, strictly speaking, does not follow the naming convention guideline of country-specific article. Most country-specific articles of national parks have the title "National parks of (place name)"--Dono (talk) 06:33, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Probably number 3 is the best. However you might be the only editor on these subjects. Benjwong (talk) 04:28, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

HK Cinema & TV
Is there an HK Cinema & TV task force? 76.66.196.229 (talk) 13:02, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * There is. See WikiProject Chinese-language entertainment Dengero (talk) 16:12, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Removeal of Politics Section in "Districts pages"
I suggest to remove the Politics section in Wan Chai District and Central and Western District because the information there is out-dated and can be found on the official website of the district council. Addaick (talk) 12:09, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Please do. Benjwong (talk) 06:09, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Category:Miss Hong Kong contestants
Category:Miss Hong Kong contestants has been nominated for deletion. 76.66.193.90 (talk) 06:13, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Coordinators' working group
Hi! I'd like to draw your attention to the new WikiProject coordinators' working group, an effort to bring both official and unofficial WikiProject coordinators together so that the projects can more easily develop consensus and collaborate. This group has been created after discussion regarding possible changes to the A-Class review system, and that may be one of the first things discussed by interested coordinators.

All designated project coordinators are invited to join this working group. If your project hasn't formally designated any editors as coordinators, but you are someone who regularly deals with coordination tasks in the project, please feel free to join as well. &mdash; Delievered by §hepBot  ( Disable )  on behalf of the WikiProject coordinators' working group at 05:38, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Chinese script & needhanzi
There is a discussion on whether to merge these two templates together. See Template talk:Chinese script. &mdash; 76.66.193.90 (talk) 06:11, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

File:Hong Kong.png
File:Hong Kong.png has been nominated for deletion. 76.66.193.90 (talk) 06:52, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Jyutping vs Cantonese Yale
Sorry if I lost track on this one - since when did Cantonese Yale takeover Jyutping as the standard for providing transliterations for Cantonese names on Wikipedia? --Deryck C. 11:49, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

US-PROC rename
People's Republic of China – United States relations → Sino-American relations has been nominated at WP:RM. 76.66.193.69 (talk) 01:37, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Kung Fu Hustle FAR
nominated Kung Fu Hustle for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here.

Peter Isotalo 12:00, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Gloria Chang is being considered for deletion
Hello all, I was wondering about whether there were any cantonese sources expanding on this person and story. Article is being debated for deletion here - Articles_for_deletion/Gloria_Chang Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:47, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Bus Terminuses in Hong Kong
Bus Terminuses in Hong Kong] has been nomiated for deletion. 70.29.213.241 (talk) 05:37, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

ancient sources
There's a notice at WT:CHINA about the usage of ancient Chinese sources. See Wikipedia_talk:Did_you_know/TangTalk. 70.29.213.241 (talk) 06:39, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

mormon temple in Hong Kong
There is a Mormon temple in Hong Kong. Should the article belong to this WikiProject? LDS-SPA1000 (talk) 22:11, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Does your WikiProject care about talk pages of redirects?
Does your project care about what happens to the talk pages of articles that have been replaced with redirects? If so, please provide your input at User:Mikaey/Request for Input/ListasBot 3. Thanks, Matt (talk) 01:38, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Naming convention for Chinese foods and usages of Wikitionary
See WT:CHINA, there is an important discussion going on about the names of Chinese dishes. This may result in the disappearance of the Cantonese-based names (because of the pinyin imperialism found in Wikipedia). 76.66.202.139 (talk) 09:56, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Geography of Hong Kong
Can somebody please make an infobox for Geography of Hong Kong that runs along the bottom of the page instead of the side, this to avoid such an awful layout problem as Plains_of_Hong_Kong. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 07:35, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I do not see the problem. Putting the box at the side is perfectly fine to me. -- Jack l  09:37, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

2009 swine flu in China/HK/Taiwan
There is a discussion at Template talk:2009 swine flu outbreak table about the appropriateness of listing mainland China, Hong Kong and Taiwan separately, instead of being One China. 76.66.202.139 (talk) 04:13, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Proposal for a 200-WikiProject contest
A proposal has been posted for a contest between all 200 country WikiProjects. We're looking for judges, coordinators, ideas, and feedback.

The Transhumanist 00:39, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Mexican Flu
Could someone create maps for Macau, Taiwan and Singapore?

70.29.208.129 (talk) 15:32, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Cantonese templates
Cantonese-j and Cantonese-tsijp have been nominated for deletion. 70.29.208.129 (talk) 04:06, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Cantonese-tjp has also been nominated for deletion. 70.29.208.129 (talk) 08:59, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Lessie Wei
I'm working on an article about Lessie Wei and have found that her full name is "Lessi Wei Chui Kit-yee." I'm not familiar with naming standards for Chinese names and was wondering if that's the correct way to list her name. For instance, I know that Japanese names are often listed with the given name last. If that is the correct way, I'd like to move the article. Please let me know here if you know. Thanks for your time. Ol Yeller '''Talktome 19:16, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * ''English-given-name Surname Chinese-given-name" ? 70.29.208.129 (talk) 05:49, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

2009 flu pandemic in China
A very short 2009 flu pandemic in China has been created. Some of the Hong Kong content was moved over to this article. 70.29.212.226 (talk) 05:26, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Proposal of Organizing a WikiProject Hong Kong Transport
I have just proposed a WikiProject for Hong Kong Transport, dedicated to improving the quality of transport articles, including and not limited to bus, rail, ferries, roads, etc. Please indicate your support and leave some comments on WikiProject Council/Proposals/Hong Kong Transport. Thank you. KX675 =] Talkbox  13:50, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Making Transport in Hong Kong a featured article
Over the past few days, I've dedicated quite a lot of effort to improve the article Transport in Hong Kong. The article is now very thorough. With a little more improvement, the article could likely be promoted as a featured article. I hope all the Hong Kong Wikipedians could work on that article together. - Alan (talk) 04:38, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * That sounds like a massive task. I can help with minor tasks.  Let me know how I can help.  And definitely let us know when you nominate it for FA status.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 14:38, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Still lacking lots of references. OhanaUnitedTalk page 18:53, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Telecommunications industry in Hong Kong
Telecommunications industry in Hong Kong has been prodded for deletion. 70.29.212.226 (talk) 04:55, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Just ignore the prod. That user was on twinkle-happy and randomly prodded many articles for deletion while failed to justify it according to guidelines. OhanaUnitedTalk page</b> 18:36, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Deletion Nomination on Christina Chan (Chan Hau Man 陳巧文)
The article of Christina Chan is now on the deletion nomination. Chan Hau Man is a pretty well-known figure in Hong Kong for her activity in Hong Kong and it is worth to keep it. Should you concern the article, please leave your comment about it in Articles for deletion/Christina Chan (2nd nomination). &mdash; HenryLi (Talk) 05:12, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Hongkong Post
I feel that Hongkong Post is too long. Should the list of post offices be made into another article? Any ideas? -- Jack l  08:22, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree. The list is to long for a regular article. May be move it to something like List of Hong Kong Post office? --RayYung (talk) 21:33, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes I will move it. -- Jack l  03:38, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Create page: List of Hong Kong post offices -- Jack l  04:11, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Mong Kok acid attacks
I just wanted to know if people from this project could keep an eye out for development in this case? As I'm canadian, there's only so much I can search about it, and although I do regular checks, I'd appreciate if more close-at-home people could maintain the article. Circeus (talk) 02:40, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I don't think they will ever solve the case. TheAsianGURU (talk) 18:12, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * By the way, the attacks involved drain cleaner (Sodium Hydroxide) which is not an acid but alkali. Therefore, it is more appropriate to rename as Mong Kok alkali atttack. --219.79.41.44 (talk) 02:55, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * How do you know it's NaOH? <b style="color:#0000FF;">OhanaUnited</b><b style="color:green;">Talk page</b> 05:15, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Proposed merger: Bilingualism in Hong Kong and Code-switching in Hong Kong
I have proposed that Code-switching in Hong Kong be merged into Bilingualism in Hong Kong. Code-switching is relatively short (not too to be stand alone, but not too long to be merged), and Bilingualism already contains a section on code-switching. Discussion is here. Cnilep (talk) 16:30, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Transport in Hong Kong
Recently, I added some references to the page. But I think it needs more. Therefore, can somebody help me by putting [ citation needed ] tags at unreferenced texts? Thanks. I hope this page can be a FA one day. -- Jack l  15:38, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Hong Kong International Airport
HKIA is in dire need of an update. The article is lagging behind Singapore Changi Airport and others in terms of detail and history. When editing history (especially needs information during construction stage), please see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwtOV-8RpqU&feature=related (Building Hong Kong's Airport 香港國際機場 (2004) by Extreme Engineering - Discovery Channel) ref name is buildhkg. More references are needed. Toyotaboy95 - Hong Kong (talk) 10:52, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

2009 flu pandemic in Hong Kong
I had began work on this article in my userpage subspace months ago, but then suddenly became very busy and stopped working on it. I've moved what I've already added to a main article space. There is really a wealth of information that can be found on the topic. There should be no difficulties finding sources. The Chinese version of the article (for those who can read Chinese) is a good guide for what to search for. The work here really is to collect, organise, and present the main relevant issues. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 20:58, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I am interested in adding sources in the article. Just put context in the article and I will be happy to put citations in. Cheers,  Jack l  12:24, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I will most likely find sources before I add content to the article. But check out the articles that are already used.  Maybe there are relevant points that should be added that I haven't added.  And I've only added content for up to when they started closing down schools.  There's about two months of development that isn't covered by the article yet.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 05:35, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Anthony Wong Chau Sang
Anthony Wong Chau Sang is under a rename debate. 76.66.202.213 (talk) 08:09, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Pageview stats
After a recent request, I added WikiProject Hong Kong to the list of projects to compile monthly pageview stats for. The data is the same used by http://stats.grok.se/en/ but the program is different, and includes the aggregate views from all redirects to each page. The stats are at WikiProject Hong Kong/Popular pages.

The page will be updated monthly with new data. The edits aren't marked as bot edits, so they will show up in watchlists. You can view more results, request a new project be added to the list, or request a configuration change for this project using the toolserver tool. If you have any comments or suggestions, please let me know. Thanks! Mr.Z-man 01:48, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

List of public housing estates in Hong Kong
Mergers have now taken place for the majority of lone housing estates per the discussion we have had, and a number of new articles containing merged information now exist. One or two estates have been merged into their localities per WP:LOCAL. A very small number have not been merged due to their notability, or because they somehow defy classification. Any comments on any aspect of the merger/non-merger would be most welcome. Ohconfucius (talk) 08:34, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for doing all that work. Are there any that stick in your mind as problematic? Abductive  (reasoning) 09:11, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, Ricky and I both did the work. We were mostly agreed, but had a little discussion on my talk page during our work, one or two items of which are possibly outstanding. Ohconfucius (talk) 09:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

FYI, I have also started merging some of the less notable private estate articles into their localities. Ohconfucius (talk) 09:43, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Category:Indigenous inhabitant people in Hong Kong
Category:Indigenous inhabitant people in Hong Kong has been nominated for deletion. 76.66.200.21 (talk) 04:02, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

The CFD failed, and now it is up for rename. See -. (I am personally neutral to the rename). Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 17:30, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Unequal Treaties
Unequal Treaties is up for rename and a relate page is to be deleted. See Talk:Unequal_Treaties

76.66.200.21 (talk) 03:51, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

尺
Shaku → Chi (length) - has been requested at WP:RM, see talk:Shaku

76.66.196.139 (talk) 05:05, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Hong Kong units
Is there a Hong Kong units of measurement, like there are for Taiwan? (Taiwanese units of measurement) Since the HK gov't defines units in law, such an ariticle would be good to have.

76.66.196.139 (talk) 08:28, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * If anybody want to go make this article, here's the Weights and Measure Ordinance as a reference. Schedule One specifically defines the units that are legally recognised.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 13:26, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I have drafted an article about it. Please feel free to modify it.  &mdash; HenryLi (Talk) 11:50, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Violet Hill
Does anyone know why Violet Hill has been merged into Wilson Trail and turned into a redirect? It only makes limited sense to me and I cannot find any discussion or explanation to support the move. In addition, that creates problems like the disappearance of the dab link to Violet Hill (song) and other Violet Hills in the world (Ontario for instance). olivier (talk) 11:02, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Photo request: Dragonair headquarters
Would someone mind photographing the Dragonair headquarters at Hong Kong Airport? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 02:33, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Public housing in Hong Kong
Please note that the articles rental housing estates in Hong Kong are nearly completed. At next stage, I will add HOS and PSPS courts into the original rental housing estate articles soon. Ricky@36 (talk) 16:42, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Summary: what should we do with Hong Kong estates articles?olivier (talk) 08:17, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

The long version: I believe the topic to be of high importance on several levels: society, history, economy, etc. Maybe the demolition of Shek Kip Mei Estate, the evacuation of Lower Ngau Tau Kok (II) Estate, as well as various local exhibitions and programs have added to this perception. In any case, the mere fact that about half of the population of the territory is currently living in some sort of publicly subsidized housing makes the topic difficult to ignore, and a proper treatment of the topic contributes to the overall quality of the HK related topics in Wikipedia. As far as I know there has not been any concerted effort to work on HK public housing related articles within Wikipedia. Now, some of you have probably noted that User:Ricky@36 has been busy creating many such articles recently. Among other things, he has been creating articles for virtually each of the ~200 public housing estates of the territory. He has also created many articles for private housing estates. Admittedly, many of his articles are stubs and lack references. The natural consequence is that some of these articles are routinely tagged for potential lack of notability and/or are the subjects of requests for deletions, invoking WP:N and WP:V (references from the government agencies being technically not considered as third-party). Several of them have been deleted in the past. While the deletion of inappropriate articles from Wikipedia is certainly a very healthy practice, I have some reservations about the way it is conducted for these articles. Articles are tagged for lack of notability, and after a while a deletion request is made. The discussions made to decide whether the article should be deleted or not is usually mostly conducted by people not familiar with the topic. In addition, the request for deletion of articles about HK public housing estates typically attracts very little interest and usually a decision is made to delete the article after just a few people have noticed that a given estate is not important by itself. My experience with French communes was similar. I created hundreds of articles, other people created thousands of them, and some of them were randomly tagged for notability and/or deletion. What probably helped was the creation of the WikiProject French communes, which attracted some attention and made the project official. Now, what then seemed as a wild dream became reality: there is an article for each of the 36,782 communes, and judging by the status page a group of editors is actively working at improving them. The community also agreed, that, like for many other countries, each individual commune was worthy of a Wikipedia article. The reason why I am relating this story is that I believe that because of the highly urbanized nature of Hong Kong, public housing estates in particular, and probably other housing estates as well, play the role of villages and towns in other territories. Now I would like to open the discussion and ask the members of this WikiProject (and others) what we should do with these articles: keep them all, merge some of them as it has been attempted in Public Housing Estates on Tsing Yi Island, let some them disappear without a trace, and if so, which ones? For examples of recent discussions, you can look at Wah Ming Estate, Shek Yam East Estate, Tin Tsz Estate, Tsui Lok Estate. Thanks for reading and thank you for your comments! olivier (talk) 16:20, 8 August 2009 (UTC) (I have also contributed with my alternate account User:Underwaterbuffalo).


 * As with other cities,large housing developments on the scale of thousands of apartments will always be notable--and there will always be references if they are looked for. The Googles are not appropriate for this sort of subject. Printed newspapers are. There is always enough steps in the planning to get articles in the appropriate general and specialized news sources. Whether smaller ones are notable might vary--it looks as if some of the smaller ones in Hong Kong  are abortive projects, and the fact  they they have failed (or been destroyed)  would only increase the notability, as that usually gets some publicity. I'm aware that because of the density there are likely to be relatively more   large projects  in Hong Kong than in many more dispersed cities, but I don't see that this would decrease the notability either. DGG (talk) 23:24, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * This is pure invention on your part. As I calculated on one of the AfDs, about 20% of the world's population lives in high rise apartment buildings. I estimate there are 135,800 such apartment buildings, and all of them can't be notable. Abductive  (reasoning) 23:31, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Abductive, would you mind identifying the part of DGG's comment that you are labeling as "pure invention"? that would be useful. Thank you. olivier (talk) 07:33, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The whole statement has a lot of wishful thinking. Such apartment complexes are not always notable. There are not always sources. The Googles are appropriate. The steps of the planning are not covered by journalists unless there is controversy. The only reason the smaller complexes have more sources is that they tend to be older. The complexes don't always get publicity when they are demolished. Because of the density and large numbers of similar buildings, they tend to be ignored. Abductive  (reasoning) 08:44, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I did a great deal of research when I found this cluster of articles, and the majority are not notable. I found that having a shopping center or a train station attached to the complex generally results in mentions in books, news articles and journal articles. The rule of thumb I would use; if you can't find anything to say about the complex that can't be reduced to numbers and design codenames like Single H, it isn't going to be notable. Abductive  (reasoning) 08:44, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * If they were composed of several thousands of apartments, it is likely they will be notable (Taikoo Shing, Mei Foo Sun Chuen) what we are talking about here for the most part are estates containing a few HUNDRED (or low thousands) - with a typical HK estate housing 3–5 thousand people - thus not all that significant. Ohconfucius (talk) 04:19, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

I am more than willing to acknowledge the possibilty that individual housing developments may be notable enough to have a Wikipedia article. In the United States there have been cases where some have garnered national attention (Cabrini Green comes to mind, for example). However, I am unwilling to acknowledge that every housing project automatically merits an article. The argument that half the population of Hong Kong lives in such places actually decreases their individual notability, to my way of seeing things. (I estimate that over 95% of all Americans live alongside of paved streets; does each street therefore merit its own page?) On the other hand, the fact that such a high percentage of Hong Kong's people live in such places does constitute a noteworthy fact. My suggestion would be something along the lines that I think that olivier has already suggested elsewhere. An article on these estates deserves to exist, and should include a list of all of these developments. Then someone like Ricky@36 can come along and look for individual estates (is that the right word?) that possess singular noteworthiness. If someone was to write an article on the first such development, and the largest such development, and any other such superlatives (along with documentation; not of the development's existence, but of its individual notability), then I think we'd be on our way to something acceptable to all parties. Un sch  ool  00:38, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * There already is List of public housing estates in Hong Kong, List of Home Ownership Scheme Courts in Hong Kong and, because many have apartments, List of shopping centres in Hong Kong. Abductive  (reasoning) 02:51, 10 August 2009 (UTC)


 * What do you think of an article like Public Housing Estates on Tsing Yi Island? It covers 8 public housing estates located in a quite small area and all built around the same time. The article as is stands today is probably not perfect, but having the estates grouped together in this manner gives context, and avoids having non-notable individual articles. If any individual estate of the list is particularly notable by itself (and among all of them, maybe only Cheung Ching Estate might be eligible), then we could have individual articles for them. In total we could have the material about all public and semi-public estates grouped in ~25 articles, with maybe another ~25 for individual estates. Would that be a possible option? olivier (talk) 08:07, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't see a problem with that. To my mind, these apartment complexes are like vertical suburban subdivisions, which are not typically considered encyclopedic enough for their own articles, but to which nobody would object as a list. Grouping by Districts of Hong Kong and splitting geographically distinct areas like Tsing Yi Island, such lists would mean that none of the information would be lost, and even have space for all the photos (although in smaller thumbnails). Abductive  (reasoning) 08:32, 10 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I agreed with you at this point. If the articles are grouped, it is better to group them by District Council of Hong Kong. Ricky@36 (talk) 09:08, 14 August 2009 (UTC)


 * In Home Ownership Scheme courts, I suggested merging some of them into respective public housing estates, because they are usually regarded to be a part of the public estates. Ricky@36 (talk) 08:47, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * [Partly responding to comments made during my AfD] It's not a cultural bias on my part, as can be seen from my contributions. I put Wah Ming Estate‎ up for AfD, as I have for other non-notable housing estates because I feel they not only do they not satisfy the requirements of WP, their presentation in any meaningful way should be within a better/wider context. As has been pointed out, an overwhelming majority of the HK population lives in high-rise blocks, so housing estates are a norm; just under half the HK population lives in public housing, so they are banalised. A housing estate is not a commune; it has no governing structure except an owners corporation (required by law). People rarely know one estate from another unless they happen to live in the vicinity. There are certainly those which are notable, but as always, the Pareto principle tends to apply to their individual notability. Yes, the government is quite transparent with housing information, so there are sources such as Planning Department, Housing Association etc which give the background to the housing developments, but none of that makes an estate notable in an encyclopaedic sense. They cannot be compared with community facilities such as leisure centres and hospitals. I am responsible for the Public Housing Estates on Tsing Yi Island article, which I was hoping would be adopted as a model for other HK housing estates. I was a bit dismayed when Ricky decided to undo the redirects on the individual estates' articles without even attempting to expand any of them (which I felt was not a sound approach to developing articles). Typically, housing estates are localised in clumps, which allows them to be treated in an agglomerated fashion, particular in 'new towns'. Except for government sources, examples of sources usually cited to preserve articles from deletion are frequently about events which occur there, making the mentions 'trivial' according to WP:N. SO, in conclusion, my suggested approach is to develop articles on an agglomerated basis, except in cases where estates are genuinely notable (e.g. Shek Kip Mei Estate, Choi Hung Estate), which would retain their own article. This would not stop links for individual estates from being created, redirecting to the most relevant agglomeration. Ohconfucius (talk) 04:10, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Grouping of the articles is also preferable. I know the purpose of your aims now. If all public housing estate articles are reserved, I don't care about the modes of presentation, so "grouping" may be more preferrable. For "notable" (large and famous) estates, I suggested to remain them as dependent articles, but others are merged to an article about the estates of the district. The first thing is to identify which public housing estates need to be independent. Ricky@36 (talk) 09:05, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * In other words, everybody is on board for grouped articles except the articles' creator. Abductive  (reasoning) 04:29, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Everybody? You said you would like to remove all articles bu not to reserve or merge them, right? Ricky@36 (talk) 08:55, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Hey I think you 2 guys agree, in fact. 1) Have articles for groups of estates, including the material of currently separate articles. 2) Keep an article for the important ones. 对不对？olivier (talk) 21:19, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * By the way, do you know Chinese? Ricky@36 (talk) 14:36, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Seems like it... Ohconfucius (talk) 02:00, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Ricky@36 while you are making the articles for the groups, as I said above, any estate which can be described with numbers alone is a good target for merging, but ones with big shopping malls and/or trains stations in them are fine to keep as stand-alone articles. Also, any that are the oldest, tallest, have the most inhabitants or whatever in Hong Kong, or won some sort of award are fine. Abductive  (reasoning) 03:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I prefer using population as one of the criticia to define what estate articles are treated to be independent. Ricky@36 (talk) 14:36, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Population is a good metric too, but I would not want you to merge an estate that has a "claim to notability". Abductive  (reasoning) 18:08, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I would like to add that the other type of "news" (for private estates) is where the developers hype and publicise a launch, hiring Miss World, creating a frenzy with column inches of stories about the limited number of units available, the queues of speculators scrambling to buy, and the prices achieved - which may contribute to its notability. However, these are not firm foundations either - there is plenty of crap published by HK newspapers, most of which are heavily reliant on developers' advertising dollar - to the extent that many newspapers' front page news is relegated to the second page (those in HK will attest). Ohconfucius (talk) 04:40, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Using Emporis to search, there appear to be ~8000 results for buildings (which I think is high rise buildings) and ~1000 for complexes, which I think is the sort of article we are talking about here. There are also 156 neighbourhoods, which I think is what we're talking about merging the articles into. (Can someone who knows more about this let me know if this is correct!) Picking a random neighbourhood such as Tin Shui Wai, Kingswood Villas clearly seems independently notable. However the rest of the Public Housing Estates, I'm not too sure about. I think it would be preferable to merge these estates into the one article as discussed above. The content would be preserved and we'd have much better articles out of it. It would also enable the housing complexes to be better explained in context with each other. Quantpole (talk) 08:40, 14 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I see that there are some "questionable" arguments presented. If articles merged together with same contents as before validates notability, then why do the individual articles not meeting the notability guideline? There's no text or images added but just combining text together. It doesn't magically becomes notable after merge. <b style="color:#0000FF;">OhanaUnited</b><b style="color:green;">Talk page</b> 16:17, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * If individual articles don't meet the notability guideline, but an editor has put a lot of work into them, the typical compromise is to merge them. The only reason these articles are not being deleted is because people don't want to upset their creator, not because they have any demonstrable notability. Abductive  (reasoning) 17:24, 19 August 2009 (UTC)