Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Horse racing/Archive 9

He's ba-a-a-ack
Didn't we have this discussion a year or so ago? and. I've reverted twice, someone else can look at this situation. Montanabw (talk) 04:00, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Request move for GII Norman Carlyon Stakes to GII Australia Stakes
Can some admin please move the article Norman Carlyon Stakes to Australia Stakes? The race has been run as the Australia Stakes since 2010 and it doesn't seem that the Moonee Valley Racing Club is in any hurry to change the name of the race soon. Currently Australia Stakes exists as a REDIRECT. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 05:17, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The best thing would be to follow the instructions at Requested moves, although that can take a while.  Tigerboy1966  09:31, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I have made an entry in WP:Requested_moves/Technical_requests. This should go quicker unless it is contested. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 15:20, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The move was completed today without incidence. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 00:23, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

WikiProject X is live!


Hello everyone!

You may have received a message from me earlier asking you to comment on my WikiProject X proposal. The good news is that WikiProject X is now live! In our first phase, we are focusing on research. At this time, we are looking for people to share their experiences with WikiProjects: good, bad, or neutral. We are also looking for WikiProjects that may be interested in trying out new tools and layouts that will make participating easier and projects easier to maintain. If you or your WikiProject are interested, check us out! Note that this is an opt-in program; no WikiProject will be required to change anything against its wishes. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thank you!

Note: To receive additional notifications about WikiProject X on this talk page, please add this page to WikiProject X/Newsletter. Otherwise, this will be the last notification sent about WikiProject X.

Harej (talk) 16:57, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

RfC
Not horse racing, but horses. Talk:Mustang  Montanabw (talk)  00:13, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

It's LIVE! Finally
Kenneth and Sarah Ramsey up and live. Article improvements welcomed! Montanabw (talk) 06:51, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I see the DYK reviewer has described the hook as "superlative" - great stuff! --Bcp67 (talk) 22:14, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Random New-ish Problem
For some reason when you type the Westchester Stakes (referring to a G3 race at Belmont) it redirects the searcher to the Willard L. Proctor Memorial Stakes (a non-graded race held at the now defunct Hollywood Park). The two races are seemingly entirely unrelated; except for the Willard L. Proctor Memorial Stakes was called the Westchester Stakes at one point, but not since 1999. It needs to be updated, anyone seriously searching an ungraded stakes race that no longer exists probably already knows enough to know it was renamed (it should still appear under disambiguation though) and it most likely is not the first choice of those searching. I wrote that it's new-ish because I don't think I had this problem when I looked it up about 2 months ago, it's like the original Westchester Stakes page (for Belmont) was deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexis taylor92 (talk • contribs) 00:22, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Edit: I apologize if I sounded rude in that post, I do greatly appreciate everyone who contributes work. The articles are wonderfully written and very informative. I didn't intend to sound demanding I just kind of rushed the writing and didn't think about how it might sound. Just wanted to bring an issue to your attention, don't know how often contributors check for missing G3 races. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexis taylor92 (talk • contribs) 00:31, 27 January 2015 (UTC)


 * In this particular case, I think it would be OK to hijack the Westchester title, given there is only one edit to the redirect, and that by a long-inactive editor. Just delete the redirect and use that area to write the article on the New York race, with a disambiguation note at the top for anyone looking for the other race (if you don't know how to do a "dab" holler here and one of us can do it. Normally I'd say NOT to do something like this, but this is a pretty clear cut exception. Also, we don't prioritize articles on G III races unless they used to be more famous or a G II or something - all the Grade Is if possible, yes. Then the IIs But given that the title exists, might as well use it.    Montanabw (talk)  05:51, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Can someone please look into the races at Belmont Park
I have recently been looking at races held at Belmont Park (and other tracks) on Bloodhorse.com and Horseracingnation.com, a lot of the 3 YO & UP races have been changed to 4 YO & UP races. Some examples are the Ruffian Handicap (which on Bloodhorse is named the Ruffian Stakes so perhaps a redirect is in order for those typing in Stakes, as is it doesn't even show up under the suggest articles), the Man O' War Stakes, the Alysheba Stakes, and many more graded and ungraded stakes as well. I understand that they only changed last year, and the change may not be permanent, but it should at least deserve a sentence in the article that for 2014 the race excluded 3 year olds. I personally tried to change the age on the Alysheba to 4 year olds and up to reflect the change I saw on both websites, but someone changed it back, I was going to do more today, as just little changes I felt comfortable editing (I'm new so I don't want to jump in to huge edits) but if it's just going to be reverted by someone, who linked an article written in 2001 as his source what's the point? People don't want to know in the little brief (although highly convenient) race card side-panel what the qualifications of the race were in 2001, they want to know what the qualifications are now. Also, here are my sources from bloodhorse and showing the change: http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/race/USA/BEL/2014/5/11/8/ruffian-s-gr-ii — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexis taylor92 (talk • contribs) 01:01, 27 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Don't be discouraged if you get reverted, just keep trying to do better each time! New users are a little vulnerable because we get a lot of "drive by" random edits from redlinked user names.  I recommend being sure to cite to the specific article as you did here and not just say "from bloodhorse" or whatever. (See WP:CITE for how to do it)  We old timers do get a little trigger-happy with the revert button, but if you're willing to learn how to navigate wikipedia, we're all going to be willing to help!    Montanabw (talk)  05:51, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Notability of Wetherby Mares' Hurdle
I have declined the article submission Draft:Wetherby Mares' Hurdle based on the sources provided not being sufficient to pass General notability guideline. I looked at WikiProject Horse racing/Notability but was unable to establish whether any of these criteria helped its case or not. Input welcome. Arthur goes shopping (talk) 10:34, 29 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Not sure the significance of being a listed race, I'll let and the other UK editors weigh in. Looks salvageable, though.   Montanabw (talk)  05:53, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Listed is effectively the third tier of National Hunt races in the UK, after Grades 1 & 2 - Grade 3 being reserved for major handicap races. On the Flat, Listed is the fourth tier after Groups 1, 2 and 3. We do have plenty of articles for Listed races, and although this race isn't of massive significance in the great scheme of things, some work has been done on it. I'm not personally too bothered either way though whether it ends up being accepted. --Bcp67 (talk) 06:25, 30 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks everyone, I have moved this into mainspace and it is now at Wetherby Mares' Hurdle ... please improve it as you get the opportunity. Arthur goes shopping (talk) 09:28, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Notable Races on Racecourse pages
I propose to replace the Notable Races links on the UK racecourse pages with a table using the same format as that on the "List of races" pages.

Below is how it would look for (my personal favourite) Salisbury racecourse. Any opinions for or against?

Notable races (Current)


 * Sovereign Stakes
 * Cathedral Stakes
 * Stonehenge Stakes
 * Upavon Fillies' Stakes
 * Dick Poole Fillies' Stakes

Notable Races (Proposed)


 * But a race that doesn't have an article or some kind of reference to back up its notability shouldn't be on the list....William 23:38, 17 February 2015 (UTC)


 * I like the concept of the table, would bring some consistency to the racecourse articles and provides detail to show what the major races for each course are. --Bcp67 (talk) 20:02, 18 February 2015 (UTC)


 * I like it too, and would you have any interest for doing so for US tracks too? (Thinking Santa Anita Park)  Though perhaps without the bright green headers, something a bit quiter, to match the infoboxes of each respective article, perhaps...   Montanabw (talk)  00:03, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

I have finally started this work, with Cheltenham, hopefully one of the more complex! Any feedback welcome - others should quickly follow now that I have a format to work to.

Regarding US Races, I would be delighted to help, but I can only do it if I have all the data to hand. UK racecourses should be fairly straightforward as pages like List_of_British_National_Hunt_races collect everything together, allowing me to process it and reformat. From a quick look at the US races the nearest equivalent is something like Category:Graded_stakes_races_in_the_United_States, but that only provides a list of names, no mention of courses, distances etc. Any idea where I could get hold of the full data required? (JockeyColours (talk) 17:48, 9 March 2015 (UTC))
 * You appear to have listed 47 races - are they all notable? -- Red rose64 (talk) 18:41, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Redrose, the general rule is that most Group I and Grade I races are pretty much automatically notable, the II and III races sometimes are if there is some logical reason (a prep for a classic race, a historically significant race, a former I race, etc...) But for individual tracks, some of the listed stakes or group races are probably appropriate for a table if they are significant for that track, even if not notable enough for a WP article.  JMO.   Montanabw (talk)  02:40, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
 * National Hunt races in Great Britain are "Grade" rather than "Group" races. --Bcp67 (talk) 20:19, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
 * A further thought is that I don't personally think that the "day of week" column adds any particular value to the table. On the whole though I do like the table and think it's a useful addition to the article. Per Redrose64 above though, maybe it could be thinned down a bit? --Bcp67 (talk) 20:21, 9 March 2015 (UTC)


 * One thing I've noticed with tables is that now so many people access WP via mobile phones, trying to not make tables too wide is probable a good idea. (I still just have a dumb phone so no clue how it is rendered, but it's a thing to think about for the future.  Montanabw (talk)  02:40, 15 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Other thoughts: I'd put the race name first, then the other stuff; I'd also abbreviate the month and keep that column much narrower.  I'd also put just the number in the "Grade" column, use abbreviations like "Hcp" for the rest (with a key at the bottom).  I also agree that day of the week isn't needed.


 * I don't personally like the heading "Grade" in the GB & Ireland tables, I'd prefer the term "status". I'm also going to change the description for Listed races, like the Cheshire Oaks and Dee Stakes. A long-term aim of mine is to get at least a stub up for all British Listed races, and to break out the Listeds into a separate table in the list of British races. Am looking to work on this through 2015. --Bcp67 (talk) 21:04, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
 * OK, the races I mentioned above are already marked "Listed" - I was looking at Lingfield Park!! --Bcp67 (talk) 21:06, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

"Shuttle Stallion" article (or redirect) needed
This term appears regularly on racing horse pages (e.g., Northern Dancer), and it is unclear as to exactly what it means or entails. An article, or redirect, would be helpful. Pax 22:30, 2 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Hmm. That's a good idea.  Maybe toss us some source material and we can help you put something together!   Montanabw (talk)  00:01, 3 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Don't look at me; all I know about horses is that they eat like one. Pax 08:03, 3 March 2015 (UTC)


 * It might be a start to add a section to the Thoroughbred article and link to that. Godswalk was one of the first modern shuttlers in the early/mid 1980s. Tony Morris article here. Shuttling blamed for spreading disease .  Tigerboy1966  08:13, 15 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Thoroughbred isn't the place, it's FA-class and for that reason a bit fragile. We COULD, however, add this to horse breeding, as it might be done with other horses; I know some Arabians ship to South America, though not annually, so it isn't only Thoroughbreds (though probably 90%+ Thoroughbreds...).   Montanabw (talk)  05:18, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Peter Cazalet
I'm working up an article on Peter Cazalet (racehorse trainer). Assistance in expanding the article is sought. Mjroots (talk) 10:33, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Looks like a very decent start. Bit of a forgotten name now, even the race which commemorated him at Sandown Park has sadly gone by the board. I don't have very much on him in the way of printed sources but will see if I can add anything. --Bcp67 (talk) 11:11, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Had forgotten that Albert Roux was the chef at Fairlawne too! Cricinfo has some detail on his cricketing career here  if you haven't seen that already. --Bcp67 (talk) 11:18, 18 March 2015 (UTC)


 * I'd simply disambiguate it Peter Cazalet (trainer), JMO. Looks like it's well underway.  My advice to anyone writing about these older folks is to be sue to write  good lead paragraph that clearly establishes notability from the get go.  Unless you have autopatrolled rights, sometimes these articles on older individuals attract the deletionist trolls.  If it's long enough, well-footnoted and so on - which it is - you will probably be fine, but make the lead really solid!   Montanabw (talk)  05:23, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * as one who holds administrator privileges, I hav autopatrolled rights. Article is now live, but the subject is way out of my area of expertise. Additions and improvements welcome. Mjroots (talk) 13:36, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * A minor point is that it doesn't need the hatnote pointing readers to the admiral. Someone coming here and typing Peter Cazalet into the search box will go to the admiral's page anyway - that page will need a hatnote for the trainer article though when it's done. I'm happy once the article is in the main space to go through and create the links from race articles etc. --Bcp67 (talk) 08:48, 19 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Article now in mainspace. Will have a look at the crickinfo webpage and see what can be added. Mjroots (talk) 11:39, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Rous Stakes
In the 2015 season at Ascot there is a listed race named the Rous Stakes Info
 * Distance - 5 furlongs
 * Grade - Listed
 * Age/Sex - 3+ Open
 * Purse - 45,000 (pounds)
 * Track - Ascot
 * Date - October 3, 2015

I was considering adding it, but I saw there is a Rous Memorial Stakes entry, the last known winner in 1894. Are they connected, the distance is very different, but stranger things have happened.

69.120.17.108 (talk) 13:20, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
 * The only connection I know of is being named after the same person, Admiral Rous. The modern Ascot race was run at Newmarket until recently, the venue was changed as part of a few Newmarket/Ascot switches when British Champions' Day was established. Newmarket's 5f course on the Rowley Mile is still named as "Rous course" in race conditions. Would be good to see an article for the Ascot race - I'm working towards getting an article in place for every Listed race in GB and you want to create this one it'd be great, thanks. --Bcp67 (talk) 15:08, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

GNG - Black Type, Listed Races, Grade or Group Races

 * Just a side comment, but isn't being a Group 1 or Grade I race sort of the standard for WP:Horse racing notability? We also have a number of Grade/Group 2 and 3 races with articles, but usually because they meet WP:GNG as either major preps or were once G1s.  I am concerned about going farther down the food chain than that - "listed" stakes in the USA (i.e. races called stakes races but not graded stakes...) number in the thousands, I think... or does "listed" have a different meaning than I think it does?   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  18:17, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
 * We've got articles for every British, Irish & French G2 and all the G3s for those countries bar one newly-raised French G3, plus nearly all the Italian Pattern races. Looks like Listed has a slightly different meaning here in Europe where it is the category below Group 3 - Listed wins / places confers "black type" in auction catalogues just as Group race wins / places do. Is it worth carrying on with adding the Listed races do you think? --Bcp67 (talk) 18:34, 23 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I am not sure what will get a USA horse "black type" in sales catalogues here, I thought it was Graded Stakes wins... but maybe you could check into that question, as I suppose that's a good standard for GNG. "Black type" (which, I see, redirects to Group races) is a better standard perhaps than the ever-shifiting "is is GI or GII?" stuff that happens here every year based on whatever magic pixie dust formula the powers that be use.  I guess my take is that if we don't even have artilcles on all the GI races in the USA, I'm not sure how far down the food chain to go. You raise a really good question and I think it worth discussing!  Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  00:42, 24 April 2015 (UTC)


 * It's the old problem of the European and North American systems being not directly comparable. A lot of quite important European trial races are Listed events, whereas in NA it's quite common for major trials to be given G1 status.  Tigerboy1966  09:10, 26 April 2015 (UTC)


 * While not comparable in terms of Major Trials, in the US Listed Stakes are noted as "black type". See Current list 2015 U.S. Graded Stakes Races. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 13:08, 26 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Just a couple of comments on this topic: I have been trying to get an article for each Australian Group Race and would consider it a minimum guideline that those events have an article. I would think that WP:GNG would be achieved and I think it would be a Project minimum although I don't see it spelt out in Project Page. Anyway, I've been attempting to go through the list for Australia this season and get it up to date. Its not an easy task since you have to obtain enough information from different references to get an article organized. With regard to Listed Races - If they were once Group or Graded race also I think those kind of race qualify but I think those events get neglected. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 12:56, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
 * To further complicate matters in the US, "Black-type" races can be both graded and listed stakes races as long as the owners pay a fee, the entries list closes 72 hours before the running and the purse value is at least $50,000. What constitutes black-type has changed over the years (really complicated) and races can become de-listed from year to year . Froggerlaura  ribbit 15:03, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
 * - am I correct that a "listed" stakes race in the US is less than a "graded" stakes (the list that Brudder Andrusha linked to is a "graded stakes" list)? My question is if we should have a minimal structure described at our little draft GNG list here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Horse_racing/Notability#Notability_of_competitions   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  03:13, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Without a doubt Listed races are not as important as Graded Races and the list that I originally provided includes such events. Also there are events that were to be Listed Races but were not included because the race clubs did not ante up the stake money or they eliminated them from the program schedule. With regard to the draft for GNG which ** you have started I would include all Group/Graded races as enough to pass the requirement for WP:GNG. If you only include only Group/Grade 1 then this leaves room for someone to insist deletion of an article because minimum requirements for GNG have not been meet. Maybe we should open this subject for debate in your article and get a response from our active editors? Brudder Andrusha (talk) 04:06, 27 April 2015 (UTC)


 * As far as I am concerned, that GNG is a draft for all of us, so go ahead and just be bold, dive in there and change what you think needs changing. I don't own it and I didn't want to take it live until more people had looked at it.  So feel free to just take a big whack.  (The other editors here knew I was working on this, but maybe got busy with other stuff and forgot.)  I don't want to remove genuinely appropriate articles, but I started it up in response to a bunch of bullshit promotional articles about very, very minor racehorses that I AfD'd, but also because I had to save some articles on 19th century jockeys from AfD as well (try arguing notability of the rider of a Grand National winner pre-1900 to a teenaged troll living in his mommy's basement if he can't find the guy on Google... sheesh!)   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  21:25, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Guineas - comma or not?
So at the moment we have one article named 1000 Guineas Stakes and another named 2,000 Guineas Stakes. One or the other surely needs moving? --Bcp67 (talk) 20:04, 26 April 2015 (UTC)


 * What do the races themselves use? I'd go with whatever they want themselves to be called.   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  23:51, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
 * @Bcp67 - Check out the what the race club uses in official program. Also check the organization in the UK which has these events as Registered Race Names. I believe that is important and I have been going the Australian race names correcting all abbreviations, commas, periods (or full stops), apostrophes etc and I have found many corrections that needed to be done. Also I have seen your race in question spelled out as One Thousand Guineas Stakes as well.... ;) Brudder Andrusha (talk) 04:12, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
 * The organisation is The Jockey Club. Unfortunately, their website has fallen victim to corporate sponsorship, so it mentions the race sponsor whenever possible, as in QIPCO 2000 Guineas and QIPCO 1000 Guineas. No comma seems to be used, but judging by the rest of the page, that might be the sponsor's whim. Notice that on the lists of races for each day, six of the seven race names include the word "Stakes" - the exception in both cases is the Guineas itself. -- Red rose64 (talk) 08:48, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the thoughts. I've seen the One Thousand & Two Thousand as well, probably more from old racecards - looks a bit archaic now. I've looked at the British Horseracing Authority's list of Flat Pattern & Listed races for 2014, which is my usual official source for British race info, and they go with the comma-less version and "Stakes" in the name, as does the Racing Post's database of results going back to 1988. I'm going to be bold and move it. --Bcp67 (talk) 19:47, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Corporate sponsorship is evil... you guys think you have it bad, we have the "Kentucky Derby Presented by Yum! Brands" ICK!!!!!!   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  21:44, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
 * We have a couple of options with regard to sponsorship which continues to puzzle me with what should I call articles. We do have the sponsor as part of the infobox which can be populated accordingly. I also try and give a wikilink if possible. Sometimes the sponsor doesn't have a corresponding article. Also the sponsored race name can be part of the lead in or introduction of the article as a clarification. As far as corporate sponsorship being evil - if the racing world didn't have it then a few folks would get broke in a hurry. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 05:55, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
 * The football people (at least the UK ones) use the legal names for leagues, not the sponsor's preferred forms. For example, Premier League (not Barclays Premier League); Football Conference (not Vanarama Conference); Isthmian League (not Ryman League), etc. This saves having to move the pages every three or four years. Perhaps their example could be followed. -- Red rose64 (talk) 08:39, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
 * For consistency, this should probably be the same as Irish 2,000 Guineas, with or without the comma, that is. Best, --Discographer (talk) 19:06, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't think consistency is the issue here. If you look at the disambiguation page Thousand Guineas there are some races spelt out, some with the comma and some with the foreign name equivalent. What we should be looking for is Verifiability (WP:V) and a reference from the source of where that registered name of the race is published is sufficient for the name of the article.Brudder Andrusha (talk) 20:43, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

My new motto is, "whatever causes the least drama, let's do that!" That said, the wikignome sorts love consistency, so making things consistent de-escalates drama, which is good. But starting with current titles is probably a defensible approach. Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk) 01:11, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Sponsorship, race names and registered names
Brudder Andrusha, sponsored names are always a problem aren't they? From your comment above it sounds like you have a similar thing in Australia to the "registered title" we have here in the UK, where a race has its long-standing registered title and its variable sponsored title? We've used the registered title where possible for the article and a redirect from the sponsored name - for example the Dubai Duty Free Finest Surprise Stakes, which redirects to the registered John Porter Stakes - this is the 2015 result and that is similar to the football example from User:Redrose64. This avoids shipping the article about every time the sponsor changes. Of course, that doesn't work where the race has only ever been known by a sponsored title! --Bcp67 (talk) 19:23, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
 * , its a right royal pain in the editing wrist this conflict in tracking registered race names and names used to keep the sponsor pleased that they are getting enough exposure when they attach themselves to a name. It's not too bad when you have QIPCO 1000 Guineas Stakes because the sponsor's name is just being concatenated. Worse is the situation IMO is what pointed out with Kentucky Derby Presented by Yum! Brands because it seems that the race name is superficial and the focus is on the sponsor. And the worst scenario is having a race name by the sponsor which completely has no reference to the registered race name - included with your example, Australia just recently held the Schweppervescence Stakes as the Auraria Stakes and this coming weekend's William Hill Classic as the Robert Sangster Stakes. Both of these articles retain the registered race name and in past discussions I think it is the preferred way to go. But I think there comes a time when the registered name becomes obsolete and not used in years and then I think that in that case, the article name best take the new name. For instance the GI(Aus) Coolmore Classic has used that race name since 1996 and using an article name other than that borders on nonsense. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 20:37, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
 * MY argument—and I'm sticking to it—is that sponsorships come and go, but the race is forever, at least if it's a classic! That said, where we have the examples above of the race itself changing its name, not merely the sponsor attached to its name, then an article move with appropriate redirects may be in order. I am thinking of for example, the Breeders' Cup Distaff, which went through a temporary brain fart of being called the Breeders' Cup Ladies' Classic. (barf). So that was a move, and then a move back that we probably needed to do.  However, the Breeders' Cup Juvenile does NOT need to be renamed to the Sentient Jet Breeders' Cup Juvenile - particularly where I think the race will have a different sponsor this year anyway!   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  01:11, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

TFA watchers needed for Chrome
Hi gang, California Chrome is set to be TFA on Derby day (May 2). I will be able to babysit the first 4-5 hours it's up (which will be PM May 1 here in Mountain Standard Time) and the UK folks can take over when it's the wee hours here, but the last 10 hours its up I will be away from tech (I'll be judging a horse show, actually!) and unable to babysit, so asking all hands to be around to watch for vandalism! Thanks! Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk) 23:54, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I'll be there. It will certainly be a hectic weekend with the end of the Punchestown Festival in Ireland, the Kentucky Oaks and Derby in the US, the 2000 and 1000 Guineas in England and the Emperor's Cup in Japan.  Tigerboy1966  18:02, 27 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Well, I should be good for Friday night MST from around my 5pm-ish to my midnight-ish, (I'm -7 GMT) so maybe let me know what needs to be babysat on your side. But I'm definitely going to be worthless on my Saturday until the TFA goes off at the end of the wiki-day and far from any tech. Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  21:29, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I'll be on WP from noon onwards BST (UTC +1). Bedtime will be about an hour after the Derby if Dortmund on American Fahrhoahah wins. A bit later if we need a new article for the winner. Everything is on my watchlist to counter the usual "CALIFORNIA CROME IS GAY HORSE!!!!!!!!!!HAHAHAHAH!!!!!" stuff.  Tigerboy1966  17:52, 28 April 2015 (UTC)


 * You got it in one!  Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  01:11, 29 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Fairly quiet on the CC front. His sex has been changed to "Jedi" a couple of times, but that's the least we could have expected.  Tigerboy1966  14:06, 2 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Well, that was a quieter day than expected. The "big" horses, Gleneagles, American Pharoah, Gold Ship and Able Friend all won so there was no scramble to create new articles (apart from Lovely Maria). Now all I need is for Tiggy Wiggy to do the decent thing and I can get a bit of spring cleaning done.  Tigerboy1966  13:04, 3 May 2015 (UTC)13:03, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Need UK english translation!
Hey UK people! per what does "He likes a shout and a roar" mean? This is horsey slang we don't use in the USA! Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk) 23:37, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't think its "Horsey slang" in particular even in the context which Mills use it. The phrase is more biblical in connotation implying cresendo. I have heard this phrase more than once from British football commentators in the past when they refer to the crowds at the game when they start getting vocal from mere noise (shouting/cheering) to a pulsating loud blast (the actual roar). Brudder Andrusha (talk) 06:06, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
 * It just means he is whinnying loudly to show his wellbeing.  Tigerboy1966  17:45, 28 April 2015 (UTC)


 * So meaning that he just makes a lot of stallion noises in the barn? (I've heard rumors that he can act pretty "studdy" at times...)  Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  01:11, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Exactly, you could say that he is just feeling his oats, Btw most British trainers don't use barns: the horses are usually lodged in individual stables around an open courtyard.  Tigerboy1966  19:23, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

2015 Kentucky Derby also eligibles
There is an IP editor (24.145.129.38) who has twice reverted the 2015 Kentucky Derby Also Eligible number or saddlecloth entries. References include Equibase Official Field, & Blood-Horse, Daily Racing Form. Clearly Also Eligibles have a number! Can some admin put a lock on this article for IP address users or block 24.145.129.38. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 17:17, 30 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I agree, but that said, if they run, they move into the #20 spot, don't they? I tried to effect a compromise by putting the number in the link but showing AE. If they don't drop the stick, I'll request protection.  Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  20:28, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
 * There is a difference between Post Position and Saddlecloth numbers i.e. numbers used in betting to identify the horse. I see that there is a scratching already and that one of the also eligible can start. That entry will start in Post Position 20 and the horses between Frammento and the scratched horse are moved so numbering by post position is not a viable identifier for the horse. Secondly as of now, no one knows if there will be another scratching and we are not to play the WP:CRYSTAL card on whether there will be one or not. I'm merely pointing out that I have provided three reputable sources where Also eligible entries are identified by appropriately with a number and it should be included in the article. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 04:00, 1 May 2015 (UTC)


 * You're right. My point is that they aren't "starting" until someone else scratches. I want to be sure not to confuse readers into thinking an AE is actually going to run I don't know how best to handle this, but given that we now have Frammento in for Stanford and El Kabier just scratched (but not sure they will move up the other AE) it's going to be interesting... Thoughts - anyone else?  Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  22:35, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Tale of Verve, the other AE did not make the draw and this is noted now in the article with a reference. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 03:26, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

New category
I would like to start a category "Active racehorses", which would make updating articles a bit easier. What do you think? I'm also looking at breaking some of the bigger Family cats into sub categories.  Tigerboy1966  11:12, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a good idea to me! --Bcp67 (talk) 11:31, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I think there has been a CFD where the consensus was quite clear about no retired athlete categories....William 17:56, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Erm... well thank you for your contribution, William. Not sure about its relevance.  Tigerboy1966  20:48, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm just pointing out the possibility based on past consensus. A CFD, which won't be started by me because I have no opinion on it, is a possibility....William 22:24, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Apologies for the tone of my previous comment. Just to clarify I wouldn't want to start a "retired racehorses" cat. I would envisage articles going into the "active racehorses" cat and then being removed when they retired.  Tigerboy1966  19:50, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Maintaining will be an issue, but if you simply remove the cat when retired, that wouldn't be too complex. William does raise the possibility that you could encounter trolls at CfD... but I like the concept.  Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  02:04, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
 * What if we made it a hidden category like more of a project housekeeping function? Froggerlaura  ribbit 04:31, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I have no clue how to do that, but I can see tht being a good way to avoid unneeded drahmahz! 05:46, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
 * A category may be hidden either by adding either or the behaviour switch   to the category page; I normally prefer the first method. See WP:HIDDENCAT.
 * I have a q: what is an "active racehorse"? Presumably, a horse that is still competing is active, and one that is retired (perhaps to stud) is inactive. But what if the owner or trainer decides to rest a horse for a few weeks, perhaps because of a non-serious injury, how long should we leave it after the last race before deciding to remove it from the active cat? -- Red rose64 (talk) 13:01, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Some horses are very active in retirement. 1972 Little Brown Jug 2nd heat runner-up Fast Clip, partly owned by my father was retired to a farm in Canada after his racing days. Dad sold him at some point but a year or so later said Clip might have been the most prolific sire in Canada. Clip had supposedly gotten 115+ of the 120 mares bred to him in foal. That's a different type of 'active horse'....William 14:51, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Fast Clip, fast worker! --Bcp67 (talk) 18:18, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Clip's father was 1952 Harness horse of the year- Good Time. Who needs a joke writer, when the truth can be very funny....William 18:35, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Heh, keep it clean, people! :-D  Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  22:45, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I think what Tigerboy1966 was suggesting is implementing an easy way to find articles that will need regular updating. "Active racehorses" in this sense means those currently racing and in need of regular stat updates to prevent the article from falling out of date (i.e. frozen in 2008 when their fans lost interest). In regards to Redrose64's question, after two years with no listed starts in Equibase/RacingPost/Brisnet or a formal notice of retirement (usually happens for G1 winners) we can take them out of the category. If like in some cases, the horse is retired to stud, found to be sterile and returned to racing, we can easily put them back into the category. Froggerlaura  ribbit 15:26, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, it is the currently racing animals; new races to add, charts to update, etc. Usually when horses are injured, the owners either announce retirement publicly or they quietly are not seen racing again the following year; no rush to remove the cat until pretty solid proof they aren't racing. To avoid confusion with "active" stud duty, we could say "competing racehorses" or "racing racehorses" or something that won't trigger giggles from the middle-school crowd! ;)  Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  17:11, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Sometimes a horse that is in perfect health is retired immediately after a race, such as Neptune Collonges. -- Red rose64 (talk) 10:14, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
 * National Hunt horses often have very long racing careers as the majority are geldings. Neptune Collonges was retired at 11 yrs which would be an exceptionally long career in flat-racing where most horses retire from racing at 4-5 years old for possible stud careers (comparatively fewer geldings running). NH horses can also sit out entire seasons and return to racing, so they are more of the exceptions than the rule. Froggerlaura  ribbit 14:41, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Baffert or Berra?
"Baffert, when asked about the presence of Mr. Z in the Preakness, said: "He's sort of an X-factor." Oh!  What a LOL/ SCOMN!  (Sorted coffee out my nose!)  Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  20:18, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Issue at ANI - ping
FYI to those interested. Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk) 22:30, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Chefs-de-Race
There is a new category,, created yesterday by , but we don't have an article for Chefs-de-Race or variations on that, such as Chef-de-Race, Chefs-de-race or Chef-de-race. It's not a term that I'm familiar with, and looking at some of the articles that have been placed in that category, I don't see the term mentioned on any of them (other than in the category list, of course). -- Red rose64 (talk) 09:01, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I did find the term mentioned in this article Dosage Index . I'm not sure I completely understand what it means - at least from my one reading of the article. While I can't tell for certain it looks like L may have been working from this list. Now I haven't found sourced into about it in any of the articles that the cat was added to so it could be removed per WP:CATDEF. OTOH if the members of this wikiproject can find a way to make the info and the category useful then that would be fine. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 01:29, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Well I just nominated it for deletion. Join in the debate here....William 10:48, 24 May 2015 (UTC)


 * I created a redirect to Dosage Index, and it appears to be a legitimate concept ("Chiefs of the breed" or Masters of the breed") for those who follow these theories. It's a legitimate category, though I think there does need to be some sourcing for what constitutes the "official" list. I'll note some sources I found at the CfD.   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  02:08, 25 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks for researching this, for the info you added at the CFD and for the work that you will be doing on the various articles. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 03:27, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

In The News 6th June
A couple of biggies coming up this weekend and would be good to see them on the front page. THE Derby (apologies Montanabw!!) and a possible Triple Crown winner in the US. The Epsom race is classed as ITN/R, which means it will get onto the front page provided the article is decently updated, cited and not full of tags, and the Belmont is also on ITN/R if it produces a TC winner. Which doesn't necessarily exclude it from ITN if American Pharoah comes unstuck, just means it will need to be argued over on ITN/C. Anyway, both articles need to be in good shape. Epsom is coming along, I've been updating it for entries, confirmations and a racecard, so I think with some decent prose on the race itself we should be OK. The Belmont looks like it will need a bit more work but should be fine by Sunday morning. How about we all give it a go and see if we can get them onto the main page by Sunday evening? --Bcp67 (talk) 08:53, 2 June 2015 (UTC)


 * IF American Pharoah wins, it will be the first triple crown in 37 years, so that will be HUGE. If he doesn't, I won't bother to put up the article for ITN because I'll be curled up in the fetal position, sucking my thumb and crying - while simultaneously updating AP's wiki article  - kind of like last year when California Chrome lost.  LOL!   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  20:24, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I will be updating thumb sucking. &mdash;Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 22:34, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Gosh, you guys are a fun bunch to hang out with!  Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  05:42, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

OK, people, go vote at WP:ITN/N. Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk) 23:50, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
 * And there they both are! --Bcp67 (talk) 16:49, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Reassessing Wiki articles
OK guys, I've been cutting my teeth on upgrading one article from stub grade (Half Caste) and writing another from scratch (Chris Green). Chris's page was accepted by a non-horse specialist who gave me a bit of good guidance (pics if poss, the infobox, more sectioning etc) and I have been doing work on it since then with a view of raising it from its C-Grade status.

I guess it would make sense for someone from this group to reassess them, so how would I go about putting this in motion? Or, politically, should I go back to my original reviewer and get him to do it? Colin aka Henri Merton 19:48, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Just assess everything yourself, usually importance=low and class if it passed AfC is usually about C. Ping us if you have specific questions.  Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  22:20, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
 * But don't assess anything as B-class unless it satisfies all six criteria at WP:BCLASS and don't assign GA-class, A-class or FA-class without the formal processes for those classes. -- Red rose64 (talk) 22:32, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Well importance is definitely low so that's agreed, and I don't think Half Caste is a stub any more. But I don't really have the experience to judge C or B and judging yourself is never a good idea anyway! So anybody care to vote? Just saw Redrose64's comment as I went to post so I will look at the criteria as well! Colin aka Henri Merton 22:38, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Just do stub if there's barely much at all, "start" if there is a reasonable amount of content but few or no footnotes, C if it's got some footnotes and is basically complete, even if rough. Then we can, um trot over and see if it's due a reassessment.   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  23:50, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
 * OK, both articles sitting there now at C. I believe they might both actually be B grade but I will await other opinions from more seasoned eyes before I do anything. Once this, uh, hurdle is jumped then I'll have a bit of a guideline on where future articles should sit and I'll be happy to judge my efforts myself. Thanks everyone for easing me into this (I'm known for jumping in the deep end and only then learning the rules!).Colin aka Henri Merton 09:56, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Be Bold is a good guideline as long as you also follow the bold, revert, discuss cycle, which you are doing! Proceed until apprehended!   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  04:58, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
 * OK - done! I shall sit back and await the withering fire! Thanks for your help! Colin aka Henri Merton 14:14, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Chris Green definitely worth at least C - looks a really good article, interesting, comprehensive and well-referenced, although maybe the professional life section could just a bit more sub-sectioning. Always good to have a new face here!! --Bcp67 (talk) 18:06, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that (quiet glow of pride!). You are not the first to suggest subdividing that section but because he did so much riding and training at the same time (and usually with the same horse) nobody can quite suggest how. Two sections on Half Caste etc... Certainly not averse if a way could be found. UPDATE: Just divided that section into three - Early Career - the rider, Intermediate Career - the rider and trainer, and Later Career - the trainer. Think it works.Colin aka Henri Merton 18:40, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Notability question
Following my conversation with Montanabw, and given I'm relatively new to Wikipedia, would anyone help me assess Leonna Mayor's notability or lack thereof? I've created several articles before, and am pretty familiar with guidelines such as WP:PROF and WP:ARTIST, but the lack of an official one for horse racing is proving quite daunting for me. Best, CesareAngelotti (talk) 02:18, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Try WP:NEQUESTRIAN: but if still in doubt, refer to WP:GNG. This is because there are people who hold that GNG is the only valid notability guideline, and the more specific guidelines - such as the many listed at WP:NSPORTS - do not supersede GNG. This of course implies that unless GNG is satisfied, they'll AFD the article regardless of what a specific guideline says. -- Red rose64 (talk) 11:36, 9 June 2015 (UTC)


 * NEQUESTRIAN doesn't encompass horse racing. We probably need a separate section there an NSPORTS.  I'm going to just do it and see what happens.  Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  21:01, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Annnnnd, I posted it here: Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(sports)  Took an abbreviated version of our project page. Feel free to comment there. Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk) 21:36, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Tiller- help please
Sorry to request help for a specific article here, but I have just posted an article on Tiller, a top American turf/ handicap horse of the late 70's and I'm not particularly happy with it. In particular, I want to know what happened after he suffered his career-ending injury in September 1980. Did he pull through? The article could also do with some more quotes, opinions, descriptions etc. I can see from the youtube clips that he was a big, good-looking horse who tended to come from off the pace, but some RS would help.  Tigerboy1966  22:32, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Posted there. But FWIW, for general info in passing, I have: this and found a passing reference at the Paulick Report.  Not much else.  Sad to say, but he probably was canned, such was the fate of broken-down geldings in close proximity to Mexico.   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  20:48, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Golden Horn (horse)
Some issues with disruption at this page. Please take a look.  Tigerboy1966  15:22, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I have now been reported at Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. First time for everything I suppose.  Tigerboy1966  16:12, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I've now got an IP editor 2.123.5.118 following me around and undoing all my edits. Sucks.  Tigerboy1966  21:51, 20 June 2015 (UTC)


 * The cavalry was called and has arrived. Probably the same editor.  THANK YOU, User:Diannaa!!   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  22:10, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
 * There seems to be a continual problem now, I've reverted and reverted again a few changes from another IP today showing the same sort of pattern.--Bcp67 (talk) 18:05, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately it is true. I had 2.120.186.252 reverting my edits today, including a very innocuous edit at Pope Pius IX and Judaism.  Tigerboy1966  20:08, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Is the IP still geolocating to the slough? Tough to do a rangeblock on a dynamic IP. They just go to a different coffee shop.  Meh!  What a jerkwad.  Anyone suggest it's time for him to leave his mommy's basement and get a life? (sigh...)  Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  22:42, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Comment at an AfD
Here:  about Brian Lawrence (jockey). I'm not up on UK riders enough to know if this article can be salvaged or not. Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk) 07:56, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Copyright Violation Detection - EranBot Project
A new copy-paste detection bot is now in general use on English Wikipedia. Come check it out at the EranBot reporting page. This bot utilizes the Turnitin software (ithenticate), unlike User:CorenSearchBot that relies on a web search API from Yahoo. It checks individual edits rather than just new articles. Please take 15 seconds to visit the EranBot reporting page and check a few of the flagged concerns. Comments welcome regarding potential improvements. These possible copyright violations can be searched by WikiProject categories. Use "control-f" to jump to your area of interest (if such a copyvio is present).--Lucas559 (talk) 16:59, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Nomination of pages for deletion
I have received messages that two pages (Gala Stakes and Dragon Stakes) which I created earlier today have been nominated for deletion.

These pages follow the usual formula, and are included in the Other (aka Listed) section of |List of British flat horse races.

Any help in averting this will be appreciated.(JockeyColours (talk) 19:55, 3 July 2015 (UTC))
 * Have added a ref to the BHA Pattern & Listed races (2014) to both articles, which should hopefully help a bit. Have also commented on the deletion pages for each one. --Bcp67 (talk) 08:57, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
 * We may ned to tweak the criteria at WP:NHORSERACING, I uploaded it, but we may need to refine it further.  Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  06:41, 9 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Dragon Stakes kept.  Tigerboy1966  06:42, 9 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Suggest article for "Listed Races". At the moment it tends to link to Conditions races which is unreferenced.  Tigerboy1966   06:45, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
 * That's been on my mind for a little while, although I'd only be able to write it from a British/European perspective. --Bcp67 (talk) 06:49, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Was also on my list of things to do! Happy to help putting sometthing together.(JockeyColours (talk) 17:08, 10 July 2015 (UTC))


 * Listed race: I say start it.  Here are two sources for the US concept: good definition here add'l info here.  Also, note that "Black Type" links to Group races.  We may need to do some merging, reworking and consolidating.  Plus cross-linking between US and UK concepts that are similar but not identical.  We actually may want to think about creating a navbox to move between the different types of races, all these articles would use some improvement... I'm in to help on this with the US side...   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  23:52, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

AP at FAC
Incidentally, just a heads up that I nominated American Pharoah for featured article here: Featured article candidates/American Pharoah/archive1. If you haven't worked on it, I could use at least one horse-knowledgeable reviewer... Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk) 23:54, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Help finding sources for steeplechase article
Hi, I'm looking to improve the article Foxfield Races, but I'm not very familiar with horse racing. The Foxfield Races are a set of steeplechase races in central Virginia. Unfortunately the race's website is geared towards spectators and doesn't list things like the course length, the purse, the class, etc. and only briefly goes into the race's history. I'm not sure if the race is important enough to be covered in sources dealing with steeplechase racing as a whole, but I was hoping to be pointed to sources that might list those kinds of missing facts (maybe sources dealing with steeplechase races in the US, or in Virginia, etc), or others that might deal with the history of the race. Are there any sorts of authoritative, comprehensive sources that WP Horse racing tends to use? Thanks! Puppysnot (talk) 20:26, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Sources are hard to find for that time period, but here is more about the early founding of Foxfield. . A lot of the info in the article needs to be cut out (pass colors, so much about alcohol violations, etc.) The races themselves seem to be mostly claiming races, which are not graded and are seldom notable by themselves, but the meeting itself might make notability requirements. Froggerlaura  ribbit 20:59, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that article was interesting. I've actually already removed a few sections that were unnecessary and I plan to keep trimming. I'll keep looking for better sources as well. Puppysnot (talk) 02:07, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Jerry (horse) and Jerry (racehorse)
Hi, I'm hoping that this wikiproject can help me with a naming issue. These two separate articles surely need better titles, but I don't even have a vague suggestion I could post as a requested move. Is there any standard way of distinguishing these horses? Both are racehorses, both are British, both are race winners, and the birth year of the older horse seems to be unknown.

As a side note, both Jerry (racehorse) and 1840 Grand National could use improvement, particularly with regard to sourcing. I don't have any familiarity with this topic to even know where to start. 209.211.131.181 (talk) 19:01, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
 * We could name them as (St Leger winner) and (Grand National winner) maybe. They are both on the Jerry dab page and will be linked from the race articles, so someone searching for them would be able to find them. --Bcp67 (talk) 19:57, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
 * That might be the only workable solution. If nobody suggests a better one, I'll propose moving to those titles soon. 209.211.131.181 (talk) 02:12, 23 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Yeah, given that neither appears to be a WP:PRIMARY "horse" then by race wins is probably best. That or date of birth.  But not sure that info is available, so... yeah.  I agree.   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  03:35, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Based on the response here, I've filed for a "technical" move request to the titles suggested by Bcp67. If they go through, I'll retarget both original titles to the Jerry disambiguation page. 209.211.131.181 (talk) 16:28, 23 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Or just ask one of us. Anyone with an established user name and old enough account can do moves...   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  09:25, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Category- Horse races in the United States
Contains over 600 entries. Most if not all should be removed and I've started the process of doing so. The races should all be in the state categories. In some cases they already are. That's Overcategorization per WP:Categorization. In most cases a article doesn't go in both a category and its parent. So I'm going to changing categories on these pages. Many of them can be put in 'Recurring sporting event in ....'. Some are in 'Recurring event' but Recurring sporting event is more specific. I'll also be adding establishments by year and locale (Like if a race in New York started in 1940, the article can be categorized 1940 establishments in New York) if the article if it hasn't already been categorized that....William 22:51, 8 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Don't overdo it: You can create cats for the big states like California, New York, or Kentucky, but let's not have two-article cats for races in smaller states, OK?  I don't see a need to fully difffuse...   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  08:43, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
 * As of the moment I haven't come across a race state that doesn't exist already. When I do come across any, I will just do the other categorizing and come back when all the rest are finished and see if we have enough entries for a category 'Racing in' that particular state. One other thing- If the race is no longer being run, I'll add the relevant disestablishment category and recurring events category also....William 10:12, 9 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Two thoughts: 1)  Be very careful about disestablishment - a lot of USA races get renamed (for promotional purposes; examples include the Awesome Again Stakes, which might now be on name three..._  2)  As for small cats, look at Category:Horse racing in New Mexico - there are multiple categories, all for two tracks and as many races.  Wonder what you think of ones that small?  Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  05:45, 10 August 2015 (UTC)


 * 1- A race that has changed names should still have only one article. All its history should be put in its most recent name, make sure all past names are mentioned in it, and the articles on the race under its old names redirected to its current name. This is standard for baseball, golf, and tennis articles. Philadelphia Athletics redirects to Oakland Athletics, Colgate Dinah Shore redirects to ANA Inspiration etc. I'll be careful and am willing to do this work myself or flag them for your attention and we work on them together.
 * 2- We can do one or two things with New Mexico. I can nominate the category for merging using the WP:SMALLCAT argument. I'm sure a CFD would result in a merge to Horse Races in the United States if the category has just two entries. Or we can just let this one stand since it has already been created. What do you think?...William 09:56, 10 August 2015 (UTC)


 * One more thing, if I send Races in New Mexico to WP:CFD, I have to fill the category if I were to find other races while I do the Horse races in the United States sorting out. Nominators are supposed to make a good faith effort to find more entries. Particularly if they nominate under SMALLCAT criteria. The CFD will run a month at least (I nominated some 'People from' categories for merging on July 11 and they are still waiting for an administrator to close them. The CFD backlog has been terrible for sometime), and I might find more entries....William 13:27, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree that a race that has a name change should remain at a single article, with appropriate moves and redirects as needed. No worries.  That said, we tend to NOT add commercial sponsorship to the titles (generally just note it in the lead, e.g. Kentucky Derby, etc.) - often it changes from year to year, and it's not COMMONNAME.   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  19:41, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I think that New Mexico probably needs to stay for now; Maybe merging "Horse races in New Mexico" and "Horse racing in New Mexico" into a single cat, though???  Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  19:41, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I just came across two races in West Virginia. My inclination is to leave them till the end and see if there are more before creating any category. As for NM, do a double merge NM races into Horse racing in NM and Horse races in the US? I'll start a CFD if you say so....William 19:48, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree that WV needs to wait and see - it is becoming a major horse racing venue (Charles Town Classic, etc.) but I agree to wait and see what you find. As for NM, do as you see fit, but if you just empty one category (recategorizing the articles into the othe) and add the parent cat to the one you intend to keep, won't a bot just erase the blanked category eventually? I know you can't CfD AND blank it, (I got in trouble for doing that once) but I think it will go away on its own if emptied...?   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  03:51, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
 * While the CFD is taking place, the entries in the NM category stay there. The category wouldn't be erased till the CFD is complete. I'll just wait till the end and make sure we don't have more entries before sending the NM category to CFD. Right now I'm working on my next ebook. I do Wikipedia edits when I'm stuck for words or while I'm drinking coffee early in the morning like I am now. To go through the 800 remaining pages is probably a month long task for me....William 09:48, 11 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm saying don't file a CfD on the merge, just be bold and redirect the categories. The empty cat will eventually be bot-erased, I think. I think it's non-controversial (if you and I agree, no one else in the WPHR peanut gallery has commented and no one reverts you I say "proceed until apprehended" on that one. But if you'd rather do CfD, ping me and I shall certainly support.   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  21:05, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Keen Ice
Anyone want to take a pop at creating this article: it will surely get a fair number of views in the next few day. I would normally leap in and do it myself but I have Borderlescott in my sandbox at the moment, and as anyone familiar with European racing will know, that is a fair-sized job.  Tigerboy1966  22:45, 29 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I can take a whack at it if you will do the pedigree chart as you are able?  Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  01:32, 30 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I'll provide pedigree in the morning, if it still needs doing. Wasn't this the horse named for a term in curling? Strange to think how American Pharoah, the hottest equine in a generation, was cold-shouldered by Frosted and Keen Ice; gotta wonder about all that kizzle kazzle on the turn. Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 02:56, 30 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm fried. Go for it. Article is up and running.  No shit, the New York Times described them as like bumper cars.  AP was gritty and sure wants to win, he gave it his best shot.   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  03:58, 30 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Tigerboy1966 did the pedigree; I added the curling reference. It's the last day of the WikiCup cycle but there might be an easy-ish DYK for you with the Travers upset and Keen Ice's unusual/interesting name. Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 12:35, 30 August 2015 (UTC)


 * It would have taken me another FA to make it to the next round of the wikicup, but I was valiant to make it to the semis... LOL! I'll do up a DYK.   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  00:56, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

While I was at it
Noticed we had not created an article on Upset (horse). Can you believe it? So I did. Anyone wanting to expand it is welcome. Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk) 04:25, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Good feature
Article in Blood-Horse online about Ireland, numerous assorted tidbits, might be helpful for a few articles: http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/features/ireland-and-the-thoroughbred-798   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  15:25, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Anyone up for an article improvement drive?
Goal: Get Standardbred to GA. Given that I've never seen live harness racing in my life, I'm asking for helpers. Anyone want to lend a hand? rightly noticed that this article isn't all it should be. may be one of our most knowledgeable editors on harness racing generally. Anyone from the US want to pop by? , do you have any thoughts? Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk) 00:41, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Turkish Delights
I have created the following pages:
 * International Topkapi Trophy
 * International Bosphorus Cup
 * List of Turkish flat horse races

Any help on improving and expanding would be most welcome.  Tigerboy1966  15:46, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

May be of interest
Project members may be interested in this: Talk:Jumping_(horse). Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk) 23:04, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Draft:Balthazar King (Horse) - notable?
Dear horse racing experts: Is this a notable race horse? There appear to be lots of news reports.&mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 19:51, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'd say so, a familiar name to me as a NH follower. Dual Cheltenham Festival winner and Grand National runner-up so there should be enough coverage to establish notability. Doesn't need the (horse) dab though, as there is no other article of the same green. --Bcp67 (talk) 20:35, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Okay, I have moved it to mainspace at Balthazar King. Please check it over; I know nothing about how a racehorse article should look.&mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 11:25, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

WPEQ question
Anyone have access to the Times? I'd love to read this article but it's behind a paywall. Help? http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article4481123.ece (FWIW, see Talk:Lipizzan.   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  23:59, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Chrome drama
If anyone wants to go over to California Chrome and comment on Talk:California_Chrome, there is a discussion. Here is the history: {https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=California_Chrome&action=history] I am kind of busy with my RfA and so I shall leave this situation to the collective wisdom of this project. Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk) 05:37, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

Princess Royal Stakes
I've just started an article on the "new" Princess Royal Stakes at Newmarket, which was previously a redirect. The history of this race name is a little complex and I'd be happy for anyone to have a look and try to make what I've written a bit clearer, thanks. --Bcp67 (talk) 19:23, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * looks like a good attempt to explain a confusing situation. The fact that the name has been transferred to another autumn race for staying fillies does not help. I'm currently doing articles on Yorkshire Oaks winners, so I expect the issue will crop up from time to time.  Tigerboy1966  20:25, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Cheers. I have a few links to fix still on this, which need re-pointing to the Ascot race, but I'll sort those out in the next few days. And there's also the "new" Pride Stakes to be done in a couple of weeks' time!! --Bcp67 (talk) 07:10, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * And that's now done, thanks to User:JockeyColours, so we have all the various incarnations of the Princess Royal & Pride Stakes in place. I think! --Bcp67 (talk) 09:07, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Anyone up for a new GA push?
I'm open to any copilots who want to lend a hand bringing Beholder to GA before the Breeders' Cup. I have a month, basically... Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk) 04:13, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I think that the article looks like a GA prospect and I will happily chip in: I can see a few things which need to be referenced. The only thing that is obviously lacking is an image or two. User:Froggerlaura is usually the "go-to" editor for these.  Tigerboy1966  20:18, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * She and I have both been ripping our hair out trying to find one! I keep surfing Flickr and other sources to no avail.  May wind up writing one of the professional photographers who cover racing to see if they will release an image under a CC license.   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  04:12, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Good luck with the search. I did get Duke of Marmalade to GA without an image of the horse. You can use images of people and locations associated with the horse to give some visual interest.  Tigerboy1966  06:20, 29 September 2015 (UTC)


 * It's up, anyone want to ping a good reviewer?  Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  07:28, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Another GA candidate
Golden Horn (horse) looks a rock solid B to me so it should be worth putting up for GA.  Tigerboy1966  18:13, 4 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Ping me when you need a review, I don't think I'm too involved to review it!  Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  00:25, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Looks in good shape to me, I've fixed a few minor typos and bits. Seems to fit the GA criteria and the copyright status of the images all appear to be OK. Worth putting up for review now? --Bcp67 (talk) 16:43, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks to everyone for the help. I was thinking about waiting for a month as he is tentatively scheduled to run in the Breeders' Cup Turf and the article would have a more rounded-off feel- he's 99% certain to be retiring at the end of the year.  Tigerboy1966  19:56, 5 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Given the GA backlog, you could probably put it up now but continue working on it. I just put up Beholder if for no other reason than these articles will get TONS of hits on BC weekend,  The GA Cup finals may pull a reviewer sooner rather than later, but I've had GANs and FACs that I had to update in real time, and they still sailed through. It's a bummer that you have too many edits to review Beholder's GAN, but if you want to put up Golden Horn and think I'll treat you fairly, I'd be glad to either review or find you a reviewer.    Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  01:10, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Waiting for the BC sounds pretty sensible and we can work on the article in the meantime. Do you think a table of his runs would add any value to the article? --Bcp67 (talk) 10:53, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I was thinking the same thing.  Tigerboy1966  18:47, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I'll give it a go, using the one from Frankel as the pattern. --Bcp67 (talk) 19:02, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry about the duplication. I know how annoying it is to put time into a project and then find that someone has done it already. btw does anyone think that the drama on the talkpage and the vandalism in June will be a problem for GA.  Tigerboy1966  19:00, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I hadn't started it at all, so no problem there! I don't think it will be a problem as it's all done and dusted now and the article is stable without any ongoing conflict. --Bcp67 (talk) 20:18, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Robert Cowell: notable trainer?
(Moved from my talk) Hey, Montana. Can you take a look at this: Robert Cowell? Does this satisfy the specific notability guideline for horse people? Because it surely does not satisfy the general notability guidelines per WP:GNG based on the two linked references. Does the equine project normally accept links to sports stats sites as "significant" coverage? Anyway, my interest in this is limited, but it popped up on my radar when another editor doing page patrol asked me if I thought my article was notable, to which my reaction was "huh?" Until two days ago, the page was a redirect I created to a 1948 Olympic athlete better known as "Bob Cowell". I am curious to hear your opinion on point in light of the recent addition of a specific notability guideline for horses and horse people to WP:NSPORTS. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 02:01, 14 October 2015 (UTC)


 * I saw it, I suggest you cross-post at WikiProjct horse racing so that the UK/Ire folks can look and comment.  The criterion is "multiple Grade 1 or Group 1 race wins," and they can probably assess that in an instant.  The article definitely needs more content.   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  14:16, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Four Group 1 wins in Europe, including two this season with Goldream. Satisfies the horse racing notability for me. Article very light on content and will need some addition to make it worth keeping. --Bcp67 (talk) 18:08, 14 October 2015 (UTC)


 * To save a RfD, can one of you who is familiar with him add to the article and maybe comment at talk if you can't get to it right away? And also thank Pigsonthewing for de-prodding it?  Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  15:38, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

St Leger or St. Leger?
A minor thing, but should St. Leger Stakes use the full stop or not? Currently the article title does, though the article itself is inconsistent in usage and so are most other related articles. I'm asking mainly because I'm not sure whether Jerry (St Leger winner) should be moved to Jerry (St. Leger winner). Thanks, Jenks24 (talk) 12:55, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I reckon "not". Doncaster's website and the BHA's list both favour St rather than St. and I think that's true elswhere too. --Bcp67 (talk) 14:31, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

BC15
Hi gang, Nyquist (horse) has been created and needs the wikignomes for a pedigree. I think Stephanie's Kitten needs an article too. Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk) 23:48, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Gold mine!
These France Sire TV videos are cc-licensed and screenshots from them can be used in our project articles, I've used previous versions in Tonalist, Wise Dan, Lucky Pulpit, Kathy Ritvo and so on... Thank you, ! Here are some new ones from this years' Breeders' Cup and there are UK horses as well as US horses profiled. Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk) 05:22, 1 November 2015 (UTC)


 * American Pharoah pre-Breeders' Cup
 * Golden Horn
 * Ashford stallions

Editor to watch
Keep an eye out for the work of User:Patrick bartram 1. Creates articles which are needed, like Michael Bell but just copied from other websites. To save them from speedy deletion I'm doing quick re-writes but more eyes would be useful, thanks. --Bcp67 (talk) 21:20, 2 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Probably better check Robert Cowell, then. he's a busy boy Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  04:49, 3 November 2015 (UTC)


 * If he is violating copyright, he really needs to reported....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 10:31, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
 * It's been picked up and there are messages on his talk page about copyvios, and I added what I hope is a friendly message there myself. --Bcp67 (talk) 12:58, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm just trying to put info up — Preceding unsigned comment added by Patrick bartram 1 (talk • contribs) 17:52, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Correct name of Melbourne Cup winner is – Prince Of Penzance
My move has been reverted by User:Tigerboy1966. In the talk page of Talk:Prince Of Penzance a discussion has begun.

For brevity I have cut enough evidence from two sources how thoroughbreds are named, both in the US and how the horse is registered in Australia.

name (of a Thoroughbred) Names of North American Thoroughbreds are registered by the Jockey Club. They can be no longer than 18 characters, including punctuation and spaces. The words the, and, by, for, in, and, a are usually—but not always— lowercase unless they are the first word in the name. For exact spelling, spacing, and capitalization, check Registered Thoroughbred Names book published by the Jockey Club or on the Jockey Club’s website, http://home.jockeyclub.com/.


 * From the Pedigree report as registered by the Australian Stud Book - [Prince Of Penzance] Brudder Andrusha (talk) 17:14, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Pat Eddery
Pat Eddery has died, aged 63. One of the leading figures in the game in the 70s, 80s and 90s - I'm sure Tigerboy amongst others will have seen him ride and win many times. He's nominated for RD on WP:ITN/C if anyone would like to add to the discussion. The article could do with a bit of work, definitely. --Bcp67 (talk) 12:00, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * On it (expanding and improving) for the last couple of hours. Real shock.  Tigerboy1966   21:46, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * It's easy for these RD pages to become tributes, as most of the obits very naturally focus on praise. I will be looking to add some balance over the next couple of days. There were times when he was not on the Christmas card lists of Starkey and Piggott and he was sometimes criticised for exaggerated hold-up tactics, notably on EGS in the Derby.  Tigerboy1966  22:16, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I'll watchlist the article; sounds like his personal life was not drama-free.  Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  08:31, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Credit to everyone involved for getting the article up to scratch and linked from ITN. Certainly since he retired from the saddle his life seems to have been complicated - when riding he was a very quiet public figure, with no hint of drama in his life. --Bcp67 (talk) 08:47, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Inline citations
I've noticed that a lot of race articles have had a tag added to them asking for inline citations - results are cited to the Racing Post website but not against the year in question. I don't know if this a huge problem but I've had a go at "solving" it on a new article - Churchill Stakes. Could anyone interested have a look and see what you think - stick with it, keep on with the normal way or come up with something different. Thanks. --Bcp67 (talk) 20:13, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Why not place the Racing Post template link directly in the year's column? The RP arrow is sufficiently enough for readers to recognize it as a reference link. It just seems strange to add another column to a table for references as it messes with the table design for the posted data. Maok3 (talk) 20:53, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
 * OK done that - problem is, it goes against the rule of not using embedded citations from WP:CITE. I've now gone back to a full ref & citation - let's see how this goes. --Bcp67 (talk) 21:25, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
 * We should avoid embedded links not rule them out completely, otherwise they would not allow it at all when editing. Besides, if racingpost, equibase or france-galop websites disappear I think we'll have a bigger problem than avoiding WP:Linkrot'ing.. If the article is reviewed for a GA or FA and its contested, then we could do a fully ref&citation, otherwise for the rest I'm personally still in favour of using RP templates(inside date column or like before). Maok3 (talk) 22:01, 12 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Formatting early on with a small article can be a bit "quick and dirty" but keep in mind that redoing 50 citations for GA or FA is a huge pain in the butt; when possible, it's good to do a full link as you go (or use raw URLs and run ReFill, if it will parse the web site linked to). For the chart, I suggest adding one more column, titled "Ref" and then put the links there rather than piling them at the bottom.   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  06:05, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Looks like we've gone back to the "normal" way of doing things, so I'll leave it alone. I haven't got the time or willpower to go through all the articles and make proper citations anyway. --Bcp67 (talk) 20:48, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
 * With almost 10,000 articles tagged for WP Horse racing, I'd agree. But if the Churchill article is "normal", (i.e. No inline cites) I'd suggest considering a new "normal"??  The simple refs there are fine for a quick-and-dirty, but refill can't parse them (refill does better with just raw URL between ref tags). It's not a huge deal if you aren't going for DYK, GA or FA, but if you do, then it's a pain to redo everything.   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  08:43, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I think the return to the old format was my fault. I didn't realise that there was a trial of a new format taking place!  In terms of day to day usability of the race pages I see three negatives of the alternative format: 1) the table is cluttered up by the link to the reference 2) the references take up much more room (1 per line instead of 10) 3) the references don't clearly identify the year (which is the differentiating factor), and there is the risk that many of the references will have identical names. Can we be creative in specifying the reference name or must it match the title of the page being linked to? In special cases where full links are needed it should be straightforward to automate the conversion to that format, so please let me know if this is needed anywhere.  (JockeyColours (talk) 07:19, 20 November 2015 (UTC))

In other articles, such as the horse race stats charts it's not that difficult to add one more column for references, takes little room, and all are properly formatted at the bottom. But these articles also are not apt to ever go up for GA or FA the way the "big" race articles might...so maybe it's no big deal. Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk) 09:02, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Helen Johnson Houghton
A new article has been created for Helen Johnson Houghton, one of the female pioneers of Flat racing in Britain - the trainer of the 1956 2,000 Guineas winner but denied the official credit for it by the Jockey Club's prejudice against women trainers. Anyone interested in improving it? --Bcp67 (talk) 21:52, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
 * And about time too! I will look to "port" some info and sources from racehorse articles.  Tigerboy1966  22:06, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Anyone object if I tell Eric Corbett about this one? He was instrumental on Florence Nagle.  Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  20:44, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Vandal alert
The drama surrounding the horse Runhappy is spilling onto wiki a little bit Perhaps watchlist that article, Edgar Prado, Jim McIngvale for BLP issues, and just a general lookout for drive-by IPs and new accounts. Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk) 08:42, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Would I be bad to prod tag this?
Blue Blue Sea. I don't want to be a bitch, but this is kind of self-promotion for a self-published book. Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk) 09:39, 29 November 2015 (UTC)


 * No, but I'd AFD it rather than PROD. The PROD can be taken down by anyone, including the author creator, for any reason at all....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 11:27, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Racing jargon
Do we have an article for new people in horse racing that explain the jargon we often use in articles such as 'bolts up', 'off the bridle', 'racing freely', etc.? I think it would be useful so we can link to the terms in there when needed or when a reviewer asks to make it more understandable to the general public. Maok3 (talk) 23:16, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
 * There are two glossaries: for Australian and NZ horse racing and North America. Froggerlaura  ribbit |undefined 21:26, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the links. It seems that some of those terms are listed for those already involved in racing and mean something entirely different from one continent to another(Fractions for instance is the speed at a certain point in a race, 'going fast fractions upfront'.. whereas for Aus it means something completely different). Anyway, the 3 random examples I gave aren't in any of the 2 glossaries so could be that Europe racing needs one of its own.. Maok3 (talk) 23:35, 11 December 2015 (UTC)


 * I've long advocated merging the glossaries. Some terms are universal, some regional. It would be a lot of work, but if everyone pitched in, we could do it. Glossary of equestrian terms tries to be worldwide with good cross-links between say, halter and headcollar...  ;-)    Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  03:49, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm sure the few dozens of general terms we'll use are universally translated the same no matter the jurisdiction( if not those will be put into the regional glossaries). I was thinking about describing the in-running terminology like the 3 examples I gave above (but also some terms pre-race like odds-on favourite, and post race like found lame) for non-racing public, that means each term will have to be described in at least 1-2 sentences and they can be linked directly eg. page#jargon. I can go ahead and create a basic one so I'll leave the discussion open here until more people pitch in before I start it. Cheers Maok3 (talk) 04:42, 14 December 2015 (UTC)


 * How about just adding them to the Aus/NZ page - or sandbox a UK page - or something... May I suggest that the format at Glossary of North American horse racing or Glossary of equestrian terms be used? i.e. same formatting throughout and citations for everything as it is added?  Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  05:03, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Sure but following that format means it won't be directly linkable which was the purpose of it all and do you mean citations for the jargon definition ? as that'll be pretty hard to find since we'll be the ones giving them the accepted meaning. Maok3 (talk) 12:08, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Requested move
See Talk:Precisionist. Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk) 05:01, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Long overdue project
Just moved the North American glossary into a sandbox for merging all the nations into one: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Horse racing/Glossary sandbox. Have at it, especially all you Brits. Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk) 06:30, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm going to slowly work on it. I have an idea on how to make each term linkable without losing that format. As for citations I'll try to see how to find ones for the terms that I'll add. But to be clear we'll add/remove universally accepted jargons in there correct ? Maok3 (talk) 12:26, 14 December 2015 (UTC)


 * There is no need to reinvent the wheel; for examples of "making each term linkable," see what I did at American Pharoah and other FA-class articles; I linked to the glossaries, but the letter, i.e. something like Foobar race The glossary as I imported it probably should not have any terms removed, though that would be subject to discussion on the original article page. See Glossary of equestrian terms for examples of how to handle the same concept that has two different names (i.e. halter/headcollar, etc.)  It is super-duper easy to find sources for terms, as there are "horse racing terms" glossaries all over the internet - I used the one at Equibase as a source for multiple sources (again, see the formatting of the glossary).  Many of the Aus/NZ terms already have footnotes, so those would be the first ones I'd add, just to get the hang of the formatting.   might also be willing to help is you ask, she was invaluable on the North American glossary. Another glossary we might want to tap is Glossary of bets offered by UK bookmakers and perhaps the definitions list at Parimutuel_betting, List of bets, etc. (are there other betting terms glossaries??).  (meh...) This is going to be a fairly big project, but I think one worth doing and doing well!  (JMHO)   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  22:23, 15 December 2015 (UTC)