Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ice Hockey/Archive14

Estonian ice hockey teams
Can I bring your attention to a number of articles about Estonian ice hockey teams that have been created recently, namely Tallinna HK Stars, Kohtla-Järve Viru Sputnik, Narva PSK, Tallinn Purikad, Tallinna HK Stars and Tartu välk 494. I have added an intro to each to assert notability but the articles are in need of a clean-up to the format used elsewhere. Regards. --Malcolmxl5 01:39, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I don't know any Estonian, but I'm pretty confident that I translated the infoboxes to English very well. Need to update the infoboxes so they are the actually templates, though...I'll do that soon.  Bsroiaadn Talk 03:13, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Joining
Hi, I would like to join this Wikiproject, please. I know a lot about ice hockey and enjoy watching and playing it. --Alien joe 20:43, 25 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Welcome. If you want to be a participant, just throw your name here: WikiProject_Ice_Hockey/Participant.  And edit what you will.  DMighton 20:47, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Contradicting guidelines
The guidelines (or policies) of thie WikiProject page, are contradictive. NHL team pages -player name diacritics, hide only? - and North American hockey related pages, hide all diacritics? Aren't the NHL team pages, North American hockey related? Policies need clarification. GoodDay 22:35, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd like to stay out of this discussion since it isn't improving our work it only takes our energy. Most people probably knows my view so I'm not going to start discussing anything, I'll just make this input: Although I don't agree with the removal of diacritics from player names, I can understand your objections and buy your arguments. But when it comes to place names we're at a whole other level. The basic argument for keeping diacritics away from this encyclopedia has been that 'the NHL does not recognize them, why should we?' . We're not talking player names anymore, we're talking about cities names, there's even countries that have diacritics in their name. The NHL does not decide how a country's name is spelled. For place names, let's just stick to the wikipolicy and use english name if available and native name if not. --Krm500 00:31, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Personally, I think we should keep all diacritics off of North American (including the NHL) pages. Should European pages have them? Yea. Asian, African, etc? Yes. But, I don't think they should be on North American pages. Whether or not English came from the same alphabet as the other languages that use diacritics, they aren't regarded as letters in English like they are in other languages. (See Alphabets derived from the Latin) I think it's a fair compromise to keep them off North American pages but leave them on all other pages (including player pages and international tournaments where North American is involved, as long as it's not just North America that is involved).  Bsroiaadn Talk 16:05, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I would say to remove diacritics from placenames that are commonly rendered in English ... say, well known European team names. Place names that aren't commonly rendered, such as players' birthtowns, don't fall under the naming convention that the English standard is used.  RGTraynor  16:15, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Truly, I understand how Krm500 and Djsasso feel, but the argument it offends the people of those places just doesn't cut it. I'm not anti-Slavic, I just want all North American hockey related pages to be in sinc (concerning diacritics), the way Non-North American hockey related pages should be in sinc. Things have simply evolved (since the only player names agreement), again this isn't an attempted slap on the face to Non-North Americans or an -I'm right, you're wrong- thing. GoodDay 17:28, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Again you seem to be missing the point. Place names are different from human names in that in english unless there is a translation we still use the diacritics. Even in english atlas's or encyclopedias. This is not a wikipedia thing, this is common practice as mentioned in one of your many other posts on this subject. You keep claiming you want the arguring to end but yet you keep bringing it up over and over after everyone come to compromise. I think things are quite fine how they are now and that sleeping dogs should be left alone or one might think you are anti-whatever. --Djsasso 16:13, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Acutally, you're missing the point. If you want the arguing to end, except the 'no diacritics' at all the North American hockey related pages (more importantly, except majority opinon). In terms of the number of Hockey related pages, the vast majority have diacritics (since the vast majority are Non-North American, of course), why isn't this enough. This thing about offending people of those countries is (again) a weak complaint. Thing is, you and Krm500 are in the minority (respect that). PS- feel free to add 'diacritics' to North American names & places that are shown on Non-North American hockey related pages. Please, I'm begging you 50/50. GoodDay 17:00, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Checked my 'Funk & Wagnalls' Atlas, all those 'place names' are in English. So yes, there's English versions of them. GoodDay 17:33, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think we are in the minority. There have actually been alot more that have come out to say use them than have said don't use them and RGTraynor has said for uncommon birthplaces the english standard is not used and he was the most actively against diactritics apart from you. Place names are supposed to have diacritics when complete translations do not exist. (ie completely different english spellings) Just removing the diacritics doesn't constitute a translation. --Djsasso 16:39, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm hiding the diacritics on the place names (again). The majority prefer it (plus I've got proof, of there being 'english versions'). GoodDay 18:19, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * All 30 NHL team official websites (rosters), don't show the diacritics (this 30 articles 'main' reliable source). GoodDay 20:12, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I will be reverting all these changes as you are a single person trying to decide policy. --Djsasso 16:39, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * But he's not a single person, he has multiple people supporting him. I note the reversion you made to the Devils page.  I refer you to the official Devils roster page.  You will note there are NO DIACRITICS on the page.  We don't use them in the U.S. or North America; this is not the Ukrainian or Czech Wikipedias, this is the English Wikipedia.  We've got a consensus on spelling for the project (it's Canadian for the most part); this is just as solid a consensus.  I thought this fight was dead and over a LONG time ago.  Can we please stop wasting our time over something so childish?  Instead of working on improving the pages with actual constructive edits, we're bickering like schoolchildren over minutia, wasting valuable time that could be spent building up articles to featured status, which I THOUGHT was the point of this project and Wikipedia in general.  Seriously, knock this the **** off already, it's ridiculous... that goes for everyone, I don't care whether you're for or against the damn things, let's just pick a side and stick with it, once and for all. Anthony Hit me up... 17:41, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia standard says he is one person trying to change wikipedia policy. But that wasn't my point. My point was that just deciding to go change policy on project pages that contradict overall wiki policy was a bit much especially when there was no clear consensus in the project to do so, and that he was fighting a battle that he should just let go as many other people down below have said. --Djsasso 21:00, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * See my 'explanation posting' at bottom of this discussion. I'm no longer fighting a lost cause. GoodDay 22:11, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Things (I thought) were settled for a few days. But, apparently one editor disagrees. That's one against the others. GoodDay 19:54, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Should we change North America to US + Canada seeing as Mexico uses diacritics? Also English does use diacritics although rarely, but they do exist. T Rex  | talk  17:46, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The NHL OFFICIAL TEAM WEBSITES don't use the 'diacritics' for player and birthplace names. Why does a 'minority' have the last say? Making this a 'personal' (no way, GoodDay) thing, isn't helping matters. GoodDay 19:41, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm ending this apparent PoV dispute, for FutureNJGov's sake (and for the sake of the 30 NHL team pages). Djsasso, (by suggesting one editor was determining policy), was too much. I don't want this to become a Djsasso VS GoodDay thing. Furthermore, I've suggested to FNJGov, that he report myself and Djsasso' to Administrators, for our disruptive behaviour. PS- suggest we ignore the official websites as they're apparently unreliable sources. GoodDay 20:26, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I hope you're being sarcastic. You were not being disruptive; FutureNJGov was more so than you. Even though I disagree, I thought that you had backing of the NHL websites to not show diacritics on place names. It makes sense because we have already decided to not show them on player names. bmitchelf•T•F 21:03, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not being sarcastic. I'm just 'bewildered' by Djsasso's (indirect) suggestion of me 'being' a control freak. GoodDay 21:09, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I was pointing to the last sentence, as well, since I thought that's was coming out of your mouth, but I guess you're just repeating the other side's point. As I said, I would rather show place names in their proper form, personally, but that's just not how it's done in English or here. bmitchelf•T•F 21:33, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, 'bout that. I'm just disgusted, perhaps an Administrator warning, would benefit myself and Djsasso. GoodDay 21:48, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not a matter majority vs minority its a matter of what the Manual of Style says which is use the English version of the foreign place name but if there is no English version then use the native spelling +diacritics.  T Rex  | talk  21:56, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * But there are 'English versions'. GoodDay 22:03, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * An English version is not simply removing the diacritics, its a change in spelling. Compare Wien/Vienna, Warszawa/Warsaw or Roma/Rome.  T Rex  | talk  22:40, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Exactly what T Rex said. I've tried to stay out of this discussion but I've been following it closely. What has happen is without consensus users have decided to change guidelines and policies. Seriously, is this really what we should be focusing on? I've been thinking of leaving based on all the bs going on here right now. GoodDay, you said to me that a compromise is give and take. Well it's time to start giving. We are not trying to change the current agreement of having diacritics and none English letters such as Å, Ä, Ö, Ø, hidden on the NHL team articles for players. We're just saying that we can not break wikipedia's policy on place names based on the ignorance of the NHL and the NHLPA . --Krm500 22:18, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * And now we know we know why there never has been world peace. C'mon guys seriously, this is not a serious issue at all, and yet pages & pages (AND PAGES!) have been dedicated to it while a lot of articles within our Project scope are eroding into crap. This last resurrection of the discussion really should never have happened, fully knowing what happened in the last one, in that all it does is get people disliking each other again and getting people, as Krm500 so aptly said, fed up with all the bs. This is merely a problem where there is NO RIGHT OR WRONG ANSWER.... Okay, okay, this is clearly not solving anything all this back & forth nonsense. This is not a consensus issue, nor is it an ignorance issue. So why don't we stop alienating all our European friends across the pond? We've had more than a few leave or threaten to leave the project because of this same old, stupid, pointless argument.... get over youselves, accept your differences and move on.... I personally don't like the diacratics, but that's a convenience issue, and it has no root in anything contributing to this discussion. I would much rather (as I'm sure most of you), would rather see this issue go unresolved, than to see the North American "consensus" result in the departure of our project members from around the globe. I WILL drop the gloves with anyone who lobbies to let that happen :) Croat Canuck  talk 22:34, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Droping your gloves won't be necessary. Having the NHL and NHLPA being described as ignorant (an indirect 'shot' at english) was the last insult (for me). Suggest we start removing the official NHL team website links from the 30 NHL team pages (since they're non-reliable, with erroneous spelt 'european' place names). GoodDay 22:54, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * That was in no way meant to be a 'shot' at the english language, I've stroked out that line since it was not supposed to insult anyone. I'm just saying that the NHL is not a reliable source when it comes to place names. And just because the NHL does not acknowledge diacritics mean that we can break Wikipedia policy. I'd like this to end right now, can we stick by the old agreement to hide diacritics from player names, and agree upon following Wikipedia policy on place names. --Krm500 23:23, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I definitely agree Krm500. I mean, the Canadian/American spelling debate is just as, if not more, arguable and yet we've had no problems with it for a long time, so we can definitely have this done without problems or stepping on anyone's toes. Croat Canuck  talk 23:28, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * In case nobody has noticed, I've restored the diacritics (for birthplaces) on the NHL team pages (even ones Djssaso and Krm500, missed). Now, I've 'givin' (big time), how's about we 'remove' unwiki-linked diacritics from Non-North American hockey related pages (including the Player pages)? Eitherway, keep the diacritics on the NHL team pages. And again, I suggest we 'agree' to remove those 'unreliable sources' (the NHL official websites). GoodDay 00:09, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Will you kids calm down, please? And what is it about diacritics that is an European point of view? Isn't the non-diacritic view a North-American one then? And I believe people have to calm down, this is not a very important issue, too much time has been wasted. I'd like to see the diacritics stay, because they're part of the people's name, no matter what the NHL says. Still, I am not going to fight over it. And GoodDay, please don't take this so personally. All this sarcarsm and irony on edit summaries are not doing any good. It's better for everyone to see what are the pros and cons and to make the decision. Just my opinion, peace and love, everyone. And about my first sentence, just kidding :-) --Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 00:19, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * This kid has stopped. GoodDay 00:27, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well there you go. Serte I merely brought up the North-American vs. European mentality because that's the mentality that's been driving these arguments the whole way for the most part. Croat Canuck  talk 00:35, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I find this argument completely pointless and a waste of a lot of good editor's time. While many of you could be busy contributing to the betterment of Wikipedia, you are all embroiled in this useless discussion. I'm glad to see that many editors, like myself save for this occasion, have distanced themselves from this debate, which is something I would hope more of you would do before it results in a full blown conflict and/or something that ends up at WP:LAME. Step back and reassess the amount of time you're spending on this, and consider how much more you could be doing instead. All this is doing is bloating the talk pages of several articles, and producing nothing. Kaiser matias 03:41, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well said. Skudrafan1 04:04, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

In general, I agree that edit warring and bickering is not productive. As I said above, I don't think that a topic like this will ever generate a really solid consensus, so it's one I tend to avoid. However, considering that this is the English Wikipedia, and basically all English secondary sources (which are what WP articles are supposed to build upon) do not use diacritic marks, I can't imagine why, if it's not in the sources, it should be in WP. That does seem to me like an imposition of foreign languages on an English language publication. The Florence article uses "Florence" rather than "Firenze." I would argue that spelling disputes of this nature are rather similar to that. Croctotheface 04:48, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I love in this particular case how all us prominent editors who have stayed away from this argument for so long just gang up on this silliness... well done Wikipedians! Croat Canuck  talk 21:09, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Offering an explanation for my 'recent' posts & activities here. For these last few months, I've had a goal (no hockey pun, intended), to 'hide/remove' diacritics from the NHL team pages (related pages) and 'show/restore' diacritics on IIHF team pages (related pages). I came close (say 99%), many things were agreed upon (by both sides). My inability, to get that 'last' concession from pro diacritics editors (concerning player birthplaces at NHL rosters), was -for lack of better word- 'heartbreaking' and 'bitter'. But, if that's how it's gotta be, so be it. Thanks to all (both sides) who have compromised, up to this point. Here's to a 'great' 2007-08 NHL season (the League's 90th) and to a great '2007 Juniors summit seris'. GoodDay 00:14, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

All-Decade Teams
Does anyone make All-Decade Team lists for the National Hockey League? I am trying to find out if Rick Martin (7 consecutive National Hockey League All-Star Games and 4 consecutive Official NHL All-Star Teams) is on the team of the 70's if one exists. It would be helpful for his bio and for The French Connection (hockey), which is currently a WP:GA on hold.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 06:34, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * P.S. I am aware Martin was the beneficiary of Bobby Hull's defection to the WHA as inheritor of the perception best left wing in the game during the mid 70's, but that does not matter for this question.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 06:55, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * No as far as I'm concerned there have been no notable All-Decade mentions. If there were, I'm not even sure Martin would top the list, although he would be close. hr.ca  <i style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">.com</i> 21:01, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the NHL has ever done something of the like. Kaiser matias 01:37, 29 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I am not sure if he would top the list either. I think it would be the case where if there were 10 lists he might be first team on 5, second team on 3 on third team on 2. That is just my guess.  I am not just interested in whether the National Hockey League produces such a list.  If another respected entity produces one that would be interesting.  I just thought, Hockey News, Sporting News, Associated Press, Sports Illustrated might have produced a list.  Maybe the Hockey Hall of Fame or ESPN or possibly even Playboy produced such a list.  I think it would be an interesting topic.  Certainly, Steve Shutt would be considered, but he played one less year in the decade.  I can't really see too many other people giving Martin a run such a title. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TonyTheTiger (talk • contribs) 04:53, 29 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Well my problem is in that I have a hard time distinguishing who is a right winger and who is a left winger usually off the top of my head, so even though there were 3 or 3 more prolific wingers, they might have all been from the right side... hr.ca  <i style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">.com</i> 00:23, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Creating a 'All Decades Teams' article, is tricky. It could be a battleground for PoV disputes. GoodDay 23:05, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh creating one is outta the question, but that isn't what we were referring to. We were more trying to figure out if there has been one done before. If we created one it would be a direct violation of Wikipedia's "no original research" policy. Croat Canuck  <i style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">talk</i> 01:11, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * In my mind Shutt is the only one who can contest Martin for LW of the 70s based on Martin's four consecutive NHL All-Star Teams and 7 consecutive All-Star games. Some of the better challengers from that era split their elite years across decades. --TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 01:53, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Stat source for goaltenders?
I've been working on updating the List of Buffalo Sabres players in the style of List of Colorado Avalanche players. I still have a lot of work to do: User:Skudrafan1/List of Buffalo Sabres players. Is there a website from which I could easily glean the GAA and save percentage each goaltender had with the Sabres? Those which I have determined were calculated by hand. The sources I've been using (hockeydb.com and hockeygoalies.org) only have partial statistics for some goalies, which has therefore not allowed me to calculate those goalies' GAAs and save percentages. Any help would be appreciated. Skudrafan1 01:46, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * To start with, SV% was not calculated before 1984 in the NHL, so all the goalies before that won't have it included. As for the rest, you will probably have to continue on by hand. Kaiser matias 03:38, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Kaiser; I didn't know that fact about the save percentage. Skudrafan1 04:37, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Assistance on an article
Just got an idea. I'm currently working on improving an article and was just about to ask if anyone was interested in helping me. First I thought of asking directly on a users talk page but then I decided to bring it up here instead. When I finally decided to post here I got his idea; How about a 'Request help/assistance' page on this project. I don't think I've seen it anywhere else at wikipedia. It could be just a mini-collaboration or a full proportion collaboration between a number of users.

I got the idea when I looked at how some of our FA's got promoted. It started with one or more users who started improving an article. They then let everyone know and soon they had made major additions together and soon were on their way to peer reviews and FAC's. I'm not saying that the goal should be FA all the time but improvement. New users who are working on articles may want some help from more experienced users. Non native speakers of english may need some help with grammar and such. Maybe just letting other users know what you're working on and invite them to help. It could also work as a little project peer review for major additions to articles.

What do you all think? I could set up and example in my sandbox too better explain what I'm thinking of, but does it sound like a good idea? --Krm500 23:50, 30 July 2007 (UTC)


 * There's the article improvement drive page, but it's criminally underused. I think it fits the description. --Maxim 23:54, 30 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I know, but the Stanley Cup has been the current Article Improvement Drive collaboration since I joined Wikipedia. And I wasn't thinking about large scale collaborations, I meant more a of a page where users could request some assistance or tell everyone what they are working on, what needs to be done, and if they're interested they are welcome to help out. --Krm500 00:04, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Sounds good, I would be willing to help out on that article too, seeing as I am without anything to do now.  T Rex  | talk  00:25, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Here's an example of what a request could look like. At the head of the article we could have some links to pages to read on how to improve articles, links to MOS and so on. --Krm500 02:10, 31 July 2007 (UTC) Looks like a good idea. Would allow users to work in a more united front, rather than all just going out and doing our own independent projects. Kaiser matias 02:37, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Looks nice. I'd work on the Henrik Lundqvist article if you requested it. :-D That'd be good to allow people to work on what they want, rather than forcing an article as is in article improvement drive, which is dead...--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 09:41, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * What about replacing the "Article Improvement Drive" page with this. It's more usable, and it makes more sense? I can handle the administrative components of this idea (moves, deletion, and restoration, IMO, will happen). Maxim 18:14, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

That'd be great, in my opinion.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 18:24, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The only thing that is bugging me is that I'd rather ask Krm500 out of courtesy if anything else whether he wants a copy-paste solution or a history merge. Also, I cleared out all the junk that was on the page, and I've left a list of needy articles. Maxim 18:29, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Huh? What do you mean with copy-paste and history merge? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Krm500 (talk • contribs)
 * Copy-move is simple enough: a user copies something in the sandbox into the required page. A history merge is when PageX is deleted, PageY is moved to PageX, and what was PageX before the move is restored, therefore the histories of two pages are embedded in one. Maxim 00:36, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That's kinda neat. GoodDay 00:39, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Sure copy-move sound ok, I created the page to illustrate what I meant so there isn't much of a history, maybe 1 or 2 edits. Sorry for forgetting to sign my previous post. --Krm500 00:43, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * ✅. It is co-located with "Articles in dire need of improvement" at WikiProject Ice Hockey/Article Improvement Drive. I'm the first volunteer (I think). I counted you as well in it. I'll change the nav template to reflect the changes. Maxim 01:02, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Ray Emery
I'm just draw here a bit of attention to the article. I've gone and improved to GA-status, and it now on peer review which can be found here. I had an outside user look at it, and the GA reviewer, but I think the article can use reviews for the project itself. Cheers! --Maxim 12:50, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I just had a quick look on it, added something, but haven't read it entirely. But fix this: references should be after the punctuation marks, with no space in between. So, the correct is this: . or this, , not . or . --Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 17:44, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Correct, Refs should always be directly after punctuation.  T Rex  | talk  18:14, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * ✅, but I didn't look at the stuff in tables and infoboxes. Are there rules that apply to them as well, or the ref is simply directly next to the text in the box? Maxim 18:26, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Eyes open ...
We've had a few recent contributions from NoticeThePuck that have attracted my attention. Except for a handful of contributions, this user's entire output's been in the last week, and wholly focused on pushing the International Hockey Hall of Fame, complete with making revisionist edits to the Hockey Hall of Fame article that put me in mind of the late, lamented User:JohnnyCanuck. Since Johnny (in his real guise of User:VaughanWatch) was a proven puppet master and is under ArbCom indefinite block, keeping an eye on the edits until we know whether this is another sockpuppet or mere coincidence might be a good thing.  RGTraynor  13:29, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * What about a checkuser? I feel there's sufficient cause and evidence for that notably under Code B. Maxim 14:01, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I think this edit is pretty telling. <b style="color:#FF4500;">bmitchelf</b>•T•<b style="color:#FF0000;">F</b> 17:00, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I've blocked user, as I felt it was quite obvious. Maxim 18:33, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Heh, not being an admin myself, I can't checkuser, but it did seem fishy.   RGTraynor  19:14, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You have to be a checkuser to checkuser, but when it was blatantly obvious, so it didn't require that step. Maxim 19:22, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

And with some of the same edits, I commend to your attention another probable sockpuppet, User:69.156.150.62.  RGTraynor  12:57, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, VaughanWatch is back. I have semi-protected his three latest targets: Hockey Hall of Fame, List of halls and walks of fame, & International Hockey Hall of Fame.  -- JamesTeterenko 17:44, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This Vaughan character, needs a Gordie Howe elbow, Scott Stevens hit and a combination of Claude Lemieux/Sean Avery/Dale Hunter cheap shots, rolled into one. Oh, throw in a Billy Smith blocker 'love tap', aswell. GoodDay 18:00, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Buffalo Sabres draft picks featured list candidacy
I have nominated Buffalo Sabres draft picks as a featured list. I am not sure of exactly how the process works. Please check it out and offer suggestions for how to upgrade it to help assure its status as an FL.

(List of Buffalo Sabres players will be next.) Skudrafan1 16:48, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Hart Memorial Trophy
The page for the Hart Trophy is now an FLC, so if anyone would like to take a look and comment here, it would be much appreciated. -- Scorpion0422 01:05, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

A little newsletter?
I've been thinking about this, and I feel a little newsletter is order to update all active and semi-active members about the goings on here, because there have been major changes. Some point that I think should be included:


 * Latest guidelines on diatrics (I don't really look into to that, but there's been some discussion)
 * NJD and Sweden task forces
 * Requested images
 * Revamped Article Improvement
 * Numerous GA's and FA's

I know a bot operator who will probably be more than happy to fill the request. Is this a good idea or not? Maxim 01:25, 1 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Sure, why not? I'd read it. Croat Canuck  <i style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">talk</i> 02:33, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a great idea. Skudrafan1 02:46, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The page is located at WikiProject Ice Hockey/Newsletter, but I haven't started. Please feel free to contribute to it. Maxim 14:13, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I've got the layout more or less done, and if I some victims volunteers will help, it will be a matter writing the clips, changing the transclusions, and hooking up the bot. I can't do everything myself, after all. Maxim 19:45, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Just tell me what you have in mind and I'll be glad to help you. Sounds like a good idea.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 23:06, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Above here are some of the suggestions. If you look at the newsletter there are a few sample heading with which you can work. Just follow the redlink and type up something there, please. Thanks!! Maxim 00:14, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The Newsletter probably should have been created a seperate page for each month instead of one main page with subpages. This way when next months issue comes out the old issue would be on its own page, or we could always just move this one to a page like WP:HOCKEY/Newsletter/August 2007.  T Rex  |  talk  01:59, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Do you think it will be a regular one, or basically this single issue to let members catch up? Do you want a regular newsletter, because the projects that do are quite big (ex. Biography, LGBT, Puerto Rico)? --Maxim 02:25, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe we could do one every 3 months or so?  T Rex  | talk  02:35, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Or maybe when there are enough news? 3 months sounds reasonable. BTW, I've sort of completed it. Maxim 15:34, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Layout to the page looks really good. Suprised to find myself as the subject of one of the articles. Good work setting up the page, it brings everything done in the last few weeks/months/years into a short summarized page. Kaiser matias 17:54, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm surprised you are. That backlog was the biggest job that needed to be done, it was why a lot of people signed up, but you did it more or less single-handedly. BTW, the design is from Portal:Ice hockey, which I maintain a bit nowadays. Maxim 17:58, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Team season article change
Borrowing from the season articles the baseball project are doing, I changed the game logs on 1988-89 Calgary Flames season to show the monthly headers by default only. Is this a good change, or is it better just to display the entire log by default? Resolute 03:13, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it's a superb idea. The pages look a lot less cluttered this way.  My only beef with that page is the bright red is an eye sore - probably due to the fact that is "Flames" red.  Thricecube 06:43, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Indeed. We might have to come up with some neutral colours. Resolute 13:23, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Looks really nice. Already adopted it here and here. Good job.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 14:15, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yep, fantastic. GoodDay 20:30, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Man, I gotta say Serte, the Avs colours are even more obnoxious than the Flames are. Perhaps we should look at coming up with a uniform color scheme for all of the articles that get changed to this style. Resolute 00:17, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I just used the teams colors. We could decide on neutral colors so we people don't have their eyeballs coming out.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 00:26, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps blue and grey? Both of which we commonly use on many ice hockey articles. The blue (#CFECEC) and gray (#F0F0F0, though #E0E0E0 is darker and more visible to some people). We use those colors on many articles in a neutral way, it seems they would be fitting for these too, anyone else agree?  Bsroiaadn Talk 05:41, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Two Artem Anisimov's
Interesting situation I just encountered with these 2 Russian players of the same name, currently the younger, NHL prospect is the only one with an article on any wikipedia, the other is a career RSL'er, so there's no disambiguation needed at the moment, but would a distinguishing template such as this still be a wise precaution? IrisKawling 20:20, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Since they are both active players in the Russian league, I would create the disambiguating link and create a stub article for the other. -- JamesTeterenko 20:27, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed, that would be the correct move. GoodDay 21:46, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Newsletter
Well, how did it go? Did you like it? I'd love some feedback about it. --Maxim 20:45, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Absolutely, positively and fanstactically great. Congratulations 'Maxim'. GoodDay 20:51, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yea, great idea, I dig it. IrisKawling 21:14, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Nice designed and fun read! --Krm500 22:09, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Great job! I love it! Skudrafan1 22:55, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it was well done. I haven't really followed much of the goings on for the last few months, so I found it interesting.  I especially like hearing about the new requested images page, since I'll help fill those requests.  -- JamesTeterenko 22:42, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * A little error I'd like to point out, the table on your messages isn't ending, so anytime someone new comes to talk to us, the newsletter will always be on the bottom. Add a |} and it'll fix that problem right away. Croat Canuck  <i style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">talk</i> 22:46, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, the bot's note is, but there is no . Messages coming after the newsletter will all be in small font. Skudrafan1 22:55, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Like the newsletter, but you have something in there somewhere that is hiding the table of contents on me. If I had any idea where the templates are being stored, I'd look for a way to solve that.  Resolute 00:16, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yea, that's pretty much what I came to say, but it's also eliminated all the "edit" things for the different sections. Good job, though, when I first saw it I was like "......what the..WP:HOCKEY has a newsletter?", I like it.  Bsroiaadn Talk 00:38, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for positive comments :D The |} issue was fixed by Animum after he noticed; apparently I deleted it by accident while rearranging the layot, and the issue is Animum's fault. Resolute's problem might be fixed by removing the "edit" link and the portal, but I've yet to find a fool-proof solution. Maxim 00:43, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Looks very nice and could be useful to get some more people back here. Great job, thanks! Sorry for not helping out on time.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 00:49, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The sectionedit and tableofcontents is not resolved. I'm sort of stumpted. This is a portal format, maybe it's not designed for transclusion... Maxim 01:24, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe you should just code it so that there doesn't have to be templates inside it? I looked over it quickly, and that's how it seems...like there's templates inside the box..I could be wrong, though...but maybe you should just make it so instead of separate templates, it's all just in one (perhaps big) block of code for the bot to put in? I'm not sure how long that would take, or if it'd even work, though.  Bsroiaadn Talk 01:41, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I love the format and the look, so do everyone commenting, but it's messing up the pages. I've tried everything I know, but my best advice is to archive the newsletter to a special page (User talk:Maxim/newsletter, in my case), and try to find a solution afterwards. My best attempt is to modify Portal:Box-header, the template in Portalspace that gives the "box" look, but I'm not that, that, that... that skilled to do that. Maybe a second set of eyes will work... this is a wiki, and none of the pages are fully-protected. Maxim 01:47, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If you tried to blank each subpage individually then rv, you could see what the problem is and what page its on.  T Rex  | talk  02:15, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Hey guys, I found another problem with the newsletter, in case you try to add more talk headers underneath. The formatting of the outline/background is not closed with a |}, so the next header will show up inside the pink box. This doesn't solve the header edit tab problem, since they are still invisible on my talk page. <b style="color:#FF4500;">bmitchelf</b>•T•<b style="color:#FF0000;">F</b> 21:48, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Look at my 'talk page', my solution worked. GoodDay 21:53, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Questions regarding 2007-08 NHL transactions, section "Free Agency"
The following questions deal with the appereance of the Free Agent section and are, in some way, connected with each other.

1. An unknown user (IP 70.55.75.182) changed the existing free agent list, which was basically a collection of the significant transactions on, to a version based on on August 1st. ESPN's list contains some minor signings that www.nhl.com has not listed, although the deal has been confirmed in several other sources. On the other hand, signings listed on www.nhl.com can be considered 'bullet-proof'. So, which main source should be used? My personal preference would be ESPN, since it provides more information.

2. As time goes by, the Free Agent list expands by nature. Thus, it is getting more and more unreadable and hard to overlook. Would it be useful to divide the signings by month? This proposal includes a possible separate table for signings made during the first seven days of the FA period.

I would apply changes according to the respective majority. RedWingedUndead 22:29, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say, were those 2 links supposed to be the same?  T Rex  | talk  00:19, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * No, they are not. [2] refers the ESPN page, [3] links to the FA signed list at www.nhl.com. I guess I'm just too stupid to generate correct link descriptions... RedWingedUndead 00:29, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I guess it doesn't really matter since the references section includes both ESPN and the NHL sites along with TSN (Canada's ESPN) and some others.  T Rex  | talk  03:18, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Follow-up
Just a follow-up on an earlier discussion, I finally got the List of ice hockey players who died young up and running, and its pretty thorough in its listing, I'd be shocked if I missed any NHLers or Hall of Famers... but the European side of it is a little lacking, I only found about 5-10 unfortunate cases from across the pond, so any help on that would be appreciated, as well as help on general formatting issues and other information that I was unable to find (cause of death, specific dates, age, etc.)... someday in the future I'd like to get this to featured list status. Croat Canuck <i style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">talk</i> 04:41, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Looks good to me. I wondered why it was by age instead of in chronological order (with all ages together, I mean), but figured you decided to make it that way since List of famous people who died young separated it by age as well. Either way, good job. Although I would suggest adding more references (even if it's in the same book, you should probably add them to make sure people won't tag it as being mostly unreferenced). I would help, but I probably won't be editing much until September/October, I've been pretty busy lately. Only other suggestion I can think of is adding some more to some of the notes, for example the Don Deacon if he was drunk (his article says "Christmas party" so it seems likely), how the on-ice incident that Bill Masterton was a check resulting in a head injury, and if the person who murdered Brian Spencer was ever caught...stuff like that. Though that may make the article very large...perhaps add that sort of information (if you can/have it) to their articles instead and put a note at the beginning that for more details they could go to the persons' article? I wish I could have worded this better, sorry. Again, I wish I could help, but I won't have much free time for the next month or two. Maybe enough to check up on stuff quickly, but not enough to really make any major contributions.  Bsroiaadn Talk 05:56, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The list should probably be moved to List of ice hockey players who died under age 45 seeing as "young" is subjective and could result in the list being seen as listcruft and deleted.  T Rex  | talk  06:46, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Good job. Just wondering if there is a policy reason for the absence of flags in the Lofpwdy to illustrate the person's nationality. Perhaps that is considered being too colourful for the subject, or the article size too big? If not, I would consider adding  s to the names as in Current Roster of a team. --Bamsefar75 13:39, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Sure go for it, its a good non-space consuming way of pronouncing their nationality. And as for your other concerns I'll try and address those as best as I can... the reason I picked the 45 limit, in case your wondering, is because I thought going with under 40 was too low (Terry Sawchuk and Tim Horton died before retiring after 40) and 50 was a little too high so I picked 45... Tim Horton was 44 when he died and he's the oldest NHL to die during his career so it seemed like a good place to go. And thanks for your compliments as well, they are much appreciated. Croat Canuck  <i style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">talk</i> 22:19, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * ✅. Hope I got everone right (four of them lacked nationality info both on wikipedia and hockeydb). I used the current flag at the date of death. This means that some of the players retired before their flag was in use, but died while it was. They never played for those colours, so to speak. --Bamsefar75 14:23, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The Age column is redundant in the Aged 25 trough Aged 44 sections. Could perhaps be removed, and the Player column might span the Age + Player columns in the first and last sections. --Bamsefar75 14:42, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes I thought that myself, I like your idea bout the player column spanning it all from 25-44, be my guest, I'm not sure if I could get all the coding proper. Croat Canuck  <i style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">talk</i> 03:11, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I fixed up the British flags, replacing 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 and 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 with 🇬🇧. Scotland and England ceased to be independent of each other in 1707; if we were to show them, then we should be showing the Canadian provinces, the American states and the other countries 'divisions'. GoodDay 14:22, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Thats good. I was unsure and used the Scotland/England flags because snooker pages and soccer pages use England/Scotland/Wales/N.Ireland flags. IIHF pages however seems to use Great Britain. I guess this is a matter of sports associations, and not countries. Thanks for noticing. --Bamsefar75 15:53, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * In soccer, at least, E/S/W/NI maintain independent "national" federations and leagues, and compete as independent entities in the World Cup; in those cases the separate flags are appropriate.   RGTraynor  16:48, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The governing body for hockey in the Isle is Ice Hockey UK . FIFA is the exception in recognizing the constituent countries as separate entities. ccwaters 17:57, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I have another couple of players for you; Carl Fredrik Montan, death by drowning, played in the SEL and participated in two America's Cup. Gunnar Andersson, most famous for his soccer career but he also played hockey. And there was swedish player who was murdered during his career, if i remember correctly some skinheads beat him to death because he was homosexual. --Krm500 23:29, 8 August 2007 (UTC) Peter Karlsson (ice hockey) was the player I was talking about, stabbed to death. --Krm500 23:39, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay I added in Andersson and Karlsson in, but I don't have enough info and there is no article of Montan, sorry. But thanks for the tips Krm500. Croat Canuck  <i style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">talk</i> 01:41, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmm, Andersson's wiki-article says that he died 'as he was heading to Stade Vélodrome'. I assume that means he was in a car accident but I have two different sources that states that he died in misery. I assume that means alcohol related. Also, do you mind if I add some more text about Karlsson's murder since it's very famous since he was, according to sources, assassinated (murderers sentence was however manslaughter). --Krm500 13:26, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, there must be two Gunnar Anderssons, because the one that played in hockey (according to his hockeydb page) played in the 1976-77 season while the one mentioned above died in 1969. Ofcourse, hockeydb could just be wrong somehow on his page, but I searched "Gunnar Andersson hockey" and another place that came up was azhockey, which I don't know how reliable it is, that says that the only Gunnar Andersson that played in hockey, played after the soccer player died though the years don't match hockeydb's years.  Bsroiaadn Talk 16:06, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Nevermind, according to the list of ice hockey players who died young, the one mentioned played for a different club...not sure why I can't find anything on him playing for them...maybe I'm just not looking hard enough. Whatever reference was used, it should be used to add the fact that he played hockey at one point to his article.  Bsroiaadn Talk 16:14, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It is the correct Andersson, he was a famous soccer player and while playing soccer for IFK Göteborg he also played hockey for Frölunda HC, both team from Gothenburg. It was common back then to play soccer, hockey, bandy, etc at the same time. --Krm500 20:36, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Need help!
Hi folks, starting Sunday, I will be going away for a week. This is a problem because I recently started an FLC for the Hart Memorial Trophy and somebody needs to watch it and fulfill concerns. It is close and I don't think anything major needs to be done, I just need somebody to watch the FLC and respond to any concerns that are brought up. Anyone who would be willing to watch it for me would instantly become my hero and it would be MUCH appreciated. Thanks, Scorpion0422 04:46, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Vandal (?) problem?
Some of you may be familiar with this Corey Bryant character from way back, but he keeps adding paragraphs and paragraphs of information to the 1972-73 NHL season and 1973-74 NHL season which wouldn't be a problem except that its uncited, unlinked, really unverifiable in general, and I have the suspicion that its all a copy-paste copyvio. Should this kinda stuff be allowed or am I right in constantly reverting it? Croat Canuck <i style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">talk</i> 18:58, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think you're right. We know he's done copyvio in the past, and we know he goes in for this trivia spamming.  We also know he's pretty immune to any calls for reason or consensus.  Given my druthers, I'd see whether a short term block got his attention.    RGTraynor  19:53, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes he's been doing this since at least October of last year. It is probably best to report him at WP:AIV.  T Rex  | talk  19:58, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well I could do it myself as I'm an administrator, so there really is no need... I'll give him one last warning now. Croat Canuck  <i style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">talk</i> 20:04, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The only problem is that this is not like he hasnt been warned at all. Hes been warned for 10 months and continues, give him one last warning and then maybe a month block or so.  T Rex  | talk  22:20, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 10 months? this calls for a 'permanent ban'. GoodDay 22:22, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Ooh, he's showing his talons now! From Talk:1966-67 NHL season with a nice schpiel "Croat Canuck is a jerk. He doesn't know vandalism from true information. As long as I get accused falsely of everything from "POV" to vandalism, that's proof that all this shithead gang of jerks are only trying to attack my contributions, not to create a useful site." and then adding to the visitor's section of my user page by saying"You don't know vandalism from real information you jerk!"... I have no plans of deleting that last comment by the way. Croat Canuck  <i style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">talk</i> 20:35, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I feel kind of left out. He's never called me any names, even after the Talk:Eddie Giacomin and Talk:1966-67 NHL season.  Unless of course, I'm one of the "shithead gang of jerks" from his most recent edit at the 66-67 talk page.  Then I wear that badge of honor with pride!  Seriously though, he needs to go.  I was kind of hoping that he had left hockey alone forever.  Patken4 00:38, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think Teterenko did block him actually, so we'll see if we hear more hissy fits from this tightly-wound bundle of joy in the future. Croat Canuck  <i style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">talk</i> 00:40, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * We can but hope. The less we see of people like him, the less work for the rest of us.    RGTraynor  12:57, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I didn't actually block him. I just gave a stern warning about personal attacks.  I wouldn't hesitate blocking him if he does continue.  I would rather stay out of this dispute, since the VaughanWatch sockpuppets are annoying enough.  -- JamesTeterenko 17:16, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Ban the disrupter & burn his socks. GoodDay 18:55, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * His contributions don't seem to be copyvio, just WP:OR, I told him to read that.  T Rex  | talk  19:16, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Sometimes he does cite his sources but not very thoroughly. He explained himself here. I believe we should not bite him.  T Rex  | talk  20:29, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * He's explained himself at length and at many places, but he doesn't often address the actual situation. When he was massively copyvio'ing Charles Coleman and Brian McFarlane, he hotly denied doing anything of the sort until page-by-page quotes were proffered.  The most common complaints he handily ducked in that link.  First off, the great majority of his edits involve trivia.  In the late 1960s, for instance, the NHL season consisted of over four hundred games, yet Bryant would toss in recaps of a couple dozen games, "notable" for Suchandsuch player scoring his 20th goal, or getting into a fight, or sustaining an injury, or getting yelled at by the fans for a poor performance ... the events which happen in most games (but which would be included by Coleman in his multipage writeup of individual seasons, and copied by McFarlane and other writers).  The unanimous consensus above and beyond the copyvios was, and has been, that these edits violated WP:NOT and were not encyclopedic.  Invariably -- the second issue here -- Bryant would respond with angry invective, personal attacks and demands to leave his edits alone, in violation of WP:OWN and ignoring consensus, when he could be persuaded to discuss the issue at all.  This is not a new user; he has been active on Wikipedia for over a year and has nearly 1000 edits.  It is time, and long past time, that he learned how to play with others, and to be brutally honest, we are far better off without someone with a persecution complex who characterizes his fellow editors as a "shithead gang of jerks."     RGTraynor  12:46, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Traynor that is why you are the man, I couldn't have said it any better myself... we're not choosing to gang up and pick on him, he's been doing it to himself for months. That plagiarism issue is a very serious one, and he's been a red flag from the start. I admire your fortitude for sticking up for people Dinosaur, but this isn't a case of a bunch of people ganging up on some poor unenlightened user. Nobody just up and up adds that much information on something, in that kind of stylized writing about random unknown facts (especially an unknown user) without some sort of red flag going up... and we've seen this guy come by long enough to know that he is trouble. Croat Canuck  <i style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">talk</i> 19:18, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Exactly. A turn of phrase I used in a recent RfC is one of which I'm proud, and it fits here: "The concept of consensus includes that sometimes you are going to be on the losing side of debate, and that when you are, you need to accept the fact graciously and move on."  Bryant's shown no willingness to do so, and this editor at least has no more willingness to put up with him.    RGTraynor  06:01, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Coloured Hockey League
Could someone else have a look at the external links at the Coloured Hockey League article. I think User:Skeena went a bit overboard with the links. Flibirigit 05:39, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * A really good article could probably be written with those links.  T Rex  | talk  06:20, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I dumped a pile that are not relevant to the article. Probably more still need to go.  Diff is here, in case anyone wants to build an article on black players in hockey from the links I removed. Resolute 03:56, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

User:NHLsource
Is for real or not?, If so we should probably tell him/them about our policies regarding neutrality, etc.  T Rex  |  talk  18:45, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Just did.   RGTraynor  18:48, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well this will be fun to observe. Resolute 19:14, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah. Odds that this is legit are somewhere between "Guy Lafleur makes second comeback with Atlanta Thrashers" and "Georges Laracque is newest member of the 50-goal club," but assume good faith and all.    RGTraynor  19:44, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes we shall definitely see about this, it would be sorta cool though if it isn't a hoax. Croat Canuck  <i style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">talk</i> 19:51, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, I'm not so sure. A league flack would, as we've seen elsewhere on Wikipedia, want to impose the league's POV on everything.    RGTraynor  20:05, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I've given him a request for information and some WP:COI advice. I didn't get a personal welcome from him/her. Sniff! I guess only the most-active project contributors get the special greeting....:) Canuckle 20:10, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Indeed, well at the very least it'll make things more interesting around here... as if this WikiProject doesn't have enough clashing egos already to deal with. Croat Canuck  <i style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">talk</i> 20:31, 9 August 2007 (UTC)


 * He left a message on my talk page, offering advice and assistance as an employee of the NHL. Wonder if he'll provide evidence of that... Gmatsuda 20:57, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * OK 'Gary Bettman' we know it's you, take off that shield. Oh wait, Bettman giving hockey advice? The very guy who was given a puck for his first Christmas as NHL commish & tried all week to figure out how to open it? GoodDay 22:05, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Bettman Christmas puck incident is yet to be created. You better find some good sources though because I think he's Jewish :-) JRWalko 22:15, 9 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Thankfully, I already have access to official information from the league, since I'm a freelance writer covering the Kings, so I don't need to worry about NHLsource's credibility. :-) Gmatsuda 22:22, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Help on images
I've been uploading Flickr images to Commons so we can use them here. I need help to:
 * identify these players:
 * If anyone knows how to edit images, I'd like to see this picture Image:Jay McClement Dennis Wideman Manny Legacé St.LouisBlues.jpg cut, so we could only see McClement, the player on the left.

Thanks--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 10:46, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Link 5 is Darcy Hordichuk, link 6 I'm not sure, link 7 is Tomáš Vokoun, link 8 is Brian Finley not 100% sure though.  T Rex  | talk  10:52, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh BTW how much of McClement do you want in the pick, head shot? upper body? full body?  T Rex  | talk  11:04, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think full body would be ok: for example, a cut between McClement's hand and Legacé's blocker glove. Thanks for the help.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 12:47, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * ✅  T Rex  | talk  21:20, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I believe link 6 the one on the right is Milan Michalek. Croat Canuck  <i style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">talk</i> 14:15, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Image:05 NHL Shield.png
Hello everyone,

Image:05 NHL Shield.png has come up for deletion since it has no source. A year and a half ago, I created the logo from from the existing gif file Image:05 NHL Shield.gif which has since been deleted. I went looking for the image online (same sized image) and could not find one. The ones on the NHL website are lower quality versions that also have some non-uniform background colours? What do other suggest we do? Regards, -- Jeff3000 23:32, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * A simple Yahoo image search brings up this.  T Rex  |  talk  00:06, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Ice Bowl
I'm tempted to AFD Ice Bowl. Its a speculatory name for an unannounced event. Any opinions? Its also being added at Buffalo Sabres... ccwaters 16:07, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Looks like Skudrafan already answered your question by bringing the article back into the proper context. Croat Canuck  <i style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">talk</i> 19:12, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, guess I was on the ball and didn't even know it. Sure hope it does happpen, though. :) Skudrafan1 21:25, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * By the by, I just posted a note on Sabres2137's talk page explaining why his edits were reverted. Feel free to check it out and back me up if need be, and/or correct me if I've mis-stated anything. Skudrafan1 21:38, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yep, I agreed with you AND corrected you :) Croat Canuck  <i style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">talk</i> 21:46, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if I'd call that a correction, but thanks. :) Skudrafan1 21:52, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well we'll agree to disagree then, and no problem... I thought at the very least, the Leaf angle would bring you more credibility. Croat Canuck  <i style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">talk</i> 22:25, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Taxi squad
Now that we've cleared up the Ice Bowl situtation, what should I think about Taxi squad? Right now, I just think it's a poorly written, unsourced, all-around strange piece of work. I mean, when I think "taxi squad," I think something akin to the "practice squad" on an NFL roster, not the seventh defenceman on an NHL team. The article seems to contradict itself in places (is the taxi squad players who aren't part of the real roster, or is it seventh defencemen like Christoph Schubert?), and it randomly mentions little-league baseball near the end. Is it in need of an AFD, or just a complete rewrite/expansion to include other sports? Skudrafan1 03:07, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it should be tagged with prod. -- JamesTeterenko 03:49, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Works for me. Thanks, JT. Skudrafan1 03:56, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

New template notice
After noticing many broken or outdated links to TSN profiles, I've created Template:TSN-NHL-profile and also inserted it into about 30 articles.

There is an alternative feature to possibly incorporate into this template in the future, instead of "id=" there is a "name=" method example of lookup which can be very useful. However I am not too saavy with the proper code to have two separate optional fields in the url at this time. IrisKawling 06:53, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Canadian Development Model
For junior hockey fanatics, please review Canadian Development Model and make any changes, and references you can find. This new article is related to the exceptional player status of John Tavares (ice hockey). Flibirigit 15:49, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Resolute up for adminship
Just thought I would let you all know that Resolute, an active member of this WikiProject is up for adminship Requests for adminship/Resolute. Feel free to comment on his adminship capabilities. Croat Canuck <i style="font-size:x-small;"> Say hello   or just talk </i> 21:54, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I wanted to wait for the closure of this RfA before commenting, but thanks to everyone for their support. I appreciate knowing what everyone thinks highly enough of my contributions to trust me to be an admin.  Resolute 22:03, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Screenshots
I noticed that ST47 deleted our screenshots for Wayne Gretzky and New Jersey Devils so we have red links there now. I can't really understand why, and I wanted to alert everyone to see if they could get restored. <b style="color:#FF4500;">bmitchelf</b>•T•<b style="color:#FF0000;">F</b> 19:46, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Check out my talk page, that bot has left me a bunch of orphan notices even though the image wasn't orphan. --Krm500 20:55, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * They were considered orphaned, because FU images cannot be used outside of the mainspace. Project space does not qualify.  I don't remember what the licencing tag was exactly, but iirc, one of the issues that made it a FU image was the inclusion of the Firefox browser logos, etc in the screenshot.  You might want to bring this up at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Fair use and find out that if that was cropped out, thus leaving only a shot of the Wikipedia page itself, if that would be adequate to retain the screenshots in the project space.  I'm not sure that it would though, as Wikipedia itself is copyright, however a user at that page who knows more about copyright, and Wikipedia's policies could help find a solution that allows you to retain these images for posterity. Resolute 21:23, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

An NHL Trophies Featured Topic?
I've been mulling this over for a while, and I think we should all group together and try and improve the individual trophy pages so that we can have a WP:HOCKEY Featured Topic. I have already finished the Hart Trophy, and the Norris is an FLC right now. It isn't that hard - it took me about a day to get the Norris page ready - basically, each page just needs to have a properly formated table and a small sourced history section and then its ready.

There aren't as many as you think: Hart, Lady Byng, Vezina, Calder, Art Ross, Norris, Conn Smyth, Lester Patrick, Masterton, Pearson, Adams, Selke, Jennings, Clancy, Richard, President's, Prince of Wales and Campbell Trophies. That's 18, and 2 are already done. If you include the Stanley Cup, that's 19, but it's already a GA and thus wouldn't be a concern.

We can get away with not doing the silly ones like Roger Crozier Saving Grace Award, NHL/Sheraton Road Performer Award, Mark Messier Leadership Award and NHL Plus/Minus Award because they are officially called Awards, not Trophies and they are not listed as a part of NHL.com's Trophy case.

So, is anyone interested?-- Scorpion0422 19:44, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Sure! I've already made minor edits to the Norris Trophy article. <b style="color:#FF4500;">bmitchelf</b>•T•<b style="color:#FF0000;">F</b> 20:14, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Sounds good. I might have the time next week to pick up one or two of these articles for improvement. Resolute 20:29, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If 4 or 5 people are interested, we could have all of the articles to FL status by the beginning of the 07-08 season. I'm going to be working on the Vezina article next. Pages like the Richard Trophy could be a problem because they list the people who led in goal scoring before the Trophy was first awarded. -- Scorpion0422 20:41, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think the Richard trophy will be a problem. It clearly marks that there was no award at that point, and it is logical to assume that someone looking for a list of NHL goal scoring leaders would look to the article for the award that currently represents it. Resolute 21:06, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh yes I will be in on this one... I'm itching to dip my hand into the featured section of Wikipedia for the first time, this will give me a chance to see what it takes firsthand.... I call dibs on the Calder! I'll get started on it if not tomorrow, then whenever the weekend ends. Croat Canuck  <i style="font-size:x-small;"> Say hello   or just talk </i> 23:34, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I need some opinions, I turned the Vezina page into a table, but in several years there were ties, but I was unsure of what to do. For the time being, I've simply given each winner their own row, but I think it needs to indicate the years that were ties. However, having two columns feature one year messes up the sortability option. Any ideas? -- Scorpion0422 23:53, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well until the year after that three-way tie in 1980-81 it was changed into the current criteria for the award, whereas before it was more of a team trophy like the Jennings. I mean Bunny Laraque won four Vezinas but very few will call him one of the greatest goalies of all-time (greatest back-up goalie, perhaps). So perhaps the best thing to do is put a second column section to the first table (the goalie with more games played/minutes played is mentioned first, back-up goalie mentioned second), so that then two goalies can be mentioned for every year, but at least goalies like Bunny Laraque are shown to be in the co-winners circle four times as opposed to the winners... still don't know what to do about that 1980-81 season, that makes it really tricky. Croat Canuck  <i style="font-size:x-small;"> Say hello   or just talk </i> 00:00, 17 August 2007 (UTC)`
 * Perhaps it could be changed to | 1978-79

so that it would be sorted by Ken Dryden and would all be in one column. It will be trickier because in some years, there are some big names that share the award, like Bower & Sawchuk in 64/65 and Hall & Plante in 68/69. --  T Rex  | talk  00:10, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Ken Dryden Michel Larocque
 * Montreal Canadiens
 * 5 3


 * About the sortable options, should this be avoided? In some browsers it automatically shuts the browser down without warning.  T Rex  | talk  00:10, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * As mentioned in the past I am against using sortable tables in most instances where it wouldn't really help the user. I would say this is one of those cases. --Djsasso 14:43, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Why? I think a sortability option is helpful in this case, because if somebody wanted to see all of the winners from a certain team, it would be easy enough. If anyone feels that strongly about it, they can remove the sortability option. -- Scorpion0422 14:46, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Personally I would just go to the team page if I wanted that sort of information. Being that I don't use sortable tables very often could you not just have that one collumn sorted? Or do you need to have every one sorted? --Djsasso 17:11, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes I think that would do the trick as well. Croat Canuck  <i style="font-size:x-small;"> Say hello   or just talk </i> 00:46, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

While we're at it: I think we should change the color of the active indicator, yellow is not that nice. This project often use a light blue, for example as background for the main project page meny and for the Hall of Fame indicator in the player infobox. Also look in some of the other featured list and you'll see that light blue is often used. And I'd also like to change the header for the table to a lighter grey, also used on the other featured lists. --Krm500 01:44, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I am doing Conn Smythe Memorial Trophy. I think we should let sortable tables be used, they don't take nothing away and it helps you if you want to see alphabetically, or teams, or positions or whatever. And if you don't feel you need to use them, you just don't use. And everybody is fine. That's what I think.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 15:12, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * By the way, why did someone put Conn Smythe Memorial Trophy at the beginning of the article if the trophy is never mentioned in that away: neither the NHL here and here or Legends of Hockey uses the word Memorial. I think I'm going to delete the word.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 15:16, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Crap, I was going to do the Conn Smythe next... Alright, I'll take the Pearson. -- Scorpion0422 15:32, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Newsletter NOTOC and NOEDITSECTION
You may want to have a look at Portal_talk:Box-header which mentions a way to fix this issue. --Sopoforic 00:51, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Possible Trivia Question
Saw an interesting question on a Ducks blog today. If Teemu Selanne retires this summer, as it's speculated he will, would he hold the record for most goals in a player's first and last seasons? That is, has anyone had more than 48 the year they retired? I know Mike Bossy was on a 48-goal pace (38 G, 63 GP) in '86-'87, but that's about as close as I can find. After all, don't most offensive stars only retire once they can't score anymore? Doogie2K (talk) 22:16, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Hm, interesting indeed. If Bobby Hull didn't return to the NHL from the WHA in 79-80, he had 50 goals in 71-72, that's the closest I can find. So at first glance Teemu does appear to hold this record, however there might be someone who died young that had an impressive short-lived career. IrisKawling 16:43, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * None that impressive.   RGTraynor  17:00, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Norris Trophy article - Defence vs. Defense
I guess the standard that every defenseman must be listed as Defence or Defenceman since the Norris supposedly uses the former on it's inscription (at this point I question whether it even has one) is no longer the case since the Norris Trophy article now uses defense, a spelling which is backed up by actual sources. This also brings up the question as to whether the article for blueliners, Defenceman (ice hockey), should in fact be located at Defenseman (ice hockey). --Sparkhurst 19:06, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Per WP:ENGVAR the dialect of English used when an article is created should be preserved unless there is significant reason to change. For this reason, I would oppose changing Defenceman (ice hockey).  There simply is no compelling reason to change.  I do not see an issue with the current Canadian spelling of defence in the Norris Trophy article either, but if the trophy itself uses the American spelling, and others wish to have that article consistent with the trophy, then that is fair too. Resolute 19:19, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with Resolute. I think the article for the trophy should have stayed with the Canadian spelling. You have to remember most websites for the NHL are designed by American web companies who just use their native tongue when typing out the articles which leaves the validity of sourcing spelling in question. I still believe the inscription spells it the Canadian way. Someone had a photo of it at one point but I can't remember where it was. Not to mention, arguably the game was invented in Canada (yes I know others claim it was invented else where) well before the NHL existed so one would assume the position was invented with the Canadian spelling. I personally think status quo should be kept especially since its likely to flair up into a bigger war than diacritics did. --Djsasso 21:56, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Everywhere I look that doesn't limit the explanation of the trophy to "top defenceman/defenseman", I find the following:

"(T)o the defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-around ability in the position."

Not once have I seen it substitute defense for defence. In fact, putting the quoted text into a Google search finds 142 results with defense, absolutely none with defence. Also, any effort to find anything regarding an inscription has proved futile, which is precisely why I question whether it even has one. If it does indeed have one, there is no reason to believe it would definitely use the Canadian spelling, as the individual it is named after was the owner of the Red Wings. --Sparkhurst 22:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Wasn't there a discussion on this topic before? Which was settled? GoodDay 23:07, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * There was, I'm not sure why its being brought up again. It's definitely one topic that will never be settled. Again my main point was the name of the position was around long before the NHL and the Norris trophy. The position itself was most likely spelled defenceman when the game was invented being that it was invented in Canada. I would like to see all references to it spelled defenceman but I know that will never happen so most of us have just accepted the way it is so that we can focus our effort on more important topics. --Djsasso 23:14, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

There have been discussions on this before. I remember searching through them in order to find verification that the Norris Trophy uses the Canadian spelling. All I found were assertions, however. --Sparkhurst 23:20, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Making things more complexed, is the fact Jim Norris (the trophy's namesake) is a Canadian-American. GoodDay 23:26, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

A fairly simple proposal that can be added to if the need arises:


 * 1) Defenseman (ice hockey) shall continue to re-direct to Defenceman (ice hockey) since the latter was created first.
 * 2) Center (ice hockey) shall continue to re-direct to Centre (ice hockey) since the latter was created first.
 * 3) American teams will use American spellings and Canadian teams will use Canadian spellings.
 * 4) American players who played only for American teams shall use American spellings and Canadian players who played only for Canadian teams shall use Canadian spellings.
 * 5) The spellings used for all others (clearly a super-majority of them) shall be determined by precedent (first relevant edit) and/or the team the player in question is most identifiable with. (Clarke = Center, Gretzky = Centre)

Regarding the Norris Trophy article, I think the quoted part ("to the defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position") should remain intact since that is the exact definition the Professional Hockey Writers' Association uses (not even TSN.ca or the Canadian Press bothers to change it ). Regarding the other uses for that particular article, the idea that the trophy has an inscription with the Canadian spelling on it is merely speculation at this point. If in the future it is proven that that is the case, I see no reason why the defense in the PHWA quote and defence can't co-exist. --Sparkhurst 09:04, 23 August 2007 (UTC)


 * For the most part this is how it always has been. What you are proposing is nothing new. However, usually most people just use the place of birth as the way to decide which spelling to use and leave out the what team did they play for jazz. But again wiki guideline overrules most of this anyways with the first major contributer guideline. --Djsasso 12:54, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Ice Hockey/Featured topic Drive
For those who are interested in helping get the Trophy pages to FT status, I have created a page here. I figured it would be easier to have a single page rather than post here everytime there is an update or something. -- Scorpion0422 23:57, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Excellent idea. I'll grab another of these trophy articles when I can.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 00:04, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, and what does this mean? If you do not own the DVDs, then add a note and somebody will help. DVD's?--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 00:06, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I copied the page format from another FT drive I'm working on and I thought I had adapted it to the present FT, but I guess I missed a couple spots. The short answer: It means nothing. -- Scorpion0422 00:19, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and according to the Manual of Style, we shouldn't really say, for example, Hart Memorial Trophy Winners in the name of the section, just winners, because the name of the article shouldn't be repeated on the title of a section. So, we should rename that section of all articles to remove the name of trophy of it.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 00:12, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Okily dokily. -- Scorpion0422 00:19, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Carolina Hurricane's Roster..
I need some help, so that I do not violate WP:3RR. Some editors have been changing the jersey number for Tim Gleason from #8 to #42, and assigning #8 to Matt Cullen on the Carolina Hurricanes page. All sources I can find list Tim Gleason as still having the #8 assigned to him and for Matt Cullen either NOT having a jersey number, or having #5 which I believe was his number with the Rangers. The Carolina Hurricane's official web site lists Gleason with #8 and Cullen without a jersey number. Since I cannot find any sources that show that Cullen is going to get back #8, and since the official team site backs up my assertion, I believe that these edits by the other editors are speculation and should not be included. If someone knows of a source which shows that indeed this jersey change has happened, please point me to the right direction. Thanks. Pparazorback 01:33, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The user has now cited a link to the Hurricanes official site. Seems that it is now confirmed. Resolute 03:23, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I see that, Now... All I asked for was a source earlier but now I am satisfied. Pparazorback 04:00, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Infobox for trophies and awards
I've created one, and it's located here. I've already used on Hart Memorial Trophy. --Maxim 14:14, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Featured Image?
This project has built up quite the showcase – Featured articles, article featured on the main page a while ago, featured lists and many candidates. But, so far we don't have any featured images. I was looking at the Vezina Trophy article and got the idea that maybe we should try getting a historic image up to featured status. Does anyone have a suggestion of a good quality image that would meet the criteria? I was thinking that if we can get a better resolution of this image, it would be a good candidate since it depict a legendary player with a unique and historic piece of equipment. Can anyone get a better resolution version? --Krm500 00:03, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Great idea, here's some possibilities. The Bobby Orr photo, Gretzky & Messier with the cup, a better copy of the Richter save, or Toronto 1942 finals photo, I think this last one might be the most likely to be able to used on wikipedia. IrisKawling 13:10, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Remember to look at the featured picture criteria, also it might be kinda hard to find a good photo considering fair use images aren't allowed.  T Rex  | talk  13:42, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Exactly, the image must be 'free', I think the Toronto 1942 finals photo is the only acceptable one of the images you mentioned. But we must have really good scans of the images and all the information about the photo and it's license. --Krm500 15:44, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I have put the Jacques Plante image up for picture peer review. --Krm500 22:41, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Could someone get a better quality, higher resolution image? It is nice photo and I believe it could get featured if it was in better quality. --Krm500 00:12, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Manual of Style Discussion
I would like to call people to join in an imortant discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers). This project has a number of infoboxes where this discussion is applicable. Juan Miguel Fangio| ►Chat 02:47, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

PHPA
Somebody has just created Professional Hockey Players' Association, which is great (PHPA = AHL and ECHL players' union), but I fear there may be some CV or COI going on. ccwaters 18:04, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Aside from the "Mission statement" section which I tagged as pov, the article doesn't look that bad after some minor cleanup. IrisKawling 01:54, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Umm, how can a mission statement be a POV concern? By definition a mission statement is POV.  It's what an organization strives to achieve. Resolute 04:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Roster Templates
I've created this template  by coping the coding from the NFL roster tempaltes to use instead of the ones created last year. :

What is everyones opinion on this? Should I space it differently? Keep the old one but add the IR to it? Keep the new one but remove the IR? Keep the old ones as they are? blah blah blah.... Feedback would be appreciated. Thricecube 20:32, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I really like it. Really really. Much smaller and easier to understand, better looking. Great job!--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 20:52, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I like aswell. PS- don't forget to add & hide the diacritics. GoodDay 20:53, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not a big fan but it's not you, I really didn't like when they switched to the current design from this one.  T Rex  | talk  20:57, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Looks nice but I don't get where it should be used? Is a roster template really necessary? --Krm500 22:21, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * They're used on single team season articles.  T Rex  | talk  22:57, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I know, but there's also the stats table with all the players from that season. And if it is a current season the template is single use. --Krm500 23:48, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Much, much, much better. I fully support this. IrisKawling 00:16, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Cool, I'll create this template for each team tonight and tomorrow. Thricecube 03:08, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Just noticed you forgot to include the GM/Coach, that can easily be fit under centers. IrisKawling 16:51, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Atlantic Division - ✅ IrisKawling 19:12, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Central Division, Northwest Division - ✅ IrisKawling 22:26, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Saginaw Spirit alumni
I am curious what everyone thinks about articles like this. Now I agree with putting NHL alumni onto the main team page but this article seems to be trying to list every single person who has ever played on the team whether they made it big or not. Now while the team is fairly new that is probably not that hard but with the churn that Major Junior hockey has I think it would never be able to be maintained like the various NHL Team players lists are when you start to consider major junior players who played 1 game etc etc. I was thinking about putting it up for afd but I thought I would see what other peoples opinions are. This is the only team I could find that had such a page so I wanted to see before people started to try and do it for all the other teams. --Djsasso 16:23, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I think it's a neat idea, but it would be way too difficult to maintain. If/when pages such as this are created for teams which have been around for twenty-thirty years, they will be completely unmanageable (especially if players' current teams are expected to be updated as well).  A large percentage of players who play in the OHL/WHL/QMJHL never make the NHL, and therefore will be, as far as history is concerned, fairly non-notable.  I think listing NHL alumni, and other notable alumni, on the main team pages is more than adequate.  I would support an AfD for this page. Skudrafan1 16:43, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Is it any different than List of Calgary Flames players? There's 27 years worth of players there.  Of course, the problem with a junior team is the ridiculous turnover.  In 25 years, a junior team will have probably four times the players an NHL team would have.  I would probably prune it down to just players who made the NHL myself, which is an article I have been contemplating in relation to the Calgary Hitmen for some time now. Resolute 16:49, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah thats why I decided to ask on here because I could see it being a decent article if it was just NHL players. But with the turnover of junior hockey and their attempt to track all the current teams I just saw it as possibly a little too much to try and keep up with especially if it started to happen with the older teams. --Djsasso 16:52, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Firstly it should be renamed to List of Saginaw Spirit players or something like that.  T Rex  | talk  16:59, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, if pruned to players who made the NHL, I think it would be an appropriate page. Then the lists of NHL alumni on each of the team pages could simply be changed to things like  Skudrafan1 17:03, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * In my mind, I see three questions: 1. Should the page exist?  2.  If yes to #1, which players should be included?  3.  If yes to #1, what information should be included?  We have to be careful not to mix these up.  i.e. possibly deleting the page because it may be too difficult to maintain the current teams doesn't sound like the right approach to me.  I personally don't think that the column adds too much value, so I would just get rid of that.  I have no issue with the page existing.  It is easy to verify the list.  On the question of who should be included, I would say everyone.  It isn't too hard to add the 30 or so new players every year.  If we did pair it down, the inclusion criteria would be difficult to define.  If it was NHL only, you would be missing important players such as Ryan O'Marra for no good reason.  Not to mention the fact that this page would then be down to two players, making it a pretty useless list.  As for what information to include, I would remove the current team column.  It would be seriously out of place for teams that have any history.  You could replace it with other leagues the player has played in.  To me, that would be more meaningful and a lot easier to maintain.  As a side note, I agree with T Rex that the page should be renamed to List of Saginaw Spirit players.  -- JamesTeterenko 17:31, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd be inclined to AfD it. Handling this through a Category is more than sufficient, because the vast number of these players aren't and never will be notable enough for their own articles, whereas a cat can at least cite those players already deemed notable.    RGTraynor  18:50, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I would agree with that. That is actually the reason I noticed the page. I was meaning to pull up the category. --Djsasso 19:29, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * There are benefits to having a list that don't exist for categories. This includes:
 * You can add additional useful information such as: The years in which they played, position, stats with the team, nationality, etc.
 * Depending on the columns added, you can make the tables sortable and sort by whatever criteria interests the reader.
 * It would be feasible to make the lists complete, but we would never complete the categories.
 * You can include pictures of the players in the list, but not so cleanly in the category.
 * Players that don't warrant articles can still be in the list. If they do not become notable, just don't wikilink them.
 * The more I think about this, the more I believe that this article should stay. -- JamesTeterenko 19:45, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree the article should stay as well. I might prune it down to players that were drafted and/or played in the NHL though.  Incidentally, I would prefer an alternate rename to List of Saginaw Spirit alumni.  This would be consistent with the category structure in junior hockey: Category:Saginaw Spirit alumni, which was agreed upon last year because junior teams consider their grads to be alumni. Resolute 19:53, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Why would you exclude the current roster players that already have articles? Just counting the blue links on Saginaw Spirit, eight of them have articles.  -- JamesTeterenko 20:02, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That list of blue links probably need to be pruned. I think alot of these players with articles were part of the massive junior player create last year and would never meet the notability requirements, but I personally hate deleting player pages until its obvious they are never going to play pro. (If the article was already created. I prefer they never be created in the first place that is.) --Djsasso 20:09, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If they are drafted players, I would include them. If they are not, most of them probably should be prodded or AfD'ed.  Incidentally, I am working on a test, as an example of what an article can look like, that differentiates it from a category: User:Resolute/Sandbox. Resolute 20:21, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Excellently put, James. You've swayed my opinion on this article. Skudrafan1 04:25, 25 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I stumbled upon this a year ago and I could have sworn I AFDed it then...20:36, 24 August 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ccwaters (talk • contribs)
 * Not by this name, as there is no deletion history on it, but I do remember that. Resolute 20:41, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I just AFDed Tyler Haskins for failing WP:BIO for never playing professionally. There's a few more that I just prodded under the same justification (I just got lazy). Its all the same editor BTW. ccwaters 20:54, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree that all of those should be deleted except for Matt Corrente. He is a top prospect.  He is a first round draft pick and generally regarded as the top defenceman in the New Jersey system.  I'll remove the prod tag on that one and expand the article.  -- JamesTeterenko 00:39, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

National Hockey teams
There is a discussion at Talk:American men's national hockey team about moving national team pages and more opinions would be nice.  T Rex  | talk  17:07, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

2007 Super Series
Just a heads up, I've created this article. -- Earl Andrew - talk 21:02, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You might want to merge it with the one that already exists then at 2007 Canada-Russia Super Series --Djsasso 21:13, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for letting me know. I searched all over the place for an article, and couldn't find one, so I made one. Guess I didn't find the orphan article. -- Earl Andrew - talk 00:45, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

First-round draft pick templates
Stealing the format from, I have created a template showing all first-round draft picks made by the Buffalo Sabres:

What do you think? Is this something that should be created for every team, and displayed on the individual articles of these first-round draft picks? Or is this just a colossal waste of time and space? Skudrafan1 22:22, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
 * A colossal waste of time and space. Sorry.  Maxim (talk)  22:25, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for being blunt. Anyone else care to chime in? :) Skudrafan1 22:32, 25 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm ambivalent about it, but if it is a project you are considering doing, I would suggest not including the template on the team articles. There are already too many templates as it is on some of them, while there is already a "draft picks" link on the current team templates.  I guess the real question is whether being a first round pick of team x is a defining characteristic of that player? Resolute 22:38, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I didn't mean to imply I would include the templates on the team articles, but rather on the individual player articles. Skudrafan1 22:42, 25 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Personally I never see the need for templates unless its something really defining. I don't know if first round draft picks would fall under that or not. I wouldn't go against having them but I wouldn't clamour to have them either. --Djsasso 22:44, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This only took me about ten minutes to create, so it's not like I'm that attached to it. I just happened to notice someone had done something similar for the Buffalo Bills, and I copied it here.  Being a first-round draft pick is defining of a player's merit, I would say -- or, at least, of his once-determined potential.  That being said, a category does already exist at Category:National Hockey League first round draft picks.  This template would merely link a team's all-time first-round picks together. Skudrafan1 22:48, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh I agree its defining. I think more in a way that when you are on say Crosby's page are you going to want to see all the other #1's. Like you might when you are on say Ted Nolan's page would you want to have a template linking all the previous Islanders coaches. But yeah I would be fine with it being on the individual player pages, just not on team pages or any other pages that already have lots of templates. --Djsasso 22:57, 25 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, the job is done. Skudrafan1 04:22, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Help me out
This is the second time this user has put it for FLC removal. If you feel it should be delisted then of course say so but I don't see how a list that pass the criteria should be delisted. All comments are welcome. --Krm500 12:48, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Where is the first time?  Maxim (talk)  13:42, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Linked just under the header in the current nomination. --Krm500 14:12, 26 August 2007 (UTC)