Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ice Hockey/Archive85

Adding PWHL draft to the biography infobox template
Should we add it, or should we wait a few years for the PWHL to be more established? Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 21:31, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Waiting a bit is probably best. Flibirigit (talk) 23:37, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

HC Bat Yam
Could someone take a look at HC Bat Yam? The article has a lot of Russian (?) text and the sources aren't good. –   Poriman55    - Meddela mig! 21:27, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

List of NHL overtime game sevens
I just noticed this WP:CFORK article returned after being redirected to List of NHL game sevens for three years. Anyone mind if I resume the redirect? Conyo14 (talk) 22:09, 7 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Seems reasonable to me, plus a subsection of the ten longest game seven overtime games could be added to List of NHL game sevens similar to the most frequent matchups in the List of NHL playoff series. Deadman137 (talk) 22:32, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. Wracking  talk! 23:24, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

In that overtime article, it's easier to know what the home-vs-road split is in overtime game sevens. While the original game seven article also specifies which games went to overtime, it's harder to track how many overtime games were won at home vs road, and it would feel like a tangent to squeeze that into the original game seven article. Hence with the overtime article, it's easier to track that split. Strangewrite385 (talk) 03:13, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Proposal to remove Lester Patrick Trophy from the NHL season-by-season pages
Within the Awards section of each NHL season page (e.g. 2023–24 NHL season) we have been including the Lester Patrick Trophy. Personally, I don't think continuing to do something just because it is how we are currently doing it is always the best reason, and its inclusion I think is something to reconsider. The nature of the Patrick Trophy is "to honor a recipient's contribution to ice hockey in the United States" and the winners can come from a number of different peripheries of the hockey world, not the NHL. In fact, only a small portion of winners have been active NHL players (especially in more recent years), and it has no connection to the active NHL season. On our "List of National Hockey League awards" page, the Patrick Trophy is listed in the 'See also' section as follows: On the actual Lester Patrick Trophy page it reads as follows: And in recent media by the NHL about their own seasonal awards, it is not even mentioned (see: NHL to announce trophy winners beginning May 14) The NHL does not include it in it's annual list of awards, our own IceHockey Project does not include it as an NHL award elsewhere, and the actual definition of the award does not relate it to the NHL season. And as for one final argument, we exclude even more relevant trophies in the tables - a peripheral award like the E. J. McGuire Award of Excellence which is tied into NHL scouting on the season and related to the team that drafts said player, or other community awards like the Willie O’Ree Community Hero Award, which, similar to the Patrick trophy, rewards members of the community not necessarily related to the NHL, but is actually presented by the NHL and is included in the awards ceremony, or the old NHL Foundation Player Award which was given explicitly to active NHL players who contributed to their communities, and is only included in like one season Awards table. We don't even include all of the defunct actual regular season performance related trophies on their respective pages (e.g. Roger Crozier Saving Grace Award - 2000–01 NHL season; NHL/Sheraton Road Performer Award - 2003–04; Scotiabank/NHL Fan Fav Award - 2009–10 NHL season). All of this is to say, I propose we remove the Lester Patrick Trophy from the awards table due to lack of relevance and/or at least add all of the other peripheral trophies, too (I am willing to volunteer to do the work). –uncleben85 ( talk ) 15:22, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * "Lester Patrick Trophy - presented, in part by the NHL, for contributions to hockey in the United States, but not considered an NHL award"
 * "It is considered a non-NHL trophy because it may be awarded to players, coaches, officials, and other personnel outside the NHL."


 * Sure, sounds good. It is a non-NHL award, mostly kept intact by the HHOF. Conyo14 (talk) 16:45, 20 May 2024 (UTC)


 * If a person associated with the NHL receives the award, it could be listed in the see also section for that specific NHL season. Flibirigit (talk) 17:04, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Agreed.   Ravenswing     18:10, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Don't see any reason not to if it's not officially an NHL award. The   Kip  20:25, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Award Table formatting discussion
Discussion here. Just looking for some feedback and participation. The proposal is to ignore MOS:LINKONCE when formatting the Winners table. Makes accessing relevant links easier and fits consistent formatting over other tables across the IceHockey Project that are "overlinked" (e.g. [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], etc.) –uncleben85 ( talk ) 17:23, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Ice hockey template
I’m assuming that this has been talked about in the past, but I’m just wondering this for myself. Is there a specific reason that the ice hockey template does not support parameters like class or importance? Personally, I think it would be helpful. Can someone explain why? Thank you. XR228 (talk) 21:52, 25 May 2024 (UTC)


 * We shouldn't have our own  parameter (WP:PIQA suffices), but   could be helpful.  Wracking  talk! 21:58, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Just plugged in the class parameter, and it does in fact work, but the  makes it unnecessary, of course. The importance parameter does not work, but I think it could be put to good use. Is there a reason why it doesn't work? Can we make it work? XR228 (talk) 00:53, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Eric Tulsky article needed
Canes' new interim GM is a redlink, but I unfortunately don't have the time to draft and publish an article at the moment. The  Kip  (contribs) 17:36, 24 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Started a draft Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 01:56, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I've expanded it and cleaned it up. Would anyone care to do a double-check then push it to the mainspace?
 * unsure about the "Hockey career" header but I think it makes sense to split up his early career (nanotech, chemistry) and later career (consulting, executive role)... couldn't think of a better title ("Hockey analyst and executive"?) Wracking  talk! 20:53, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Looks good to me, made some minor edits. The   Kip  (contribs) 22:41, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

2024 IIHF World Championship has been nominated for a blurb at ITN/C
The article, however, is substantially lacking in prose about the tourney, which will for the moment prevent it from being posted to the front page. Anyone willing or able to work on it? The  Kip  (contribs) 05:16, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Use of team nicknames
A discussion about the use of team nicknames has begun at Talk:Vegas Golden Knights. The scope of the discussion has expanded beyond Vegas Golden Knights. Join the discussion here. Wracking talk! 23:44, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Severely out of date articles
List of team payrolls in the NHL sorely needs some love, to the point where I almost question it's usefulness and value in keeping it (though it does get daily pageviews). The edit history shows no actual update to the page in years and the annual breakdowns for each team stop at 2007-08(!). The League table hasn't been touched since 2021-22 and is incomplete dating back to 2012-13, and Seattle isn't present anywhere in the article... I'll make some preliminary tweaks, but is this worth trying to setup as a project or just it just be WP:AFD?
 * List of player salaries in the NHL is also a little questionable, like the opening table that is described as covering between "1989–90 season and the 2020–21 season", but then titled as from "1989–90 to 2007–08" and includes dates to "– present" (implying the current 2023–24 season at time of writing this), but I can update this player salary table, and others seem to already be on top of the year-by-year section. National Hockey League all-time results will be getting a refresh too.

–uncleben85 ( talk ) 15:42, 23 May 2024 (UTC)


 * I too question the value of both those lists. A quick search shows that the other major sports don't seem to have similar lists. Masterhatch (talk) 16:23, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Seconding Masterhatch. Wracking  talk! 16:26, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

The creators of those pages, User:Centpacrr and User:Twas Now, haven't been active for some time. Masterhatch (talk) 16:51, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I suggest nominating both for AFD. Flibirigit (talk) 16:57, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

If List of player salaries in the NHL were moved to List of highest-paid NHL players, it would be in line with the baseball and basketball lists. Only the "Sample salaries from earlier seasons" section would have to be removed. --NHL04 (talk) 01:18, 24 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Second this move. It more accurately reflects the content of the article. I see no reason to remove the sample salaries section though. Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 01:36, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
 * "Sample salaries" are truly decontextualized indiscriminate information and should be removed, unless some sort of criteria is formed (e.g., list of historic league minimums or list of historic highest salaries). The footnotes on the list only mark its lack of rigor: it includes money that Ronnie Rowe wasn't actually paid and it includes Bobbly Hull's WHA salary.
 * Due to the lack of sources (only a couple dozen players are listed per decade), information related to historical salaries may be better represented in prose, if at all, in this article.
 * HockeyZonePlus seems probably reliable, though they only cite the publisher, not specific articles or dates. The original newspaper articles would be preferable. Wracking  talk! 02:29, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Support That's a reasonable solution–uncleben85 ( talk ) 02:28, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Support NHL04's proposal Wracking  talk! 02:33, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Fourthed. Though the payrolls article should be placed into AfD. Conyo14 (talk) 04:18, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Support this. The   Kip  (contribs) 04:52, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Log/2024 June 1

Importance parameter
I know I talked about this a few days ago, but I didn't get an exact answer—why don't we have an  parameter on the Ice Hockey template? All the other sports Wiki projects have them. We could come up with a system for how articles should be organized by importance. I'm just saying an importance parameter would help a lot. XR228 (talk) 02:02, 31 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Because it's entirely subjective, and riddled with recentism and homerism into the bargain. What exactly does it add?   Ravenswing      07:54, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The importance parameter seems useless to me. I concur that it is very subjective. Flibirigit (talk) 13:28, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I think it we could make it work. Top importance would be level-4 vital article players (Gretzky, Howe), level-5 vital article teams (Montreal Canadiens, Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada men's national team, Ak Bars Kazan), and we can also add the NHL and the IIHF. I think we could figure out a system like this for other articles. XR228 (talk) 17:50, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't think the ice hockey project wants to delegate an importance rating to the vital articles projects. The key question is if this is just going to be a time sink in arguing about whether something is top, high, mid, low, or bottom importance, versus spending a similar amount of effort on, say, creating new lists akin to User:Ravenswing/Hockey Mountain? isaacl (talk) 18:02, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree, Hockey Mountain and other lists is a great use of our time, but adding an importance rating could show us what very important articles really need work. Speaking of Hockey Mountain, we could instead base our importance rating on Hall of Famers. I think figuring out what articles get what importance won't be too much of a hassle. XR228 (talk) 19:32, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Wasting time on an unnecessary parameter does not reduce the work needed to climb Hockey Mountain. Flibirigit (talk) 21:37, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I know that. I'm saying categorizing articles with an importance parameter could help us come up with lists like Hockey Mountain for other important articles. XR228 (talk) 22:30, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The simpler solution would be just to ask us what needs to be worked on. Flibirigit (talk) 22:35, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I suppose that could work. We could add stuff to our to-do list. XR228 (talk) 22:42, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Importance parameter? I'll need a visual example. GoodDay (talk) 17:18, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * What do you mean? XR228 (talk) 23:12, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Agree that importance parameter isn't needed and is likely to require more work than it's worth. Lists like Hockey Mountain can better fulfill the Project's needs. Wracking  talk! 23:29, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I have come to that realization. In fact, I have been working on something like that for the Boston Bruins. I think making lists can be good for this project. XR228 (talk) 23:35, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Makes sense. Also, I appreciate the work you've done on the main wikiproject page. It doesn't go unnoticed! Wracking  talk! 23:50, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for noticing that. I've noticed that the WikiProject seems to be stuck in 2008, so I hope to make it less outdated. XR228 (talk) 00:01, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Please remember to use edit summaries when working in the main space or project space. It helps everyone understand the rationale for a change. Flibirigit (talk) 00:07, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Sure. XR228 (talk) 00:16, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Okay. Hear me out. This may sound a bit insane, but just listen… What if we created a series of Good topics, all related to the NHL. The first topic can be the NHL and its teams and the second topic can be the timeline of the NHL. For the next four, we can use Hockey Mountain to help us. The third good topic can be a list of Hockey Hall of Famers, the fourth can be NHL players with 1,000 career games played, the fifth can be NHL players with 1,000 career points, and the sixth can be NHL players with 500 career goals. I know this sounds absurd, but it is possible. XR228 (talk) 00:43, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree anything is possible. Maybe some editors could help you. My primary interests are outside of the NHL. Flibirigit (talk) 00:51, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Good topics are basically just lists of related articles, so sure, you can start them if you plan to work your way through those articles to bring them to at least Good Article status (with, of course, anyone else interested free to contribute). If you don't have any plans to do so, then personally I'd suggest waiting until you do. isaacl (talk) 00:54, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Of course. I just want to see who's willing to contribute. I think it would be nice if multiple people from the project could come together and work on this. I can definitely work on it. If anyone else wants to contribute, just say so below. XR228 (talk) 01:08, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

List of WHA broadcasters
Just so everyone knows, List of WHA broadcasters has been nominated for deletion. Masterhatch (talk) 18:06, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Dead subpages
So, as I've been combing through the many subpages of WikiProject Ice Hockey, I've noticed that these pages are either really outdated or simply not used (e.g. the article improvement, requested articles, and requested images pages to name a few). I've also noticed that nobody is using any task forces. I think it would be better if we all started using these pages again. If we don't, we may as well repurpose them or get rid of them. XR228 (talk) 03:35, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Project members tend to bring concerns to this page for discussion. Task forces are disused since membership has decreased from the boom in the late 2000s. There is value is keeping these pages for historical reference and archival information. Please note that Wikipedia is not paper. The same concept applies to our WikiProjects. We don't throw out older discussions, we archive them. Flibirigit (talk) 11:35, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Going to echo Flibirigit’s statement in that I don’t think deletion is a good route to go, at least for archival purposes - they’re records of the project from its early days.
 * That said, I think this talk page mostly covers the requested articles page’s scope at this point, and task forces are mostly a one-person show at this point (ex. XR’s maintenance of Bruins pages, and my own maintenance of VGK ones). I think requested images and article improvement could still have use, though. The   Kip  (contribs) 15:09, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree. Making people use these pages will be hard. I have too much time on my hands, so I guess I'll just get these pages up to date. XR228 (talk) 22:43, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Also, I'm quoting you on task forces now being "one-person shows." XR228 (talk) 05:08, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

2023 IIHF World Championship Division II
The issue of the Georgian National Team's relegation has arisen again. Still zero reliable information available, but some input on the page might be helpful as a rather casual editor has decided they know what happened.18abruce (talk) 15:08, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Brantford 99ers
Please have a look at the page history for the Brantford 99ers, with respect to the team relocating. Several well-meaning IP addresses and a new editor have improperly overwritten the article with the new team name, but nobody cited sources. We should either move the page in question, or start a new article and preserve the previous team incarnation. Does anyone have time to play with this? Flibirigit (talk) 22:02, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Edit war at Britta Curl
An IP user keeps deleting the section of her article about her social media controversy. Given her recent media attention, at what point is protection warranted? Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 22:57, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Has any attempt been made to correct the behavior? i.e. going to their talk page? Conyo14 (talk) 23:06, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I've just left them a talk page message. It slipped my mind that that's an option for IP users. Wheatzilopochtli (talk) 23:16, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Footnote formatting on entry draft articles
Hi all, seeking an additional opinion at Talk:2024 NHL entry draft#Footnote formatting. Thanks, Wracking  talk! 18:02, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

List of NHL players with the most games played by franchise
We have previously discussed this at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ice Hockey/Archive84 in May 2024. But now the same editor has copied everything from Draft:List of NHL players with the most games played by franchise to List of NHL players with the most games played by franchise. In addition, the creator has admitted in this edit summary that it is a WP:CFORK of List of NHL players with 1,000 games played and the page has no sources. Should it be WP:PRODed or go straight to WP:AFD? – sbaio 16:33, 12 June 2024 (UTC)


 * You could give PRODing a shot. It might work. That being said though, I don't expect this article to last for failing WP:LISTN Conyo14 (talk) 05:24, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @Sbaio: Wouldn't this be fairly easy to source to Hockey-Reference.com? This shows Henri Richard with 1,258 as the leader for the Canadiens and this shows George Armstrong as the leader for the Leafs. Though I do usually agree with @Conyo14, I could actually see it passing WP:LISTN personally. My caveat is that I'd think this may work best JUST listing the leader per franchise as opposed to the top 10 or so. I think it's a subject that is talked about often enough, x player played the most games for x franchise, but my experience is mostly American football related, so our coverage of different stats and aspects may be different than yours. Hey man im josh (talk) 16:26, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Honestly, if given more sources I think it passes LISTN in its current form. It's been expanded drastically beyond being a CFORK of the 1,000-gamers article. The   Kip  (contribs) 22:12, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Utah HC plural or singular
This should be discussed again. Discussion can be found at Talk:Utah Hockey Club. – sbaio 05:34, 20 June 2024 (UTC)