Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America/Archive 24

Indigenous-Language Names
What are the rules/guidelines for adding Indigenous-language names to modern settlements, landmarks, islands, etc. I am a speaker of Lushootseed, and have been attempting to add the language to appropriate pages. I've tried to add names to modern cities in the opening line (ie, [city name] (Lushootseed: [lushootseed name] is a city...) but they keep getting reverted on the basis that the word is a name for the old settlement there that no longer exists. However this is a misunderstanding of how names apply to places and settlements. Place names are a reference to the former village but they are also the word for the land, that people have used since time immemorial, regardless of what settlement is there. Especially, as tradtionally, Lushootseed-speaking peoples were semi-migratory, many of these places would be abandoned and rebuilt each cycle. More importantly, in the modern times, these words are used to refer to the places that have been permanently settled as well. Should they be included in the opening line? What about mountains, rivers, bodies of water, geographical features, etc? PersusjCP (talk) 00:29, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
 * This issue is no different than listing older names for places in Europe, for example, Lviv, Ukraine, which has been Lvov, Lwów, Lemberg, etc. over the course of its history. We do not clutter the first sentence of the lead to placenames with the history of what that place has been called over time.  I agree with you that the name of the place where the Anglo city now stands in whatever native language would be appropriate, but not in the first sentence.  The solution for many places in Ukraine, for example, is to create a section near the beginning of the article called "Name" and including the historical forms there.  Odesa is one example where the Ukrainian, Russian, and Yiddish forms of the name are included.  The one thing that we do not do is place a clearinghouse for what that place is called in any language in the world, so that the Swahili form for Kyiv (if there is a separate variation of either "Kyiv" or "Kiev") would not be appropriate.  But the addition of the Lushootseed name in the first sentence for the place where Seattle now stands, for example, is not appropriate because it is not in common use in English (which is the rule that we try to use for placenames around the world since this is the English Wikipedia), but it absolutely belongs in a section called "Name" as long as it is clear that the name refers historically not to the city, but to the land that the city sits on.  The city is more than just the land that it occupies, although I appreciate the subtle differences between what Natives believe about the land and what Anglos believe about the land.  --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 02:12, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you, that makes some sense to me. Why though, does Lviv, for example, have native Ukranian, Russian, Polish, German, and Yiddish names in the opener? Wouldn't that also apply to those articles? Galicia has Galician, Spanish, and Portugese, Alexandria has Egyptian Arabic and Greek, Rennes has Breton, Gallo, and even Latin. Why do those include them in the opener but not for this? I assume then, for natural formations of the land, having it in the opening sentence would be appropriate. PersusjCP (talk) 02:59, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Because there are thousands of articles that cover placenames in Wikipedia, but not thousands of editors who understand how MOS:LEADLANG works. You can read the discussion at Talk:Odesa to see how the issue works in a real-world example.  There was a similar discussion at Talk:Lviv as I recall.  Ukrainian cities are probably the best examples right now because they've all undergone a recent renaming from Russian-based spellings to Ukrainian-based spellings.  The basic reasoning is that the first sentence of any article should be simple and straightforward to introduce the subject.  Details can then follow in subsequent sections.  Filling that first sentence with multiple names, pronunciations, and language labels for each of the names is a reader's nightmare.  I would like to see more Native American language representation in Wikipedia, but it needs to be done so that the primary function of the first sentence of the article isn't violated by language clutter.  A "Name" section is the best way to do that.  --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 05:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing me to Lviv. I had fixed that first sentence and created the Name section a couple of months ago, but I see now that someone who doesn't know anything about WP:LEADLANG messed it up again and I didn't notice on my watchlist.  I have fixed it again.  That's a problem sometimes with Wikipedia.  Odesa is still good though.  --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 05:52, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
 * The style guide says though, that there should be foreign language names if it has to do with the article at hand...
 * If the subject of the article is closely associated with a non-English language, a single foreign language equivalent name can be included in the lead sentence, usually in parentheses. For example, an article about a location in a non-English-speaking country will typically include the local-language equivalent:
 * Chernivtsi Oblast (Ukrainian: Чернівецька область, Chernivetska oblast) is an oblast (province) in western Ukraine, bordering on Romania and Moldova.
 * Do not include foreign equivalents in the text of the lead sentence for alternative names or for particularly lengthy names, as this clutters the lead sentence and impairs readability. Do not include foreign equivalents in the lead sentence just to show etymology. Relevant foreign-language names, such as those of people who do not write their names in English, are encouraged. PersusjCP (talk) 06:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
 * That is right, but Mount Rainier isn't "closely associated with a non-English language". That exception is for placenames in non-English-speaking countries.  The last time I checked, Mount Rainier is located in an English-speaking country.  --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 06:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Take Death Valley as an example. The Native name for the valley is tɨmpisa, anglicized as Timbisha.  (The ü is the Timbisha orthographic symbol for IPA ɨ.)  The Timbisha is found in the History section in this article.  --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 06:42, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
 * It may be majority English-speaking, but English is a foreign language here :) PersusjCP (talk) 07:11, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Touché. BTW, if you know any Shoshoni or Comanche, you'll recognize my user name ;)  --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 07:31, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Regarding the initial problem, the trouble is that a lot of editors will see the adding of Indigenous names to articles as a primarily political statement since Indigenous populations are seen as "too small" to be "relevant" or "significant". The thing is, they're half right. For believers in Indigenous sovereignty such as ourselves, making Indigenous history visible in a context where it has been rendered invisible is an act with political implications, not least because Indigenous invisibility has many benefits for a settler state (not to imply that Wikipedians are devious agents of empire, mind you). This puts us in a bind when arguing policy, because Wikipedia prioritizes relevance to the mainstream (which is now thoroughly settler-dominated) over moral standpoints like foregrounding Indigeneity (which the mainstream does not consider terribly relevant). Long story short, I've kind of accepted that the fight for the first line is not really one likely to bear rewards. A good workaround, I think, is in the later portions of the introduction which often summarize a place's history. Something along the lines of "X City was built on/near the Y people's site of Z". Since Indigenous history incontrovertibly dominates the majority of any place's human history and there are continuous ties between ancient and modern peoples, I don't really see how that could be objected to. The Vancouver page seems to do a good pretty job of this, albeit without mentioning the place-name. The only complication at that point is if the "modern" site overlaps with numerous place-names in one or more languages. Pliny the Elderberry (talk) 03:27, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Good summary. It is really frustrating, especially to those, for whom Indigenous sovereignty is a deeply personal issue, like myself, to see it constantly get brushed over when it comes to the mainstream historical community. What you mentioned, leaving it out of the beginning but working it into the intro in another way is a good workaround. I guess the next thing is just wait until it becomes more mainstream and it works its way into the style guide. Funny name by the way PersusjCP (talk) 23:17, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Perhaps, add the Lushootseed to the lede section but not the first sentence. If you can xite it, you're golden. Yuchitown (talk) 23:58, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown
 * I usually just include in the article body information about the Indigenous history prior to foreign settlement or whatnot, and then it can be included in the lead as the lead is suppose to summarize the article. oncamera  (talk page) 05:25, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Could use some more eyes
Over at Talk:Elizabeth Warren and Elizabeth Warren especially involving misconceptions around DNA. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 19:15, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Talk: Nathan Lee Chasing His Horse
There is a potential sensitive issue involving an edit someone made to this talk page in 2021. Given recent news about Nathan Lee Chasing His Horse, the edit seems especially unsettling and I believe it may be worth notifying law enforcement or tribal officials about it. See my comment left on the talk page for more info. I’m not sure what Wikipedia’s standard policy is for situations like this (or even if such a situation has ever happened in the past), so I thought I’d ask about it here. 2604:2D80:6984:3800:0:0:0:7094 (talk) 17:00, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
 * WP:SUPPRESS likely applies. That it hasn't already occurred speaks to the project's issues with attempting to be a popularity contest. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions  18:04, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I revdel'd the edit, and I see it has now been oversighted, and I sent a message to WMF Trust&Safety. I'm not sure what the "popularity contest" comment means, but I assume it wasn't previously removed because no one brought it to anyone's attention. For the future, I know the fact that I saw it here first somewhat defeats my point, but it's far better to email the Oversight Team, or WMF's T&S directly, rather than publicize it on-wiki. See WP:EMERGENCY. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:25, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for taking care of it. I'm surprised I missed it, as I have the article on my watchlist. Let me know if I can be of any assistance. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 22:00, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Talk:List of writers from peoples indigenous to the Americas
Could use some input. Haven't formally listed it, as I'm not sure it's controversial. Will do so if that seems best. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 22:54, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Attack at AN on some indigenous editors
[ Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents].

Doug Weller talk 19:45, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Métis issues
Would appreciate some knowledgeable input at Talk:Mattawa, Ontario. Especially an evaluation of this source in terms of Métis material/issues: - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 23:39, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Renaming discussion for multiple tribes
There is a discussion here concerning renaming the categories for the Cherokee, Seminole, Kickapoo, Wampanoag, Shawnee, and Blackfoot peoples. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 09:07, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Deletion discussion for Category:American writers of Native American descent
There is a deletion discussion here for the category Category:American writers of Native American descent. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 00:44, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Pima / Akimel O'odham renaming discussion
There is a renaming discussion for the Pima / Pima people categories here. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 13:57, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Renaming categories discussion
There is a discussion for renaming categories to drop "tribe" from the category title here. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 15:16, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Category talk:Honorary members of Native American tribes
Uh, yeah. This just got created. Would appreciate eyes and input. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 21:31, 3 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Oh no. Indigenous girl (talk) 21:42, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
 * That was a swift deletion. I'm glad. -- A Rose Wolf  17:48, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Dropping "tribe" from last few category names, other issues
Asking for advice from project members. There are a handful of categories remaining that still have "tribe" in the title, but I wasn't quite sure what to rename them. The categories for Category:Miami tribe, Category:Wichita tribe, Category:Iowa tribe, and Category:Peoria tribe cannot drop "tribe" because they are also state and city names. Perhaps a naming pattern such as Category:Miami (people), Category:Iowa (people), etc.? In the cases where there is only a single recognized tribe - such as Category:Mohave tribe, Category:Kaw tribe, and Category:Crow tribe - should "tribe" simply be dropped or should the title be changed to the official name of the nation (e.g., Category:Crow Tribe of Indians or simply Category:Crow, Category:Kaw Nation or simply Category:Kaw, etc)? Aside from those issues, the category for Category:Omaha (Native American) people is inelegant and I can't create a separate Category:Omaha people category for individual Omaha people because that's a disambiguation category. The solution for this issue in the case of the Category:Squamish people is the ugly Category:Squamish people (individuals). Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 04:44, 21 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I definitely prefer the formatting like Omaha people as one would see many such ethnic/affiliated group categories on Wikipedia. I don't suppose there's any way to get the geographic city resident ones to be renamed to allow for it? Probably not right? Dan Carkner (talk) 18:37, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * For those, just leave them the same. Adding parenthesis just makes it less intuitive and more difficult to type. People is usually reserved for categories of articles about individuals so adds an extra layer of confusion, and (people) isn't an improvement over tribe in regards to these being umbrella categories that include articles about language, culture, history, etc. Yuchitown (talk) 19:59, 22 February 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown
 * Ah, I misunderstood, I thought we were talking about categories that contain individuals. Serves me right for responding before drinking my coffee. Dan Carkner (talk) 21:39, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Terminology on Seminole Tribe of Florida Page
Hello all, I did pose this question on the talk page for the article itself, Seminole Tribe of Florida, but I wasn't sure how much exposure it'd get there so I wanted to drop the question here as well: The term "full bloods" is used in the article and I am unsure if this is accepted terminology or outdated? To be honest, even if it is outdated, I couldn't think of a good synonym for Seminole members who were fully "genetically" Seminole. Thanks! Amscheip (talk) 16:31, 23 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Full-bloods is still used by Native American people. For questions like this, you can refer to recent published literature while paying attention to context and authors. Full-blood has a hyphen, even as a noun, as per Merriam-Webster. I'm more concerned about the term half-breed, since that is derogatory, while full-blood is typically a term of respect. BTW full-blood is almost never literal (someone might be of 100% Native ancestry but rarely 100% a single tribal group unless one considers captives to be adopted and becoming 100% that group). In regards to Seminoles, it can't be, since they are an amalgamation of several earlier tribes. Yuchitown (talk) 16:47, 23 February 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown
 * Thank you @Yuchitown, appreciate the feedback and knowledge on the subject. Amscheip (talk) 22:07, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania
Like almost unrecognized organizational articles, Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania has attracted two wp:single-purpose accounts. I've issued wp:COI warnings on their talk pages, but those seem to achieve nothing. I flagged the article for COI edits. If the attempts to insert promotional links and content continue, I'll try using the COI noticeboard. In the meantime, any extra assistance in seeking a fact-based, NPOV article would be greatly appreciated. Yuchitown (talk) 15:32, 23 February 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown


 * Because this situation is so common, I'm trying to develop best practices to deal with it. Yuchitown (talk) 16:43, 23 February 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown


 * Looking into it. If people clearly have COI, I flag the talk page as well. If the accounts are disruptive I'll block and/or semi. I've just clarified policy to one of the new users.
 * I agree, this is typical on these articles. I'll think on what to do as I agree it's a chronic problem. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 23:10, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Looking at the self-referential edits and usernames, the COI is clear. Flagging talk. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 23:14, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah, I was not familiar with the Template:Connected contributor. I've been reading around for models of how Wikipedia deals with other subjects where the published claims are not backed up by facts. WP:PROFRINGE is helpful. Fortunately, in the case of Delaware people, the Delaware Nation is taking action, like the Cherokee and Shawnee have had to do. Yuchitown (talk) 00:26, 24 February 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Articles for deletion/Great Sioux Nation
There is a deletion conversation occurring that is relevant to this WikiProject. (talk) 02:51, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Infoboxes
I thought it had been long settled that for people who are dual citizens of a both a nation-state (such as Canada or the United States) and a First Nation/US federally recognized tribe (or, rarely, more than one tribe, with threefold citizens), their First Nation/tribe and "American"/"Canadian" are listed in their infobox under "nationality." This can't be inferred from someone's place of birth. It's a challenge since Indian law isn't taught in most schools, so most non-Native people don't understand that tribal citizenship is not symbolic; that one does have treaty rights, follow tribal laws, vote in tribal elections, etc. Any insights here would be greatly appreciated. Yuchitown (talk) 01:38, 13 March 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Pronunciation of Kúkpi7
Hello all, editor @Dirac66 left a note on the talk page for Kúkpi7 Rosanne Casimir, asking how it was pronounced and I wondered if anyone here would be able to let them know & perhaps add it to Casimir's page (I started the page, but am yet to learn about the pronunciation). Many thanks Lajmmoore (talk) 08:35, 16 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Done! The transcription is based on the phonology section of Shuswap language. There is also this source, which provides the faux-netic "COOK'pee". James Hyett (talk) 14:39, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

New editor adding unsourced and text that contradicts the source
All in good faith I’m sure, grat concern about genocide, etc, which is all good but they need to follow policy. It’s. Doug Weller talk 20:18, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Jesse Ed Davis
Was he Kiowa? Anyone have any WP:NDN-RS sources for that? - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 21:52, 18 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Yes, absolutely and of Comanche, Seminole, and Muscogee descent. His father was a prominent Comanche artist, Asawoya. Added more sources. Yuchitown (talk) 23:11, 18 March 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown
 * I figured he was Native, but we really need better sources. NAMMYs are not usable, as they continually award pretendians and either don't do due diligence, or don't care. Census records line up a bit differently than what's in the article and the Oklahoma bio only says "heritage". We don't have a source for where he was enrolled. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 19:46, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Oklahoma Historical Society is a completely reliable source that includes Native authors and non-Native historians. Most importantly, OHS consults with all 38 Oklahoma tribes and are accountable to communities. Of course, they weren't using "heritage" the way we are now. Once in a blue moon, the NAMMYs recognize an actual Native American. Yuchitown (talk) 20:11, 19 March 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Charging Thunder
a quick question: if one wants to raise a query/concern with wikidata editors but doesn't actually want to edit a page, how would one go about it? The issue: the wikidata entry for Charging Thunder (George Edward Williams) includes a photo of the real Charging Thunder (an entirely different person). Meanwhile, on the Wikipedia Sihasapa page there is a reference to Charging Thunder (George Edward Williams) - under famous Sihasapa. The corroboration for the description is a citation of a BBC article in 2006, an interview given by an English family member. The trouble is there was only one Charging Thunder who travelled with Buffalo Bill and he didn't stay in England. No idea who George really is, but he isn't CT. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.7.213.234 (talk) 10:37, 23 March 2023 (UTC)


 * For what it is worth (i.e., not much), there appears to be a gravestone in Gorton Cemetary, Manchester, for George Edward Williams, nee Charging Thunder. By the age and death date given, he would have been born about 1877, and have been about 23 when the Wild West Show appeared in Manchester in 1903. The story appears to be popular with bloggers in the UK, but I haven't found any reliable sources so far. Donald Albury 16:52, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

RfC and Discussion about Native Citizenship at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography
There's now an RfC for just putting it back the way it was: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography and after that yet more discussion on particular tweaks to the section. I've already reverted it back to the way it was, fwiw, but an official RfC is important. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 23:00, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Discussions that led up to the RfC:

Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography needs input from those who understand citizenship issues. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 21:11, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Also here: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 22:39, 30 March 2023 (UTC)


 * @Yuchitown and to a very much lesser extent, myself, tried reasoning with that Boxing fellow. Yuchi spent way more than enough time trying to explain things to him and he did not want to hear it. I'm dealing with something right now and will try to jump in. Hopefully other editors will as well because he will wear you out. Indigenous girl (talk) 00:01, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Iron Thunderhorse needs drastic cleanup
Basically promotional, most of it written by - see  their comments on the talk page. Note that Infinity Publishing is a self-publishing company and that "Ancient American" was edited by Frank Collin and is the usual fraudulent archaeology stuff. Doug Weller talk 13:39, 31 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Iron Thunderhorse, Algonquian Confederacy of the Quinnipiac Tribal Council, and Quinnipiac are the most batshit crazy things I've ever come across on Wikipedia. I'm hoping to overhaul Quinnipiac when I have the free time. Should probably get back to work this second. Yuchitown (talk) 15:47, 31 March 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown
 * Thanks. Most of it was written by this guy and anything he touched to do with Native Americans is suspect - he was clearly an Iron Thunderhorse supporter.  Doug Weller  talk 08:08, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Articles for deletion/Algonquian Confederacy of the Quinnipiac Tribal Council Doug Weller  talk 08:21, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Many changes at Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women
Including an undiscussed page move, by a user who has been moving a number of Indigenous pages without discussion. I just reverted this one. Page title discussion on talk. Could use input. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 19:17, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Discussion about merging this Wikiproject
There is a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of the Americas to merge this Wikiproject into that one. The user who initiated it has been renaming articles from "Native American" to Indigenous peoples etc without much discussion, as seen in the above discussion about MMIW. oncamera (talk page) 04:39, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Multiple page moves without discussion
Related to both of the above sections... while some have been reverted, relatively-new user moved some Native pages to new titles without discussion, or in some cases, despite a discussion on talk rejecting the title this user chose. User has been thoroughly warned, but has continued to be disruptive. I'm going back through their contribs to see if any more need to be reverted. See here, for example: Talk:Indigenous peoples of the Americas name controversy. Yes, that's where they moved Native American name controversy. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 22:31, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Great Raid of 1840
Great Raid of 1840 has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Hog Farm Talk 20:14, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Discussion about the usage of the term "Native American" on Wikipedia going on at WikiProject Indigenous peoples of the Americas
There is currently a discussion about the usage of the term "Native American" on Wikipedia going on at WikiProject Indigenous peoples of the Americas, contribute to the discussion here. – Treetoes023 (talk) 17:45, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Si-Te-Cah is a mess
I've worked on this before but I've spent hours recently poring through sources and it's just a mess, from the first sentence on. It starts "According to reports of Northern Paiute oral history, the Si-Te-Cah, Saiduka or Sai'i are a legendary tribe whose mummified remains were allegedly discovered under four feet of guano by guano miners in what is now known as Lovelock Cave near Lovelock, Nevada, United States.".

But see the section on oral history, which includes "Sarah Winnemucca, daughter of Paiute Chief Winnemucca, wrote about what she described as "a small tribe of barbarians" who ate her people in her book Life Among the Paiutes: Their Wrongs and Claims. She wrote that "after my people had killed them all, the people round us called us Say-do-carah.'" In other words, the name is a name for the Northern Paiutes according to Hopkins.

If you look at something earlier I wrote at Talk:Si-Te-Cah I've fixed the url for a survey which says ” Loud and Harrington (1929:166) questioned Hopkins name identification for Saydo-carah. They state (1929:166): “The Northern Paiute applied to the ancient people the name sai-duka’a, “tule-eaters,” a name which might be applied to any people with this habit. This may account for the application of the name or its shortened form sai’i to the Pit Rive Indians and the form Saidyuka to Indians of eastern Oregon.” This says Hopkins reorted that, well whoever they were, Paiutes or not, spoke Northern Paiute and mentions similar stories.

This"I Would Rather Be with My People, but Not to Live with Them as They Live": Cultural Liminality and Double Consciousness in Sarah Winnemucca Hopkins's "Life among the Piutes: Their Wrongs and Claims" Author(s): Noreen Groover Lape Source: American Indian which suggests the story is meant to support acculturation (Hopkins preferred American culture}.

Her book is here.

Surely the lead needs to concentrate on the people? And we have conflicting definitions of the name, although I don't think we can avoid them the name section suggests just one. Doug Weller talk 12:57, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Project-independent quality assessments
Quality assessments by Wikipedia editors rate articles in terms of completeness, organization, prose quality, sourcing, etc. Most wikiprojects follow the general guidelines at Content assessment, but some have specialized assessment guidelines. A recent Village pump proposal was approved and has been implemented to add a class parameter to WikiProject banner shell, which can display a general quality assessment for an article, and to let project banner templates "inherit" this assessment.

No action is required if your wikiproject follows the standard assessment approach. Over time, quality assessments will be migrated up to WikiProject banner shell, and your project banner will automatically "inherit" any changes to the general assessments for the purpose of assigning categories.

However, if your project has decided to "opt out" and follow a non-standard quality assessment approach, all you have to do is modify your wikiproject banner template to pass WPBannerMeta a new custom parameter. If this is done, changes to the general quality assessment will be ignored, and your project-level assessment will be displayed and used to create categories, as at present. Aymatth2 (talk) 15:07, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Hannah Kihalani Springer
A deletion discussion is underway that is relevant to this project. (talk) 15:00, 22 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Technically, Hawaii is not part of North America. I don't see a comparable WikiProject that covers Native Hawaiians, however (the only other WikiProject beside this and the one for the "Americas" I see that has "indigenous people" in its name is for Australia). So, do we just ignore the technicalities and accept Native Hawaiians as indigenous people of North America? If this has been discussed before, I apologize for bringing it up again. Donald Albury 16:21, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for mentioning that. I had not considered if Hawai'i was in scope when I posted this. I think (I am not sure) that politically Hawai'i is considered North America even if geographically it is not.
 * Perhaps this moment or location isn't optimal address the bigger questions of the scope of the project, but an opportunity for members who consider it relevant to be aware and for those who don't consider it relevant, apologies if I've erred. CT55555 (talk) 16:38, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't see a better venue for issues involving Native Hawaiians, but I'm not sure if there are any participants in this project that are familiar with Native Hawaiian issues. Donald Albury 16:46, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Hawaii is definitely not part of North America but there are numerous other wikiprojects that cover Native Hawaiians. Try WP:WikiProject Polynesia and WP:WikiProject Oceania. Yuchitown (talk) 16:56, 22 April 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Indigenous Futurisms
Does anyone here study Indigenous Futurisms? (Someone made a unilateral move to Indigenous Futurism.) The article is pretty terrible. I tried to improve it some, but this isn't really my wheelhouse. Is anyone here more familiar with the subject? Yuchitown (talk) 19:52, 25 April 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Request for comment on a relevant article to this WikiProject
Please give feedback to the new article:

Denial of atrocities against indigenous peoples

Talk:Denial of atrocities against indigenous peoples

Magonz (talk) 10:36, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Crow Village Sam
The biographical article Crow Village Sam was nominated for deleted. Yuchitown (talk) 17:23, 1 May 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Requested-move: Winnebago language --> Ho-Chunk language
You're invited to leave feedback on a requested move: Winnebago language → Ho-Chunk language. The people that speak this language article is named Ho-Chunk and the mythology is under Ho-Chunk mythology. See discussion. oncamera (talk page) 09:32, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Medicine wheel (symbol)
Needs eyes. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 22:06, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

North America section on Culture
The page on North America has a Culture section that lacks information about indigenous peoples. Other sections briefly mention indigenous histories, languages, and could really benefit from more attention. I think it would be great to add it to this Wiki Project - I'm not sure how? Still life with noodles (talk) 00:47, 11 May 2023 (UTC)


 * it to the WikiProject. Please be bold and feel free to expand . &emsp;&mdash;&hairsp; Freoh 11:41, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

RFC on usage of First Nations placenames on Wikipedia
There is an ongoing request for discussion concerning whether First Nations placenames can be used in the infobox on Wikipedia. Please provide your feedback here. Poketama (talk) 02:23, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Adrienne Mayor on Indigenous Americans’ Contributions to Paleontology
- not sure where it might be used or how, but she's a reliable source. Doug Weller talk 17:00, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

does Draft:Theodore Fontaine meet the notability criteria
Hi, is there a more specific page about notability criteria for this than WP:Notability - draft written by Monnibo - does it meet notability criteria? - (I am a draft reviewer and this is not my strong topic area) Thanks Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 01:43, 19 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia:Notability (people) is the relevant guideline, together with the GNG. HIs death was covered by multiple independent sources. HIs role does seem to be peripheral in many of the other sources. I will say that I have written biographies that are still up in WP that are possibly less well sourced than this one. Donald Albury 12:25, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

You're in the news
Almost forgot why I was on this page in the first place. If people didn't know already, there's an interesting article in Slate today that directly impacts your Wikiproject. See "How Wikipedia Erases Indigenous History" by Kyle Keeler. Floquenbeam (talk) 19:15, 2 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I read that this morning. After reading it, I began thinking about making a page in the same vein as LGBT and Wikipedia but it would be titled something like Indigenous people and Wikipedia (or a better title), since there are articles on the same topic in Smithsonian magazine, Active History, Initiative for Indigenous Futures, Washington Post, Wikimedia Foundation, and there's probably more. Historyday01 (talk) 15:43, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Just read the Keeler piece. If Slate were truly concerned about lack of Indigenous representation, they would have hired a Native writer. Yuchitown (talk) 16:06, 4 February 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown
 * I mean, reading his Slate bio, I understand why he wrote this article (as it seems to be in his subject area), but it would surely have been better if a Native writer focused on this topic instead. I seriously doubt Slate has a Native writer on staff. Historyday01 (talk) 21:22, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
 * To your suggestion of creating a page compiling all these links, that would be interesting. It could be global in scope or only Indigenous peoples of North America. Yuchitown (talk) 22:12, 4 February 2023 (UTC)Yuchitwon
 * doesn't change the fact that the article addresses a real problem but yes. PersusjCP (talk) 17:53, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I think there are a lot of issues on Wikipedia but I also think there are a lot of issues with that article, which I find beautifully written. I have been involved in all of the discussions mentioned. Wikipedia is not a place for activism. If we truly want to change the direction of society with regards to Indigenous topics then trying to do so by starting with the encyclopedia is the wrong way to go about it. We need to highlight more writings from Indigenous scholarship. We need more Indigenous scholarship. We need more good sources to draw from. Not with the intention of changing Wikipedia but the intention of education. Then, by way of said education outside Wikipedia and due to the fact there will be more sources to draw from, Wikipedia will change because it follows reliable sourcing. Writing articles saying "Bad Wikipedia" doesn't really change much in the long run of things. It has taken months of discussion on the Andrew Jackson and Trail of Tears talk page's to get real and effective change. The article's still aren't perfect. We may never get perfect, but it is changing as reliable Indigenous sources are presented which offer a different perspective and as fellow editors are engaging in those conversations with the intent to collaborate rather than force change. -- A Rose Wolf  17:44, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree with the article. I've written in the Australian history space and any edit that references wrong-doings by colonists is reverted swiftly or the language is white-washed so heavily as to remove any sense of meaning. It was very eye-opening to start editing Wikipedia and see how biased the 'history' is here. Most of the history pages in Australia are written by no more than 10 people I see over and over, with one or two taking 'ownership' of an article and forcefully reverting any edits that drift from their vision.
 * Respectfully disagreeing with ARoseWolf, it doesn't matter if there's good Indigenous sources. Long-term editors will openly flaunt policy, ignore sources, make infinite baseless arguments against good sources, utilise clearly biased (but still published) sources, and push their version by just skirting the line of the 3RR rule. All this while openly using racist language and arguments with no repercussion. As long as they were there first, they have 'consensus' and can do what they want.
 * I have found no solution to this, sometimes after repeatedly bring cases to the Admin Noticeboard, the most egregious of racists can be topic-banned. But I've had at least one case where despite the user being openly racist and violating policy for months, no action was taken.
 * This is after me spending months making edits, having them reverted, arguing and arguing, and spending a huge amount of time researching how the dispute process works on Wikipedia - only to get no response. No one has time for that. Wikipedia is broken in favour of the colonial lense. Poketama (talk) 07:43, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree with Poketama. My experience on Wikipedia has included times where I get reprimanded when pointing out people's unprovoked condescending behavior towards Native people is unhelpful to discussions and they should refrain from doing so. Saying such things as Native history, leaders and languages are irrelevant because we are a dying people. It's not appropriate but they'll use "consensus" or find another policy to override Native sources. I'm about ready to retire from Wikipedia because of the time wasted dealing with their behavior. oncamera  (talk page) 15:50, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Same here. Poketama hit the nail on the head. It makes it quite frustrating to continue editing. PersusjCP (talk) 18:05, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Agreed. The issues here have very little to do with not having enough Indigenous sources. Indigenous people have been contributing to mainstream scholarship for a very long time. If Wikipedia actually reflected mainstream scholarship, this encyclopedia would look very different. It reads more like mainstream scholarship from the 1950s! The project is so large that it would take an extraordinary effort to correct all the bias, even if entrenched racism didn't make it necessary to fight every step of the way. As it is, the task seems very daunting. Anyone who's very committed to the idea seems to get driven off the project, which definitely makes it harder. Larataguera (talk) 03:01, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
 * This discussion is pointless without suggestions of what should be included that isn't. Doug Weller  talk 16:59, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
 * @Doug Weller, yes and no. Different participants in this conversation already have ideas about what is missing: Poketama appears to think Indigenous placenames are missing; I have indicated elsewhere that there are many missing environmental conflicts that affect Indigenous sovereignty and land rights; Keeler's article that prompted this discussion mentioned some specific issues. Broadly, reliable sources say that more than 50 years of decolonial scholarship isn't getting due weight. So that probably affects thousands of articles.Since the scale of the problem is so large, and we could easily get bogged down in details about specific pages, it actually is meaningful to discuss cultural issues in the Wikipedia community more broadly that present resistance to making these changes. Dismissing that broader dialogue as "pointless" seems unhelpful to me. Larataguera (talk) 17:37, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I don’t think you’re going to change cultural issues through this discussion. But maybe if you all concentrate on a specific issue or two, if that throws up cultural issues maybe there’d be something concrete to work on. Doug Weller  talk 17:45, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

This is what I'm asking myself, and other members of the project. No need to answer here unless you want to discuss it publicly. But think about it. Email me if you'd rather. Or not. But I'd ask you to consider: Is it worse? Are things basically the same? Will more coverage of the same type have the same effect? - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 20:02, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Is the situation with Indigenous articles on the 'pedia, and our experiences editing them, better since this article came out?


 * I don't know if it's because of the article, but I think the situation on Wikipedia has become worse. People will very little knowledge about Indigenous topics or involvement in this project making mass changes, moving pages without discussion, ignoring consensus, openly referring to us as dying people or information about Indigenous place names is "clutter". oncamera  (talk page) 20:52, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I am also unsure if there's a connection, but it does feel like it's been getting worse. At least in some areas. I've also had problems with that user. IMHO, what we need are more Native editors who are committed to the project; not more non-Natives talking about Natives. Though we do have some dedicated non-Natives here who really get it and work in collaboration, that is unfortunately very, very rare. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 21:03, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Category talk
We have Category:American people who self-identify as being of Native American descent. What about a cat for Canadian Pretendians and Fétis? Canadian people who self-identify as Indigenous or Métis? - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 23:32, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Perhaps Category:Canadian people who self-identify as being of Indigenous descent? Yuchitown (talk) 23:59, 24 May 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown
 * That would work. Want to start it? - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 19:05, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Sure, Category:Canadian people who self-identify as being of Indigenous descent is live now. Yuchitown (talk) 16:05, 26 May 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown
 * Thanks! - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 21:27, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Ignace Tonené
I'm delighted to write that Ignace Tonené is on the front page, as Today's featured article (talk) 01:24, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Deletion discussion: Category:American people who self-identify as being of Native American descent
Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 1 - Could use input from those who understand how this works. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 19:40, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

The Village People
Yeah, that's what I said. And if you're cringing right now, you should be. I can't believe I'm having to do this, but, if folks could add Felipe Rose to your watchlists, it could use some watching. Some people actually believe him. Did you know he's told people that costume was "his father's tribal regalia"? - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 22:57, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

List of Native American actors, Indigenous Canadian actors, and Native American Musicians
List of Native American actors has been flagged for poor sourcing for five years. Many entries are completely unsourced, self-identified, or have citations that are neither WP:RS nor WP:NDN-RS. Needs cleanup. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 20:32, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

List of Indigenous Canadian actors also needs sourcing and checking. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 19:42, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Same issues at List of Native American musicians. Needs sourcing and cleanup. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 00:11, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

California genocide
A discussion on the talk page of California genocide could use some more eyes, see HERE. Netherzone (talk) 16:19, 30 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Hello,
 * There's some new discussion on the page to review. Pliny the Elderberry (talk) 04:27, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Nonprofit organization and church
Any additional eyes on Tap Pilam Coahuiltecan Nation would be greatly appreciated. I have too much work to do IRL to keep up! Yuchitown (talk) 04:36, 21 June 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

How to write neutrally about the residential schools
St. Joseph's Indian School‎‎ has the usual sexual abuse history, criminal charges, and more recently, well-documented fundraising scams. It was very difficult to reach consensus on text when we did. Now that consensus text is being questioned. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 18:22, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Move request
There is a move request at Talk:Black Hills land claim that may be of interest to members of this project. Larataguera (talk) 09:48, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Input requested
There’s a discussion at Talk:List of larger indigenous peoples of Russia on the identification of ethnic Russians as an Indigenous people. —Michael Z. 20:58, 29 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Michael this is the talk page for the Indigenous Peoples of North America, not of Eurasia. That would be out of this project's purview to my knowledge, I and others can offer personal opinions based on UN rulings and scholarly consensus but not from any area of authority. AevumNova (talk) 02:07, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Greetings!
My name username is AevumNova and I am wanting to become more involved in this project! I am pretty new to wikipedia and if anyone knows some simple menial tasks that need to be done please let me know! AevumNova (talk) 01:58, 3 July 2023 (UTC)


 * , there is a list of things to do at Wikipedia:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America/To do. If you enjoy looking things up, I think a satisfying task would be to take a stub article from Category:Indigenous peoples of North America stubs and search for reliable sources with which to expand it. You don't need to worry too much about formatting of text and citations, at least at first, as other editors can help with that. Adding content that is supported by reliable sources (with sufficient information to identify those sources) about subjects that fall under this project will always be a benefit to Wikipedia and this project. Other tasks might be more comfortable for you after you have gained more experience with Wikipedia policies and guidelines. As for research, if you have access to a decent library you might find some books from academic and major publishers that will be useful. Some journals and older books are freely available on-line, and others might be available on-line through a library where you have privileges. Be aware, however, that older works about Indigenous peoples of North America (and other places in the world) often have problems with accuracy and viewpoint. Members of this project can help you sort through those kind of issues. Donald Albury 17:23, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much! I found an article on domestic abuse in the Navajo Nation to be focused mainly on very old sources and am looking to update them with more modern research! AevumNova (talk) 17:24, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * That sounds good! Donald Albury 20:09, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Result of First Nations placenames RFC
Please be aware of the result of this RFC on the use of First Nations placenames for cities and otherwise. It states that First Nations placenames may be used in the infobox even if the First Nations group a minority of the population.

As an example, articles on New Zealand, Ireland, Wales, South Africa, etc. places already do this. Australia has started to roll it out, as can be seen on Melbourne. However, First Nation placenames are not widely used on US and Canadian articles yet (in large part due to editors removing them when people add them). Please feel free to add them to articles, and refer those who revert any such changes to the results of the RFC. Poketama (talk) 13:19, 3 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Thank you all. I'm happy to finally see this change in policy. PersusjCP (talk) 22:15, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I suspect it'll still take some work but I'm happy to see it happen. Glad it helps.
 * Arguments to be prepared for now -
 * •It should only be used if its an 'official' name (ie. under state law) - woops...should have put that in the RFC. It seems to be Moxy's opinion that this is the case. I haven't seen any actual policy or consensus to back this argument up.
 * •Your sources aren't good enough! (this one is perennial no matter how good the sources are, seek dispute resolution)
 * •Whether a First Nations place name can apply to the current settlement that stands atop the prior named territory (an argument repeated forever, rarely it does have merit though if First Nations people don't actually refer to the settlement area by that name)
 * •Whether First Nations names can be used in the lead sentence ie. Melbourne (Boonwurrung: Naarm). There's a lot of precedent for this but it might take another RFC to work out with North American users. Poketama (talk) 07:00, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Please take a moment to read WP:BATTLEGROUND. If you have concerns about the RfC, please discuss them in a way that assumes good faith, and promotes collegiality and consensus. Magnolia677 (talk) 12:53, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Witchcraft
There's a discussion at Talk:Witchcraft about traditional vs western/pop culture/neopagan definitions of the word, and which to prioritize in the lead of Witchcraft. As the article includes Indigenous content, could use some eyes. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 17:23, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Clan Mother
Here we go again. Just moved into article space from a student's sandbox. I don't think I can get to this today. Can someone look this over and see if it's acceptable or if it needs to be moved back to their sandbox? If it's not OK, be bold. If it's actually alright, I'd be surprised but relieved. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 20:04, 18 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Previous discussion, which resulted in move of draft (needing overhaul/cleanup) to another user's sandbox, where it hasn't really been worked on. Discussion includes links to related/overlappin articles. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 20:12, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I do apologize for the length of time it has taken. I haven't been able to devote the time needed but I haven't given up either. I am currently trying to acquire some of the books listed to verify their connection with the subject. Any determination or rewrite should still go through this project/community review and subsequent acceptance in my opinion. -- A Rose Wolf  20:23, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I haven't looked at this article in depth but parts of it may be used, provided the sources are deemed reliable, to bolster any rewrite of the other article, a merge of sorts. May be a good idea to reach out to the student editor and see if they would care to collaborate further on the subject. I am all for learning experiences and believe we all can learn but agree that it must be done in the right way for the integrity of the encyclopedia and the subjects being discussed. -- A Rose Wolf  20:30, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I left a note on talk asking them to engage here. My main issue with the first draft, the sources as far as we could ascertain, and the editor using them, was a general past-tensing and what read like a colonial lens. At first glance the new draft looks to at least be using contemporary Haudenosaunee sources, but I haven't had a chance to check them to make sure. It really should not have been moved to mainspace without more input and review, imho. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 20:33, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree with your assessment 100%. In regards to the first draft, I knew that to be your main concern and that should most definitely be addressed, however, I believe that, if I am, or others are, going to take on the task of rewriting and editing the article from my own sandbox then I wanted to make sure that responsibility is not taken lightly and the article's sources are checked and verified thoroughly. You know that in my initial days of being an editor here I made many mistakes in my assumptions of the reliability of sources and relied upon my own personal understanding of how things worked. That is an error that I have learned from, in part, because of your insistence and guidance. -- A Rose Wolf  20:42, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The article as it stands now is Haudenosaunee specific. This needs to be reflected in the title or the article needs to be expanded to address the system in other Nations. The sources are fine. Indigenous girl (talk) 18:38, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
 * My thoughts as well. I suggest posting about this on article talk. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 19:39, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
 * As the student and advisor have not engaged, I've moved it to Haudenosaunee Clan Mother and will make Clan Mother a disambig. This can be changed later if the article is expanded. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 19:44, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Hello
Hi, I'm pingnova. I like editing articles on US upper Midwest history, particularly around the Twin Cities Minnesota. I'm a white settler descendant and IRL I work with a lot of Native efforts. I decided to start researching and including Native history for any article I edit since I know it's often overlooked. I plan to continue to do that, so I'm not sure if I fall under the scope of this project since most of my articles aren't focused on Indigenous topics, but I wanted to say hi and thank you for your helpful articles on editing. If there are any particular things I should keep in mind please let me know. I am a systems thinker so I just like processes and lists to check off.

Here's my process:


 * Who isn't in this article that should be? (For me usually women and Native perspectives)
 * Who lived here before white settlers?
 * Who lived with white settlers? What were interactions like?
 * Is there a Native place name missing?
 * Which treaty is associated with the history of this place? What of the treaty may be specifically about this place?
 * Are there Native sources about this place?
 * Do the white settler sources line up generally with Native sources? (When I can't find many specific Native perspectives)
 * Is this school or orphanage really just that? Is this related to boarding schools?
 * Were people related to this topic involved in conflicts with Native groups?

I also try to keep the elements of land acknowledgements in mind since they can be a good summary to build from. Pingnova (talk) 18:47, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

DNA
Native American ancestry could use some eyes. Discussion on talk. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 23:23, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

WikiProject Women in Red this month: Indigenous women
Heads up: WikiProject Women in Red/Meetup/278 topic: Indigenous women | August 2023. They've suggested people read the WP:NDN-ID essay, thankfully, and I'm going to ask that they check in here. I've had to make some corrections already. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 19:42, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

First Nations actors
Just added the new article for Paulina Alexis to our wikiproject. Looking through the cast articles for Reservation Dogs, for instance, I'm noticing that a number of bios have not been added. This is the code to add on article talk pages if you've got the time for some wikignoming:

- CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 21:07, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Credibility bot
As this is a highly active WikiProject, I would like to introduce you to Credibility bot. This is a bot that makes it easier to track source usage across articles through automated reports and alerts. We piloted this approach at Vaccine safety and we want to offer it to any subject area or domain. We need your support to demonstrate demand for this toolkit. If you have a desire for this functionality, or would like to leave other feedback, please endorse the tool or comment at WP:CREDBOT. Thanks! Harej (talk) 17:51, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

State-recognized groups
Could there be - and should there be - a category for members of state-recognized groups? Such a category could perhaps include sub-categories such as Category:Lumbee people as well as individuals like Lisa Brooks and Jeanne Rorex-Bridges. I wanted to discuss it here to see if it would be worth considering, but I thought it might be useful to gather these people in one category. Maybe something like Category:Members of state-recognized tribes or Category:People by state-recognized tribe? Could there be an article listing people who are members of these groups? Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 15:02, 5 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Maybe not a collective list (so many lists of people languish and just duplicate categories), but I support your suggestion for specific categories. The Abenaki and Cherokee state-recognized groups are the most contested. I can't think offhand of any biographical articles for people from state-recognized groups identifying as Shawnee or Delaware. Using Jeanne Rorex-Bridges as an example; the Echota Cherokee are a giant enough group that they could warrant their own category, but then what do about her classification in Category:Cherokee artists? Downcat to Chategory:Artists from Cherokee state-recognized tribes? Yuchitown (talk) 16:21, 5 August 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown


 * Seems reasonable, given the issues with the groups named. At least a brief article and a cat. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 18:32, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

List of unrecognized tribes in the United States
Related to the above section, we could use more input at Talk:List of unrecognized tribes in the United States about renaming this list. Groups that don't meet the definition of a Native American / Indian tribe, and don't meet the criteria for state or federal recognition, are on this list. We are discussing several proposals in an effort to find a more NPOV name for these groups. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 18:32, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Indigenous Canadian personalities
Needs cleanup. I can see a number of people who are Indigenous but are inadequately sourced. While some whom I've never heard of having heritage are included, with non-WP:RS/non-WP:NDN-RS sourcing, and their bio pages don't mention any heritage. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 21:24, 7 August 2023 (UTC)


 * What a strange article scope. Lists are bad enough. Yuchitown (talk) 21:47, 7 August 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown

Input Desired at Plains Indian Sign Language
I'd like to make some changes at Plains Indian Sign Language, and I would appreciate some input before going forward. I've linked to the relevant talk page section. Thanks! Aamri2 (talk) 22:36, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
 * This section? Fixing link: Talk:Plains Indian Sign Language
 * I'll take a look. Meanwhile, I'd like to take a run at the lede. It's very wordy and a bit convoluted. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 23:07, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Acjachemen
Noting that the Acjachemen-related articles, including geographical articles for places in Southern California, have been edited to promote a self-identified "tribe" that calls itself the "Juaneño Band of Mission Indians, Acjachemen Nation". I have removed some of the promotion of this group, but we need to keep an eye open. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 10:28, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

I would also note the same issue exists for the Ohlone and Tongva-related articles. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 11:00, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Talk:Witchcraft
The article has sections on Indigenous cultures. There has been conflict around the meanings of the words "traditional" and "witchcraft". - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 19:55, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Polar bear is a Featured Article candidate
There is quite a lot in this article about Indigenous peoples. Would anyone like to make sure it's right? Clayoquot (talk &#124; contribs) 16:22, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

William Hale (cattleman) and Osage Indian murders
Hi all, I've been working on expanding William Hale (cattleman)'s article to try and get it to a good place before the release of Killers of the Flower Moon (film) likely increases traffic to the page. I wanted to post here for two reasons: 1) If anyone has time to look at Hale's article, I've read it too many times and have trouble copy editing because I'm so used to reading the errors at this point and could use another set of eyes. Also, wanted to see if there was any interest in copy editing and updating the Osage Indian murders article if it needs it. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 20:44, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Featured article review
I have nominated Lawrence Sullivan Ross for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Dylanvt (talk) 13:20, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Changes from "Indian" or other terms to "Amerindian"
See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of the Americas. Doug Weller talk 11:21, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Sheldon Jackson Museum
On Commons, I've been adding a large set of photos to Commons:Category:Collections of the Sheldon Jackson Museum; still quite a few more to come. (now completed - Jmabel &#124; Talk 04:19, 30 August 2023 (UTC)). There were not a lot of wall texts, and I'm definitely out of my depth on knowing what comes from what tribe/nation; in some cases, I'm not even sure of the nature of the objects in question. If someone has more expertise, it would be greatly appreciated if they could go through these photos to improve description and categorization.

For what it's worth, the collection is mostly (overwhelmingly) from the 1880s and first half of the 1890s. - Jmabel &#124; Talk 22:20, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Improvements for Two-spirit
Hi, I updated the IPNA importance scale to high importance on Two-spirit, indicating need for expert attention and more images. I recommend this action because the page's history of vandalism may have skewed content, that this is a significant social topic in North America (for example many use the acronym LGBTQIA2S+), there is a lack of clarity on the page about Two-spirit as an umbrella term and how it is represented in specific communities, and richer content from modern contexts is required to fully round out the article. This was my first article assessment so please let me know any feedback. I don't have time to edit it right now but I was going to compile a list of more recent resources that may help improve the page. Pingnova (talk) 01:21, 26 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Should anyone have the chance, I made extensive edits to the page to better align with OR, SYNTH, readability, verifiability, and clarity standards. The most prolific editor of the page reversed these edits and we are discussing in the talk page. My main concern is that the article is an academic and Eurocentric overview of a Native cultural topic. There are almost no Native sources, and certainly very little of the material is dated after 2009. Input on talk would be appreciated. Pingnova (talk) 21:11, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
 * As I just said on talk, there are some serious problems with Pingnova's edits, such as
 * the addition of a pull quote by a pretendian,
 * moving cited content to new sections then falsely flagging it as unsourced, and
 * removing the fact that 2S is a modern term from the lede.
 * Doing too many edits in a row for "undo" to work.
 * Pingnovae wants to revive the Two-Spirit identity theory article.
 * Pingnova also put "who?" flags on Native journalists like Mary Annette Pember.
 * Pingnova, I strongly advise you to please wait for feedback from more experienced editors before proceeding with this. I just had to do a whole bunch of cleanup, and I think that if you had taken the time to read the sources and page history you could have saved us a lot of time. I'm concerned that what you think are "better" sources may be more recent, pop culture or queer studies writings that are not accurate. Is that what you have in mind? Additionally, previous vandalism is not the issue. The page is semi'ed and editiors in good standing wrote the version you've just made massive changes to. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 21:28, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

, I was initially encouraged that you weighed in here. But proposing a new draft for an existing Indigenous wikiproject article in your sandbox: Draft:Two-spirit is concerning, as are your stated intentions on Talk:Two-spirit to "escalate". Have you read the WP:NDNID essay yet? - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 23:13, 26 August 2023 (UTC)


 * @Pingnova I am very concerned about your Two-spirit draft. Changes that were made to a stable article were unnecessary, inaccurate and for me, cause for concern. I wonder if it has occurred to you that some of the editors on the article are actual members of the 2S community? You were not even aware that an individual that you used a pull quote from is a pretendian. I appreciate that you would like an accurate article - the article was already accurate :) Indigenous girl (talk) 22:22, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * No I wasn't aware that the pullquote was from someone who didn't meet the guidelines. I attempted to verify before adding it and wasn't able to find anything that indicated it couldn't be verified. The article you sent me I don't know that I would have been able to find by myself, because it's on a user generated content blog site, which wiki guidelines specifically say arent good sources, I was only looking at established sites and the first several pages of results for keywords, vs every single mention on the internet. I really appreciate that you pointed out that part didn't work. I certainly do not want to include any false or misleading information, or anything against the identity verification guidelines. With the quote I was trying to include recent perspectives in the words two-spirit people.
 * As for the other edits, the article was confusing to read, and had over 100 sources, yet nearly the whole first half relied on about three. One was a textbook and one an internal staff communication that might have qualified as a primary source. A large portion of the text was quotes from those sources, and quotes that were truncated and recontextualized in the Wikipedia article to make it seem as though they were saying something they were not. Their ref tags were attached to claims that the articles didn't actually make. For example the communication was clipped to make it seem as though the author thought that the term and identity of two-spirit was misleading, but if you read the article she was saying that it is misleading for white anthropologists and archeologists to create records of their studies that called anything they didn't know about two-spirit rather than talking to tribes to learn their own terms. She also went on to say it's bad practice to fold any Native identity that isn't in the western conception of a gender binary under third gender or another gender umbrella, particularly if a modern tribe had record of a specific word they should use. The article was about creating precise and non-biased academic primary sources, particularly in the face of the profession's previous mistakes, not the general use of two-spirit in the way of someone choosing to identify themselves that way. But the wiki article did not specify any of that, it was listed under general criticism. I rephrased the surrounding text to clarify the context, moved it under a section about criticism of umbrella terms in academia, and completed the quote so there was no ambiguous meaning.
 * Likewise the NYT article quotes were from one person from one tribe and tradition. The two-spirirt article goes to pains to remind the reader multiple times that each tribe has different traditions and that neither two-spirit nor any other words but their own can encompass their experiences. But without specifying what tradition that person was talking about, the quote was framed as a criticism of the identity as a whole and confusingly generalized tribal two-spirit traditions. The only quote included from the NYT article titled the positive "A Spirit of Belonging" was one framed as a broad criticism and none of the other quotes talking about for example why people in the article were two-spirit or as the title implies, what is positive about being two-spirit.
 * I made grammatical and clarity edits that included reshuffling extended discussion of certain topics into headings about that discussion so the article has a clear structure and each section talks about something distinct, instead of similar points over and over again. There were duplicate references and a few that were broken as well. (One ISBN leads to another book entirely, which I think is the fault of ISBN, because the same duplication happened when I searched Internet Archive and WorldCat, but it should still be corrected.) Particularly in the lede there is extra information better suited to headings such as Etymology, since the lede is supposed to be a summary of key points and not a list of every point. The article also heavily focuses on two-spirit in academics, such as anthropology and etymology, and there's very little information on the people who actually use the term personally. Two-spirit societies, self-identified two-spirits, and a couple other mentions are it. Like I mentioned above, the article is incomplete as it is, and leans more towards the article it was merged with that was about academic theory. Many of the sources even for the two headings I mentioned are from before 2016, and being that it's 2023, about 7 years later, there should definitely be a larger body of recent literature to draw from.
 * I won't touch the page anymore because I didn't realize the state of the page was intentional and I'm not here to fight with people. I just won't be sending anyone to that page if I want them to get a good idea of two-spirit. I also noticed corbie seems to have copy pasted quite a few of my edits back in even if slightly rephrased and followed a few of of my content suggestions, particularly around the context of quotes. That's heartening even if confusing in the context of this whole exchange. Pingnova (talk) 23:14, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * You wrote:
 * But from the very beginning of the coining of the term, many of the Native folks for whom the two spirit label was intended have had issues with it. As we've sourced, a lot of Natives have felt that non-Natives have dominated the support for it, and some of these folks are journalists and academics whose voices are featured in the article. At one point we cut all the non-Native sources but then, ironically, we found that some of the better material was from a wide range of people who had actually attended the conferences and taken time to interview participants who felt unheard in the meetings. This was covered in the article, but if you were confused by it, other readers may be as well, so I took the time to clarify it more.
 * You are mistaken in thinking the "identiy theory" content was merged. The article was looked over but very little was usable. It was turned into a redirect. We have an ongoing problem of pretendians in academia trying to publish their theories here, in complete dissociation from what is going on in Indian Country. Then at the same time there are principles and protocols about these things that our editors here know, but can't source, because it's in-community stuff that isn't published.
 * You know, there's not a huge body of recent literature to draw from because the project of using 2S has, by a number of estimations, failed. It's been so widely misappropriated and misrepresented, that at this point it seems the main point of the article may be to document that trajectory. Many Natives who formerly identified as 2S no longer do, due to all the misrepresentations and misappropriations, or because it was just never culturally accurate. It's largely non-Natives who've just discovered a pop-culture simplification/misrepresentation who think it's important. More and more Natives are avoiding the term. So, yeah, we are documenting the history of development and usage in a lot of cases because there's no reason to keep building on something that many never adopted. -  CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 00:18, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * You know, there's not a huge body of recent literature to draw from because the project of using 2S has, by a number of estimations, failed. It's been so widely misappropriated and misrepresented, that at this point it seems the main point of the article may be to document that trajectory. Many Natives who formerly identified as 2S no longer do, due to all the misrepresentations and misappropriations, or because it was just never culturally accurate. It's largely non-Natives who've just discovered a pop-culture simplification/misrepresentation who think it's important. More and more Natives are avoiding the term. So, yeah, we are documenting the history of development and usage in a lot of cases because there's no reason to keep building on something that many never adopted. -  CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 00:18, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Advice on whether to mention Blackie Thompson as potentially Cherokee
Hey all, just looking for advice on whether or not to include a mention (and if so how) of potential Cherokee ancestry for Blackie Thompson. David Grann mentions in Killers of the Flower Moon that Thompson is "part Cherokee" but that's about it. No other sources I've found mention him being potentially Cherokee, but Grann is a decent journalist and a reliable source. I did some WP:original research and found a Newton Thompson (Blackie's real name was Irvin Newton) on the Dawes rolls that is the right age to be him, but of course this isn't enough to verify his ancestry without additional sources.

Currently, the article omits any mention of this, but I wanted to see if anyone had advise or best practices they could share to better handle it. Thanks for any advise! TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 19:17, 27 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Possibly can be included, if worded correctly and the claim attributed directly to Grann, if he's considered prominent enough. If further research is reveal in the future, it can always be edited. oncamera  (talk page) 19:26, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Providing sufficient context?
I am working on drafts for two Wampanoag Sachem Askamaboo and Wunnatuckquannumou, the latter of which was just declined for providing insufficient context for those unfamiliar with the subject matter, I have previously only really written articles on contemporary artists and haven't run into this before. Any tips for working through this? Not sure how to contextualize further. Chainsawpunk (talk) 03:19, 29 August 2023 (UTC)


 * "Who, what, when, where, why". Reading these, there's no dates. There's also a lack of context into their reigns -- what issues were their people facing that they resolved? Was it common to have female leaders? etc. Just like contemporary artists, they are creating withing dates and history that influenced their creations, the leaders need context to their article for the general reader. Write like you're explaining it to a 5 year old. oncamera  (talk page) 17:02, 29 August 2023 (UTC)


 * I haven't checked the draft for Wunnatuckquannumou yet, in Askamaboo's there is no indication of when she was alive. You state she was literate however she was not, she recognized the importance of literacy yet she herself had to have the letter mentioned in "Closing the Circle" transcribed (among other legal documents). Aside from being sachem at Nantucket, she had ties to Nunpoag and Chappaquiddick. Her family historically were witness to land transfers and vice versa into her time as sachem. Also, the Starbuck's Account Book which is the day to day accounting of the Starbuck's truck house on Nantucket provides insight into Askamaboo's life according to her trading. It might be available online at the Nantucket Historical Society. Indigenous girl (talk) 23:01, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you, much to think about. I'm going to get back to work. Chainsawpunk (talk) 18:34, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi @Chainsawpunk! I had a look at the draft for Wunnatuckquannumou and saw that throughout her life she was known by various names. Did you try searching for sources about her using those names, and also Mrs. John Webscouet and Mrs. Jacob Washaman? I'll keep an eye out for reliable sources that might be useful. Good luck! Netherzone (talk) 18:50, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you! I was having more trouble finding sources on her than I was with Askamaboo, but have been finding there are some holes in the sources. Am going to go back and scour again but have been trouble finding info on dates and specific territories, I am looking for Starbuck's Account Book as recommended by @Indigenous girl as I think this will be a big help for her article. Chainsawpunk (talk) 19:20, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * It's been a while since I've utilized this source, https://nativenortheastportal.com/about, you may find some helpful information here or at the very least pointers in a direction to finding more information. I wish I had time to help more but I'm dealing with health issues right now. Indigenous girl (talk) 19:42, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @Indigenous girl, I'm wishing you the very best for a full recovery. Netherzone (talk) 20:02, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @Netherzone thank you so much <3 Indigenous girl (talk) 20:18, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @Indigenous girl seconded, I hope you have a quick recovery. Thank you for your help. Chainsawpunk (talk) 20:33, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @Chainsawpunk thank you so much <3 In looking for sources for both women, aside from searching their names and variants of their communities, also check Chappaquiddick. There may be name variants not listed elsewhere. Also, look into early Massachusetts probate court records. I vaguely remember a plea from Wunnatuckquannumou to the courts regarding the enslavement of a member of the Mingo family or simply Mingo though I could be wrong. Indigenous girl (talk) 21:00, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Not sure about this new article Native American–Jewish relations
And Category:Native American–Jewish relations. I just removed Felix S. Cohen from it. The article looks good in parts but I think it needs eyes. Thanks. Ping creator of both User:Bohemian Baltimore. Doug Weller talk 19:35, 2 September 2023 (UTC)


 * It is a new article and needs to be fleshed out, with more content and better sources. What aren't you sure about? Thank you. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 19:54, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

AfD that may be of interest here
A discussion about the deletion of an article is taking place: Articles for deletion/Native American Guardians Association WriterArtistDC (talk) 23:51, 3 September 2023 (UTC)