Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan/Archive/April 2009

Er, can someone give a minute?
Hello everybody. I'm not in this WikiProject, and I'm not sure if this is the appropriate place to ask this, but I don't know where else to request it; can someone who speaks Japanese do three quick translations for me? They're games for the Pokémon mini.

If someone could also provide the rōmaji for the first game, that would be ideal. Thanks in advance to anyone that can help. -sesuPRIME talk • contribs 21:30, 1 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The first game's title is "pokemon anime kādo daisakusen" which might translate as "Pokemon Anime Card (Grand/Great) Strategy". The second is "Togepi's Grand/Great Adventure" and the last might be roughly translated as "Pokemon Trainer Mini", I suppose. Sodate is "to raise", as in "to raise a child", while "yasan" is something you tack onto the word for an object to make it refer to the seller or purveyor of that object. For example, hon is book, and honyasan is either a bookstore or the owner or manager of the bookstore. LordAmeth (talk) 21:46, 1 April 2009 (UTC)


 * This is what I have so far (the translation is rough): -- T orsodo g Talk 21:52, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
 * {| class="wikitable"

! Game title ! Rōmaji ! Translation
 * ポケモンアニメカード大作戦
 * pokemon anime kādo daisakusen
 * Pokemon Anime Card Big Battle (???)
 * トゲピーのだいぼうけん
 * togepī no daibōken
 * Togepi's Big Adventure
 * ポケモンそだてやさんミニ
 * pokemon sodateyasan mini
 * Raise Pokemon Mini (???)
 * }
 * pokemon sodateyasan mini
 * Raise Pokemon Mini (???)
 * }


 * Thank you so much! I still need clarification on the Anime Card one, though; grand/great can refer to scale or quality. By "grand/great strategy" do you mean a big/large strategy or a good (well played) strategy? Also, someone who raises Pokémon (as opposed to one who trains them for battle) is known as a breeder within the Pokémon anime/games, so I'm going to use "Pokémon Breeder mini" for the sodateyasan one. Thanks again for your help! -sesuPRIME talk • contribs 00:44, 2 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I have no idea that what is the most appropriate translation in this case. 大作戦 is a word used often in TV series or film titles. See this page. Mission Impossible (TV) is Spy Daisakusen, Star Trek - The Original Series is Space Daisakusen, Battle of the Bulge is Bulge Daisakusen, The Italian Job is Mini Mini Daisakusen. Oda Mari (talk) 05:45, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Emi Hinouchi
This article needs attention to bring it up to snuff. I've placed a list of possible references on the talk page. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 20:13, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Koban (police box): Street furniture?
A user has repeatedly added the article Koban (police box) to the Category:Street furniture, which contains things like street signs, fire hydrants, and mailboxes. I've been removing it. If you have any opinions on the topic, please join the discussion at Talk:Koban (police box). Fg2 (talk) 21:05, 3 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I've asked him to come participate in the discussion. For the time being, let's not revert until we've tried discussion the issue. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 22:31, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

"Wales" in Japanese
Hello everyone. Shouldn't ウェールズ be romanized as Weeruzu? I ask because User:Jimbo Wales/In many languages... has it written as Weruzu. It also has Jimbo's name written in Hiragana, which is weird. I brought all this up on that page's talk page (it's at the very bottom), but no one responded. So, is this a mistake or am I not as familiar with kana as I thought? Thanks. -sesuPRIME talk • contribs 23:35, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The WP:MOS-JP-accepted romanization would be Wēruzu. As for writing Jimbo in hiragana, that's a cutesy touch (perhaps not intentional). Bikasuishin (talk) 23:45, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Jimbo would likely be ジンボ. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 23:55, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * And I see that someone already noted that. I've corrected the page. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 00:19, 4 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Does he pronounce his name like "wells"? If he does, it should be weruzu. If he pronounces it the way I say "Wales," it's Wēruzu. (That's the romanization, using a macron, that would be Weeruzu in other romanization systems.)Fg2 (talk) 00:39, 4 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure it's pronounced "Wēruzu". ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 00:46, 4 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Of course that would have been my guess too. Fg2 (talk) 00:50, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

What is the reading of this
What is the reading of 僕が伝えたかった世界に最もちかいまんがです. ? (Quote from Pokemon Adventures) WhisperToMe (talk) 23:19, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Boku ga tsutaetakatta sekai ni motto mo chikai manga desu. (Went and inserted it there). Bikasuishin (talk) 23:56, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you :) WhisperToMe (talk) 00:33, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Traditional Chinese star names
Traditional Chinese star names has been nominated for deletion. Since some Chinese star names are used in Japanese, I've given you guys a heads up 76.66.193.69 (talk) 11:38, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Can someone help me move an image?
I tried to move an image from the JA Wikipedia: 天塩岳.JPG to commons, but I appear to have botched the job. Can someone help me move it?imars (talk) 15:59, 6 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Done! file:Mount Teshio.JPG -- T orsodo g Talk 17:42, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Defense_of_Sihang_Warehouse
nominated Defense_of_Sihang_Warehouse for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here.  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! ) 07:05, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

What is the reading?
What is the reading of 猿魔王 (for List_of_Yu-Gi-Oh!_5D%27s_characters) WhisperToMe (talk) 07:40, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Probably "Enmaō". Also, please stop creating insanely long section headers. Thanks! ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 08:50, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Discussion of File:Lolicon Sample.png
An editor has brought up a concern that this image is illegal and should be deleted. Please come participate in the discussion. Thank you. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 22:56, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Discussion seems to be over. WP legal counsel has declared it ok.  Big surprise there.  --C S (talk) 07:24, 14 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, and shortly afterward, I has someone pestering me for proof that lolicon was legal in the States. Not sure where that came from as I've never said it was legal, only that it wasn't illegal (at least not this particular picture). ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe

Translations of references
Could some translate the title of the Japanese references I have added to List of number-one albums of 2008 (Japan)? ~Moon~ 月 と  暁 ~Sunrise~ 04:25, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Cherry blossom
I'd like to ask for your opinion. Thank you. Oda Mari (talk) 05:10, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

冊封使
In working on various articles on the Ryūkyū Kingdom, including that on Shuri Castle, references to Chinese investiture envoys come up fairly frequently. I don't know when I might get around to writing an article on the subject - a rather complex and important topic in Ryukyuan history - but I should like to at least wikilink these in anticipation of an article being written.

The problem is what to link to, i.e. what to call this article. In Japanese, the term 「冊封使」 (sappōshi) is used (see ja:冊封使). But in English, the only thing that comes to mind is something lengthy, awkward, and descriptive, such as Chinese investiture envoys to the Ryūkyū Kingdom, which easily lends itself to arguments over whether it should be Chinese investiture missions to the Ryūkyū Kingdom or Investiture envoys of Imperial China to the Ryūkyū Kingdom or any number of other permutations.

Have I asked this before? I have the nagging feeling I might have. Any thoughts, suggestions, would be most appreciated. LordAmeth (talk) 14:44, 14 April 2009 (UTC)


 * My immediate thought was that if you would use the compound word "冊封使", then it will probably have to mean "Chinese investiture envoys" to any country applicable including 琉球, 安南, 朝鮮, etc. Then the english article name is also not toooo teeeribly looong, but the first line already will have to be awwwwfullly long like "'冊封使'" is in Chinese written XXX and pronounced 123, in ABC language YYY and 456, DEF lauguage, ZZZ and 789, let alone the whole contents. Sounds like it depends on how and to which direction you'd like to develop the target article. --Mantokun (talk) 16:21, 14 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I suppose that makes sense; if the same term applies to investiture envoys to different countries (and I'm not surprised that it would), then we could use either the pinyin for 冊封使, or a generic title like Chinese investiture missions. If I were to write the article, it would focus exclusively on missions to Ryukyu, because I have no sources or expertise on investiture missions to Vietnam or elsewhere, but it could be left open to include these other sub-topics... LordAmeth (talk) 18:21, 14 April 2009 (UTC)


 * We do have boxes that can deal with multi-lingual pronunciations of Chinese characters on the side.
 * There should be enough information - at least about the occurrence of missions - to fill out a couple of paragraphs about each of the nations in your list. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:16, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

ancient sources
There's a notice at WT:CHINA about the usage of ancient Chinese sources. Since some articles about ancient Japan will probably use some ancient Chinese sources, this may be of interest to you. See Wikipedia_talk:Did_you_know/TangTalk. 70.29.213.241 (talk) 06:37, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't mean to be a nuisance, but...
Hello everyone. Er, anyone want to run a quick errand over on the Japanese Wikipedia? I took a photograph of a Pokémon mini, and affixed it to its English Wikipedia page, replacing the existing Pm image. Well, I noticed the Japanese Wikipedia still uses the old image. I could've just replaced it, but I thought it would be more polite to leave a message on ja:ノート:ポケモンミニ informing them the new image is available and let them decide whether to use it or not. But my Japanese is pretty limited, so could someone leave a message on ja:ノート:ポケモンミニ letting them know File:Pokémon mini system.jpg is available? Thanks. -sesuPRIME talk • contribs 08:13, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 09:51, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks Nihonjoe! You know, you guys are always so responsive and kind whenever I ask for help. So, thanks to all here at WikiProject Japan! -sesuPRIME talk • contribs 10:32, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

History articles and popular culture
I saw this edit and thought it was inappropriate. Is it necessary to add an 'in popular culture' section like that way? Most of these kind of stories in pop culture are with many factual elements and not always faithful to the historical facts. IMHO, describing popular culture too much in the articles of historical events/figures is misleading for those who does not know much about the history and its people. I think we should draw a sharp line between history and the appearances of historical events/figures in popular culture. What do you think? Oda Mari (talk) 06:03, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Please see []. --C S (talk) 06:08, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Mari, thanks for pointing that out to the community. The same editor has made similar changes to many articles on historical people. These edits undo the work I had put into organizing the project into a set of historical biographies and a central repository of information on modern cultural works that refer to the subjects of these biographies. My feeling is that Wikipedia should confine the historical biographies to encyclopedic information about the subjects. I don't believe readers' understanding of Nōhime is enhanced by the knowledge that "her charge/prime attacks unleash a whole variety of gun weaponry." Similarly, people who seek information about Nene, the wife of Toyotomi Hideyoshi, probably don't need to know that an "... example of her motherly personality [in a certain video game can be found in one of her cutscenes, where she "lectures" her defeated enemies to make them get to know one another."] Is the information "Motochika has also been featured within Samurai Warriors 2 Empires, but as an infamous general, he became playable in Samurai Warriors 2 Xtreme Legends where he wields a shamisen and sports a Glam rock inspired appearance, which leads him to continuously calling himself as "The Bat King"." really about Chōsokabe Motochika? Do readers gain an appreciation of his place in history by viewing the accompanying illustration?


 * I'm not saying that Wikipedia should exclude this material. What I am saying is that it is not about the historical person, so it does not belong in the article on the person. I organized it in a separate, central location with links so interested readers can locate it. Including this material within an article on a historic person is closely analogous to the parody in the cartoon C S pointed out. That cartoon takes it beyond opinion to literal fact: such "in popular culture" sections make Wikipedia a laughing-stock. Fg2 (talk) 06:47, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I think those subculture contents should be writen for ceasing edition wars. Many people use Wikipedia to search subculture contents like Pokémon monsters. And this kind of using is much. There are certainly exist the people who want to know Samurai Warriors's fictional samurais. No matter how deleting the contents, someone will add the contents, and become endless edition wars. So I propose to create new pages. There are some examples. 1. Japanese battleship Yamato, Yamato (film), Space Battleship Yamato, 2. The Tale of Genji, The Tale of Genji (manga), The Tale of Genji (1951 film). Now there is only the page of historical samurai Tokugawa Ieyasu, but there are no other pages. So create like as Tokugawa Ieyasu (fictinal) or Tokugawa Ieyasu (Samurai Warriors). What do you think?--Bukubku (talk) 09:31, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

WikiProject Missing encyclopedic articles/Misc (Japanese politicians!)
Hello all. I would just like to point some of you to these links on the one list:

and
 * WikiProject Missing encyclopedic articles/Misc
 * WikiProject Missing encyclopedic articles/Misc
 * WikiProject_Missing_encyclopedic_articles/Misc
 * WikiProject_Missing_encyclopedic_articles/Misc
 * WikiProject_Missing_encyclopedic_articles/Misc

The missing encyclopedia project aims to make articles that are notable from lists such as this one and once the articles are completed (blue links) they are removed leaving only the unmade articles (red links). Not sure what happened to this page here (I guess not very well known), but it seems that a lot of the articles in relation to Japanese politicians/politics are created! (c.f. other parts of the page such as the Mexican politicians where nearly everything is red!) So, seeing as this is relevant to Japan, I was hoping if anyone here is willing to have a look at that page and double check that the articles are indeed what they are (and don't lead to a disambig page for example or an article about someone else not related to Japan) and remove the names from that list as appropriate. Then just leave the ones that still need work on or are red links to be eventually created hehe!

Oh and for anyone keeping track, I did a similar shout out to Australian politicians and it mustered even more politicians to have articles about them created in the future!

Thank you for your time and apologies if this is already on the page somewhere. Cheers!Calaka (talk) 07:13, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Yaotsu, Gifu (query)
Greetings to the WikiProject Japan participants! I've posted a query on the Yaotsu, Gifu Talk page, that was unresolved last month on the Language reference desk. Your help and input would be appreciated! -- Thank you, Deborahjay (talk) 12:51, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Spelling of a bookname
Tonight I have created an article for Murō-ji, and as a part of wikifying I made a change to the name of a book cited here.

Hoary asked me some questions regarding this change in my Talk page. The straight answer to Hoary's question is no, I have not seen the book live, while the cover of the book can be seen here, where the name of the temple is spelled in all capital letters.

As Hoary points out, the book is listed, for example, in COPAC with no macrons, spelled "Muro-ji", while there are also other variations like "Muro-Ji" found on the net.

With such being the case, I am asking my collegues here how the title should be spelled on Wikipedia. Just in case, I have no particular insistence on how it should be. Thanks. --Mantokun (talk) 17:59, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The question reminds me of Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles) and Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles). I think it might be Murou-ji. Because the word is muro + u, different from Ichirō (ichi + rō ). Putting Muro-ji back to hirgana, it turns out to be むろじ. But....the title of the book uses Muro-ji. Sorry, but I cannot tell what is the most appropriate romanization of 室生寺. Oda Mari (talk) 19:46, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * An earlier discussion related to the city of Ōme. I think we decided that the although the kanji that make up the name, 青梅, consist of ao + ume, the reading is irregular and the pronunciation is ōme, not oume. Of course I don't have any sound recordings of Japanese announcers saying the name of the temple in standard Japanese (and of course it could be different in kansai-ben), but I kind of, sort of, get a vague feeling I might once have heard it pronounced murōji. Imagine saying mu rō ji as if the kanji were something like 無労寺 and imagine saying muro uji as if the kanji were 室氏. The first one would be romanized murō-ji and the second would be murouji. Which one sounds more like the Japanese pronunciation of the temple name? Fg2 (talk) 20:33, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * In this Jpeg we see what appears to be the front cover of what announces itself as TOKIO RAG and I'd guess is what Copac refers to as Tokio rag, a score by one Henry Lodge (1884-1933). Whatever it is, it appears within a photograph on which is inscribed TOKIO RAG. We see here that this is the cover design for a CD described by its performers as 「Tokio Rag (東京ラグ)」. I think it's safe to say that at both levels "Tokio" refers not to anything called トキオ and indeed not to anything other than 東京 or トウキョウ or in Hepburn Tōkyō or in Kunrei Tôkyô and anyway in no romanization/transcription system (other than something paraded as a curiosity) "Tokio". Now, if I were even more of a pompous old git than I am, and had access to the Tardis, I might travel back to the London of 1912 and knock on the door of M. Witmark & Sons (publishers of what I would refer to as Tokio Rag) to give them a short lesson in Japanese phonology and the proper romanization of 東京. However I don't have a Tardis, and nobody else has, and neither Lodge nor Witmark knew any better, and there you have TOKIO written in moderately indelible ink, complete with a spelling mistake that seems to cause no consternation among the educated and trained academic librarians of Britain or indeed to the group Yoshimi and Carolina Shout. I propose that "Tokio" is perfectly fine in this context -- as is "Muro-ji" in that context. Further, that in these contexts "Tokyo" and "Murō-ji" would misrepresent what's written and would mislead and confuse somebody looking for the particular work. In saying this I don't pretend for a moment that the correct pronunciations are ときお and むろじ, and shouldn't have thought that anybody would infer this.


 * Let's put aside for a moment the interesting question of whether "Murō-ji" or "Murou-ji" is the better alternative for the temple (as opposed to the part of a title), and instead assume for now that the former is better. If for whatever bizarre reason "Muro-ji" is locally preferable, but you want to link, it's quite OK to have "Muro-ji". That said, there's a general MoS guideline or similar (one that I can't be bothered to look up) against linking from within what's quoted, if only because people neither speak nor (usually) write in hypertext. (Certainly book titles are not in hypertext; do a mouseclick on a word within a title and nothing will happen.) That aside, linking parts of a book or other title is plain ugly. Thus (from Ihei Kimura) not


 * Rokudaime Onoue Kikugorō butai shashinshū (六代目尾上菊五郎舞臺寫眞集, Photograph collection of the sixth Kikugorō Onoue on the stage). Kyoto: Wakei Shoten, 1949.


 * or similar but instead


 * Rokudaime Onoue Kikugorō butai shashinshū (六代目尾上菊五郎舞臺寫眞集, Photograph collection of the sixth Kikugorō Onoue on the stage). Kyoto: Wakei Shoten, 1949. On the kabuki actor Kikugorō Onoue (1885–1949).


 * or similar. -- Hoary (talk) 00:22, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

(resetting indent) Thank you Oda Mari and Fg2 for your comments; I think it was because of my poor explanation that I could not make the point clear, and sorry about that. The pronunciation of the temple is muroo ji, which would usually be spelled "Murō-ji" in Wikipedia, but that wasn't the focal point.

So, let me restate the question.

It is about how to cite (spell) the title name of this particular book: Picture of the book's front cover, when:

1. On the picture we see it says, " THE MURO-JI: An Eighth Century Japanese Temple: Its Art and History" (MURO-JI spelled in all capital letters.)

2. then, COPAC, as an example of external sourcing, lists the name of the book with "MURO-JI" spelled "Muro-ji", without macrons, and;

3. we (at least I) don't know how the spelling is inside the book.

Q. The question is, if we did not have further info other than it can be seen as above regarding how the title is spelled, where do we default to: do we want to "assume no macron", or "assume usage of macron", and cite such book in Wikipedia?

The reason why I brought this here is that I though we may as well encounter a similar case elsewhere.

Just as another example, in this book on Kūkai, his name is spelled in all capital letters on front cover again, and COPAC lists it as "Kukai.....", with no macrons but in fact the book does use macronned form inside (please flip over a couple of pages from the first link to see that.) What would have been the spelling of the title at Wikipedia if we did not have the latter information?

I am not touching on the other points raised by Hoary because I wanted to make the original question clear first. Thanks --Mantokun (talk) 05:32, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Murō-ji for the temple, then? There are books using Murō-ji for their titles. . Oda Mari (talk) 06:14, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Here is an answer to someone's question. When citing a book, I give its name using the same letters of the alphabet, but use uppercase and lowercase in a normal way. Milton's book is "Paradise Lost," despite the full caps on the opening page of text (as seen here, for example). The modern title also differs in modernizing the letterforms, replacing the long s (ſ) on the cover of the firſt edition (as seen here) with an "s." Getting back to the temple, I'd omit the macron from the book title, since the author omitted it. That is, it becomes "The Muro-ji" (with the long subtitle). No small caps, no full caps, no macron. But I'd name the temple and the article using the macron for the reasons I wrote above. Fg2 (talk) 07:30, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay, so simply What-You-See (on the cover)-Is-What-You-Spell, save for capitalizations; I am reverting my last edit made to the article of Ken Domon. I am going to lift the internal link as well, because I don't find a justification to link it alone when a lot others remain unlinked. Thanks again. --Mantokun (talk) 08:07, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the reversion, Mantokun, and my apologies for the poor organization of my earlier message in this thread. &para; I believe that Chicago and the other style manuals recommend use of whatever's on the title page (at least for a recent western book, which unlike Japanese books typically has no additional colophon). This may differ from what's on the front cover, spine, etc; and it needn't be consistent with the text. &para; Let's consider an American book about Shōmei Tōmatsu, specifically, Shomei Tomatsu: Skin of the Nation (Yale University Press, 2004; ISBN 0-300-10604-1). I don't have my copy of this on me right now, but my memory tells me that its text consistently refers to him as "Shōmei Tōmatsu" but the title page definitely says instead "Shomei Tomatsu". (I don't remember what's on the front cover or spine.) Indeed, I suspect that Yale UP dropped the macrons from the title page in order not to add a headache for librarians, though this is merely my "OR". Anyway, "Shomei Tomatsu" is what the title page says, and this is why I referred to the book in that way within the (dreadfully inadequate) WP article. &para; Of course nobody should take the word of amazon.com or similar for book titles; that site for example refers to ISBN 8072151290 as Marketa Luskacova, whereas the book is consistently labeled Markéta Luskačová ("Marketa Luskacova" appears nowhere within or on it, and incidentally amazon.com gets the authorship wrong too). -- Hoary (talk) 10:41, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * There's not a problem; only a solution - Cheers. --Mantokun (talk) 14:08, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Ran
I have nominated Ran for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article's featured status. Andrzejbanas (talk) 00:20, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Himorogi
Anyone has a decent photo of a himorogi? Believe it or not, neither Wikipedia nor Commons have one. If anyone has one, please upload it. There are several Shinto-related articles that need it. urashimataro (talk) 05:26, 22 April 2009 (UTC)


 * There is one at Commons. Oda Mari (talk) 05:50, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Or do you want an image like this one? Oda Mari (talk) 05:59, 22 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi. The himorogi at Commons does not correspond to any description of a himorogi I know. I am not saying it's not a himorogi, but it's not what I want. What I am looking for is the second type, the altar-like thing with sasaki and shide at its center. Thanks. urashimataro (talk) 07:58, 22 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Ok, I can easily, easily be completely wrong here...but the commons pic seems to be of an iwakura. I base this on my 'super expert' knowledge of shinto, which is that iwakura is a rock, and himorogi is a tree (for example, see section on himorogi and iwakura here).  --C S (talk) 13:41, 22 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I concur. That's what it looks like to me too. I thought of renaming the photo, but I am not sure it's NOT of a himorogi. What's irritating is that every time I see a himorogi I don't have my camera with me. Anyway, looks like no one has a photo. urashimataro (talk) 23:03, 22 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Himorogi in our daily language today can mean a relatively small area as what urashimataro has in mind, but it can even mean the sakaki tree itself, when used for the same purpose. Traditionally, it is understood that himorogi meant almost the same as yorishiro, an area where gods arrive; rocks that are placed at the center of a himorogi is called iwakura, so what you see in the picture is an iwakura in the Rokko himorogi; the Rokko mountains itself is a huge himorogi in this case. So it is maybe not a "typical" small altar type of himorogi you will imagine, and without an explanation like I gave, it is probably not the best example as a picture of himogori, but still, it is a very small, close up partial photo of a himorogi. --Mantokun (talk) 23:47, 22 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Is this available? Oda Mari (talk) 05:07, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Nice. This flickr user does have some good ones. No doubt the one Oda Mari has picked is much more visually beautiful, yet it may as well be useful to show people this one to understand a himorogi is the area surrounded by four poles in this case. --Mantokun (talk) 05:51, 23 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi. If what Mantokun about himorogi says is true, and I believe it is, the himorogi entry of Wikipedia needs serious reworking. However, the Encyclopedia of Shinto gives, if I do not misunderstand, a much narrower definition. Mantokun, could you find references for what you say, so we can add it to the article? BTW, the photo seems to be available for use. Thanks Mari. urashimataro (talk) 23:29, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

(resetting indent) Just having checked the himorogi article on Wikipedia for the first time, yes, it has a narrower definition but it correctly describes the "himorogi" we should usually have in mind today when you hear that word. This himorogi, as seen in the flickr user's picture above is typically used in jichinsai (地鎮祭). The description in our article also corresponds to what is explained in the first paragraph of the Encyclopedia of Shinto (EoS).

Talking about himorogi of ancient times, the most available source in English is still the same EoS (a reliable source, but yet I need to add some notes on this source, as put in the bottom of this post). Follow on to the second paragraph of the EoS entry on himorogi and it gives you extant records of the words usage. Then, entries on "iwakura", "iwasaka", and "yorishiro" may help you grab some more idea of what himorogi in olden days is thought to be.

An example of references readily available on the net (but in Japanese) for cross-checking is Yahoo! Japan Encyclopedia (which is basically Shogakukan's): 神籬, 依代.

As to the relation between mountains and yorishiro/himorogi, this site (in Japanese) may be intersting. I am generally not inclined to say these websites made by club-type activities are Reliable Sources. (I am only picking it up just because it is easily accessible for you to gain some idea.) Follow on to 磐座とは and 日本の磐座.

(Some additional note on the EoS) The EoS is basically a translation of 神道事典 (ISBN-10: 4335160232) 1994/07. Because the EoS is in English and available on the net free, it is a super useful and reliable source. However, I personally see in some cases there are some room for reviewing its translaion. This time, for example, when you look up "yorishiro", it will mention "himorogi", added with (divine tree). I need to check the original Japanese version the next time I have a chance and see what it says there. My guess is that it is only written in kanji 神籬 or maybe 比も呂木 (yet other variations exist) and it does not say it is a "divine tree." Himorogi is nowadays a synonym for sakaki, "but did not necessarily mean a tree at the time" (for the quoted part you can find a statement in Nihon Kokugo Daijiten), therefore it is potentially misleading to add "(divine tree)" whenever himorogi is mentioned; my guess is that EoS wanted to avoid the usage of kanji (as you notice EoS online does not use kanji at all), but it is sometimes very dangerous to replace kanji compounds with the literal meaning as we use today for those ancient words.

At the end, our article on himorogi is very brief, but not wrong. It maybe an interesting thing to add more about what it was in ancient days, but that'll require a lot of readings and sourcing wouldn't be so easy. Sorry that this post got long; I tried my best to make it concise without much success, and yet I think I could not cover all I wanted to say. --Mantokun (talk) 04:05, 24 April 2009 (UTC)


 * No need to apologize. Viceversa, thanks for elaborating. I will work on your comments.urashimataro (talk) 23:54, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Project template update
The ReqphotoinJapan template funtionality has been merged into the project talk page banner. You can now include the following in the banner code when placing it on talk pages:
 * pref-photo - Enter the name of the prefecture (e.g., ) to indicate a photo is requested for this location in Hiroshima Prefecture. Be sure to use correct capitalization (i.e., "Hiroshima" not "hiroshima").
 * pref-photo-2 - Enter the name of an additional prefecture (e.g., ) to indicate a photo is requested for this location in Aichi Prefecture. Be sure to use correct capitalization (i.e., "Aichi" not "aichi").
 * pref-photo-3 - Enter the name of an additional prefecture (e.g., ) to indicate a photo is requested for this location in Kyoto Prefecture. Be sure to use correct capitalization (i.e., "Kyoto" not "kyoto").
 * person-photo - "yes" if the article about a person needs a photo. (e.g., )
 * photo - "yes" if the article needs a photo, but the article is not about a specific location or a person (or persons in the case of a group) (e.g., )

Thanks to MSGJ for helping with the modification. Please let me know if you have any questions. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 20:38, 22 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I should note you can include up to eight prefectures. You can see the full documentation here. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 22:17, 22 April 2009 (UTC)


 * And all the ReqphotoinJapan and ReqphotopersoninJapan uses have now been converted and the two unused templates have now been deleted. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 09:38, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Goto clan
Goto clan has been prodded for deletion. 76.66.196.218 (talk) 05:21, 23 April 2009 (UTC)


 * It's been deleted as it was a disambiguation page with only redlinks. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 09:51, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Tomitarō Horii
Can you guys take a look at this? A large section of sourced text keeps beeing removed by anonymous IPs. Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 16:43, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Um... problem. The WW2DB.com (Peter Chen) source cited for those quotes cites Wikipedia in turn, thus making it an unverifiable, unreliable source. Do you by chance know this Peter Chen? Do you know which elements of his website's bio of Horii come from which source? If this quote can be confirmed from the sources given - either Darkest Hour, Goodbye Darkness, or elsewhere - it would do much to help this citation be more justifiable and legitimate. Normally, I'm not opposed to the use of websites as sources - I usually give people the benefit of the doubt that if they've taken the time to at least make it sound as if they've done serious research and know what they're talking about then they're probably relatively trustworthy. But in a case like this, where he cites Wikipedia, we can't be sure that this information is ultimately coming from a reliable source or not. LordAmeth (talk) 19:27, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, that's why I asked. I just get nervous when anon IPs delete things repeatedly without edit comment. If it's not reliable, I will take it out. Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 02:08, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Chris. I consider myself an inclusionist, and hate to be the WP:RS police, or anything like that, but anyway that's my opinion based on what I saw on the website. I do hope we can find another source for that information, assuming it's true. Maybe someone could email Mr Chen? LordAmeth (talk) 03:24, 24 April 2009 (UTC)


 * These are usually cut&paste from somewhere: Darkest Hour: The True Story of Lark Force at Rabaul Australia's Worst Military Disaster of World War II --Mantokun (talk) 05:11, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Matching template color
Looking at the collapsed templates under Rail transport in Japan, it's clear that the Shinkansen template is different from all the others. Does anyone understand templates well enough to match it to the rest? Fg2 (talk) 06:12, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Like this? bamse (talk) 06:29, 24 April 2009 (UTC)


 * That does it -- thanks! Fg2 (talk) 10:10, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Help with romanji
Can someone help me out with finding the romaji of "United States – Japanese Player Contract Agreement" (日米間選手契約に関する協定)? Thanks! -- T orsodo g Talk 19:26, 24 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Can someone improve on Nichibeikan Senshu Keiyaku ni Kansuru Kyōtei? Fg2 (talk) 21:39, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Korean-Shinto
Korean-Shinto has been nomianted for dleetion at WP:AFD 76.66.196.218 (talk) 04:22, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Mount O

 * Moved discussion to WT:MOS-JA. Please continue discussion there.

Is allcinema.net a reliable source?
A user sourced material at The Good Witch of the West using allcinema.net. Is someone well versed in Japanese willing to check if this is a reliable source? WhisperToMe (talk) 16:51, 27 April 2009 (UTC)


 * For roles information, I've found it to be reliable (meaning that every roll I've used it for has checked out elsewhere as well). ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 17:30, 27 April 2009 (UTC)


 * (EC) Very. Oda Mari (talk) 17:32, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you :) WhisperToMe (talk) 18:42, 27 April 2009 (UTC)


 * It should have been noted that this question was already posed at Reliable sources/Noticeboard, though no answers have been given there. In either case, please actually explain how this is a reliable source, per WP:RS. Being accurate doesn't make it a reliable source. -- AnmaFinotera  (talk · contribs) 21:37, 27 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The company which runs the site, Stingray, publishes multiple guides and informational material regarding films, television, and the like in Japan. This site is a digital version of the material they compile. The site is absolutely reliable. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 23:19, 27 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you. It would be good to note this on the anime/manga source list, then. -- AnmaFinotera  (talk · contribs) 23:20, 27 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree. I've used it in quite a number of articles to find/verify information on cast and staff for various works. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 23:28, 27 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Looks like it's been used on about 126 different pages here. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 23:33, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Commons Picture of the Year: Voting ends April 30
The Picture of the Year competition for 2008 on Wikimedia Commons is nearing its conclusion. Commons is the repository for media for use in all Wikimedia projects, including the Wikipedias, and Wikipedia editors who meet minimal requirements are eligible to vote. Even if you're not eligible, you'll find the winners of all the categories in the gallery. Since the categories had all the pictures that became Featured Pictures last year, these are literally the best of the best from 2008. "Voting in the final of the Commons Picture of the Year competition is open until 23:59 UTC 30 April. You can vote here." Fg2 (talk) 05:35, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Japanese characters for JAL002 pilot?
What are the Japanese characters for Kohei Asoh, the Japan Airlines Flight 2 pilot who crashed the plane in the San Francisco Bay? WhisperToMe (talk) 22:00, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * His family name is likely 麻生, but I can't find any reports that give his given name after just a brief search. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 23:09, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

mormon temple in Tokyo
There is a Mormon temple in Tokyo. Should the article belong to this WikiProject? LDS-SPA1000 (talk) 18:51, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * If it has its own Wikipedia article and passed notability standards, it does. It also belongs in the Tokyo Task Force as well WhisperToMe (talk) 18:52, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Does the Tokyo Task Force template change the appearance of the WP Japan template? LDS-SPA1000 (talk) 19:06, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The Task Force uses a parameter on the normal template - It adds a bit stating that the article is a part of the Tokyo task force WhisperToMe (talk) 21:40, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The link, for anyone interested, is Tokyo Japan Temple. There is also one in Fukuoka. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 22:53, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Korean musicians in Japan - attention needed
On the Korean WikiProject page PC78 said "Is this a legitimate subject? It looks a bit dubious to me, especially in its current state." - The article may need some TLC WhisperToMe (talk) 18:52, 29 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd say it's a legitimate topic, if the article is supposed to be about the phenomenon of Japanese entertainers hiding Korean origins and occasionally being outed by some tabloids and so forth. Article doesn't appear to be in good shape and one can see signs of future disputes looming.    --C S (talk) 05:25, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Wall Street in Japanese
How is this read? ウォール街 I know the first part is Wōru, but I'm not sure how the second part should be read. WhisperToMe (talk) 19:43, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Also what would the Hepburn for Hollywood (ハリウッド) be? WhisperToMe (talk) 19:48, 30 April 2009 (UTC)


 * 街 is gai. Hollywood is Hariuddo. Oda Mari (talk) 19:51, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you! WhisperToMe (talk) 19:55, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Was GeoCities Japan in Nihonbashi?
Looking at this: http://web.archive.org/web/19990221225412/www.geocities.co.jp/features/recruit/

The contact address is "〒103中央区日本橋箱崎町24番1号 日本橋箱崎ビル"

So does this mean that GeoCities Japan was based of of Nihonbashi, Chuo, Tokyo? WhisperToMe (talk) 20:18, 30 April 2009 (UTC)


 * That's what the address says. 〒103 Chūō-ku, Nihonbashi, Hakozaki-chō, 24-1 Nihonbashi Hakozaki Building. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 21:44, 30 April 2009 (UTC)