Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan/Archive/August 2006

Template:Japanese art history
In a moment of spontaneity, I have stolen the French art history template and converted it to be used for Japanese art. I have already added it to the page Japanese art, but nowhere else yet, as I am eagerly awaiting input and opinions.

Please see the discussion I have begun at Template talk:Japanese art history, and add your comments there, not here, for the sake of continuity and simplicity.

Thank you very much. LordAmeth 23:23, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Looks good to me. I like it. (^_^) ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  19:06, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Japan template use
Question: which articles need to have the template added? I've been reading Japan-related articles the last few weeks, and sticking on a template when it was missing (excluding those who had any child project templates). But do the templates need to be on all pages? For instance, all wards of Yokohama have a page, should all these pages have the template? Or just the parent page? Either is fine by me, I just wanted to know. Ninja neko 18:10, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Any article related to Japan, except for those you already mentioned, should be marked and assessed (see above). ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  19:05, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for answering my question :) I'll keep sticking on the template whenever I come across a Japan-related article. Ninja neko 18:29, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Just to expand on my reasoning, the WPJ template should go on all of the Japan-related articles so that we can attract even more people to help us out. There are likely several thousand Japan-related articles that aren't part of a child project, and most of those will be either Stubs or Start class articles. This will allow us to more easily find them and then bring them up to regular articles. I'd like to get to the point where Stubs are less than 20% of the total Japan-related articles, and all but the newest and recently found articles are assessed. It will take a lot of work, but I think we've got an excellent group of people working with the project. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  00:02, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Importance parameter in WPJ template
Will someone who's better than me at these parameter settings in templates please go look at the code for WPJ and see if you can fix it? I've placed the importance parameter on one article (Talk:10 yen coin), and it's throwing out sime bizarre code into the body of the article. Once you correct it, please copy the code over to WikiProject Japan as well. All the code-poring has made my head hurt. Thanks! (^_^)


 * The code is taken from the WPBiography template, in case you want to compare code. Our templates are much simpler, though. (^_^) ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  01:20, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Japanese translation
Hi folks,

Sorry if this isn't in the right place. A while back, I placed a sentence stating that the Japanese word "jiriki" means "one's own self worth", as that is what I have been told (twice) this is what it means; someone recently changed the sentence to read "by oneself". I don't speak Japanese, so I figured I'd just ask here. Does anyone know?-- Firsfron of Ronchester 05:29, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It can mean both, depending on the kanji. 自力 is "by oneself", or "self-made"; but 地力 is "one's own potential" or "one's own strength".  Can you link to the article where the change was made?  BTW, you can type in romanized Japanese into this web site, and it will translate.  (but, reading the results sometimes requires some basic Japanese skills still).  Neier 06:12, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the answer, Neier; I guess my mistake comes from just basic lack of understanding of Japanese, and the idea there can be several different translations. The article in question is Sithi. Thanks for your assistance. :)-- Firsfron of Ronchester 06:29, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Hojutsu
I just found this article, which should be about the martial art of shooting firearms, but actually, 90% of it is crap. Maybe somebody here can rewrite this, otherwise it will be a CfD. --Mkill 17:23, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I've tagged it with several cleanup tags. I know nothing about the subject, though. Feel free to go through it and remove the crap. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  18:59, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I don't know enough about this martial art to write a useful article, and I won't miss the existing one either. Thanks for adding the tags (although I'd say five of them is a little overdone.) --Mkill 18:26, 6 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I only added the bottom four (the small ones). (^_^) ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  23:17, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Symbols in Japan
If anyone wants to help out, I'm trying to compile a list of common symbols seen in Japan for which the name of the symbol isn't always known. You can see the article here. It's only got one symbol so far. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  20:20, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * See Japanese typographic symbols and Japanese map symbols. Hope that saves you some work! Fg2 22:11, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks! (^_^) ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  23:24, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Merger of translation requests and regular requests
I'm proposing a merge over here, so please come voice your opinion on the matter. (^_^) ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  23:07, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Discussion has been moved here per merge templates. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  01:12, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The Non-Japan-related requests page has been created as part of this. Please feel free to discuss here. There are a couple important things to be discussed. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  03:59, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * As there were no objections, I've completed this merger. I've added links to the new pages on main WPJ project page. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  22:05, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Shinzo Abe
I nominate Shinzo Abe for top priority. He is the leading candidate to replace Prime Minister Koizumi within a month, and his article is sure to get lots of attention.

Fg2 05:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Akira Kurosawa
How is Akira Kurosawa not ranked as Top importance for this project? He seems to fit the criteria perfectly, and I can't think of many other people from Japan who have had such a large influence outside of the country. He is already listed in the Core Biographies list. Surely he deserves reconsideration here. Does anyone really think that Sudoku is more important? Kaldari 00:26, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with Kaldari; but, the guidelines state that we can't change the status of any article to Top without an agreement here. And, although Sudoku is listed as an example, currently, Category:Top-importance Japan-related articles only has one entry: Mikio Naruse, which may or may not be founded.  But, if we follow the procedural guidelines, it wasn't discussed here as it should have been. Neier 00:51, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Mikio Naruse is a great director, but definitely not as important as Kurosawa, especially with the established criteria of Top Importance. However, in the modern world there are probably far more people familiar with Sudoku than Kurosawa, so I agree that it out ranks him.  As an example, my nine-year-old nephew is a sudoku nut, but he sure hasn't seen any Kurosawa flicks.


 * Soooo....a yes vote to Kurosawa and Sudoku being of Top Importance, but Naruse should be downgraded. MightyAtom 03:38, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and downgraded the Naruse article to Mid-Importance. I think that is about right for him. MightyAtom 05:50, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Kurosawa is definitely important. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  06:16, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, as someone else mentioned, Kurosawa is already listed as Top Importance by the WikiProject Biography team. Seems silly that WikiProject Japan doesn't grant the article the same level. If there are no objections, I think he should be upgraded.MightyAtom 06:23, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Top importance - Geisha?
Geisha seems like exactly the kind of Japan-related article that should be Top Importance, and up to Featured Article quality. Lots of interest and curiosity in the topic outside of Japanophiles. What do you all think? MightyAtom 03:41, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Kimono, Sushi, Karaoke, Samurai, Ninja, Tale of Genji are all rather obvious additions to the top criteria as well. I went ahead and tagged them all as High importance, because it seems that if we should discuss promotion to the Top importance, then the candidates should be High ranked already. Neier 05:12, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I agree on all of those as well. Especially Karaoke and Sushi, which are now pretty much world-wide and people may not even know they originated in Japan.  Tale of Genji is the most obscure on that list, but still important.  Maybe not Top Importance however...MightyAtom 05:27, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Top importance: Japan
I definitely think Japan should be at the top of the top importance list. We need to get it to Featured Article status. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  06:21, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Absolutely. Kind of stupid that no one thought of this first! MightyAtom 06:24, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

There seem to be multiple users, mostly from Japan, who have been furiously trying to ADD material to the Japan article. They have been accused of many things, some of which are NOT good. But assume good faith, and try to incorporate their positive accomplishments. Just a suggestion, but can everybody try to do the following ? .... Please try to chip in, and fix any portion you feel most comfortable with. SECTIONS OTHER THAN "HISTORY" AND "CULTURE" ARE NOT CONTROVERSIAL (i.e. there seems to be no edit-wars there). So everybody, please try to help out there. Thank you.--Endroit 13:45, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) Their English is not so good.  To fix this, read: How to copy-edit
 * 2) Weasel words have been introduced.  To fix this, read the guideline: Avoid weasel words
 * 3) The article has grown enormously.  To fix this, read the guideline: Summary style  (Add Sync tags, and move details to their respective "main articles")
 * 4) Any mention of "Korea" has been deleted from certain passages, namely in the "History" and "Culture" sections.  This may be the cause of an ongoing edit-war, and is highly controversial.  This is NOT good.  To fix this, we must follow the official policy: Resolving disputes

new sub-page
I made a sub page for Top importance candidates to be listed. WikiProject Japan/Importance is an obvious work in progress, so feel free to change it around. I listed the articles mentioned above too. Neier 13:23, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Instant noodles
Along the same lines as karaoke, something Japanese that has escaped the country and become a world product is the instant noodle. What do you think? MightyAtom 13:40, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Collaborating with Version 1.0 Project
If you guys want to contribute to the Wikipedia version 1.0 project, it's going to be important to have your "Top" articles chosen and assessed. I know you started a sub-page to work on this, but it seems to have stalled. Just wanted to offer some encouragement as it seems like you were off to a good start. Kaldari 06:53, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

National symbols
If no one objects, I would like to place the Flag of Japan, Kimigayo and the Japanese National Emblem in the top important class of articles for WPJ. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 06:57, 21 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmmm...honestly, I don't think any of those fit the established criteria for Top Importance, being "High probability that non-Japanophiles would look this up. Must have had a large impact outside of Japan and be known in the majority of the world."
 * Maybe the Flag of Japan, but Kimigayo isn't really very important, or of much interest to non-Japanophiles. MightyAtom 07:10, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * True. So Flag of Japan as Top Importance and the other symbols to High importance? User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 13:38, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Source of Image:Daylight saving time004006.png
I stumbled upon this good historical image when reading Japan Standard Time. Unfortunately, it doesn't have a source, and relicensing it as fair use [] (which is an incorrect license given the year of publication of the statute) doesn't answer that question.

Can someone please find a source for this image, whether online or offline? I'd hate to slap on the no source tag again. Kimchi.sg 01:03, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I updated the copyright tag as Meiji died more than 70 years ago, and he was the author of that edict. We should still find the name of the book, though. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  01:22, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Rating Articles
Recently several articles that I have worked on and am watching have received ratings from WikiProject Japan. The fact that they were "rated" as "B" or "C" or whatever means that someone must have read the article and made a judgment about its content based on some criteria. Unfortunately, whoever is slapping the WikiProject template on these articles isn't bothering to comment on the discussion page as to just why a particular article received a particular rating, which pretty much renders the whole idea of rating the article meaningless, don't you think? If the idea is to improve the articles, then you ought to be a bit more conscientious about discussing what could be done to improve each one. By taking a shotgun approach that just gives each article an arbitrary rating, you have pretty much reduced WikiProject Japan to just another form of bureaucracy.

Spventi 22:34, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The same could be said about your comment as it takes a "shotgun approach" that discounts the ratings placed on the page solely because no comments were left. Also, if you follow the quality scale link found in every one of those ratings, you'll find a very detailed description of what each rating means, and what to general ideas of what to do in the way of improving the article. Keep in mind that the ratings being placed now are to that members of the project can have a general idea of where the articles in the project stand. This allows people to more easily find articles that need some sort of work, and to then work on them. Before this, it was very difficult to find articles based on how well and completely they were written. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  23:53, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I did not "discount" the ratings. I 'did' say that "if the idea is to improve the article," the person who rated the article ought to take the time to indicate his or her reasoning on the discussion page, however briefly. I'm quite familiar with the quality scale, and although I certainly don't disguise my low opinion of it, I do understand the rationale behind it.


 * My point, which was perhaps not clear enough, is that applying arbitrary ratings without discussing how the decision was made does not provide the people who are actually working on the article with enough to go on, and thus ends up being just another form of bureaucracy. Since you seem to think that adding these templates is meaningful, hey, knock yourself out. I'm not here to tell anyone what to do or not to do; I'm simply exercising the right to express my own opinion, which I hope will provoke others into thinking a little more deeply about the issue.


 * Spventi 00:54, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


 * If you're unsure of why an article was rated the way it was, I recommend posting on that artcles talk page and asking about it (being sure to include a good edit summary to catch attention). The person who rated the article will then see that and likely come offer opinions on why the article was rated that way. Other editors may offer opinons as well, and the rating may very well be changed based on that. The rating is just a starting point, and an easy and convenient way to sort articles according to how "done" they are. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  01:02, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Leaving comments on every article that is assessed could become repetitive and tedious when done in large batches as I often do. The assessments should be self-explanitory and disputes can be added to the WikiProject Japan/Assess page where similar article assessments can be compared so there is consistancy - That was the theory, but in practise no one is actively assessing many articles on a regular basis. --Squilibob 11:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Image:Japanese festival decoration banner.png
I am not sure how much these banners are used in Japan, but if you think you got a use for this or two, use it. I saw this in Little Tokyo, and FOTW members from Japan also speak about this banner and a black/white version used for funerals (if you need an image of that too, message me). Enjoy. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 02:34, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Does anyone know the name for that? I've seen it used to enclose hanami parties and other festivities. Fg2 07:06, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I got the name somewhere, but this is the general description I got in English. But from what one website said,http://www.mokukouya.com/honten/shikiten.html, they call it 紅白幕（金巾木綿・天竺木綿・テトロン）. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 18:16, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds good! Kōhakumaku it is. I couldn't find an article on it in the Japanese Wikipedia, but Google found the term in a few articles. Thanks again! Fg2 21:28, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I am not sure if we could write an article on it, but perhaps add it to Flag of Japan, which needs a major overhaul, IMHO. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 21:41, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Haven't looked at that article lately, but I don't think this would be appropriate. Its use is more like a tent, although as an enclosure without a roof. Hanami might be the best place... or there could be another. Of course, the use of the article could be different outside Japan, and as Zscout370 remarks, it might have taken on some aspects of a flag. Fg2 21:44, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok, better idea; create a stub at here and expanded when needed. We can always link this article from the Japan flag article when we feel like it. I know there are two of these kind of banners, plus we can show use in Japan, out of Japan and the variants (like the black/white funeral pattern). User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 22:20, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I created Kōhakumaku, your welcome to expand as always. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 05:06, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
 * After reading some of the comments, I moved the article to a better name. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 05:06, 18 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The title's getting worse instead of better. The new title is "kohaku," a combination of colors. However, the article is not about a combination of colors; it's about banners. So we need a word to convey the idea of "banner" (maku) in the title. The article is about banners in two color combinations: kohaku and shiro-kuru. So "kohaku" is the part of the original title that we should have removed, not the part we should have kept.


 * What would you say to "Japanese ceremonial banners" or something similar?


 * Fg2 05:49, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
 * That probably sounds the best. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 20:29, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Article guidelines page
It's only at the very beginning stage, but I started creating an article guidelines page for WPJ. Please take a look at the article, and feel free to add additional information. I'd like it to eventually have guidelines on the beginning, references, external links, categories, stubs, etc. It's meant to be a general guide to help people include all of the important parts of an article. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  04:02, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Tokyo local election?
One thing that are in need of some serious work are local elections in Japan. But I wonder if there is any page on the 2005 Tokyo election? --Jonte-- 20:05, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know, but if you want to create one, go right ahead. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 20:16, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Done, Tokyo local election, 2005. But perhaps it should be called Tokyo prefectual election, 2005 instead?

Korean influence in the Yamato period
A short time ago, there was a notice posted to the effect of "We need to all keep an eye on history articles of early Japan (Yamato period, Asuka period, Kofun period) because a series of edit wars have been occurring over the issue of Korean vs Chinese influence on Japan, and the mainland origin of the Japanese people." I cannot seem to find this discussion, but I would like to revive it.

This affects a good number of the most core "History of Japan" articles, and it seems endless. A few loyal editors have taken the effort to continue to rollback and revert and fix changes made to these articles, but more needs to be done. Somehow.

The issue seems to be divided into two major threads:
 * 1) Korean influence upon Japan as being distinct from Chinese influence. Some editors desire to place priority on Chinese influence, implying that influence from Korea was essentially Chinese culture as well, and not something distinct enough to warrant mentioning as "Korean influence."
 * 2) The Korean (or Chinese) origin of the Japanese people, ethnically and genetically. I actually have not seen too much of an editwar over this in the last month or two, but it is a far touchier subject, and one that I imagine many editors would feel quite strongly about.

Everything I have read indicates that the going theory (not necessarily fact) is that the Japanese race is descended from some number of Koreans who invaded Kyushu, and then Honshu, sometime around 400AD. After that, throughout the Yamato period and into the Heian period, the Yamato state (Japan) had close ties to Korea, and to China.

I don't think this should be about competing theories - Japan absolutely was influenced heavily by China and by Korea. And its influences from Korea were definitely something different than simply Chinese culture transmitted through Korea unchanged. We may argue about the extents to which China or Korea had more or less influence, but that is a minor detail compared to acknowledging the influence of both these cultures.

I thank you all for your help. I am actually tempted at times to lock the articles involved, but then beneficial edits couldn't be made either. LordAmeth 15:22, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Saiō
Hi all, I have just deleted this article because it was a copyright violation taken from http://worldsaway.com.au/meiwa/saiku.php. I left a note to the editor claiming copyright release on how to do so properly; in the mean time, would anyone here be willing to at least write a stub there? It looks like a fairly important Japan-related article. Thanks! -- Aguerriero  ( talk ) 22:02, 28 August 2006 (UTC)