Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan/Archive/February 2012

Right to left support
Sorry for this somewhat vague question. What kind of support (if any) is there for the traditional style of Japanese writing in wikipedia (columns from right to left)? For instance, are there any templates that allow to: In case these don't exist, do you think that having them (which?) could be useful? Thank you. bamse (talk) 17:54, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) Convert text to this format for display in an article
 * 2) Display very wide images (e.g. of a scroll) in such a way that the slider starts at the very right (i.e. at the beginning of the scroll).
 * 3) Some kind of warning box (similar to the not too popular Contains Japanese text) telling the reader that all images in the article are to be read or viewed from right to left.
 * 4) any other things you could think of
 * Hmm...this might be something for the developers to answer. If it doesn't exist, it might not be too hard to do since we have support for Arabic and other horizontal right to left languages. It would probably have to have short columns, though, perhaps limited to 30-50 characters before going to the next column. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 06:26, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Do you think it would be useful to have such? bamse (talk) 08:28, 27 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I suspect this would be pretty huge to do properly as per Nihonjoe. The devs have been fighting to resolve RTL?LTR problems for years. But a simple template for a few columns shouldn't be too hard, and I think there are probably CSS tricks that would help.  Accessibility issues  might loom large. [ed:Actually I think they don't.] Rich Farmbrough, 17:20, 27 January 2012 (UTC).

Here's a quick hack. There's limitations (which may be solvable) and obvious improvements (which certainly are).


 * Rich Farmbrough, 18:03, 27 January 2012 (UTC).


 * Thank you. I was wondering why for instance "大林" appears towards the end of the first column correctly and at the beginning of the fifth column incorrectly? PS: Any chance that "2" is achievable in wikipedia? bamse (talk) 20:53, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't really know, some things seem to bind more tightly than others. For example I had top break up the year 1997 (ideally the western characters might be rendere on their sides).  Village Pump(T) is probably your friend here.



and yes it looks like left-right scroll is achievable. I would assume the RTL languages must be able to force the slider to the right. And here is a rtl scrollbar. Rich Farmbrough, 22:06, 27 January 2012 (UTC).


 * Cool! Thanks a lot. Could the problems with Vertical text RTL be due to different character encodings or wide/narrow characters? It seems the scrollbar also works for images. In fact I'd only need it for images, not text. Could this scrollbar feature be made into a template? bamse (talk) 23:12, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Easy enough.

Heiji Monogatari Emaki - Rokuhara scroll complete.jpg
 * I don't know about encodings (Unicode planes, perhaps) I get a feeling that "『時" is somehow involved - I can't read Japanese. I know that the software doesn't like breaking up Western characters, so I tried to surround them all by spaces. You could space every pair of characters, but that goes against the grain of usability. Rich Farmbrough, 11:27, 28 January 2012 (UTC).


 * But certainly if the widest character is wider than two other adjacent character, that would break things. Rich Farmbrough, 11:30, 28 January 2012 (UTC).

Test with spaces everywhere

 * Punctuation marks are not correct. See Japanese punctuation. Does this help? Oda Mari (talk) 15:20, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for RTL scroll. Could you add an option for a caption and for alt text as in Wide image? bamse (talk) 15:31, 28 January 2012 (UTC)


 * The one issue I see with the Vertical text RTL is that you need to remember to replace ー with ｜. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 23:41, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Just FYI, the vertical text can be achieved by using "writing-mode" property. However unfortunately it is not yet supported by browsers other than Internet Explorer. I think it is difficult to achive the function by limiting the cell width. If you are using Internet Explorer, the following text can be seen as vertical text.
 * ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 00:50, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

 * Think including scrolling into the RTL template wouldn't be good? 70.49.124.157 (talk) 05:29, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Punctuation marks are still incorrect. See the image. Tateyoko.png Oda Mari (talk) 07:25, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * How do you type them? I can't figure out how to get the correct ones to show up. I can't find the correct punctuation in my character lists. If we can figure out which Unicode characters they are, perhaps we can figure out how to type them (or maybe get them added to the little edit box drop down list as "Vertical Japanese punctuation" or something like that). ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 08:46, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I found them on my character map under "CJK Compatibility Forms". The characters ﹁﹂﹃﹄ have unicode codes of U+FE41, U+FE42, U+FE43, and U+FE44 respectively. It looks like you can type them in by following the instructions at Unicode input (it worked for me on X11). I couldn't find the vertical version of the full stop ". " though. —  Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 10:13, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The Unicode character encoding is the same regardless of whether it is the horizontal or vertical representation. "Unicode conforming software can substitute the proper glyphs for the same character..." Please see Unicode compatibility characters. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 10:21, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * If they are indeed the same character (which doesn't make sense to me), then we have to somehow convince the system to display the vertical version of the punctuation instead of the horizontal version. Since that would likely require an OS-level call to each person's computer, I don't know if we'll be able to do that with this current template. If the characters are actually different (meaning they have different encodings), then we should still be able to do it. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 22:44, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * If the software (word processor or rich text editor) knows the text should be written vertically, it changes the font to the one with @ prefix i.e. MS Gothic to @MS Gothic. @MS Gothic font can be seen as vertical text by rotating it 90 degree. I tried to show the font here, however Wikitext didn't accept the font, although it can be displayed in my native browser (IE).
 * I found another method to display vertical texts, If this html code is accepted in Wikitext, it can be incorporated in template. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 09:02, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, and that's something built into the OS, not the browser, and it's not currently supported in CSS2 as far as I can tell. Once CSS3 gets finalized, and the browsers all update their rendering engines appropriately, it will be as simple as using the correct CSS formatting. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 09:22, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Vertical right-to-left: Template:MongolUnicode mod
Regarding vertical RTL text for Japanese, why not make a modification based on Template:MongolUnicode? Currently its only used to properly display Mongolian script which is only written vertically RTL, and never horizontally (and only works in IE8.0+, with Windows Vista Mongol fonts installed), but it can be optimised for CJK text as well.

The above text will appear horizontal in Firefox, Chrome and Opera, but vertical in later versions of IE and Mozilla Nightly. Adding  will start a new RTL line. Using this template allows a reader to copypaste text displayed vertically, and still be able to paste it into a word processor and be able to have a perfect copy of the exact same series of text, at least horizontally, unlike using tables and breaks. Admittedly, support by certain browsers is quite incomplete (see File:15jul2010 mongol firefox-ie compare.png), though the Firefox devs seem to be working on the issue apparently (for quite some time, at that). If it isn't viable to be implemented now, I guess a mod of the template could also be used in the future once browser devs get their act together. --  李博杰  &#124; —Talk contribs email 08:42, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * It can't really be done like you suggest right now for the very reasons you lay out: only IE8+ supports it. It's not so much the "devs getting their acts together" (which can be taken as rude, implying they are doing nothing at all when the opposite is likely true). From what I understand, it's more of them waiting for CSS3 to be sorted out before they go committing to a specific way of doing something. We just need to be patient. Rich's workaround should work okay for now. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 09:00, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The Template:MongolUnicode uses "writing-mode" property with "vertical-lr" parameter. So, as I said above and Nihonjoe pointed out, we cannot use the property until CSS3 is standardized and almost all the browsers support the property. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 09:18, 29 January 2012 (UTC)


 * According to the Mongolian script article, Mongolian is actually vertical LTR, not RTL. 70.24.247.54 (talk) 05:56, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Generalized template
Perhaps this should be generalized for LTR and RTL? Vertical script and Vertical script/core with a specific invocation for LTR and RTL Vertical script/RTL and Vertical script/LTR. Then Vertical script could have a switch for direction selecting the specific subtemplate to use. 70.24.247.54 (talk) 05:59, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

WikiWomen's History Month
Hi everyone. March is Women's History Month and I'm hoping a few folks here at WP:Japan will have interest in putting on events (on and off wiki) related to women's roles in Japan's history, society and culture. We've created an event page on English Wikipedia (please translate!) and I hope you'll find the inspiration to participate. These events can take place off wiki, like edit-a-thons, or on wiki, such as themes and translations. Please visit the page here: WikiWomen's History Month. Thanks for your consideration and I look forward to seeing events take place! SarahStierch (talk) 21:32, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Translation
Not sure about the following: 若狭国松永庄新八幡宮 (Wakasa Province...) taken from here. Can somebody help? bamse (talk) 23:09, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
 * It can be divided like this. 若狭国 松永庄 新八幡宮. 松永庄/Matsunagashō is a place name. According to these pages  and, the location was the eastern part of today's Obama, Fukui. There's a river called Matsunaga. See the map. And Sho means Shōen. 新八幡宮 /Shin Hachimangū is the name of a Shinto shrine there then, meaning "new Hachiman shrine". Oda Mari (talk) 06:22, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you. bamse (talk) 08:00, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Regarding 庄, this book says "manor"; the Yano manor in Iga province, Ikeda manor in TōTōmi province, Nitta manor in Kōzuke Province. I prefer "Matsunaga manor" to "Matsunaga-shō". Because no one knows the meaning of "shō" and WP:MOSJA says a Japanese suffix allowed is only "-ku" and others are English suffixes. As for 新八幡宮, I am not sure which is the better, "Shin Hachiman-gū ", "New Hachiman-gū" or "new Hachiman-gū". Probably it is determined by what extent "新八幡宮" is regarded as a proper name. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 08:34, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Phoenix, "Matsunagashō" and "Shin Hachimangū" are transliteration of the kanji I wrote for Bamse as I thought he didn't know how to read them. I didn't mean them as translation for articles. Oda Mari (talk) 10:02, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you. No, I meant as translation for an article. Would "Matsunaga manor" and "Shin Hachiman-gū" (New... looks a bit strange to me) be ok? bamse (talk) 11:15, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * If I might an interject an opinion: I like the "Matsunaga Manor", but with the shrine, I might go a step further and write "Shin-Hachiman shrine". Boneyard90 (talk) 11:35, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * As you pointed out, "Matsunaga manor" should be "Matsunaga Manor". As for "Shin Hachiman-gū", WP:MOSJA says "Use the Japanese name and insert a hyphen before bō (坊), dō (堂), in (院), ji (寺), gū (宮), sha (社), taisha (大社) and tera/dera (寺). However, write the English word "Shrine" in place of jinja (神社), jingū (神宮) and myōjin (明神)." There is an article Hachiman shrine, however there is an article Tsurugaoka Hachiman-gū. I personally prefer "Shin-Hachiman shrine" as you suggested. We need more opinion on this issue. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 12:06, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * May I wikilink "Matsunaga Manor"? bamse (talk) 16:05, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Name Articles
For pages on given names and surnames, like Yūko, do we treat them as Lists, Disambiguation, or Articles? Boneyard90 (talk) 12:19, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Here are relevant guidelines:
 * Manual of Style/Disambiguation pages
 * WikiProject Anthroponymy/Standards
 * It depends on how much info is there about the name in question, how many people are listed, and if there is a need for disambiguation.


 * Cool, thank you. Boneyard90 (talk) 12:26, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

East Asian calligraphy?
East Asian calligraphy has been proposed to be renamed to Chinese calligraphy, see Talk:East Asian calligraphy

70.24.251.71 (talk) 08:19, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Curious question
Why is it that this is the English Wikipedia but if I want to read so many articles covered under the scope of this project, I need to be fluent in Japanese? English isn't found at the Japanese Wikipedia as far as I could determine, although I didn't spend hours and hours looking. Shouldn't English prevail here in the English Wikipedia? Please DO NOT mistake me, I'm all for diversity but how am I gonna check factual accuracy of anything? Looking through the list of references for many articles is impossible to comprehend. IMHO, using Japanese here as much as it is being used is "culturally exclusionary" and certainly goes against the grain of Wiki policy I would tend to think. If Japanese was my prefered primary language, I would not be here in the English Wikipedia. I should not have to use a translation service for the English Wikipedia to be translated into English. I understand there may not be an English translation for some things, and in cases such as that, no problem. Any comments? Ken Tholke (talk) 19:25, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * What do you mean by fluent in Japanese? Do you mean using macrons, or Kanji/Kana (Japanese characters), or that not enough terms are linked to wiktionary definitions, or that too many native Japanese terms are used instead of analogous English ones?
 * If you mean the last or the first, I find that problem much worse in European articles, especially German, Nordic and Slavic (the slavonic languages that use a latin derived alphabet). 70.24.251.71 (talk) 05:50, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree somewhat with User:Kentholke; alot of contributors in this project use Japanese terms without adequately explaining them in text or without using an English translation. Part of this may be egotistical vanity on their part ("look at what I know!") and some of it may be an apathetic attitude toward translating, which comes through as "there's no real way to translate this into English", when there usually is. The only thing to be done is for concerned editors to slowly go through articles copyediting, translating, and generally improving. (I also agree with the AnonIP and the "European articles", but that's another matter).
 * As far as references, however, that is another matter. There very simply are not English sources on many of the details of Japanese history, whether events or biographies. Some of the old and revered texts in English (i.e. Samson) cover broad areas of Japanese history. Except for World War II, it often seems that there are no sources in English for specific events. Sources in Japanese often provide the best, most accurate, and most up to date information available. In conclusion, I feel that a reader should not have to use a translation service to read an article, but references can be accurate in any language.
 * Last, are there any specific articles you'd like to bring to the attention of project members? Boneyard90 (talk) 08:52, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * To add to Boneyard's reply, the relevant policy about non-English sources can be found at Verifiability. In a nutshell, yes, you are right, we do prefer English sources; however, if no English sources are available then we can use Japanese ones. As Boneyard says, the Japanese sources will be the best for many subjects. —  Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 13:27, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

OK, let me try to clarify a little better.

I absolutely agree that Japanese language resources/references are certainly best for many articles covered under the scope of this project. Despite the references linking to Japanese language pages, I feel the reference titles and publishers should be in English as much as possible. I can easily use a translation service to read the actual page once I'm there...if I choose to go there. Occasionally, as with many article outside the scope of this project, I can read the reference title and publisher and know right off the bat that it is a credible, definitive source on where the information in question came from and has a very high chance of being correct, thereby reasoning that my time is probably better spent moving along to something else.

Currently, I have to mouseover many of the reference titles to read the DNS server text of the link in my status bar to get some sort of clue where it leads. I'm sure you can agree, DNS server text is not the optimal way to determine what many links are about. As far as the amount of Japanese that is being used, I dug deeper yesterday and saw that I perhaps I have kept landing within a minority of articles where Japanese is overly abundant. I found for the most part (after digging further) that this project's editing meets or exceeds Wiki's guidelines in respect to translation. I will begin tagging articles or sections as I happen across them where I feel translation is necessary, or I will bring them up here on this talk page. Overall, this project is a definite asset to Wiki and I for one am glad to have an opportunity to learn more about the Japanese and their culture. With more and more information being produced by this project and the English Wiki becoming more and more proliferated with it, translation to English needs to be paramount to keep English-only people from clicking away and feeling excluded or lost.

For a last note, I'm not singling out this project, I too agree there are other cultural projects which need to keep translation paramount. I'll be addressing them as well where needed. Ken Tholke (talk) 14:46, 22 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Feel free to tag articles and add topics of your interest to Category:Articles needing translation from Japanese Wikipedia. I and other people here can work on translating some, albeit slowly.--Shinkansen Fan (talk) 12:56, 25 February 2012 (UTC)


 * No, please do not tag articles with "Expand Japanese". See my comment in a new section below. -- Hoary (talk) 13:34, 25 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I wasn't referring to the use of expand tags, I was referring to PNT tags so you're safe. :) What's listed in the Articles needing Translation from Japanese Wikipedia are not what I was referring to. I just spot-checked those, I found the 8 to 10 I checked in "perfect" shape as far as translation, as well as the three articles you provided for example below.


 * What I saw a few days back were entire sections written in primarily in Japanese and pages with the majority of their 10 or more citations entirely in Japanese text. Each I saw the other day had to do with pop idol groups, their members and Wiki pages linked to them. There was no WP:PNT tag on any of these pages and that's what prompted me to show up here and learn how to become proactive about it. I had seen others just as bad not too long ago having to do with different topics.


 * Examples that approach to a small degree of what I happened across are the References sections of Girl Next Door and NMB48. What I saw the other day was far worse. These sections in particular may not need tagging but do need attention. A number of editors would tag them I strongly sense. I myself don't like to nitpick. I don't feel these need to be AfD'd following PNT tagging for what I consider a minor issue. What I saw was not minor and lent to the impression that whoever included the content had little to no regard of English-only readers here in the English Wikipedia. Again, it seems by chance that I landed only in a minority of articles. Ken Tholke (talk) 18:20, 25 February 2012 (UTC)


 * What I saw a few days back were entire sections written in primarily in Japanese and pages with the majority of their 10 or more citations entirely in Japanese text. I think I understand what you mean about it being hard for somebody who doesn't understand Japanese to guess at the nature of the "references" that are proffered as sources for what is said in an article. However, I don't remember having ever seen an article that's had a section primarily written in Japanese. Aside perhaps from the occasional nationalist, religious or other rant inserted by some nutball and deleted by some more experienced editor (possibly myself) within seconds of discovery. (The interminable disputes over trivial islands [or mere rocks] between the Japanese government and the governments of its neighbors tend to trigger little outbreaks of hysteria.) -- Hoary (talk) 02:01, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Takenori Kimura of Look Japan - Kanji?
I understand "木村" is the family name Kimura and "武徳" is Takenori, a given name.

The founder of Look Japan is Takenori Kimura. Is this the only possible kanji for his name? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 17:24, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * No. Even Kimura has other kanji like 木邑 and 紀村. Oda Mari (talk) 08:10, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Drama database
I know nothing about Japanese TV, but was invited to add TV adaptations to The Dancing Girl of Izu. I've just done this, each time citing tvdrama-db.com. Of course I should have asked before, but does this count as a RS?

Incidentally, the typical entry in tvdrama-db.com attributes a dorama to two or more TV stations; each time I chose just one, not really knowing why. Expert help here much appreciated!

I omitted a couple of entries that looked irrelevant to the story, instead adding these to the talk page. Somebody knowing more than I do may wish to add them to the article.

Unsurprisingly, the corresponding information/misinformation within the Japanese-language equivalent. (Occasionally I look at ja:WP's featured article of the day, just to reassure myself that yes, a few contributors over there have indeed heard of the concept of sourcing.) -- Hoary (talk) 10:32, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

"Articles needing translation from Japanese Wikipedia"
To Shinkansen Fan (a little way above), or others here:

I don't understand why you would wish to encourage somebody to chuck articles into Category:Articles needing translation from Japanese Wikipedia. I looked at the category a few minutes ago and among all the dams, etc, picked three articles on subjects I'd heard of:


 * Mount Bizan asks for translation from ja:眉山 (徳島市), which has one footnote.
 * Arata Isozaki asks for translation from ja:磯崎新, which has two footnotes.
 * Michio Hoshino asks for translation from ja:星野道夫, which has two footnotes.

I do not claim that my sample of three articles is representative. I'd be happy to learn that it is not (although in my experience of ja:WP, unsourced assertions are not the exception but the rule). But as it is, asking for the addition to these en:WP articles of material translated from ja:WP is asking for the addition of unsourced material. What ever happened to "WP:V"?

Isozaki is particularly well known in the anglosphere. There's at least one book in English on his work. Asking some intelligent contributor here to read and digest a book (in whatever language) on Isozaki and then to summarize the important bits in order to augment the article here about him: now that would make sense. -- Hoary (talk) 13:31, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * When I translate articles, I tend to use any refs in the jawp article, and then find a few others of my own. I don't see a problem with asking for articles to be translated. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 00:22, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
 * That's commendable. But here's what the template now says: A corresponding article in the Japanese Wikipedia may contain information and sources useful in building this article. Typically, the article contains lists of assertions (maybe information, maybe misinformation) with virtually no sources. Indeed, if you take up the suggestion of clicking "[show]", you read: Do not translate text that appears unreliable or low-quality. If possible, verify the text with references provided in the foreign-language article. Have I had an extraordinary run of bad luck in ja:WP? Whether because of this bad luck, because of my misunderstanding of the articles I've seen there, or because of the actual crappiness of ja:WP, the text has usually lacked references and thus been unreliable. And so the template is usually pointless (self-defeating) if read carefully and potentially dangerous if read hastily. -- Hoary (talk) 02:11, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Note that it states "may contain", not that it absolutely will contain them. It's up to the editors here to make sure the topic has enough in the way of sources to support the content of the article, and to find additional sources if needed (and it usually is needed). Regardless, it can be a useful template and is used for many languages other than Japanese. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 02:24, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Well yes, true, it does indeed say "may contain". But I wonder how it can be useful. &para; When I see the template, I take it to mean Somebody has noticed that this article is inadequate and that its equivalent in Japanese-language Wikipedia seems to be longer. So this person (perhaps unable to read any Japanese, and unfamiliar with Japanese-language Wikipedia) hopes that the content of the Japanese article would appear in this one too. If the subject happens to interest me, I often click on the link and look at the Japanese article. Almost always it's virtually unsourced -- Have I been unlucky here? -- and very often it's pretty dreary too (the writers of ja:WP are particularly keen on chronologies). &para; I don't deny that good articles in ja:WP exist, or that the poor majority aren't indirectly useful: the unsourced list of film adaptations in 伊豆の踊子 prompted me to look in the 聞蔵 database of Asahi Shinbun and there find one article via which I could add a sourced list to the English equivalent. But with or without a template, if I'm disappointed by an article here about something Japanese and am interested in the subject, it's likely that I'll look at the Japanese article to see if anything there is usable. &para; How do you find the template useful, or how do you suppose that others might find it useful? -- Hoary (talk) 09:53, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, it's apparent that nothing I write will encourage you to see the usefulness of the template. Regardless of your opinion, the template (and the others like it for other languages) are found useful by a significant portion of people here. If you don't find it helpful, don't use it. Others of us will continue to use it as needed. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 07:06, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Perhaps I'm not as open-minded as I'd like to think, but I do like to think I'm open-minded. I've been wondering how anyone (whether a highly experienced editor such as yourself, somebody who is new, or people anywhere between) finds this template useful, and still don't know. (NB I'm not asking about "Expand German" and the others.) Occasionally in the past I've seen the "Expand Japanese" template attached to admittedly mediocre (or worse) articles on subjects in which I've had an interest, clicked on the link, and found that, sure enough, the Japanese article was largely unsourced. Knowing that even an accurate translation of the Japanese article would result in the addition of unsourced material, I've then removed the template. I don't (yet) regret having done this, and indeed I'm inclined to remove the template from the three articles I've listed above, as I think its appearance may encourage poor practice. Is there something about the template that I fail to understand? -- Hoary (talk) 23:54, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Discussion at Kawaii
If anybody wants to help out User:Hoary, he initiated a discussion at Talk:Kawaii. I couldn't help. Boneyard90 (talk) 20:00, 26 February 2012 (UTC)


 * What about the definition of "charisma?" Does that approach kawaii? I get the impression kawaii falls in between cute and charismatic. Ken Tholke (talk) 02:02, 29 February 2012 (UTC)