Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan/Archive/July 2006

Take a look?
Hey there! I am pretty new to wikipedia, but I have been having a good time putting some articles together. I would appreciate if anyone would take a look at my most recent one, and give me some feedback.

Sorry if this isn't the right place to make this request!

Here it is:

yotsuya kaidan

Thanks!

MightyAtom 04:36, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks to LordAmeth for his help!

MightyAtom 03:10, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

WP:J Barnstar discussion
Here are the current candidates: 

Does anyone else have any candidates? I think leaving this open until Friday, June 9, 2006 would allow anyone interested to propose candidates. Please keep in mind that the candidates must be free. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  20:41, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * As the voting's way overdue, I propose that we start the voting process. Of course, if anybody else has any suggestions, please feel free to add the image and a separate heading below. I suggest we leave this vote up for about 10 days, or when consensus is reached. Cheers, Tangot a ngo 17:26, 17 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Seems like 10 days isn't going to cut it. Only three people have "voted" so far. Everyone, please cast your support under whichever section below. We need to get this decided. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk  to Nihonjo e  07:58, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Please come offer your opinion if you haven't already. There are quite a few members of this project, and we need more input than just five individuals. Thanks for your time! (^_^) ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  23:31, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, since no one else seems to be interested, I'm going to declare the red hinomaru sensu the winner as it has twice as many votes as either of the others. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  02:49, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for finally putting an end to this poll :) - Tangot a ngo 18:50, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Please write support under a heading if you support a barnstar.

Barn tomoe

 * Support - MightyAtom 12:31, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Looks way too Korean. Jpatokal 02:36, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Barn sensu (raster or vector version)

 * Support - Tangot a ngo 17:26, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Support - LordAmeth 12:31, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Barn sensu (red hinomaru version)

 * Support - Neier 11:16, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Support ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  18:18, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Support. --maru  (talk)  contribs 00:02, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Support --Nobunaga24 00:16, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Support --Sasuke-kun27 02:43, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Main project page makeover
I've been thinking the main page needs a makeover to make it more inviting. I've made one possiblity here. If you have thoughts on this makeover, or if you have other possible ideas, please share them here. Thanks! (^_^)··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  23:58, 25 June 2006 (UTC)


 * So, anyone have any thoughts on this? ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  20:13, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * What's with the color? --maru  (talk)  contribs 22:44, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * What do you mean? I thought it looked nice, if what you're wondering is why I used color. If you're asking something else, you'll need to elaborate a bit. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  00:10, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


 * To be more specific, it doesn't look good- looks jaundiced; it's also kind of cluttered, but that probably involve more than simple rearranging to fix. --maru   (talk)  contribs 00:58, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Never heard of anything non-alive that could be described as "jaundiced", especially since "jaundiced" indicated a yellow-green color. However, I changed the color to make it more tan. As for being cluttered. for a project this big, there will always be a lot of information. I tried to put quick-reference things on the right, and more substantial things on the left. It's just a quick mock-up, though, and I'm more than willing to discuss design modifications. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  01:59, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

So, anyone else have any comments? I'd like to get as many comments, ideas, thoughts, etc., as possible. (^_^) ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  07:56, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I like the colors. I'd like to see a version with the two columns swapped around in color. That is, the left column with the blue background and the right with the green/tan background. --Squilibob 14:41, 15 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, sorry for the slow reply but I didn't notice it until now. (^_^;;
 * Anyway, I've made a swapped-color version here. There are links at the top of each which take you to the other. Please let me know what you think (everyone, not just Squilibob). Also, I'm very open to other ideas. I'm just trying to find a way of making the main project page easier to wade through. The project is a huge umbrella, and therefore has a huge amount of stuff that needs to be there. Please post your thoughts on my proposal, as well as any proposals you may have as well. Thanks! ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  03:53, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I like the organization into boxes and sections; but the coloring throws me off somehow. Maybe if we stuck with the red headers and changed all the yellow to white? I don't know. I don't know much about webdesign or anything, and I don't know what would necessarily be better. But as is, in both of your test examples, there's just too much going on for me. LordAmeth 11:28, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Maybe if it were split into more than just the three boxes? ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  19:00, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Heian-era court officials, bureaucrats
Hello all. Today I began creating a "kuge" category, surprised that no one had previously. I quickly came across Category:Japanese nobility. Is this category sufficient to toss in all the officials, bureaucrats, and ministers, or should we create a separate category for "Classical (Nara and Heian periods) Japanese bureaucrats and court officials?" And if we do create that category, what do we call it? Thanks for your input. LordAmeth 12:36, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe something like Category:Aristocracy in Japan? What do other countries use? ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  22:47, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, there already is a "Japanese nobility" category, so I'm not sure "Aristocracy in Japan" would be any kind of improvement. I was really thinking of something that would separate out those nobles who held positions in government or at court during particular periods in history. LordAmeth 04:15, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Maybe you could separate them according to highest rank and historical period, aggregating both to avoid having a huge number of categories. A category for those whose highest rank was 1-2-3, another for 4-5-6, another for low-ranking people. Cross-categorize by time period, with a classical category ending in 1191, a medieval category for Kamakura-Muromachi, and a Tokugawa category. (Categorize by year of death, I'd say.) So a category like Category:High-ranking nobility of classical Japan would contain the Michinagas, and Category:Middle-ranking nobility of Edo-period Japan would contain Kira Kozuke etc. This scheme would require nine categories: a modest number. Add a category for Kazoku to bring it up to 10. Does that sound workable? Fg2 04:47, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Are there enough articles on all of these minor nobles to sufficiently populate the categories? ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  05:31, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Probably not, so create categories as needed, I'd say. It's good to have a framework that's expandable. The minor guys outnumbered the big guns by a large margin, but the important ones get articles before the others, so I'd guess that the high-ranking nobility categories would get created and populated first. Fg2 06:25, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. Thanks for the suggestions. I'm going to go ahead and create categories for "Kuge of Classical Japan", "Kuge of Feudal Japan" and "Kazoku." That should pretty much cover the issues I was having. At some later point, I suppose, if these categories get too full, we can always shift to another structure. LordAmeth 12:24, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Military History task force
I am trying to establish a "Far East task force," or, if there is enough support, a "Japanese military history task force" sub-section of the Military history WikiProject. If you're already working on military history articles, then all you need to do is offer your support and add your name to a list of task force members. You're already doing the task force's work; we don't ask much more than that. The link to my task force proposal is here: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Military_history. Thank you. LordAmeth 15:57, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Japanese music capitalization discussion
A number of us are talking about capitalization of Japanese song, band, and album titles on the WikiProject Songs page. Please come and register an opinion. Thanks!--Mike Selinker 14:52, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Television criticism in Japan
Would anyone happen to know places to look for critical reviews of Japanese television programs? Google.co.jp isn't turning up anything useful, but I probably don't know the right terms to use. Any help would be appreciated!--Monocrat 17:54, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I fear that the great majority of Japanese television programs don't merit critical reviews, though some do have a sort of sociopathological fascination. Every Sunday, the Japan Times has a column titled "Media Mix" in which one Philip Brasor writes about TV. Try googling for those search terms. -- Hoary 10:17, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The great majority of all television programs, regardless of origin, don't merit critical reviews, though they still exist. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  19:02, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

"Tokio" becomes a featured article in Spanish
The article Tokio has been promoted to featured status. Fg2 03:23, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Comfort women A-class?
This article has been listed as A class, it failed GA for having significant pieces of information ommitted from the article. The article in the lead says the following ethnic break down of the comfort women is were 40 % Japanese, 20 % Koreans, 10 % Chinese, with others making up the remaining 30 %(uncited), yet the article only covers the events surrounding Korean women, that leaves 80% of the article still to be completed. The article is currently has on going edit wars over the information and its presentation. To be A class the article needs to be ''. At the stage where it could at least be considered for featured article status it needs also to Provides a well-written, reasonably clear and complete description of the topic'' This article doesnt meet this criteria and I suggest that it be re-assessed. Gnangarra 09:20, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
 * This has been fixed. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  23:29, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Economy of Tokyo article needed?
After reviewing the Tokyo article for Version 0.5, and reading of the immense size and importance of the Tokyo economy, I was very surprised to see that there is no article called Economy of Tokyo. Many cities with sizeable economies have articles of this sort, such as Economy of Vancouver or Economy of New York City. Would this be a useful article to have for Tokyo as well, or is it inappropriate? Thanks, Walkerma 04:55, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * An article on the economy of Tokyo seems worthwhile. Before embarking on the project, though, it would be worthwhile deciding on the geographic boundaries of the subject. If you look at Talk:Tokyo, you'll find spirited discussion on the topic of just what Tokyo is. An article could cover the 23 special wards (which up to 1943 were together incorporated as the city of Tokyo), or Tokyo-to (the larger geographic unit, related to the city as British Columbia is to Vancouver or as the State of New York is to the City), or the Greater Tokyo area. The decision can guide editors as they search for and sort out information. Fg2 07:08, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


 * For an article about the economy, only the Greater Tokyo Area seems a useful target, because you can't really separate the economies of Tokyo and its surrounding prefectures. --Mkill 17:26, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It does seem worthwhile, but I would it be possible to update broader economic/sociological articles, such as Labor market of Japan, Women in Japan, and Japanese work environment. Some aspects of these are pretty old.--Monocrat 18:03, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Tsu
I've just encountered this gem at Tsu, Mie: "Tsu" is believed by many to be the shortest-pronounceable city name in the world, having more or less the sound of the letter "z" (as opposed to the name of the letter) in English. Aside from the way in which this raises the possibility of city names that cheat because they're not pronouncable (let's imagine one named, say, /qp/ in IPA), this suggests a certain misapperception of the pronunciation of Japanese. Maybe the misapperception is mine. -- Hoary 08:48, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I removed the second half of that as it's incorrect. Does anyone know if there's a list of "short city names" or something like it which could be used to verify the remaining statement? ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  23:28, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't know of such a list. You might check "What links here" from Tsu. The statement was rather odd, wasn't it. Fg2 07:11, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Now rewritten as: As a monomoraic, coda-less monosyllable, "Tsu" is an unusually short city name. (I wonder if some town somewhere has a monomoraic, coda-less, onset-less monosyllabic name.) -- Hoary 16:04, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Train stations
Not directly related to Japan specifically, but there is a proposal underway to eliminate all but the very largest train stations from the English wikipedia. User:Mangoe/Wikipedia is not a timetable and the associated talk page is where the discussion seems to be taking place. There is already a notice at WikiProject Trains in Japan; but, I think that there are people in this project who have contributed to various train station articles, even though they aren't a member of the trains project and do not monitor that page regularly. That, and the fact that trains seem to be disproportionately important to Japanese culture as a whole, is why I mentioned it here. Neier 13:55, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * While I've only skimread User:Mangoe/Wikipedia is not a timetable, I must say that it seems very sensible. I've noticed a lot of articles on stations in Japan; when on occasion I've wondered what on earth the writers would have found to say about one and clicked to take a look, I've usually found that they indeed haven't found anything to say about it. Not that I'm necessarily against articles on stations; indeed, some stations (notably the architecturally magnificent Antwerp station) richly deserve articles and don't get them. And even the dullest station strikes me as more significant than, say, a pokemon. -- Hoary 14:27, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * While I understand the need for article quality, I can't help but think that a stub on a train station is potentially much more useful than one on, well, take Dattebayo below for an example. While I don't look at these articles all that frequently, I do use them occasionally to navigate, or out of curiosity if they're someplace I've been before, or if an unfamiliar station is named in fiction.  To keep them or to delete them is ultimately a judgment call ... I say, when in doubt, err on the side of retaining more knowledge. CES 13:37, 13 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I would have to agree with removing all but the largest train stations. There's no real need, unless it's an historic site somehow. John Smith&#39;s 10:35, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with Hoary that reality is more significant than articles on minor characters that appear in a single episode of an anime series. Also, I agree with Wikipedia's philosophy that a stub is a good first step. It's hard to write a complete article in one sitting, but if there's a stub in place, it's easy for someone to add a fact or two. That's why Wikipedia has a million stubs. For some examples of articles on stations that might strike you as insignificant, see Category:Disused London Underground stations. Fg2 13:15, 16 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually I think that real stations are more significant than medium-level characters that appear all the way through anime series. But I'm not happy about creating stubs: though it is indeed hard to write a complete article in one setting, if you have verifiable facts about a subject that are beyond what's obvious from a rail map (etc.), I think that you should go ahead and present them; and that if you don't, there's no point making the stub. Wikipedia may indeed have a million stubs, and there they sit, gradually accumulating trivia, hazily remembered factoids, etc. (I suppose they're an inevitable result of the love of many editors for pretty little list templates.) Two of the four stations that I use six or so days a week had no article the last time I looked; they're obviously very significant (they serve tens or hundreds of thousands of people), but until I have something verifiable and non-trivial to say on them, I'll stay mum. Meanwhile, those disused London Underground stations are indeed interesting: I clicked the link to British Museum tube station and was enthralled by what I read. I don't deny that somebody, somewhere could write something just as informative and interesting about "my" two unremarked stations; but until they can, each of these stations is happily served by a single short paragraph within a longer article on the rail line. -- Hoary 02:16, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Hoary, when you wrote "gradually accumulating trivia, hazily remembered factoids, etc." you echoed my experience. Sometimes one of those factoids sparks an interest and I turn it into a new paragraph. Sadly, this happens less often than I wish, and it's often hard to delete the trivia. But it is my hope that Wikipedia grows through the process of expansion of stubs.
 * Having started editing Wikipedia when it had 250,000 articles, and seeing that it now has a million more, I think we should concentrate on improving the ones that we have and less on creating new stubs. I still create them when appropriate, but no longer feel that it's my main effort. Fg2 06:43, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Dattebayo
Could a Japanese speaker please take a look at Dattebayo, we keep having anime fanboys who only know of it from Naruto coming in and saying that it means "Believe it". In addition, the article needs some cleanup and expansion anyway. -- Cyde↔Weys 13:09, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think "Believe it" is a particularly good or particularly bad translation. tebayo appears to be a fairly idiosyncratic (read: Naruto-specific) version of the standard teba ... the "yo" makes it a little more emphatic, but I'm not sure I agree with the statement about it making the "speaker sound rough and brusque, and tougher than they really are", certainly not with respect to the standard teba.  Nor would I agree that it has no "semantic meaning" (isn't this phrase a bit redundant anyway?); it certainly has meaning ... one that, unfortunately, is probably lost in translation despite a translator's best efforts (like dialect, these types of idiosyncratic/non-standard usages keep translators up late at night, tearing their hair out).  Either way, this article should be a speedy merge with a Naruto-themed article. CES 13:54, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The article is at heart a dictionary definition. Wikipedia routinely transfers dictionary definitions to Wiktionary. Fg2 23:56, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Two confused people
Could someone have a look at Kume Keiichiro and Kume Kunitake. They are father and son but share the same birth and death dates. Thx MeltBanana  17:46, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Fixed. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  17:56, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Two new articles
If anyone has the time, I put together two new articles for WikiProject Japan

Thanks!


 * Botan Doro
 * Bancho Sarayashiki

MightyAtom 13:31, 18 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I like them. Good job! (^_^) ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  23:47, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Art term suffixes: 絵 and 画
I would like to inquire as to the standard form for those Japanese art terms that end in "-e" and "-ga"; or, if there is no set standard, I'd like to start a discussion to seek a consensus and standard. Upon cursory examination, it seems we have consistency on "-e", as seen in the titles of the articles on yamato-e, e-maki, nishiki-e, and ukiyo-e. However, while there are articles titled nihonga, nanga (art), and bunjinga (which is a redirect to nanga), there is also bijin-ga. I have not really taken the time to scour the 'pedia for other "e" and "ga" terms, so I am not sure how much consistency there is overall.

My personal opinion on the matter is to keep the dashes for "e", and to omit them for "ga". Might seem odd, but that's what I've seen most often, and what I am most comfortable with. As a curatorial intern at the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston, I have come across countless articles referring to both nihonga and nihon-ga, bunjin-ga and bunjinga, but very very few that write yamatoe, onnae, otokoe, or ukiyoe without the dashes. I would love to know what others think. Or, again, if there is already a standard set, please let me know of that. LordAmeth 23:12, 18 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the reason for the "-e" as a suffix is so people know the letter is pronounced. I have no idea why it's used as a prefix. I don't think the "-ga" needs to have a hyphen, and needlessly complicates things. We'd have to start doing things like "Man-ga", which is just absurd. Also, I've more often seen "ukiyoe" than "ukiyo-e". ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  06:59, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi, folks. I am Japanese and was majored in aesthetics. I learned "ga" was used originally for designating Chinese painting, painting produced following Chinese painting norms and techniques, "e" was on the contrary for Japanese painting, yamatoe. At least till the end of Edo period. In Meiji period, some new words were coined like "Nihonga" (former yamatoe) and the terminology above became confused. --Aphaia 08:19, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Aphaia, and thanks for helping with this. I think the question is: should we put a hyphen (-) or no hyphen when we write the words in English? That's a difficult question! Fg2 10:01, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * As with Nihonjoe, I think it is due largely to the pronounciation of Japanese words in English. Vowel ending words that have the -e suffix might be merged, becoming "yama-toe" instead of "yamato-e."  This isn't as likely to happen with -ga, so it doesn't need the dash.  So another vote for keeping the -e, but leaving ga without a dash. MightyAtom 09:18, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi LordAmeth, I couldn't find an article on e-maki; the closest is emakimono. Maybe you had maki-e in mind?
 * Chicago advises against using too many hyphens in romaji. So at least let's not add too many. It seems prudent not to hyphenate words ending in "ga" (especially manga!). It's quite possible that people put the hyphen before "e" for pronunciation. Nowadays they'd probably write "é" (let's avoid that). I'm ambivalent about hyphens before "e" but not strongly opposed. Fg2 10:01, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * from emakimono: "Emakimono (絵巻物, emakimono?), often simply called emaki (絵巻) " Got it? --marsian 11:33, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm happy to hear that most of you agree with me. Manga is a great example; I can't believe I hadn't thought of that. I'm gonna go move "bijin-ga" to "bijinga." LordAmeth 10:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Some findings from standard reference works:
 * ukiyo-e (M-W, OED, EB)
 * yamato-e (OED, EB)
 * emaki (EB)
 * nishiki-e
 * maki-e (OED, EB)
 * Nanga (OED); Nan-ga (EB) (also a reference to Nanga, but not an entry)
 * nihonga (no entries, but EB has the word in two articles)
 * bunjin-ga (no entries, but EB has the word in six articles); bunjinga (no entries, but EB has the word in one article)
 * bijin-ga (nothing found)

Fg2 11:31, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


 * another example. No one writes Ei-ga.  Its just eiga in romaji.  I think there are enough examples to make a decision. MightyAtom 14:19, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Proposal based on above discussion
So, how about this:
 * For words ending in 絵 (e), place a hyphen directly before the "e" in the romanized word (e.g., yamato-e, ukiyo-e). Do not use a hyphen for words ending with 画 (ga) (e.g., manga, bunjinga). Do not use a hyphen for words beginning with 絵 or 画 (e.g. emaki rather than "e-maki").

Is that simple enough? Any ideas for wording changes? ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  22:47, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Sounds good to me. Thanks for organizing it into a proper policy for us to agree to (or to oppose). LordAmeth 01:01, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Agree Fg2 01:28, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, since it's been about a week since any comment, I've made the change here. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  19:57, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Transport in cities/towns
In a separate discussion, someone brought up the point that while our train station articles usually link to the city or town that they are located in, the reverse is not usually true. There are some exceptions: Chuo-ku, Osaka and Izumi-ku, Sendai have their stations listed; but, most cities and towns do not.

Even if adding a list of stations will significantly increase the size of some articles on the smaller towns around the country, I think that it is a good idea to add them, and it is a good idea to come up with some sort of standard way to do it. In various articles, I have seen sections titled Transport, or Transportation, or Train stations. We should pick one (or a different one) and go with it.

What do others think? Neier 14:00, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree, this is a practice that is pretty much standard in the Japanese Wikipedia (airports, trains, long-distance buses, highways, boats, etc. are included under the Transportation (交通) section). For smaller and medium sized cities, both the train lines and the stations are listed, for large cities like Tokyo with a massive amount of stations, the train lines and just the main stations are listed.  For a country like Japan, whose rail network is like its veins and arteries, I think this would be valuable information to include. CES 15:47, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I too agree that transportation is valuable information for an article on a place. A point to address is which article should have the details. Neier mentioned a couple of wards, and the special wards have similar lists. For the biggies like Osaka, the wards seem to be a good place to put the transportation section; the article on the city can have a summary with highways and railroad lines and the most important interchanges and stations, and the airports. For less populous places, the municipality seems appropriate. Not sure whether we need to make a rule or guideline for this, but mentioning it in an internal comment (e.g. "This article on the city lists only the most important stations; if you want to add more information, please consider placing it in the article on the ward instead of the article on the city") might help keep things under control. Likewise, if a place has a separate article, "Transportation in XXX" (as Japan does) we can use the main template to refer to it as we do to History of Japan (from Japan) etc. And add an internal comment to keep the transportation section from getting too far out of line with the rest of the article. As usual, we can feel free to add a balanced look at the big picture. Fg2 10:14, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok. I made a sample edit to Yuzawa, Akita (Chosen because it was A relatively simple, with just six stations; B out of the way, with not much activity; and C all station articles exist, so no red links). Please feel free to make comments here, or edit it directly with improvements. After it settles down, and everyone (train-related, and non-train-related contributors) has a chance to comment, etc, I'll move this discussion to the trains project for the implementation phase. Neier 13:22, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Another way to think about doing it would be to follow the format of the Japanese pages and listing the stations horizontally rather than vertically. It would be more condensed that way and prevent a lot of blank space on the right side of the page. Here's how Yuzawa could be done:

Train stations ordering

 * JR East
 * Ōu Main Line: Innai Station - Yokobori Station - Mitsuseki Station - Kami-Yuzawa Station - Yuzawa Station - Shimo-Yuzawa Station

CES 14:05, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


 * That's a good suggestion. Do you think they should be listed in track order, or in alphabetic order, though?  Listing them in a line like that enables us to convey that extra bit of info (adjacency), which can't be easily done in the vertical format, but we may need to be careful, since the hyphens imply that the stations are next to each other (which is usually the case.  There are always exceptions, as neither district boundaries nor train lines are particularly straight).  It looks like the Japanese side dealt with this by using a comma in those situations (ja:栗原市), and they chose to go in track order, and not by aiueo order.  Neier 23:04, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I think listing them in track order is best. Perhaps we should even put a note to that effect at the beginning fo the section: The stations are listed in track order, from the beginning to the end of the line., or something like that. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  23:42, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions. I think the single-line, track order is a good standard to follow. I'm moving this over to the Trains talk page for now. Neier 02:16, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Translation help please
Talk:List of largest suspension bridges this list is currently a featured list it has used Image:Kurushima-Kaikyo Bridge small.jpg off the japanese wikipedia but there is uncertainty about the copyright status would some here be able to assist with this. thankyou. Gnangarra 12:02, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, the original image has this on it:
 * This image was uploaded before October 2004. This image MAY BE available under the GNU Free Documentation License according to the old Image use policy. But the license is not clear. This image needs source and license information. NOTE: DO NOT COPY THIS IMAGE TO WIKIMEDIA COMMONS.
 * So, it appears the image copyright status is somewhat in question. Perhaps someone who is confident in their Japanese would be willing to post a message on the uploader's talk page and ask him/her to update the copyright status. --··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  23:41, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


 * For an earlier discussion, see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan/Archive/March 2006. Fg2 00:19, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Article assessment?
How does one go about getting their articles assessed? I see the grading scale, but I don't really know how to submit them, or who does the assessing.

Thanks!

MightyAtom 10:22, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Some WikiProjects have an area on the front page where you can post your requests for assessment. This one apparently doesn't. It should be fine to simply place your request here, and I'm sure someone (possibly myself) will get around to it pretty quickly. LordAmeth 17:30, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Also, if you mark it on the talk page with or , it will get automatically added to the list of unassessed articles, and will be eventually assessed. Ther are quite a few articles unassessed (and many more that aren't even marked as part of the project yet), so it will take a little bit of time to assess them. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk  to Nihonjo e  23:12, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of assessment, here's where we are right now:

Anyone interested in assessing articles, please check on the section on the main project page. We have around 1300 articles that need assessing, and there are likely more Japan-related articles out there that haven't even been marked as part of the project. Thanks! ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  22:42, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Yay! I put Yotsuya Kaidan up for Good Article assessment, and it passed! MightyAtom 13:55, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Japanese military history task force
Greetings all. I have finally been successful (along with the much appreciated aid of Nobunaga24 and Kirill Lokshin) in getting a Japanese military history task force created over at WikiProject Military history. Please take a look and join up if you're interested; or simply take a look. どうもありがとうございます. LordAmeth 17:30, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Hotels
Pascal.Tesson left a request on my talk page for help with determining the notability of certain Japanese hotels listed at List of famous hotels, as the list is about to be deleted. Many hotels on the list have links that he's tried to create, but since he can't read Japanese, it is probably limited to whichever hotels have English web sites. There may be others which are notable (I think New Otani in Tokyo probably would make the cut), so he has asked for help in seeing if they are worthy of an article or not, before the list goes away. I am unfamiliar with anything outside of Tōhoku or Tokyo, so if you have any insight to the other areas, please let him know; or, be WP:BOLD and make the articles. I plan on surfing the Japanese side to see what is there, but there may be a better set of criteria. Neier 22:53, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I've archived the Japanese section here so we'll have it to work with after the article gets deleted. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  23:30, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I thank everyone in advance for their help. You might also want to look at the stubs I've created yesterday for Hoshi Ryokan, Hotel New Grand, Sapporo Grand Hotel, Nikko Kanaya Hotel. The information I put there is pretty minimal as I know I only have access to info in english (or french). I think that about a dozen other Japanese hotels should satisfy the WP:HOTELS proposed guideline. Pascal.Tesson 23:44, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I just created a stub for New Otani. I didn't know whether to call it Hotel New Otani or The New Otani, so it's New Otani.--Endroit 00:08, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I updated Nihonjoe's page above with links to the Japanese articles (where they exist) for hotels on the original list, which don't already have articles here. Neier 00:40, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

User editing in Japanese
Hi, I don't speak Japanese, so I have no idea if the edits from IP 220.254.0.14 are good or not. Some of the edits are obvious vandalism, while others are not and others are changes to Japanese words. I would strongly appreciate if someone who had a command of the language would a) drop a note to the IP b) look through some of the non-reverted edits and see if they make any sense. Thanks. JoshuaZ 18:21, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Barnsensu
The WikiProject Japan Barnsensu Award can be awarded to those who have made outstanding additions and/or improvements to Japan-related related articles. To award it, please the following on the editor's talk page, replacing "Type your message here." with your message: ''' ~

This will produce the following: ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  18:48, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussions about the image to use. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  18:48, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Also, recipients of this award will be listed on the Barnsensu recipients page, for anyone who is curious about who has received the award. (^_^) ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk  to Nihonjo e  06:17, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Stub class
I just wanted to let everyone know that I just finished all the articles that were in both Category:Japan stubs and Category:Unassessed Japan-related articles after making sure they were indeed stubs so although I'm sure it'll be good to go over again in the future it doesn't immediately have to be redone. Thygard -  Talk  -  Contribs  -  Email   07:46, 30 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks! ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  17:56, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Help with translations
I'm currently working on a script intended to create short articles on political parties on a variety of wikipedias simultaneously. However, in order for the technique to work I need help with translations to various languages. If you know any of the languages listed at User:Soman/Lang-Help, then please help by filling in the blanks. For example I need help with Japanese. Thanks, --Soman 12:14, 30 July 2006 (UTC) (originally posted on the noticeboard)

WikiMania
While I am probably not going to be attending Wikimania this year, I do live and work in Boston, and so I am wondering if anyone from the project would be interested in meeting up for dinner or the like this coming weekend. Sorry if this isn't quite appropriate for this talk page here. LordAmeth 01:23, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Poll at Talk:Sea of Japan
There is a straw poll on the proposed wording, for Sea of Japan's "Naming" section. Poll ends Aug. 14, 2006, or one week from last vote if that comes sooner. See Talk:Sea of Japan.--Endroit 21:01, 31 July 2006 (UTC)