Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan/Archive/June 2012

Navi
Does "navi" have any special meaning in Japan? There are numerous uses in anime and video games, of the term navi to mean a guide or a computer or a computer guide. Is that just coincidence? ▫  Johnny Mr Nin ja  20:00, 4 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Not a coincidence, since "navi" is short for "navigation". Moscowconnection (talk) 20:25, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * What Moscowconnection wrote. It's just short for "navigation". ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 03:58, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the replies; what I meant was it seems strange that I have only ever heard this term in Westernization of Japanese fiction, like Lain, Mega Man Battle Network, and Beast Wars Neo, and they generally mean something like a "network navigator" or "information navigator". In Legend of Zelda, Navi is small flying guide, just like Beast Wars Neo, and Gokaigers. I know Red Dwarf has used the term "navi-com" to refer to a navigational computer, but that's not really the same thing. It is only in Japanese media I have heard the term in this context. Navi is not a common term in English usage. That is why I was wondering if this is an actual term in Japan, but it seems that it is only used by these writers? ▫  Johnny Mr Nin ja  00:33, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
 * It's just a loanwoard from English. There's nothing special about it.— Ryulong ( 竜龙 ) 02:18, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Japan-Korea relations: split proposal
Currently, Japan-Korea relations covers both "Japan-ROK relations" and "Japan-DPRK relations". ROK(South Korea) and DPRK(North Korea) share pre-division history, but after the division and civil war each government have had a different relationship with Japan. Thus, it seems reasonable to split the article into two. Please join the discussion at Talk:Japan–Korea_relations if you're interested. Thanks, --- PBJT (talk) 19:25, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Why is Kubota so popular?
I am looking at WikiProject Japan/Popular pages, and I am puzzled why is a small company (Kubota) the 7th most popular Japan-scope page on Wikipedia? It beats Sony (22nd). Other than this, the list doesn't seem to have anything particularly unexpected. Any ideas? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 19:38, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * See Cool Japan for explanation (Combine harvester Kyoto JPN 001.jpg) - good question though, 10,000 views a day, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 20:14, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd never seen this list, thanks tremendously Piotrus. Prburley (talk) 21:58, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Kubota is one of the largest farm and heavy equipment manufacturers in the world, so I'm not surprised. It is kinda neat they beat Sony. ··· 日本穣 ? ·  投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 09:09, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Cool Japan does not mention Kubota...? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 16:36, 7 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Are you sure it isn't because some popular fictional character doesn't share that name? 70.24.251.208 (talk) 05:19, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * No, I am sure it is the company. I seen their vehicles, stores and shirts running around in Arkansas where I am at. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 06:57, 10 June 2012 (UTC)


 * In March it was at 130. Then in April it became more popular than Pokemon. ▫  Johnny Mr Nin ja  04:02, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
 * This chart shows how page views have rocketed. Overall interest in this term is steady, according to Insights. There haven't been any major changes in the article. Perhaps some hacker or spammer is abusing this obscure article. Kauffner (talk) 06:34, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Odd indeed. WhatLinksHere doesn't show anything out of the ordinary. By the way, "more popular than Pokemon" is one of the funniest phrases I've heard today. Reminded me of this, in an odd way. Evanh2008 (talk 07:07, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Looking at that Google Insight info, it looks like every year people are shopping for tractors and parts in March/April, especially in Canada (must be popular there, as their population is less than California, but they still had more searches at times than the US). It looks like a heartbeat. The graph is the same for John Deere. Pokemon will rise again. ▫  Johnny Mr Nin ja  08:02, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Update. Page views for Kubota dropped to 11,000 on June 10 to 200 on June 11 and have stayed at that level. Whoever was DOSing the article has apparently decided to move along to something else. Kauffner (talk) 21:57, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Has there be any discussion of an Ainu Wikipedia?
WPJA: Ainu Task Force is now up and running, with dedicated stub templates and a talk-page TF template. Shortly I'll be hitting up a few of the English-language blogs covering Ainu issues, Hokkaido, etc. to try to drum up some interest among non-WP Ainu enthusiasts.

That got me to thinking: Ainu only has a few hundred native speakers, but there are several decent-sized Ainu language programs, both at a couple universities and some cultural centers in Sapporo. I'll have to dig a bit to see what the criteria are to start a new Wiki, but I'm pondering whether some folks could get together (with some Japanese-speaking Wikipedians) and convince a few of the Ainu schools to agree to contribute X number of Ainu-language articles to get a starter wiki up to at least a minimal 100+ article mark?

Has this ever been proposed before? Anyone have any thoughts on the issue? As a historically solely oral language, there probably isn't a whole lot written in Ainu, so much of the sourcing would presumably be drawn from other languages, but still I'd imagine some cultural utility and a certain (albeit small) level of enthusiasm. Granted, there are essentially no Ainu monolinguals, but that hasn't stopped Welsh Wikipedia from growing substantially, and being recognized as a component of the ongoing vitality of the Welsh language. MatthewVanitas (talk) 16:45, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I think that this proposal, while noble, is well out of the scope of this particular project. Ainu is plagued by the fact that there are very few speakers, there is very little knowledge regarding the language, there is no standard way to write the language (katakana vs. Cyrillic vs. Latin alphabet), and I don't think there would be all that much to cover except for the traditional items used by the people and maybe some of their local animals. I still have never been able to find a proper name for the island of Hokkaido in the language.— Ryulong ( 竜龙 ) 19:40, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Varying scripts isn't that much of a problem, some other languages with multiple scripts in current use exist as Wikipedias, where the articles appear under all transcriptions. Similarly, some recently extinct or revived languages also have Wikipedias, which cover mostly traditional items. 70.24.251.208 (talk) 05:05, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I also do not know of a large academic following of the Ainu language that would help in its formation. But, again, this is not something that we should discuss here on the English Wikipedia. This is a suggestion to put forth at the Meta Wiki.— Ryulong ( 竜龙 ) 07:16, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
 * See Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Ainu and Wp/ain for old discussion and test pages. Also of relevance, for those interested, are Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Okinawan (eligible) and Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Classical Japanese 2 (rejected 2008). --  李博杰  &#124; —Talk contribs email 03:12, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * It is surprising to see Classical Japanese rejected as being dead, since it is still in use, much more so than modern Latin. 70.24.251.208 (talk) 07:26, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Both the Latin and Classical Chinese Wikipedias were created before the "must be living language" rule was implemented. Similarly, the Simple English Wikipedia was created before they made the rule on meta that there can only be one edition of a language Wikipedia, which is why a "Simple German Wikipedia" was rejected as well. Moral of the story is to get your chips in early before more rules are laid down. --  李博杰  &#124; —Talk contribs email 14:33, 10 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Have you thought of starting with an Ainu wiktionary? That ought to be easier to set up, and useful for people building the Ainu Wikipedia. 70.24.251.208 (talk) 07:40, 10 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the good info thus far; I hadn't been able to find the MetaPedia discussion, but have now read it over (it petered out in 2006) and have posted a renewed proposal: m:Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Ainu 2. I agree that this isn't so much a WP:JA project at all, but this seemed the most direct place to inquire as to whether there is a precedent and a body of people involved. Now that the Meta page is up, I'll look to go message a number of people who've contributed on specifically Ainu articles on en.wiki in the past. But at some point a high priority will be finding some Japanese-proficient editors to interface with ja.wiki editors to bring them into the Meta discussion. MatthewVanitas (talk) 19:44, 10 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Proposal is up and running, and I've made some tweaks to the layout of the Ainu Incubator to make it clearer (some of which though is gTranslated Japanese, so hopefully its intelligible). I also posted a request at ja.wiki's ja:Wikipedia:Help_for_Non-Japanese_Speakers, so hopefully some folks there can help round up some interested Japanese editors who can help get us in touch with Ainu speakers in Hokkaido and Tokyo. For my part, in the next day or so I'll go message every self-identified Ainu speaker on en.wiki listed in Category:User ain to see if I can drum up some support there. Step by step... MatthewVanitas (talk) 21:25, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Proposed MOS for Religion
There is now a proposed general Manual of Style for Religion and other articles relating to ethoses or belief systems at WikiProject Religion/Manual of style. Any input would be welcome. I personally believe at least one of the reasons why many articles in this field have been as contentious as they have been is because of lack of such guidelines, and would very much welcome any input from others to help come up with some generally acceptable solutions to some of these problems. John Carter (talk) 22:14, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Scout/soldier memorial
There is a Scout/soldier memorial in Kodomonokuni Theme Park. Only have a blog source at the moment. http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/t3cs_28/18467137.html ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 14:31, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Crossposting this, can someone up there verify?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 15:58, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Here is the intro on the Kodomonokuni site. Michitaro (talk) 02:33, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you!--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 13:33, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

JSTOR
Anyone huniversity heducated at one of these institutions can now get JSTOR, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 21:59, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Hatoful Boyfriend translation help
Hey, a while back, I created the Hatoful Boyfriend article. Just recently I came across these three articles regarding it. They seem to be discussing the creation of a four panel comic strip based on the game, from what I can tell. But some clarification and elaboration on what these articles say would be greatly appreciated. Silver seren C 09:26, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Oh, and a translation of this would also be appreciated. Silver seren C 09:28, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

No one can help? Silver seren C 09:03, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
 * It looks interesting, but surely there have been English language entries on the game as the publisher has done an English language version?— Ryulong ( 竜龙 ) 19:15, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, of course there are, i've already got them in the article. But I would certainly like to add more, especially since these Japanese sources seem to have information that wasn't available in the English ones (like about that comic strip). Can you help with translating them? As long as I can understand the gist and important info in them, then I can use them. At least I wouldn't have to worry about copyvios since I don't have a way of actually copying the text. :P Silver  seren C 00:58, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid I can't be of much help right now, sorry.— Ryulong ( 竜龙 ) 01:13, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Can anyone else help? Silver seren C 20:41, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, I'm still a basic learner and if I stray too far from irimoya-zukuri and hekiga then I'm on pretty shakey ground; in the past I've had luck here fishing for translation help by having a first stab myself and then asking a couple of specific queries where I was really unsure; there's also the language reference desk? Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 12:38, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Policy on Names - Question
I was under the impression that after a pre-Meiji historical figure was introduced in an article (surname-personal name), it was common to thereafter use the personal name throughout the article (as in Nobunaga, Ieyasu, etc.). I looked at the MOS at WP:JTITLE, and it offers no help in this area. Can someone point out the appropriate MOS policy? Thanks. Boneyard90 (talk) 21:07, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * It's more common to use the surname throughout the article except in cases where that would be unclear (e.g., if there were two people with "Oda" as a surname being discussed). ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 07:11, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I guess I was under a false impression. Maybe "Nobunaga" seems to have more kick than "Oda".Boneyard90 (talk) 12:30, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Per WP:JTITLE "Names of historical figures [...]: Use name most commonly used in academic journals and texts." In the academic writing I'm familiar with, and I confirmed this with several academic journals/texts this morning, the full name is used in the first instance, and given name in subsequent use. E.g., Ashikaga Takauji in the first instance, and Takauji in subsequent use. In my opinion, WP:NAMES is of no help at all, as pre-Meiji period names don't fit into the surname/forename/patronymic paradigm used there. Example from Monumenta Nipponica, v. 62, no. 3, autumn 2007. Verschuer, Charlotte von. Ashikaga Yoshimitsu's Foreign Policy 1398 to 1408 A.D.: A Translation from Zenrin Kokuhōki, the Cambridge Manuscript.
 * "'ASHIKAGA Yoshimitsu 足利 義満 (1358–1408), third shogun of the Muromachi bakufu, initiated an era of official trade relations with the Chinese Ming court and the Korean Choson court that would last for more than one hundred fifty years. Yoshimitsu held the position of shogun from 1368 to 1394, and after retiring from formal office, continued to exercise power until his death in 1408. Yet for the first three decades of his rule [...].'" Would love to hear what others have to say on this. :) Prburley (talk) 16:19, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Cambridge History of Japan I: Kakinomoto no Hitomaro → Hitomaro, Soga no Umako → Umako, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 21:53, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
 * And, I guess more immediately relevant to your query, vol. IV: Nobunaga, Hideyoshi, Ieyasu etc, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 22:04, 20 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Cool. A GAR-editor was concerned, and after I started to make changes, opined that it ultimately it didn't matter, as it wasn't a GA-policy. I'm going to back through the article and check for consistency. He thought it might be of more concern at the FA-level, when an article is more closely scrutinized for its adherence to Wiki-policy.Boneyard90 (talk) 15:07, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Congratulations on your fourth pip! Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 12:49, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Should a clarification to this effect be made in WP:NAMES? There's a blurb on Thai names. Prburley (talk) 15:40, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Looks like any wording would have to be agreed here first - some pretty different positions upheld thus far, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 12:49, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks Mac! And I agree, we'd need some consensus. I've been going on surname + personal name at the start of sections; for minor historical figures, surname only; for the best-known names of major figures, personal name after s+pn introduction (Ieyasu, Nobunaga); personal names in cases when there's more than one of the same surname (father & son, brothers in the same article, etc.). Thoughts? Boneyard90 (talk) 14:16, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I thought maybe book prefaces, where there's typically the section "names follow the Japanese order, surname first...", might be a good place to look for example guidelines, but I haven't immediately found one which discusses/explains which name is generally used, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 17:24, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

New page: Japanese musical scales
I noted we have many disparate articles on Japanese scales, primarily pentatonic, and most of which need a lot of work. But we had no page for them overall, and thus no easy way to list them as "Japanese" in Template:Scales. Accordingly, I created Japanese musical scales, but it could really use some work from someone more versed in Japanese music than I. As one interested in the Akebono scale, it's been frustrating to see the article unreferenced, and I'm unable to find good refs for it online. I'm also cross-posting this post in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music theory. MatthewVanitas (talk) 22:05, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Perth requested-move notification
A requested move survey was started at Talk:Perth_(disambiguation), which proposes to move:
 * Perth → Perth, Western Australia
 * Perth, Scotland → Perth, Perthshire
 * Perth (disambiguation) → Perth

Background: There was a previous requested-move survey which ran from late May to mid June. There was a great deal of controversy surrounding the closure and subsequent events, which involved a number of reverts and re-reverts which are the subject of an ongoing arbitration case. There was a move review process, which was closed with a finding that the original requested-move closure was endorsed; however, the move review process is relatively new and untried. — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 03:17, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Requested move: Decapitalize the word "war" in non-proper noun titles
Concerning the following articles: Sino-Xiongnu War, Gojoseon–Han War, Goguryeo–Wei War, Goguryeo–Sui War, Goguryeo–Tang War, Silla–Tang War, Ming–Kotte War, Ming–Hồ War, Mongol–Jin War, Gaya–Silla War, Goguryeo–Yamato War, Goryeo–Khitan War.

The move request is at .--Cold Season (talk) 02:24, 28 June 2012 (UTC)