Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan/Archive/May 2006

We need a barnstar
The Anime & Manga Project now has one, so I thought we should create one for outstanding work on Japan-related articles. Mitsukai made the one A&MP uses (it's over to the right there). Ideas? --日本穣 Nihonjoe


 * The Tomoe? struggle 19:24, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, I like that one. (^_^) This one is my favorite. It really jumps out. Anyone have a good way of making one like this that's a free image? --日本穣 Nihonjoe 23:40, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I made two versions that could be used for a barnstar. They were originally traced from the image Nihonjoe mentioned, so I'm just hoping they're okay copyright-wise. -- Tangot a ngo 06:12, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I think I like the circle one the best. What does everyone else think? --日本穣 Nihonjoe 15:49, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * That tomoe is r0xors. Do I get a free one for suggesting it?struggle 14:31, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I just checked the site, and the main pages says, "'Japanese Free Clip Art' provides copyright-free clip art images related to Japan.". The About the Site page confirms that all of the images, except for those on this page and those designed for the site itself, are copyright free. --日本穣 Nihonjoe 16:00, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

There are some other nice ones here and here. --日本穣 Nihonjoe 16:03, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * There are some possible alternates, too. Cranes, hollyhock, another hollyhock, genetian, a whole page of other posibilities (here, and here, too).  --日本穣 Nihonjoe 16:11, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone else have any suggestions or posibilities? If not, I think we can go to a poll/vote/opinion request on which everyo0ne prefers the most. ˑˑˑ 日 本  穣  Talk to  Nihonjo  ε  23:12, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Voting
Please indicate your support (or not) of the "Barn Tomoe" to be used as a "barnstar" for Japan-related articles.

Support Oppose
 * 1) ˑˑˑ 日  本  穣  Talk to  Nihonjo  ε  16:46, 10 May 2006 (UTC) Dropping vote since other options are being presented. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk  to Nihonjo e  20:20, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * 2) 賛成賛成賛成賛成struggle 17:16, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
 * For anyone who can't read that, it says "Sansei", or "approval". (^_^) ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo ε  17:48, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
 * support, but I think the anime/manga one is way cuter. Exploding Boy 06:00, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) Support . LordAmeth 16:26, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
 * 2) Support. Will give anyone who wants to improve the image the original AI file. -- Tangot a ngo 08:25, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * 3) み使い Mitsukai 13:42, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I really like this one, a Japanese fan with a hinomaru on it. It's recognizably Japanese, simple, identifiable. The kamon above is only recognizably Japanese to some people (and the more I look at it the more I think it looks slightly menacing). Here's a copy of it. Exploding Boy 04:46, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) Oppose. Actually, I've changed my mind.  It's nice, but just too bland, and not immediately recognizable as Japanese.  I had a very brief look at the page linked above and there are some much nicer images.  I don't mind something simple and/or stylized, but maybe not this.  Exploding Boy 06:06, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Please point us to some examples you'd like better. I'm open to other options. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  03:36, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) Support Sensu instead. -- Tangot a ngo 12:38, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose Barn Tomoe. When I look at that, I can't stop thinking of the flag of the Isle of Man. I prefer the Barn Sensu, but I'm still not 100% pleased with it. How about if the hinomaru were a tad smaller? --Tachikoma 18:07, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Comments
 * 1) Ooh. Kirei. I've changed my mind. I'm in support of the sensu barnstar. LordAmeth 12:35, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * 2) [[Image:Barn-Ogi-Sensu.png|thumb|100px|right|Sensu Barnstar, vector version]]I've made a vector version of the Sensu as per last time, so any proposed modifcations (colour, shape, size, etc.) are welcome. Also, will provide AI/SVG file to anyone who wants to improve it. -- Tangot a ngo 13:26, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Well I don't know what a vector version is, but how about if we make the hinomaru red? Exploding Boy 17:11, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) Actually, in the current form, making the hinomaru red would nearly complete the Sauron illusion (Or, Rambaldi, for any fans of Alias out there), more than anything else. Maybe if the pre-WWII rays were added, it would look more Japanese; but, the fan just doesn't quite do it for me.  I like the tomoe better.  Neier 22:25, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * 2) Well, I'm still with the tomoe. Explicit simplicity. The sensu kinda reminds me more of sumo...anyone seen that one old dude in the stands at every sumo tournament that waves that hi-no-maru sensu...can't get...out of...mind. struggle 00:58, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with the sensu as it is actually. I like it in B&W.  Exploding Boy 02:07, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * [[Image:Barn-Ogi-Sensu-Red-Hinomaru.png|thumb|100px|right|Sensu Barnstar, red hinomaru version]]In case anybody's interested, here's a red hinomaru version per Exploding Boy's previous suggestion -- Tangot a ngo 08:10, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * ooh I like that one too. Exploding Boy 16:22, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I like the red one as well. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  22:34, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I prefer the black and white. LordAmeth 22:43, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

So... What are we voting on now? Exploding Boy 03:37, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't know that we're actually voting anymore since other options have been presented now. Doesanyone else have any proposals for WikiProject Japan barnstar? ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  20:20, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

The sensu looks much better with the aka hinomaru. A chrysanthimum (sp), Fuji, they are all other good choices. I opt for Byodoin!

How about making the sensu look as red as the background and the white in the middle or white in the background and the red in the middle? user:englishfun

Hi everyone; is the voting still on? I love the circle tomoe. Z Wylld 15:32, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Image text translation request
I'm not too good with early Meiji Japanese, and it would be nice to have a transcription and translation of this image. Can anyone here do that? --日本穣 Nihonjoe 15:46, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Here's my transcription: ○勅令

朕標準時ニ関スル件ヲ裁可シ茲ニ之ヲ公布セシム

御名　御璽

明治二十八年十二月二十七日

内閣総理大臣　侯爵　伊藤博文

文部大臣　侯爵　西園寺公望

勅令第百六十七號

The rest is from http://www.geocities.jp/nakanolib/rei/rm28-167.htm

第一条　帝国従来ノ標準時ハ自今之ヲ中央標準時ト称ス

第二条　東経百二十度ノ子午線ノ時ヲ以テ台湾及澎湖列島並ニ八重山及宮古列島ノ標準時ト定メ之ヲ西部標準時ト称ス

第三条　本令ハ明治二十九年一月一日ヨリ施行ス -- Tangot a ngo 16:15, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Translation: 勅令 (Law enforced directly by the Emperor) / I (朕 = Emperor) approve this issue concerning standard time and I make this new act known / 御名 (the Emperor's name?) 御璽 (the Emperor's seal?) / Meiji 28 December 27th / Prime Minister Prince Ito Hirobumi / Minister of Education and Culture Prince Saionji Kinmochi / 勅令 No. 167 / 1. The standard time for the empire will henceforth be known as the 中央標準時 (= central standard time). / 2. The standard times for Taiwan and the Pescadores Islands, along with the Yayeyama and Miyako islands will be set at 120 degrees east and this shall be named the 西部標準時 (= western standard time) / 3. This act shall come into force on January 1, Meiji 29. Please feel free to change the wording. Does anyone what "御名　御璽" actually means? -- Tangot a ngo 16:30, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * It seems to me that the 御名 is for the person (representative of the emperor) that will stamp this document with the emperor's seal (御璽). Excellent translation. I love all the katakana in meiji Japanese. However, I would not translate koshaku (侯爵) as "Prince" but more as the second tier of the 5- tier public servant system (爵位). Hirofumi Ito loved nyotaimori, baby!!!!struggle 13:42, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * 御名御璽 looks like this. 御名, literally meaning the "great name", refers to the signiture of the Emperor. 御璽 is the great seal of the Emperor. Here, westerners might as well write "Signed and Sealed, Mutsuhito," but it is not the Japanese way since we think it impertinent to call or write his Majesty's name (like Mutsuhito, Hirohito, Akihito, etc.)
 * 侯爵 is usually translated as marquis.--Dwy 13:13, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Fujiwara no Teika
I'd appreciate some help on Fujiwara no Teika. If someone else could help me with the actual Japanese (that has been discussed on the PR, and is being discussed in the FAC), that'd be really useful, 'cause most of the problems appear to stem from how I include the originals. Votes and criticism would also be good. --maru  (talk)  contribs 07:11, 7 May 2006 (UTC)


 * An accurate transcription (or at least a breakdown by line) of this is probably the most important thing right now. --maru  (talk)  contribs 07:33, 7 May 2006 (UTC)


 * As I'm the one who's been bullying you, given in to my ignorance of C12 japanese and the modernisation of it and just added some bits I found via google. Really needs a non-ignoramus though, especially as one of the examples in the article seems to be out of order and only *collected* by him, not written. --zippedmartin 10:52, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The erroneous one you are referring to is the one beginning "Takasago no", right? I'm pretty sure that your source is wrong as far as attribution goes. As my referencing indicates, I got it from his Shoji-era sequence of 100 original poems- not one of his collections of other people's poems like the Hyakunin isshu, and it's unlikely Brower screwed up that spectacularly. --maru  (talk)  contribs 13:51, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, sorry, didn't quite comment that clearly enough - that was all I'd found, not the actual poem. Ad hoc method of hurridly googling a couple of lines of modern japanese guessed from the transcription did okay for the others though. Never have found that one through をのへ though, darn historical kana usage. --zippedmartin 19:10, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Category:Samurai
Category:Samurai is getting awfully large, and I wonder if there's any way to subdivide it and clean it up. I was tempted to pluck out some of the major clans, such as Minamoto, Taira, and Tokugawa, but that could get quite messy as we try to decide which clans are major enough to warrant subcategories. Also, it might be arguably less useful to the user who doesn't know as much about the subject. (Though I don't know how useful a giant unsorted list is...) Any suggestions would be most welcome.

Also, though on the Category:Shoguns page, it is listed as being a sub-cat of Samurai, on the Category:Samurai page, "Shoguns" doesn't appear. Any ideas? Thanks. LordAmeth 11:29, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
 * It's there... Click Next 200 a couple of times. Eventually the S's come up, both for subcategories and for pages. Fg2 11:51, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
 * And yes, it is mighty crowded! Some organizational principles: period, century, decade (of birth or death?); region, province, han (e.g. Category:Samurai of Chōshū Han); lineage (e.g. Seiwa Genji); rank or some abbreviated version of it (e.g. daimyo, not daimyo); allegience (hatamoto, hanshi, ronin). However, certainly we don't have enough information on the 500 in the category... Can anyone find anything useful in this? Fg2 11:57, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * How about just breaking the samurai into where they come from? For instance, put some people into Miyazaki Prefecture. Englishfun (talk)
 * Because that wouldn't be useful. I think that far more often than not, people would have no idea which prefecture/province category to look for a given samurai. I am still thinking that one of these days I'll undertake the project of dividing it up by clans. LordAmeth 03:08, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Japanese tea ceremony
I think this article is nearly ready for FAC nomination. Please look it over and make suggestions/improvements.

One are that might be problematic is the lack of citations/references. Any suggestions?

Exploding Boy 06:04, 11 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I'll comment on the article's discussion page. Fg2 07:26, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Bunjinga/Nanga
Sorry all. I have another item for thought. There is currently no article on the topic of bunjinga (文人画, literati painting), which as far as I am aware is fully synonymous with nanga (南画, Southern school painting). Does anyone have any input on just how synonymous these two terms are, and whether the article (which I'm planning to start), should be located at bunjinga or at nanga (art). (Nanga is apparently the name of an African musical instrument.) Arigatou. LordAmeth 16:29, 11 May 2006 (UTC)


 * That sounds good to me. The Japanese article is located at ja:南画, and it has a sentence stating, "文人画ともいう. " (which means, "Also called bunjinga.") ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  18:44, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Battle of Okinawa
IMO, the Battle of Okinawa was the most important Battle of WWII's Pacific Theater, and certainly a battle with huge ramifications for the US and Japan. Sadly, it's a very sparsely written article. Operation Ten-Go, an operation launched in respomse to this battle, already has a page several times longer than the Okinawa page (a very good page, in fact). I hope that this wonderful project can turn an eye towards helping to improve this vital page. 71.104.218.159

Japanese clock
(Crossposted) I have recently expanded Japanese clock from an uninformative stub. Some checking and technical assistance would be appreciated. Technical vocabulary for the old Japanese temporal hours would be nice, as would appropriate Japanese language terminology about traditional pre-Westernization clocks and timekeeping, from someone who (unlike myself) has the ability to type in Japanese. Checking to see if the article has a counterpart on ja: would be good also, and if anyone has access to appropriate pictures, they too would help a lot. Thanks. &mdash; Smerdis of Tlön 23:01, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it's Wadokei (和時計). I've updated the article. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  03:03, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks! Smerdis of Tlön 13:30, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Conflict on Korean influence in early Japan
An edit war has been brewing for a short while now on the pages for Asuka period, Nara period, Yamato period, and I think perhaps one or two other articles over the issue of the extent of Korean influence on Japan at this time. As an admin, I feel it is more or less my responsibility to step in and do something, but I am honestly not that well versed in the period, and am not sure which side to take. More to the point, I feel like whatever I say will not be construed as playing referee or mediator and will instead be seen as butting-in or taking sides. I am posting here, therefore, to encourage the beginning of a discussion on the subject, rather than just an edit war, and hopefully involving a greater number of voices, and with any luck a greater number of voices that come from level heads. Thank you. LordAmeth 18:14, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * From what my Japanese history classes taught me, Korean metal-workers came into Japan during the three aforementioned periods, they themselves receiving the technology from China. There was a much heavier technological influence, with less cultural influence. Of course, this is the way Japanese culture is, they discard foreign cultural influence while absorbing technology and methods. Meiji, Showa, Yayoi, same thing. struggle 18:53, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Mukade
What should be done with the article mukade? The article claims that it is "a species of poisonous centipede native to Japan which is characterised by a black body and bright orange, yellow or red legs". I raised a question at the Science reference desk asking if anyone could provide a genus/species for the critter, but it does not appear that there is any species of centipede that is unique to Japan and fits the description given. Furthermore, the worde mukade is simply the Japanese word for centipede, and the Japanese mukade article links back to our general page on centipedes.

I stumbled across one photo with genus/species information, which seems to imply that what English-speakers are calling mukade are in fact known as Chinese red heads in English:.

So, it seems that mukade is an inaccurate article. However, I have heard expats in Japan talk at length about mukade, by which they mean giant Japanese centipedes. My gut says to move mukade to Chinese red head and leave the redirect, but I can't be certain that there aren't other Japanese centipede species that uninformed Westerners also dub mukade. It's a common phenomenon for English speakers to adopt foreign terms for things that don't exist in their home culture; I'm not faulting anyone for doing it. But Wikipedia's not a dictionary, so it seems best to move mukade to the correct scientific name. Any comments? — BrianSmithson 12:53, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I take that back. I've done a bit more forum diving, and it appears that expat Westerners refer to any Japanese centipede as mukade. This confirms my theory that they are simply adopting a foreign word for something they are unfamiliar with. So, with this in mind, I think mukade should either be retooled and moved to centipedes in Japan, or it should redirect to centipede. — BrianSmithson 14:23, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd say redirect it to centipede. A Centipedes in Japan article is definitely useful, but mukade isn't limited to Japanese centipedes (although many Japanese will tell you that they think all mukade are poisonous) and that would just serve as more misinformation. I doubt any Westerner was confused, it was probably just some kid who wanted to put another Japanese word into the Wiki articlespace.  freshgavin ΓΛĿЌ  06:48, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I've done as you suggest. Thanks for the input. — BrianSmithson 13:10, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Most common centriped here in Japan mainland is Scolopendra subspinipes japonica or S. subspinipes mutilans. However, generally the name mukade encompasses all centripeds except Scutigeromorpha which are geji. Isorhiza 16:30, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Suggestion. Copy the concept of the tanuki/raccoon dog pages.  Leave the mythical stuff under mukade, and send the scientific stuff to the Chinese red head or centipedes in Japan article(s).--み使い Mitsukai 15:49, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

That 'nihongo' template
Do people really need to be encouraged to use the template for each and every bit of japanese in an article? As a little change from Takamagahara (高天原) to Takamagahara (高天原) changes the generated code from: To:

The efficiency lover in me finds such minor changes somewhat offensive. Gzip mitigates the actual transfer cost, but it just seems terribly redundant - if people aren't clicking the little question mark after the first lot of funny squiggles they're not going to be doing it after the tenth. Though xml:lang="ja" is potentially useful, browsers don't do much with it at the moment. It's yet another example of 'japanese has to be special', too, no other language needs little question marks after each word to explain the phonology etc. --zippedmartin 15:01, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * That could definitely be improved, and as a programmer I'm a little bit of an efficiency freak myself. All of those style settings should be left for skins to handle, and most of them are redundant defaults anyways.  freshgavin ΓΛĿЌ 11:37, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure the template is at all useful anyway, and it has the major drawback of making every Japanese word look like a question. Exploding Boy 15:51, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Also annoying - there are times when dumb transcription is more confusing than useful for readers... --zippedmartin 12:29, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I propose getting rid of the question mark and following a more standarised format. See below:
 * Ah! My Goddess! (Japanese: ああっ女神さまっ - Aa! Megami-sama!)
 * -- Cat out 22:21, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


 * How about this?
 * ( ? )
 * It seems to work, and uses far fewer characters to do so. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  23:07, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

From a reader: I just noticed that more and more Japanese words get bold question mark links behind them. I feel that I must stress that I think that even one instance of these special links inside the text is ugly and obtrusive. Lots and lots of them... I really can't understand why someone would want that. It is horrible to see.

I can imagine that someone might feel the need to point out to less experienced readers that foreign scripts may need installing additional fonts. But I think that a small link with words like "help for the display of Japanese words" at the top of the page (preferably a link that would disappear in the print version) would be much better. Personally I would choose to insert only a language tag. Even tough currently browsers don't do much with that tag, there is no doubt that this will change in the future, and then all that extra code would be superfluous (and have been a wast of time) anyway. --Kornelis 09:15, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * BTW if extra markup of Japanese words (either question marks other symbols, or prefixes with "warning: Japanese") will remain, I would like a feature in preferences to be able to hide this extra markup (like hiding the edit links or changing the broken link appearance). --Kornelis 09:23, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * What if we used a template similar to IndicText on pages with a lot or as an alternative solution? --Squilibob 14:24, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I've suggested this before, and think it's a much, much better solution. Exploding Boy 15:11, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Osaka
I'm surprised to learn there's a WikiProject Japan... considering the poor state of many articles related to Japan. Take the articlce on Osaka, Japan's second largest city for example. I've been trying to improve it gradually (and more than anything not allow it to become worse), but there's still so much stuff missing, not least regarding it's history. Also notice all the red links... -- Mackan 01:58, 22 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the real problem is getting the necessary references. For instance, the Imperial anthologies of waka are indisputably important if not utterly vital to any articles on Japanese poetry (and thus vital to coverage of Japan), but finding any works in English which treat of them even more than superficially is rather difficult. Just getting the scant information with which I started the rather shallow articles listed in Imperial anthology was bloody difficult, and let's not even talk about finding English sources for Fujiwara no Teika! (And besides purely lack of sources, you've got language, script, naming, network effects and sorts of other problems). --maru   (talk)  contribs 05:02, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia CD
You might have noticed the box with the text "Japan is either included in Wikipedia CD Selection or is a candidate for inclusion in the next version (project page at WPCD Selection). Please do not leave the article in a messy or stubbed state, and if possible stick to GFDL images but if you can expand or improve it further, please do so!" on the talk page of Japan, or a similar one on some other pages. Here is a list of Japan-related articles on the alphabetical listing or with the above message. I've probably missed more than I found, so please add to the list. Fg2 10:17, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Koi
 * Japan
 * Sakurajima
 * Suikinkutsu
 * Tokyo

Suggestions
Be free to put any suggestions below here...

I think we should fix the prefectures in Japan. User:Englishfun (talk)

The incredibly annoying WikiProject Japan template
Can somebody explain to me what on earth the template is trying to accomplish? Isn't this what Category:Japan is for? Jpatokal 11:05, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe that its purpose is to inform editors that of the existence of the wikiproject and the project's scope. It may encourage others to collaborate on and join the project. --Squilibob 11:18, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * You believe so? Does anybody know? Jpatokal 15:39, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I assume Jpatokal means Category:WikiProject Japan, rather than Category:Japan. -- Rick Block (talk) 14:43, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * You assume incorrectly. Any article under Category:Japan falls under the scope of the project, no? So isn't this all terribly redundant? Jpatokal 15:39, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Its purpose is the same as any other WikiProject notice: To let others who may be interested know that a project exists to which they may wish to contribute. WikiProjects are separate from the main article space, so having an article marked as part of WIkiProject Japan is not redundant with Category:Japan (which is part of the main article space on WP). ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  20:24, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Japanese robotics article
Japanese robotics has expanded significantly since it was made a collaboration of the week, but is still very imcomplete. Also, it appears to be up for merging into the general robotics article. You can vote regarding the merger on the Talk:Robot page.

George100 23:08, 29 May 2006 (UTC)