Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan/Archive/November 2007

Speaking of copyright
With many prefectural symbols having been deleted, copyright is on our minds. Today, a user on Commons proposed deleting several of my photos of statues in Japan based on Japanese copyright law. The discussion is here. If the interpretation of the law prevails, it could affect photos of all modern-day statues unless they are permanently on display on public land. So, modern statues located in temples, shrines, and other non-public lands might be deleted. Even older statues could be removed unless one can provide the name of the artist who made the statue, or show that it's old enough to meet some criterion. It can also pertain to photographs of buildings. This has the potential to affect a lot of articles. Fg2 01:51, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure about this, but I believe the general stance is that en.wikipedia follows US and UK copyright laws but not necessarily copyright laws of other countries (there's some discussion of this at Copyrights) while other language wikipedias generally follow the obvious country's laws (so ja.wikipedia would be expected to follow Japanese laws). I'm also not sure how this might affect contributors in a particular country (it kind of seems like a contributor in Japan would want to follow Japanese laws regardless of to which  wikipedia they're contributing).  -- Rick Block (talk) 02:28, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Good point, Rick: I would not want to run afoul of the law of Japan. The discussion about deletion includes a link to the Japanese law. The text of the law is in English. I've asked a couple of questions about it in the deletion discussion. So far, the question is about the word "reproduce": does it mean to copy the statue (as sculptors frequently copy their own works for their own benefit) or is the word broad enough to include photography? Not being a lawyer, I don't know. Fg2 04:43, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia follows the laws of the United States as that's where its servers are (somewhere in Florida...forget exactly where). US copyright law stipulates that photos of statues do not fall under the same copyright protection as the original work. Therefore, they can be released on Commons under GFDL or CC or PD. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 06:15, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * A photograph is the work of the author and in no way infringes on the copyrights of the original author of the work photographed. A somewhat controversial but legally standing precedent (I'm talking about UK copyright law here) in this is the case of the sneak photo of the setting for Oasis' album cover for Be Here Now. In a nutshell: Oasis (or rather, their designer) spent quite some effort to put that scene up, and a journalist secretly took a snapshot of it while interviewing them and leaked it to the media. Oasis sued: "the setting is our work, therefore the photo infringes on our copyrights. Also, we gave no permision for photographs to be taken." The verdict was that the photo is in copyrighted ownership of whoever took it - Oasis lost. TomorrowTime 06:56, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice. More is definitely welcome. I'll link the Commons deletion discussion to this talk page. Fg2 11:55, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I am the user who started the discussion
Hello, Unfortunately Commons follows different rules than Wikipedia. The most relevant one is that WikiCommons does not accept "fair use" images. All images uploaded in Commons must be free from ANY limitations, including the "non-commercial use only", which is accepted by several local wikipedias. Therefore the discussion should follow the (partly self-imposed) rules of Commons, not those of the local Wikipedia (including the en.Wikipedia).

When they differ too much, a solution would be uploading the images in the local wikipedia alone, if Commons should have, as it often has (as in our case), stricter rules than Wikipedias have.

Furthermore, what Fg2 fears might happen, is what actually is happening already. I had to remove hundreds of images about modern artists since Italy (my country) does not allow Freedom of panorama. Japan does, but only for non-commercial uses, whereas Commons wants all images to be available for commercial uses as well. The problem, here, is not so much with the Japanes law, but with the Wikimedia foundation's decision.

Like it or not, if these are the rules, we only have two options: changing them, or respecting them. The third one, looking for loophooles, has been undertaken before several times, but helas to no avail at all.

Last but not least: temples and shrines are public places, not private ones. The real distinction here rests solely on the fact that no images of any work of art produced by an artist who has been dead for less than 70 years, or who is alive, may be uploaded on WikiCommons, unless s/he or his/her estate gave a permission to do so. For works of art on public and permanent display, "Freedom of panorama" may be used to be exhempted from this rule, but with the limitation, in our case, of the "non-commercial use only". (Freedom of panorama exhemptions vary from country to country). --G.dallorto 15:52, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Rather than deleting the images, shouldn't the bot be transferring them into the en: and other wikipedias which are allowed to use them, to avoid fouling up the article space that readers encounter? If the images are valid for the en: wikipedia, the only problem is that the images happen to be uploaded to commons, right? Neier 22:53, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I am a sysop on the Commons, so if allowed, I can try and help get the images on en.wikipedia. I just need a list. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 01:38, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * This seems like a potential problem. Does Commons respect the most strict of any country's laws, or only the most strict laws as they apply to a particular work/artist?  For example, if a Japanese artist's work is displayed in Germany and photographed by an American and the image is on Commons so can be picked up by it.wikipedia, whose laws apply?  It sounds like Commons is saying "we must adhere to the most strict".  If so, it also sounds like anything other than a wholely original work of art (containing no representation of anything that anyone anywhere in the world might consider to be copyrightable) is prohibited.  This would mean no photographs of any buildings, no photographs of any statues, etc.  Perhaps this is the intent, but it seems extremely restrictive. -- Rick Block (talk) 03:56, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Hallo, as you understood perfectly, the problem is general, and does not apply to the current "test case" alone. The general rule is that what you call "the strictest law" applies always and worldwide, i.e. copyright covers always ANY work of art, from its creation until 70 years after the author died. However, some restrictions to the right of the author may be issued by law, one of such limitations being the "freedom of panorama", which applies only within those countries having a law to grant it (Japan has... but only for non-commercial uses). This means in its turn, to answer the question, that the publication of an image uploaded in ANY of the Wikipedia projects (including this very en:Wikipedia) may be used only where and if a similar law exists in the country where the downloader wants to use it. This is clearly stated in the FOP template in Commons (see it for instance here --> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Alberto_Giacometti ). I quote: "The copyrighted object and its context may not be modified or used for derivative works, the work shown may not be reproduced. This picture can be used legally only in countries with a respective legal exception". Unquote. In the case proposed in the question the answer is: it:Wikipedia might not use that picture, since Italy has no "freedom of panorama" law (yet :-) ). Helas.
 * In our case all this means, for instance, that even if the pictures in the test-case could legally stay in WikiCommons (which I still doubt, since Commons is a COMMERCIAL site, not a non-commercial one, yes it is), they may not, for instamce, be published on paper in the Usa, since in the Usa "Freedom of panorama" does not cover statues and paintings: only buildings (whereas in the UK it does). (However, the "fair use" could be invoked in this case, but "fair use" has its limitation as well. In our case, anyway, Commons does not accept any uploads under the "fair use" clause, so we don't need to discuss about the issue here).
 * Moving to en:Wikipedia the images would not therefore solve the problem, it would merely move it. In fact, Wikipedia's servers are located in the Usa, whose law apply, and as stated Usa have a FOP law which is stricter than the Japanese one, since it does not cover statues. All that could be done would be moving one or two pictures to be used, under the "fair use" clause, to illustrate the entry concerning the sculptor, if any.
 * The only solution is therefore assessing what the Japanese law says. The uploader says that in his opinion the "reproduction for commercial use" is forbidden not, as usual, referring to pictures and paintings and drawings, but only to actual moulds and duplications of the actual statue in marble or bronze.
 * I think this interpretation is wrong: in the case of a picture in a public display, shooting a picture of it and publishng it would correspond to duplicating it, and that would be absurd. However, only someone who can read the Japanese text (which I cannot) can settle the matter. I therefore urge you to help us at Commons to solve the riddle. As a rule, the intrepretation given by the uploader is wrong (patents, not copyright, work that way, and these are different concepts), but since in this very issue each country has the possibility to tailor-make its own rules, what he says is not absurd per se, and should be therefore checked and verified.
 * This is an important task because it will affect all works of art from ANY artist who has not been dead for 70 years.
 * One last thing. The problem here does not come from the Japanese law itself. It allows educational and non-commercial use in a very explicit way. The problem is with the Wikimedia Foundation status which, contrary to what many people think, is NOT a non-commercial foundation, and asks for uploads to Commons to be available for ALL uses, including commercial uses as well. This is why F.O.P. uploads concerning countries where the "non-commercial only" clause apply (and Japan falls in this category), may not be accepted by WikiCommons.
 * My best wishes. --G.dallorto 15:47, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Capitalization
The name AEON (eikaiwa) should not be capitalized, as it is not an acronym like GEOS is. Chris 02:54, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * It should not have the Japanese word eikaiwa in the name, either. Like Nova (English teaching company), it should be renamed in English. So too should the article Eikaiwa. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fg2 (talk • contribs) 04:31, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, all of the other ones except Nova are named "eikaiwa", and as eikaiwa is a unique concept not covered by the awkward naming, and as all other such companies are named as eikaiwa in article names, I would vote in the other direction. Chris 04:39, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * With respect, it's like manga ≠ comics precisely, anime ≠ cartoons precisely, and sushi would become awkward as fish and rice and seaweed hors d'oeuvres. Some things Japanese just need to use Japanese terms. Domo, Chris 04:46, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Ah, we had an edit conflict. I had said that I'm glad we agree on the capitalization. I don't plan to push for renaming the articles. As for sushi, if you'd caught me an hour or two earlier I might have been tempted to indulge! Fg2 04:56, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Of course "AEON" should be "Aeon". And why stop there? As "GEOS" isn't pronounced ジー・イー・オウ・エス or similar, I'd make that "Geos" too. -- Hoary 05:19, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * GEOS is an acronym. Regardless of its pronunciation, full caps is appropriate. NASA isn't pronounced N-A-S-A. Douggers 05:52, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * But "Fiat" isn't written "FIAT". From today's paper: "Being a Nasa website, this is geared to astronomy." And: "Azerbaijan, which has a partnership deal with Nato, has been rumoured as a potential launching pad for US strikes..." -- Hoary 06:24, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Then feel free to make all the changes to NASA and NATO, for consistency throughout Wikipedia. Douggers 06:44, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * UK usage (as in those links) is to lowercase pronounceable acronyms. American usage is not to do so. Jpatokal 11:37, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * ??? and  .Oda Mari (talk) 07:19, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Is this the English or Japanese wiki. Just how many wikians will know what one eaeth Eikaiwa means. They should all consistently named ....(English school). It's not like manga, which has come into common use. See WP:Use English. — Rlevse  •  Talk  • 21:41, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree with the above user, even if he does put his point a bit roughly, and even if the original discussion was not regarding this. "Eikaiwa" in an English encyclopedia seems like pushing it. Sure, I know what it means, and you guys know what it means, and the weeaboos and the freeloaders on the Japanese' kokusaika angst know what it means, but does your average Joe Smith know what it means? TomorrowTime 21:48, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree, "eikaiwa" should not be allowed as an explanatory article suffix. -Amake 22:28, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Agree; and, since some eikaiwa teach Korean, French, etc, maybe they should be titled "Aeon (language school)" or something else which does not seem to imply that they only deal in English. Neier 22:56, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree both that "eikaiwa" should not be used, and that "language school" rather than "English school" is a good way to resolve the problem. "English school" is a bit vague in my mind at least, in the sense that "English school" can mean more than "English as-a-Second/Foreign-Language School" ... I would actually prefer a more literal translation of eikaiwa "English Conversation School" to "English School" if "Language School" is not deemed acceptable.  But given that "Language School" is more natural in English than "English school" (in my mind at least), and often these schools teach more than just English, I like "Language School" as a solution to the problem. CES 11:51, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Junji Ito
FYI, Category:Junji Ito is up for deletion at WP:CFD. 132.205.99.122 19:39, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Eikaiwa redux
Based on the section above, I opened up a Category for Discussion entry regarding. Please add your thoughts. Neier 11:02, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Hiromi Shinya
I recently wrote an article about gastroenterologist and author Hiromi Shinya. While his invention of the device used to remove polyps during colonoscopy, status as one of the world's preeminent gastroenterologists, and authorship of a book that sold 2 million copies in Japan make him highly notable, there is a dearth of information on him in English. I managed to find enough to write an article, but would benefit greatly from some research in Japanese, if anyone is willing to do it. I just think some more about his upbringing and his authorship of Japanese books would be good. I already covered his development of colonoscopy rather extensively. Please let me know if I am going about asking for help in the wrong way. --Nik-renshaw 03:55, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I appreciate the correction of my Japanese place names and the addition of Japanese characters for his name. Really, if anyone has the time, all I'm really asking is for descriptions of his successful books in Japan, and possibly the response from critics.  Or, at the very least, that information for Living without Disease: A Miracle Enzyme Determines Life (病気にならない生き方 ミラクル・エンザイムが寿命を決める).  Would it make sense for me to try to get in touch with someone on Japanese Wikipedia with knowledge of English?  Any help whatsoever is appreciated.  Nik-renshaw 22:16, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Tomonubu Imamichi
An attempt to rename the article Tomonobu Imamichi was blocked. Can an administrator rename it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fg2 (talk • contribs) 12:00, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Done. -- Rick Block (talk) 13:28, 2 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks! Fg2 21:46, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Merge all the wartime Japanese this and that articles into one for god's sake
Japanese militarism, Japanese nationalism, Japanese fascism, Japanese imperialism, Japanese expansionism, Militarism-Socialism in Showa Japan, Japanese military-political doctrines in the Showa period, Xenophobia in Showa Japan, etc. etc. Certain anti-Japan pov-pushing ediors seem to be trying their best to demonize wartime Japan by creating all these sophomoric original research essays on wartime Japan. This is utterly ridiculous. --61.198.218.24 14:54, 2 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree that many of them could be merged into each other. Perhaps it would be a good to make a list here of articles that would be likely candidates for merging. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 05:50, 3 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, I agree completely. I would like recommend adding the following articles. These also appear to be largely redundant original research with some systematic bias, and should be merged into one of the survivors of the above list.


 * Japanese nationalism: ideological development from the 1920s to 1945
 * Japanese nationalist thinking in the Meiji era

Also, all of the following articles have similar issues: they are redundant, appear to be plagiarized from some unnamed source (which I assume to be non-English due to the wording and number of grammatical mistakes), and contain unreferenced, unsupported original research.


 * Empire of Japan (economic and financial data)
 * Empire of Japan (foreign commerce and shipping)
 * Empire of Japan (additional economic and financial data)
 * Economy of the Japanese Empire in World War II
 * Japanese finances before and during WWII
 * Natural resources controlled by the Japanese Empire after 1937
 * Demographics of Imperial Japan
 * Transportation in the Empire of Japan
 * Japanese agriculture before WWII

Most appear to have been uploaded by two anon accounts (200.46.215.172 and 200.46.176.159), which I suspect may be the same person, and which now appear to be inactive. I would suggest that these nine articles could be merged into 1-2 articles, with the unsupported and redundant portions deleted unless someone can come forth with source information for this data. --MChew 14:21, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Hoaxes? Red Ball
I put the template on three articles by the same author: Red ball, Red Ball's 19th Anniversary and Plaza des balons rojos. If anyone has further information, it will be greatly appreciated. Fg2 04:38, 3 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The last one now has a speedy deletion template for being nonsense based in part on the sentence "The square cost 1 million quillion gazillion Yen to make and is said to be the ugliest Plaza in the world apart from the Plaza de Caca." The second one got the same template on the basis of the claim that the game was invented prior to the birth of the inventor ("The game was created by Henry Charles Garlick Baker (what a weird name) in the year 1988 although he was born in 1993."). Fg2 05:13, 3 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Someone has a strange sense of humor. Konamaiki 05:14, 3 November 2007 (UTC)


 * They've all been deleted as nonsense and blatant vandalism. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 05:26, 3 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks. BTW, I discovered them in the automatically generated list of new Japan-related articles on the Project page. Fg2 05:33, 3 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, that list does have its uses. (^_^) ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 05:50, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

"Chapuisat agreement"... 何？
Someone added this to the Azuchi-Momoyama period article... Can anyone verify these claims? It's just that for some reason I'm very skeptical about ancient Swiss-Japanese interaction... -- ざくら 木 18:39, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I... I thought early Western medicine came to Japan exclusively via Rangaku... I mean, wasn't Dejima pretty much the only direct window to the West during sakoku? (read: add my doubt to the veracity of this bit of info). TomorrowTime 19:17, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I can't find one shred of evidence to support this, so I reverted it as vandalism. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 19:21, 3 November 2007 (UTC)


 * A Google search for "Chapuisat agreement" (including the quotation marks) gives no results. A search for "Chapuisat agreement anatomy hideyoshi" (this time without the marks) gives only one result, and it's irrelevant (it looks like some kind of a spell-check dictionary). Hideyoshi was before sakoku but I've never heard of contact with the Swiss during his time. Fg2 22:23, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Category:Articles needing Japanese script or text
Hello everybody. I stumbled in Category:Articles needing Japanese script or text... Although I have tried to add kanji in lead text in a disambiguation page named "Sanae", it has the variety of very many kanji notations. Which way should I choose?


 * 1) typical notation only &mdash; Probably it is subjective.
 * 2) including everything &mdash; Many information which is not common is published. Please see about "さなえ" (Sanae) in this page. At least, there are 50 patterns. :)
 * 3) only the kanji in subordinate articles &mdash; The information which is not common may be published.

Please give me advice. Thanks. --Nightshadow28 16:15, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * As far as dag pages, like the one for the name Eiko go, I think it's a bit too optimistic to ask for kanji, IMO - the kanji in the personal name read "Eiko" can be written differently for every single name. Are we expected to write out every single one? Same thing for Sanae... TomorrowTime 19:57, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Discussion about best way to translate "jutsu"
We're having what I think is an important discussion here, about the best way to translate 術 in a martial arts context, particuarly as it relates to devising a brief but also accurate definition of the word jujutsu, but this will certainly implicate all of the articles about "-jutsu" martial arts. Probably the more people proficient in Japanese that are participating the better. Thanks, Bradford44 17:08, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I've always thought of it as something akin to "form", "style", or "method". ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 00:32, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

merge
Can someone who knows the subject give Yoshida family artists and Yoshida Family Artists a proper merge? Chris 06:02, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Japan's new immigration system
I added the following to the US-VISIT page...

''On November 20th, 2007, Japan will be instituting an immigration and border management system almost identical to the US-VISIT system. All foreign nationals (who don't fall under the 5 exemptions) will have both index-fingerprints scanned and a facial photo taken before entering the country. Those who refuse to comply will be denied entry into Japan and forced to leave.  Many people, including human rights groups and foreign residents in Japan, are voicing protest over the invasion of privacy and the violation of human rights this type of system embodies.'' Any suggestions? Yaki-gaijin 01:02, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * ... Et tu, Brutus? Sigh... TomorrowTime 07:04, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * "Many people ... are voicing protest" needs a reference; without one, it sounds like it means one person (you). I'm sure the statement is true, so it'll be easy to come up with a reference and add credibility. Fg2 10:19, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone know the official name of the new immigration system? "Welcome to Japan, Dirtbags" or something else...? Yaki-gaijin 07:16, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Hm... Doesn't seem to show up on any relevant pages, such as this one, for instance. I'd venture to say there probably is no fancy acronym name for the whole thing... (Unless it's JP-VISIT, since the whole thing seems to be an exact copy of the US paranoia measure anyway :) TomorrowTime 07:48, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Naming articles on historical ladies
We have articles with a variety of titles: Nene (person), Yodo-Dono, Lady Kasuga, Tokugawa Masako, Nōhime. Any suggestions for how to unify article titles? Fg2 10:11, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Not sure a single style can cover all of them, but if one works for many, or if a couple work for nearly all, that's a step forward. Fg2 10:33, 11 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid that your suspicion probably is right that there could probably be no some standard uniform naming convention. The problem is that, most of the time, we don't know the real names of those historically important Japanese women, and so they are only known by some nicknames, pen names, etc. I can add: Murasaki shikibu, Hojo Masako, Ioe no Iratsume to the list given above. Of course, I too would love to hear if anyone has a good idea. (By the way, this is a topic we need to cover in Japanese name or something) --- Taku 10:55, 11 November 2007 (UTC)


 * That may be right. Still, we might be able to unify some of these: Yodo-Dono (a name having a hyphen followed by a Japanese title with a capital letter), Nōhime (a name with no hyphen followed by a Japanese title with a lowercase letter), Lady Kasuga (an English title followed by a name), Tokugawa Masako (a birth surname followed by a given name: Hojo Masako follows this pattern) and Nene (a name alone). Fg2 11:43, 11 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok, first of all, if the real names of the women (e.g., Tokugawa Masako) are known, then that would be easy: they can be handled just like male figures. The same goes for members of royal families; the matter is simply whether to use princess or prince, emperor or empress. The second patter would be X-hime; e.g., nohime, tokuhime. We can keep going with this sort of analysis, but I'm not sure what is the goal, because this is simply what is currently done. I mean, tell me, what is a concrete problem to solve, for example? -- 22:11, 11 November 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by TakuyaMurata (talk • contribs)


 * For one, including Japanese honorific suffixes in the English language is an anachronism and should be avoided in an encyclopedia, IMO. I mean, it's not like the Mexican president's page has him down as 'Senor Calderon', is it? So, my suggestion would be to at least move Yodo-dono to Lady Yodo. TomorrowTime 00:29, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Japanese cuisine
I don't understand this edit. I asked it to the editor and his reply was this. I think Japanese archaeologists try to find out what Jomon people ate from middens, don't they? And Japanese preference in short grain rice to long grain rice is a prejudice? I'd like to hear others' comments. Oda Mari (talk) 13:58, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Matsuura Seizan
The article on Matsuura Seizan seems to have some inconsistencies. The most glaring one is that he is supposed to have influenced Miyamoto Musashi's school of swordsmanship, which, short of Matsuura sporting a time machine, seems improbable - Miyamoto lived 200 years earlier. Another thing that drew my attention is that Matsuura is described as a daimyo in Japanese wiki, and then as fencer, whereas in the English article his daimyohood (is that even a word?...) is not even mentioned. Also, the names seem to disagree - while in J-wiki he is under the primary name Matsuura Kiyoshi, whose alternative names include 'Eizaburo' and 'Seizan' (幼名は英三郎. 号は静山. ), these other names aren't even mentioned in the English article. What brought me to Matsuura's article in the first place is the link in the newly-added picture of the Kuda-gitsune article, which is another thing that baffles me - while Matsuura is described as author of some fencing books, nothing in the article seems to imply that he also wrote books on supernatural beings.

Anywho... Does anyone have further information on Matsuura that could be used to improve the artcle? If not, I'll probably get around to transfering data from the J-wiki sometime at the end of this week or in the next one. TomorrowTime 14:05, 12 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I guess the sentence should be 'he is supposed to have been influenced by Miyamoto Musashi school of swordsmanship.' Oda Mari (talk) 15:47, 12 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, the actual sentence in the article goes like this:
 * ''The famed Miyamoto Musashi had notably shown some reflection of Seizan's angle to swordsmanship within his art. The School of Musashi was truly developed through this, in which it formed many a branch, even extending into the time of present day.
 * ...which is hard to understand in any other way than: "Musashi studied and applied Matsuura's tecniques in his swordsmanship". Which is, of course, quite impossible. Unless the Matsuura Seizan that is supposedly refered to in the book used as reference is some other Matsuura Seizan, which, seeing as how many other details in the article seem to match with the Matsuura described in the J-wiki article, seems like a bit of a stretch. Has anyone read the book used as reference? TomorrowTime 17:56, 12 November 2007 (UTC)


 * If I recall correctly, the original author of the article has been banned from Wikipedia, and many hundreds of articles he wrote have been deleted. Fg2 22:13, 12 November 2007 (UTC)


 * He was indefinitely blocked for a while, but that block has since been lifted. This does have the appearance, though, of many of the articles which were deleted. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 04:37, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

So... What should be done? Matsuura definitely existed (as proven by the article in ja.wiki), but is he even notable enough to have an article? TomorrowTime 07:51, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Half-translated articles
A certain user keeps replacing existing (stub) articles with long, half-translated swaths of text from the Japanese Wikipedia that ignore all English MOS conventions. I've asked this user to stop, but without success. What is the proper procedure for these kinds of things? -Amake 12:38, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * If the translations are decently correct, I'd mark them as needing cleanup and refs. If you can, normalizing the English would be good, too. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 01:16, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I know you were trying to be polite, but it might be useful to give an example here. I really don't find any of the stray Japanese text in the new version productive. It's nice to have a bit more history, but we don't need kanji for place names that are already found on linked pages, either. The article has been turned from a usable stub into something opaque to non-Japanese speakers, with only a minimal increase in usefulness to people who are Japanese-literate. I'd recommend that he add things he's already translated, and leave the untranslated Japanese text out. With or without translation, it's unsourced, after all. Dekimasu よ! 07:09, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * It seems other users have been concerned about this as well. Dekimasu よ! 07:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * This addition appears to be fixable (i.e., we can copyedit it), but I don't see why he changed the whole order of the top of the page in addition to adding his history - in particular, the attempt to open the article with a hierarchy of links instead of an opening sentence isn't very productive. Dekimasu よ! 07:16, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The additions I think look fairly clearly automated, as they're a near copy of the Japanese formatting and looks like an automatic translation of the text. If this overwrites what has already been written in clear English we should do something about it, but it could also be an effective tool.  And I think I've seen some of these in the past.  Saves time if you're planning on translating it anyway.  I may have a look at some of the edits.  Don't worry about this too much, just go through and do a quick line by line removal of the Japanese if you're uncomfortable with it. -Theanphibian (talk • contribs) 07:26, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Or put it in a comment -- readers don't see it, but it's convenient for editors. I would not encourage putting untranslated Japanese, or machine-translated passages in multiple articles; work on one at a time and only use machine translation en route to a more polished English article. But for what's already there, if it's good, keep it; if it's not yet ready for the public consider hiding it in a comment. Fg2 08:17, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Affair of the four abandoned children of Sugamo
I've removed a PROD template and PROD seconding template from this. The reason for the PROD: it had been poorly referenced for 10 months. But it wasn't "poorly" referenced; it wasn't referenced at all. Still, the article appeared to be intelligently composed; chucking it out too quickly seemed a waste. However, I'm too busy to search for references (and frankly the story doesn't interest me to the point where I'd want to search for them). Somebody else can take over. -- Hoary 06:54, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Apparently, this book discusses it, but I don't have access to it. If anyone lives near a major public library in Japan, it might be easy to find the relevant material. Fg2 07:43, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

OS-tan
OS-tan, the article on unofficial Microsoft OS mascots from 2ch/2chan has been mentioned as requiring sources from the last AfD. Note that the article has been itself quoted as a source by Wired Magazine. -- 132.205.99.122 (talk) 20:22, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

transwikiing (Why bother?)
No offense to the fine people who compile Wiktionary, but I use alternative dictionaries. At the same time, I've felt sorry for Wiktionary when I've seen how much putative dictionary material (much of it ostensibly Japanese-related) that I think is very dubious is sent there from here rather than simply being deleted.

Today I've made my very first edit there.

Am I just a timewasting kibitzer or do others here agree about this sort of thing? -- Hoary (talk) 03:36, 17 November 2007 (UTC)


 * According Wiktionary, it now contains"Wikisaurus, a category that serves as a thesaurus, including lists of slang words." So, Eihongo, in this case, seems to belong there. (Note that I have zero knowledge on the inclusion criterion, if any, used there). More generally speaking, I think I'm probably not alone in thinking that wiktionary isn't quite working; thinking, not claiming. Theoretically speaking, the wiki-style collaborative system, which works unbelievably well here, may not be suitable for building of a dictionary. Since I never though wikipedia would work, I could well be wrong, though. -- Taku (talk) 03:49, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Some new articles
In looking at the automatically generated list of new Japan-related articles, I found the following:
 * Japan foreign marriage
 * Konpa in Japan
 * Sexual Minorities in Japan
 * Takarazuka Theater
 * Japanese blue collar workers

Does anyone have any opinions on these? Fg2 (talk) 04:01, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * They are problematic would be my opinion, I guess. They have to be handled on a case-by-case basis, since the articles have referenced text and we can use them to start from scratch, for instance. I guess, the problem is actually in the article titles, rather than in the text itself which is not in a tone we use here. For example, "Japan foreign marriage" seems grammatically, umm, incorrect? "Konpa in Japan" not good one since there is no konpa in other countries (by the way, it should be compa or something since コンパ is a contraction of companionship, as far as I know.) -- Taku (talk) 09:28, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Takarazuka Theater is in the middle of a merge discussion. Please participate here. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 17:59, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * There's Gokon. Merge? Oda Mari (talk) 19:17, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Technically, the two are different because, as I understand, Gokon is a contraction of godo-konpa, godo meaning combination or union, as in godo-enshu (joint exercise). So, linguistically, it makes more sense to merge Gokon into konpa. On the other hand, gokon may be more popular as both word and practice. And so the merger in the other way around might reflect the reality better. -- Taku (talk) 23:21, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

The reason I listed these articles is that they appear to be essays rather than encyclopedia articles. They analyze and persuade rather than collect knowledge. While they're thoroughly referenced, they draw conclusions from the sources in ways that are more appropriate to essays than to expository articles. An editor, Arendedwinter, placed a template on Japanese blue collar workers stating that "This article is written like a personal reflection or essay." Anyone else agree with Arendedwinter? Fg2 (talk) 10:53, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

kana generator?
My soujourn to get to Japan continues apace. Might you know where I can get my name put properly into Katakana, like a website or something? It would help me to learn if I could write my own name. Thank you all! Chris (talk) 17:57, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Not sure about any generators, but your name in katakana is クリス. Unless you're looking for 金鉄バッファロー. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 18:02, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * 近鉄バッファロー. Oda Mari (talk) 18:38, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you both! Chris (talk) 18:47, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Project template updated
I updated the project template to include all the different taskforces. Here's the documentation:

{|class=wikitable style="background-color:#ddeeff;"

The WikiProject Japan project banner template should be added (not subst:ed) to the talk page of every article within the scope of the project. While the template does not require any additional parameters, it has a number of optional ones that add various extra features to the banner.

Usage
The full syntax is as follows:


 * small – "yes" if the banner should be rendered in its miniature size; this should be used sparingly and only on crowded talk pages for the time being.
 * nested – "yes" when the template is nested inside WikiProjectBannerShell
 * class – a rating of the article's quality; see the assessment department for more details. Categories and Templates are automatically assessed by this template. Options are:
 * FA for articles which are Featured
 * A for articles which are A-Class
 * GA for articles which are Good Articles
 * B for articles which are B-Class
 * Start for articles which are Start-Class
 * Stub for articles which are Stubs
 * List for articles which are Lists
 * Dab for articles which are Disambiguation articles
 * NA for articles which are Not Articles (such as project articles).


 * importance – Top, High, Mid, Low. Descriptions of the options can be found at WikiProject Japan.
 * tf: To be used if the article falls under a specific task force. Options are:
 * Baseball
 * Car
 * Districts and municipalites
 * Gaijin tarento
 * Military history
 * Music
 * Mythology
 * Owarai
 * Photo
 * Prefectures
 * Royalty and nobility
 * Shinto
 * Update

To avoid needlessly cluttering up talk pages, it is usually appropriate to remove any unused parameters from the template.


 * }

Please let me know if you have any questions. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 21:26, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Kimi ga Yo copyedit
Can anyone help copyedit the Kimi ga Yo article? I want to send this to Good Article candidates eventually. Thanks. Gruntbrat (talk) 06:40, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Template vandalism: Hiroshima
An IP user vandalized Hiroshima, as a result of which another user removed the template from Hiroshima. I've added the template to my watchlist and would welcome others' doing the same. Fg2 (talk) 08:07, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Prayer in Shinto
As a member of WikiProject Christianity, I submitted the article Prayer to a peer review. One comment I got was that it was short on Japanese prayer, more specifically Shinto.

I wrote a stub about Shinto prayer within the article, which was based on what I read in the articles Ema (Shinto) and Omikuji. I would be grateful if anyone could expand on the few lines I wrote. Thanks in advance. --Blanchardb- Me  MyEarsMyMouth-timed 17:33, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Bushi
User:AjaxSmack has asked for input on the Bushi article, which is in a forlorn state. He is wondering about merging it to Samurai or Bushido, or if it should just be transferred to Wiktionary. I have given him my input, the brunt of which is here:

Bushi is a fairly long and complex article on the Japanese Wikipedia, which goes to great lengths to distinguish between different kinds of soldier; bushi seems to be the most all-encompassing term, and the 武士 category on the JA Wiki includes most of the main articles on these different things (e.g. Ji-samurai, Samurai, Kokujin). I think it's clear that the page shouldn't be merged into Bushido, but it's understandable to want to merge it into Samurai, given that English fails to distinguish between the terms. Ideally, the article could be fleshed out. The key sentence for defining the term seems to be this one: よく言われるように貴族に仕える存在として認識された武士を侍と呼んだと言うよりもむしろ、上層武士を除く大多数の武士が侍身分の一角を形成したと言った方が正確であろう. It basically says that although "samurai" is often used to mean "bushi who were in the service of noblemen", in actuality, almost all bushi (except for the most affluent) served in that role at some point. There are various incongruities and overlap that make me confused here (ashigaru aren't samurai, but are they bushi?), so I'd rather ask others as well.

I'm sure someone here has better knowledge of these intricacies than I do; can we have more feedback? Dekimasu よ! 14:10, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I see your point. My opinion is that we shouldn't merge it, because if we can make our articles line up with those on the ja Wikipedia, then it can make it easier in the future if someone wants to translate.  So I might put a translate tag on the article. -Theanphibian (talk • contribs) 15:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Japanese addressing system
Oda Mari pointed out that Japanese addressing system was unclear and even incorrect. I've tried to make it clear and correct but it may need some help. Also, when addresses are written in romaji, does the postal company expect them to go from general to specific, or the reverse? I want to give examples in romaji. (I also removed mention of a specific store, whose address was previously used as an example.) There's still some confusing material about how numbers are assigned. That's relevant to someone hunting for an address but not for someone writing an address. Is there a way to organize the material to separate the topics? Fg2 (talk) 01:29, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

P.S. the specific store is still the example in the next section. Can someone come up with a specific address that illustrates the parts without giving directions to a commercial establishment? Fg2 (talk) 01:30, 22 November 2007 (UTC)


 * If addresses are written in romaji, they should be written in Western order (Name, street, city, prefecture, postal code, country). Additionally (though I have no sources other than people I talked to at the various post offices), addresses written in romaji are routed to a post office in either Osaka or Tokyo in order to be sorted to where they go, and this process adds additional delivery time. If the address is written in kanji/kana, they are routed much more quickly.


 * As for an example address, using a major post office in Japan may be a good idea. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 02:31, 22 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I just looked at the section and I think it's quite clear and easy to understand. Good job. (^_^) ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 03:40, 22 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Wonderful!!! Thank you. Now I'm going to get the address of the Main Post Office in Tokyo. Please wait for a while. Oda Mari (talk) 05:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Ha! At the same time, I was looking for the same post office. Sorry I didn't see your comment first! My only regret about using the address of the post office is that the number "2" appears in two different places. This makes it less clear as an example. But it's better than a store. Best regards, Fg2 (talk) 05:38, 22 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Seemingly a matter of minutes, you beat me, Fg2! When I clicked the edit tab, I saw the post office address. Thank you so much. I know that is the right way to write in Romaji, but I personally prefer to write like 2-7-2 Marunouchi, Chiyoda-ku and do so when I write. Oda Mari (talk) 05:48, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

traditional Constellations
I just thought I'd let you know that there doesn't seem to be any input on traditional constellations (excepting Mediterranean and European ones) at the Constellation wikiproject. There should be, considering these are still in use. See WikiProject Astronomy/Constellations Task Force 132.205.99.122 (talk) 23:27, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Merge discussion: Geesha girls → Geisha
Please come participate in the discussion. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 20:33, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone know?
I have found Ginbou, but I could not find it in a book of wagashi... Does anyone know it? If anyone does not know it, I will request to delete it. Thanks. --Nightshadow28 (talk) 03:08, 17 November 2007 (UTC)


 * This one is interesting. The article looks legitimate, and yet I have never heard of it. And so, the sentence "one of the most familiar wagashi to the people in Japan." is clearly untrue. I also can't find anything on "Ginboen", supposedly famous garden. (e.g., Japanese garden never mentions it) Maybe spelling is wrong; or even maybe the article is hoax? -- Taku (talk)


 * I've moved it to the title with a macron, and edited it to link directly to gyūhi with a macron, but I don't have any information about the subject. Fg2 (talk) 03:18, 17 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I thank you for your comments. Probably, hoax. But I will wait for some days. Thanks. --Nightshadow28 (talk) 04:22, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

おじゃまします、調べてまいりました. （この種の話を英語でやるのは、ちょっと自信が無いんですが、. ） This article must be Gionbō (祇園坊). correction 17:00, 26 November 2007 (UTC) この菓子は祇園坊という名のようで、初版にもGionbouと書かれています. . The first version of the article had Gionbou at beginning word.

Yesterday I have found some informations about Gionbō. I also have never heard of Gionbō until yesterday. こういうお上品そうな御菓子は、私には縁がなさそうですなぁ. And I don't know the famous garden. AyaseHarukazeboy (talk) 23:49, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * made in Kyoto - http://kyoto-wagasi.com/review/oharame_gionbo.html
 * made in Toyonaka,Osaka http://shopping.yourguide.co.jp/c_food/item-3401374_1
 * unknownplace http://plaza.rakuten.co.jp/hamehameha/diary/200611280000/
 * Toraya, seasonal product, next sale (5th in the six) - http://www.toraya-group.co.jp/products/pro08/pro08_101.html http://www.toraya-group.co.jp/products/pro08/pro08_001.html
 * blog (the last in the four) - http://www.chatwalker.com/HOUHOU/diary/56783/
 * How to make (in Kyōtanabe,Kyoto) - http://karusyoku.com/chisan/kyoto/chisan_wagasi_06.html
 * 記入もれ追加. 御縁の薄い事柄ですので、ノータブルか否かについてのコメントは、控えさせていただきます. Sorry, I can not tell whether it's notable enough or not. AyaseHarukazeboy (talk) 17:00, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * "飴餡を求肥でくるみ、和三盆糖をまぶし、白い粉をふいた干柿をかたどりました. 柿の一品種である祇園坊より菓銘がついたとも考えられています. (Toraya)"
 * "「祇園坊」という菓名の由来は、干し柿に使用された美しく上質な渋柿の品種名のようです. (Kyotababeshi wagashi no kai)"
 * "干し柿のうまみは、唐天竺は祇園精舎の苑林に遊ぶ心地がするとたたえたのか「祇園坊」の名がある. 求肥餅で干し柿の形に意匠した菓子もそういうが、“祇園坊”にふさわしくない味の土産菓子もあるから、おかしい. 祇園坊の名の本当の由来は柿の熟し色の変化を、僧侶の袈裟（けさ）の壊色（えしき）に重ねたのかもしれない. 僧侶の袈裟が修業の段階によって青、黄、赤、白と移ってゆく様子を干し柿にかけたのであれば、菓子でつくる「祇園坊」の味が“青柿”であってはゆるされまい. (Kyo-gashi Kyoto Confectionery)"
 * Basically, the name of the Kyo-gashi seems coming from a persimmon breed and both are noteworthy, while the current article names are typo-based and should be deleted after move.--Jjok 20:07, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I thank AyaseHarukazeboy and praise an investigation by him. I cound inquire still more.

First, Gionbō kaki (祇園坊柿) is noted kind of an astringent persimmon which is cultivated mainly in Hiroshima Prefecture. In the early Edo peropd, during Kanbun years (about 1660), there is a record that a bonze who had lived in Gion district grew this species, so it has been named Gionbo kaki. And an another version of the story, the shape of fruit is similar to shaved head of a bonze's of Gion Shrine, so people has started to call it Gionbō kaki (persimmon of the Gion shrine's bonze). Buddism and Shinto had overlapped in that age, so there was bonzes in the shrine.

Second, some confectioneries (wagashi; Japanese sweets) derived (or using its name) from Gionbō kaki was born. One of the yokan made of Gionbō kaki. Or red bean paste wrapped by gyūhi and covered by wasanbon sugar powder for modeling on the shape of Gionbō kaki. Or there is also manjū which is made of dried persimmon. In short, there is some types of wagashi named "Gionbō".

As a result, article will be materialized if the above-mentioned information is synthesized and corrected spelling. I am sorry to waste your time, and I thank for everyone's works. And thanks, Jjok. --Nightshadow28 06:15, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Article Improvement Contest
Have you seen The Core Contest? It's a two-week drive to improve certain articles. There's a cash prize for the winners. The articles to be improved are listed here. Several are Japan-related topics, including Akira Kurosawa, History of Japan, Japanese yen, and Tokyo. Expect activity in some of these articles. Good luck to all participants! Fg2 (talk) 01:36, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

A fuller list:


 * Akira Kurosawa
 * Asia
 * Hirohito
 * History of Japan
 * Japanese yen
 * Judo
 * Karate
 * Matsuo Bashō
 * Meiji Restoration
 * Murasaki Shikibu
 * Noh
 * Shinto
 * Tokyo
 * Tokyo Stock Exchange
 * Tsunami
 * Zeami Motokiyo

Of course I might have missed some so please see the complete list for full details. Fg2 (talk) 02:11, 25 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The contest ends on December 9. Fg2 (talk) 01:06, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Can you watchlist this?
Can a few of you add Template:Japanese ethnicity to your watchlists? We have a persistent vandal with a dynamic IP address who likes to remove sourced numbers related to Latin America and Germany (the same user has been vandalizing certain other Japan-related pages as well). Dekimasu よ! 06:25, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Done. Fg2 (talk) 07:12, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * As the template is only used in Japanese people, I would like suggest to subst: it to Japanese people, which is likely to be watched by many people. --Kusunose (talk) 07:54, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I just placed it on Japanese diaspora as it makes sense to have it there, too. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 01:45, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I have semi-protected the template as the only people messing with it are anon IPs. This will prevent IPs and new users from vandalizing it. I feel it is justified with the amount of vandalism over the last few days. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 06:20, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The persistent vandal has now registered as "Jae1205", which I have now sock-puppet tagged. Chris (talk) 07:04, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

東北大學
東北大學 is up for deletion or merging at Articles for deletion/東北大學. 132.205.99.122 (talk) 22:20, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you. It's a disambiguation page for people who type the exact kanji into the search box. The article on the university in Japan is not part of this deletion vote. Fg2 (talk) 23:24, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * P.S. I've added it to WikiProject Deletion sorting/Japan. Fg2 (talk) 23:26, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Tokyo's top ranked private universities
Really. (Or then again, perhaps not really.)

Yes, yes, I realize that this has come up before, but at that time I couldn't manage to interest anyone in this article, which strikes me as obviously unencyclopedic. Yes, it is possible to write something informative and disinterested on the subject, but this subject still wouldn't be encyclopedic (in my opinion); further, this article, with its failure to mention huge differences by 学部 (and sometimes even 学科) within universities, doesn't qualify. Oh yes, it's "sourced", but a number of the sources for claims in the present tense are over a decade old, and it's also sourced in a hazy, first-year-undergrad sort of way, so that (for example) two scholars are cited as claiming that Aoyama Gakuin, Chuo, Gakushuin, and ICU do not belong to a set defined as a list of other universities. (Well of course: phrased less pompously, it would be obvious to any ten-year-old.)

But it gets worse. Thanks to a recent edit, the term "MARCH" (for what little it's worth) is defined as excluding Aoyama Gakuin and including Sophia -- could the "A" of "MARCH" be for Sophia spelled backwards, "Aihpos"? This is a by-product of a long war between one person who's keen to lump Sophia with Keio and Waseda, and another who's keen to avoid this.

Now, I may have an opinion on whether Sophia does or doesn't belong with 早慶 rather than with the humbler alternatives. And I may change it tomorrow. Whether it's yes or no, I'm pretty sure I can come up with "sources" to back it up.

Meanwhile, I'll guess that a small but significant percentage of students and graduates of Japanese universities are rather desperate either (i) to link their university with other, prestigious universities that may, on average, be a rung or two above, or (ii) to dismiss the pretensions to equality of universities that they see as, on average, a rung or two below.

(All rather ridiculous, as kids don't enter and later graduate from なんとか大学平均学部; they instead graduate from specific faculties -- and A-gakubu in less prestigious university X can be more helpful than B-gakubu in more prestigious university Y.)

The normal response would be: If the article's broke, fix it. And if the edit war intensifies: Protect the wrong version. However, the very concept of the article strikes me as broken, so I'm inclined to send it to AfD. But I thought I'd ask y'all first. -- Hoary (talk) 11:01, 27 November 2007 (UTC)


 * It is nebulous, isn't it? There is a possibility of rescuing it. Organizing the article according to sources rather than slogans could make it less of a magnet for opinionated readers. Have a section header that says "Reliable source A's rankings" followed by a short list and a discussion of A's criteria, then a section for Reliable source B and so forth. Including a section on Reliable sources' criticisms of the rankings would be useful in acknowledging issues like the ones you raised.


 * Is that going to happen? I don't know, but if it does it will be an improvement. (I have no plans to rewrite it.) I would not miss an article in which Wikipedia tells the world that the most prestigious private universities in Tokyo are A-B-C-D-E, and changes its mind when people feel like editing the article. That's not an encyclopedia article; it's a blog.  Fg2 (talk) 11:52, 27 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Sophia does not belong with 早慶. It's always just 早慶 and it has nothing to do with the ranking. The origin is their baseball games. And there's a word 東京六大学 and it is also a baseball related word. I agree with you Hoary. Oda Mari (talk) 15:17, 27 November 2007 (UTC)


 * But Mari, there are two issues (or non-issues) here: names and facts. Yes, 早慶 is the name (though the last time I heard, the 慶応 administration was straightfacedly referring to 「慶早戦」). And "MARCH" is a name that stands for Meiji, Aoyama Gakuin, Rikkyou, Chuuou and Housei (a group that I suspect was selected for the pronouncability of the resulting acronym). They'd both be reasonable dictionary entries (except that WP is not a dictionary). But how about the facts of ranking and prestige? I don't see why these should neatly accord with neat acronyms. I agree with Fg2 that it would be possible to write something intelligent about them; however, I can't be bothered to do so, and I infer that Fg2 can't either. Indeed, I rather hope that nobody else does. (Further, I hope that nobody fixes the very obvious mistakes in the article as it stands: until the article is deleted, these mistakes should serve to warn the reader that the article is a crock.) -- Hoary (talk) 15:31, 27 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I noticed the MARCH is the acronym when I read the article. But I've never heard of MARCH before. I suspect it might be a 受験業界用語. As I do not know about the ranking, I cannot be a help. Sorry. I support AfD. Oda Mari (talk) 16:24, 27 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The term really does exist and on very rare occasions I've heard it used. But it's merely a term lumping five fairly (though not vastly) prestigious private universities in Tokyo whose names happen to be conducive to formation of an acronym. Meanwhile, 早慶 is (or could be) meaningful outside baseball: one way I can immediately think of is that both Keio and Waseda have excellent libraries, and the students of either university have full use of both libraries. -- Hoary (talk) 15:24, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * You are right, Hoary. There is a related word 私学の雄. Probably their relation is similar to that of Cambridge and Oxford. Oda Mari (talk) 15:58, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * As I perhaps misunderstand it, 私学の雄 means something like "private universities with the most clout". Now, all of this talk of ranking of Japanese universities strikes me as more or less repellent or silly or both, but I'm willing to go along with it for a few minutes here. Nichidai scores high for some subjects but not in general, so its overall ranking would be low. However, it has lots of clout in part because of the sheer large population of its graduates: in intracompany political rivalry (e.g. for promotion to shachou), the Nichidai man (yes, usually a man, alas) can count on a sizable Nichidai-graduate constituency. &para; I'll send this monstrosity off to AfD soon, unless Fg2 promises to do something wonderful to it. -- Hoary (talk) 05:28, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * No, I'm only slightly interested in the subject, and not inclined to argue with the people who want to include a favorite university or exclude a rival. Fg2 (talk) 08:23, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Japan-related GA
I have put the Tetsuji Takechi article up for GA review in the "Film and Cinema" section, but perhaps someone at this project would be interested in reviewing it also. Regards. Dekkappai (talk) 19:00, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Naitō Tadayuki
This page is up for deletion - I've tried to make it more presentable but it needs the attention of a Japanese speaker. Paularblaster (talk) 00:07, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the heads up. I'll do it within 24 hours. -- Hoary (talk) 05:51, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

19th century Japan photos
The New York Public Library Digital Gallery has a number of excellent photos of Japan taken during the 19th century. For instance see here. I've been in touch with their head of permissions, who assures me that any images taken before 1923 are in the public domain and can be placed on Wikimedia Commons and Wikipedia. He only requests that we link back to the original image and link back to the NYPL site, which I've done for a number of images. For instance, see this great 19th century shot of.

Of course, a note of permission is also required, which I'll attach here. Be sure to attach this to any images you upload, and it might be polite to mention the source in the caption for the photo. Hopefully we can find some great old images to add to Japan articles! -- Exitmoose (talk) 02:14, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

"Any image before 1923 is in the public domain. Please credit the images as listed below. A link back to the NYPL web site would be greatly appreciated.

NYPL Digital Gallery, The New York Public Library

Thomas Lisanti Manager, Photographic Services & Permissions The New York Public Library 476 Fifth Avenue, Room 103 New York, NY 10018

permissions@nypl.org"


 * Permission is great! I'd seen their site some time ago and while I loved the site, it didn't seem to grant permission, so I avoided uploading any of their photos. Thanks for seeking and receiving permission, and thanks to Thomas Lisanti and the New York Public Library for granting it! Fg2 (talk) 11:03, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I've used some of their images before (see this, by Antonio Beato, this, by Felice Beato), uploaded to Wikimedia Commons. NYPL images are very sharp and often come with the bonus of fairly accurate dates, descriptions, original titles, etc. Uploading to the Commons necessitates the provision of a link to the source and appropriate credit, so all is in order with pre-1923 images almost automatically. Pinkville (talk) 03:40, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I should add that two more sources of pre-1923 images are The Nagasaki University Library (though trickier to link to - ask me if you need help) and Terry Bennett's Old Japan (Bennett is a very friendly and helpful supplier of information and images). Again, because these photos are pre-1923 they are in the public domain and can be used, but always citing the source and providing a link to the source. Pinkville (talk) 03:46, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Tashanna of Domo-kun
What does she end her sentences with in the Japanese version? I paid a visit to the official Domo-kun website - The character "Tashanna," according to the English page, ends her sentences with "y"s. Now, as for the Japanese page (The character is Ta-chan in Japanese), what does she end her sentences with? When getting to the Japanese page, double click on the splash screen and the profiles of Domo-kun, Ta-chan, and Usajii (Mr. Usaji in English) appear. WhisperToMe (talk) 05:35, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * She ends her sentences with chi. Chi from itachi. The Japanese page says it's itachi accent (いたち訛り)/ weasel accent. You can hear her voice there. Oda Mari (talk) 05:54, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * What is the romanization of "いたち訛り" ? WhisperToMe (talk) 01:13, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Itachi namari. Oda Mari (talk) 05:06, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * P.S. On the official page, they don't use kanji for 訛り. It written as いたちなまり. Oda Mari (talk) 06:30, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Administrator question regarding Shinto
User:Koavf made some hundreds of well-intentioned edits in which he put macrons on "Shinto," turning it from English (see OED and M-W) to Japanese. He and I have discussed it amicably and agreed to work on undoing the edits. But first, I thought I'd ask administrators if you have a screen that makes it easier than visiting each page's history, clicking the previous version, editing and saving? It would save a thousand clicks if you have that sort of capability. Best regards, Fg2 (talk) 11:00, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, we have the rollback button which lets us undo an edit (or series of edits) with one click. It looks like Koavf is fixing all his edits, though. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 01:06, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks. If it's easy for an administrator I was hoping to save him some work (and I had agreed to join in). But he's fast with AWB and I'm busy so maybe he'll beat me to the punch. Thanks for letting me know. Fg2 (talk) 02:37, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Another Domo-kun character question
Actually this regards two. What are the Japanese names of: WhisperToMe (talk) 01:12, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The bear that is friends with Domo-kun - The English name is "A Little Bear"
 * The pixie flower twins that only Domo can see - The English names are "Hee" and "Haw"
 * The bear is Kumanoko/くまのこ, meaning a cub in Japanese. くま is bear and こ is child. The flower twins are Hanaichi/花一(Flower One) and Hana ni ji/花二 (Flower Two). Oda Mari (talk) 06:28, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Mari Oda (if that is your name)/Oda Mari (if that is a pseudonym) :) WhisperToMe (talk) 07:55, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I do believe it's a pseudonym. I've never seen the show, but is the second twin perhaps 花次, "second" in the sense that 次郎 is a common name for a second son? LordAmeth 11:32, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi, LordAmeth. Please take a look at here. I replied to the user directly and added correction, info. etc. Oda Mari (talk) 14:17, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Was this flag the National flag of Japan truly?
Hello all. I'm looking for infomation of Flag of Japan when Japan was occupied by GHQ. A few days ago, I've found a contribution by User:Heat5959 about the flag of Allied Occupied Japan at Occupation of Japan. Although I had interest attracted and investigated, yet I have not made it clear. I have found facts so far have mentioned on talk page. If there are people who have the more detailed knowledge about this flag, please join discussion.-- W/mint -Talk- 15:07, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * According to, this flag was only used on Japanese civil ships. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 03:11, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

straw poll
We have conducting a straw poll about this issue at Talk:Occupation of Japan. Could you participate in a straw poll for flag image of infobox?-- W/mint -Talk- 11:39, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Need help with some translation...
I'm helping translate some stuff for an article at the Anime wikiproject, but I'm having trouble with one katakana word and was wondering if someone could give me some insight. I've searched all over my dictionaries and haven't found a single reference to it. The word is モヤツ. Any help would be appreciated. Also, if this really doesn't belong here I apologize... Zemalia 13:43, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * You sure that isn't モヤシ, aka beansprout? Jpatokal 16:42, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Answered. That was an adverb 'もやっと'. Oda Mari (talk) 18:34, 30 November 2007 (UTC)