Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan/Archive/November 2023

Requested move at Talk:Ōsumi Kurumazuka Kofun
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Ōsumi Kurumazuka Kofun that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Polyamorph (talk) 06:21, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Sources and citations related to ordinary use/norms of kanji
Hey! I've been doing a lot of work trying to get Chinese characters to a GA state, and I'm having trouble sourcing a few statements specifically regarding kanji, any direction would be tremendously appreciated, as well as any critique of the treatment of kanji within the article, which is meant to be wholly part and parcel of its scope : "[The jōyō kanji] are common guidelines, hence many characters outside these standards are still widely known and commonly used, especially those used for personal and place names,[citation needed] as well as for some common words such as 'dragon', in which both old (龍) and new (竜) forms of the character are acceptable and widely known amongst native Japanese speakers."Japanese newspapers may deign to replace the [rare] character with katakana instead, as is accepted practice when one is unsure of the correct kanji to write.[citation needed] I would really appreciate a book or article that deals with this sociolinguistic area in general, thank you so much in advance! [e: Maybe a common style guide I can cite?] Remsense  聊  11:21, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't have an immediate source, but some comments. There is a theory (I call it "EKT", for "English-kanji theory") that the English word "kanji" has a completely different meaning from the Japanese word 「漢字」 ('kanji'), and this theory seems to be taken as given in WP circles. The J-kanji simply means "Chinese characters", "Han ideograms" or whatever you call them. The E-kanji is said to refer only to the precisely defined set of characters derived from Han ideograms which are used in Japanese. Of course this is based on all sorts of factoids: some kanji in Japanese have forms not used in Chinese (any version); some were created in Japan; there is a list of the jōyō kanji; and so on. The EKT position is not really coherent, because it clashes with reality; in practice, there simply is no set of "the Japanese kanji characters". Specifically the 1970s simplified characters are mostly used only in their original form (or a slightly different Japanese) form; but even this has exceptions. When I brought my Triumph Bonneville to Japan (in 1978), it had to have a number manually engraved into the frame, and this included the 東 of Tokyo; manual engraving is tough, so they used the same simplication as the Chinese "simplified form", probably because there are all sorts of historical precedents for this sort of thing. In reverse, I live in Tochigi (栃木), and the first character 栃 is a kokuji character "made in Japan"; but Chinese WP also uses it: see 栃木縣.
 * Your first paragraph above is real SKYISBLUE, if not very well put. Any technical vocabulary makes no attempt to be within Jōyō limits.
 * The second paragraph is not very coherent. What is "deign" supposed to mean? Newspapers generally do replace even very well-known characters with hiragana (not katakana) for guideline purposes - I always remember 丼 (donburi; "bowl of rice +"), which always appeared in the newspaper in hiragana, but appeared in most ordinary restaurants and signs etc. This was actually added to the Jōyō list in 2010. But I think most accounts give a misleading impression that Japanese speakers are all aware of these lists: I bet that in practice around 1% of Japanese speakers would be able to say whether 丼 was a Jōyō character or not.
 * Hope this helps. Imaginatorium (talk) 14:31, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I appreciate your feedback a ton! I'll get to incorporating your experience into the prose. Honestly, if I had been a bit more experienced when I started this I would have rewritten this section from scratch—this is a result of me tweaking and pushing the pre-existing text around for a month.
 * I've come across "EKT" (stealing this!) plenty of course, and it's definitely something I'm trying to avoid while working on this article, though of course I hop around the entire, rather long article, and miss things I should've already fixed. I am using 'kanji' when talking about characters being used to write Japanese.  Remsense  聊  14:42, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Shogi § Tsume
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Shogi § Tsume. -- Marchjuly (talk) 22:56, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Taisha (shrine)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Taisha (shrine) that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. UtherSRG (talk) 13:32, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Category:Prefecturally designated historic sites
Hello, Category:Prefecturally designated historic sites contains a number of categories along the lines of Category:Designated historic sites of Aichi Prefecture, which is linked to the Commons category Category:Prefectural Historic Sites in Aichi Prefecture and jawiki Category:愛知県指定史跡, but contains one item, a nationally-designated Historic Site. What is the intention behind these categories? Are they for all nationally-, prefecturally-, and municipally-designated Historic Sites in Aichi Prefecture etc, or should it be Category:Prefectural Historic Sites in Aichi Prefecture? Thank you, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 11:21, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Consensus on members' name order on Infobox?
So, I have been doing maintenance on JO1. Recently, another user changed the list of names on Infobox to based on age. They said it's according the consensus of WP:KO (which I couldn't find on their MOS or Talk Page). But since the article is actually under Japan Wikiproject, I think we can't apply other Wikiproject's consensus. So, now it's back to according to alphabetical order as per Template:Infobox musical artist (the members joined at the same time). However, I saw this on MOS:JA: "In the case of names, alphabetize by family name, not by given name." So, according to that, the list should start with "Takumi Kawanishi" not "Issei Mamehara", is that correct? But I haven't seen this order in other pages of Japanese musical acts (usually normal alphabet, like on Arashi, or age, on newer groups, or based on positions for bands). It's confusing, so I would like to know what the consensus is. Thank you - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 10:00, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't have any opinion on the underlying question of how to order things in infoboxes, but the edit summary given in the reversion to your edit here—that the members are listed by age—is simply incorrect. I noticed this because the names are actually listed in perfect Japanese alphabetical order. Thus there appears to be agreement that alphabetical order should be used, and on the English Wikipedia that would start with Kawanishi as you said. Dekimasu よ! 17:58, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Saiō
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Saiō that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Polyamorph (talk) 19:05, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Date format at Nintendo article
Please see Talk:Nintendo. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:43, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Changing nationalities to Korean
recently has edited Koreans in Japan as well as changing several celebrities' nationalities from Japanese to Korean (i.e. Sonim, Verbal (rapper), Towa Tei, and Miyavi). Pinging please explain your rationale to the WikiProject about your recent edits, and possibly bring this up in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Korea as well to include them in the conversation. lullabying (talk) 00:36, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * hello. Currently, it seems to be used in the English Wikipedia without distinguishing between Koreans in Japan and Japanese people of Korean. These two are different concepts; Koreans living in Japan have Korean nationality, and Japanese people of Korean descent have Japanese nationality.


 * In 1945, Korea was liberated from Japan, and all Koreans lost their Japanese nationality due to the San Francisco Treaty. Among those people, those who could not return to Korea and remained in Japan became Koreans in Japan. On January 29, 1952, the Korean and Japanese governments discussed these issues, and the contents included '1. 'Both Korea and Japan recognize that Koreans living in Japan are citizens of the Republic of Korea and not of Japan.(1. 한일 양국은 재일한국인이 대한민국 국민이며 일본 국민이 아님을 승인한다.)'


 * Additionally, upon inquiring with an official of the Ministry of Justice of the Republic of Korea, they responded that Koreans residing in Japan are citizens of the Republic of Korea under the Constitution.


 * Koreans in Japan are special permanent residents active in Japan and their nationality is Korean. Because they are not Japanese citizens, there are restrictions on things like suffrage, which leads to social problems in Japan. If they acquire Japanese nationality, they are no longer Koreans in Japan, but Japanese people of Korean descent. There is no source at all for the article that some Koreans in Japan included people who became Japanese, and this story itself cannot be found in Korea.


 * To summarize because the article is long, Koreans in Japan are a special case due to the Japanese colonial period.
 * Most of these people were born and live in Japan, so they are misunderstood as Japanese, but in terms of nationality, they are Korean.
 * Gksyy (talk) 02:01, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * You will need to provide reliable sources that every one you change is actually of that nationality, otherwise it's Original Research and WP:SYNTHESIS. If they are referenced as being Japanese you will need a very strong reliable source as a reference to change that to Korean. Canterbury Tail talk 02:16, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * As above, the contents of the 1952 Korea-Japan government consultation, the response of the Ministry of Justice of the Republic of Korea, and the nationality declared by Koreans in Japan serve as the basis for this. I also included a link.


 * From the beginning, he was classified as a foreigner even in Japan, and Yoshihiro Akiyama was a Korean resident in Japan who acquired Japanese nationality in 2001. However, if a Korean resident in Japan is classified as Japanese nationality, there will be a contradiction that 'he is of Japanese nationality but acquired Japanese nationality.'
 * Gksyy (talk) 02:26, 6 November 2023 (UTC)


 * For example, Miyabi's father was a Korean in Japan, but he was a naturalized Japanese citizen and revealed that he was also a Japanese citizen. In this way, Miyabi is a Japanese people of Korean descent and not a Korean in Japan, but in the English Wikipedia, the two completely different meanings of Japanese people of Korean descent and Korean in Japan are used as if they have the same meaning without distinction.Gksyy (talk) 02:37, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Sonim is described as "3rd generation Korean-Japanese" and Rumiko Tani is described as "3rd generation Korean-Japanese." Towa Tei is described as a "3rd generation Korean-Japanese" in this article, but the article mostly describes him as being Japanese. lullabying (talk) 04:34, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Other than the fact that they are Koreans in Japan, there is no source indicating that they have acquired additional nationality. Rumiko Tani is not a Korean in Japan, as her father was a naturalized Korean in Japan. You can check her explanation of this on the Japanese Wikipedia.


 * Additionally, the article may not have sufficient sources as the author may have provided incorrect information. For example, there is another article that says Sonim is a South Korean citizen. Above all, there are several articles in which Sonim revealed that her nationality is Korean in interviews Gksyy (talk) 05:27, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Articles about Koreans in Japan can be found not only in Korea but also in Japan. In these articles, Koreans in Japan are classified as foreigners and are indicated as Korean nationals. Their nationality is listed as either Korea or Joseon. Gksyy (talk) 05:40, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think anyone here requires an explanation of the difference between Korean ethnicity and South Korean nationality (or Joseon stateless status). The key point here is that no one should be assuming the nationality of article subjects without reliable sources to back them up (and these sources must be supplied when the edits are made). Nationality of family members in the 1950s is not evidence of nationality today. Edits without evidence will appear to be pushing a POV, whether the edits in question are being used to "claim" subjects as Korean nationals or "reject" subjects as non-Japanese. Dekimasu よ! 08:30, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * As you can see above, in addition to people, documents of Koreans living in Japan are also discussed.


 * What I am advocating is the proper definition of a Korean in Japan. Koreans in Japan are Koreans living in Japan as special permanent residents. As a basis for this, you can also check the Ministry of Justice of the Republic of Korea's response in 2010 and the House of Councillors site. I also left the source for this in the answer.


 * As you said, you need a source for the person's nationality. However, there is no source for the article saying that they are Japanese. In their writings, they are referred to as Koreans in Japan, and Koreans in Japan are Koreans under the Nationality Act. Conversely, Wikipedia currently states that Koreans living in Japan include Japanese citizens, but there is no basis for this at all. It is strange that an article that properly cites the source is canceled and the content of the article is reverted to one that did not cite the source.


 * The point is that the fact that ‘Koreans in Japan = Japanese’ is wrong. Japanese people of Korean descent, such as Rumiko Tani, are also incorrectly described as Koreans in Japan. Gksyy (talk) 09:16, 6 November 2023 (UTC)


 * This article Koreans in Japan is loosely written. A great example is <>. Living without any gap till your own death... who could be excluded from this property ?  Pldx1 (talk) 11:23, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Any time any person's nationality is mentioned it must be accompanied by a reliable source that specifies what that individual's nationality is or it should not be mentioned. A generic source on X people under Y situation are considered Z nationality is pure original research and synthesis. This is not optional. So no you cannot just decide all of a group of people are X nationality because of your interpretation of some law/precedent etc. Each person much have their own reference that specifically pertains to them and not a larger group. Any changes to a person's nationality or identity without providing a reliable source is considered disruptive editing. Canterbury Tail talk 15:42, 6 November 2023 (UTC)


 * I don't understand. There is no document listing the source of the nationality of any of them, so why should they be labeled as Japanese?


 * Also, as I have said repeatedly, in the first place, Koreans in Japan mean people with Korean nationality, and there is a source for the article saying that they are Koreans in Japan.


 * This does not mean that Koreans in Japan may have Korean nationality, but special permanent residents in Japan with Korean nationality are called ‘Koreans in Japan.’ This is like saying 'I'm not sure if British means a person who has uk nationality.'


 * Also, I am not just making my claims without sources. In the case of Sonim, I wrote an article saying that his nationality was Korean in an interview, and to explain the misconceptions about Koreans in Japan, I wrote an article about Koreans in Japan that is currently being explained in Korea and Japan.


 * However, my claim is not accepted, and they say that the sources I provided are poor, and instead defend the current state of editing without any sources at all. There is absolutely no source for the article saying that the above characters are Japanese nationals, and in fact they even revealed in an interview that they were Korean nationals. Why should the current editing status be maintained?


 * This time I will ask. Please tell me a reliable source that they are Japanese nationals. It is incomprehensible that content with sources is ignored and content without sources is supported. Gksyy (talk) 16:10, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The need for sources goes both ways. If reliable sources don't support their nationality as Japanese, then the claim should be removed. <b style="color: Blue;">Canterbury Tail</b> <i style="color: Blue;">talk</i> 16:28, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Communication doesn't seem to be working properly. A Korean in Japan is a person with Korean nationality. And in the documents of the people mentioned above, there is a source for the article titled Koreans in Japan. Gksyy (talk) 16:36, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * For example, I saw somewhere else that Towa Tei became a naturalized Japanese citizen, but there is no source for this. However, since there are currently records and sources stating that he is a Korean resident in Japan, it is correct to assume that he is of Korean nationality. This is a compilation based on reliable sources. What I am advocating is to correct the incorrect description currently given on Wikipedia. Even Japanese people of Korean descent people who are not Korean nationals are described as Koreans in Japan, and are used without proper understanding of its meaning. Gksyy (talk) 16:48, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Also, I think you misunderstood the article I presented, so I would like to explain. In 2010, the Ministry of Justice of the Republic of Korea did not say that only one Korean resident in Japan in the case was a citizen of the Republic of Korea, but that the Korean resident in Japan was a citizen of the Republic of Korea.


 * The photo is difficult to translate, so if I were to write down the content in the photo, it would be '국적에 관한 임시조례, 제헌헌법, 헌법 등 관련 규정을 종합 검토할 때 재일조선인은 대한민국 국적을 가진 것으로 볼 수 있음'Gksyy (talk) 17:06, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * As I said, I am not just putting forward my claims without any basis. This was based on the contents of the Korea-Japan Agreement, the nationality of Koreans in Japan revealed by the Ministry of Justice of the Republic of Korea, the website for Koreans in Japan in Japan, the Koreans in Japan explained on the House of Councillors website, and the nationality revealed by the Koreans in Japan themselves in interviews. I have provided sufficient and reliable evidence for my claim.
 * The fact that an article described Koreans in Japan as Japanese is not sufficient evidence. Also, if a treaty is old, is it invalid? Afterwards, I could not find anything in the new agreement that would change the nationality of Koreans in Japan from Korea to Japan. In this way, I provided sufficiently reliable sources to prove that Koreans in Japan are Korean nationals, but conversely, I did not provide sufficient evidence to prove that Koreans in Japan are Japanese. Above all, the Ministry of Justice of the Republic of Korea, which is a party to the issue, has already announced that Koreans in Japan are Korean nationals, but ignoring the laws of the country and presenting independent research without sources is truly disruptive editing.
 * 1. Koreans in Japan are people of Korean nationality living in Japan as special permanent residents. Since most of them were born and raised in Japan, they are misunderstood as Japanese, but according to the Nationality Act, they are Korean nationals.
 * 2. The people presented above are therefore Korean nationals. Although there is no source that these people are Japanese, there is a source that they are Koreans in Japan with Korean nationality.
 * 3. In cases where there are texts and sources showing that they have acquired Japanese nationality, such as Yoshihiro Akiyama, they are no longer Koreans in Japan, but Japanese. If, like Rumiko Tani and MIYAVI, their parents are Koreans living in Japan but have already naturalized in Japan, they are not Koreans in Japan.
 * If there are no further objections, I will assume you agree with my opinion. In the first place, it is not right to ignore the current law and arbitrarily change nationality. Gksyy (talk) 05:10, 7 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Much of what you are arguing is not relevant to the way the English Wikipedia uses sources. As you probably know, both North Korea and South Korea have claimed Korean people in Japan as their own citizens; in the absence of evidence of application for a South Korean passport, ethnic Korean people in this situation are usually not considered South Korean citizens in neutral, reliable scholarship, and in the absence of evidence that these people have naturalized as Japanese citizens, they are not usually treated as Japanese in neutral, reliable scholarship. Wikipedia follows reliable sources, and the existence of a treaty between Japan and South Korea does not create a blanket situation for all Koreans in Japan (as you know, since you are aware of the ongoing existence of Chōsen-seki, which can also be used to travel without a South Korean passport).
 * For that matter, if you ask people with Japanese citizenship and Korean backgrounds if they are "not Korean", they will of course reply that they are Korean by ethnicity, but not by nationality. When someone is listed as "Korean" on Wikipedia, it may refer to either nationality or ethnicity depending upon the context. Your writing above often contradicts itself by ignoring the fact that it can continue to be relevant to continue to refer to naturalized Japanese citizens in terms of their ethnicity (and this is true regardless of the Japanese government's rejection of a distinction between ethnicity and citizenship among Japanese nationals).
 * Finally, it is never the case that restating your argument until others get tired of replying is evidence that others agree with your position: WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. You are talking past the editors replying to you.Dekimasu よ! 05:56, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I provided evidence and sources for my claims. But you don't provide any evidence for your claim. There is absolutely no evidence that the Koreans in Japan they claim are Japanese, so I do not know why they accept their claims. Gksyy (talk) 06:05, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Your claims are mostly speculation and personal opinion. Also, I did not present just one piece of evidence, and in addition to Korea, I also presented articles and other evidence regarding Koreans living in Japan explained in Japan, but instead, they ignored them without providing a response.


 * If you provide a reliable source, I will follow their opinion. However, the opinions that have been expressed so far are, 'The agreement is too old,' and 'In some articles, this person was described as Japanese.' It's something like, 'I would probably answer like this,' but I don't understand why my argument is ignored and the above argument is accepted.


 * So, are you arguing that Koreans in Japan should be described as Japanese and should also be categorized as Japanese nationality? Even though some of them even identified themselves as Korean nationals?


 * I cannot proceed further with the discussion due to personal reasons. Lastly, I will follow any claim that is supported by a reliable source. However, I don't know what's wrong with deleting content without sources and editing it with a sufficiently reliable source. I have provided reliable sources from both Korea and Japan. To reiterate, Koreans in Japan do not refer to Koreans, but rather to people of Korean nationality. This is a fact confirmed by both Korea and Japan. Therefore, the contents of the Korean in Japan document must be revised. Also, please cite a reliable source when asserting your opinion. Considering the above opinions, there is absolutely no basis for labeling Koreans living in Japan as Japanese. Otherwise, you should state 'A is a Korean singer in Japan' rather than 'A is a Japanese singer.' Also, since the category is based on nationality, the category must also be modified. I hope we can reach a reasonable result. Gksyy (talk) 06:48, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * This is nonresponsive; I neither made any particular claim here, nor edited any of the articles in question, and I never said that "Koreans in Japan claim they are Japanese". However, unless Zainichi Korean people actively take South Korean nationality, they are not automatically treated as South Korean in either Japan or South Korea, as noted at Chōsen-seki. Likewise we do not assume without evidence that ethnic Korean people have not taken Japanese citizenship. There are currently approximately 450,000 ethnic Korean people without Japanese citizenship who live in Japan, and about 400,000 ethnic Korean people have taken Japanese citizenship in the postwar period. Therefore it is necessary in all cases to cite sources on the individuals themselves rather than making assumptions about their status based on inaccurate blanket interpretations. No one will dispute your edits to individual articles if they are backed by specific, reliable sources. But it is clear that the edits will be disputed if they make unspecific claims along the lines of "X should be listed as South Korean because there was a treaty between Japan and South Korea and we lack sources establishing naturalization in Japan." Dekimasu よ! 21:44, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree with everything @Dekimasu has said. @Gksyy I think you're blending definitions of ethnicity and nationality. Given that establishing nationality can be controversial, please put a halt to this practice until consensus is reached. At this point, consensus seems skeptical of your edits. toobigtokale (talk) 23:14, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
 * 번역기를 돌려 사용하다보니 제 주장이 제대로 전달되지 않은 것 같습니다. 요컨대 재일 한국인은 한국 국적을 지닌 사람을 말하며, 저는 이에 대한 충분한 근거를 제시했습니다. 소님의 경우 자신의 국적을 한국이라고 인터뷰에서 밝혔는데도 저의 편집이 취소되고 일본인이라는 서술 내용이 고수되고 있습니다. 국적이 한국인데 일본의 A라는 식의 현재의 서술은 문제가 있습니다. 또한 Category는 민족의 개념이 아닌 국적에 따는 분류로 일본의 가수 등과 같은 Category는 제거되어야 합니다. 재일 한국인에 일본 시민권을 취득한 경우도 포함된다고 현재 영어 위키백과에 서술되어 있지만 이는 전혀 확인할 수 없는 내용이기에 삭제 되어야 합니다. 재일 한국인은 고려인, 조선족과는 다르게 민족적 개념이 아닌 국적의 개념입니다.
 * 본래 영어 위키백과인만큼 영어를 사용해야 하지만 영어로는 제 주장이 제대로 전달되는 것 같지 않아 한국어를 하실 수 있다고 설명하신분께 글 남깁니다. Gksyy (talk) 14:36, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
 * We have already disagreed with the claim 재일 한국인은 고려인, 조선족과는 다르게 민족적 개념이 아닌 국적의 개념입니다 several times, and shifting languages is unlikey to change our minds. Please do not bludgeon the process. You may be correct that this is partially a problem of translation, since in Korean you are using the word 한국인 which implies nationality (국=country), but on the English Wikipedia "Korean" can refer to either ethnicity or nationality depending upon the context; there is no reason to limit this discussion to 한국인 across all contexts. For that matter you can find many references in Japanese to 在日コリアン in addition to 在日韓国人 or 在日朝鮮人. As for edits regarding explicit references to nationality, again, if you use reliable sources applying to particular people then the edits are likely to be supported by all editors concerned. Dekimasu よ! 06:01, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
 * To others wondering, and to cover WP:ENGLISHPLEASE, this comment by Gksyy is the same as what was said above, with the caveat that Gksyy thinks that the root of the disagreement must be that something was lost in tool-assisted translation from Korean to English. Dekimasu よ! 06:05, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not good at English, so I think there was confusion in language communication. What I would like to argue most about is the definition of ‘Korean in Japan.’


 * I wrote an article citing sources from the document on Koreans in Japan, but lullabying canceled my edits and maintained the current, completely groundless statement that Koreans in Japan include people with Japanese nationality.


 * As I keep saying, I don't understand why you defend articles without sources and ignore articles that provide sources.


 * Additionally, categories are based on nationality rather than ethnicity. You should not be categorized as Japanese simply because you are called Japanese. Gksyy (talk) 12:08, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I will say, if you think your English skills (without using machine translations) is not sufficient to communicate, then perhaps you'd be better editing the Wikipedia in your native language. All other language Wikis desperately need editors. <b style="color: Blue;">Canterbury Tail</b> <i style="color: Blue;">talk</i> 16:18, 20 November 2023 (UTC)