Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Jazz/Archives/2010 1

Harry Betts unsourced BLP
This information was posted on the page of the article creator, a now-inactive Wikipedian. As Harry Betts is a jazz musician, I thought someone here might be able to find something to help this article. Here are some links to find possible online. Thanks! ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe 22:06, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I turned its External Link to an Allmusic biog into inline refs; leaves the article as single-source but enough for a stub I reckon. Given the BLP unreferenced notices which are flying about, worth noting that that an Allmusic or AllAboutJazz link is best added as a ref rather than EL. AllyD (talk) 10:04, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

WP 1.0 bot announcement
This message is being sent to each WikiProject that participates in the WP 1.0 assessment system. On Saturday, January 23, 2010, the WP 1.0 bot will be upgraded. Your project does not need to take any action, but the appearance of your project's summary table will change. The upgrade will make many new, optional features available to all WikiProjects. Additional information is available at the WP 1.0 project homepage. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 03:29, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Request for comment on Biographies of living people
Hello Wikiproject! Currently there is a discussion which will decide whether wikipedia will delete 49,000 articles about a living person without references, here:

Requests for comment/Biographies of living people

Since biographies of living people covers so many topics, many wikiproject topics will be effected.

The two opposing positions which have the most support is:
 * 1) supports the deletion of unreferenced articles about a living person, User:Jehochman
 * 2) opposes the deletion of unreferenced articles about a living person, except in limited circumstances, User:Collect

Comments are welcome. Keep in mind that by default, editor's comments are hidden. Simply press edit next to the section to add your comment.

Please keep in mind that at this point, it seems that editors support deleting unreferenced BLP articles if they are not sourced, so your project may want to source these articles as soon as possible. See the next, message, which may help.

Tools to help your project with unreferenced Biographies of living people
If you don't already have this and are interested in creating a list of articles which need cleanup for your wikiproject see: Cleanup listings A list of examples is here
 * List of cleanup articles for your project

If you are interested in moving unreferenced blp articles that your project covers, to a special "incubation page", contact me, User talk:Ikip
 * Moving unreferenced blp articles to a special "[[WP:Incubation|incubation pages"

If you are interested in watchlisting all of the unreferenced articles once you install Cleanup_listings, contact me, User talk:Ikip
 * Watchlisting all unreferenced articles

Ikip 05:05, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

1920s standards peer review
There's a request here for peer review for the list of 1920s jazz standards. Anyone interested and/or knowledgeable about the subject is encouraged to add comments. Thanks, Jafeluv (talk) 14:13, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Opinions on article?
The article Spank jazz is an unreferenced assertion of a genre based on a track by one non-notable band written by a single-use account. Anyone think it shouldn't be put forward for deletion? AllyD (talk) 20:40, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd say delete it. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 23:03, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
 * After digging around in a futile search for sources, I concur. I've proposed it for deletion.  Skomorokh   23:07, 23 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I've now proposed it for deletion discussion: Articles for deletion/Spank jazz. AllyD (talk) 16:09, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Mini-jazz
(Also posted to Talk:Mini-jazz) I was about to WP:PROD the mini-jazz article, then I looked through the edit history and found that someone (in 2006) had changed the name "Toto Laraque" to "Marco Bottura", which sounds more Italian than Haitian. I've reverted the change. Anyway, Toto Laroque would seem to be a Haitian guitarist of some note, although his website (in French) makes no mention of "mini-jazz". At this point, I am unable to determine whether this is/was an actual genre (notable or not). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 20:15, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I flagged this one for refs some time ago as it looked dubious (but then I know nothing of the geographical area and its cultures). Googling tonight, though, I've found a couple of more solid refs: first through a Septentrional band biog which makes MJ sound like a 60s beat reaction, and then a BBC article giving a band name (Shleu Shleu) and a reference to a Jonathan Demme film. So possibly something there which can be followed into article improvements. As to whether it is a significant Jazz genre for navboxes etc? I doubt it. AllyD (talk) 20:41, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree with AllyD regarding navboxes. FWIW, there's no mention of "mini-jazz" in this Afropop interview (although "Vodou jazz" is mentioned). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:46, 1 February 2010 (UTC)


 * There's some Shleu Shleu on YouTube. Classed as kompa though, rather than mini-jazz. AllyD (talk) 20:47, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Another ref: mention as a guitar-based music in an Allmusic article though again about Compas music. AllyD (talk) 20:51, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Progressive jazz becomes jazz fusion
The vague notion of progressive jazz got discussed here some time ago. In the past week, the former article had been proposed for deletion. Instead it got turned into a DAB page - with jazz fusion being one of the DABs. An unexpected / unintended consequence is that subsequent "clean-up" updates then replacing "progressive jazz" references on pages with jazz fusion - and so Bob Brookmeyer, for one, suddenly found himself spirited into the jazz-rock world! AllyD (talk) 19:42, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Katie Melua undergoing GA reassessment
For GA sweeps, I have a reassessment of Melua here. If you wish to fix the article so that it retains GA status, then do so. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 20:35, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

GA reassessment of Bruce Hornsby
I have conducted a reassessment of the above article as part of the GA Sweeps process. I have found some concerns which you can see at Talk:Bruce Hornsby/GA1. I have placed the article on hold whilst these are fixed. Thanks. Jezhotwells (talk) 19:19, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

GA Reassessment of Nina Simone
Nina Simone has been nominated for a good article reassessment. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to good article quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status will be removed from the article. Reviewers' concerns are here. --Malleus Fatuorum 18:40, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Category:Nu jazz albums?
Please note Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums. Regards, BNutzer (talk) 23:36, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

List of jazz albums
From memory without checking the archives, this article was previously discussed as problematic here It has now been proposed for deletion:see discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of jazz albums.AllyD (talk) 08:00, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Sub-categories
Speaking of sub-categories, I recall that as per some guideline at WP:ALBUM, "Category:Albums by some artist" should be placed within "Category:some genre albums". (I think the idea (correct or not) was that albums should not go directly into "Category:genre albums", for some reason). This leads to a scenario where an artist with many albums may have only done one or two in a particular (sub-)genre, but all of the artist's albums will be categorized that way because of this hierarchy. I am not sure that Category:Jimmy Giuffre albums, Category:Yusef Lateef albums, or Category:Joe Zawinul albums properly belong within Category:Avant-garde jazz albums (or that Category:Albert Ayler albums and Category:Van Morrison albums should go in Category:Jazz fusion albums, or Category:Grant Green albums in Category:Latin jazz albums, etc.). Personally, I think resolving this is a daunting task, and it might be last on the list of anyone's priorities, but there you have it. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 20:17, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
 * See also: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums/Archive 18, Categories for discussion/Log/2007 July 17. (or... don't.) -- Gyrofrog (talk) 20:28, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

References - a nice way to add them (IMHO)
I have lately run into a different and - in my view - witty way to add references to an article: .

Then you can simply use wherever you want to refer to them in the article. I find it kinda nice to have them all in one place with no need to find out where in the text they have actually been placed/used for the first time in order to find out their name when wanting to use them again ... Hope this helps. Cheers, BNutzer (talk) 22:37, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

The same thing works with I too find it much nicer to have short citations in the wikitext instead of lines and lines of reference code. Jafeluv (talk) 22:56, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that! -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:08, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Roger Turner (musician) at Articles for Deletion
Discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Roger Turner (musician). AllyD (talk) 07:57, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Keith Jarrett album "Dark Intervals" at Articles for Deletion
Discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dark Intervals (2nd nomination). AllyD (talk) 13:58, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Unreferenced living people articles bot
Your project uses User:WolterBot, which occasionally gives your project maintenance-related listings.

User:DASHBot/Wikiprojects provides a list, updated daily, of unreferenced living people articles (BLPs) related to your project.

Here is one example of a project which uses User:DASHBot/Wikiprojects: WikiProject_Cricket_articles/Unreferenced_BLPs

There has been a lot of discussion recently about deleting these unreferenced articles, so it is important that these articles are referenced.

The unreferenced living people articles related to your project will be found here: /Unreferenced BLPs

If you do not want this wikiproject to participate, please add your project name to this list.

Thank you. Okip 08:00, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The page currently says that we have none. Jafeluv (talk) 11:08, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Not anymore. BNutzer (talk) 12:41, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
 * To increase the overall number of articles in your project with another bot, you can sign up for User:Xenobot_Mk_V.
 * If you have any questions or concerns, visit User talk:DASHBot/Wikiprojects. Glad you folks are participating! Okip  22:50, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Update: /Unreferenced BLPs has been created. This list, which is updated by User:DASHBot/Wikiprojects daily, will allow your wikiproject to quickly identify unreferenced living person articles.
 * There maybe no or few articles on this new Unreferenced BLPs page. To increase the overall number of articles in your project with another bot, you can sign up for User:Xenobot_Mk_V.
 * If you have any questions or concerns, visit User talk:DASHBot/Wikiprojects. Okip  22:52, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Notification regarding Wikipedia-Books
As detailed in last week's Signpost, WikiProject Wikipedia books is undertaking a cleanup all Wikipedia books. Particularly, the saved book template has been updated to allow editors to specify the default covers of the books. Title, subtitle, cover-image, and cover-color can all be specified, and an HTML preview of the cover will be generated and shown on the book's page (an example of such a cover is found on the right). Ideally, all books in Category:Book-Class Jazz articles should have covers.

If you need help with the saved book template, or have any questions about books in general, see Help:Books, Books, and WikiProject Wikipedia-Books, or ask me on my talk page. Also feel free to join WikiProject Wikipedia-Books, as we need all the help we can get.

This message was delivered by User:EarwigBot, at 22:31, 7 April 2010 (UTC), on behalf of Headbomb. Headbomb probably isn't watching this page, so if you want him to reply here, just leave him a message on his talk page. Earwig Bot ( owner &bull;  talk ) 22:31, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Ashley Morgan (musician) at Articles for deletion
See Articles for deletion/Ashley Morgan (musician). Jafeluv (talk) 07:44, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Featured list candidacy: List of 1920s jazz standards
I've nominated List of 1920s jazz standards for featured list. Comments are welcome here. Jafeluv (talk) 14:54, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Adding WikiProject banner
Would anyone object if I requested to have a bot go through Category:Jazz and its subcategories and add the banner to talk pages that don't already have it? Presumably the bot could also determine whether to designate "class=Stub" based on the presence of a stub template. I think it's probably safe to just ask for the contents of Category:Jazz and all its subcategories, but I am going through them to make sure. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 20:17, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
 * We wouldn't want it to go through the entire category tree, too much "cross-pollenation" I think. See the following section. Meanwhile, I will work on a list of categories. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 20:40, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I have some lists of categories ready (see User:Gyrofrog/jazzcat‎, User:Gyrofrog/jazzcat albums‎, and User:Gyrofrog/jazzcat songs‎ Wikipedia:WikiProject Jazz/Categories). I am thinking to have User:Xenobot Mk V separately go through Category:Jazz albums and Category:Jazz compositions, because the template would take different parameters ("album=yes" or "song=yes", respectively) for those articles.  I have also made requests at WP:ALBUM and WP:SONG to add those projects' banners, as well, if needed. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 23:09, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

If there is no objection, I plan to go ahead with the request to have Xenobot add within the jazz-related categories. I don't think I'll pursue the tagging with the and  templates; those projects already have Xenobot requests in the works. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:27, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Doesn't seem particularly controversial to me. Jafeluv (talk) 19:08, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * To me neither. If possible, it might be useful to have the bot check for new additions and update them regularly (every month or so). BNutzer (talk) 21:15, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, thank you. By the way I have since moved the category listings to Wikipedia:WikiProject Jazz/Categories. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 19:45, 6 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Note that the bot will also inherit classes from other projects - see below for more details. – xeno talk 16:46, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Xenobot Mk V to tag articles in project scope and/or auto-assess unassessed articles
A request has been made at User:Xenobot/R to tag & auto-assess articles in the scope of this project based on these categories and auto-assess the project's unassessed articles.

To auto-assess, looks for a stub template on the article, or inherits the class rating from other project banners (see here for further details).

Feel free to raise any questions or concerns regarding this process. The task is commencing today (based on the consensus above), but the inheritance (which wasn't explicitly mentioned) won't start until after 48 hours (assuming there are no objection). – xeno talk 16:46, 8 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I had already typed my suggestion for inheritance yesterday but cancelled it (out of laziness mostly) ... I think the advantages of inheriting other projects' class ratings are greater than the disadvantages (in case of outdated ratings being inherited). BNutzer (talk) 18:59, 8 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Indeed. Keep in mind that automatically assessed articles will be listed in a category for human review. And they will soon be sorted (via sortkey) in the category by the method of auto-assessment, and, for inheritance, further sorted by class. – xeno talk 19:13, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Possible problems with auto-assessing
Julian Argüelles is assessed as Start by another project (which I would second), has a stub template though. I would consider it nicer, if inheritance would overrule the (outdated) stub template. What do others think of this? Could it be done in another bot run or even be done in the forthcoming inheritance run? BNutzer (talk) 20:22, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Shoot. I forgot to flip the switch. The request filed by Gryo asked for these to be left unassessed. I'll go over the edits already made and see if there's anymore. I flipped the switch on and already caught Talk:Luis Bonilla and Talk:Manu Katché... – xeno talk 20:28, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * 47 edits to undo the stub assessments where start or higher ratings were there from other projects. – xeno talk 20:48, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I would go with BNutzer's suggestion (if that's still possible), i.e. let inheritance overrule the stub template. I guess outdated stub templates are another issue (I found one on Turnaround (music) which is at least Start class, I think (and I've already updated)). Thanks, -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 21:35, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Sure, can do. – xeno talk 21:37, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

On a related note, I thought I remembered reading that any stub template could/should be removed, if the article has an Infobox (or when we add an Infobox). I was certain I had read this at WP:ALBUM, or in that project's Infobox instructions, but now I can't find it. But if this is indeed a criterion, then it could resolve a lot of these auto-stub/class=Start discrepancies. MAnd it may explain why these are already "Start" class - many of the articles are quite short, but do have Infoboxes. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:49, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Had not heard that one, must be a local custom... – xeno talk 16:59, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think an infobox is enough to remove the stub template, at least not according to WP:DESTUB. Often the infobox is itself trivial anyway. Jafeluv (talk) 17:26, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

WikiProjectBannerShell
I would like to suggest that WikiProjectBannerShell is added to talk pages automatically if there are three or more project banners present - and to include its "blp=yes" flag if needed. --BNutzer (talk) 18:47, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) What do others think about that
 * 2) Could Xenobot also do that, and if so, could that process be integrated to the current run (or the rest of it) if we agree on adding WPBS?
 * This would probably take some effort... The main problem is that not all WikiProject banners have a standard name (suchlike ). If they did, it would be much easier. Since they don't, it may be difficult. I will toy around with it, but I don't think it will be ready for the current run. Ideally, this be added as a general fix to AWB. – xeno talk  18:49, 9 April 2010 (UTC)


 * See Wikipedia talk:AutoWikiBrowser/Feature requests – xeno talk 19:15, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
 * FYI I am now adding a banner shells whenever there are 4 or more projects (inclusive of the new tag being added). Thank you very much for the suggestion! – xeno talk 15:29, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You rock, Xeno. Jafeluv (talk) 18:53, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Bot task complete

 * ✅ 12,221 edits (5000 +5000 +2221). Please let me know if you notice any issues. Best regards, – xeno talk 17:34, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you! -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:41, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Unassessed articles below 2500 bytes to receive "stub" rating
To further reduce the size of the unassessed articles category from 3642, it is proposed that assign a "stub" rating (with the length parameter set) to any articles below 2500 bytes (i.e. those in this list). This task will commence in 72 hours unless there are objections to this. – xeno talk 15:29, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

BLP flag for musical groups?
Maybe you find the the discussion Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Musicians interesting. BNutzer (talk) 19:07, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Eddie Lockjaw Davis category and article alignment
See discussion at Categories_for_discussion/Log/2010_May_10. AllyD (talk) 18:29, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * This is clearly correct. I have moved the article to Eddie "Lockjaw" Davis and left a redirect at Eddie Davis (saxophonist).--Mike Selinker (talk) 20:11, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Unreferenced Biographies of Living Persons
The WikiProject Unreferenced Biographies of Living Persons (UBLPs) aims to reduce the number of unreferenced biographical articles to under 30,000 by June 1, primarily by enabling WikiProjects to easily identify UBLP articles in their project's scope. There were over 52,000 unreferenced BLPs in January 2010 and this has been reduced to 32,665 as of May 16. A bot is now running daily to compile a list of all articles that are in both Category:All unreferenced BLPs and have been tagged by a WikiProject. Note that the bot does NOT place unreferenced tags or assign articles to projects - this has been done by others previously - it just compiles a list.

Your Project's list can be found at WikiProject Jazz/Unreferenced BLPs. As of May 17 you have approximately 113 articles to be referenced, a 9.6% reduction from last week. The list of all other WikiProject UBLPs can be found at WikiProject Unreferenced Biographies of Living Persons/WikiProjects.

Your assistance in reviewing and referencing these articles is greatly appreciated. If you have any questions, please don't hestitate to ask either at WT:URBLP or at my talk page. Thanks, The-Pope (talk) 18:16, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Robi Botos at Articles for Deletion
See the discussion at Articles for deletion/Robi Botos. AllyD (talk) 21:09, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Articles for Deletion nomination of Postmodern fusion
See the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Postmodern fusion. AllyD (talk) 19:51, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Jazz lists
For your own reference, and/or as an aid in Wikipedia activities: I was checking out this website, which lists all the four-star ratings in The Penguin Guide to Jazz. It, in turn, refers to other lists: -- Gyrofrog (talk) 20:56, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * A List of Jazz Lists
 * Jazz-L Top 100+ List, previously discussed at WP:JAZZ; see also User:Mel Etitis/Jazz-L top 100
 * Double Time Top 100 Historically Significant Recordings (by Jamey Aebersold)

Miljenko Prohaska
Hello jazz people. I was writing an article about Prohaska, a Croatian/Yugoslav composer, conductor and contrabass player, and according to his online biography Prohaska was mentioned in Leonard Feather's The Encyclopedia of Jazz in the Sixties, which was published in 1966. So if somebody here happens to own that book, I'd be grateful if they could add whatever it says about Prohaska to the article. Thanks! '' Timbouctou (talk) 14:21, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Article that could benefit from a tidying
I happened on Indo jazz, an article that could benefit from improvement. AllyD (talk) 20:06, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Penguin Guide album lists
I've created a couple of lists, they are currently in my userspace. These lists are based on the current (ninth) edition of the Penguin Guide but there's no reason it couldn't include these designations from earlier editions.
 * One of these is a list of albums included in The Penguin Guide to Jazz's "Core Collection:" User:Gyrofrog/Penguin Core Collection.
 * The other is a list of albums that have recevied the Penguin Guide's "Crown" designation: User:Gyrofrog/Penguin Crown Awards.

Wikipedia already has similar lists, such as The 500 Greatest Albums of All Time. My idea for these two in particular is that they could each be moved to the main article space, although I'm having trouble coming up with succinct titles. In addition to this, or as an alternative, we could use this information to build up an attributed listing in List of jazz albums, which is currently indiscriminate (see Talk:List of jazz albums; Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of jazz albums), or a List of notable jazz albums. Finally, IMHO much of what appears in this list meets notability criteria (WP:MUSICBIO, WP:NALBUMS): thus, any musician represented with a red link deserves his or her own article (I think there are three or four of these). I think many of the red-linked albums meet notability criteria, as well, except perhaps for compilations, anthologies, box sets and the like (which do account for a lot of the red links) - these could be handled on a case-by-case basis, but actual albums (e.g. Chris Connor (album)) deserve to be blue links.

More notes: I have rendered names, titles, etc. as found in the Penguin Guide. I have used piped links where these have different names or titles in Wikipedia (aside from where I've done this for disambig. purposes). Along these same lines, I've included catalog numbers as it seems musicians with long careers might have numerous eponymous albums. I had thought about including the year, but gave up (was it recorded over a period of years? recording date or release date? etc.)

I am certain that a couple of mistakes remain (I think there are a couple in the "Core" list that ought to be in the "Crown" list, and I may have actually missed a few) so for now I am leaving these pages in my user space. I welcome your comments, suggestions, etc. Thank you, -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 16:50, 29 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I think it's a good idea. Might I suggest adding release years and maybe making the tables sortable so that they can be browsed by artist, by year or by album, for example? Jafeluv (talk) 16:56, 29 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I might go back and add a column for recording date(s). Release years I'd have to look up elsewhere; they're not part of the Penguin reviews (but there's no reason we can't leave this blank and fill it in later - it's a wiki after all).  I had thought about sortability, though the "Firstname Lastname" formatting might make this less useful. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 16:58, 29 April 2010 (UTC)


 * There's a template for that: sort. Jafeluv (talk) 17:00, 29 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I'll play around with that, thanks. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:08, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Update: I think I've got both of these sufficiently completed so they'd be OK in the main space. I've made some notes about how I set up the lists at User talk:Gyrofrog/Penguin Core Collection. More release dates need to be filled in, and I still wonder if I might have skipped a few in either list. But mainly, what keeps me from moving them is that I'm still not sure what to title these:
 * "List of Core Collection albums in the Penguin Guide to Jazz" (or should "The" be capitalized, since it's part of the book's title?)
 * or more simply,

And:
 * "Core Collection albums in the Penguin Guide to Jazz"
 * "List of Crown albums in the Penguin Guide to Jazz"
 * or,

I'm trying to think of something succinct. I think "Penguin Core Collection‎" and "Penguin Crown Awards‎" are too succinct. Thanks, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 20:53, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * "Crown albums in the Penguin Guide to Jazz".
 * Following up on Gyrofrog's lists and in particular the suggestion that "any musician represented with a red link deserves his or her own article (I think there are three or four of these)" I drafted an article on one of these red links. It is at User:AllyD/Steve Harris (drummer). But when I look at it, I think that, given recent AfDs on the likes of Roger Turner, it could be difficult to sustain against deletion? The same could apply to others currently redlinked, such as Trevor Watt's Amalgam. Thoughts anyone? AllyD (talk) 11:13, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the Steve Harris article would certainly stand on its own. I think having received the "Crown" rating is more than sufficient, but furthermore his obituary (as opposed to a paid obituary) appeared in The Guardian and Independent (note to AllyD: you've got the same Guardian URL for both articles); the Allmusic entry doesn't hurt either. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:45, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I think it easily passes WP:MUSICBIO, even if the guy isn't quite as famous as the other Steve Harris. Jafeluv (talk) 21:15, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

I have moved the lists into the article space: These still need work in the "Recording date(s)" "Release date(s)" column. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 21:52, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
 * List of Crown albums in The Penguin Guide to Jazz
 * List of Core Collection albums in The Penguin Guide to Jazz

Chuck Higgins
Hello, I'm not a member of this project but wanted to alert you to the article for the notable old jazz cat Chuck Higgins. That article is currently in danger of being deleted due to a shortage of easy-to-find sources. I feel that what the article truly needs is expansion, not deletion, but this is not my area of expertise. If anyone from this project is available, consider helping out and see also the associated deletion discussion. -- D OOMSDAYER 520  (Talk|Contribs) 20:55, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Proposed renaming of Category:American jazz musical groups
See discussion at Categories_for_discussion/Log/2010_June_12. AllyD (talk) 09:06, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

The Gramophone Archive
A colleague has informed me that the entire archive of The Gramophone, back to 1923, is available on-line (link). This is mostly classical reviews, but there is some jazz, so it may be of some use. (My friend does note that "It has a well-deserved reputation for stuffiness and this review of Bitches Brew is a case in point: (link) Nonetheless, still a useful resource for reviews set in their proper time context.") -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:35, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Articles for deletion
See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Silkheart Records AllyD (talk) 15:54, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Definitely a "keep", but I don't want to add my comments until I get home, where I can check a few other sources. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:27, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Categories for Discussion
See Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2010_July_13. AllyD (talk) 20:33, 13 July 2010 (UTC) - now concluded. AllyD (talk) 08:07, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2010_July_24 which includes Category:Jazz albums by record label. AllyD (talk) 08:07, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Changes to NEA Jazz Masters page
I am with the NEA's Public Affairs office and would like to recommend the names of the 2011 NEA Jazz Masters awards be added to the NEA Jazz Masters page. Their names are: Hubert Laws, David Liebman, Johnny Mandel, Orrin Keepnews, and the Marsalis Family: Ellis Marsalis, Jr., Branford Marsalis, Wynton Marsalis, Delfeayo Marsalis, and Jason Marsalis.

This information can be verified here: http://www.arts.gov/honors/jazz/2011-NEA-Jazz-Masters-Announced.html Starke arts (talk) 17:16, 19 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for this, I'll add it in a moment. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:32, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅ Done. I also updated the articles for the individual artists; some of these mentioned the award, but in terms of a more general NEA Lifetime Achievement. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 18:30, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Splab
I had a look at this article yesterday while cleaning up various Jazz articles flagged with issues. Though I don't like leaving an article as uncategorised, I don't see it as a "Jazz genre" so took it out that category. I'm tempted towards an Wikipedia:Articles for deletion nomination, though the Splab "word" does google but in various miscellaneous places and not really linking to the article usage in my opinion. As things stand, it's still sitting in the WP:JAZZ project on its Talk page, so I thought I'd ask: anyone see this as rightly in the project - and able to reference? AllyD (talk) 09:17, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with your findings. Probably a candidate for AfD and I don't see it as being within the scope of this project. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 14:48, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Name change?
I think that since blues articles are also under WikiProject Jazz that maybe the name should be changed to Jazz & Blues or something along those lines. --Rock&#39;N&#39;More (talk) 23:29, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I believe blues articles have some overlap with WP:RSM, as well. Speaking of jazz-related subjects, I am wondering if at least some ragtime-related articles are within the scope of WP:JAZZ (for example, Ragtime progression). (Though I wouldn't suggest this as part of a name change) -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 17:10, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

JET Magazine
Another on-line source for articles: Google Books has made available a number of issues of JET. For example, Art Simmons wrote a column called "Paris Scratchpad" (link) that I just used to verify some information about Clifford Jordan. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:47, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Flickr, PD by William P. Gottlieb
"Celebrated jazz artists come to life in photographs by William P. Gottlieb. His images document the jazz scene in New York City and Washington, D.C., from 1938 to 1948, a time recognized by many as the "Golden Age of Jazz". ... "Mr. Gottlieb has dedicated these works to the public domain, but rights of privacy and publicity may apply." flickr, see Commons -- Cherubino (talk) 15:49, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * now there is a Category:Photographs by William P. Gottlieb and a own  . - Cherubino (talk) 23:51, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Curious article
Going through the BLPs I've been at the Patrick Thomas article. It has its current origin in an IP Address's overwrite of an article about another musician which at the least ain't too polite. Then it had assertions about the person having played in the Jazz Messengers and on three Michel Camilo albums which aren't backed up by the info on Camilo's discography. I've removed these for the moment, but I'm wondering about the authenticity of anything here. Can anyone here put some firm basis on this article? Or not? AllyD (talk) 17:04, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm also having a problem with the idea (in the text I deleted) that someone who is basically my age could be a "child prodigy" bassist in the mid-1980s - by which time he'd be in his mid-to-late 20s? Not ringing true. AllyD (talk) 17:33, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Curiouser still: the article actually started life covering a footballer (born 1983) before being overwritten first with information on the conductor (born 1932) then later the double-bassist (born 1958). The only references I can find on the jazz bassist look suspiciously like they are derived from the Wikipedia article, so they verify nothing.  What links here lists two clear references to the Australian conductor, one to Patrick Thomas (actor), and one that is so ambiguous that I can't tell who it refers to.  Should Patrick Thomas be a disambiguation page, with the bassist moved to Patrick Thomas (bassist) or something similar?  --Deskford (talk) 23:06, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I've updated links and cross-reffed both the actor and conductor from the article. I agree that this article could be better turned into a disambiguation page, which could also cover various Pat Thomases (including the improvising pianist even). If it did get recast as a Dab page, I'm unconvinced that a substitute page on this bassist should be recreated, in the absence of anyone locating positive references that establish anything about him and show notability? AllyD (talk) 19:13, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * If the bassist is better known as Traci or Tracie Huntington, then that's probably a better name for the article (I did find a bassist Bill Huntington who has played with Ellis Marsalis). However, Traci/Tracie Huntington didn't turn up anything useful. A distributor's search engine did not turn up anything under any of the three names, FWIW. It does not appear that the bassist is notable if he exists. I'd say set up a disambig. page for the other individuals. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:38, 17 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I've just gone for it and transformed the page into a DAB, with a note on the Talk page about its history. AllyD (talk) 20:18, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Good move, and I think you are right not to create a new page for the seemingly non-notable bassist. Your comment on the talk page makes everything clear.  --Deskford (talk) 20:54, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject namespace proposal
Note that there is a proposal to rename the "Wikipedia:WikiProject ..." pseudo-namespace. Current discussion is at Village pump (proposals). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:39, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Modern Creative
I am considering nominating the Modern Creative article for deletion. I thought I'd bring it up here first, as someone might have some good ideas for improvement (or merging etc.) as an alternative to deletion. As far as I can tell, Allmusic invented this genre/classification, and they are the only ones (of note) to use it. Personally, I think the term is so vague as to be meaningless (here is their page about it). Furthermore, I'm not sure why Allmusic specifies "Modern Creative" as a jazz sub-genre, as there are certainly other types of music that are both modern and creative. One alternative to deletion might be to specify that "Modern Creative is a term that Allmusic uses to describe..." but, as such, I'm not sure that an Allmusic category is inherently notable. Another might be to merge this into free jazz in a "Legacy" section, and explain that "Allmusic describes the musical legacy as Modern Creative..."

I've made comments here and elsewhere (e.g. in July 2007) that we (Wikipedians) have set up a number of articles and categories based on Allmusic's classification scheme, for the simple reason (as far as I can tell) because Allmusic does it that way. The fact that Allmusic uses "Modern Creative" does not lend the term any credibility; the way I see it, if Allmusic uses it, then that's their problem. I'm not sure Allmusic's genre/categorization scheme is something that we ought to emulate. More comments and examples at Talk:Modern Creative. Thanks, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:02, 25 June 2010 (UTC)


 * P.S. I have left a note about this at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music genres as well. Thanks again, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 21:58, 25 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Commented on the article Talk page but I see this is a more developed discussion place on what to do about it. I'd agree with Gyrofrog's proposal to salvage anything that is valuable into Free Jazz / Legacy (properly referenced, of course, as that isn't that that articles strong point) - and then go for deletion on the Modern Creative page itself? Better that than a Redirect which would just be formalising the problem. Then there are the categories... AllyD (talk) 22:05, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
 * (On a somehwat related note, but maybe we want to park this for later) Well speaking of the categories, note how "Avant-garde accordionists", "Avant-garde keyboardist" etc. all roll up to Category:Avant-garde jazz musicians by instrument, but these sub-cats don't actually mention jazz ("Avant-garde jazz singers" being the exception). Obviously avant-garde does not equal jazz, nor is it a jazz sub-genre, as this categorization would imply. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 22:24, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Article for deletion
Please see AfD discussion. I have included an attributed bit about "Modern Creative" in the free jazz article, as per our previous discussion. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 04:36, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Andmoreagain
"Modern creative" is gone... but then I stumbled on Category:Early Creative musicians and its sub-category tree. Feast your eyes on Category:Early Creative pianists for example. Whatever makes these particular people "early"? And even one (Schweitzer) who was not only early but formerly modern too? Anyone see merit in this tree? And anything else of ths ilk lurking out there? AllyD (talk) 18:10, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Category:Modern Creative musicians is still there (with subcats). I had the same feeling about the article free funk (see above), and its related categories, but I am reconsidering this one: at least its a descriptive term, and I've since seen it used outside of Allmusic (in this case, in a Cadence review). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 20:17, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Another issue: As previously mentioned, the "Category:Avant-garde xxx-ists" categories all roll up to "Category:Avant-garde jazz musicians". "Avant-garde" is not the same as "Avant-garde jazz".  For example, John Cage and David Tutor are avant-garde pianists (though neither is currently in this category), but not avant-garde jazz musicians.  Thus, I have begun creating "Category:Avant-garde jazz xxx-ists" categories under "Category:Avant-garde jazz musicians" (and "Jazz musicians by genre"), and removed the existing avant-garde categories from same.  I've also changed the articles' categories to reflect the update.  However, I think there had been previous discussion as to whether we needed articles on both "avant-garde jazz" and "free jazz," so I might have been creating additional categories that we don't necessarily want or need.  I left off with "Avant-garde guitarists" / "Avant-garde jazz guitarists" and I am going to hold off on this for now.  In any case, I don't believe those more general "avant-garde" categories belonged under "avant-garde jazz". -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 17:33, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and finished this, rather than leaving it halfway complete. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:46, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Update: I have nominated the Modern Creative- and Early Creative-related categories for deletion at Cfd (see discussion). Also, it seems even Allmusic is no longer using the term "Early Creative", as their page about it is currently blank. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 23:01, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅ Done. As you may have seen, the Early Creative/Modern Creative categories have been deleted as per CfD outcome. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:34, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Ambox important.svg* D'oh! I missed Category:Modern Creative ensembles when I filed the earlier nomination. I've started a new discussion. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 19:45, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Experimental big bands
List of experimental big bands / Category:Experimental big bands (and its subcategories). There is currently no Experimental big band Wikipedia article. There is, however, an Allmusic entry about it, which leads me to believe that this is another instance of an attempt to do things the way Allmusic does them. (FWIW, Allmusic further differentiates between "experimental big band" and "modern big band" (which has a page but no description).) One thing I'll say in favor of the list and the category is that at least "experimental big band" is descriptive, unlike "modern creative" etc. (Not to sound like a wise guy, but given jazz's "market share," I could see how any big band these days is "experimental," e.g. an experiment in getting paid or not, etc.) -- Gyrofrog (talk) 18:24, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
 * It does feel that there is something distinct being expressed there, much as I'm wary of the "experimental" label. For what it's worth, Joachim Berendt in "The New Jazz Book" discussed most of these bands, from Mingus to Globe Unity, under a section entitled "Free Big Bands" (pages 358-360 of the 1976 edition), which could be another way to refer to them. AllyD (talk) 18:48, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * It doesn't help that a lot of the musicians involved, at least here in Chicago, like to use the extremely & unfortunately ambiguous term "improvised music" for what they play. Some of them say that what they are playing is not "jazz".  (I, a rank newcomer to listening to this stuff, have decided, all by my lonesome, to instead call it "improvised free jazz", to distinguish it from, say, the Grateful Dead, who were a rock band that often improvised.  Yes, I was a Deadhead.) Acwilson9 (talk) 20:33, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Ayako Shirasaki
Hi, a publicist for this artist has created an article. I've been trying to work out whether she is notable or not, but would appreciate some assistance from someone more knowledgable about jazz. There's a discussion at the conflict of interest noticeboard here and more at Talk:Ayako_Shirasaki. Thanks Smartse (talk) 11:02, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Articles for Deletion discussion

 * See Articles for deletion/Swing Unlimited. AllyD (talk) 07:31, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of The Wuz


The article The Wuz has been proposed for deletion&#32; because of the following concern:
 * A search for references failed to find support for the content of this article. There is no mention of notability (some members of a notable orchestra getting together is not notable). Fails WP:N and WP:V

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the  notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing  will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Jeepday (talk) 16:34, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Bent Jædig
I could't find a box for new articles. So I do it here! It's a simple translation from my german article.--Freimut Bahlo (talk) 05:37, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Back on the genre beat
I noticed the article on Straight-ahead jazz. Sets itself up as a contrast with so-called smooth jazz. Also a bit of apparent airbrushng of everything between bop and Wayne Shorter. Other than that ok, and probably better than some of the other neo-genre articles such as Nu jazz (or Phusion!). Thoughts? AllyD (talk) 18:57, 9 September 2010 (UTC)


 * And another aspiring genre: Livetronica. AllyD (talk) 22:07, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Anything valuable in the former could probably be merged into Jazz, while the latter could be merged to Jam band. My $0.02, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:44, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Splab redux
I've added a tag to the Splab article based on the earlier (now archived) discussion. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:40, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Question
hello, i have a question, is Conception a compilation album or a studio album. the infobox said that it was a studio album, but in the text it said it is a compilation album. however i changed it to compilation album. can u correct if its wrong or not? thx.-- ♫Greatorangepumpkin♫ T 14:09, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Atilla Engin
desperately needs attention; some copyediting by someone who is familiar with the subject. pablo 12:51, 18 September 2010 (UTC) edited; badly worded pablo 05:58, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I weighed in with my $0.02 at Talk:Atilla Engin. It could probably use at least another set of (unglazed) eyes. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 23:50, 22 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you, and yes please, WP Jazz - the more the merrier on this one. pablo 05:58, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Jazz articles have been selected for the Wikipedia 0.8 release
Version 0.8 is a collection of Wikipedia articles selected by the Wikipedia 1.0 team for offline release on USB key, DVD and mobile phone. Articles were selected based on their assessed importance and quality, then article versions (revisionIDs) were chosen for trustworthiness (freedom from vandalism) using an adaptation of the WikiTrust algorithm.

We would like to ask you to review the Jazz articles and revisionIDs we have chosen. Selected articles are marked with a diamond symbol (&diams;) to the right of each article, and this symbol links to the selected version of each article. If you believe we have included or excluded articles inappropriately, please contact us at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.8 with the details. You may wish to look at your WikiProject's articles with cleanup tags and try to improve any that need work; if you do, please give us the new revisionID at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.8. We would like to complete this consultation period by midnight UTC on Monday, October 11th.

We have greatly streamlined the process since the Version 0.7 release, so we aim to have the collection ready for distribution by the end of October, 2010. As a result, we are planning to distribute the collection much more widely, while continuing to work with groups such as One Laptop per Child and Wikipedia for Schools to extend the reach of Wikipedia worldwide. Please help us, with your WikiProject's feedback!

For the Wikipedia 1.0 editorial team, SelectionBot 23:12, 19 September 2010 (UTC)


 * One thing that a look at this list highlights is how undeveloped is the Jazz Importance parameter. I'm not a fan of comparatives, but to find Nils Landgren and Jill Scott rated as high importance while Messrs Young, Basie, Parker, Gillespie, Rollins and Dolphy were not at all?!?! AllyD (talk) 16:42, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Or the King of Siam Thailand (sorry), for that matter. I wonder when the Editorial Team made its assessment?  I do recall that the King's article was marked "High" importance because it was grandfathered in from one of the other project banners.  I remember changing it to "Low" some months ago. I think perhaps the same thing happened with Jill Scott.  Actually I wonder if the King and Jill Scott are actually within the scope of this project. On a side note, I am glad to see the existence of the cleanup tag tool (though I can't reach it at the moment), since WolterBot (which used to do this for us) is out of commission (or is it?). -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 16:50, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
 * (Turns out that listing is just for the 0.8 articles, not the same as WolterBot, which may be available again) -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:01, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Correction: The listing did accurately show the "low" rating for Bhumibol Adulyadej article. I think I was simply puzzled to see it at all. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:03, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

BTW I've left a note about this at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.8. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:03, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Categories redux
I just came across Category:Classic jazz musicians and its subcategories. Classic jazz is (and always has been) a red link. Presumably this is some variant of pre-1930s jazz and/or overlaps with Dixieland etc. (See, .) Yet it also suggests Kind of Blue, Time Out, Giant Steps etc. I also found Category:Contemporary jazz musicians, which is almost as nebulous as the "Modern Creative" that we recently discussed, although Contemporary jazz is a redirect to Smooth jazz (which already has its own set of categories). But based purely on the names of these categories (which, given the lack of actual articles, is technically all that we have to go by), jazz music in its entirety could be roughly bisected into one or the other – "classic" or "contemporary" – and then we could fight about the cut-off date. (Both of these are, in turn, sub-categories of Category:Jazz musicians by genre.) -- Gyrofrog (talk) 04:41, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I have just nominated both of these categories (and their respective subcats.) for deletion at WP:CFD/2010 September 22. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:50, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
 * On a related note, I propose changing Contemporary jazz from a redirect to a disambiguation page. Currently it redirects to Smooth jazz but, as the term itself suggests, it can also mean "Jazz from late part of the 20th century and 21st century" . Thus the page would look like this:


 * Contemporary jazz can mean:
 * Smooth jazz
 * Jazz music since the late 20th century


 * -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:18, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, seems like the right thing to do. It should probably also include a brief description of what Smooth Jazz might be (as - believe it or not - I doubt I could find a friend or work colleague familiar with the term). Maybe I live a sheltered life! AllyD (talk) 19:07, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
 * How's this for a description of smooth jazz: "a jazz genre incorporating R&B, funk, rock, and/or pop music styles, as well as a radio format featuring this music." -- Gyrofrog (talk) 21:40, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Or maybe a slight restack to list all the related musical fields together: "a music genre incorporating R&B, jazz, funk, rock, and/or pop music styles..."? AllyD (talk) 07:57, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, looking at the second half, as I understand it, Smooth Jazz radio stations will play "adult-oriented" music from across their related genres, so maybe "... as well as a radio format featuring these styles of music"? AllyD (talk) 08:02, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Coming back to the multiple usages of "contemporary", I notice these recent article edits/comments. AllyD (talk) 08:05, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

FYI, the CfD for these categories has run its course (✅ Done) and the categories have been deleted. I've also changed "Contemporary jazz" from a redirect to a disambig. page (✅ Done). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 22:38, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Another list of records in search of inclusion criteria
I've placed a notice seeking references onto List of jazz fusion recordings, whose preamble states that it is listing albums "considered to be influential by prominent jazz fusion critics, reviewers, journalists, or music historians". As such, it needs some referencing yardstick, much as has been discussed above. Please add views to Talk:List_of_jazz_fusion_recordings? AllyD (talk) 19:15, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Nice to have: category of copyright-freely jazz-standards
I search for music for wikibooks projects. It would be nice if the composer or writer which died 70 years ago, and pieces which copyright has expired, would be easier to locate. For example, I'm very uncertain in songs by George Gershwin, but I could use the evergreen I Got Rhythm very well to explain the rhythm changes. Greetings from Germany --Mjchael (talk) 22:22, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Request for photographs and images
To help address the many requests for photographs People-n-photo-bot has moved article talk pages from Category:Wikipedia requested photographs of people and Category:Wikipedia requested photographs of musicians to Category:Wikipedia requested photographs of jazz musicians if it is in a sub-category of Category:Jazz musicians. Members of this project are invited to address the requests for images listed. Please note that some articles may now have an appropriate photograph and that the needs-photo flag has simply not been removed, this can also be checked using the Image Existence Checker link on the category page. If a page has been incorrectly moved please inform me on my talk page.--Traveler100 (talk) 18:03, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I've started whittling down the false positives (see link). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:35, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I've got the aformentioned list down to 7 articles, all of which either need a photo or (in a couple of cases) could use a better one. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 23:12, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Problem with Template:Allmusic
Please see here. BNutzer (talk) 22:56, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the heads-up. I've left a note on that talk page. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 14:31, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

List of record labels Morgana King recorded with
I am not sure whether to merge or redirect List of record labels Morgana King recorded with to some other article, or simply delete it. I'm not aware that we have such lists for any recording artist. Add'l comments at Talk:List of record labels Morgana King recorded with. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 18:02, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and nominated this for deletion (see AfD entry). We already have List of albums recorded by Morgana King and List of songs recorded by Morgana King, and furthermore these would serve better if merged into a single Discography (and the duplicate info removed from the Morgana King article itself). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 18:38, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

WP:JAZZ template and project scope
Some comments on the template itself, i.e. if and when to include it: Something to keep in mind is that the WikiProject templates are not really for categorizing articles; after all, that's why we have article categories. Rather, the template indicates that an article is within the purview of a particular WikiProject. Based on that, I don't think Bhumibol Adulyadej belongs in WP:JAZZ at all; to put it another way, I don't think we (WP:JAZZ) really have anything to offer in terms of improving or even maintaining that article (as opposed to WP:POLITICS or WP:THAI, for example). As for Jill Scott, Etta James and Al Green, I wouldn't consider any of them to be jazz artists (in spite of the latter recording for Blue Note) but, more importantly, I don't think those articles fall within the purview of this WikiProject (although they would certainly fall within the purview of WP:RSM, but I'm not certain how active that project is). On the other hand I would keep Ray Charles, based on his albums with Milt Jackson and his Newport recordings, thus WP:JAZZ could have something to offer in that department. I wonder if we need to better define the scope of this project, or just point people back to this discussion (I'm not even sure there's an issue, we (or I) may be the only ones fretting over this).

As for article importance, there's no requirement that a WikiProject has to assign importance to articles (see WikiProject Council/Guide/WikiProject); on the other hand, WP:JAZZ has long been set up for it. And as I have to keep reminding myself, "by 'priority' or 'importance' of topics for the overall offline release, we generally mean to indicate the level of expectation or desire that the topic would be covered in a traditional encyclopedia" (see Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Release Version Criteria). This is not the same as considering whether artist "Foo" is an important jazz artist or not. As that assessment is on a project-by-project basis, I assume we're supposed to imagine that we are building a "Jazz encyclopedia." What might be "low" importance in this case might be "top" for, say, WP:RSM. Now, having said all that, I think we are on the right track regarding importance assessment for jazz album articles. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:12, 2 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I've long felt that there were articles flagged on the Talk page which don't belong here but have been reluctant to remove it. I suppose this has partly been cowardice that a fan of Artist X who likes to think they play Jazz as well as Rock will take it badly, but also a lack of objective reason *not* to flag it. One practical reason is now provided by the "Wikiproject Watchlist" where one doesn't want endless edits to irrelevant articles to flit past ones eyes; it benefits from focus on real relevant articles. Gyrofrog's paragraph above is nicely put, to the point of being adaptable into a project policy along the lines of:
 * "The WikiProject Jazz template is not really for categorizing articles; that's why we have article categories. Rather, the template indicates that members of WP:JAZZ may have something to offer in terms of improving or even maintaining the article, so it should be added to articles only with significant jazz content."
 * and stated on the Template talk:WikiProject Jazz? What are others' thoughts on this? AllyD (talk) 11:12, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 * (I know you asked for "others' thoughts" but here goes) I've felt the same way about removing the template, and indeed it has provoked a response; see Talk:Topper Headon (similar response after removing "jazz musician" categories from Charlie Daniels files over at Commons). One other thing to consider that I don't think I previously mentioned: WikiProject Council guidance says that "WikiProjects have sole and absolute authority to define their scopes: A group of editors cannot be forced to support any article that they do not wish to support, or prohibited from supporting any article that they wish to support." -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:41, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and updated the template talk page, as per AllyD's suggestion (before this discussion gets archived). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 22:39, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Category:Contemporary jazz albums
I've just nominated Category:Contemporary jazz albums for deletion (see discussion), using the same rationale for Category:Contemporary_jazz_musicians. If I'd seen this at the time, I would've included it in the old discussion. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:28, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Contemporary jazz
Now that Contemporary jazz is a disambig, could those who supported the conversion (above) help direct links to the correct article per WP:FIXDABLINKS? I took a look myself, but a lot aren't immediately obvious, so I was hoping to get some experts' help. Thanks, -- Ja Ga  talk 02:02, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * D'oh! Yeah, I'll get started on it. My thinking is that when "Contemporary jazz" occurs in the infobox, it may be easiest to simply go with "jazz", as per the instructions at Template:Infobox_Musical_artist. Thanks, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 22:26, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Great! FYI, navigation popups with the popupFixDabs flag set to true is a great help. -- Ja Ga  talk 22:38, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅ Done. I've added jazz dance to the disambig. page; evidently "contemporary jazz" is sometimes used in that context. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:55, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * (And along similar lines, I've just taken care of some remaining red links to Modern creative.) -- Gyrofrog (talk) 22:14, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * On behalf of the WP:DPL project, I thank you. -- Ja Ga  talk 17:59, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Talk page template and the Importance rating
Following from the above discussion on WP 0.8 and the Importance parameter, mabe it is worth setting some kind of objective criterion, at least around when "Importance=top" is appropriate? I'm thinking that the inclusion of an artist or album in the List of Core Collection albums in The Penguin Guide to Jazz could serve as that criterion? AllyD (talk) 18:26, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I've had this in the back of my mind for a while. I usually skip the rating when I tag a talk page with WP:JAZZ.  Apparently, the importance rating is not (directly) how important something is to (or within) Jazz, rather how important it is that it should go in the print/CD-ROM version of Wikipedia.  (At least, that's my take.)  Those might effectively mean the same thing; however, thinking about inclusion in Wikipedia 0.8 causes one to focus a little differently, e.g. "of all the jazz articles, how important is it that Jill Scott be included?"  I think the criterion you've suggested is fine, or alternately, a Crown award = "top," while a Core Collection (or four stars) = "high" (for album articles, of course - I'm wondering what we could use for artists, for starters some justification on the talk page would help). -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 18:48, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Upon further reflection I think your suggestion is better. The Penguin Guide editors themselves see the "Crown" rating as more subjective, and the "Core Collection" as more objective. Thus, I believe the latter is more appropriate as a criterion for judging "Top" importance.  Neither of these are completely objective, by any means, but as opinions go, the Penguin Guide ' s is a notable opinion. (Based on that, perhaps having a "Crown" award should still rank as "High" importance.) I had already ranked The Shape of Jazz to Come and Lenox Avenue Breakdown based on my previous comments; I will go ahead and revise the former article, while the latter is also listed in the "Core Collection" so I'll leave it as-is.  (This has the effect of making the latter the more "important" article, but again, perhaps it's better to rely on Penguin ' s opinion rather than my own.)  I don't have the time to do a bunch of these at once, but as I come across them I'll update them.  I don't think this precludes using some other criteria for rating jazz album articles.  (I figure it's obvious, but just to be sure, the criteria applies to WP:JAZZ, and not other WikiProjects such as WP:ALBUM.) -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 16:33, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Another comment regarding album articles: I believe most box sets probably rank no higher than "Mid," if the constituent recordings have (or could have) their own Wikipedia articles (see The Heavyweight Champion: The Complete Atlantic Recordings). I believe that individual album articles are more important for inclusion in a hypothetical print encyclopedia than the box set that contains them. Exceptions to this might be box sets that present material that is otherwise unavailable, and/or consists of individual recordings as opposed to albums, such as Duke Ellington's Blanton-Webster Band or the JSP sets by Jelly Roll Morton and Louis Armstrong (though neither set currently has a Wikipedia article). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:16, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
 * And another possible criterion: Double Time Top 100 Historically Significant Recordings, compiled by Jamey Aebersold. This has a lot of (but not complete) overlap with the Core Collection. I have already updated the talk pages of Core Collection articles that are not red links (most of them are, though). I am wondering if our importance ratings will become "Top" heavy, but I'm not sure it's a problem, as this is probably weighed against the quality rating (only a few of these are beyond Stub or Start class) as well as importance ratings from other WikiProjects (usually just WP:ALBUM in these cases). -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 22:21, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for looking into this. The importance rating is (as mentioned below) based on the importance of the topic to THIS WikiProject - that's really the only assessment that's practicable.  It's very common for articles to be tagged for a WikiProject with a tenuous connection - WP:Buddhism were similarly complaining about Courtney Love being tagged for their project!  I suspect that most projects could periodically skim through their lists (such as this one and the pages that follow it), and make sure that there isn't anything there that shouldn't be - at least for the more prominent articles (listed on that first page).
 * Regarding the list for Version 0.8, please bear in mind that an article like Bhumibol Adulyadej is included because of its importance to Thailand, not because of its importance to Jazz. When the collection is released, there isn't a separate jazz selection - it all forms part of a general selection.  The main thing we need from you is simply any feedback on specific articles that got overlooked (sometimes because the article got renamed during the selection process so the no. of hits was incorrect, or sometimes if an important-but-poor article was greatly improved after the selection was made).  Sometimes we might have (say) every album by Miles David but one, and you think it would be best to have the complete set.  Likewise we rely on your suggestions for removals; for example, the Wagner project spotted some gross copyright violations and asked us to remove the three offending articles.  There's no need to propose removing something like Bhumibol Adulyadej - the Thailand WikiProject would be outraged if we did that!  Please follow up here in the next couple of days if there are any changes to be made.  Thanks, Walkerma (talk) 07:55, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Understood, I think we were on the same page, but the explanation helps. Note that suggestions for "removing" an article were only in the context of removing it from this particular WikiProject, not from the print version of Wikipedia. As you suggest, one project's "Low" is another project's "Top" and vice-versa, etc. I will try and drop in at the Version 0.8 discussion. Thanks, -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 16:03, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Ben Webster Foundation
This article I created a month ago was tagged today, (three tags,) and also Ben Webster's photo was removed which I'm having very hard time to understand the taggings and the removal of the photo. The editor may not be familiar with Jazz, with non-profit foundations, and with Ben Webster and his legacy. Most of the text I used, from the original Ben Webster Foundation site, has OTRS. I need help. Any thoughts? Thanks. Fusion is the future (talk) 20:54, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Consider this: although we may be allowed to use the Foundation's text, why do we need to mirror the text, verbatim, if it's available on another website? (See also: WP:NOFULLTEXT) The request for 3rd-party sources suggests that a notable foundation would have reliable sources about it, other than the foundation's own website. As for the advertisement tag, organizations tend to write about themselves in a positive light, not a dispassionate or neutral tone. In this case, we're copying the foundation's own text, which (at least at some level) is intended to promote the organization.  Hope this helps, -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 22:08, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, you are right. Of course, we do not need to mirror the given text. I guess, there were very limited options to rewrite the text, so I used the one from the BWF site which has OTRS. I already corrected couple of things, thanks for bringing this to my attention. I will try to come up with different text in one of these days. But really, this foundation is that's all what you get. I translated different point of views from the Danish papers, and this is anything else but advertising or promoting. Just a small foundation, collecting Webster's royalties to honor some talented newcomers along with the ones who are established Jazz artists on the name of Webster's spirit. The editor who tagged the article might not know that. I am not sure if he knows anything about Ben Webster. I will try to discuss with him about that. If you noticed, I already added a ref. from an influential paper from Denmark, Politiken. Thanks again for an insightful help and sorry for responding that late. I am forgetting things lately. Fusion Is the  Future  21:01, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

 in Jazz at AfD
See the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/1915 in jazz (noting that the nomination covers multiple years rather than just 1915). AllyD (talk) 10:00, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

New article
Sorry, but I could find an area for new articles for Tony Campise.--Freimut Bahlo (talk) 15:52, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Not sure what you mean; the article exists. I'll add WikiProject banners to the talk page. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 20:22, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, my englisch is not really good, but I'm just searching for an info box, where the new articles are indicated. So I would announce here my new John Stowell article, a translation from my german version.--Freimut Bahlo (talk) 06:23, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The German wikipedia has several pages where new articles in the scope of a music genre portal are regularly listed, e.g. de:Portal:Jazz/Neue Artikel. BNutzer (talk) 18:59, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's the list, which i hoped to find in the english portal:jazz.--Freimut Bahlo (talk) 21:05, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

New article
Sorry, but I could find an area for new articles for Tony Campise.--Freimut Bahlo (talk) 15:52, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Not sure what you mean; the article exists. I'll add WikiProject banners to the talk page. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 20:22, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, my englisch is not really good, but I'm just searching for an info box, where the new articles are indicated. So I would announce here my new John Stowell article, a translation from my german version.--Freimut Bahlo (talk) 06:23, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The German wikipedia has several pages where new articles in the scope of a music genre portal are regularly listed, e.g. de:Portal:Jazz/Neue Artikel. BNutzer (talk) 18:59, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's the list, which i hoped to find in the english portal:jazz.--Freimut Bahlo (talk) 21:05, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

List of jazz institutions article
Hi all! I noticed List of jazz institutions and organizations (rated top priority) would seem to need some cleanup, proper sectioning, and perhaps pruning per WP:LSC. But more significantly, the list article seems entirely redundant to, or perhaps even a duplicate of, List of jazz institutions. I can't fix it myself at this time, but wanted to do a little better than tagging the articles. &mdash;/M endaliv /2¢/Δ's/ 21:23, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Definitely redundant, at first I suspected a content fork but I need to check both lists more closely. Both were created within a few hours of each other (compare 22:17, 22 September 2007 with 15:49, 22 September 2007).  "List of jazz institutions and organizations" benefits from a more inclusive name, and has seen the lion's share of the editing, but "List of jazz institutions" has better formatting.  I haven't begun to compare the contents (i.e. to see what would need to be merged) and this doesn't address the Linkfarm-ish nature of either list. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 22:56, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I have gone ahead and merged the two pages to "List of jazz institutions and organizations. Technically, this meant redirecting one to the other – there was no actual content to merge, as the shorter list was a subset of the other. The linkfarm issue remains, though. Thanks for bringing this up. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 23:57, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I have pruned anything that did not have a (non-redirect) Wikipedia article. I'd suggest that anything else be supported with a citation other than the organization/institution's own website. I'm not really sure about "Top" importance, but I'll let someone else make that call (or not). -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 00:20, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Template:Jazz
Is there really a consensus for a pink template?♦ Dr. Blofeld  17:38, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject cleanup listing
I have created together with Smallman12q a toolserver tool that shows a weekly-updated list of cleanup categories for WikiProjects, that can be used as a replacement for WolterBot and this WikiProject is among those that are already included (because it is a member of Category:WolterBot cleanup listing subscriptions). See the tool's wiki page, this project's listing in one big table or by categories and the index of WikiProjects. Svick (talk) 20:47, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for this! -- Gyrofrog (talk) 00:14, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I have replaced the WolterBot template on the WP:JAZZ with the new template. WolterBot's old listing is still available at WikiProject Jazz/Cleanup listing. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 18:20, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

A personal thank you
Johnny Pate just asked me to give you a personal thank-you on his behalf. He says that you guys are doing a brilliant job and that he uses you all the time to look up artists. Hope that brings a smile to your faces! (Via. OTRS) PanydThe muffin is not subtle 22:47, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow! -- Gyrofrog (talk) 23:16, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Book that apparently uses our content
http://www.amazon.com/Free-Jazz-Saxophonists-Coltrane-Ornette/dp/1155199030

Free Jazz Saxophonists: John Coltrane, Ornette Coleman, Albert Ayler, Abatte Barihun, Anthony Braxton, Rent Romus, Arthur Doyle, Wally Shoup, Books LLC, ISBN 1155199030, published September 2010. Anyone seen it? Anyone know whether it conforms in terms of licensing? - Jmabel &#124; Talk 06:08, 16 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Apparently, they do credit Wikipedia, see http://booksllc.net/faqs.cfm and scroll down to "Wikipedia is free. Why should I buy a book with Wikipedia content?" The URL within Amazon's "Product Description" actually redirects to Wikipedia's John Coltrane article.  Without actually being able to look inside the book, one can only assume that the books themselves properly give credit, as well.  (For what it's worth, this is not the first time I've encountered something like this, see Wikipedia_talk:Mirrors_and_forks. In that case, however, they did not credit Wikipedia.) -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 19:49, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Another sub-genre
I caught sight of the Folk jazz article, which seems grievously in need of attention - if it is worthy of survival. The 2nd paragraph presents a definition so wide that it spills every whch way. Can anyone improve it? If not, maybe worth discussing on Talk:Folk jazz whether there is a case to retain it at all? AllyD (talk) 20:17, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I had come across this a while back, and left it for the time being. I can certainly think of some examples (Terry Callier for one) but I'm not sure it constitutes a genre.  I'm inclined to delete it, in absence of a good source that describes what it is.  I agree about the second sentence, it could describe a lot of genres in their entirety.  I would think that Category:Folk-jazz musicians and its subcategories are tied to the fate of the article. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 00:49, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Recent edits to the article have referenced it - and made it clear that this is another of those favourites, the Allmusic enthusiasm for subgenre-ism. AllyD (talk) 10:57, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I did a little more editing, mainly formatting. I've said it before and I'll say it again, sometimes Allmusic is downright weird when it comes to music categories, and I believe it is not something Wikipedia should attempt to emulate.  I am not sure how Allmusic comes up with them, but by and large they are the only ones to use them. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 16:11, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
 * While we're here, also consider the unsourced Orchestral jazz and associated Category:Orchestral jazz musicians, Category:Orchestral jazz albums. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 00:53, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Suggested merge to the Big Band article. (Looking at that article, by the way, it is very poorly sourced for such a major topic.) AllyD (talk) 09:42, 20 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Ethno jazz is another. In current form it is a bit challenged: sentences that are poorly structured and convey only vague meaning; flagrent lack of references; bordering on a WP:OR essay. The equivalent French article says it is based on the English one (!) whereas the German one is more substantial, though still reference-lite. There's probably something to be said here, so maybe it is improvable; but is this the right article place for that improved article? AllyD (talk) 20:42, 17 December 2010 (UTC)