Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Jazz/Archives/2018 1

Popular pages
I happened to see a link that led to WikiProject Jazz/Popular pages: "This is a list of pages in the scope of Wikipedia:WikiProject Jazz along with pageviews." This is list of jazz musicians sorted by the number of views that get in one day. I have some doubts about the names included on this list. Why is Diana Ross within the scope of Wikiproject Jazz? Or Barbara Streisand? As far as I know Amy Winehouse recorded one song with Tony Bennett. That doesn't make her a jazz singer. Steely Dan isn't jazz as Donald Fagen and Walter Becker. Here are some entries I have doubts about. –Vmavanti (talk) 01:23, 25 December 2017 (UTC)


 * Adele
 * Fiona Apple
 * Chet Atkins
 * Anita Baker
 * Josephine Baker
 * Ashleigh Ball
 * Basia
 * Aloe Blacc
 * Blood Sweat and Tears
 * David Bowie
 * The Brand New Heavies
 * Cindy Breakspeare
 * Kate Ceberano
 * Chicago
 * Jimmy Chamberlin
 * The Cinematic Orchestra
 * Andra Day
 * Jimmy Durante
 * Justin Guarini
 * Hall & Oates
 * Leon Jackson
 * Jakko Jakszyk
 * Etta James
 * Scatman John
 * Kimbra
 * King Krule
 * Knower
 * Koji Kondo
 * Oscar Levant
 * Madlib
 * Magma
 * Miriam Makeba
 * The Meters
 * Joni Mitchell
 * Gary Moore
 * Meshell Ndegeocello
 * Nouvelle Vague
 * Nujabes
 * Pino Palladino
 * Penguin Cafe Orchestra
 * Pentangle
 * Phish
 * Pete Rock
 * Linda Ronstadt
 * Diana Ross
 * Sade
 * Santana
 * Ximena Sariñana
 * Jill Scott
 * Steely Dan
 * Sting
 * Barbara Streisand
 * The Tenors
 * Studs Terkel
 * Traffic
 * Will Wheaton
 * Amy Winehouse
 * Robert Wyatt
 * Frank Zappa


 * After scanning the Popular Pages list I have previously de-listed a few, mainly songs but sometimes individuals where the jazz-word doesn't occur in the articles. As to your list above, there are a lot who I would consider as having a remote relationship to jazz (and some who I suspect would be personally astonished to find themselves here), but others parts of whose early or later careers have involved jazz clubs / festivals. You particularly mentioned Winehouse but, staying with her example, her background and early NYJO career complicate any clear line. So too Diana Ross - not just her appearance in "Lady Sings the Blues" which I presume gave the original project categorisation but also the Montreaux Ella Fitzgerald Award mentioned in the article text: these again prevent a clear line. We do have to bear in mind the non-exclusionary scope of the project, as well as the awkwardness of the word "jazz" representing almost the whole of popular music at some times, and being a shorthard for everything non- or no-longer mainstream at other times. The Talk Page Project Importance rating is surely the key tool here, and many of those above are already rightly rated low for their relevance to this project. AllyD (talk) 09:25, 25 December 2017 (UTC)


 * I have to go over this point again: "non-exclusionary scope of the project". It isn't that the project is non-exclusionary. It would be odd for an editor of any kind say that they are non-exclusionary, because excluding is what editors do. A large part of what editors do is delete. I see this on Wikipedia: "I'm inclusive. I'm not a deletionist" as though it were a superior moral position. People who say this don't know much about editing. An edit is a change. It can be a change for better or worse, but it's still a change. An editor who never deletes is a useless editor.


 * What the project says, as far as I know, is that one kind of jazz can't be favored over another. So it would be wrong for me to delete Mary Halvorson because she's an avant-garde jazz guitarist simply because I dislike avant-garde jazz. Actually, I've worked on many avant-garde jazz articles. That's the far end of jazz, but it's still considered jazz. That isn't the case with some recent creations and mutations: jazz pop, jazz rap, jazz hip hop, nu jazz, acid jazz. People who know jazz know that these genres are not jazz. It's hard enough debating smooth jazz and jazz fusion, which has been for decades, without tossing in additional dubious terms.

–Vmavanti (talk) 19:02, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm not making a moral judgment or a value judgment. This isn't a contest. No one's giving out awards. You don't get points for being part of Wikiproject Jazz, nor are you kicked in the shins because you're favorite singer or band was removed from the project's lists. It's simply a matter of definition. Genres are partially subjective, but they do have definitions.

–Vmavanti (talk) 00:21, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Jazz pop doesn't even exist as an article; it's a redirect to jazz rock, suggesting that it doesn't really have an identity. I'd go along with shedding articles that mention "jazz" only alongside a qualification that puts it outside the "it's clearly jazz" domain. So, Nujabes could go, as it has only "mixes sampling from hip hop and jazz" (just a bit of sampling), and "blending jazz influences into his songs" (only influences). Similarly, Josephine Baker: just "a symbol of the Jazz Age" (a label for a time period) is about her. And Justin Guarini: just "album of reinvented jazz standards" (a label for a set of compositions). And Anita Baker: "incorporating more jazz elements" (just elements, which is typically an alternative way of saying "jazzy", which shouldn't qualify either). I haven't looked at many of the others. Jazz is so widespread that it would be difficult to find a 'Western' non-classical musician about whom some form of 'jazzy'/'jazz influenced'/'studied jazz'/'played in a jazz band'/'played jazz standards'/'played at a jazz festival' statement could not be made. So, a bit of trimming could be in order. I suggest my "shedding articles" sentence as a principle that could be applied to the list above. EddieHugh (talk) 21:09, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Eddie, it's encouraging to have you agree and contribute. I agree with your remarks. I wrote a long post this afternoon that I will have to trim before posting it. It's about this subject. I've had second thoughts about a few entries. If Scatman Crothers really did scat, he might have to stay. I knew him only as an actor. Jeff Beck I'm still considering. I'm unaware of his fusion work. Jack Bruce, too. Jimmy Durante goes. A comedian, not a jazz singer. Chet Atkins goes, though of course he could play any kind of music he wanted to, because when you're Chet Atkins you can do that. His career was in country music, which was probably a waste of his talent. I'm still working on this first column of this list.

Popular pages one through ten
I created the Talk page for Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Jazz/Popular pages and added the first post about jazz/not jazz. My conclusions about the top ten: –Vmavanti (talk) 19:29, 2 January 2018 (UTC) –Vmavanti (talk) 15:46, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
 * 1) Diana Ross (not jazz)
 * 2) Della Reese (jazz)
 * 3) Barbra Streisand (not jazz)
 * 4) Frank Sinatra (jazz)
 * 5) Woody Allen (uncertain)
 * 6) Seth MacFarlane (jazz)
 * 7) Amy Winehouse  (uncertain)
 * 8) Gregory Porter (jazz)
 * 9) Bing Crosby (jazz)
 * 10) Ray Charles (not jazz)
 * What is the point of forking the discussion to a Talk page other than this one? The discussion has already begun here, and I refer you to that previous discussion regarding both Ross and Winehouse. AllyD (talk) 08:51, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
 * OK.

–Vmavanti (talk) 16:02, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
 * (Reinstating my comment: please do not delete others' contributions to discussions. AllyD (talk) 15:53, 3 January 2018 (UTC)) On Ray Charles, as with Winehouse and Ross, I refer you to the article text, for example the 4th paragraph of Ray_Charles. The Ray Charles/Milt Jackson "Soul Brothers" can easily be audited using Youtube, as can his performances at Newport Jazz Festival. AllyD (talk) 09:01, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Audited?
 * There's a troubling number of "citation needed" templates on that Ray Charles page. I suppose the key point or passage AllyD is referring to is that Ray Charles recorded a jazz album in 1957 and then two albums with Milt Jackson. Is this proof that Ray Charles is a jazz musician? The article repeatedly states Brother Ray's ability to mix genres, and we all know he's great. If someone goes to Wikipedia looking for a jazz musician, should they be pointed to Ray Charles? For me it's always helpful to check AllMusic's opinion. For his style, the closest AM comes to calling him jazz is "jazz blues". I don't know what that means precisely, but I can guess. As editors we have to look at how published sources define him. Sure, it's subjective and debatable, but I'm leaning toward not jazz because those three albums AllyD mentions are just that, three albums, not his whole career.

–Vmavanti (talk) 16:28, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I've written a short essay which I haven't posted yet. I distinguish between representative and exceptional. Looking at the whole article, at reliable published sources, and at a musician's entire body of work, one can ask whether jazz is the norm or the exception. Does the musician dabble in jazz, work in a hybrid genre, mix jazz with other forms? Has their work been described as jazz? Or has it been described as jazzy, jazz-influenced, jazz-tinged, and so on. I tried this tack when debating about Jakko Jakszyk. See the Talk page if you are interested. It shouldn't shock you that my attempts at persuasion were unsuccessful. Looking past my emotion, frustration, impatience, and sarcasm, I still think I made some good points in that thread. The gist of my argument was that Jakszyk's career had been spent in progressive rock. That is the genre that defines him, and there's nothing wrong with that. His forays into jazz were the exception. Dipping his toe into the water. Cf. that article to an article about someone who is more obviously a jazz musician and the differences, to me, are quite obvious. They were not obvious to my interlocutor.

Popular pages continued
It was not my intent to derail the conversation by creating the Talk Page at WikiProject Jazz/Popular_pages, so I'll keep my comments here. To the subject: That page tells me what readers are looking up, and it tells me that they are being given a false idea of what jazz is. Not the end of the world, but it's a disservice to the real jazz musicians. I wonder what names would be on that list after removing Diana Ross and Barbara Streisand and so on. Readers might want to know. A better list would make for more fruitful searches. –Vmavanti (talk) 16:01, 3 January 2018 (UTC) –Vmavanti (talk) 00:44, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I think there is a misconception here. The table is not in article main space and is not what a reader would use to search for information about what is jazz. Such reader queries are via the main article and its Jazz links. So for example, List of jazz musicians is viewed 338 times per day on average. Or perhaps – but more unlikely - someone might approach articles via Category: Jazz musicians with 2 views per day.
 * By contrast, this monthly snapshot is showing which of the most frequently-read pages overall have some relationship to a project. These views do not purport to be presenting a “core curriculum” view of their subject. So, to take another project subject area, core names for Wikipedia:WikiProject Philosophy/Popular pages might be Aristotle, Spinoza, Locke, Hume, Kant, Wittgenstein but they appear between 31st and 329th in the table, which has top-10 entries with a tangential relation to that project. (Another example: 2 of the top 4 in Wikipedia:WikiProject Scotland/Popular pages are members of AC/DC, because of their place of birth.) For me, though, that is ok as the snapshot table is for the interest and possible use of people involved in that project. AllyD (talk) 09:41, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
 * OK. I'm only now seeing your comment.

The Wrecking Crew
There are a lot of what I feel are misplaced jazz templates on this article. While many of these musicians individually were jazz musicians the music that they played collectively as (has been named years later) the Wrecking Crew is not jazz. I would just remove them but, especially seeing the discussions happening here, thought I'd bring it up first. I might also weigh in as to who is and is not a jazz musician, after checking the sources, of course. Carptrash (talk) 19:45, 4 January 2018 (UTC) –Vmavanti (talk) 18:53, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * , I agree. That article is one whose jazz importance I downgraded to low in May 2017 and I recall considering removing it altogether. Reviewing the article, any relation to jazz is just in the backgrounds of a couple of individuals rather than in any of the activity as the Wrecking Crew. Any future enhancement input from this project would be to these individuals' pages rather than the article in question. AllyD (talk) 10:35, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * It is mildly ironic (to me) that many of the jazz musicians who formed the nucleus of the back-up bands (or were just session players) that generated a lot of the rock music that is considered to be classic did not like the stuff that they were creating. It was just a job. Sort of like a guy who worked in a Ford plant who would only derive a Cadillac Eldorado.  But different. Carptrash (talk) 16:27, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I unlinked the header but I agree with you. You can find agreement in the book Conversations with Great Jazz and Studio Guitarists by Jim Carlton. Some of the jazz guitarists who were studio musicians disliked the pop and rock music they played, but it was their job.

Michael Wolff
Can someone check the article 1952 in jazz for the information on Michael Wolff. I've come across Michael Wolff (musician), where the citizenship is American and birth date is 31 July 1952, both contradicting what is provided under 1952 in jazz. Thanks, MT TrainDiscuss 13:59, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

–Vmavanti (talk) 18:23, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Are those "year in" pages still being maintained? I thought that usage was deprecated.

Jazz? Not jazz?
Determining whether a person is a jazz musician might seem like a hair-splitting, academic task, but it's simple most of the time. My approach is to ask questions such as


 * Have all or most of their albums and performances been called jazz by reliable sources?
 * How do critics define them?
 * How do they define themselves?
 * Do they appear in jazz magazines, web sites, and radio stations?
 * Are they signed to jazz record labels? Have they recorded often for those labels?
 * Do they work often with other jazz musicians?

These questions are aimed at defining a body of work. I try to find representative characteristics rather than exceptions. Barbara Streisand at the beginning of her career sang standards. But most of her career has been spent in pop, rock, musicals, and so on. Diana Ross portrayed Billie Holiday in the movie Lady Sing the Blues. But most of her career has been in pop, rock, and R&B. –Vmavanti (talk) 18:49, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Who decides?
I've been caught in a no-win situation in my attempt to learn and then analyze what articles are within the purview of Wikiproject Jazz. On one hand, some have said to me that I need to use sources to decide what articles to include or exclude from the project. Others have said, like one person today, that "the scope of a project is something that's decided by the participants themselves, and not by sources." If that's true, that's great news. That means I get to use my judgment rather than sources, which I can do but it takes a lot more time. I would love to use my own judgment, but I have been repeatedly criticized for it.

This raises the question: Who are the participants in Wikiproject Jazz? There's a list on the project page. But they don't comment on the project's Talk Page except for EddieHugh and AllyD. If the participants want to include articles in the jazz project which are on the fringes of jazz, or which are not jazz at all, then they have to let me know. There ought to be some mechanism for participants to let their feelings known—instead of after the fact, after I've removed the template and incurred the Wrath of Khan because someone's hero is Frank Zappa or Van Morrisson. I know all about Wikipedian flux, but spinning wheels endlessly doesn't interest me. I want to get something done. Let's clean up these articles. –Vmavanti (talk) 23:52, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
 * If you continue to belittle other editors and state that other editors are editing from a non-neutral point of view without providing any evidence then I will seek to have you topic banned from this area. We're not going to use your own judgment, especially when you have an attitude like this. As I've said repeatedly before, the presence of the jazz genre in articles depends on sourced article content. As and  said, the presence of a WikiProject Jazz tag on a talk page indicates the article is of interest to "editors writing and maintaining Wikipedia's articles on all things jazz". Not of interest to you or meeting your definition of jazz. I would also urge you to take note of the statement that, "This WikiProject does not aim to [a]ct in an exclusionary way toward any particular styles of jazz or any jazz musicians." Despite your protestations, it is clear you believe that some artists are frauds who have invaded "your" club and you would like the jazz "badge of honor" to be removed from their pages. You don't seem to get that for the rest of us, the jazz genre/tag is just another factoid that is relevant to the subject. --Neil N  talk to me 14:54, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

–Vmavanti (talk) 15:37, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
 * You responded to my paragraph in the section "Who Decides?" Show me the name of the person I belittled. When you say "If you continue to belittle other editors" what editors are talking about in this section? What are their names?

–Vmavanti (talk) 15:12, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
 * It isn't belittling to say that an editor is biased in favor of Frank Zappa when the editor has already admitted to being a fan of Zappa and has userboxes indicating his preferences. But the debate is harmed by your threats to have me banned when I'm the one following the rules of pursuing consensus. I continue to research this topic. I continue to participate in measured tones in this discussion on this page and with others on other pages. Yesterday another user suggested other avenues, which I am researching. I am not the one issuing threats.

–Vmavanti (talk) 15:12, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
 * As you request here, I gave sourced article content yesterday. I quoted from these sources. I described their content in a neutral tone. Those sources have not been addressed. Instead I was met by hostility, threats, and sarcasm. That's proof that I have been in engaged in pursuing consensus and the others have not. I've read the links suggested to me and I'll read them again. If there are pertinent passages from those links, you can post them here on this page so that everyone can read them and they can be discussed. I did this in another post regarding consensus.

–Vmavanti (talk) 15:12, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Again and again you miss the point about exclusion. The project says it doesn't exclude a form of jazz. This isn't about excluding jazz fusion. It's about in part whether Zappa can be classified as jazz fusion. I have made this point repeatedly. The distinction is clear.


 * "Despite your protestations, it is clear you believe that some artists are frauds who have invaded "your" club and you would like the jazz "badge of honor" to be removed from their pages."
 * I believe the Wikiproject Jazz template should be placed where the project participants want it placed. Who are they? Three are EddieHugh, AllyD, and me. I have discussed these matters with EddieHugh yesterday and AllyD in recent weeks. Who else am I supposed to talk to? If you supply a name, I am willing to talk.

–Vmavanti (talk) 15:27, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I believe the appearance of a genre in an article relies on reliable sources. Yesterday I posted from three reliable sources.

–Vmavanti (talk) 15:42, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Anyone involved is entitled to add or remove the project tags. Most people (everyone?) will use their own judgement when doing so, whether that is sourced-based judgement or not. If a mechanism is wanted or needed to address the question "who decides?", then how about this... If an editor removes the project tags from a page and a certain number (1? 2?) of other editors restores them, then they stay. The usual discussions can continue in attempting to persuade people, but, if that certain number remains unpersuaded, then the tags remain and everyone moves on. Comments? EddieHugh (talk) 15:34, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
 * How is that different from how it currently works? I'm not sure it is. I removed the Wikiproject tag from a Zappa page. Someone reverted my edit. Then we discussed it on the Talk page. Isn't that where things stand now?
 * Yes, that's how it should work, minus the fanboy/fangirl aspersions and insults. --Neil N  talk to me 15:52, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Alternative proposals are welcome, too. But we're getting close to needing something, even it's just at the level of a jazz project-editor honour arrangement: we're all writing about what should be included in what we're writing about, and thus not actually writing/editing those articles! EddieHugh (talk) 16:00, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
 * And again, Vmavanti reverted . I have undone it per wp:NOCONSENSUS. Next time, he'll get a 3RR report. - DVdm (talk) 17:28, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Experimental or Avante?
Hey all - I just approved this article at AfC and I really can't figure out if this group is appropriately experimental or avante. They're regularly referred to as avante but I wonder if it's appropriate to add experimental too? (The article is currently undergoing a significant edit back-and-forth between two editors so it may be easier to read this prose version of the page until it settles down - it was recently turned into a list). Chetsford (talk) 21:56, 17 January 2018 (UTC) –Vmavanti (talk) 17:40, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
 * What do jazz magazines and jazz critics say?

Solo piano jazz albums
Category:Solo piano jazz albums has been revived. There are more than 200 albums in there now and I'm creating more, but please add the category to any album you know of that fits the description (I opt for "most of the tracks are solo piano jazz"). Or create more solo piano jazz album articles! EddieHugh (talk) 20:56, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Now 250! Up to 500 by the end of the year? EddieHugh (talk) 19:34, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Portal:Jazz etc.
A discussion at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals) may be of interest. Looking at Portal:Jazz, the page itself has had a couple of active editors, mainly in 2007 and 2014, but looks a relatively stable view, providing some random selected content and some article stats. It seems to average around 30 page views per day. It is also worth noting that Portal talk:Jazz has attracted a few notifications which would have been better placed here. AllyD (talk) 07:17, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

WikiProject collaboration notice from the Portals WikiProject
The reason I am contacting you is because there are one or more portals that fall under this subject, and the Portals WikiProject is currently undertaking a major drive to automate portals that may affect them.

Portals are being redesigned.

The new design features are being applied to existing portals.

At present, we are gearing up for a maintenance pass of portals in which the introduction section will be upgraded to no longer need a subpage. In place of static copied and pasted excerpts will be self-updating excerpts displayed through selective transclusion, using the template Transclude lead excerpt.

The discussion about this can be found here.

Maintainers of specific portals are encouraged to sign up as project members here, noting the portals they maintain, so that those portals are skipped by the maintenance pass. Currently, we are interested in upgrading neglected and abandoned portals. There will be opportunity for maintained portals to opt-in later, or the portal maintainers can handle upgrading (the portals they maintain) personally at any time.

Background
On April 8th, 2018, an RfC ("Request for comment") proposal was made to eliminate all portals and the portal namespace. On April 17th, the Portals WikiProject was rebooted to handle the revitalization of the portal system. On May 12th, the RfC was closed with the result to keep portals, by a margin of about 2 to 1 in favor of keeping portals.

There's an article in the current edition of the Signpost interviewing project members about the RfC and the Portals WikiProject.

Since the reboot, the Portals WikiProject has been busy building tools and components to upgrade portals.

So far, 84 editors have joined.

If you would like to keep abreast of what is happening with portals, see the newsletter archive.

If you have any questions about what is happening with portals or the Portals WikiProject, please post them on the WikiProject's talk page.

Thank you. &mdash; The Transhumanist  07:43, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

The Lick
Hello fellow Wikipedians and jazz enthusiasts! I've recorded several audio clips of the infamous "The Lick" cliché on guitar and bass (from jazzy to completely metal - my own interpretation). I'm sure some of you will find it useful to illustrate The Lick (music) ( who maintains this article). Skimel (talk) 21:28, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks! They will be useful in the article (just have to find a place to put them). Could you provide a list of them? Wpgbrown talk &#124; contribs 21:29, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
 * The category is Commons:Category:The Lick. Here are some of the files:


 * Skimel (talk) 21:36, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I have included the second one in the list above in the article (along with a image for tabs, please let me know if I made a mistake with it). I have also added the commons category to the page. Thanks for making these! Wpgbrown talk &#124; contribs 22:05, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

Jazz questions and answers
So, I have been working on a jazz piece, and I came across some terms that I don't know. Like, swing in eighth notes, and swing in sixteenth notes or ballad tempo,ans lastly, double time. Could someone please help? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:2C2:400:190:8D10:FB8F:7EA9:DD4D (talk) 18:08, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Try this for swung eighth notes. For sixteenth, opinion varies with the context. 'Ballad' is just 'slow'. Double time: see here. EddieHugh (talk) 13:35, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

AllMusic reviews
I am concerned about AllMusic reviews in jazz articles. I read articles on jazz every day and, in nearly every article, there is one AllMusic review, usually by the same few critics. To me, the critical perspective from AllMusic seems one-sided and needs to be balanced with other views to represent the topic fairly. Also, the review usually does not offer something analytical or historic to the article but rather one critic's feeling that the music is good or bad. I suspect that AllMusic has edited all of these articles for the sake of promoting their brand. I would suggest removing the AllMusic review when no other reviews from different sources are offered. I've tried this and moderators reversed my change, suggesting that I add another source rather than removing the AllMusic review. However, since I couldn't possibly research and edit such an enormous number of articles, what other way is the most effective way to deal with this issue? — Preceding unsigned comment added by AMendelssohn (talk • contribs) 04:07, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
 * It's used because it's readily available, regarded as a reliable source and covers a lot of jazz. If the content is in the Reception section of an album article, then how good the album is, in the reviewer's opinion, will be the main content. If we removed an AllMusic review in the absence of others, there'd probably then be a notability problem. If other reliable sources are available for any album, then please add them. I see no justification for removing AllMusic ones; do you have any evidence for your suspicion? EddieHugh (talk) 10:43, 7 September 2018 (UTC)


 * The frequent reference to Allmusic reviews is not surprising, going back to its pre-www origin as a large body of reviews collated in the "All Music Guide to Jazz". That these were subsequently ported online and extended makes it more likely to be the easy reference of choice, more so than "The Penguin Guide to Jazz", for example. Regarding their use in Wikipedia articles, the emphasis has probably reduced a bit since the star-rating professional review links were moved out of the album Infobox around 8 years ago. I certainly found both Allmusic and AllAboutJazz, vital in the deadlined programme to resolve unsourced WP:BLPs around 2010, and continue to use Allmusic reviews when appropriate. I have also never seen any evidence of spam editing by Allmusic agents. AllyD (talk) 11:10, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
 * as a new user you presumably didn't see this WikiProject Albums discussion several weeks ago, where the reliability of Allmusic as a source was discussed. AllyD (talk) 11:21, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Discussion regarding genres
I noticed this ongoing discussion whch may be of interest to participants here. AllyD (talk) 12:20, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

Before communism (1930–39)
This section has a restrained or doubtful tone which does not accord with other sources I have found, which indicate a vibrant jazz scene in Warsaw.

One such source is the book "Warsaw 1944: Hitler, Himmler, and the Warsaw Uprising," by Alexandra Richie https://books.google.com/books?id=_RoKAgAAQBAJ "Warsaw: 1944"

See in particular, pages 112-115: "Above all, Warsaw revelled in all things from across the Atlantic....  Louis Armstrong and Duke Ellington were popular ..."

Also see this article online, "A History of Jazz in Poland," based on information from polishjazz.com:

"It was also after the First World War that jazz began to spread to Europe and in 1923 the first Polish jazz band was formed by saxophonist Zygmunt Karasinski, pianist/clarinettist Szymon Kataszek, pianist Jerzy Petersburski and drummer Sam Salvano. It was called The Karasinski and Kataszek Jazz – Tango Orchestra and played music in the style of Paul Whiteman and Red Nichols. The band was so successful it toured Europe and the Middle East in 1934-35. Other bands were formed, playing for movies and recording and in 1934, the Polish National Opera staged the opera ‘Jazz Band, Negro and Woman’.

"The growth of jazz was enhanced by many Jewish musicians who left neighbouring Germany for Poland in the early 1930s. Trumpeter Ady Rosner was one of those who arrived to form a swinging orchestra with Polish musicians. When Poland was again invaded in 1939, Rosner escaped to Russia where he went from being the highest paid musician to being made a gulag prisoner before re-emerging to become a driving force in Soviet Jazz.

"As the 1930s came to an end, swinging big bands were as popular in Poland as they were elsewhere and the magazines Melody Maker, Down Beat and Metronome were arriving together with more American recorded music." https://www.sandybrownjazz.co.uk/forumpolishjazz.html

Michael Hurwicz (talk) 19:17, 10 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Is that for the Polish jazz page? If you have reliable sources (a blog is unlikely to be one), then please go ahead and make the sourced changes. There's also the book Jazz in Poland by Igor Pietraszewski. EddieHugh (talk) 20:01, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

I noticed that there are inconsistencies between album release lists in each year in a decade article, and each year article
The album releases under the 1991 section of the "1990s in jazz" article are different from the album releases in the 1991 in jazz article. I already fixed the 1990 problem by combining the lists together. Are the listed albums arbitrarily picked, or is it possible to standardize it by only listing the top 25 most popular albums from each year for example? I think the billboard jazz lists don't go further back than the 1990s. MDaxo (talk) 23:20, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Release years, especially around year-end, can be rather vague in a field where new albums are not accompanied by a singular media event, with a corporate advertising campaign, queues around the block, etc. but gradually slide into shops in various countries. The year printed on an item is not always reliable either, as with books which can be bought and read before the year on the publishing data page. Regarding the query about inclusion criteria, I would be very wary of relying on any sales-volume list but do agree that the items in these year-list articles look somewhat arbitrary. A case might be made for a hard-line position similar to WP:LISTPEOPLE, so that only albums on which there is a oorresponding article are listed. But WP:CSC indicates other possibilities which are inclusive of items which have no article. Though verification via independent references for each item is desirable (on which see also a recent discussion at Talk:2016 in jazz). AllyD (talk) 09:03, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

Inclusion of article on Noah K
I recently wrote an article on Noah K and wanted to suggest its inclusion in WikiProject Jazz. Thank you Artaria195 (talk) 15:31, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Just follow the instructions on the project page, under 'Templates'. Thanks! EddieHugh (talk) 21:00, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Done, thank you Artaria195 (talk) 00:18, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

RFC at Stéphane Grappelli
There is an RFC at Talk:Stéphane_Grappelli regarding whether or not the article should state that the subject was gay. Please provide your perspective! –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 04:06, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Assessment
I told EddieHugh I was going to look at assessments, something I have spent almost no time addressing. Fairly quickly I wrote a list of musicians I thought deserved to be ranked "High" on the importance scale. A list like this will of course be subjective and debatable. I hope the entries are uncontroversial. Nothing is chiseled in stone, and neither my life nor my ego are riding on being "right". I tried to keep the list short. I posted it here because I was uncertain where else to put it. The purpose is guidance, orientation, help for anyone contributing to Wikproject Jazz. –Vmavanti (talk) 20:41, 27 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Ahmad Jamal
 * Art Blakey
 * Art Tatum
 * Artie Shaw
 * Benny Carter
 * Benny Goodman
 * Bill Evans
 * Billie Holiday
 * Billy Eckstine
 * Billy Strayhorn
 * Bix Beiderbecke
 * Bud Powell
 * Buddy Bolden
 * Buddy Rich
 * Cannonball Adderley
 * Charles Mingus
 * Charlie Christian
 * Charlie Parker
 * Chet Baker
 * Chick Corea
 * Clark Terry
 * Coleman Hawkins
 * Connee Boswell
 * Dave Brubeck
 * Dexter Gordon
 * Dizzy Gillespie
 * Don Redman
 * Duke Ellington
 * Earl Hines
 * Ella Fitzgerald
 * Fletcher Henderson
 * Frank Sinatra
 * Frank Trumbauer
 * Freddie Hubbard
 * Gene Krupa
 * George Gershwin
 * Gerry Mulligan
 * Glenn Miller
 * Harry Connick Jr.
 * Herbie Hancock
 * J. J. Johnson
 * Jack Teagarden
 * Jaco Pastorius
 * Jelly Roll Morton
 * Joe Pass
 * John Coltrane
 * Johnny Hodges
 * Keith Jarrett
 * King Oliver
 * Lambert, Hendricks, and Ross
 * Lester Young
 * Lionel Hampton
 * Louie Bellson
 * Louis Armstrong
 * Mary Lou Williams
 * Mel Tormé
 * Miles Davis
 * Nat King Cole
 * Ornette Coleman
 * Oscar Peterson
 * Pat Metheny
 * Peggy Lee
 * Ray Brown
 * Ron Carter
 * Scott Hamilton
 * Sidney Bechet
 * Stan Getz
 * Toots Thielemans
 * Wayne Shorter
 * Weather Report
 * Wes Montgomery
 * Woody Herman
 * Wynton Marsalis

The Great American Songbook
There is a discussion at Talk:Great American Songbook as to how to deal with the uncited lists of songwriters, songs, and singers in that article. Please join the discussion if it interests you. Softlavender (talk) 02:43, 20 December 2018 (UTC)