Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Jazz/Archives/2023 1

==Re: John Serry Sr. - questionable editing and deletions of the article's text on this biography require a review by a more experienced editor in the project to remove warning templates at the top of the page.== Ciao members of the WikiProject Jazz: Perhaps when time permits a more seasoned and experienced editor who has additional expert knowledge of the evolution of Jazz within the United States during the 1930's - 1950's era could review 1) the multiple deletions of text and 2)the questionable doubts raised regarding the relevance of sourcing documentation provided in the article john Serry Sr --  both of which have been executed and posted by User:Eddiehugh. A review of the persistent dismissal of multiple established reference source citations provided in the article and the removal of text from the article without first posting templates calling for additional citations to be provided within the body of the article which would enable other editors to review these requests prior to initiating these deletions unilaterally suggests that he lacks the experience required to undertake a comprehensive reorganization of this mature article. Kindly note that the article dates back to 2005 and has been reviewed by several editorial teams within the Classical Music Project, the Jazz music Project, the Biography Project, the Latin Music Project, the Composers Project and the New York City Project. Members of each of these projects have graded the article at a level of either C or B and have not raised serious questions regarding the reference sources utilized within the article or the specific narrative of the article as a whole. In addition, the article has been translated into several languages including French, German, Spanish German and Italian and has not been cited in any of these countries for questionable sourcing or improper text. These observations suggest that User:EddieHugh might benefit from additional guidance related to the proper collaborative editorial procedure which is the hallmark on Wikipedia and that the warning templates posted at the top of the page can by removed upon completion of a review. Thanks again for your assistance. 160.72.81.182 (talk) 17:19, 16 December 2022 (UTC)MOL

Draft:John Albert Bolivar
I saw the draft Draft:John Albert Bolivar. It looks promising. Thriley (talk) 21:19, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Foley (musician) - now better than stub class ?
It seems to me that the Wikipedia article on Foley (Joseph McCreary) - Foley (musician) - is now much better than stub class. I wonder whether Wikiproject Jazz could review the article's class? Gwedi elwch (talk) 21:16, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Project-independent quality assessments
Quality assessments by Wikipedia editors rate articles in terms of completeness, organization, prose quality, sourcing, etc. Most wikiprojects follow the general guidelines at Content assessment, but some have specialized assessment guidelines. A recent Village pump proposal was approved and has been implemented to add a class parameter to WikiProject banner shell, which can display a general quality assessment for an article, and to let project banner templates "inherit" this assessment.

No action is required if your wikiproject follows the standard assessment approach. Over time, quality assessments will be migrated up to WikiProject banner shell, and your project banner will automatically "inherit" any changes to the general assessments for the purpose of assigning categories.

However, if your project has decided to "opt out" and follow a non-standard quality assessment approach, all you have to do is modify your wikiproject banner template to pass WPBannerMeta a new custom parameter. If this is done, changes to the general quality assessment will be ignored, and your project-level assessment will be displayed and used to create categories, as at present. Aymatth2 (talk) 20:41, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Writing an article on a Jazz Club
Hi All,

I’m a new editor and I’ve been tasked by a local group to put together an article on the Pythodd club in Rochester, NY, USA. Are there any accepted formats for chronicling the history of a jazz club? Trumpetguy19 (talk) Trumpetguy19 (talk) 12:42, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Welcome! When I started I looked at comparable articles to the one I was writing.  You'll probably find a wide variety of styles, often based on what information was available (often not much). For starters, look at The Bitter End, Eddie Condon's, Tropicana Club, and Birdland (New York jazz club).  In my opinion, most of these are rather weak articles because their main (or only) "notability" is that someone played there (not enough in my opinion). A good article on a club is Stork Club.   For a more comprehensive list see List of jazz venues. Good luck!  - kosboot (talk) 13:22, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
 * There's also Smalls Paradise and 500 Club, although how much jazz was in them is debatable. EddieHugh (talk) 17:37, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Peer Review for Blood on the Floor (Turnage)‎
Hi there, I've launched a peer review for Mark-Anthony Turnage's Blood on the Floor. The piece is a fusion of jazz and classical music. I would appreciate comments from members of this WikiProject, as I'm not a jazz musician. Thanks, Schminnte (talk • contribs) 21:07, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Goals section with table
I saw that WikiProject Electronic Music has a section with a table that lets anyone add the current page/pages they're working on in the long term including other details and collaborators, and I thought it would be a cool idea for WikiProject Jazz to do. Here's a link to the section What do y'all think? Carolina Heart (talk) 22:03, 3 June 2023 (UTC)


 * A table like that would work best during an editing drive which had several active participants. I don't think the present WikiProject has that level of sustained participation, so items where someone was seeking help could become lost in an inactive table. It is probably better as is, with people raising occasional questions / requests for help as topics on this Talk page, where a watcher may pick it up. AllyD (talk) 05:30, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The contents becoming stale is the drawback, as AllyD mentions. I added goals to my own user page (and they are looking stale... oops). EddieHugh (talk) 22:10, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Sinatra in Concert
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Sinatra in Concert that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 00:41, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Having trouble finding a suitable public-domain image for Cory Weeds
Hi! I haven't been able to source a good portrait photo that's either public domain, or has a usable license. Frustratingly, everything I've found so far has been reserved. If anyone can find one, I'd be so grateful! Going to work on moving the article up from start-class, when I have the time. ^-^  Atomic putty? Rien!  16:15, 11 July 2023 (UTC)


 * @Atomic putty? Rien! This is a bad photo, but it exists Mach61 (talk) 20:51, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much!!! :))  Atomic putty? Rien!  11:23, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
 * @User:Atomic putty? Rien! Sorry, turns out ND CC licenses still don’t work for Commons Mach61 (talk) 11:35, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Help requested
Hi, I'm reviewing at AfC this draft: Draft:Bukky Leo. The sources aren't enough to show GNG notability, but this person might be notable per WP:MUSICBIO, esp. #5 or #7. Would anyone who knows the genre care to comment? Thanks, -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 08:33, 18 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Based only on what's on that draft page, he doesn't meet #5 - "Has released two or more albums on a major record label or on one of the more important indie labels" - as there's only one possibility (Rejoice in Righteousness) and even that was only an EP. I also don't see #7 - "Has become one of the most prominent representatives of a notable style or the most prominent of the local scene of a city" - as met by the current article text. I'd expect some/more coverage in the national press if he was close to meeting #7; maybe Jazzwise, Jazz Journal, the independent parts of London Jazz News? EddieHugh (talk) 13:31, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Requested Article: Chris Byars
I spend too much time on WP as is, so I don't want to learn how to make a prose article, but please overview the RS I grouped for him at Requested_articles/music/Performers,_bands_and_songwriters Mach61 (talk) 14:30, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Liner notes
Many Keith Jarrett album pages have liner notes copied into a section under the lead. I've tried to repurpose some, but many seem egregious to me, e.g. Bridge of Light (1994):"Music programs are often rife with explanatory notes concerning the technical details of the pieces. This distracts us from entering the state of "listening" and, instead, makes us more likely to live in our head than in our heart. We seem more concerned with whether the program notes make sense than whether we can be touched by the sounds themselves.

Elegy for Violin was written for my maternal grandmother, who was Hungarian and loved music.

The Oboe Adagio was commissioned by the Pasadena Chamber Orchestra and had its first performance there. It juxtaposes pure melody with related counterpoint and is pastoral in essence.

The Violin Sonata was one of those pieces that tested the speed of my pencil against the incoming flow of ideas. In a way, the five movements are related by their seeming un-relatedness.

"Bridge of Light" was commissioned by Patricia McCarty and premiered with the orchestra you hear on this disc. The viola has a big heart and deserves more chances to show it. This piece is a sort of multi-cultural hymn and incidentally demonstrates my love of trumpet and strings.

Actually, all of these pieces are born of a desire to praise and contemplate rather than a desire to "make" or "show" or "demonstrate" something unique. They are, in a certain way, prayers that beauty may remain perceptible despite fashions, intellect, analysis, progress, technology, distractions, "burning issues" of the day, the un-hipness of belief or faith, concert programming, and the unnatural "scene" of "art", the market, lifestyles, etc., etc., etc. I am not attempting to be "clever" in these pieces (or in these notes), I am not attempting to be a composer. I am trying to reveal a state I think is missing in today's world (except, perhaps, in private): a certain state of surrender: surrender to an ongoing harmony in the universe that exists with or without us. Let us let it in.

-- Keith Jarrett" Should these be removed for potential copyright violations? Do they need to be re-written? TlonicChronic (talk) 16:24, 16 December 2023 (UTC)


 * They are unambiguous copyright violations and are to be deleted. Same with unabridged AllMusic reviews Mach61 (talk) 19:36, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you!✅TlonicChronic (talk) 23:03, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Sourcing query
Is Between Sound and Space an acceptable source for reception section quotes? TlonicChronic (talk) 19:14, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think the blog is, based on WP:BLOGS, although it's borderline, given that a book on the same subject has been released by what appears to be a reliable publisher. The key question is: is the writer "an established subject-matter expert"? Besides the book, what evidence is there that he is? EddieHugh (talk) 10:56, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Does "established subject matter expert" mean previously paid music critic? Grillo seems more like a part-time prof that runs a hobby blog than a expert on music (to me), and I think he's the closest to an expert they have. My gut instinct was to remove it but I didn't have any confidence in that. TlonicChronic (talk) 14:52, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * From :
 * I've seen his reviews in DownBeat (for ex https://downbeat.com/reviews/detail/scopes ), All About Jazz, the New York City Jazz Record, and other places, so assumed he's legit. His reviews are also cited in books like The Oxford Handbook of Music and Medievalism and at least one book on Arvo Pärt. TlonicChronic (talk) 17:35, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I've kept all of the BSaS articles, and restored one that was caught up in a Red Letter Media dispute elsewhere. If anyone has a dispute about editorial credentials, I'd be willing to remove them, otherwise, I think they're fine to stay, personally. TlonicChronic (talk) 18:26, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Overlinked instruments
MOS:OVERLINK

I'm struggling to determine (or find a list of) instruments that should or shouldn't be linked. I've been unlinking trumpet, piano, and drums, and linking instruments like the ney, but I have no idea where the middle ground is. I figure saxophone should probably be unlinked, maybe even alto and tenor saxs, but what about soprano or bass? Do I keep bass linked to to avoid confusion with "bass"? Is trombone unlinked and flugelhorn linked?

Could we possible build a list of instruments that are overlinked, underlinked, and optional/context depended? TlonicChronic (talk) 16:18, 14 December 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure linking any given instrument is a big problem, especially in the "personnel" section of album articles, where not linking every instrument would be inconsistent. Mach61 (talk) 17:49, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Is every instrument supposed to be linked? WikiProject Albums/Album article style advice says "Do not link common instruments (see WP:OVERLINK)."
 * It lists a couple, but I don't really know what a common instrument is. In jazz, tenor sax is nearly as common-place as drums, and vibraphone isn't terrible hard to come across, especially in hard- and post-bop. TlonicChronic (talk) 18:01, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * "not linking every instrument would be inconsistent" – no, linking every common instrument would be against MOS:OVERLINK, regardless of where it's done. We don't provide links to be consistent; we provide links to aid understanding.
 * I don't link any forms of the major instruments (at least sax, trumpet, trombone, guitar, piano, bass, drums), unless they're given an unusual name in sources – stritch and manzello come to mind. 'Bass saxophone' is unusual, but it's clear from the name that it's just a saxophone, which is commonplace. In answer to your final question, such a list is unlikely ever to exist and, if one were to exist, it wouldn't be followed. In jazz, it's normal to use 'bass' to mean double bass; 'bass guitar' is used where necessary. Rock/pop isn't going to change to using 'bass guitar' all the time and jazz isn't going to change to using 'double bass' all the time. That's fine. The middle ground is always blurry and on Wikipedia it can take up a lot of time with no useful outcome... link the obscure ones; don't link the common ones; use your judgement for the rest and leave them be if someone else's judgement differs. EddieHugh (talk) 19:21, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you! ✅ Also thank you for all you work over the years. TlonicChronic (talk) 19:43, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Follow-up question: ECM tends to credit bassists as "double-bass"; would you recommend keeping the hyphen, removing it, or simply having it as "bass"? TlonicChronic (talk) 19:14, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Bass. We don't have to copy what a source uses (unless quoting, of course). EddieHugh (talk) 14:17, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you! TlonicChronic (talk) 14:31, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry to butt in here... there's an editor who repeatedly flags the word "bass" with when "tidying" an article. I got tired of reverting their edits, so started using "double bass." Just my two cents... Helen Puffer Thwait (talk) 23:26, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * It seems the only universally agreeable thing is to remove the link and leave it alone TlonicChronic (talk) 01:47, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

The Penguin Guide to Jazz
Could I get help building a concise but agreeable introduction to a PJG quote?

The Penguin Guide to Jazz co-authors Brian Morton and Richard Cook state, "..." is my best attempt.

"The authors of The Penguin Guide to Jazz commented," feels off to me. I like "The Penguin Guide to Jazz states, "...", but is perhaps too little.

(Not to set a universal standard, just to make sure I stay within agreeable boundaries) TlonicChronic (talk) 17:50, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Variants of the last one are my choice, too. Note that the syntax can be simplified: The Penguin Guide to Jazz is normal, instead of The Penguin Guide to Jazz . EddieHugh (talk) 14:21, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I keep doing that—I've been using the visual editor and simply italicizing links. Do I have to switch to the text editor and add the double-single quotation marks, or is there a visual way to not commit the aforementioned syntax crime? Edit: And is there a place where I can request a bot to correct that from my edit history? TlonicChronic (talk) 14:34, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Penguin Guide to Jazz "Crown Award"
Is there a standard way to designate a penguin guide to Jazz "Crown" in the rating box? I've seen 👑 and (which doesn't work, or appears to be different). TlonicChronic (talk) 20:54, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not aware of any standard way to do that -- I think I may have seen some unicode character (or maybe that's what you used above). I haven't noticed it in a while but I think someone used 5 stars to represent the 4 stars plus crown.  -- Gyrofrog (talk) 20:38, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I'd exclude them from infoboxes. The crowns weren't part of their official ratings; they were intended to highlight personal selections. They can be mentioned in the text instead. EddieHugh (talk) 21:19, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ I never thanked you for this answer, that makes a lot of sense to me. TlonicChronic (talk) 17:54, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Follow-up: Does the same apply to "Core Collection" albums, which are (I thought) more editorial and less personal? TlonicChronic (talk) 20:06, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * That was their suggestion for building a representative sample of the recorded music available. Not all of the suggestions got four stars in their regular ratings, so yes, not for the infobox, but possibly for the text. EddieHugh (talk) 22:17, 30 December 2023 (UTC)