Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Jewish history/Archive 1

Participant template
This may seem a little like the four sixteen year olds who think that finding a good name for their band is the key to success, but I started thinking about the right iconography for our participant template. The Magen David is already "taken" by the Wikiproject on Judaism, so I have some options for discussion. It seems to me that we should find an image that is characteristically Jewish but has more to do with history than religion. Here are some ideas - feel free to add:
 * A dreidel
 * A (seven armed) menorah
 * A mezuzah holder
 * A Hebrew character, probably an Alef, though perhaps Chet-Yod (Chai, "life") might be uplifting
 * A scroll

I'm partial to the Chai, as it reflects vitality, surely the most important characteristic of Jewish history. --Leifern 11:53, 17 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I like the chai idea myself. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 13:25, 17 May 2006 (UTC)


 * from a historical perspective the menorah is more of a symbol of the Jewish people. In fact when archeologists find a magen david their first thought is that the site is fake.  This is why on ancient coin you see many menorot but no magen davids. Jon513 19:58, 17 May 2006 (UTC)


 * חי would be lovely. Alternatively, we could use this [[Image:1581 Bunting clover leaf map.jpg|50px|]] famous "clover leaf" map of the world with center in Jerusalem. ←Humus sapiens ну? 23:34, 17 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't feel strongly either way; my only concern about the Menorah is that it has a strong religious connotation - in fact, I would have preferred it rather than the Magen David in the Judaism wikiproject, but that issue is resolved. I think the clover leaf map is awesome and has just the right element of chutzpah to fill me with a little bit of glee. So, how should we decide? --Leifern 23:36, 17 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Hey, why not choose Chutzpa? A couple of arguments for the map: it is a map of the world (signifying the series History of the Jews in ... ), with center in Jerusalem. Its icon was adopted by . ←Humus sapiens ну? 23:41, 17 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Done. And it looks pretty groovy. --Leifern 23:58, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Great! ←Humus sapiens ну? 00:05, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I removed the Jewish-Christian category because it's religious. I was thinking it would be good to steer this project away from religion, but please feel free to revert me. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:33, 18 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Completely agree. While I sifted through the Cats, I found that we have Category:Anarchism and Judaism and Category:Jewish anarchists. Thoughts? ←Humus sapiens ну? 01:38, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree that map looks pretty cool, but I was under the impression it was made and used by the Christian world, so it seems like it is only partially related to Judaism. Am I wrong?- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 12:14, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


 * No idea who used it, it seems unusable as a map. My POV: to me, Jerusalem as the center of the world is the most important here. If JCPA uses its outline as their logo, it works for me as well. Feel free to make a better offer, we can even decide to combine a couple of icons. ←Humus sapiens ну? 19:49, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I didn't really mean they used it as a map or anything, I meant that it was mainly a Christian Medieval practice of including Jerusalem at the center of all maps.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 01:18, 20 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm open for anything better. ←Humus sapiens ну? 05:42, 21 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I think I'm actually fine with anything, I don't even know why I even argued.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 07:37, 21 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Moshe, I believe you are correct. Given the orgin (time and judenrein place) of the woodcut, one can easily conclude that it was made by antisemites for antisemites.  I pointed out as much [here] last month.  Please read it.  I think it's as appropriate a logo for this project as the Palestinian Authority logo would be for the Israel project. Of course, this is just my opinion.  What's yours?Doright 19:46, 22 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Did you see the JCPA logo? In general, I am against retreating every time we meet (or suspect) antisemities. Why should they own our symbols? Anyway, here's an alternative

Feel free to replace if you like it. ←Humus sapiens ну? 09:35, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Humus, there is no retreat. The Woodcut made by and for Christian Antisemites would be a great art object logo for Christian History.  Admittedly, it's a small point, but Jerusalem is important to Christians too and has an entirely different meaning than to Jews. See Crusades  This is no more a retreat than refusing to call The Torah the Old Testament.  It seems what you call not retreating, I call assimilating.  Perhaps you can find a map of Jerusalem that relates to Jewish History rather than Christian History.  Yes, I Did see the JCPA logo.  Interesting, huh? Doright 05:07, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, since [[Image:Hebrew Chai Symbol.png|45px]] seems less controversial, I took the liberty to switch the template image. ←Humus sapiens ну? 09:19, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks Humus. Of the options I've seen, I agree that it's best.Doright 07:05, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Hasidic history artciles on AFD
Many articles, particularly on Hasidic rebbes have been proposed for deletion by User:PZFUN. See [|today's log]. jnothman talk 12:23, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Why PZFUN chose to discredit himself by going after those 36 rabbis (coincindence with lamed vav?) is beyond me. --Shuki 23:19, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

all Jewish summer camps on AFD
Can anyone tell me if wp isn't otherwise lenient on parochial enitities like the entire content of Category: Jewish summer camps he wants deleted? Should the camps he nominated for afd be relegated to a 'list of'? I disagree. --Shuki 23:19, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Dual Jewish History/Judaism wikiproject userbox
Is anyone opposed to creating a userbox that says something like "This user is is a member of the Judaism/Jewish History Wikiproject"?- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 07:41, 21 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Note that there is also WikiProject Jewish culture. ←Humus sapiens ну? 22:47, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Query on voting (was: Introducing myself... )
I've done some lite editing of the article noted above, International response to the Holocaust -- though as I haven't anything substantive to add at present, it remains in need of attention. This is my modest offering by way of introducing myself to the Jewish history project... Deborahjay 15:31, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Welcome, feel yourself at home! Please review the announcements above and consider voting. ←Humus sapiens ну? 20:31, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks! For affiliation's sake (and as a handy link), I've added the Jewish History WikiProject userbox to my User Page :-)
 * Holocaust topics will continue to be my main focus, but others in this Project will no doubt come in time.


 * As I'm a rookie at Wikipedia editing, I find the prospect of voting a bit daunting -- though I'm certainly willing to participate and exercise my good judgment. How might you suggest I familiarize myself with the process? (e.g. guidelines, previous examples, etc.) Deborahjay 05:35, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Ignore if this feels overwhelming. I meant at the top of this page. ←Humus sapiens ну? 08:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Gotcha -- thanks.
 * As it happens, the particular pair of articles noted there now are terms in the contemporary Israeli lexicon that are particular bêtes noires of mine, as an editor and human rights activist. Having glanced at the discussion, I'm giving some hard thought about what, if anything, I may have to contribute there. :-/
 * Deborahjay 16:21, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Nominations for v0.5
Let's think of other important well written articles worthy of Version 0.5 Nominations. The Template:Jews and Judaism sidebar is a good starting point. ←Humus sapiens ну? 20:31, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Concentration camp Theresienstadt [sic]
Regarding Concentration camp Theresienstadt, I've raised some issues about the article's name and the language used therein (concentration camp vs. ghetto). Would appreciate your input on the discussion page there. Thanks, Deborahjay 05:47, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorting stubs (in List of...): bio or not?
I've just discovered the "List of " Jewish history and biography stubs. These are indeed handy tools for me, as I'm seeking articles for expansion in my subject fields of expertise (Holocaust and Israel).

Am just wondering, though: were these lists created by manual insertion of the topics? It seems to me that quite a few individuals' names appear in the "history" list rather than the "bio"... and if this isn't due to some factors I fail to appreciate, might it be worthwhile to move them, for the sake of enhanced utility let alone consistency?

NB: I did note that what's called the "Jewish biography" stubs list is for "people notable in connection with Judaism" [sic]. If that wording is to indicate the Jewish religion in particular, rather than Jewish history in general (i.e. the other list of stubs), I wouldn't have expected to find Mordechai Gebirtig there. Essentially, ''I don't get it! :-/''

If this is simply a matter of reviewing the two lists and manually placing people > bios, all other topics > history, I'll volunteer to undertake the task -- but shall wait for feedback here lest I tamper inadvertently with an existing mechanism as yet unfamiliar to me. :-) Deborahjay 19:51, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

JE citation format
I've been working on converting a lot of Jewish Encyclopedia articles to Wikipedia and I've developed what I think is a good citation format for the reference section that incorporates both the JE article itself and the sources for that article. For example:


 * Gottheil, Richard and Samuel Krauss. "Onias." Jewish Encyclopedia. Funk and Wagnalls, 1901-1906, which cites to the following ibliography:
 * H. P. Chajes, Beiträge zur Nordsemitischen Onomatologie, p. 23, Vienna, 1900 (on the name);
 * Herzfeld, Gesch. des Volkes Jisrael, i. 185-189, 201-206;
 * Grätz, Gesch. 2d ed., ii. 236;
 * Schürer, Gesch. 3d ed., i. 182, 194-196; iii. 97-100;
 * Niese, in Hermes, xxxv. 509;
 * Wellhausen, I. J. G. 4th ed., p. 248, Berlin, 1901;
 * Willrich, Juden und Griechen vor der Makkabäischen Erhebung, pp. 77, 109, Göttingen, 1895;
 * A. Büchler, Die Tobiaden und die Oniaden, pp. 166, 240, 275, 353, Vienna, 1899;
 * J. P. Mahaffy, The Empire of the Ptolemies, pp. 217, 353, London, 1895;
 * Gelzer, Sextus Julius Africanus, ii. 170-176, Leipsic, 1885;
 * Weiss, Dor, i. 130 (on the halakic view of the temple of Onias).

My reasoning is that if you're going to take a public domain article wholesale from some source you should identify the sources cited in that article (saying "this article came from JE" when the article is a verbatim repetition of the JE text doesn't seem very helpful).

I'd like to try and get this accepted as a standard, but obviously not without some consensus on the issue. Does anyone have any thoughts on the issue? Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 12:56, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It's a great idea! Jayjg (talk) 16:54, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Some relevant discussion from my talk page, where I discuss the citation issues with User:Nesher in relation to Jose ben Yochanan:
 * Hi Briangotts, I removed citations from the article as it was taken from the Jewish Encyclopedia. Thats fine. However, does wikipedia need the citations given by the JE? I'd contend not. As it is, the JE has been credited and anyone seeking further info can go there. Wikipedia has its sources (i.e. here the J.E.), while further down the line wikipedia's sources have their own sources (i.e. the JE's numerous sources). I believe I've conformed to WP:CITE. It clutters up the article and I've seen many other removals of such citations from other JE-based articles. See here. 
 * Would you not agree that it would be impractical and bordering on the ridiculous if, apart from every source quoted on wikipedia (e.g. Britannica, Encarta), those sources own sources were quoted? Many thanks, Nesher 16:03, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Your point is well-taken but I think the example you give is inapplicable. An article might be written that cites to or quotes from an Encarta, Britannica, or other encyclopedia article. I totally agree with you that in such a case, it would be silly to list separately all the sources cited in that article (unless, of course, the source itself was also used in the WP article).
 * I think the situation with JE articles is somewhat different. In many cases, due to the public domain status of the JE, JE articles are copied in their entirety and reproduced verbatim on Wikipedia. So what usually ends up happening is that the article on Wikipedia is in fact the JE article. In such a case you can't really say that the JE article was a "source", because in fact the WP article IS the JE article- because of this, I think it's appropriate to cite both the JE and the JE sources in these situations. But I'm open for further discussion and willing to be convinced that I'm wrong.
 * --Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 16:51, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I completely accept the point that many JE articles are copied verbatim - but my point still stands. Do "Heilprin, Seder ha-Dorot, ii" or "Schürer, Gesch. 3d ed., ii. 202, 352, 357" mean anything to anyone but the erstwhile scholar? A resounding NO. However, many users understand the link to the JE below - and if they want to continue in greater depth (and know where to find these dusty volumes!) then they can easily see the citations there. Only every millionth person or so knows what these sources mean (and even less will look them up).


 * Even if the "WP article IS the JE" - which is true at article inception but the archaic language and tedious formats are generally fiddled with and added to over time - why does that necessitate keeping unnecessary text that can be accessed a click away? Many thanks, Nesher 17:12, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I would welcome listing old sources in Notes section - in hope that outdated claims would be either replaced or updated with newer sources & evidence. ←Humus sapiens ну? 21:36, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

"[T]he erstwhile scholar"? Meaning that current scholars have no use for references? If so then, in my view, they are not scholars.

I certainly agree with Briangotts that adding a references section in Wikipedia's format is useful. When we bring over an article like this, we are essentially using it as a first draft. It should then evolve, just like any other Wikipedia article. This means we need to know what is sourced from where, and the fact that it is sourced from the JE is only occationally as relevant as what the JE cited. We should absolutely make it clear what the JE used for sources. In particular, the specific Talmudic references seem to me to be an inherent part of the article, and simply saying that something is Talmudic is no substitute at all.

I also would preserve the inline source notes (or convert them to another format), retaining specificity as to what is cited from where. Remember that one of the main uses of an encyclopedia article is as a starting point for serious research, so these are highly relevant. I do, however, encourage that these be clarified: e.g. REJ should become Revue des Études Juifs, "San. 38a" should become "Sanhedrin 38a", etc. In the Schürer example above, "Gesch…ii" should certainly be lengthened to "Geschichte des jüdischen Volkes im Zeitalter Jesu Christi…vol. 2". In my view, people who are bringing these articles into Wikipedia ought generally to know enough to work that out; contributors should seek help from this project or similar projects if they can't work it out (I've certainly had to ask for help on some Talmudic abbreviations); for most of these (relatively abstruse) topics, we should expect a readership who can understand the long form of that reference, but perhaps not the short form. Your average high school student is not going to look up Exilarch; few people but scholars, of one sort or another, will. - Jmabel | Talk 21:49, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Offline?
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com seems not to be reachable this last few days. Does anyone know what's up? I tried emailing them, no answer, at least not yet. - Jmabel | Talk 18:30, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Featured article candidates/Yiddish language
FAC vote underway. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 20:14, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Featured article candidates/Rudolf Vrba
Current FAC nominee: Rudolf Vrba, who escaped from Auschwitz and brought the first credible information about it to the world. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:01, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Romania during WWII
Dahn has called my attention to the fact that the information about the Romania and the Jews during WWII is scattered over several articles: in History of the Jews in Romania, Romania during World War II, Ion Antonescu, and, for all I know, elsewhere. There really is no main article on the topic, but each of these goes on about it for 4-8 paragraphs. The information in them is in some cases identical, and in others complementary.

(There is also a separate, extensive if somewhat problematic, article on the Iaşi pogrom, which includes background information that is really background to the whole situation of the Jews in that country at that time, but some of which may not be accurate; I've fixed a lot there, but doubt it's all fixed; anyway, the part of that article that is not about the pogrom as such would be at least a fourth location of material.)

I think there should be on central article, and the first three I've mentioned should each have short summaries relevant to their respective topics, with a link to a common main article. I hesitate to call it The Holocaust in Romania because there is more to the story than that (in particular, the remarkably high survival rate of Bucharest's Jews). Maybe Romania and the Jews during World War II? What do others on this project think? - Jmabel | Talk 06:52, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Maybe it is time for Category:Holocaust by country. There is Holocaust in Poland, why not Holocaust in Romania, Holocaust in Hungary, Holocaust in France, etc. ←Humus sapiens ну? 09:01, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Also, Dahn points out that in Romania the Roma were also a significant percentage of the victims. So I think Holocaust in Romania or The Holocaust in Romania would be the possible titles. Shouldn't it be "The", because that is how our main article The Holocaust is titled? - Jmabel | Talk 18:08, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Project Banners?
Is there no project banner for WP:Jewish History? If there is, please let me know, as I think it'd be nice to have on pages such as Fugu Plan and Tzippori. LordAmeth 22:03, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Easy enough to make one and start using it. See for a model. - Jmabel | Talk 18:18, 30 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I have made a new Project Banner template for the project. I'm not sure how to make it add articles it is placed on to a category automatically; but I think it should serve its main purpose - giving the project some visibility and publicity. I realize I'm a brand new member of this project, and I don't want to horn in on others' business; I hope you all find this useful. LordAmeth 00:28, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * In addition, I have evidently mussed up the coding somewhere - anything placed after the template box doesn't appear on the page. If anyone knows more about coding, please help me out with this. B'vakasha. LordAmeth 00:32, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, I just noticed you're saying that's a problem. I thought you had done it intentionally. Do you see that you can show/hide the talk page? SlimVirgin (talk) 00:44, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It looks good. I added it to Talk:Rudolf Vrba. I like how it makes the talk page contents appear and disappear, although I wonder if others might object to that, because new editors might not realize there are comments there if they're hidden. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:43, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Good job at WikiProject Jewish history. ←Humus sapiens ну? 10:41, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It's been fixed by Kirill Lokshin. Should work fine now. LordAmeth 10:44, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Featured article candidates/Night (book)
Night (book), Elie Wiesel's story, is up for featured article status. SlimVirgin (talk) 11:37, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Hasidic dynasties
Hi. I wish to ask for your expertise and help in cleaning up Hasidic dynasties articles, specifically those curently listed in the last section of History of the Jews in Romania. I am not knowledgable in Hasidism, and, although I have improved one of the articles which seemed more approachable, I cannot contribute much to rendering them in proper format (except, perhaps, add proper and relevant links for names of Roamanian localities and events in Romania's history). I have done some major work on the History of the Jews in Romania, and am aiming to make articles in connection to it look the best they can - currently, they are merely chaotic. Many thanks. Dahn 19:28, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Merchant of Venice
User:Jtpaladin (talk • contribs) recently removed from the article Merchant of Venice the statement that "English society in the 1600s was undeniably anti-Semitic," complaining that it was uncited for. As I remarked on the talk page, I'm not sure what one could cite to further show that a country where Jews could not legally dwell (a statement already in the selfsame paragraph) was anti-Semitic.

This had me look at his edits. Other recent work from this charmer includes Talk:Bar Kokhba's revolt. Judging by his edit history, I suspect he took great pleasure in writing the phrase "revolting Jews".

Anyway: does someone have a citation for the should-be obvious in this matter of England circa 1600 being anti-Semitic? - Jmabel | Talk 06:09, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I have a book here called Nazi Anti-Semitism: From Prejudice to Holocaust by Philippe Burrin, The New Press, 2005, ISBN 1565849698, which says (p. 17):


 * It was not until the twelfth century that in northern Europe (England, Germany, and France), a region until then peripheral but at this point expanding fast, a form of Judeophobia developed that was considerably more violent because of a new dimension of imagined behaviors, including accusations that Jews engaged in ritual murder, profanation of the host, and the poisoning of wells."

He then talks a bit about the reasons, and says the situation didn't change again until the Enlightenment. SlimVirgin (talk) 09:35, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks! - Jmabel | Talk 05:27, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Pogrom
I'm adding Pogrom to the project; the article is in serious need of review. --M @ r ē ino 16:26, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Animal rights and schechita
In Animal rights - should a section on "Animal rights and anti-Semitism" make a reference to recent campaigns by animal rights activists to ban kosher slaughter? One editor says this is not an animal rights issue because it has to do with "but to the best way to kill animals for food" however there are numerous sources that assert animal rights activists are involved in these campaigns - see Talk:Animal rights. Farnsworth J 02:54, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Jewish WIKIVERSITY
NEW: On Wikiversity there is now a "Jewish Studies School." Will it become a "duplication" of many things on Wikipedia? What should it's goals and functions be? Please add your learned views. Thank you. IZAK 09:06, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Edits by User:Fduffy to Hebrew Bible articles and topics
For anyone with an interest in all the articles about the Hebrew Bible; Tanakh, Torah and related subjects, User:FDuffy, who is very serious and devoted to the Biblical criticism POV (by his own admission he is a "third year theology student"), has recently resumed serious editing of Hebrew Bible articles and subjects. Please see the extensive edits via Contributions/FDuffy Your involvement, responses and edits would be important at this juncture, especially if you are capable of adding material from classical Judaic sources since most of these articles are lacking the teachings of Judaism, their obvious true source. Thank you. IZAK 11:57, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Conflicting names with Christian and Jewish Orthodoxy
Hi: I posted the following at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy. Thank you. IZAK 03:09, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Hello: This message deals with a number of issues stemming from the unclear use of the word "Orthodox" and "Orthodoxy." In the past Wikipedia has tried to avoid confusion between the names of Orthodox Judaism and Eastern Orthodox Christianity by not using the word "Orthodox" or "Orthodoxy" alone in titles when other qualifying words, such as "Church" or "Christian" (in the case of Eastern Christian Orthodoxy) or words such as "Synagogue" or "Jewish" (in the case of Orthodox Judaism, would help to qualify the usage of the name "Orthodox" or "Orthodoxy" so that any reader or editor on Wikipedia should not be confused by a title and should know from an article's or category's name whether that subject deals with either Orthodox Judaism or Eastern Orthodox Christianity (also called Orthodox Christianity). In the past there has been no objection to inserting either "church" or "Christian/ity" where the Eastern Orthodox Church articles or categories are concerned and I have tried to move in this direction. It is for this reason that I have made the nominations to rename the ambiguous categories at Categories for deletion/Log/2006 September 14. Yet it seems that some editors are not aware of this and I am bringing this to your attention. I will cross-post this message to WikiProject Orthodox Judaism and to WikiProject Judaism for further discussion. The implications for WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy is that it too should be renamed to WikiProject Eastern Orthodox Church or WikiProject Eastern Orthodox Christianity to avoid any confusion with WikiProject Orthodox Judaism. Sincerely, IZAK 02:58, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Destruction of the Temple
Currently, the content of the article Siege of Jerusalem (70) is leaning a bit towards Christian relevance, prophecy, etc. If anyone is familiar with the Talmudic commentary on the destruction of the temple, prophecy of the destruction within the Torah, or the (undoubtedly major) effects it has had on Jewish history and culture, please contribute to this page. Thank you. LordAmeth 08:14, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Host desecration
Any takers for some expansion and sourcing at Host desecration, IMHO preferably to a point where splitting of a separate article Accusations of host desecration against Jews would be justified (just as we have Blood libel against Jews split off Blood libel). Please see Talk:Host desecration. --Pjacobi 20:32, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Old biblical accounts
I have some concerns about User:FDuffy who seems to be knowledgeable and makes longs contributions, but bases too much undue weight on the work of "Finkelstein" unearthing the bible, which he uses as a ref for repeated claims "most modern archelogists" and basically sometimes it contradicts notions of King David, Joshua and other events or persons. I'd be glad if people with high knowledge looked around and tried to balance his edits on these subjects as with United Monarchy, Mount Gerizim etc. Amoruso 00:52, 9 October 2006 (UTC)


 * unbelievably, I didn't see that IZAK had exactly the same concerns and same comment (!) above. Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Jewish history Amoruso 00:57, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Era notation (AD vs. CE) in articles related to Jewish history
Please take a look at Talk:Josephus. Relevant guidelines are WP:MOSDATE. ←Humus sapiens ну? 00:49, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Jewish history in Eretz Yisrael after Bar Kochva
My dream is to make a really good article detailing everything that went through on the Jewish community, stats, wars and so on. My request is that someone that has knowledge in the area, plesae expand on this section Jewish history which I think is extremely important, or even start the article yourself and let me know... some information already exists in Category:Jewish-Roman wars and History of the Jews and the Crusades as well as a lot in the Timeline of Jewish history. Thanks. Amoruso 20:38, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Why isn't there an article History of Jews in Eretz Yisrael? Beit Or 21:23, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmm, good question. Perhaps it should be History of the Jews in the Land of Israel, as we have whole series on "History of the Jews in X", including even History of the Jews in Japan (which I have nothing against). ←Humus sapiens ну? 23:06, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The reason that such an article doesn't exist is just because no-body, unfortunately, has written it yet :) The thing is the history before Bar Kochva is depicted in here History of ancient Israel and Judah . According to the template it's indeed missing : and stuck in the history. it's complicated, there should probably be History of the Jews in the Land of Israel from which the first section will deal with History of ancient Israel and Judah  and redirect there.  Amoruso 23:07, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I started an article on the subject. I ask and invite everyone to make it a really good article. I've put a draft version at User:Amoruso/History of the Jews in the Land of Israel where we can then move it to the page when it's completed, so it won't be attacked by anyone until then... Please help improve and make this page valuable. :) Amoruso 18:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Moriah
Needs total re-write not from the Finkelstein-Fduffy Point of View.... Amoruso 05:41, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Jews in apostasy
Jews in apostasy article needs attention. IZAK 10:49, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Persian Jews
The article Persian Jews is coming under fire by a lot of trolls who are trying to subvert and deny the Jewish history in Persia and Iran. We need to mobilize there and be prepared to confirm the information there. Valley2city 20:51, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Hayim Greenberg
The article Hayim Greenberg generally needs improvement and expansion, as well as proof of notability. Perhaps someone could add some of the material from the corresponding article he:חיים גרינברג in the Hebrew Wikipedia. (I was mistaken. There does not seem to be a corresponding article in the Hebrew Wikipedia, although there probably should be.) The article was created by User:Sheynhertz-Unbayg, who is now banned. Some of the other articles listed at Special:Contributions/Sheynhertz-Unbayg may also require work. --TruthbringerToronto (Talk | contribs) 04:03, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Project directory
Hello. The WikiProject Council has recently updated the WikiProject Council/Directory. This new directory includes a variety of categories and subcategories which will, with luck, potentially draw new members to the projects who are interested in those specific subjects. Please review the directory and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope that all the changes to the directory can be finished by the first of next month. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 16:17, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Naming issue: Bar Kohkba
In Simon bar Kokhba, the very first mention of the name was recently changed to Shimon bar Kochva. I suppose "Shimon" is technically more correct, and I'm not at all sure about "Kochva", but "Simon bar Kokhba" is a much more normal designation in English. We don't start off the Moses article by writing Moishe. Anyway, I imagine there are conventions for what we do with ancient Hebrew names, I don't know those conventions, and I figure someone on this WikiProject will. - Jmabel | Talk 06:25, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Agree. There is Naming conventions (Hebrew) and there was/is/should be some effort to add it to WP:MOS. ←Humus sapiens ну? 02:01, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Jewry
Recently, without (as far as I can tell) any clear consensus, numerous articles have been renamed to get the word "Jewry" into the title. I don't like it. For starters, a "Jewry" suggests a single community under a rabbinate. For another, the word is somewhat archaic. A recent example is that for some unknown reason the talk page of American Jews was at Talk:American Jewry. I moved it back.

I would like to see a consensus on this in this WikiProject. I myself would like to see the consensus be against this term, but most important there should be a consensus. - Jmabel | Talk 09:13, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Even though I don't think there is something wrong with the word itself, I don't like it either. ←Humus sapiens ну? 02:10, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

CfD Anti-Semitic people
Hi: See Categories for deletion/Log/2006 November 23. Thank you. IZAK 10:45, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Auschwitz
Hi; I am not Jewish; I am in fact Roman Catholic. But I have a deep and abiding loathing of the Nazi regime in Germany, and have made a large number of edits to both the Auschwitz article and to its talk page; and I have been to the camp. Am I welcome? --Anthony.bradbury 00:49, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Sure you are welcome! As WP:JH says, "Our membership is informal. One doesn't have to be Jewish to join." ←Humus sapiens ну? 02:05, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

The explicitly numbered, alphabetized list of members does not exactly underline a message of openness, since unless your name happens to be Zweibel, you have to renumber several people to add yourself correctly to the list. - Jmabel | Talk 16:47, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I agreed and fixed. That was changed recently by a new user. ←Humus sapiens ну? 23:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Messianic "Halakha" etc?
On 25 October 2006, User:Inigmatus moved Messianic religious practices to Messianic Halakha with the lame excuse "moved Messianic religious practices to Messianic Halakha: As discussed in prior archives, with the creation of the new Messianic Judaism template, this page can now be targeted for clean up: This entire page is better split into two articles" thus opening up a whole new can of worms. This fits into this new pattern of vigorous pro-Messianic Judaism POV edits, moves, categories, projects and articles, basically without warning and ignoring the consensus that has been maintained for some time. The main problem is that the over-all thrust of the recent pro-Messianic Judaism activity is to mimic and and get as close as possible to any and all Judaism, particularly Orthodox Judaism, articles and efforts, so that anyone looking at the one will arrive at the other by sheer proximity and similarity. And I repeat this again, because of its relevance: *User:Inigmatus (contributions), self-described as "A mystery user with a point to be made" (wouldn't that make anything he does as automatically POV?), has added a number of features to Messianic Judaism. A month ago he evidently plagiarized the  Template:Judaism and created Template Messianic Judaism based on it. He also created WikiProject Messianic Judaism also obviously plagiarizing the WikiProject Judaism page. This may mislead unsuspecting readers and there ought to be some warning or guidance about this. I would suggest that a new template be develpoed that would be placed on Messianic Judaism pages with a "Note: This article deals with Messianic Judaism. It does not represent normative Judaism and does not have any connection with, or official recognition from, any Jewish denominations." IZAK 03:45, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Welcome the NotJudaism template
Hi: In view of the above, please see the new NotJudaism template:


 * Note: The subject of this article or section does not represent normative Judaism and does not have any connection with, or official recognition from, any Jewish denominations.

Feel free to use it where applicable. Thanks. IZAK 05:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Judas Maccabeus and Judah Maccabee
I have found myself in a funny situation of creating an unintentional content fork (stuff happens), so now we have two article about the same person. Everybody is very welcome to discuss the issue on the relevant talk pages so that we could decide on the appropriate title for the article and proceed with the merger. Beit Or 21:43, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I have further proposed to move Judas Maccabeus to Judah Maccabee. Comments on the talk page will be much appreciated. Beit Or 20:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Marc Bloch
There is some disagreement if it should be mentioned that Marc Bloch was Jewish in the lead section of his Biography article. I created a straw poll here. -- Stbalbach 18:08, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Looks like this has been amicably resolved. - Jmabel | Talk 00:07, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Goa Inquisition

 * An editor has raised neutrality issues with the article. The subject is part of Jewish history, particularly the section Goa_Inquisition, regarding the persecution of Indian Jews during the Christian inquisition in India. I would greatly appreciate perusal and input regarding any neutrality issues. Hkelkar 04:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Second - The page has been blanked by users wishing to whitewash the horrific atrocities performed on Jews. Baka man  00:44, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Looking for contributors to the Holocaust wikibook
I have started working on a wikibook on the events of the Holocaust. So far ideas have been that: ''The book will look at the situation in which the Holocaust was able to take place. It will look into those involved and where and when important events took place, to try and establish a clear picture of the extend of what has happened. What happened after the war and what ongoing impact will the events of the Holocaust have now?'' The idea is to write a book that is suitable for learning at a 'college' level. I have set up a basic structure and now looking for people to start discussing, writing and shaping the book. If you're interested, you can contact me: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/User_talk:WietsE or leave a message on the books talk page: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Talk:The_Holocaust/Content. O yeah, and have a look at the Wikibook: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/The_Holocaust. WietsE 20:47, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Examination of Holocaust denial
This article is currently up for Afd. Perhaps some here would like to read the article and debate, and state their opinions about its proposed deletion. Jeffpw 21:35, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Zionism
This article is currently tagged POV and I am hoping to find a few people to debate issues on that page, both existing text and citations that I think are important to add. If you are interested, please review and comment at the bottom of the [ZIONISM] discussion page. Pco 16:38, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Yasue Norihiro
Hello all. I've just written an article on Norihiro Yasue, one of the Japanese army officers involved in formulating the Fugu Plan, which, while quite misguided in the reasoning behind it, did save many Jewish lives during the war. The article on him on the Japanese Wikipedia indicates that he was involved in founding Israel, which is impossible since he was in a Soviet labor camp from 1945 until his death in 1950. However, he did meet with Chaim Weizmann and David Ben-Gurion in 1926. Does anyone know anything more about this, and what role he may have had? The Japanese Wikipedia article also indicates that he was inscribed in "The Golden Book" as a person who helped make humanity great or something to that effect. A quick cursory search reveals nothing about this Golden Book at all, on the English Wikipedia. Any thoughts? Thanks. LordAmeth 01:37, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Religion
Wikipedia:WikiProject Religion FYI: Hi Tomer! A WikiProject Religion has asserted itself in the Korban article. The project indicates that it is an umbrella project for all of religion and that the current religion projects are subprojects of it, yet its member directory lists only six members. Where is the project coming from? Is it a broadbased project, a very small group with a very big reach, or what? If you know some background or some of its people, would be much appreciated. Best, --Shirahadasha 03:56, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Shira: I noticed this comment. Their assertion is outrageous and false and should be rejected and disputed to the full. There is no "supreme council of religion" on Wikipedia and there never will be. Each religion has its experts and contributors on Wikipedia and none of them will ever tolerate interference from outside busy-bodies. Judging by their user pages, the members of this "religion" project are obviously coming from a Christian POV and seems they now wish to "double dip," pretty funny actually. See my notice on that page, below. Thanks, and may the Lights of Chanukah dispel all ignorance and darkness. IZAK 10:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

NOTICE and OBJECTIONS to WikiProject Religion vs. Judaism
Hi: Please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Religion. Thanks, IZAK 10:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

NOTICE and OBJECTIONS:


 * 1) No-one has the right to take upon themselves to be the controlling "project" for every religion on Earth!
 * 2) WikiProject Judaism has been, and shall remain an independent project and will not accept interference in its work based on the assertion that editors not familiar with Judaism's traditions have a self-appointed "right" to interfere with Judaism-related articles by mere dint of being members of a "religion" project.
 * 3) So far, as of 12/21/06 the mere six members of this project, are mostly Christian, (as self-described on their user pages) and raises the question, why don't they do their work in WikiProject Christianity (81 members as of 12/21/06)? How can a project with six members "pass judgment" on other projects with one hundred and twenty four members?
 * 4) What will members of other projects, such as WikiProject Islam (64 members as of 12/21/06) think and react when "religion project" editors will advise what's best for Islam-related articles or not?
 * 5) Note: WikiProject Judaism adheres to WP:NPOV and is one of the oldest Wikipedia projects with over one hundred and twenty members (as of 12/21/06), a number of whom are respected sysops as well, highly knowledgeable about many matters relating to Category:Jews and Judaism sidebar.
 * 6) It would not be advisable for anyone to interfere with Judaism-related articles or Hebrew Bible-related topics that ignores the broad based consensus and general agreement that exists between Jewishly-oriented editors of Judaic articles, many of which touch upon Jews because being Jewish includes being both a part of Judaism as well as being part of an ethnicity, and a project on "religion" alone cannot and does not have the scope to touch upon issues that effects not just Jews and Judaism, but also Israel and Jewish history, see WikiProject Jewish history (with 33 members as of 12/21/06) and a broad range of related issues and projects, see WikiProject Jewish culture (19 members as of 12/21/06) and WikiProject Israel (23 members as of 12/21/06).
 * 7) Finally, Wikipedia is not the forum to create a de facto neo-"ecumenical project" which is only bound to cause confusion and resentment and will result in confusion and chaos and inevitabley violate No original research; Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought; and Avoid neologisms.

Thank you for taking this matter seriously. IZAK 09:21, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Response to NOTICE and OBJECTIONS to WikiProject Religion vs. Judaism
Hi: It is very important that you see the points and the response from User:Badbilltucker about his aims at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism ASAP. Have a Happy Chanukah! IZAK 15:51, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Jewish state
I strongly disagree with a recent anonymous edit to Jewish state. I reverted a few pieces of it that were clearly sheer liabilities, and I've commented on the other matters at Talk:Jewish state. Trying to assume good faith & all that, so before any unilateral revert I want to allow some time for comment. However, I wouldn't object to anyone else reverting all or part of the edit in question, and I would welcome discussion (criticism is, of course, welcome, but also endorsement of my remarks so that I am not placed in the position of acting unilaterally if and when I revert). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmabel (talk • contribs)

Hasmonean dynasty
Hi, I'd love a little help with Hasmonean. I've been editing alone for a while and need a second opinion. It probably needs cuts, my intros are always too long, I can't find anywhere that states how this Kingdom referred to itself, and the sourcing needs major improvement. Just to get started. :) Best, Kaisershatner 18:16, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia Day Awards
Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 20:53, 29 December 2006 (UTC)