Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism/Archive 38

Biographies (Specifically of Jewish Musicians/Entertainers) - List of Jewish Entertainers
I'm very new to writing and editing on Wikipedia, and I'm trying to find out more about how biographies are added and sorted, especially in terms of Jewish musicians/performers/entertainers (even more specifically, those in the Orthodox world - Abie Rotenberg, Benny_Friedman_(singer), Mordechai Shapiro, etc.).

I recently submitted my first article, on the singer Shlomo Simcha (I won't be posting the link here without permission, and I don't even know if this is the right place for asking this question), and don't know how or when the draft will be seen for approval, especially as (I assume) it's niche for the general audience and editors.

I also noticed that some of the singers I mentioned, who already have pages, but do not appear in lists of people in their respective categories. Is this because they are not considered to be notable enough?

Thanks in advance, GreenEli (talk) 15:22, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi, I don't have any concrete answers for you but hopefully I can help a bit .. I've written about 2 dozen bios on wiki for Jewish musicians/composers, as long as I sourced them properly none have been deleted in the past 2 years. These are mostly people from the older klezmer or Yiddish theatre world, not the contemporary Orthodox world, so the kind of sources about them would be different though. I tried for example to add references to the Badchen article about current day artists and found the sources out there were very limited. I've also tried and failed to argue against occasional nominations to delete Jewish community musicians who were considered "not notable" because they didn't have enough markers of mainstream success.  ..regarding this question "some of the singers I mentioned, who already have pages, but do not appear in lists of people in their respective categories." I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you talking about bio pages that have been added to a category and therefore when you open the category page you see all the pages included in it? Or more like "Lists of Jewish comedians" type pages that are manually edited by users?Dan Carkner (talk) 16:32, 6 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Hi Thank you for taking the time to reply about this. This was my first submission ever, and I submitted it through the Article Wizard. It hasn't even gone through the initial review process (potential deletion wasn't even on my radar yet), so, what I was trying to find out how AfCs that are in a niche like this finally do get approved, and who is doing the reviewing (I am hoping to have it reviewed and approved at some point). Or are these types of articles often just created and published without going through that whole process? Regarding my question about lists, I was trying to say that I found existing lists of Jewish entertainers, singers, etc. (e.g. List of Jewish American entertainers), but people like Benny Friedman, Mordechai Shapiro, Yaakov Shwekey, etc. don't appear on such lists (I realize some might not fit on a specific list because they are not from the place noted in the list heading, but, for those who are, it seems like they're being left out). I suppose that places my query within your latter example. Thanks again, GreenEli (talk) 16:05, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
 * No problem. Those types of lists are just created by users, not in a systematic or peer reviewed manner in my opinion. Actually I'm not a huge fan of them but some people see uses in them. I don't think it reflects well or badly on someone whether or not they are on such a list, or even whether said person has a wikipedia article at all, considering that a very important figure from another decade or from a linguistic minority may not be well known by the demographic of Wikipedia editors. Dan Carkner (talk) 16:52, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I get it. I can absolutely see the use in them, especially for categorization. I'm happy to report that a reviewer looked at my article on Shlomo Simcha today, and approved it, giving it a Start-Class rating. I'm going to keep working to improve it, adding in a photo or two, and expanding the Career section. All the best! GreenEli (talk) 23:55, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Hey . Mazal tov on your article. Next time put a Wikilink to your article, whether in draft form or mainspace, and that way we can more easily jump right to it and have a look for ourselves. Thanks for helping make Wikipedia even better. DaringDonna (talk) 19:34, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you ! That's much appreciated. I'm still pretty new to this, so I guess I missed out on that part. But the good news is it's up, and other people have already helped to improve it! All the best.GreenEli (talk) 05:18, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Help with Draft:Chaim Sztajer
Hello all, I was wondering if any of you lovely people could assist me with my AfC draft on the Treblinka camp survivor Chaim Sztajer. I believe he is notable enough to deserve an article however my draft was previously rejected for a lack of reliable sources. If anyone here if from Melbourne Australia you might know him as the creator of the Treblinka camp model at the Jewish Holocaust Centre museum in Elsternwick. My article relies too heavily on a biography of him written by his daughter. I found a few newspaper sources and there are some academic sources I can add but they are all about his life after the Holocaust, not before and during. I really want this article to be approved. Can anyone help me out? Thank you!! Apriljennifer (talk) 05:43, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Request for help at Elazar Shach
I am trying to expand the preface to Elazar Shach but am facing a brick wall. See talk. Many thanks. Chesdovi (talk) 00:40, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Input needed at category deletion discussion
Category:Jewish composers is up for deletion. As this project's banner was on the category talk page, I am notifying the project about the discussion at Categories for discussion/Log/2021 July 27.4meter4 (talk) 14:06, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Talk:David
There is currently a discussion at Talk:David via Talk:David on whether the article Kingdom of Israel (united monarchy) or Kings of Israel and Judah should be linked to the titles of the monarchs that ruled a united Israel. Additional thoughts on the matter would be greatly appreciated. Jerm (talk) 20:34, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

AfC Notability updates
Boker tov everybody! I'm working my way through the massive backlog at articles for creation and there are a couple situations that I'd love to discuss with you.
 * Draft:Yitzchok Yehoshua Heshel Friedman - The article is for the current Rebbe of the Sadigura (Hasidic dynasty), but given that there is an ongoing power struggle between the previous Rebbe's sons, I don't know whether this should be merged to the article on the Dynasty itself or whether it should exist as a separate article. Would welcome your thoughts.
 * Draft:Daniel Friedman (rabbi) - May have general notability, but I'm on the fence, as it does seem like it's not written in an NPOV.
 * Draft:Eshkolot (book series) - Your thoughts on notability?
 * Draft:Yaacov Behrman - Seems marginally notable, but I worry that this may be a WP:PAID case or a WP:PROMO, would love another pair of eyes on it.
 * Draft:Isaac De Castro - I would love to approve more articles about Jews from smaller countries, but I'm not seeing enough here to see notability. Perhaps you see it differently?
 * Draft:David Leybel - Seems a little promotional, but I would love another pair of eyes on it.

Any assistance or discussion would be great. Thanks in advance! Bkissin (talk) 15:05, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Yeshivat Netiv Aryeh
Your input is requested at Talk:Yeshivat Netiv Aryeh about the best way to go about portraying abuse allegations that were levelled at the dean. Thank you. Havradim leaf a message  10:51, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Homer Hayiuli
...to do: Homer Hayiuli (Hyle) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.34.85.148 (talk) 09:37, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I think it would make more sense to stick with the "In Judaism" section in the Hyle article. Debresser (talk) 13:58, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Holidays greetings nudge
If it's useful for anyone, I created a talk page editnotice template to gently nudge editors toward using more inclusive holiday greetings. Feel free to adopt it! &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 19:43, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

RM notification
There is a move discussion at Talk:Noach (parsha) that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. The discussion is around whether parsha or parashah is the correct English spelling. power~enwiki ( π, ν ) 05:38, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I'll note that the result of the brief discussion was that "parashah" is correct. From my rudimentary Hebrew, this agrees with the way it is "pointed" in our article . A Google search suggests the explanation that "parsha" is the Yiddish for "parashah" (which is what I guessed to begin with). Noach (parashah) has just been moved and Bereshit (parashah) is the only other use, having been moved in February 2019 by . As mentioned in the move discussion, if "parashah" is "correct", there are many other articles that use "(parsha)" in the title as a disambiguator, which should be moved and probably edited for consistency. This is a search for those. —[ Alan M 1  (talk) ]— 21:33, 3 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Note that the English Wiktionary also spells the term parashah and transcribes Hebrew פָּרָשָׁה as "pārāšâ". The Hebrew Wiktionary gives "parasha" as the pronunciation of פרשה. (The Yiddish Wiktionary is of no help here; it does not assign a language code and gives a circular definition without transcription or indication of the pronunciation.) The form parashah seems to be the more common one in English texts, but parsha is also quite common, so it is appropriate to have redirects from  to  .  --Lambiam 23:27, 3 January 2021 (UTC)


 * I agree with the above: all should be moved, and redirects kept. I don't think that "parsha" is the Yiddish variation of "parasha". The reason for the alternative spelling is perhaps that the vowel under the "r" is often reduced in Hebrew and is not usually pronounced. In this case it is, but often it isn't, and intuitively people may have reduced it. Debresser (talk) 15:02, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * This discussion does not change the main technical conclusions here, that all should be moved and redirect kept. The vowel under the "r" does not get "often reduced" in modern spoken common Israeli Hebrew, only maybe in Yiddish/Ashkenazi pronunciation by mostly Yiddish speaking charedim, in my view. Thanks, warshy (¥¥) 17:48, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * To the contrary, the real reduced vowels, called hataf, are not pronounced in modern Hebrew. This is not something that is specific to any group.
 * As I said, this "r" is not a real reduced vowel, just looks very much like it, but hey, it is only my personal theory. Debresser (talk) 19:34, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I am not putting anybody aside. It is just a common observation. Charedim in general speak more Yiddish as a common day-to-day language, and hence their Hebrew pronunciation has a stronger Yiddish accent, which is general stresses the first syllables (the farthest from the end of a word) rather than the last one, which is the one stressed in common Israeli (Sephardic) Hebrew speaking. In language pronunciation that stresses beginning and middle syllables rather than ending syllables (English is another language where this is done), the middle vowel is then more likely to get "often reduced." This is my theory. Thanks, warshy (¥¥) 19:56, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * In the case of the word "parasha", the first and last syllable are stressed in Hebrew, as can be seen in Megilat Esther from the "meteg" under the "p", while the middle one is not stressed. It is therefore not something that is connected to Yiddish. Debresser (talk) 07:17, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * You apparently don't know much about Yiddish either, do you? In Yiddish, the stress is more often on the penultimate syllable than on the last. Which in this case would mean the "p", which makes you very wrong. Debresser (talk) 07:24, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * And you, of course, are right as always. I was referring specifically to the common spoken language stress, not written grammar, and as regards this stress the common spoken Hebrew stress is the last syllable, and the Yiddish common stress is the penultimate. As is usually the case in English also. That is why in America, most Hebrew words are commonly pronounced the Yiddish way: shabbes and not shabbat, suka and not sukkah, havdala and not havdalah, matza and not matzah, chutzpa and not chutzpah, parsha and not parashah, and so on and so forth. You should get the drift. But enough of this narishkeit. You are always right anyhow, so there is no need to reply any more. Thanks, warshy (¥¥) 17:26, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I shall be large, and say that you are right about everything you said in your last post. :) Debresser (talk) 20:12, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Give thanks where thanks is due
I would like to use this forum to give praise to User:DayakSibiriak for his many recent quality improvements to Jewish religious movements and other Judaism-related articles. Debresser (talk) 15:06, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

User:Pretzel butterfly has an RFC
User:Pretzel butterfly has an RFC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. Pretzel butterfly (talk) 22:31, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Are Jewish newspaper reliable - an editor says no, in declining an article
An editor has suggested here that sources that are Israeli or Jewish newspapers are of questionable reliability. --2603:7000:2143:8500:7913:1C16:7EF2:49A9 (talk) 05:00, 15 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Jewish and/or Israeli newspapers have to follow the same rules regarding reliability. That being said, "Most of the sources of the article come from Israeli or Jewish newspapers, which may not be suitable as their reliability is questionable. " is a very troubling sentence. I would ask to explain it and see if he was talking about newspapers in general, or just for this article (which is still troubling). Sir Joseph (talk) 05:21, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I genuinely have no idea why I wrote that, as it clearly was a wrong and inappropriate thing to say. I think I just wasn't thinking straight at the time. I sincerely apologise for that statement. Regardless, the only reliable source I can find (at least based on WP:RSP) in that article is from Jerusalem Post, which doesn't appear to cover the subject in significant coverage. The majority of the other sources are about a poll the subject carries out, not the subject itself. I once again apologise for my earlier statement, I genuinely have no idea what made me write that. I have since removed the comment. I am very sorry for the comment, and the inconvenience I have caused. — Yours, Berrely  • Talk∕Contribs 08:23, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Israeli and Jewish newspapers have varying levels of reliability. In the UK, the The Jewish Chronicle and the Jewish Tribune can be considered reliable, but the Yated and Hamodia, not so much. It should also depend on the topic and the writer, so on matters relating to history and halacha, Yated and Hamodia can be considered okay. ScrupulousScribe (talk) 17:13, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Merge proposal for Hillula of Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai
Following recent disaster in Meron, Hillula of Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai is proposed to be merged into Tomb of Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai. You can participate here. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 20:52, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

MV Missourian (1921)
I've tagged the MV Missourian (1921) article for this WP as she was used to transport Jewish migrants from Argentina and Tunisia to Israel. There may be some categories that need to be added to the article, so please feel free to add them. Mjroots (talk) 19:07, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Most viewed stub in this Wikiproject
Dybbuk	27,001	900	Stub--Coin945 (talk) 14:46, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Chaim Zanvl Abramowitz
This article could use some attention if anyone from this project has time. It would be nice to get rid of that tag that has been there for five years.4meter4 (talk) 15:17, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Potential Christian bias on Wikipedia
As I read through the articles of Tanakh and Ketuvim, I noticed that much of it was clearly written by Christians. For instance, "Song of Songs" was frequently written as "Song of Solomon", despite (from my experience) no Jew ever referring to it as such. Obviously, Christians call it "Song of Solomon", but these are articles specifically written about Judaism. Does anyone have any thoughts on this matter? Painting17 (talk) 15:31, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm confused where you are looking. Tanakh is a redirect to Hebrew Bible and there is only one mention of Song of Solomon where it is "Shīr Hashīrīm (שִׁיר הַשִּׁירִים) – Song of Songs, also known as Song of Solomon (on Passover)". And Ketuvim only calls it Song of Songs, never Song of Solomon.Naraht (talk) 21:06, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
 * And in fact the main article about the work is at Song of Songs. Song of Solomon is a redirect to the page and a redirect that is reasonable.Naraht (talk) 21:08, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
 * .I did just go through the list at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Song_of_Solomon&namespace=0&limit=500 for those that link to Song of Solomon rather than Song of Songs (which may or may not be what is displayed in the article, of course) and changed a few that were Jewish oriented from SoSolomon to SoSongs, but I didn't feel it was a bias.Naraht (talk) 21:16, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Naraht The reason those two articles only reference SoSolomon once is that I edited a section that kept referring to it as SoSolomon. The part I edited was identical on both articles, and all other mentions were SoSongs. This leads me to think that the section was copy-pasted from a Christian website, which is a different problem. I am also well aware that Tanakh is a redirect to "Hebrew Bible". Painting17 (talk) 21:38, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
 * , OK didn't expect that you were editing it from your origin posting. I'll take a look at the change when I have a chance.Naraht (talk) 22:15, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Book order in the Hebrew Bible
Is there any systematic information in Wikipedia about the differing order of books in versions (Masoretic, Septuagint, etc.) of the Hebrew Bible (Christian Old Testament)? I haven't found anything, although a few articles do mention the existence of ordering differences. I propose that we start an article on this topic, provisionally "Book order in the Hebrew Bible". Any thoughts? Any offers? Feline Hymnic (talk) 12:56, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes. The "Contents" section of Old Testament has a list of all the different orderings. Jewish Bible has a list of the ordering for the TaNaKh. Painting17 (talk) 15:17, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Those articles mentions the existence of the different orderings but don't give any discussion about how or why these differences arose. Shouldn't something somewhere go into more depth? Hence my proposal for that new article. Feline Hymnic (talk) 19:56, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Little Haifa or New Preston St.
Hi! Is anyone available to lend an eye to this article? It needs a new name for sure, but I'm not sure what that should be. Jewish community of Louisville, Kentucky? Possibly Orthodox Jewish community? There doesn't seem to be anything about this neighborhood having a name, Dutchman's Lane could possibly also work since the businesses seemed centered around it, although the synagogue has moved. Thanks! Not watching here, so please ping if needed. Star  Mississippi  18:16, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * What about calling the article either Little Haifa or New Preston St.? Charlie Smith FDTB (talk) 19:49, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Jerusalem Faction
On the Languages panel in the sidebar of the article Jerusalem Faction (a community in Israel), the article was linked to the Hebrew article he:בני תורה (מפלגה), about the Jerusalem Faction's political party. However, a Hebrew article about the actual community was recently written – he:הפלג הירושלמי – and the English article should therefore be relinked. Can anyone take care of that? Charlie Smith FDTB (talk) 19:49, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Language links operate through Wikidata, so to change which pages on one wiki are associated with which on another, you just have to go to the Wikidata page and change the sitelinks there. From the en:Jerusalem Faction page, in the sidebar under "Tools" there is a link to "Wikidata item"; clicking that takes us to the Wikidata page. The problem here is that Jerusalem Faction (the community/political organization) was linked with the Wikidata item for Bnei Torah (the political party), instead of the Wikidata item for the Jerusalem Faction. I went and fixed it (by editing the sitelinks at the bottom of the Wikidata pages), so it should be correct now! (Though I will note that I can't read Hebrew, so I'm just hoping that Google Translate and what you said are both correct.) Aerin17 (t • c) 20:32, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Remphan
This article Remphan, relating to an obscure idol mentioned in the old testament, has been filled with self-published sources and wikisource articles, and basically turned into a long conspiracy theory rant with sections like this: "'In the modern age, some have associated the Zionist emphasis on the Star of David to represent Judaism as being related to this scriptural 'Star of Remphan' that was condemned as idolatry. It has also been suggested as an 'obscure' reference to the Antichrist, or by the Jewish Encyclopedia as being a reference to a 'Star of Abomination'." The section above uses as a reference a self-published source. I removed the non reliably-sourced material, only to see the editor who added them (and this is the only article he's edited) revert my edits. Any additional input would be appreciated. Drsmoo (talk) 02:22, 13 October 2021 (UTC)


 * I've gone ahead and made some edits—I'll keep my eye on the page. –Ploni (talk) 12:31, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment - " relating to an obscure idol mentioned in the old testament," the statement is incorrect and/or misleading. The idol is mentioned in the New Testament only, not the "Old." It is assumed by Christian exegesis of the New Testament to be related to another obscure term in the prophet Amos in the Hebrew Bible. Just to clarify. Thank you, warshy (¥¥) 13:43, 13 October 2021 (UTC)


 * As a person with not much of a biblical education, I have to admit I found that article impossible to understand. Ideally Wiki articles should be explaining things to non specialists so I wonder if there is a problem with the quality of the writing and explanation as well as the sourcing - maybe partly to do with the mention of fringe concepts as you allege. --Dan Carkner (talk) 14:40, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Please pass on to 'someone'
I've just now reviewed the results of someone moving the page Cantillation to Hebrew cantillation. While saying cantillation is a broader subject and needs a disambiguation page sounds fine, the fact that they moved the page in 2019 without fixing any of the ~260 usages of the link Cantillation is beyond distressing. I've found only 3 of those 260 that aren't actually about Hebrew cantillation.

Having now ranted at that soul, I'm too disheartened to approach the repair work needed. If any of y'all can think who or what group might want to fix all this, please pass this disaster description onwards to them. I suppose AWB might be in order, but sheesh, the mess people make! Depressing. Shenme (talk) 06:47, 17 October 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks for pointing this out... I've gone ahead and (manually) fixed the links, except for on user pages, talk pages, etc. –Ploni (talk) 19:53, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

compiling HTML page with verses from Masoretic Text
am not Jewish, and have little experience with the Jewish script and language. however am trying to compile an HTML page with verses from the Hebrew Scriptures, on my mobile phone, that is a learning exercise on small part of the Hebrew alphabet..ideally would like to copy the verses from a reputable website, with an accurate edition of the Hebrew Masoretic text, and all the diacritic marks..would appreciate some guidelines on where to start, how to do this.. Gfigs (talk) 19:39, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
 * seem to be facing the same problem, copy pasting Hebrew text from PDFs, that text is reversed, some letters, and most of the diacritics are being lost. is this a common problem, or will updating PDF reader resolve this?.besides, do not really know what would be the most accurate Masoretic text to use online?. Gfigs (talk) 23:10, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi Gfigs, this doesn't appear to be a Wikipedia-related question. I would recommend visiting a website development- or phone-related community forum. –Ploni (talk) 15:15, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * unfortunately am restricted with data at this time..thanks anyhow.. Gfigs (talk) 17:18, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I posted this question.. Reference_desk/Humanities Gfigs (talk) 06:02, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
 * and here also.. Reference_desk/Computing Gfigs (talk) 11:51, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

"Non-canonical" and "non-canonical books" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Non-canonical, Non-canonical books and one other. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 October 26 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are urged to contribute to the discussion. Johnbod (talk) 16:10, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Twelve Minor Prophets
Could someone with a knowledge of Hebrew and/or Aramaic please check the first sentence of Twelve Minor Prophets. A title is given in Aramaic, but I suspect that is a mistake and in fact it is in Hebrew. Adpete (talk) 03:17, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Hello. Thank for inquiring. I checked the opening sentence, and the expression given (Trey asar) is indeed Aramaic, not Hebrew, and it does mean "The Twelve [Prophets]." So the opening paragraph does look OK to me. Thank you, warshy (¥¥) 16:41, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you! But that raises another question: given that the book is written in Hebrew, surely the Hebrew title should be given, not the Aramaic title? The lead currently gives the title in Aramaic and Greek. I can understand why Greek is mentioned second, given the historical significance of the Septuagint. But I do not understand what an Aramaic title is doing there at all. Adpete (talk) 22:10, 1 November 2021 (UTC)


 * It is the name given by post-Biblical Jewish sources, many of which are in Aramaic. JFW &#124; T@lk  14:46, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I checked my own preferred printed version and it does give the name/title in Hebrew (I thought it also used the common Aramaic title used mostly in modern printed versions of the Tanach) So I went ahead and added the Hebrew title also. Hope this resolves your doubts? Thank you, warshy (¥¥) 15:56, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Jews in Jazz
The Jews in Jazz page is a work in progress. Anyone want to help expand and reorganize it?

Also... should it be linked to this project somehow? -- Bob drobbs (talk) 05:43, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Abraham's family tree
I would like to call attention to Abraham's family tree because the family tree as I see it is wrong according to Torah. There is no mention of Keturah and her sons. I feel this is very important to change as Abraham was the first Hebrew and the first patriarch of the Jewish Nation. I just don't know how to do it as it seems that the tree is somehow already set without parts in the edit. Thanks. Vinnypatel (talk) 15:34, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Is Josephus's claim that Adam had red skin a Jewish tradition?
I reverted this but it's been reinstated by User:Teertrevo. It's also been added to the "body" section of Adam but I think that without discussion it's almost trivia, but that is a different issue from calling it a tradition. Doug Weller talk 14:21, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I looked at the reference provided (Josephus's own text) and I couldn't see it there. I've never heard of any such "tradition" before. warshy (¥¥) 16:52, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

RM discussion for 39 Melachot
There is a Requested Move discussion open at Talk:39_Melachot that would benefit from the opinions of members of this WikiProject. User:力 (powera, π,  ν ) 18:53, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Wisdom poetry
reasonably WP:PRODded this recently and it intrigued me so I went digging. I'm out of my depth on the ancient Jewish literature part of this article (and more generally) and could use some help.

Here's what I think is going on. Form critics including Hermann Gunkel and Sigmund Mowinckel think that parts of Psalms and other ancient Jewish literature should be characterized as "wisdom poetry". Medievalists have described unrelated poems, written in Old Norse and Old English, among other old Germanic languages, as "wisdom poetry".

I have questions. First, is either of these a coherent genre? The first in particular worries me because I doubt that a genre identified only by an outmoded form of biblical criticism is worthy of an article or section in the here and now. Second, am I right in thinking that these two uses of "wisdom poetry" are totally different? AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 22:59, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I read the article. I agree with you. Overall the whole thing is just a stub right now, without much worthwhile content, in my view. And, the two parts (Hebrew Bible and Medieval English) are really completely unrelated. Just by some weird chance, in my view, they end up using the same concept of "wisdom poetry," somehow. But there is no reason for them to be together in the same page, and the whole page is, as I said, just a short stub. I would nominate it for deletion. Thank you, warshy (¥¥) 15:49, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Ha, well all the content on that page is what I wrote after it was prodded. The prodded version was even worse. The term is definitely attested in multiple sources—albeit in two distinct contexts—but I can't tell if it's a real thing. I may AfD it myself if I can't find more on either type of "wisdom poetry". AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 18:56, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Temple in Jerusalem
The above article makes no mention of the historical doubts surrounding the existence/nature of Solomon's Temple. In the archeology section it states:

"Archaeological excavations have found remnants of both the First Temple and Second Temple. Among the artifacts of the First Temple are dozens of ritual immersion or baptismal pools in this area surrounding the Temple Mount, as well as a large square platform identified by architectural archaeologist Leen Ritmeyer as likely being built by King Hezekiah c. 700 BCE as a gathering area in front of the Temple."

Yet, the Solomon's Temple article says this:

"Because of the religious and political sensitivities involved, no archaeological excavations and only limited surface surveys of the Temple Mount have been conducted since Charles Warren's expedition of 1867–70. There is no solid archaeological evidence for the existence of Solomon's Temple, and the building is not mentioned in surviving extra-biblical accounts, save for perhaps a single fragmented ostracon, which mentions a "house of Yahweh" without any further specification. Furthermore, there is no evidence for monumental building techniques in Judah before the 7th century BCE, while Solomon himself has been described as little more than a hill country chieftain."

I'm not really sure how to reconcile these two articles. -- Puzzledvegetable Is it teatime already?  03:36, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I think you raise a very good question. And I also believe that part of an answer to it can be gatehered from this WP article, and also in this one. I'll follow with interest any further discussions on your question. Thank you, warshy (¥¥) 18:14, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Merging Qliphoth stubs
Hi. I hope that this project is the right place for this, as the Kabbalah project is inactive. I noticed that we have various unsourced stubs (some of them just one line) about various Qliphoth/Qliphah: Thamiel, Golachab, Thagirion, Gha'agsheblah, Ghagiel, A'arab Zaraq and Gamaliel (Qliphah). It seems to me that unless these really are all individually notable concepts that can be expanded into meaningful articles, it probably makes more sense to merge them into the main Qliphoth article, ideally in a way that is sourced. But I know nothing about Kabbalah, so I'm hoping that someone who does can take a look at these and see if my assessment is correct, and maybe even perform the merges. Thanks! Lennart97 (talk) 18:12, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
 * My own personal recommendation would be to merge all these stubs immediately in the main Qliphoth article. Even if there were any reliable source for any of them, they are not notable enough, in my view, to have their own separate stubs. Any thing related to Qlipoth should be merged into one main page, in my view. Thank you, warshy (¥¥) 19:07, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the response. One thing I noticed is that Qliphoth mentions Mashchith as the counterpart to Chesed, while Gha'agsheblah also claims to be the counterpart to Chesed. Is that possible? Things like that make me hesitant to simply merge these stubs without any sourcing. Lennart97 (talk) 09:37, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Do you have any thoughts on my latest comment? Would you perhaps even consider taking care of these merges? Lennart97 (talk) 10:15, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Even the spelling of these names is not correct, and does not have any source for it at all. If you check their history you'll probably find they were added by an IP editor. They should have been deleted long ago, or merged as you are suggesting. I don't have time to really spend on taking care of this mostly garbage (in my view, at least). Good luck to you in dealing with it. Thank you, warshy (¥¥) 17:54, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I've redirected all of them to their (supposed) Sefirot counterparts, adding mentions where there weren't any yet. Lennart97 (talk) 09:53, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Jews and Christmas
Input and contributions will be appreciated at Draft:Jews and Christmas, where work is ongoing. Thank you! ezlev (user/tlk/ctrbs) 17:07, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Jewish films
Should it be Category:Jewish films or Category:Films about Jews and Judaism. See this discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:14, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Rename?
There is a discussion, with different views, as to whether to rename the title of a wikipedia article to that of the synagogue that it is, here. --2603:7000:2143:8500:A943:46:CC9F:B993 (talk) 00:06, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

About the construction of Template:Hebrew month
I have left a comment about the way that Template:Hebrew month is constructed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Templates. If you are interested in the template, please see there. ~Cheers, Ten  Ton  Parasol  02:11, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

"Judeo-Christian" navboxes template
If anyone is interested in contributing, there is an ongoing discussion at Templates_for_discussion/Log/2022_January_18. –Ploni (talk) 17:44, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Help wanted with Category:Jews
I think I really need someone who understands how categories work better than I do. I reverted User:Shandor Newman yesterday but I don't feel sure that either version is correct. I do think that "originated from" is better than "descended from" but I'm not sure about the issues relating to cats, subcats, diffusion, etc. Doug Weller  talk 16:03, 19 January 2022 (UTC)


 * The editor was indefinitely blocked for trolling after going to ANI, but as I said, my main issue is the technical one. Doug Weller  talk 17:10, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

I think "descended" sounds better than "originated" as Jewish identity is based primarily on us being the progeny of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Israel was the name given to Jacob after his wrestle with the angel, which plays a big part in the Jewish origin story and our identity as a nation. Throughout our history, Jews have identified as 1) a nation (sometimes in exile), 2) an ethnic group (through matrilineal lineage), and 3) a religious group (Klal Yisrael), so the ethnoreligious category is technically correct. Pious Brother (talk) 20:41, 19 January 2022 (UTC)


 * That’s really not what I had in mind, it was the technical stuff. In any case the category description has to match the article and that says originated. And of course there are Jewish converts, “descended” excludes them. Doug Weller  talk 21:36, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
 * You are correct, I hadn't thought about converts. Pious Brother (talk) 07:44, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Removing Images of Uncle Sam and Laughing Quaker, as they do not represent Judaism or this Wikiproject
How did these images come to be associated with the Judaism Wikiproject?

I posted this in April 2021, and no one has responded: Can we remove these images and replace them with something that represents this Wikiproject? Or at least, with something neutral that DOES NOT associate this project with the American military industrial complex, or with an alternate religion, or with the scoffing at the readership for no particular reason? Thank you for the consideration.

See also: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Judaism/Archive_37. Therefore I will remove them. Perhaps an image of a menorah, or a torah scroll, or the two stone tables, or an olive branch, or something anything rather than an image of a human being would be more appropriate to this project. Proposals? I will wait for a consensus from the community before adding a replacement. Regards, Jaredscribe (talk) 23:29, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
 * FYI, and for the record, the images were previously on the page Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Judaism/Members2 which was transcluded into Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Judaism/Members. They are gone now, and no one has reverted, so I suppose that it will stay that way. Jaredscribe (talk)

Should Shia LaBeouf (the article, not the person) be classified under this project?
There's a question as to whether Shia LaBeouf should be considered under the auspices of this project. Interested editors are invited to contribute to the discussion here: Talk:Shia LaBeouf. Cheers! DonIago (talk) 04:19, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Concern about an editor going through articles changing Jewish to Israelite
I'm not entirely sure about the issue, although he's clearly done it at least once changing sourced text, edit warring over this since the 9th. He's also adding original research. Other instances. I'll tell him about this discussion. Doug Weller talk 07:26, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
 * And although this is a completely different article, this is worth looking at as it now makes me distrust all of his edits. Eg "during the feudalism of the Middle Ages, all the ancestors of the pro-Europeanist Caucasians of the early 20th century were in captivity, servitude and complete subjection to the "blue bloods" (i.e. the feudal ruling families which were black people) and were even inferior in terms of rank to the "black bourgeoisie"". Doug Weller  talk 07:40, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Never mind, the combination of edits got him blocked indefinitely at WP:AN3. Doug Weller  talk 10:33, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

Mimi Reinhardt, Oskar Schindler’s secretary
Mimi Reinhardt, the secretary of Oskar Schindler, has died. She was the one who actually typed up his lists. There is some mixed information out there about her role. Thriley (talk) 16:24, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

User script to detect unreliable sources
I have (with the help of others) made a small user script to detect and highlight various links to unreliable sources and predatory journals. Some of you may already be familiar with it, given it is currently the 39th most imported script on Wikipedia. The idea is that it takes something like and turns it into something like
 * John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14.
 * John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14.

It will work on a variety of links, including those from cite web, cite journal and doi.

The script is mostly based on WP:RSPSOURCES, WP:NPPSG and WP:CITEWATCH and a good dose of common sense. I'm always expanding coverage and tweaking the script's logic, so general feedback and suggestions to expand coverage to other unreliable sources are always welcomed.

Do note that this is not a script to be mindlessly used, and several caveats apply. Details and instructions are available at User:Headbomb/unreliable. Questions, comments and requests can be made at User talk:Headbomb/unreliable.

- &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b}

This is a one time notice and can't be unsubscribed from. Delivered by: MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:01, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Looking for peer review of Paul Goodman
Hi all, I'm looking for peer reviews of our article on the American public intellectual Paul Goodman, a prominent New York Jew who wrote on Judaism and whose brother becamea a prominent a synagogue builder, if anyone would be so inclined: Peer review/Paul Goodman/archive1. No prior experience necessary—just want to know how it reads for a general audience, given that the content gets a bit obtuse. czar 19:11, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Scopes of antisemitic canards and stereotypes of Jews
The distinction between the scopes of antisemitic canards and stereotypes of Jews is not clear. Would anyone like to take a stab at improving or clarifying it? &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125; talk 22:06, 16 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Antisemitic canards are narratives about somebody doing something which cast Jews in a negative light. Claiming that Jews have long hooked noses could be a stereotype of Jews, but not really an antisemitic canard. AnonMoos (talk) 12:18, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Bethel (god): major rewrite complete
Greetings Wikipedians! I've just finished some work on the Bethel (god) article, as described on that article's talk page. I welcome any comments. Cordially, BuzzWeiser196 (talk) 19:37, 17 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Hey -- thanks for your edits! I marked some missing cites. There's one big issue with this page IMO (will clone to talk) which is that it confuses "Bethel is always a god" with "Bethel is a god at least once". No one (cited, at least) denies that Bethel is at least almost always a place. So content about uncontroversial verses in Genesis or Samuel doesn't really belong. GordonGlottal (talk) 20:00, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Latter Prophets? Later Prophets?
Nevi'im, as I understand it, comprises the Former Prophets (Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings) and the Latter Prophets (Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, the Twelve minor prophets).

But several articles also mention the "Later Prophets", spelt with single-t rather than double-t. Is this the same thing as the "Latter Prophets"? Should I create a "Later Prophets" redirect? And should we then start wikilinking the hitherto unlinked uses of the term "Later Prophets"?

If the two terms are different, then perhaps a description of the difference is needed in, for instance, the Nevi'im article.

Feline Hymnic (talk) 21:07, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Oh, wow! Yes, it definitely needs a redirect. See The Milstein Edition Later Prophets. StAnselm (talk) 21:11, 24 May 2022 (UTC)


 * In 21st-century English, the word "latter" is somewhat archaic except in the meaning "the second of two things referred to": "There are green apples and red apples available; some prefer the former, but I prefer the latter" (even that construction is very formal). I assume that the change from "Latter" to "Later" is because the word "Latter" doesn't convey much meaning to the minds of some speakers of English in that context... AnonMoos (talk) 21:29, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Yeshiva Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch
The picture File:Rabbi Samson R Hirsch Yeshiva - 85-93 Bennett Av jeh.jpg is featured on the page Yeshiva Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch. However, from what I understand, the building in the picture is in fact the synagogue Khal Adath Jeshurun which is located next door. I believe the correct image would actually be File:Yeshiva Hirsch Bennett Av 186 St jeh.jpg. Should the photo on the Yeshiva Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch be switched? Thanks, Charlie Smith FDTB (talk) 01:35, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
 * The picture seems to have been corrected.DaringDonna (talk) 19:22, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The current building in the article is one of the buildings of the Yeshiva.Dovidroth (talk) 14:33, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Orthodox rabbis
I am a categoriser. I dont know much about Judaism. The article Orthodox Judaism gives me the impression that orthodoxy is a relatively modern thing, but looking at articles about mediaeval rabbis many of them are in Category:Orthodox rabbis - even though few of the articles mention orthodoxy. Should we remove these orthodox categories? Rathfelder (talk) 18:25, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I am student of Jewish history. Wikipedia categories, however, are much of a mystery to me. In any case, the reason for these weird categorizations you see is that modern Orthodoxy likes to claim they are the only legitimate heirs of Rabbinic Judaism. And so they go back and categorize medieval rabbis that are considered "rabbinic" (i.e., "Orthodox" by their meaning and understanding) as "orthodox" (as a WP category). It is basically a serious and mistaken anachronism, since medieval rabbis did not know and did not use the term "orthodox," which is indeed a modern concept as you correctly see it. I would remove all these anachronic categories immediately. But then again, since I don't know and don't understand by whom they are really used and for what purposes, I assume you will get speedily reverted if you tried that. And also, what do these categories really matter? Thank you, warshy (¥¥) 19:08, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
 * It sounds fair to me to remove them from premodern biographies where they would be anachronistic. However, I agree that you may get some pushback/reverting from people who disagree. --Dan Carkner (talk) 20:22, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
 * IMO this is not an problem. Categories aren't mutually exclusive, so this is a low-stakes issue, and to an extent we have to allow modern perspectives to shape our categorization of historical figures because they largely determine notability: Orthodox acceptance of these medievals is the only reason they have pages. You could even think of retroactive Orthodoxy as akin to Christian canonization -- take a look at Category:Catholic_saints and you'll see that many of them predate the mainstream Catholic theology or weren't particularly loyal to it, but they're "Catholic" in the sense that the Catholic Church understands itself as progressing from them. GordonGlottal (talk) 20:41, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Theres a big difference with saints in that they are officially recognised by a church. What I dont like about this is that hardly any of the articles mention orthodoxy.  Its a fairly fundamental principle of Wikipedia that assertions should be supported by evidence. Who says these rabbis were orthodox?  What does that even mean in the 11th century? Mostly I am trying to put the articles into categories by century and country, and the orthodox categories just seem like unnecessary clutter.Rathfelder (talk) 21:18, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
 * In terms of ID: tradents in the 11th century will generally be called a "rishon" on their pages, which is internal Orthodox slang for an accepted authority of that period. Basically I think it makes sense to include the accepted medievals because "Orthodox Judaism" means "Judaism which accepts the rulings of the medievals as precedential". I think our friend Warshy is wrong in a crucial way. Whether Orthodoxy is the "legitimate heir of Rabbinic Judaism" in some ultimate sense, the medievals are attached to the same claim on it. Other streams of Judaism argue for their own legitimacy by attacking the legitimacy of these medievals. Every stream of judaism that is unwilling to proactively overrule these 11th century authorities is Orthodox, and every stream that is willing to is not. In contrast, I don't think Biblical figures or Talmudic sages are "Orthodox" in any way, because other forms of Judaism lay claim to them. BTW almost no rabbis, even today, will refer to themselves as "Orthodox" by choice. I could count the number of times I've seen it in Hebrew characters in a religious text on one hand. It's a reactionary term intended to distinguish oneself from more liberal movements, and so really only used by rabbis or institutions who have some specific reason to be concerned about being confused with them. I doubt there's any medieval currently listed in the category who wouldn't meet the definition on the Orthodoxy page: Orthodox Judaism is the collective term for the traditionalist and theologically conservative branches of contemporary Judaism. Theologically, it is chiefly defined by regarding the Torah, both Written and Oral, as revealed by God to Moses on Mount Sinai and faithfully transmitted ever since. Orthodox Judaism therefore advocates a strict observance of Jewish law, or halakha, which is to be interpreted and determined exclusively according to traditional methods and in adherence to the continuum of received precedent through the ages. It regards the entire halakhic system as ultimately grounded in immutable revelation, and beyond external influence. Key practices are observing the Sabbath, eating kosher, and Torah study. Key doctrines include a future Messiah who will restore Jewish practice by building the temple in Jerusalem and gather all the Jews to Israel, belief in a future bodily resurrection of the dead, divine reward and punishment for the righteous and the sinners. GordonGlottal (talk) 22:49, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Were there any mediaeval rabbis who would not be orthodox on this definition?Rathfelder (talk) 08:31, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Oh, definitely. Any number of medieval rabbis are or were excluded from the title. A lot of the proto-Kabbalists, for example, and all of the Karaites, anyone with real or suspected doubts about unified authorship, known document forgers, etc. In a later period, almost all Sabbateans. Though you could probably find an individual modern defender for most anyone. GordonGlottal (talk) 19:55, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Orthodox Judaism is a modern movement. In the WP definition quoted above, note "contemporary" in the first sentence (not that WP itself is a reliable source), the term "traditionalist" (usually applied to modern efforts to claim traditional authority), and notice how the History section begins in late 18th C. A
 * Therefore, no pre-modern rabbi, no rabbi before 18th C certainly, should be categorized as Orthodox. Only a religious, i.e., Orthodox POV, treats medieval rabbis as if they are "Orthodox." See comment by @Warshy above.
 * One argument for retaining the categorization -- "Other streams of Judaism argue for their own legitimacy by attacking the legitimacy of these medievals." (by @GordonGlottal above) -- reads as a non-neutral POV and incorrect. Even were Orthodoxy the only stream to "lay claim" to these medievals, that anachronistic religious claim does not make it NPOV encyclopedic.
 * Thanks to @Rathfelder for bringing this our attention and I hope the categorizations will be changed. I appreciate your idea about categories by place and century, though this works well: Category:Rabbis by rabbinical period. ProfGray (talk) 02:44, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I never felt strongly about this and I still don't. No objection to anything ProfGray says. I do think the parallel to Catholic sainthood is compelling. GordonGlottal (talk) 01:21, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Related page move request.

 * (Discuss) – Shimon bar Yochai → Shimon ben Yochai – (Background: A previous discussion on this page led to a move to Simeon bar Yochai, which has apparently now been undone. A previous discussion of ben/bar ended without consensus.) Genuine Talmudic texts universally, without exception, refer to our subject as Shimon ben Yochai. The Steinsaltz edition of the Bavli incorrectly read "bar Yochai" in some places but, due to my efforts of a few hours ago, that has now been fixed. Our page on the Mekhilta of Rabbi Shimon ben Yochai also referred to the book as of "bar Yochai," even though it has never been called that, which I have fixed. This is a case of popular error occasioned by the forged Zohar which, in its pretense to have been composed by Aramaic-speaking sages, but without Palestinian Aramaic grammatical knowledge, referred to him in the wrong style, and it has sometimes broken into even scholastic spaces. Nonetheless it is obvious what his real name was, and the vast majority of scholastic references are aware of this. Ngram shows that despite the overwhelming popularity of "bar Yochai" among internet posts, the two are equally popular in books: here. A closer examination reveals that Kabbalistic titles refer to him as "bar Yochai" and wiki-reliable academic works, unless they are specifically referring to him in a Zoharic context, refer to him as "ben Yochai". GordonGlottal (talk) 19:48, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I appreciate your raising this issue.
 * However, the reasoning for the article name should be based on Article titles criteria, which means that we should draw upon reliable sources, such as "the usage of major international organizations, major English-language media outlets, quality encyclopedias..." "search engine data" and so on. A quick google search confirms that "bar" fits the "recognizable" criterion. Your reasoning is based on internal Jewish sources, which are not the WP criteria. ProfGray (talk) 03:13, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @ProfGray You've said this twice but it isn't true. I have not in any way based my argument on internal Jewish sources. I was explaining the rationale which explains why academics use "ben" only. You can see it in all standard reference works here and here and here and here and here and many others that are not available free online. Anyway please respond at the discussion itself to keep things neat. GordonGlottal (talk) 10:48, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi. Let me explain that the sources you cited in the "Discuss" paragraph above and again in your reply are not all "reliable sources" as understood by Wikipedia. These include Jewish sources -- books on Talmudic sages by Jewish publishers and what you refer to as "genuine Talmudic texts." Some of the other sources are quite dates, including the Toldot and the early 20th C Jewish Encyclopedia. Your use of google Ngram is fine. Jastrow could be relevant, but my more recent Frank Talmud Dictionary p. 292 has "bar." I suppose it's a see-saw and whichever name has the most evidence that fits the WP Criteria should be used. ProfGray (talk) 12:17, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Frank is neither a dictionary nor an academic resource; it's a tool for religious studies which explains the traditional interpretation of Talmudic idioms. It relies entirely on modern religious printed editions, which an academic source never would, and it seeks explicitly to explain terms in a way relevant to today's Orthodox religious context. Jastrow is older but dramatically more wiki-appropriate. Sokoloff, which is the newest academic Talmud dictionary, also says ben Yochai, though it's not available online. The same is true for the other sources I listed -- all are respected academic materials. It's not that I refer to them as "genuine Talmudic texts," I just mean to exclude the Zohar, which modern scholars universally agree is a forgery and is the first text to use bar Yochai, in the 13th century, 700 years after the close of the Talmudic period. GordonGlottal (talk) 13:17, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
 * We also have COMMON, and I'd think bar is more common than ben. Sir Joseph (talk) 02:09, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Jews in Hong Kong peer review
The article Jews in Hong Kong is currently undergoing peer review here. Any feedback is appreciated. — Golden  call me maybe? 15:23, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

note re items
Hi. Are there any project coordinators, or simply some active project members here, whom I can discuss some general ideas with? I am working on a few different resources, designed to promote collaboration and communication throughout the communtiy in a wide variety of ways. I have been editing Wikipedia for over fifteen years. I would be glad to describe my ideas, simply by opening a discussion here on this talk page. could you please simply let me know who might be here and active on this page, who might be willing to discuss some ideas?

I greatly appreciate it. by the way, I live in Brooklyn, NY. Also, I am the Lead Project Coordinator at WikiProject History. I am hoping to discuss some possible areas for collaboration, plus some possible ideas and methods to promote greater community collaboration. thanks very much!! Sm8900 (talk) 14:01, 7 July 2022 (UTC)


 * I think the best thing to do is start the conversation here. I don't know how many active users there are, but I do know many people have this on their watchlist and contribute when they can. Sir Joseph (talk) 17:00, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I have been working for the last few years on articles about the Yiddish literature/music/theatre side of things, not so much about the religious topics that would be in the scope of this Judaism wikiproject (although people often tag non-religious articles in this WP too). There is also the Jewish History wikiproject which has some occasional activity, though not a lot. The Jewish Culture one seems to have been inactive for a while, which is unfortunately because it most closely matches what I write about. What do you have in mind ? --Dan Carkner (talk) 20:40, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
 * well, actually, I am still getting familiar with some of the topical areas. so I guess I will take a littlle more time, and then contact you again later. I appreciate your replies. thanks! Sm8900 (talk) 20:22, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Category:Jewish communists
Hello WikiProject Judaism, there is an unsalting request open at Requests for page protection/Decrease. The prior deletion and protection was related to disruptive editors back in 2007. Is there still a good reason to prevent this category from being used? Feedback is welcome at the discussion. Best regards, — xaosflux  Talk 13:57, 19 July 2022 (UTC)


 * The discussion page is gone now. Not sure what happened. Dan Carkner (talk) 22:35, 19 July 2022 (UTC)


 * The category has been unprotected. Given the obvious issues regarding potential abuse, people should keep an eye on how it is being used. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:45, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Got it, thanks. Dan Carkner (talk) 22:51, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

"Maccabiah Games" articles for deletion under this project

 * The deletion discussion: Articles for deletion/Judo at the 2009 Maccabiah Games

Articles for deletion:
 * 1) Judo at the 2009 Maccabiah Games
 * 2) Judo at the 2013 Maccabiah Games
 * 3) Judo at the 2017 Maccabiah Games
 * 4) Judo at the 2022 Maccabiah Games

The above articles, under this project, are currently being considered for deletion (see discussion HERE), following the deletion of the Judo at the 2005 Maccabiah Games article. Some of the deletion supporters argue that ALL "SPORT at the YEAR Maccabiah Games" article should be deleted, not just the judo ones. Feel free to join the discussion. CLalgo (talk) 07:07, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Jews of Color
Please contribute to this new article draft on Jews of Color. Coin945 (talk) 19:59, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

True Torah Jews
Please review and copyedit this article so we can get it out of draft and into the mainspace. Coin945 (talk) 15:12, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Integral Judaism
Please can you have a look at this stub and help improve it?--Coin945 (talk) 15:13, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

AFD
Hello, there is an AFD that apparently was put into through any deletion sorting that might be of interest. You can find it at Articles for deletion/Children of Eber. Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 01:52, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

AfD
The AfD at Articles for deletion/Football at the 2001 Maccabiah Games may well be of interest to some here. 2603:7000:2143:8500:401A:1701:C4F5:B270 (talk) 06:55, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

"Zionist antisemitism" renaming discussion
The renaming discussion at Talk:Zionist antisemitism may be of interest. Input is most welcome. &#10148; Ploni &#128172; &#10148;  14:02, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Deleted article - Rashi Shapiro
Hello all, I recently had a request on my talk page from a who would like their own biography reinstating. Due to a variety of other pressures I'm not able to spend time looking into the case, and I wondered if it was something that was already familiar to editors here. Their posted request is on my talk page. Many thanks Lajmmoore (talk) 11:22, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Alice Walker
Editors here may be interested in participating in several ongoing discussions at Talk:Alice Walker. GordonGlottal (talk) 20:42, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Mamzer: contradictory sentences citing the same source
currently contains the following two sentences, one in its first and one in its last paragraph, both of which cite the exact same source:

According to the Shulchan Aruch, a mamzer can only be produced by two Jews.

However, the child of a female mamzer and a non-Jewish man is a mamzer.

The article is of high importance and the subject matter is extremely far outside of my expertise or comfort zone, so I have not edited the section, but the sentences as they currently stand are blatantly contradictory. I would appreciate attention from a topic expert. Thepsyborg (talk) 06:23, 25 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Great catch. I believe I have now corrected this, to "According to the Shulchan Aruch, a new line of mamzerim can only be produced by two Jews but the product of a non-Jew and a mamzeret (female mamzer) is a mamzer". GordonGlottal (talk) 18:09, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Talk:Who is a Jew?
There is a proposal on the talk page of Who is a Jew? to merge that article into the Jewish identity article. Input from regular editors of this WikiProject or those knowledgeable about the subject matter would be greatly appreciated. QueenofBithynia (talk) 00:13, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Might be worth watching
All about Jews and the slave trade. . Doug Weller talk 11:37, 3 November 2022 (UTC)


 * They are saying that "i am going to add all the information about the exiled Jews moving to Africa, starting settlements, marrying the African women and then started selling the slaves to Euros.
 * This is how the slave trade started (all sources agree in all countries and languages)". Doug Weller  talk 16:08, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
 * It's a weird thing to be obsessed about adding. I myself have occasionally ventured into this subject area while editing about Surinaam history, it's true there were some Jewish slave-owning colonies in early modern South America (no idea about Africa). But having it as a mission and making unsourced edits - or even going on a fishing expedition in legitimate sources to support a predetermined point as they seem to have done more recently - does worry me. --Dan Carkner (talk) 17:44, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Mishnah needs attention
The overall level of verification on Mishnah is patchy at best. It is presumably all very verifiable, however, so if someone has the time, energy and knowhow ... Iskandar323 (talk) 08:23, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Reddit thread
This reddit thread appears to point to some issues at History of the Jews in Hungary; I see and some others have been editing/discussing there, and the page could perhaps use some additional eyes/help. Best, &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 18:38, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

tzniut/Tziniut spellings and caps consistency
Can someone clued up on transliteration and usage please have a very quick look at Talk:Frum? I've asked the question there but that Talk page is not exactly about to burst into flames from the heavy editing it gets, so if you had a moment? Believe me, it is better than leaving me to decide! Cheers DBaK (talk) 12:11, 21 November 2022 (UTC)


 * DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered Left a reply on the Talk page. Take my input with a grain of salt, though. I have experience with transliteration outside of the world of WP, but can't say how my input will be received here (especially given what I'm currently dealing with in regards to the article I'm currently working on). GreenEli (talk) 19:13, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks! This seems now to be resolved after intervention from other editors ... I'm happy that it is consistent. Best to all, DBaK (talk) 08:31, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Glad to hear! GreenEli (talk) 15:11, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

New Article: Chanale (Cleanup/Review?)
Over the past few months, I've slowly been working on an article on the composer/lyricist/artist Chanale, which I finally moved to the namespace today. I picked up the article after someone else started it, so some of the original references use cite web/news instead of the general quick ref (which is my go-to). I think the code is good, overall, but could probably still use some cleanup. Any additional review is also appreciated. GreenEli (talk) 18:57, 8 November 2022 (UTC)


 * Article has been nominated for deletion I find myself in a bit of a pickle now, likely of my own doing. Since my moving it to namespace, the article on Chanale has been placed nominated/moved to WP:AfD. The core references are COLLive and other Jewish/Israeli publications (including interviews), almost all of which are being considered of little-to-no value. This runs rather counter to anything I've seen happen to male ultra-Orthodox artists, so I must assume the main reason that this has been given such scrutiny is because I, a still-quite-new editor, published it, rather than putting it through the AfC process.
 * Is anybody available to provide input on this? I worry the deletion of this article may lead to the attempted removal of other articles on ultra-Orthodox Jews. GreenEli (talk) 19:04, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Update The article was officially deleted from the mainspace. I requested it to be moved back to draftspace, and have started working on it again. Hopefully I can find more coverage on her that meets the approval of the AfC editors. GreenEli (talk) 16:48, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately the way notability is set up here doesn't seem to work well for current day "minority" artists who are popular among a certain community, and if the coverage is not widespread in mainstream literature they will be interpreted as not notable. If you have them set up as drafts and want feedback feel free to continue posting here for feedback. Some cases may be doomed per the current rules and attitudes of disinterested users though. Dan Carkner (talk) 18:33, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I've found that to be a major challenge here. To be culturally significant is not to be "significant" in the eyes of those doing the general gatekeeping (and it is subjective, after all). That said, there was also a major discounting of cultural publications as well.
 * Once the article was restored to draft space, I started adding a list of features, interviews, and other pieces that could be additional sourcing for the article, but haven't really had a chance to work on it since then (which is last week already). I've just got other things going on with Chanukah coming up. Thank you @Dan, for the invitation to post for feedback. If you'd like to take a look at the draft as it stands (including the mess at the bottom with the potential sources), you can find it at Draft:Chanale. A considerable portion of the article is what existed before I took on its editing, and, based on the feedback I received from the deletion discussion, it seems like I've got a road ahead in reworking/re-sourcing/removing quite a bit of it.
 * Speaking of deleted articles, while doing some research for an end-of-year project I've got in the works, I was stunned to find that Netanel Hersthik doesn't have an article (more to the point, that there was one, but it was deleted as well). I'm thinking that will be my next thing here. GreenEli (talk) 15:09, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, for sure feel free to posts the drafts here for review.
 * Looking at Draft:Chanale I would say it reads somewhat like promotional material, I'm not sure if that is why they would have had issues with it before. It's not a big deal to me but I have observed before that it seems to cause harsher treatment of articles about living artists on here. Maybe rewrite the style a bit to seem less like a press release and more encyclopedic/descriptive. Dan Carkner (talk) 17:28, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Will do! I had thought I'd taken care of that before publishing, but it's certainly possible I didn't go far enough. (Check the history from before I started editing!) GreenEli (talk) 18:50, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:History of the Jews in Chicago
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:History of the Jews in Chicago that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. — Shibboleth ink  (♔ ♕) 14:36, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

GAR notice
Haifa has been nominated for a community good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Onegreatjoke (talk) 18:26, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Who is Agur?
I’m asking you a question who is Agur? 2600:6C5A:637F:CE3C:877:BDDB:6B34:674A (talk) 14:35, 29 December 2022 (UTC)


 * You'll have to be more specific. GordonGlottal (talk) 16:21, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
 * This is like the beginning of an ARG... A cryptic question with no accompanying background information, and the name of the person asking looks like a mac address.
 * Was the question intended to be on the article Agur? GreenEli (talk) 16:50, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Requesting support on a Jewish musician article
Over on the article for Chemy Soibelman, another editor (who I have to assume isn't super knowledgeable about Judaism) contested the subject being categorized as an Orthodox Jew since the article doesn't directly state that. I pointed out that a guy named Nechemia Soibelman, who has almost exclusively played in Orthodox Jewish and Israeli bands (including the Orthodox wedding band Blue Melody), who lists Yaakov Shwekey as an influence, and who is wearing a yarmulke in pretty much every photo available online being Jewish is a pretty reasonable assumption that wouldn't require spelling out for someone knowledgeable in this area (for context, I'm Jewish of Orthodox background). The other editor held their ground, insisting on a source, so to appease them I dug up this post from the subject's Instagram, where he is pictured wearing a kippah, tefillin, and tallit, and the caption is full of expressions like "hashem took your neshama to gan eden" and "daven for klal yisrael" and "may your neshama have an aliya" - all of which, to anyone familiar with Orthodox Judaism, pretty explicitly identifies him as part of it (or I guess a really dedicated Messianic). The other editor dismissed this as OR because, in their words, "just because he talks about jewish holidays or wears garb that Jewish people sometimes wear doesn't mean he's Jewish". *sigh*

Main thing I'm looking for here is a) affirmation that I'm not crazy and all of the above should be enough for a knowledgeable audience without needing a source to spell out "This person is an Orthodox Jew", and b) if someone from this project who is knowledgeable could at least watchlist that article and be prepared to serve as a third opinion if that editor decides to start this up again, that'd be incredibly helpful. Invisiboy42293 (talk) 22:30, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Chanale is back. Article overhauled and submitted to AfC
I'm going to start this off with apologies if I should be replying to the now-archived discussion I started on this article earlier.

I just finished up a complete overhaul of the article on American-Israeli singer Chanale that I'd been working on. Following its deletion and return to draft space, I took the time to dig deep into the details left over from the article's creator and original authors. I also corrected a bunch of errors in the details, about timing of things in her life, album release dates and whatnot. I think I've taken the entire tone and view of the article in a far better direction.

I still wasn't entirely sure what to do about some related items that don't directly reference her, so I put some in external links, and linked some others (mostly the mentioned podcast episodes) within the article itself. Sadly, I know that there was a feature done on her in Ami Living Magazine's Shabbos Chanukah 2021 issue but haven't been able to get my hands on a physical or digital copy to see for myself. From other features I've seen from the magazine, there's usually quite a lot from which to pull.

Still, I submitted the article to AfC. I'd love to get input on the new version, especially compared to the original. TIA GreenEli (talk) 17:05, 1 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi GreenEli, can you link to where the current draft is ? Sorry, I looked at recent threads on your talk page and didn't see it there either. Dan Carkner (talk) 23:12, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Project-independent quality assessments
See Village pump (proposals). This proposes support for quality assessment at the article level, recorded in WikiProject banner shell, and inherited by the wikiproject banners. However, wikiprojects that prefer to use custom approaches to quality assessment can continue to do so. Aymatth2 (talk) 20:41, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Kokebe Yizhak moved to draftspace
Hello, friends. An article I created, Kokebe Yizhak, based on The Jewish Encyclopedia article "KOKEBE YIẒḤAḲ", was recently moved to draftspace. My personal opinion is that if it was perfectly fine for The Jewish Encyclopedia, than it should be perfectly fine for Wikipedia as well. I wouldn’t disagree if it would be tagged with Template:One source, but I don’t think it deserves to be moved to draftspace. What do you think? Or is someone willing to add other sources and/or otherwise make it ready for mainspace? Thanks in advance for any help you can provide. -- -- -- 20:13, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Shraga Feivel Cohen moved to draftspace
Is anyone willing to assist in making this draft ready for mainspace? Thanks, -- -- -- 20:50, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Issues with Black Hebrew Israelites article
The article on Black Hebrew Israelites has multiple issues that need to be addressed to avoid racial bias on Wikipedia. The BHIs originated at a time when many white Christian denominations preached that Black people are the cursed descendants of Ham. That is the historical backdrop of the BHI claim that Black people are not only NOT cursed, but rather the chosen. That this historical background information is never mentioned in the article is astounding and is evidence that the article is insufficient. That the voices of actual Black Jews are mentioned nowhere in the article is another glaring omission. Black Jewish writers such as Shais Rishon, and I'm sure others, have written about the BHI appropriation of Black Jewish identity. The sentence in the opening paragraph about the SPLC considering BHIs to collectively constitute a "hate group" is contextless and inadequate. The SPLC states on their website that "SPLC uses the term Radical Hebrew Israelite to differentiate from the greater Hebrew Israelite faith...SPLC no longer refers to these groups as solely Black Hebrew Israelites...there are non-radical sects of the Hebrew Israelite faith who identify as Black Hebrew Israelites". This indicates that the SPLC distinguishes between extremist and non-extremist BHI sects, a nuance the current sentence obscures. These issues must be addressed to avoid anti-Blackness, stereotyping, and the erasure of Black Jews. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 04:41, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Yehuda Amit
Yehuda Amit has been proposed for deletion. Is anyone willing to assist? Thanks, -- -- -- 22:13, 2 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I made a deep enough search but I just couldn't find any reliable sources for this person. Just being a rosh yeshiva, dean, school principal or what have you doesn't confer automatic notability on a person for the purposes of this encyclopedia. If it were to be dePRODded and then later nominated for AfD, I highly doubt it would make it. <span style="font-family:ariel, serif;color:maroon">Havradim <span style="font-family:Ariel, serif;color: darkgreen">leaf a message  02:44, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks. -- -- -- 21:15, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

13th of Adar, Fast of Esther
Today is the Fast of Esther, and in its honor I have undertaken to WP:Boldly rewrite that article's lede sentence and section, along with those of several other articles of major importance to this project: antisemitism and antijudaism, and quite a few others as well, following the leading critical theory of, which should be read closely and cited all over wikipedia in the coming years. They all need more work in the article bodies, but I hope this breaks the ice. Chag purim sameach, Jaredscribe (talk) 00:07, 7 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Jaredscribe (talk) 00:35, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Antisemitism on page for "Supremacism"
The Jewish section of the Supremacism article is a hot mess of antisemitism. The portion on outreach to Noahides was claiming that Orthodox Judaism, or sects of it, are "racist" and believe non-Jews are "racially" inferior. I've removed some of the more outrageous language, but the entire section needs a clean-up. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 08:17, 26 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm a Noahide, I study with Orthodox rabbanan, and can confirm that they do not claim that. The claim is that the Torah is superior over idolatry, and that anyone who wants to can learn it.   By choosing Torah (not by biological genetics) jews and any one else can improve their spiritual, intellectual, and moral conditional.  I myself have done this, and I believe that they are right. Jaredscribe (talk) 22:52, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Next time just tag it right away using dubious or disputed. I did that just now, and will try to find some sources refuting this in the future. Jaredscribe (talk) 23:06, 6 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The concept of race is a form of human categorization, scientists know that races don't exist. However, I would also point out to the very first pages of Feldman's academic research on the Noahide community in the Philippines (2018), cited in the WP article on Supremacism;  she reports that the modern Noahide movement was founded by Orthodox Jewish and Religious Zionist rabbis from Israel in the 1990s, who have decidedly instructed the Filipino Noahides to believe that they are racially inferior to Jews and are forbidden from reading Jewish scriptures and performing Jewish rites and customs, as well as to support their messianic, supremacist movement in order to rebuild the third Jewish temple in Jerusalem:
 * "'Today, nearly 2,000 Filipinos consider themselves members of the ‘‘Children of Noah,’’ a new Judaic faith that is growing into the tens of thousands worldwide as ex-Christians encounter forms of Jewish learning online. Under the tutelage of Orthodox Jewish rabbis, Filipino ‘‘Noahides,’’ as they call themselves, study Torah, observe the Sabbath, and passionately support a form of messianic Zionism. Filipino Noahides believe that Jews are a racially superior people, with an innate ability to access divinity. According to their rabbi mentors, they are forbidden from performing Jewish rituals and even reading certain Jewish texts. These restrictions have necessitated the creation of new, distinctly Noahide ritual practices and prayers modeled after Jewish ones. Filipino Noahides are practicing a new faith that also affirms the superiority of Judaism and Jewish biblical right to the Land of Israel, in line with the aims of the growing messianic Third Temple Movement in Jerusalem.'"
 * GenoV84 (talk) 08:36, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Shalom Rozenfeld (also known as Rabbi Shalom of Kaminka) moved to draftspace
Is anyone willing to assist? Thanks, -- -- -- 22:17, 2 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I tried searching his full name on the Yiddish Book Center's OCR search and no results... would he be known by a particular shorter version of his name that's likely to appear in print? Dan Carkner (talk) 02:23, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for responding, Dan! You might want to try searching "שלום קאַמינקער". Quick Google searches for "Shalom of Kaminka" and "שלום מקמינקה" (Hebrew spelling) yield quite a few sources, but I'm not sure exactly which ones would be accepted by Wikipedia as reliable sources. Any assistance from you or from others would be appreciated. Meanwhile I'll try to work on this article myself. -- -- -- 19:43, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * With that "name" I was able to find a good number of minor hits in the Yiddish Book Center collection. However, most are just a passing mention, which can be good to establish facts but not necessarily notability. Do we know if there is any longer biographical description of him in books, even if they may not be in English? Dan Carkner (talk) 14:55, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, I found a description in מליצי אש (Hebrew) . I’ll add some information from there later (maybe tomorrow) when I’ll have a chance. Besides from that, the Hebrew Wikipedia provides an external link to this site and the Yiddish Wikipedia cites the books י"ג אורות and אנציקלופדיה לחכמי גליציה. Not sure if any of those are available online. -- -- -- 21:39, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I submitted the draft for review. Please feel free to improve it in the meantime. Thanks, -- -- -- 23:05, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Looking better already. If I may suggest some edits while you are looking at the sources (I have some other stuff to do for now), you can fill it out more with some very basic facts about his life: Where was he born, where did he live at different times, what year did he move cities if he did, where did he pass away, etc. And if place names are given that are not known internationally I think it makes sense to say which empire and province they were in, and if relevant say what larger city it was close to. Not suggesting this just to pad out the article but also because just a list of scholars and small places in Europe will not mean much to a casual reader, who may not have a context for what all these names mean. Dan Carkner (talk) 16:27, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks. -- -- -- 20:07, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Proposed changes to the lead of the article Psalms
Your comments and input on proposed changes to the lead section of the Psalms article would be appreciated at: Talk:Psalms.

--Chefallen (talk) 15:50, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Happy New Year! Nisan Hodesh Hodashim
1 Nisan began at sundown this evening.

Happy new year, ye priests, pilgrims, kings, and holy beggars!. Don't forget to fix your calendar.

Jaredscribe (talk) 04:29, 23 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I wish to inform you all of a moveable feast that is coming up called April 1st. Unlike passover which always occurs on the full moon, April 1st happens on a different day every year: this year it'll be on the 10 of Nisan - Saturday.  happy holidays everyone.
 * Jaredscribe (talk) 17:19, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Made some improvements to Badchen
Hello folks, I think I may have posted about this article in past years in this talk page or maybe another Jewish-related one. Anyhow this week I tried to make some scholarly improvements to the article Badchen and I found some nice public domain postcard illustrations to decorate the article, and rearranged the content somewhat. The two things I would be happy to get help on are current day Chassidic badchnonim, which in past years we had a hard time finding reputable sources about, and also feel free to add anything about their religious or social function in past centuries which I don't feel I fully understand even after researching it a while. Dan Carkner (talk) 16:31, 10 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Browsing through a Los Angeles public library, I encountered a book on Yiddish music and read a couple semi-random pages, that introduced me to the art of the Jewish Sacred Clown.
 * It mentioned Bob Dylan and interpreted him as being in the tradition of Eliakum Zunser
 * I had to leave, couldn't check out the book, and forgot the title and author. If you can find I will be grateful because I'd like to add this.
 * Jaredscribe (talk) 04:33, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Interesting. Went on Google Books and tried searching the text of the 2 books I was guessing (Henry Sapoznik and Yale Strom's books about klezmer) and neither seem to make that claim. Wonder which it was. Dan Carkner (talk) 15:56, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Now that my recall machine is getting warmed up, I recall that it was a recent work, and it might have been a Biography and literary critique of Bob Dylan.
 * Instead of putting him in the tradition of American rock-n-roll as most other critics do, this author (a Jewish) placed him in the history of yiddish music - compared him to Zunser, and his whole "jokerman" shtick to the badchen, and faulted other critics for ignoring the obviously Jewish aspects of his "secular prophet" stance, his christian and post-christian phases, and the rest of his ouevre. Jaredscribe (talk) 17:26, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I tried to add this to our article on Dylan
 * "In 1983 he appeared the bar mitzvah of his son Jesse Dylan at the wailing wall in Jerusalem"
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bob_Dylan&oldid=1131990371
 * But was promptly reverted because its "hardly notable". I think it illuminates alot of his music and lyrics, and is highly notable as coming right after his "christian phase" to which the article devotes a whole section.
 * This is somewhat afield from the "badchen" subject, but it sounds like you might be interested in more research than I'm able to do right now on this topic. May you be well and have success.
 * Jaredscribe (talk) 17:39, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
 * For myself, I would tend to not mention how modern celebrities are analogous to some kind of historical figure like this unless there is some more specific link. For example, early 20th C. Jewish vaudeville entertainers who actually were badchens or were exposed to real ones and incorporated the style, vs. several generations later the more general concept of Jewish entertainers or comedians as being akin to it. But I appreciate that you were suggesting it in good faith. Dan Carkner (talk) 16:07, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Discussion of interest
The discussion here, at Talk:Leo Frank, may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:21, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Edits to the List of Jewish states and dynasties
Hi, I just reverted some edits to the List of Jewish states and dynasties that I found less than neutral. I think that there is some bias that needs to be corrected in the list, but that process should not introduce more bias than it removes. I have invited the editor in question to discuss proposed changes on the article's talk page. I ask those on this project to monitor the article & to engage in constructive discussion on how to improve this list article. Peaceray (talk) 14:41, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

===Discussion at Talk:List of Jewish states and dynasties § Did attempts to change POV in this list go too far & make it more biased?=== You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:List of Jewish states and dynasties § Did attempts to change POV in this list go too far & make it more biased?. Peaceray (talk) 15:28, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Project-independent quality assessments
Quality assessments by Wikipedia editors rate articles in terms of completeness, organization, prose quality, sourcing, etc. Most wikiprojects follow the general guidelines at Content assessment, but some have specialized assessment guidelines. A recent Village pump proposal was approved and has been implemented to add a class parameter to WikiProject banner shell, which can display a general quality assessment for an article, and to let project banner templates "inherit" this assessment.

No action is required if your wikiproject follows the standard assessment approach. Over time, quality assessments will be migrated up to WikiProject banner shell, and your project banner will automatically "inherit" any changes to the general assessments for the purpose of assigning categories.

However, if your project has decided to "opt out" and follow a non-standard quality assessment approach, all you have to do is modify your wikiproject banner template to pass WPBannerMeta a new custom parameter. If this is done, changes to the general quality assessment will be ignored, and your project-level assessment will be displayed and used to create categories, as at present. Aymatth2 (talk) 20:49, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

User:DGG/History of Jews in American banking, User:DGG/Jewish stereotypes in banking and finance, User:DGG/Jews in the history of American film
User:DGG has recently passed away, but he left behind partially completed userspace drafts that may be of interest to this project: Please see if anything can be done with this content. Thanks. BD2412 T 17:18, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
 * User:DGG/History of Jews in American banking
 * User:DGG/Jewish stereotypes in banking and finance
 * User:DGG/Jews in the history of American film


 * Note: On further examination, User:DGG/History of Jews in American banking and User:DGG/Jewish stereotypes in banking and finance were both initiated by the long-absent User:Pseudo-Richard, and taken over by User:DGG with an expressed intent to provide non-antisemetic coverage of these topics. BD2412  T 15:28, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Moloch
This discussion on whether/how to include an IP's addition to the article Moloch might be of interest to members of this project.--Ermenrich (talk) 13:27, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Rachel
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Rachel that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. – Material  Works  11:57, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Apocalypse
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Apocalypse that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. – Material  Works  21:00, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Talk:Muhammad
Discussion about including the story about Muhammad being poisoned by a Jewish woman, Zaynab bint Al-Harith, in Muhammad, for the interested. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:52, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

The Status Quo Ladder in Jerusalem
One of my friends has this to say about this article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_Quo_%28Jerusalem_and_Bethlehem%29?fbclid=IwAR2pZZymDQxgelJJOFtvY0goXt578YQXAo-lTkXyOOppotvvYZ0SzEzO2Aw#%27Immovable_ladder%27?wprov=sfla1

"The article does not mention that the Tomb of the Patriarchs, which is in Hebron, is also a contested site between Jews and Muslims probably because it is not subject to the same agreements. The article also seems to omit that Muslims do have a history of taking other peoples' holy sites into MUslim sites (like the Temple Mount and the Tomb of the Patriarchs) building mosques on them and claiming they are Muslim holy sites. In fact, it is now fashionable amongst the anti-Israel Arabs to claim that the Jews never had a Temple on the Temple Mount despite the literary and archeological evidence that we did. Part of my point is that these days, everything in the Middle East has been politicized. I noticed, for instance that the third paragraph refers to the "1947-1948 Palestine war" by which I assume they mean Israel's War of Independence, in which invading Arab armies, sworn to the destruction of Israel at its birth, invaded Israel. As to the battles between the Christian sects, it might make sense to think of those as battles over authenticity, over who the "real" Christians with the proper doctrine are. In any event, be well."

He's not up for editing the article, and I don't have the background knowledge, but maybe someone here would like to take a crack at it. Wordsoutloud (talk) 15:19, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Discussion at Notability (academics)
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Notability (academics), which is within the scope of this WikiProject. DMacks (talk) 18:05, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

An RfC of interest
An RfC of possible interest to the editors of this article can be found here.

Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:02, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Credibility bot
As this is a highly active WikiProject, I would like to introduce you to Credibility bot. This is a bot that makes it easier to track source usage across articles through automated reports and alerts. We piloted this approach at Vaccine safety and we want to offer it to any subject area or domain. We need your support to demonstrate demand for this toolkit. If you have a desire for this functionality, or would like to leave other feedback, please endorse the tool or comment at WP:CREDBOT. Thanks! Harej (talk) 17:31, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Review page Creed
I tidied up Creed, which focuses on Christian creeds but also lists an argument for a Jewish creed with no source and vague textual references. That argument needs some eyes and verification. Pingnova (talk) 00:39, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:History of the Jews in Turkey
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:History of the Jews in Turkey that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. —usernamekiran (talk) 21:00, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

How is the book of Jasher so important?
If this book is very important, how come it is not part of the Old Testament?or the Bible? Please don't get me wrong, all book are important once it serve the right purpose... Knowledge process (talk) 03:08, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Jewish identity guidelines
Does WikiProject Judaism or WikiProject Jewish history have guidelines for when to classify subjects of biographic articles as "Jewish", "people of Jewish descent", etc? I have not seen any such guidance. I have noticed that many editors, who may be coming from a non-Jewish perspective and may not understand Jewish identity, inaccurately classify many Jews as non-Jews. I have seen Jewish descriptors removed from articles about secular Jews, formerly religious Jews referred to as "former Jews", and so forth. I have seen people placed into categories as being merely "people of Jewish descent", when they are indeed Jews. These presumably non-Jewish editors seem to not comprehend that Jewish identity is not only a religious identity, but a socio-cultural and ethnic identity as well. I have also seen non-Jewish Messianic Christians classified as Jews, when Jewish communities and Jewish movements overwhelmingly reject this self-identification.

One more issue; the categories for Ashkenazim, Sephardim, etc. There seems to be no guidance for when to classify a person as Ashkenazi or Sephardi. The categories are currently organized according to ancestry. People with both Ashkenazi and Sephardi ancestors are typically categorized as both. Ashkenazi and Sephardi identity is more complicated than that. Being Ashkenazi or Sephardi can be considered a person's minhag, their ethnicity, or both. An Ashkenazi Orthodox woman who marries a Sephardi man may adopt her husband's minhag and consider herself Sephardi. A person with mixed ancestry and an Ashkenazi father may only consider themselves Ashkenazi, due to minhag being passed down on the patrilineal line. A convert through Chabad will adopt an Ashkenazic minhag. I think it would be useful to clarify these distinctions in articles and categories and clearly state how we are classifying people.

For these reasons and others, I think it could be useful to have inclusive but clear guidelines for determining Jewish identity. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 10:02, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Lithuanian Jews
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Lithuanian Jews that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. – robertsky (talk) 15:35, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:History_of_the_Jews_and_Judaism_in_the_Land_of_Israel
There is currently a discussion around changing the name of the page from History of the Jews and Judaism in the Land of Israel to “History of the Jews and Judaism in Israel-Palestine. This may be of interest to members of this wikiproject. Mistamystery (talk) 18:17, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Mashriqi Jews
Is Mashriqi Jews a salvagable article, or should it be AfD'd? Marcocapelle (talk) 17:13, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * It seems to be just a list that redirects to the other, more specific pages. It does not seem to be especially harmful to me, for one. Thank you, warshy <sup style="font-variant: small-caps; color: #129dbc;">(¥¥) 22:31, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * It’s salvageable, but we need to do a cleaner edit of the Jewish Ethnic Divisions page. Right now there is too much confusion and overlap on terms like “Mizrahi” and “Sephardic” just to start. Not to mention an overall lack of familiarity with terms like “Mashriqi” and “Maghrebi”
 * Start at the Jewish Ethnic Divisions page and then work on down from there, is my recommendation.
 * Mistamystery (talk) 18:19, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Judaism in association football
I have created a long overdue article, Judaism in association football - any help expanding it is much welcome. GiantSnowman 18:14, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Proposed merger of Antisemitism in the United States in the 21st century into Antisemitism in the United States
Hello - I have proposed a merger of Antisemitism in the United States in the 21st century into Antisemitism in the United States as I don't see any reason why this should be split or duplicated. If anyone from this WikiProject can help improve the latter article (i.e. providing more of a historical background on American antisemitism) or has any other thoughts, they would be very much appreciated at Talk:Antisemitism in the United States. GnocchiFan (talk) 12:28, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Jewish months
The Jewish month are traditionally counted from Nissan. Thus, the order of months in Hebrew calendar and in Template:Jewish and Israeli holidays starts from Nissan. However, ever since recent edits by User:Abel Hauer, in the short descriptions, as well as in the Hebrew month template, placed at the top of the articles about the Jewish months, they are counted from Tishrei. I propose to change this back as per previous consensus.

In addition, another editor, editing alternately as a registered and an unregistered account, has tried to change the short description so as to reflect both the "ecclesiastic" and the "civil" year, where the "civil" year is considered to start with Tishrei. However, since the months are counted unequivocally from Nissan (as opposed to years), I oppose this. In addition I also oppose this, since it would make the short description too long and detailed. Debresser (talk) 17:43, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Modern Jewish historiography
DYK candidate, and could use more eyes from knowledgeable folks. Andre<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">🚐 01:01, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

How to treat approbations/haskamot as sources? Content dispute on Yosef Mizrachi page
In the talk page of Yosef Mizrachi, there is a question about how Wikipedia treats haskamot/approbations found in books by the subject of the entry (Yosef Mizrachi). One view is that the approbations can be used as a source for their writers' opinions about Mizrachi - is there a standard practice or policy with these approbations? Relatedly, the book in question is published by Haketer institute which one editor believes confers reliability on the approbations. I appreciate that this may be a question for the Reliable Sources noticeboard, but is anyone familiar with this publisher, or can weigh in whether this is valid? Samuelshraga (talk) 08:33, 17 October 2023 (UTC)


 * The framing of the question about publishers and accolades with a qualifying statement about adding opinions distracts from the two essential points you wish to clarify. If there is a desire to raise a third question about whether editors are allowed to add their opinions, the answer remains 'no.' A more direct approach would be to address the two key questions you posed: firstly, whether accolades can be cited according to Wikipedia guidelines, and secondly, whether publishers confer credibility on the sources they publish (the answer is yes).
 * Regarding your first question: given that accolades are the appropriate means to cite such information from a book, and the form in which statements of support typically appear in Jewish literature, it appears unjust to require it in a different form.
 * In response to your second question, the suggestion that publishers do not enhance the credibility of the books they publish doesn't align with convention. Reputable publishers bolster the credibility of the books they publish through rigorous vetting processes. Their involvement and track record contribute significantly to the trustworthiness of the work. If it's not the publishers, then what other factor would enhance the credibility of these works?
 * Haketer Institute, specifically, has a track record of publishing substantial works. For instance, a quick Google search reveals they've published heavyweight titles like 'Yalkut Yosef' by the Chief Rabbi of Israel. They have also been recognized with prestigious awards, including the Rav Kook Prize. It's not entirely clear why you have such heavy scrutiny of this publisher. If you have original research suggesting they are unreliable, we're open to seeing it. Nycarchitecture212 (talk) 08:49, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
 * If there is a desire to raise a third question about whether editors are allowed to add their opinions, the answer remains 'no.' No other opinions about reputable sources are allowed on a collaborative project such as Wikipedia? Really?... the suggestion that publishers do not enhance the credibility of the books they publish doesn't align with convention. Reputable publishers bolster the credibility of the books they publish through rigorous vetting processes. Their involvement and track record contribute significantly to the trustworthiness of the work. Is the Institute for Historical Review therefore also to be considered a publisher which enhances the credibility of books they publish? They publish a lot of books for a niche audience too. They even have an article here. Define rigorous vetting processes. Taking your points at a little further, if Willis Carto were to write an approbation for David Irving in which he lauded him as a 'brilliant historian', should we then be able to state this fact in his lead paragraph? If you have original research suggesting they are unreliable, we're open to seeing it. Who is 'we'? Since almost 3/4 of your edits here have been about Yosef Mizrachi, I will ask you again: Are you editing on behalf of Yosef Mizrachi, his family or his organisation? <span style="font-family:ariel, serif;color:maroon">Havradim  <span style="font-family:Ariel, serif;color: darkgreen">leaf a message  00:39, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The Institute for Historical Review is often seen as an unreliable publisher, raising valid concerns about the trustworthiness of the works it produces. It's interesting to note that this choice of example inadvertently strengthens the argument via kal v'chomer: reliable sources typically enhance the credibility of the materials they cite, whereas less reputable ones may have the opposite effect. In contrast, the HaKeter Institute is an award-winning publishing house with a strong track record of heavyweight titles.
 * While we anticipate feedback from fellow editors regarding citation rules for accolades and the influence of publishers on credibility, we should avoid making baseless claims. Allegations of conflicts of interest or connections to Yosef Mizrachi can be harmful and are inappropriate. My Wikipedia contributions align with the platform's guidelines. Due to my limited availability, I usually focus on just a couple of articles at a time. Let's concentrate on content and refrain from casting aspersions, adopting a confrontational tone, making unwarranted assumptions, or weaving false narratives.
 * Remember, this page, like all online content, is a public resource. Maintaining a respectful and constructive atmosphere is crucial for collaborative editing. Consistent editing standards should be applied, and the removal of substantial sections should only occur with community consensus. Bullying will not be tolerated, and logical discussions on the talk page are essential. While I have concerns about other sections not even mentioned yet, I haven't made any changes yet because we are awaiting input from other editors on these points first, and I expect that restraint to be reciprocated. As you previously mentioned on the talk page, the article is quite sensitive, and we should proceed with caution. We should wait for input from others and heed the advice you've shared.
 * Characterizing my talk page contributions this way is misleading and unhelpful. I've noticed that you continue to remove quotes from reliable, non-primary sources, which raises concerns. Accolades are an appropriate way to cite statements of support, and they often enhance the credibility of a book, especially when they come from reputable publishers that conduct rigorous vetting. If it's not the publishers, what other factors contribute to the credibility of these works? And if not accolades, in what other form do statements of support typically appear in Jewish books? These are not rhetorical questions; they require answers. Without evidence suggesting unreliability, there is no justification for deleting text that adheres to Wikipedia guidelines.
 * Furthermore, you've removed unrelated content Arutz Sheva without discussing it on the talk page, such as Rabbi Mizrachi has "revolutionized the use of social media for Orthodox Jewish outreach and has spoken to irreligious audiences throughout his career." Let's refrain from making such deletions without prior discussion. Does that make sense? Nycarchitecture212 (talk) 03:56, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * @Havradim: I find your approach to be hostile and there are polices in place against this.
 * Point of View (POV) railroading is the use of bullying tactics to discredit an editor with an opposing viewpoint or to eliminate them from a discussion. Railroading tactics can include frustrating the editor, hostility that discourages them from participating, or creating a false narrative that misrepresents actual events or edits in order to discredit the editor. These tactics are used to win an argument or take control of an article or topic area by focusing on the editor rather than the edits and editing process.
 * Editors may attack or discredit another editor using a distorted interpretation of Wikipedia's behavioral policies and guidelines. They may quote policies in misleading ways, by citing them out of context, with extreme interpretations and without relevant disclaimers and exceptions. In other cases, a "policy bomb"—known as "alphabet soup"—may be used to overwhelm an editor with accusations of violations so numerous and so vague that the targeted editor feels intimidated.
 * Tactics can include continuously and exclusively referring to a user in a negative manner, the continuous use of personal attacks that escalate in severity over time and the casting of aspersions in a generalized manner, without providing any actual qualification for the claims, such as diffs, instead basing claims upon proof by assertion.
 * Another tactic is to continuously mislabel the target as a disruptive editor in various venues, in deliberate attempts to mischaracterize entirely normative, civil and functional actions as deviant. Nycarchitecture212 (talk) 04:21, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * This page is for discussing the propriety of using rabbinic approbations as a source for praising an article subject. In this case, it involves Reuven Elbaz and Yitzhak Yosef approving (allegedly—the source is offline) of Yosef Mizrachi. Samuelshraga and myself are not keen to include it, and you are. That means that you currently have no consensus to include it, so the WP:BURDEN falls on you to prove it is worthy, which you have not done so far. My contribution here is done, pending the input of others. In the meantime, I am letting you know that while your input is welcome here, your walls of text, WP:BLUDGEONing and WP:OWNERSHIP behaviour are not. <span style="font-family:ariel, serif;color:maroon">Havradim <span style="font-family:Ariel, serif;color: darkgreen">leaf a message  05:05, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I'd like to clarify my perspective on the source's status and the ongoing conversation. The source under discussion is a published book by HaKeter Institute, so it's not an offline source. If you've been following the talk page and discussion with Samuelshraga, this would have been evident.
 * Steam-rolling a disagreeing editor with Wikipedia policy and guideline violations is against Wikipedia's code of conduct. I added the description of POV railroading above for your reference. To facilitate better communication, let's avoid vague alphabet soup references to policies and characterizing contributions as 'walls of text', which suggests you didn't even read the response to your questions. Each sentence was carefully considered, and it's important for both of us to feel respected in this conversation.
 * To find common ground and reach a consensus, could we perhaps consider potential solutions together? I value your input and perspective. At this moment though, I'd prefer to hold off on further messages until we've had a chance to hear from other editors. Thank you for understanding. Nycarchitecture212 (talk) 06:20, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I read everything you wrote. You said The Institute for Historical Review is often seen as an unreliable publisher, raising valid concerns about the trustworthiness of the works it produces. Why do you suppose that might that be? Could it possibly be because they espouse Holocaust denial? Well, this Haketer Institute you are using purportedly agreed to publish Mizrachi, someone who engaged in Holocaust revisionism. Although he apologized, I haven't seen anywhere that he walked back his belief that only 1 million Jews died in the Holocaust. Therefore this source, which you've not even provided a link to in order to verify its veracity anyway (offline—we have to take your word for it) should not be depended on for the above reasons. <span style="font-family:ariel, serif;color:maroon">Havradim <span style="font-family:Ariel, serif;color: darkgreen">leaf a message  07:56, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Rabbi Mizrachi did not engage in Holocaust revisionism, and I intend to update that section of the article in the future. He said that not all of the Jews who died in the Holocaust are halachicially Jewish, and he is correct. Someone with a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother is halachically not Jewish. For the Nazis, they are one and the same, but halachically, they are different. He was taken out of context, and apologized for this. I will address your concerns in the future. At this moment though, I'd prefer to hold off on further messages until we've had a chance to hear from other editors. Thank you for understanding. Nycarchitecture212 (talk) 08:02, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * So you are saying that 5 out of the 6 million Jews who died in the Holocaust weren't Jewish? <span style="font-family:ariel, serif;color:maroon">Havradim <span style="font-family:Ariel, serif;color: darkgreen">leaf a message  08:48, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * No, I never said that, G-d forbid, and frankly, it doesn't matter, we are discussing Rabbi Mizrachi's views on the Holocaust, not mine, which you brought up. If you look at his actual quote however, he never said it was 5 million and never implied any of the horrible things you're suggesting. Happy to discuss this at a future point, and that section of the article definitely needs editing, but right now we should continue to wait for input from other editors on the outstanding items before taking on others.
 * The Mishna (Kiddushin 66b) states that if a child’s mother is not Jewish, the child is not Jewish. And this in fact is the halacha codified in the Code of Jewish Law (Shulchan Aruch Even Haezer 8:5), and in Rambam’s Mishna Torah (Forbidden Relations 15:4).
 * https://ohr.edu/7242 Nycarchitecture212 (talk) 09:28, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I stand corrected. It seems he said it once on tape, and then retracted. Our source on the matter says, "In his comments regarding the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust, Mizrahi claimed that the level of intermarriage across Europe before the Second World War was 80 percent, and that five million of the six million Jews killed in the Holocaust were therefore not Jewish according to Jewish law since Jewish law requires a person's mother to be Jewish ... The rabbi continued saying 'I have been shown the accurate statistics and I realize that those that were not halachically Jewish were a very small minimal number,' adding that he had not wished to offend any holocaust survivors or their family members." But if the number is that small, why bother mentioning it at all? Does it really make any difference if we say 100% of the 6 million were Jews, or only 98% or 95% were? The article says that he comes from the financial sector, so how could he make such a mistake of 78 or 75 points? Maybe he meant to say that 80% were Jewish, because they did not intermarry? You stated He said that not all of the Jews who died in the Holocaust are halachicially Jewish, and he is correct. Do you know what his corrected estimate actually is? <span style="font-family:ariel, serif;color:maroon">Havradim  <span style="font-family:Ariel, serif;color: darkgreen">leaf a message  10:21, 26 October 2023 (UTC)