Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism/Archive 8

Arbcom
I'd like to ask for the support of the members of Wikipedia:WikiProject Judaism in the Arbcom race I understand that the goals of WikiProject Judaism have been hampered to the extreme by many of the sitting members of Arbitration Committee; and I have been a consistent critic of these decisions... The most prolific and skilled contributors to our articles on Jewish studies frankly have suffered systematic persecution at the hands of the Arbcom. As we speak a scholar like RK is banned from sharing his wealth of knowledge with us while users like, say, Lir and Sam Spade are not only allowed to stay on as editors but also run for positions on the Arbcom. Arbcom has also led Adam Carr to stop contributing to all non-Australian topics-- including Jewish studies-- while affording the disciples of the proven fascist/anti-Semite Lyndon LaRouche a free reign across all topics... If our work on Wiki is to be worthwhile, we must focus on recruiting arbitrators who can differentiate scholars from crackpots; and I think that most of the members of this project are aware that I can do this. 172 06:14, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth you've got my vote. Good Luck! Rje 01:17, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Category:Jewish law and rituals
Category:Jewish law and rituals is full of all sorts of articles that relate to Judaism. It needs subcategorization, or, better, renaming into several categories. A rough idea follows. (I've only listed on it articles that are currently in Category:Jewish law and rituals or in Category:Jewish liturgy (not including subcategories thereof).) Category:Judaism Category:Concepts in Judaism Jewish views of homosexuality Jewish view of marriage Cherem Bar mitzvah Ger Toshav Ger tzedek Matrilineality Shidduch Category:Jewish liturgy (or Category:Jewish prayer, or Category:Jewish prayers, or Category:Jewish prayers and blessings) List of Jewish Prayers and Blessings Aleinu Amidah Birkat HaHammah Counting of The Omer Haftarah Kaddish Kol Nidre Mahzor Shema Yisrael Siddur Jewish services Category:Jewish laws Ablution in Judaism Anointing Brit milah Chanukah rituals Etrog Hechsher Kashrut Kitniyot Halizah Clean animal Leshon ha-Ra Lifnei iver Lulav Male circumcision 39 categories of activity Korban Matzo Menorah Mezuzah Mikvah Nazirite Niddah Redemption of First-born Shechita Shiv'ah  Shofar Tallit Tefillin Tzedakah Tzeniut Tzitzit Unclean animal Yahrzeit Yarmulke Yibbum Category:Jewish law (or Category:Halacha, or Category:Halakha) 613 mitzvot Halakha Mitzvah Mosaic law Noahide Laws Oral law Posek Category:Jewish offices and titles Category:Rabbis [intact as it is now] Beth din Hazzan Kohen Mohel Bar mitzvah Chevra kadisha Ger Toshav Ger tzedek Posek Sanhedrin Semicha Category:Synagogues [intact as it is now] Unclear where: Zeved habat (Yes, I know that Posek, Bar mitzvah, ger Toshav, and ger tzedek appear twice (each) in the above list.) What think you all?  &mdash;msh210 21:49, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Hi Msh210: I think that the category should be left alone for now. It has about 60+ entries of its own. It was hard enough to find, gather and collect them into this one category of Category:Jewish law and rituals as they were spread all over Wikipedia (I should know as I collected them and created the category) and to split them up now into smaller categories would be self-defeating as it would again split and splinter them up and make it hard to find these topics. One problem initially was that some things are derived from Torah law and others are the well-accepted "customs" and "rituals of Judaism, and then ther are the divergent levels of accpatance of these "Laws and rituals" by the different "branches" of Orthodox Judaism (and Haredi Judaism), Conservative Judaism, and Reform Judaism. Put together though the category does reflect the reality of Jewish (religious) observance/s overall. '''So please do NOT split them up at this point. What I do suggest is that you point to specific articles you feel should not be in the Category:Jewish law and rituals and where they should or would belong. Thank you. IZAK 08:41, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Some critiques of your schemata as presented above: IZAK 09:24, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC):
 * Category:Concepts in Judaism
 * The usage of "Concepts" is very problematic. Ultimately, everything in Judaism can be reduced to a "concept" when seen through the light of theoretical discussions (isn't that what "Torah/Talmud study" is about?) But eventually, after all the commandments are studied they are then applied and become practical and compulsory laws and rituals for the observant and not so observant Jew. To the non-Jew, much of it may seem like "an exercise in theoretical Pilpul." So it is a dangerous slippery slope to start a process of saying "well this is a 'concept' but this is a 'law'."
 * Cherem: This is not a "concept" it's a law that is still applied by a Beth Din in Orthodox Judaism, but not used by others.
 * Ger tzedek is not a "concept", as it is a law of the Torah to accept converts (the ger tzedek).
 * Matrilineality is NOT a "concept" as it's the bedrock of Halakha (law) that defines who is a Jew according to both Orthodox Judaism and Conservative Judaism (they call it a law) but is rejected by Reform Judaism and Reconstructionist Judaism(who may call it a "ritual" or custom no longer observed by them).
 * Category:Jewish liturgy
 * The naming is too nebulous, because for the Orthodox, prayer is law with many fixed times and order of saying/praying things, and with many rituals, but for the secular Jews who hardly attend services it's maybe more like "Church services" which "liturgy" sounds like. Thus "Jewish prayer" is better, but again is it law or ritual/custom to pray?
 * Counting of The Omer is not "liturgy", it's a law according to Orthodoxy and maybe a "ritual" at best for the non-Orthodox.
 * Kaddish is not just "liturgy" it's a very widely accepted and practiced verbal "ritual" by all streams of Judaism.
 * Shema Yisrael is a "law" according to Orthodox Judaism and a widely accepted "prayer" and "ritual" by others.
 * You have two lists: "Category:Jewish laws" and then you list "Category:Jewish law (or Category:Halacha, or Category:Halakha)" which is it to be according to you. It's not clear how the subjects got divided, what "criteria" are at work??
 * All the streams of Judaism DISAGREE about what is or is not binding "Halakha", and due to these wide differences that name was deliberately avoided to prevent friction.
 * Category:Jewish offices and titles
 * The problem here is that it's name reaches outside the realm of pure Judaism, and is more about Category:Jews as people. What about all the heads of non-religious organizations (many listed in Category:Jewish organizations) should they be included since they have titles of Jewish organizations? Let us leave the Category:Rabbis alone (as you have done) and include the others in Category:Jewish law and rituals as a Hazzan or Mohel are part of the rituals.
 * Category:Rabbis are more than just "offices" and "titles", they are the one and only reliable TEACHERS of Judaism, and have been for over 2,000 years.
 * Chevra kadisha: what kind of "office" is that?
 * Semicha is neither an "office" nor a "title".

The above are just some of the serious flaws of your suggestions and why I think that for now you leave things alone and not rock the fragile boat of Category:Judaism until such time as there are many more articles to work with. Thanks again. IZAK 09:24, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Help
This doesn't have much to do with the project, but can someone take a look at Operation Entebbe and give an opinion on whether the original title of the 1977 Israel-made film on this topic would be rendered Mivtsa Jonatan or Mitsva Jonatan? See also that article's talk page. Thanks. Ellsworth 22:21, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Mivtsa or Mivtza means "campaign" or "battle", whereas Mitsva or Mitzva/h means "commandment". IZAK 03:59, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thanks! Ellsworth 21:19, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Discussion on Ladinokomunita
Recently, there where several e-mails on the "Ladinokomunita" mailing list about the various Jewish ethnic groups, including the Sepharadim, the Mizrahim, the Gruzim, three groups of Indian Jews -Cochin, Bene Israel and "Bagdadjis" (Bagdad Jews)-, Chinese jews etc. I urge those who can read Ladino/Spanish to have a look on the list's archive here. Etz Haim 23:53, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Jewish prayers (talk moved from main page)
I see that we're lacking coverage of some common prayers in Jewish services (at least the ones in my (Reform siddur, Gates of Prayer for Shabbat and Weekdays (published by the Central Conference of American Rabbis and widely distributed). We're missing the V'ahavta, Mi Chamocha, Ata Gibor, V'sham'ru, and Oseh Shalom. The Shalom Aleichem article covers the greeting but not the prayer. On a related note, list of Jewish prayers and blessings is up on VfD. I encourage everyone to vote aganist the deletion. Neutralitytalk 05:12, July 21, 2005 (UTC)
 * For most of these, it is hard to decide whether they should be considered stand-alone prayers. If I have understood the references correctly, V'ahavta is part of the Sh'ma; Mi Chamocha appears twice in the different blessings after the Sh'ma in the morning and the evening; it is also a verse said in Shirat Hayam; Ata Gibor is the second blessing (Gevura) in the Amida; V'Sham'ru is a biblical passage said before the amida for maariv of Shabbat, as well as in the kiddush for shabbat at lunch; Oseh Shalom is probably worth doing as it is present as a stand-alone song, but is the closing line of the amida, Grace after meals and full kaddish. --jnothman talk 05:58, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
 * The V'ahavta is not a part of the Sh'ma. Neutralitytalk 20:56, July 21, 2005 (UTC)
 * So which V'ahavta do you mean? --jnothman talk 23:55, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
 * While Ve'ahavta is (the beginning of) a recitation of (portions of) Torah, it is most certainly a part of שמע, which is, itself, an excerpt of Torah...to the extent, especially for the Ve'ahavta portion, that those who stand for Shma` stand through ve'ahavta, even if they sit down after that for the rest of the recitation of uh...shma`. My minhag is to sit for shma`, so this doesn't affect me, but I think it's pretty clear that that whole paragraph, i.e., the ve'ahavta portion is part of Shma`, given that the brakhoth that precede qri`ath shma` conclude with the recitation of "shma` yisrael..." and the brakhoth that follow begin after "...emeth"...and that the whole thing is considered a single prayer.  Tomer TALK  04:18, July 22, 2005 (UTC)
 * Birkat Hamazon should definitely be given its own article, as it is the only prayer that we are commanded to recite by the Torah. "When you have eaten your fill, bless Adonai your God for the good land which He has given you" (Deuteronomy 8:10).

We should avoid a proliferation of articles. The content of the list of Jewish prayers and blessings should be merged with the relevant articles, as it is otherwise ripe for transwiki.

I think the berachot of the Shema should be with Shema Yisrael (with redirects if necessary), specific Shabbat prayers on that page etc. This would lead to longer articles but at least it is easier to establish context, instead of having to reinvent the wheel on every page (e.g. explain that Shacharit is said in the morning). Most individual prayers also have doubtful notability outside their context. JFW | T@lk  06:46, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Jewish texts template (talk moved from main page)
Please see Template talk:Jewish texts where someone has tried to create a template with many problems. What are your thoughts please? IZAK 06:09, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Requested articles (talk moved from main page)
"When a Jewish person dies, a watch is kept over the body and Tehillim (Psalms) are recited constantly by sun or candlight, until the burial service. Historically, this watch would be carried out by the immediate family – usually in shifts – but what usually happens today is that the funeral home will offer someone to keep this vigil.""&mdash; &lt; T A L K JNDRLINE T A L K &gt;"
 * Do we have an article covering Jewish burial and funeral practices? RK
 * I haven't found one, but don't have enough for a page. I added "Tehillim" to the Template:JewishLifeCycle, and the following unclean text to Book of Psalms:

I would bet that some relevant material could be gleaned from Samuel C. Heilman, When a Jew Dies: The Ethnography of a Bereaved Son, University of California Press, 2001. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:23, September 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * Online?
 * &mdash; &lt; T A L K JNDRLINE T A L K &gt;      16:55, 1 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I've been playing with a conceptual draft at Jewish bereavement/draft, if anyone wants to help make it beefy and fleshig.
 * &mdash; &lt; T A L K JNDRLINE T A L K &gt;      16:55, 1 September 2005 (UTC)


 * If it's beefy, isn't it already fleishig? :-p  When the article is "finished", it should probably be renamed Bereavement in Judaism.  Tomer TALK  21:37, September 2, 2005 (UTC)

New Page: Jewish Bereavement (talk moved from main page)
No one came to help (see above) so I'm just going to post it incomplete. Please see Jewish bereavement to add your two-cents. It's too large to write by myself -- I've been copying and pasting and reorganising for days. --Jndrline 21:56, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Hey. What am I?  Chopped liver?  :-p Tomer TALK  22:53, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
 * Lol!! --jnothman talk 11:11, 3 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I followed up on the blank Av HaRachamim page. It is still a stub. How do you handle the copyrights on the prayer itself? I put links into the yizkor.org web site. Joaquin Murietta 05:48, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

New Page: Brit-Dam (talk moved from main page)
Please see Talk:Brit-dam to add your two-cents.
 * Was moved to Dam Brit, then added to Brit milah. --Jndrline 21:16, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

RFC: One land - Two names (talk moved from main page)
Please comment at Talk:Palestine (region) and Talk:Palestine (region). &larr;Humus sapiens&larr;ну? 08:22, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

RFC: Jewish Eschatology (talk moved from main page)
"Eschatology has a focus of the 'end of days,' which for many Jews is the Messianic Era. Moshiach has a focus of the Messianic figure. Olam Haba (which redirects to this article) has to do with the Afterlife.  This article doesn't seem to pick one.  And if it did, it should pick the first, based on its title.  I have two issues I want to take up: 1) that this focuses on the latter two, and doesn't seem to address the first at all 2) that Olam Haba redirects here."

Please comment at Talk:Jewish_eschatology, thank you.

&mdash; &lt; T A L K JNDRLINE T A L K &gt;     23:52, 21 September 2005 (UTC)