Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies/Archive 36

User Vigilius4
I ask here for help to deal with problematic revertations of user Vigilius4: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=LGBT_parenting&action=history --Destinero (talk) 05:37, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

BB Gandanghari
Can someone take a look at this article and see if the transgender issues are being handled appropriately. Thanks! Active Banana (talk) 03:19, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Laura Antoniou and The Marketplace series
Hey folks -

I attempted to do an expnded entry to Laura Antoniou's entry, but was denied because of my personal relationship with the author. Because she is of interest to this group, I'm wondering if anyone here would like to take a look through the entry's editing history (which includes extensive references), and take their own shot at it? Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by VivianSinclair (talk • contribs) 21:38, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

I also wanted to note that the Marketplace series is the longest running series of novels featuring a transman as the main character. VivianSinclair (talk) 18:07, 8 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree that Laura Antoniou is an important writer for LGBT themes. There are some comments on the talk page from editors questioning her notability. I added some references  but there is a lot more that can be done. Any project members interested in this topic, please comment on the talk page or add sources to the Laura Antoniou page.  --Yes, Grasshopper (talk) 19:41, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Dusty Springfield GA Review
A GA Review of the Dusty Springfield article for which this project has a talkpage tag has started and is on hold to allow improvements to be made. Please go to Talk:Dusty Springfield/GA1 to see fuller comments. Regards  SilkTork  *YES! 21:37, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Categorization of subjects and Douglas Coupland
I do not understand the process or the documentation needed to place someone in the LGBT category. For instance, I was surprised to see Douglas Coupland, Canadian writer, listed in the Gay Writers / Gay artists etc. category. I have never seen a public reference to Coupland as gay, nor does the article Douglas Coupland make any reference to his sexual orientation. I am not particularly disputing whether Coupland is gay or queer, just failing to understand what is the standard for including someone in this category. —Preceding unsigned comment added by VanArtGuy (talk • contribs) 17:36, 24 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Consider the sentence from the article, "Coupland currently lives in West Vancouver, British Columbia with his partner David Weir."
 * It refers to a sentence from a New York Times article, "Meanwhile, Mr. Coupland still lives in his longtime residence next door, with his partner, David Weir."
 * Is this sufficient reference to characterize Coupland as gay?--Kevinkor2 (talk) 04:53, 26 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, it is OK, though I might have preferred something more explicit, like the Advocate interview of February 2005. As a Vancouverite, I am pretty well saturated in Coupland media material, and it nevers mentions his sexual orientation; he apparently prefers it that way. Then, when skimming the article (because saturated) I missed the concept of "partner" (because it is a little ambiguous). But he certainly has confirmed his orientation publicly, though in such a low-key way.--VanArtGuy —Preceding undated comment added 07:23, 27 July 2010 (UTC).

Anyone got access to Attitude?
Hullo all, bit of a kerfuffle at the Tom Hardy article about an alleged interview he gave in Attitude in which revelations about his sexuality were allegedly divulged. It was apparently published in the December 2008 issue, around the time of the release of RockNRolla, but we haven't been able to verify this; might any of you have a copy you could check? Ta,  Skomorokh   23:49, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Tobit2
There are many problems with Tobit2 vandalism. Please editors see the issue and comment on relevant talk pages. He do a damage to long and hardly developed version of articles about LGBT parenting and adoption. Thank you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Tobit2 --Destinero (talk) 18:08, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
 * 6 of 1 & half-a-dozen of the other. I gave up editing articles you were involved with because of your approach, and IMHO you have done a disservice to the 'cause' you seek to promote.  So, you made your bed, you can lie in it, mate. Do not expect support from me now somebody less sympathetic has called you out on your self-centered approach to certain articles. -  Mish Mich  -  Talk  - 21:19, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Gaps in article
Hello,

Marriage privatization has an interesting discussion in it, but it unfortunately does not currently seem to include any gay perspectives. In particular, it might seem that it is an important social goal to apply the name "marriage" and privatization denies that. I'd just like to attract attention to that article in hopes that someone might add more things like this.

Best Regards, Sugar-Baby-Love (talk) 00:27, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Arrest of Bradley Manning
Currently, there seems to be an organized effort to remove any mention of Bradley Manning's sexuality here. Manning is gay, as confirmed in multiple reliable sources. His disaffection with the military due to the DADT policy is evident from the New York Times story published yesterday. This is a notable factor in the story. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 14:51, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Help
Please help to finish - Pink Triangle Park, Gay and Lesbian Memorial Isaac Epstein (talk) 18:38, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Bruce and Pepper Wayne Gacy's Home Movies
A user dropped by my talk page to mention that Bruce and Pepper Wayne Gacy's Home Movies is up at AfD. I don't see in the article that the movie is particularly LGBT-related, though the fact that it's a Bruce LaBruce film, I have no doubt that it's at least somewhat related. Just an FYI. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 21:12, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

New template: Crossdressing
Please visit and contribute to Template:Crossdressing, newly created. Thank you. Riverstones (talk) 23:51, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Is there a reason that it is a sidebar compared to say a navbox? Peachey88 (T · &#32; C) 04:08, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, navboxes appear at the very bottom of the page, making them less obvious (and possibly less accessible to users who do not realize how they work). The sidebar as it is, now, is fairly small and narrow, making it relatively unobtrusive, while still useful. Riverstones (talk) 16:00, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Request assistance on Norbert Basil MacLean III article
I am not a member of your WikiProject but I request assistance in the Norbert Basil MacLean III as an editor who is also not in your WikiProject has nearly eraticated all references to the BLP's homosexuality. This is of major concern because if you read a 2003 Navy Times article it states:


 * "In a 1994 Navy Times story, MacLean said he felt he was the victim of a conspiracy because officials learned he was a homosexual. MacLean ended up filing an Article 138 complaint against Cosgriff in February 1992, citing harassment - a complaint his lawyers say belatedly was found to - have merit."

The 2003 Navy article can be found at: http://www.navytimes.com/legacy/new/0-NAVYPAPER-2153773.php  Not only does the Navy Times mention MacLean's homosexuality in both 1994 and 2003 articles but also the Washington Post does in articles in 1994.

Editing out the BLP's homosexuality in the Wikipedia article is concerning and I wanted to refer the matter to this WikiProject for its review and input.

This same editor also put the article in for a re-assessment from its year long GA-status, then made lots of edits, then re-assessed it on his own after making the edits from a GA to B status, also on his own re-assessed its important status from high to mid and then eventually to low and has now called for it to be rated a C status article. This editor specifically changed this WikiProject's evaluation of it and I don't believe he is a member of your project.

Any help or assistance in reviewing and editing the Norbert Basil MacLean III article from this WikiProject would be most appreciated. (Mattwashdc (talk) 23:29, 23 August 2010 (UTC))
 * I am the editor to whom Mattwashdc refers. The question of BLP's sexuality is a red-herring.  The BLP article, which is largely the product of Mattwashdc, mentioned sexual orientation, but his sexuality has had nothing to do with the notability of the BLP.  (Rather, the BLP has been advocating certain changes in the law regarding access of US military members to appeal their cases to the US Supreme Court.) Moreover, BLP himself said he did NOT feel his sexual orientation was a factor when he plead guilty to a court-martial charge of passing bad checks.  Please refer to Talk:Norbert Basil MacLean III for a full discussion of the sexual orientation and other issues.  As for who added the BLP article for LGBT discussion, please see the Talk:Norbert Basil MacLean III contrib by "Connorkeough (talk | contribs) at 02:38, 27 April 2008".  From outward appearance, it looks like BLP himself put his own article into the LGBT WikiProject listing.  (Was Connorkeough a member of the LGBT studies group at this time?)  My main point is this:  BLP may be gay, and he may have served in the military.  But these facts alone do not make his sexual orientation worthy of Wikipedia notice.  I, too, look forward to your comments.  Thank you.--S. Rich (talk) 16:06, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

List of LGBT politicians from the United Kingdom
List of LGBT politicians from the United Kingdom Hi, this article was mentioned in a thread at BLPN as having content in need of additional citations. The thread at the BLPN is here thanks Off2riorob (talk) 23:48, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

MCC clergy pages are being deleted
Several of the people listed at Metropolitan Community Church have recently had their pages deleted for lack of notability. Is there anyone here who can help bolster the remaining pages so that we don't lose more? Thanks, Aristophanes68 (talk) 06:21, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
 * We just lost another clergy page. :-( Aristophanes68 (talk) 22:52, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
 * And another one. Help!!!! Aristophanes68 (talk) 18:03, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Help needed on Paul Gerhard Vogel
Hi, can anyone improve the article Paul Gerhard Vogel, about a German man who was imprisoned by the Nazis for homosexuality? It has just been PRODed. Exploding Boy (talk) 05:50, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

New article list
What happened to the auto-generated new articles list? That was quite useful. Are You The Cow Of Pain? (talk) 22:25, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
 * It's back... It actually never went anywhere, but I didn't realize anyone still used it and tried removing the transclusion to cut down on the WT:LGBT header size (since the to-do list already included a link to it). If the transclusion is being used though, then that is great, that is why it was originally put there. :-D ... Another easy way to keep up with it is to watchlist User:AlexNewArtBot/LGBTSearchResult, so the bot's updates will show up in your watchlist. Wikignome0530 (talk) 04:42, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Matthew Shepard article proposed move
there's have been a proposal to posted to rename the article on Matthew Shepard to Death of Matthew Shepard or Murder of Matthew Shepard. those interested in this topic should make their concerns known here. --emerson7 05:15, 30 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the tip, I posted four policy reasons against the change. Textorus (talk) 08:19, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Deletion proposed for National Center for Lesbian Rights?
It appears from the article and its history page that someone wants to delete National Center for Lesbian Rights, which has been instrumental in the marriage fight in California, among other LGBT lawsuits around the nation. Does anybody want to beef up this article so it doesn't get trashed? Textorus (talk) 08:42, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Truetalk
Looks like another new editor,, is trying to assert their POV on a wide range of articles. 69.181.249.92 (talk) 20:01, 26 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, I've been watching their contributions with some interest. Exploding Boy (talk) 20:08, 26 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Anybody who uses NARTH as a serious source bears watching. 69.181.249.92 (talk) 20:11, 26 August 2010 (UTC)


 * That account has now been blocked as a sock puppet of . If anyone sees similar edits from a new account please let me know.   Will Beback    talk    07:55, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

LGBT parenting
Could you please contribute with your opinion to this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Talk:LGBT_parenting/FAQ Thank you! --Destinero (talk) 16:04, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Collaboration of WikiProject LGBT Studies Writers and OutHistory.org?
FROM: Jonathan Ned Katz, OutHistory.org Co-Director

As the founder of the Mediawiki-based OutHistory.org, the free, educational website on LGBT history (U.S. focused for now), I wonder if any of the LGBT Wikipedia editors/writers would like to add their historical Wikipedia entries to OutHistory.org? This would ensure this history even wider distribution.

For example, I would love to include the entry on Henry Gerber and the Society for Human Rights on OutHistory.org, but I don't have the labor power to process this republication, with full credit, of course.

If you would like to contact me, please email me at jnk123@mac.com

Thanks so much. Jonathan(Jnkatz1 (talk) 17:15, 4 September 2010 (UTC))

Main Page proposal
As related to Wikipedia Signpost/2010-09-06/News and notes, subsection: "Main page biases?" Thank you for your time, -- Cirt (talk) 22:04, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Please see Wikipedia_talk:Today's_featured_article/requests.

Duplicate category?
To me Category:Gay politicians from the United Kingdom seems to be a duplicate of Category:LGBT politicians from the United Kingdom. Is there any need for a duplicate? I can't see any other ones in Category:LGBT politicians by country. I thought I should ask here before going to Cats for deletion to see if there was any precedence. I only noticed because of the Crispin Blunt story today. Thanks, regards. Woody (talk) 16:24, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I see no point to have both, we should just keep the later. C T J F 8 3  chat 17:34, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The point to having both is that one is a subcategory of the other. That's why we have both Category:English Methodists and Category:British Methodists, even though English Methodists are British Methodists. It's helpful to know whether the politician in question is L, G, B, or T. I've seen articles of people with only the "LGBT" category and it leaves a big question mark in my mind. (Yes, the substantiation as to the subgroup should appear in the text of the article, but often it does not because of sensitivities about whether or not it is appropriate to mention) Quigley (talk) 21:12, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Given that there are only nine articles listed in Category:LGBT politicians from the United Kindgom that *wouldn't* fall in the "Gay politicians" category, I suggest we upmerge the latter into the former. While I agree with Quigley that subcatting can be useful, it also needs to be merited - see WP:CAT.  Unless there are enough articles to need diffusion, the articles themselves will need to be clear on whether the person is L, G, B, or T.  My opinion, any way. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 02:45, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Mário de Andrade FAR
nominated Mário de Andrade for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. JJ98 (Talk) 07:19, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Category:LGBT flags CFD
Hello, this notice is being posted to notify this WikiProject of a related category. is currently nominated for merging into and  at WP:CFD. If you would like to take part of the discussion, feel free to drop a comment here. Thank you. — ξ xplicit  07:50, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

1.8.7
Hello people, an editor notified on the talk page that this subject is a transgender person who was a man and now is a woman (since 1998). Add it to your watchlists and please add information! Worromp Warg (talk) 20:59, 13 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The sourcing in that article is shocking. Needs clean-up work and bettering sourcing or it's off to AFD. --Cameron Scott (talk) 21:02, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

User:Quaranj made a mistake and deleted some parts regarding her past life but the proof is all here: http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/Jordana.html SackettRachel (talk) 21:18, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

This conflict doesn't seem to be ending anytime soon, so I was wondering if this has come up before in other articles. 1.8.7 is the stage/band name of Jordana LaSesne, formerly Joe laSesne. This is sourced to SPIN and Philadelphia citypaper, but an editor claiming to edit on behalf of Ms. LaSense says that she does not want this information to be public in this manner. Is this the sort of thing that can be pulled back per BLP concerns if the subject wishes to, or is the cat already out of the bag? Tarc (talk) 17:30, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

User:Fences and windows pulled together this list of third party reliable sources  about the music industry (village voice, spin, rolling stone etc) and per WP:UNDUE we cover what the reliable sources cover about the subject of the article, and they heavily cover the fact of the gender transition. When claims and content are so public, the desire of the subject (let alone someone claiming to represent the subject) to remove them from the article really plays of little importance when the content meets the general guidelines of WP:V / WP:NPOV / WP:RS. Biographies_of_living_persons/Help. Active Banana   ( bananaphone  18:00, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Any other thoughts on this as attempts to remove are persisting. --Cameron Scott (talk) 17:45, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * The SPIN article alone is reference enough to keep not only her transgender status, but also her previous name. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 21:34, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Relevant AFD discussion page - The Most Hated Family in America
There is an AFD for The Most Hated Family in America, which is a television documentary film that was written and presented by the BBC's Louis Theroux about the family at the core of the Westboro Baptist Church (info from lede of article). Thank you for your time, -- Cirt (talk) 05:38, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
 * AFD is located at: Articles for deletion/The Most Hated Family in America.

"Sexual orientation" vs. "LGBT policy" in military articles
I'd like to open a discussion to generate consensus over a naming convention for articles about the way the militaries of various countries treat LGBT personnel. There seem to be two options in use. 1) "Sexual orientation and..." as in Sexual orientation and military service and Sexual orientation and the United States military (which I moved first from "LGBT policy in the U.S. military" to "LGBT policy in the United States military" to expand the abbreviation, then to its current name to match Category:Sexual orientation and the United States military). 2) "LGBT policy and..." as in LGBT policy in the Canadian military and LGBT policy in the Military of the Netherlands.

I favor "Sexual orientation and..." because it's broader in scope. There was no formal policy, for instance, in the US military until relatively recently but there's a history there dating back literally to the American Revolution. A strict policy focus would exclude that information whereas the broader scope allows for its inclusion and discussion of the various policies in the article and sub-articles. I also generally believe that it's best to avoid initialisms in article titles because not everyone knows what they mean. Are You The Cow Of Pain? (talk) 00:34, 17 August 2010 (UTC)


 * From looking at our category structure, I think this WikiProject has gone with this difference: LGBT (in categories and pages) is an adjective - Category:LGBT organizations, Category:LGBT issues and religion, etc. When dealing with LGBT culture as it relates to a topic, we seem to have gone with "Sexual orientation and..." - Category:Sexual orientation and medicine, Category:Sexual orientation and science, etc.


 * That logic would argue that you're correct in what you said above - Sexual orientation and military service, etc. We do have some exceptions - Category:LGBT and the economy and the Category:Homosexuality and religion tree - but in the main, that's the way we've gone. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 02:37, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I think we should use "sexual orientation" when we're talking about sexual orientation itself or only LGB people, and "LGBT" when we're talking about trans people too. In this case, the US article is only about sexual orientation, and the general article has one sentence about trans people.  --Alynna (talk) 03:20, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Autoandrophilia
I have just expanded the autoandrophilia namespace into a short article. Autoandrophilia was previously redirecting to autogynephilia. The autoandrophilia article is very short; anyone who can assist with expanding and improving it, please do. Riverstones (talk) 13:26, 20 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Autogynephilia redirects to Blanchard, Bailey, and Lawrence theory, which has some context on the controversy around that concept. If there is similar controversy around the concept of "autoandrophilia", it should be covered in that article. --Alynna (talk) 03:27, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

In the news - suggestion
Please see In_the_news/Candidates. -- Cirt (talk) 21:39, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Witt v. Department of the Air Force

WikiProject tag removed from talk page of Tom Cruise
Please see, a WikiProject tag was removed Talk:Tom Cruise. Thoughts? -- Cirt (talk) 02:47, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Talk:Tom Cruise
 * Reverted. Unregistered (or newly registered) user, dubious reason for removal ("slander"). And, hey, if there's a South Park episode about it, it must be notable :) -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 03:27, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed. -- Cirt (talk) 03:28, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
 * ??? According to the Wikipedia article about Trapped in the Closet (South Park), the main purpose of the episode is to make fun of Scientology, not allegations against Tom Cruise that he is gay.
 * How serious does an allegation need to be for an article to become part of this project?
 * --Kevinkor2 (talk) 21:27, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not the allegation that puts Cruise's article "within the scope of" the WikiProject. It's the fact that the article has a full section dealing with his sexual orientation - or rather, litigation related to news sources who talked about his sexual orientation. See Anderson Cooper and Jodie Foster for other examples.  There's no hard-and-fast rule, but generally, if the WikiProject members are involved in the article to a significant degree, the project tag is okay. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 03:28, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

LGBT and black churches
Hi! I found: If anyone needs a source for articles about African-American churches and homosexuality... WhisperToMe (talk) 06:11, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Lee, Shayne. "Why black church culture rejects homosexuality." CNN. September 26, 2010.

Dusty Springfield GA Review
A GA Review of the Dusty Springfield article for which this project has a talkpage tag has started and is on hold to allow improvements to be made. Please go to Talk:Dusty Springfield/GA1 to see fuller comments. Regards  SilkTork  *YES! 21:28, 14 July 2010 (UTC)


 * The Dusty Springfield article has not met GA criteria and has been failed. I really wanted to take this all the way to GA status, but it is taking too long, and I have to move on now. There are still sourcing issues to be dealt with, and coverage of Springfield's life and career needs more attention.  SilkTork  *YES! 13:50, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Tyler Clementi
I've started an article on Tyler Clementi. It is just a stub now and needs a lot of work, esp. as more news breaks. Please help! Kingturtle (talk) 11:08, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

When gay-bashers attack straight victims
This isn't about an article per se (although it might be useful for the article on gay-bashing), but I'm wondering if any groups keep statistics on how often gay-bashings are committed against straight victims. Where might I find this information? Thanks, Aristophanes68 (talk) 21:12, 11 September 2010 (UTC)


 * The article Violence against LGBT people says "In the United States, the FBI reported that 15.6% of hate crimes reported to police in 2004 were founded on perceived sexual orientation. Sixty-one percent of those attacks were against gay men, 14% against lesbians, 2% against heterosexuals and 1% against bisexuals, while attacks against LGBT people at large made up 20%." --Alynna (talk) 23:39, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Male prostitution
I was reading the page in Wikipedia on male prostitution and I just wanted to add some information. Regarding the history of male-to-male prostitution, in the 18th to the early 19th century there were special Houses of prostitution that were for the benefit of men who wanted to have sex with other men. These Houses were popularly known as "Molly Houses," and the male sex workers were referred to as "Mollys." This is not mentioned in the article, but if anybody is interested, they can read about it in a book entitled "Mother Clap's molly house: the gay subculture in England 1700-1830, author Rictor Norton.Elephant&#39;s child (talk) 02:15, 30 September 2010 (UTC)


 * It looks like there's an article on Molly houses. The topic is not yet mentioned in Male prostitution yet, though.  --Alynna (talk) 23:41, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Categories for discussion nomination of Category:LGBT
Category:LGBT, which is under the purview of this WikiProject, has been nominated for discussion. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you.. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:00, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Sissy (transgender)
This page mashes up a number of issues, which have their own articles:
 * sissy as a pejorative
 * feminization (activity), which is usually done in a BDSM setting, and coupled with erotic humiliation, so the pejorative sissy is used

It also expands the word sissy as non-pejorative in the transgender community at large, which I'm not sure is correct (the main transgender article doesn't use it, except in a template pointing to this very page), so I decided to ask here. The references in the article are a BDSM feminization page and a gay/genderqueer essay from a guy who openly declares himself sissy, but those are exactly the two topics that we already have articles about. Tijfo098 (talk) 12:39, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

signatures...
I've added an = to the end of my signature in remembrance of the recent tragedies experienced by LGBTQ youth and the struggles faced by LGBTQ people everywhere, and to let those I interact with on Wikipedia that support LGBT issues and I am an ally. Maybe you might do the same. Kingturtle = (talk) 20:06, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

2010 Wikimedia Study of Controversial Content
All 3 parts of the 2010 Wikimedia Study of Controversial Content are now available. Please read and contribute to the discussion on the talk pages. --Simon Speed (talk) 22:41, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Joel Burns
I've started a somewhat stubby article on Joel Burns, the Fort Worth city councillor who rocketed to fame earlier this week with his It Gets Better speech. The thing I'm concerned about at this point, however, is that it might run the risk of being seen by some people as a WP:BLP1E — so I was wondering if anybody (especially people in the DFW area) would be willing to help dig out some of the past news coverage that already existed of his role on city council before this week.

For example, I've found a news article that quotes him speaking about a proposed new streetcar system in Fort Worth — although it doesn't offer enough background on the matter to be a useful reference by itself, it does point in the direction of some stuff that could be added to the article to make it more substantial. Any willing assistants? Bearcat (talk) 23:22, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Juchitán_de_Zaragoza
In the german wikipedia i read there is traditionally a large part of the population that considers themselves as a third gender (Muxe's und Marimachas) but i can not find anything about it in the english article. so if anyone could look for some sources and add it to the article ... Elvis untot (talk) 15:40, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Category:Years in LGBT history
Currently this category structure doesn't exist. Instead Category:Years in LGBT rights exists. I would suggest that either the name of the existing hierarchy be changed to encompass events not so closely linked to the struggle for equal rights, or that the existing structure is kept but that the history structure is created in addition as a parent structure to it. I'm not sure the volume of non-rights events-related articles is sufficient to warrant both structures though. Inputs please! __meco (talk) 07:23, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
 * It exists already under Category:LGBT history by century. Sapphire Steel (talk) 17:25, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh.. OK! __meco (talk) 22:47, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Help please, arbitration
Comments on dos Manzanas as a source.

Greetings community.

Apologies if this is the incorrect forums. However, I've gotten into a conflict with another editor at the merits of dos Manzanas as a reliable site for citing the alleged homosexuality for Paul of Greece with a Denham Fouts. Your input on |Prince Paul of Yugoslavia (in which we appearently are discussing Paul of Greece and Denham Fouts) would be greatly appreciated. Even if not in my favor. Thank you! ♦Drachenfyre♦ · Talk 10:42, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Antonio (Merchant of Venice)
If anyone knows anything about this, can someone have a look at Antonio (Merchant of Venice), and in particular this section? I don't want to blank the section, if this really is an important area of LGBT studies, but as it stands this is frankly gibberish. – iridescent  18:46, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

New category = Category:Don't ask, don't tell
Created this category. So far, have added 16 pages. Feel free to please populate with more. Thank you! ;) Cheers, -- Cirt (talk) 23:12, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Category:Don't ask, don't tell

Greek love - delete and disambiguate?
Discussion here for those interested. Thanks.McZeus (talk) 23:26, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

2010 in LGBT rights
User:Lihaas, who based on hir edit history has no particular interest or expertise in LGBT issues has asserted serious ownership over this article, to the point of waging a three-month edit war. In hir insistence that hir way be the only way, s/he has completely broken with the format developed by consensus over nearly four dozen similar articles and has mass-deleted entire months from the year. My history with the article is...complicated...so I hope some of you will review it and the changes s/he is trying to unilaterally impose and try to keep the valid, reliably sourced information s/he keeps removing in the article, under the correct dates and in line with the present-tense formatting of all of the other articles. Thanks. Eddie Tenley (talk) 00:16, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
 * This comment is a sock of blocked user User:Derek_Tenley who is a sock of User:Otto4711 - Off2riorob (talk) 00:22, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
 * In any case, I have been involved with Lihaas on other occasions and I strongly suggest that this be followed-up. This user has some strange notions on what is appropriate editing practices. __meco (talk) 09:14, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, the account has been blocked now, so you are free to delete the comment if you so desire, thanks. Off2riorob (talk) 12:44, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

LGBT articles have been selected for the Wikipedia 0.8 release
Version 0.8 is a collection of Wikipedia articles selected by the Wikipedia 1.0 team for offline release on USB key, DVD and mobile phone. Articles were selected based on their assessed importance and quality, then article versions (revisionIDs) were chosen for trustworthiness (freedom from vandalism) using an adaptation of the WikiTrust algorithm.

We would like to ask you to review the LGBT articles and revisionIDs we have chosen. Selected articles are marked with a diamond symbol (&diams;) to the right of each article, and this symbol links to the selected version of each article. If you believe we have included or excluded articles inappropriately, please contact us at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.8 with the details. You may wish to look at your WikiProject's articles with cleanup tags and try to improve any that need work; if you do, please give us the new revisionID at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.8. We would like to complete this consultation period by midnight UTC on Sunday, November 14th.

We have greatly streamlined the process since the Version 0.7 release, so we aim to have the collection ready for distribution by the end of November, 2010. As a result, we are planning to distribute the collection much more widely, while continuing to work with groups such as One Laptop per Child and Wikipedia for Schools to extend the reach of Wikipedia worldwide. Please help us, with your WikiProject's feedback!

If you have already provided feedback, we deeply appreciate it. For the Wikipedia 1.0 editorial team, SelectionBot 16:34, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Source about bullying of LGBT
Hi! I found: WhisperToMe (talk) 12:46, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
 * George, Cindy. "Professor tries to get to the root of bullying." Houston Chronicle. November 6, 2010.

WikiProject cleanup listing
I have created together with Smallman12q a toolserver tool that shows a weekly-updated list of cleanup categories for WikiProjects, that can be used as a replacement for WolterBot and this WikiProject is among those that are already included (because it is a member of Category:WolterBot cleanup listing subscriptions). See the tool's wiki page, this project's listing in one big table or by categories and the index of WikiProjects. Svick (talk) 20:47, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

List of Lesbian Literature (now renamed as "List of books portraying sexual relations between women")
Could someone take a look at this page? It was listed as of interest to this project, B class. Recent overhaul and renaming seem to have muddled and minimized rather than improved it, but I'm not sure what the best way is to proceed Voila-pourquoi (talk) 08:54, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

AfD for GL
I have now nominated Greek love for deletion. I have no idea exactly when it will pop out of the admin workshop, piping hot and ready for voting. Soon I expect. McZeus (talk) 05:06, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Mark Tobey
In an interview for Archives of American Art, Smithsonian Institution Jan Thompson says Mark Tobey was homosexual or bisexual. Any other sources that would also be acceptable to Wikipedia as reference(s) for Mark Tobey article? --EarthFurst (talk) 10:54, 14 November 2010 (UTC)


 * (An easy way to find the relevant comments in the interview is to search for the word, bisexual.)
 * I suggest that a transcript of an interview is a poor source:
 * Jan Thompson is not a biographer of Mark Tobey. Possibly not even a personal friend of Mark Tobey. "But, you know, I was around Morris and Mark Tobey at times, and I never heard them talk about anything."
 * Jan Thompson does not say "Mark Tobey was homosexual or bisexual" directly, but instead agrees with statements Sue Ann Kendall makes.
 * There is no indication that the transcript was reviewed by Jan Thompson for accuracy.
 * The interview does have a couple places to start looking for more info:
 * Jan Thompson mentioned Mark Tobey's will. Would there be news articles that comment on his will?
 * The interview transcript starts with the WPA art center in Spokane. I suggest this was the Spokane Art Center that was started as part of the Works Progress Administration. If so, maybe the typescript, "The Spokane Art Center-Notes on its History," by Jane Baldwin, mentioned in Spokane Art Center records, would have more information.
 * --Kevinkor2 (talk) 14:48, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

New article: List of LGBT British Politicians
While this is a fascinating read I can't see it lasting very long if some strong references aren't added to it in the immediate future. The creator has also missed off one or two glaring omissions, such as Chris Smith, Baron Smith of Finsbury and Michael Cashman. Anyone fancy the job of rescuing this article from the duldrums? --  role player 16:11, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Lists are always problems and pretty much unread also. Actually if I remember correctly it was deleted earlier this year a AFD, any one remember? Off2riorob (talk) 16:12, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, so it was. Oh well, pity really, but you have to go by consensus on these things... --  role player 16:20, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I have tagged it for speedy deletion under WP:CSD --  role player 16:25, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, well found. Off2riorob (talk) 16:36, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

GetEQUAL
This article was recently created; I just found it and tagged it for the project. Considering that the group is very active (and controversial) right now, it might help if a few people add it to their Watchlists. The Wordsmith Communicate 07:53, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Homosexuals Anonymous
Homosexuals Anonymous is a new article about a 14 step program which I think falls into the category of conversion therapy. The article contains essentially no information on the scientific / medical views of attempts to alter an individual's sexual orientation / identity, and I consider it unbalanced and (at present) unencyclopedic. It has recently been nominated to appear on the main page under the DYK project - nomination here. I am posting here to invite comment on the article or the nomination, or editing contributions. I intend to post a similar notice at the Psychology WikiProject and the Religion WikiProject, and am willing to notify any other projects that might have contributions to make. I don't mean to violate WP:CANVASS and I would welcome any contributions from any editor, irrespective of whether their views on the article or the nomination are in agreement with mine or not. EdChem (talk) 13:11, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Greek love at AfD
It would be interesting to hear from those more knowledgeable in the linguistic matters surrounding this issue. Tijfo098 (talk) 14:11, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Charlie Crist again
Discussion is underway at Talk:Charlie Crist and Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard about whether any mention of Outrage (2009 film) should be in the article, specifically, the film's allegations of hypocrisy, that Crist is a closeted gay politician who voted against gay rights. Also discussed is whether Bob Norman's October 2006 news article outing Crist or Max Linn's radio interview from the same period, one in which he said Crist was bisexual, are suitable for the article. This has been discussed before with inconclusive results. This looks to be the time when a decision can be determined. Binksternet (talk) 16:49, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Wu Youjian
Here is a CNN article about Wu Youjian, known in China for her LGBT advocacy after her son revealed his orientation to her: WhisperToMe (talk) 05:52, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Jiang, Steven. "'Mama Wu' unlikely hero for homosexuals in China." CNN. November 16, 2010.


 * Now is a good time as ever to make a true LGBT rights in the People's Republic of China article, not one that weirdly redirects to Homosexuality in China, which is heavy on the historical, as it does now. Quigley (talk) 06:21, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Speaking of stuff, I moved LGBT rights in Taiwan to LGBT rights in the Republic of China because the Republic of China government covers territory outside of Taiwan (Pescadores, Kinmen, and Matsu) - I support the creation of LGBT rights in the People's Republic of China WhisperToMe (talk) 18:16, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Nomination of Singapore public gay parties for deletion
A discussion has begun about whether the article Singapore public gay parties, which you created or to which you contributed, should be deleted. While contributions are welcome, an article may be deleted if it is inconsistent with Wikipedia policies and guidelines for inclusion, explained in the deletion policy.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Singapore public gay parties (3rd nomination) until a consensus is reached, and you are welcome to contribute to the discussion.

You may edit the article during the discussion, including to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article.Andy Dingley (talk) 12:55, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Gay bar comments
Input is requested here C T J F 8 3  chat 02:00, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Cartoon sexuality sources
There's a discussion at Reliable sources/Noticeboard regarding sources on the sexuality of cartoon characters that may be of interest. Siawase (talk) 23:22, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Bible sections in Same sex marriage
Its getting ridiculous.  Phoenix of9  01:36, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Discussion of interest at WT:BLP
There is an ongoing policy discussion that may interest members of this project at WT:BLP. Lady of  Shalott  02:43, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of John Gordon Home


The article John Gordon Home has been proposed for deletion&#32; because of the following concern:
 * A search for references found no published work (gBooks) supporting this residences as a Hospice. though web entries do suggest it is. Fails WP:N

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 15:57, 17 November 2010 (UTC)


 * The prod tag has been removed from the article. It now has references from The Sudbury Star and London Free Press to establish its notability.--Kevinkor2 (talk) 22:07, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

dudesnude
hey guys let me get some help finding more sources for dudesnude so that we can save it!Hemanetwork (talk) 12:40, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Doing the Math
I added the following information to Talk:Hate crime:
 * I found the following article from Southern Poverty Law Center to be interesting:
 * &lt;ref&gt;&lt;/ref&gt;
 * It gives total victimization of target groups in the U.S. population for 1995-2008.
 * Here are its results in table format:


 * --Kevinkor2 (talk) 15:06, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Tatiana C. Gfoeller - new page for US diplomat somewhat involved in LGBT rights
While I was checking this new article I found a few links to her involvement in LGBT rights. The article needs lots of work. Richiez (talk) 23:33, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Richard Wilson of interest to you?
Why exactly? Fine, I personally believe he is gay, considering the evidence, but why is it listed on his talk page that he is of interest to this group? It might be because of his work for "gay causes" like stonewall, but there's nothing mentioned in the talk page to actually say WHY he is listed as of interest...perhaps someone should pop over there and add a note? Preferably someone involved in the decision to add him? Or perhaps someone should remove him from the list? Either way, I think this post should be replied to before any action is taken so other people know something is being done :-) 87.194.86.204 (talk) 21:07, 3 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Which Richard Wilson? There are quite a few. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 21:25, 3 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I assume that Richard_Wilson_(Scottish_actor) was meant - there's an LGBT banner on his Talk page. --GuillaumeTell 00:10, 4 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah, he's one of these figures who almost certainly is gay, and is certainly not opposed to homosexuality (so not a closet case), but who simply talks so little about his sexuality and romantic life that it's hard to find a good citation for Wikipedia. This source claims that he is gay, but I'm not sure it's really quite strong enough support on its own for inclusion in Wikipedia.  garik (talk) 09:33, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

The tag was added by an IP without explanation. Speculation aside, I don't think there's any basis for it being there and have removed it. WJBscribe (talk) 01:09, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Many thanks...I felt it needed to be removed but thought it best to leave it to someone of the relevant group to check in case it was treading on anyone's toes. He is indeed very likely to be gay, but unless there's something in his own words that has been published and is verifiable, it isn't a wikipedia fact...and we don't have a "possibly gay" or "probably gay" tag :-) 87.194.86.204 (talk) 14:35, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Absolutely&mdash;precisely my point. He probably is gay, but until we get a really good citation (preferably from him), then we have no business putting the info up here. garik (talk) 17:18, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

William P. Fitzpatrick
This politician stub needs help and more content. Frank Marco (talk) 15:14, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

David Berger (theologian)·
Greetings community,

i need help by speeddeleted article of german author and theologian David Berger. User:Lectonar speeddeleted this good and relevant article.

David Berger lives open homosexual and now in 2010 he wrote a new book "Heiliger Schein", in which Berger writes 20-40 percentage of catholic clergy is homosexual. Frank Marco (talk) 13:35, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Did this "good and relevant" article contain usable sources to prove his homosexuality and the openness of it? If not, I am sure it was deleted for legal reasons as it would be libellous, although I would have thought editing it would have been the proper way forward. 87.194.86.204 (talk) 21:10, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

now for the second time user:Lectonar speeddeleted this article of German theologian and author David Berger. 92.252.89.233 (talk) 16:17, 6 December 2010 (UTC) David Berger lives open homosexual with his friend in Cologne, Germany. References were already in article.
 * Frankfurter Rundschau: Homosexualität in der Kirche (german)
 * Spiegel:Großer Teil der katholischen Kleriker ist homosexuell (german)
 * de:David Berger (Theologe)

92.252.89.233 (talk) 21:52, 6 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi everyone,
 * I have asked at WP:REFUND for a copy of the article in my user: space.
 * It is now at User:Kevinkor2/David Berger (theologian).
 * One thing that I've noticed right away is that it has a lot less references that establish notability than its equivalent in German Wikipedia: David Berger (Theologe).
 * I invite anyone to edit the article, especially those who can read German and copy information from there to here!
 * --Kevinkor2 (talk) 18:49, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Fringe theory noticeboard on homosexuality in cartoons
For those of you who are interested, please see Fringe_theories/Noticeboard WhisperToMe (talk) 02:00, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

LGBT musical groups category

 * There was talk here about inclusion criteria for this category back in 2007, but the discussion became stale as soon as it started. I personally think only groups where most (or all) of its members identify as LGBT should be included in the category. Thoughts? Erpert (let's talk about it) 07:04, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
 * That category desperately needs definition, IMO. I would probably argue that it's not enough to have most (or even all) the members of a musical group be LGBT, but that their music should likewise reflect LGBT themes.  Erasure would qualify, Hüsker Dü probably not. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 00:21, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * For example, someone included Vampire Weekend simply because the lead guitarist is gay. Erpert (let's talk about it) 07:00, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's strictly necessary that the music literally reflect LGBT themes — Tegan and Sara, for example, don't really write "explicitly lesbian songs" (and hell, even the Indigo Girls do so far less than you might think), yet their lesbianism is still relevant to the overall context of their music. But there definitely needs to be some relevance to the grouping beyond the fact that one member of the band happens to be gay. Vampire Weekend? Really? Bearcat (talk) 12:00, 18 December 2010 (UTC)


 * By the way, the same thing happens in the contemporary Christian music industry. See Christian music industry and look for the distinction between "Christian band" and "Christians in a band".--Kevinkor2 (talk) 16:12, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Template talk:Same-sex unions
At Template talk:Same-sex unions a discussion was started on removal of the word 'same-sex' in 'same-sex marriage' to make it consistent with other existing headings of the same hierarchical level: ('Civil unions and registered partnerships') and ('Unregistered co-habitation'). Feel free to join in, so a meaningful consensus can be established... Rgds! L.tak (talk) 11:52, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Categories for discussion nomination of Category:LGBT law enforcement workers
Category:LGBT law enforcement workers, which is under the purview of this WikiProject, has been nominated for deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:15, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

ngrams.googlelabs.com
Google's new toy, ngrams.googlelabs.com, is cool. Check out the use of transgender vs. transsexual over time. You can manipulate the dates to see that transgender took off beginning in 1960 and that there was some buzz around transsexual 1948-1958. Here's one for lesbian. -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 01:57, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

LGBT and cartoons
Is there an article specifically dealing with this subject at the moment? There should be a place where there is information about the main thesis of the Jeffrey P. Dennis essay  - a peer reviewed academic publication. There's also a response to it from the Animation World Network that is critical of the Dennis thesis: Goodman, Martin. "Deconstruction Zone — Part 2." ''Animation World Network. Wednesday March 10, 2004. WhisperToMe (talk) 01:01, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
 * If no good article match exists, I could start a draft of Sex and sexuality in Cartoons citing his main thesis, and including whatever else I could find, and I could see what else could be added besides the Dennis stuff (Ren and Stimpy, Spongebob, etc) WhisperToMe (talk) 02:40, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the separate article sounds like a good idea, to accomodate material that would be undue in individual character articles, and also give context to it. Siawase (talk) 11:33, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Portland vice scandal
I'd like to notify this project that I just started an article on a 1912 scandal in Portland, Oregon, revolving around the city's contemporary gay subculture. There's a lot more to be said about the topic, so please expand to your heart's content! — Athelwulf [T]/[C] 10:14, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Relevant AFD: Santorum
Please see Articles for deletion/Santorum (sexual neologism). -- Cirt (talk) 13:15, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Template:WikiProject LGBT studies
Is there any reason this doesn't contain an importance rating like most other project banners do? C T J F 8 3 chat 22:12, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeh - we've discussed it before. See Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_LGBT_studies/Archive_5, Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_LGBT_studies/Archive_20, Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_LGBT_studies/Archive_34, etc. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 00:29, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, cool, thanks, C T J F 8 3  chat 20:12, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Spencer Day
Somebody might want to check out this article. Not sure if the article falls under this project but Spencer Day is an openly gay musician. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.111.254.17 (talk) 15:36, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

And apparently The Advocate is not considered a "reliable source". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.111.254.17 (talk) 15:41, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

...aaaand apparently citing interviews in which he discusses being gay is so "disparaging" or "threatening" that it merits blanking the discussion page for the article. Somebody remind me what century we're living in? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.111.254.17 (talk) 15:44, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Not only have the changes been reverted, but the discussion page, including the sources I cited, has been blanked and completely deleted as if it never existed. Looks like gay people are still destined to be made as invisible as possible, even in 2011. 160.111.254.17 (talk) 15:57, 3 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I had never seen this entry before. I've cleaned it up and expanded it a bit. And I've started a talk page in the usual way. I should have asked the admin who deleted the earlier version to comment here. I can't now because his identity has disappeared now that I've started a new version of the page. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 21:04, 3 January 2011 (UTC)


 * seems reasonable to start the talk page again. I already had requested the deleting admin for a reevaluation of his removal here, but he is not editing at the moment. L.tak (talk) 21:15, 3 January 2011 (UTC)


 * It's worth having a look at what happened when 160.111.254.17 raised this matter elsewhere:  Reliable_sources/Noticeboard. Includes the link to The Advocate's article, where Day is quite clear (at least to me!) that he is openly gay.  --GuillaumeTell 22:35, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

The admin has now restored the old version of the talk page and said that he made a mistake. My suggestion for the future is: don't say someone is gay and just provide links to sources. Quote the sources so your point is made as explicitly as possible.

No one contested the Advocate as a source in this instance. It was the abrupt assertion that Spencer Day is gay that appeared, when glanced at rather too quickly, like vandalism, i.e., name-calling.

The earlier discussion you reference included some real nitpicking. Day in interviaws doesn't say "I am gay" but he responds to questions about what it's like being out as an artist. The refs I've added now include his discussion of coming out to his family.

I expect that the fact that the issue was raised and material added by an anonymous user didn't help either. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 22:42, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Thank you all for the assistance, and especially Bmclaughlin9 for his/her vast improvements to the article. I raised the question about The Advocate as a reliable source after my changes were deleted and I was given a warning "Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, adding content without citing a reliable source, as you did with this edit to Spencer Day, is not consistent with our policy of verifiability." Upon re-inserting the information (along with the two references, which I had previously included), and making a comment on the discussion page asking that the other editors read those references, my edits were again deleted and I was given another warning, "Please do not add content without citing verifiable and reliable sources, as you did with this edit to Spencer Day. Before making any potentially controversial edits, it is recommended that you discuss them first on the article's talk page." It was after my edits, comments, and references were deleted, even from the talk page, that I pursued the matter. I understand that editing anonymously lends me less credibility, but at this time I do not choose to create a Wikipedia account as I do not intend to do any further editing. 160.111.254.17 (talk) 14:57, 4 January 2011 (UTC)


 * You added this sentence "The songs on the album are semi-autobiographical, and reflect his growing up as a young gay man" without a footnote. You say you added references, but what you did was add two links under "External links", which is quite different. The person who removed your sentence called the info "dubious unsourced" and said nothing about the quality of your sources, since s/he didn't even look at those external links. Listings under "External links" aren't part of the documentation, as I understand things. Using "ref" tags is the best way to document something that might otherwise be read as vandalism, dubious, or controversial. Not as good would be an entry under "Sources" following the "Notes". Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 17:38, 4 January 2011 (UTC)