Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Law/Archive 26

Article name query for controversial legal document
At Operation Gideon (2020) (which will be the subject of a separate Move request to resolve its name), see this discussion in archive about how to name a sub-article on the agreement signed between representatives of the then-government of Juan Guaidó and an outside contractor. The article is now approaching 10,000 words of readable prose, and this section of content is important to the history, but sources say the independent contractor moved on with his own plans months after the Guaidó administration backed away, so this content is getting a lot of weight in the article and is a candidate to split because of its size. Would the sub-article
 * a) meet notability,
 * b) be subject to AFD, as a
 * c) POV fork or otherwise, and
 * d) how should it be named ?

Thanks in advance for any advice, which might be offered at this section of the article talk page. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:35, 7 October 2023 (UTC)


 * voorts (talk/contributions) 21:29, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Public domain in 1948
I have just refreshed an old unanswered query at Talk:Shostakovich v. Twentieth Century-Fox Film Corp. - it seems that no editors watching that page are able to help, and the article is unreferenced. In short, it is apparently based on the some of the composer's music already being Public Domain in the US in 1948, when he was alive enough to bring the case. As it seems so counter-intuitive, the article needs some explanation on how that was true at that time. Davidships (talk) 21:29, 29 September 2023 (UTC)


 * I'll take a look. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:45, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Interesting case. Working on a rewrite of the article. I would encourage anyone with more knowledge than I on copyright and moral rights to contribute. This seems like an important case from my brief review of the literature. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:20, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Replied on the talk page. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 03:05, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
 * @Davidships & @Extraordinary Writ: I've completely rewritten the article and nominated it for GAN. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:29, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
 * That's great. I've been sitting back watching you legal eagles at work (without an hourly rate) and falling into the trap of following links, so read big chunks of this yesterday with inquisitive interest. Thank you. Davidships (talk) 18:34, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
 * voorts (talk/contributions) 21:30, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Article Constructive has been redirect-ified
I noticed today that Constructive has been turned into a redirect by an editor going around and scuttling articles they think are just dictionary definitions. I had to handle one in the equine topic area. This one is out of my league, but looks like legal folk ought to be able to tell if that redirect is appropriate or not. Just notifying the wikiproject since the article was neither PRODed nor AfDed (which would show up on your alerts). Grorp (talk) 05:20, 26 September 2023 (UTC)


 * I think the redirect is fine. "Constructive" on its own isn't really a legal term that needs its own page (although if anyone disagrees, they can of course BRD). Pinging @JamesLucas (the editor who made the redirect): Best practice is to make a note on the target page per WP:BLAR. I notice that you also didn't add a redirect category to the article. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:37, 26 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the mention of BLAR. Didn't know about that one and I do come across articles that have been redirect-ified, and have done it myself, so that will be useful to me.


 * I don't know what you mean about a "redirect category", nor which article you meant by "the article". Is that something I need to know about? If so, please point me to some guideline or help article. Thanks.


 * I dealt with the equine article by restoring it and then expanding the article. But I had to pick through the editor's contributions to find what other articles and bits he affected in that topic area, and that's when I noticed he was doing it to other articles, too. I was just notifying this wikiproject about the Constructive article, especially since the editor's edit summary expressed uncertainly about which target to point it to. Grorp (talk) 03:14, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * On redirect categories, see WP:RCAT, especially WP:REDCAT, which describes redirect templates. I meant that the now redirect page should be categorized, not "the article".
 * As I noted, I think this redirect is fine. "Constructive" is a broad term that has implications outside of the law and isn't really a legal term of art. voorts (talk/contributions) 03:43, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for directing me there. I have already been using rcats myself, but had never before put a category on a redirect page. Nor did I realize the rcat template would add categories. That explains the name rcat; LOL. Now I know for future use. Thanks. Grorp (talk) 04:52, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Wendell Holland nominated for deletion
I have nominated the article about Wendell Holland for deletion. You may input your comments at Articles for deletion/Wendell Holland. Thanks! George Ho (talk) 18:49, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Bibb County School District vs. Wickman
Hi all, I am trying to find sources for Bibb County School District vs. Wickman, a 2005 case tried by the Supreme Court of Alabama and have come up with nothing across the board. No news articles, no books, nothing in the Caselaw Access Project, and nothing for the other Alabama case (Thomas vs. Dothan School District) mentioned in the body of the article. Could anyone point me to additional resources where I could look up this case? If I can't find anything I will probably nominate it for deletion. Thanks! Kazamzam (talk) 18:08, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Yep, that's definitely a hoax. Note how it's word-for-word identical in places with how the Santa Fe article looked at the time—with the exception that the court supposedly reached the exact opposite conclusion. Send it to AfD, and make sure it gets listed on the WP:HOAXLIST: thirteen-and-a-half years is pretty remarkable. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 18:25, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Argumentation theory
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Argumentation theory that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. —usernamekiran (talk) 15:22, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Move request at Trust law
Proposed to move to "Trust (law)": Talk:Trust_law. 98.248.84.55 (talk) 17:58, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Tax protester constitutional arguments
Tax protester constitutional arguments has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:50, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Andrew Malkinson
Thought I should notify this WikiProject of the above article, which has been recently created. --GnocchiFan (talk) 16:45, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Input requested at Articles for deletion/Reasonableness
Your input at this deletion request, which I believe falls under the scope of this WikiProject, would be very much appreciated. Thank you! GnocchiFan (talk) 13:18, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Example of an ideal "Law in Country" article
Is there any example or template page of an ideal (complete and aspiring to be FA) article Law in Country? --Onwa (talk) 16:30, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Credibility bot
As this is a highly active WikiProject, I would like to introduce you to Credibility bot. This is a bot that makes it easier to track source usage across articles through automated reports and alerts. We piloted this approach at Vaccine safety and we want to offer it to any subject area or domain. We need your support to demonstrate demand for this toolkit. If you have a desire for this functionality, or would like to leave other feedback, please endorse the tool or comment at WP:CREDBOT. Thanks! Harej (talk) 18:06, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

US patent law: reasonable royalty as a compensation for infringement:
I started a draft article about a high-profile US case law related to reasonable royalty as a compensation for patent infringement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Georgia-Pacific_Corp._v._United_States_Plywood_Corp., which is still a good law, i.e. the controlling precedent. However, this article was not approved for posting. I am not sure, what can be done to improve it, and I would like to invite other editors, with expertise in the US Patent Law and in wiki rules to work on improving this draft. Walter Tau (talk) 10:42, 5 June 2023 (UTC)


 * @Walter Tau: The article (currently at Draft:Georgia-Pacific Corp. v. United States Plywood Corp.) reads as an overview of the rule, not of the case itself. It might be reasonable to rename the article title reflect this (ie, move to Georgia-Pacific factors. I haven't read through any of the sources, but the reviewer seems to think that the case does not meet significant coverage. I would guess that maybe the sources only mention the case to support the rule, not to discuss the case itself.
 * One strategy might be to incorporate this rule into a bigger subject, possibly at Royalty payment or Patent infringement, or, more likely, at Patent infringement under United States law. I’m a big believer in the expand-then-split method myself: expand the high-level article until the subtopic is clearly too big to be contained within that page, at which point you split it off. So by this logic you would create a section,, until needing to split it off to Georgia-Pacific factors. — HTGS (talk) 00:42, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for your explanation and suggestion. In the past I actually expanded many articles myself, and then other editors split them. I am going to try this trick again here !!! Walter Tau (talk) 15:07, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Assistance?
Hello. There is a discussion at the bottom of the talk page here (Talk:Stanley Woodward (attorney)) about what is appropriate to include in an article about a lawyer. Perhaps someone at this page can weigh in? That talk page does not get many eyes. Thanks. 2603:7000:2101:AA00:948B:39F8:685B:16A6 (talk) 18:59, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Heck v. Humphrey
I was surprised to see we had no article on Heck v. Humphrey (512 U.S. 477), so I created a stub. It needs a lot of improvement. I hope editors with a better understanding of these matters will improve it.

Thanks. —Mark Dominus (talk) 06:16, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Inconsistency in Younger v. Harris
I noted at Talk:Younger v. Harris that the article seems to be inconsistent and provides two different lists of exceptions; it would be great if an expert could take a look. Joriki (talk) 19:48, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Original research problem (Indeterminacy debate in legal theory)
Hi, was hoping to get some input from contributors with law-related experience/expertise. An issue cropped up last week about an editor adding large amounts of uncited material to the page Indeterminacy debate in legal theory; when asked about citations and whether the material constituted original research, they responded with a fair amount of hostility (engaging, ironically, in a kind of weird rules-lawyering) but also seemed to confirm there was indeed OR going on. I've summarised the issue on the NOR noticeboard already, but someone there suggested I ask ye all for your take, particularly regarding whether it's worth trying to save some/all of the added text in the article by editing & adding citations and how that might be done, or whether it should just be reverted. Thanks in advance for any thoughts! AntiDionysius (talk) 13:01, 23 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately I'm not read up in this aspect of legal philosophy, but per my comment on the NOR noticeboard post, this is pure trolling: not following Wikipedia's P&Gs for citing sources or OR and then arguing that those rules are themselves indeterminate. voorts (talk/contributions) 15:30, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that makes sense. I did not take the nonsense about the applicability of P&Gs especially seriously but given the editor's apparent determination to defend their work I felt like it would be good to seek some consensus before reverting all their edits; I am inclined now to do that. Thank you! AntiDionysius (talk) 15:50, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I was just looking into where to revert this morning, this version from before the large amount of recent edits looks right. I was just holding off in case anyone else had any comments. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 15:59, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Yep, that's the one I'd been looking at too. Feel free to do so, or I'll get to it shortly. AntiDionysius (talk) 16:08, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

FTC v. Amazon
We now have an article on FTC v. Amazon. This potentially has the makings of being a landmark antitrust case; we should probably have a better article to match. &mdash; The Anome (talk) 22:42, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Proposed solutions to issues with Backlog of unexamined patent applications
Hello,

I'm asking this here because this is the only WikiProject listed as being in the scope of that article & that article is too neglected to have an active talk page.

I noticed that this article's content deals almost exclusively with the United States, specifically the United States Patent and Trademark Office. Only a few sparse sentences throughout the article make it not a US-centric article by mentioning the European Patent Office and Japanese Patent Office, mostly in passing.

This makes the article read as unfocused and unfinished. So I suggest one of the following solutions:

A) Rename to something like "Backlog of unexamined patent applications in the United States" / "Backlog of unexamined United States patent applications" / "Backlog of USPTO applications" etc, then trim out the few sentences that aren't about the USPTO

or

B) Restructure the article to have dedicated sections about backlogs in the US, EU, Japan, and other patent offices with a high volume of applications, then rework and expand/trim as needed to give each section equal weight

or

C) Do both, making one article be about the subject globally & a separate article to contain extra US-centric info

With how few eyes are on that article, I probably could just do one of these myself and no one would care, but I thought it'd be better to at least get a second opinion before trying to make any major changes. Any thoughts or comments are appreciated.

Thank you,

 Vanilla  Wizard  💙 16:09, 1 October 2023 (UTC)


 * I think renaming is just enough, because it is almost about the backlog of pending patents in the US. The mentions about the backlogs in other countries could be kept as comparative cases, or any other use case useful to explain the article's subject. The proposed name should be one best depicting article's contents. The first and second proposals are easy to understand, and each one of them foresee the possibility of similar articles for other countries. The third proposal is not that clear. I don't know if there is any other proposal for renaming that could be OK. Onwa (talk) 17:37, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Option A1 is the clearest imo. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:32, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Vanilla Wizard, for taking this on! Option C seems the best option to me. The backlog at the EPO, and in Europe in general, is also discussed in many sources (for example, from a quick search: ) and should not be neglected IMHO. The material is out there :-). Edcolins (talk) 14:00, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you so very much for providing me with a lengthy list of sources to work with! This will be very helpful! I'll probably start with expanding the article to include more non-American info and then balance it out by forking America-centric info to an article draft focused specifically on the USPTO backlog and try to bring that article up to shape.  Vanilla  Wizard  💙 17:34, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
 * One way to structure it would be an article on Europe, an article on the US, etc., and then a general article (or list with context) on global patent backlogs. voorts (talk/contributions) 17:37, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Additional opinions on updates to Qualified immunity
There's a discussion in Talk:Qualified immunity about whether and how to include content pertaining to an analysis of the foundations of qualified immunity, along with a recently filed, pertinent SCOTUS petition in the case of Hulbert v. Pope.

The discussion has also ranged into other content within the article that could potentially be revised in accordance with WP:OR, specifically WP:PRIMARY. The current editors are deadlocked, and it would be helpful to have others weigh in on how best to go about updating the article, since Qualified immunity is within the scope of WP:LAW. Thanks! Wigginx (talk) 05:09, 18 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Replied there. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:26, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:CanLawCase
Template:CanLawCase has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. -- 65.92.244.127 (talk) 21:39, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Rename "Court Case Task Force"
An editor has requested that Wikipedia:WikiProject Current events/Court Case Task Force be moved to another page, which may be of interest to this WikiProject. You &#32;are invited to participate in the move discussion. -- 65.92.244.127 (talk) 22:31, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Style question
Is there a consensus over whether the "v" in court cases shoukd have a full stop ("v.") or not? There are many examples of both in article titles. Colonies Chris (talk) 19:06, 29 October 2023 (UTC)


 * In England it's usually displayed as just 'v', in USA it's 'v.' GiantSnowman 19:46, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I would take a look at the Bluebook international tables, which describes the local style for particular jurisdictions. As Snowman noted, the U.S. always uses a full stop and England does not. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:14, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Law related TV and film
Hello, just wondering if law related shows/film are within the scope of this project? Pages such as:


 * Legal drama
 * Law & Order
 * Anatomy of a Murder

etc...

Thanks in advance :) Idiosincrático (talk) 05:14, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think they are within the scope, but the wikiproject page says "Some Wikipedians have formed a project to better organize information in articles related to Law.", so for some they could be included and for others they are not. --Onwa (talk) 21:50, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Featured article nomination of Shostakovich v. Twentieth Century-Fox Film Corp.
I have nominated the above named article for FA (nomination page). If somebody with expertise in IP, particularly moral rights and copyright, has time to review the article and leave comments on the nomination page, I would appreciate it. Best, voorts (talk/contributions) 20:49, 4 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Excellent, well done for nominating it! I saw the article on the main page and was immediately drawn in. §§ LegFun §§ talk §§ 19:49, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Deportation of undocumented Afghans from Pakistan
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Deportation of undocumented Afghans from Pakistan that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. —Alalch E. 23:59, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Student editing non-notable attorney bios
See Wiki Ed/North Carolina Central University/Artificial Intelligence and Law (Fall 2023). This class came to my attention via a backlink to a non-reliable source, attorneyatlawmagazine.com (see the discussion at this RSN thread and I suspect that this site, which is also used by the students, is more of the same). The work they have done so far is problematic (see Melanie Harrison Okoro), and there's more in the pipeline that look like run-of-the-mill, non-notable attorneys, being puffed up by non-reliable or sources which they paid for coverage (see sample at User:Oabrown23/April Dawson). I understand non-notable attorney articles squeak through on scant scrutiny quite often, as they get passing mention (not significant coverage) in press for cases, but this is an entire class creating problematic bios, which might warrant special attention from this project, as it looks like several are headed for deletion. The instructor, user:9Starbucks, has never edited mainspace, and there is also Wiki Ed/North Carolina Central University/Artificial Intelligence and Law (Fall 2023). Ping User:Brianda (Wiki Ed) and User:Ian (Wiki Ed) and User:Helaine (Wiki Ed). This class does not seem to have a grasp on reliable sources or notability. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  02:05, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Note that in the case of April Dawson, there's also a COI (NCCU); I haven't checked others. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  02:18, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the heads up. I hope that the Wiki Ed folks can address this. voorts (talk/contributions) 03:00, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
 * In the medical realm, I've had good luck with Ian having a word with the professor, but I don't know about this editing area. Hopefully, they will suggest the students in this class not move their work out of sandbox, but the articles already established need cleanup, and maybe AFD (haven't checked closely). Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  03:02, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi @SandyGeorgia, Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I've asked the instructor to keep student work in the sandbox, until we have a chance to review and provide feedback to the students. Will keep you updated. If anything else comes up, please ping me. Just fyi, I'm at WikiCon North America, and will be a bit slow to respond. Brianda (Wiki Ed) (talk) 16:56, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
 * thanks so much for that. Now perhaps the good members of WP:LAW can focus only on cleaning up the already problematic at :
 * Melanie Harrison Okoro
 * Valencia Koomson
 * Rediet Abebe
 * Ralph Gilles
 * Khalia Braswell
 * Some of the sourcing is atrocious, WP:SIGCOV may not be met in all cases, not sure if any AFDs are in order, cleanup needs, etc. Thanks again, Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  17:21, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I went through those, and unlike User:Oabrown23/April Dawson, they aren't lawyers, so nothing else for this project to address, if the rest won't be moved to mainspace. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  18:35, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
 * , thank you for making me aware of the discussion here, and thanks for catching the copyvio situation at Valencia Koomson. Likely I should've noticed the latter myself.  I take the student editor at Koomson's article as having acted in good faith, and not at fault for the copyvio situation; I do agree that it looks like they could be getting better mentoring in the course than they have been.  FWIW and possibly slightly off-topic: in my opinion notability looks a bit unlikely at the articles Melanie Harrison Okoro (already at AfD) and Rediet Abebe, somewhat more plausible for Valencia Koomson and Khalia Braswell via GNG but not WP:NPROF; I didn't look as carefully at Ralph Gilles. Russ Woodroofe (talk) 02:51, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
 * the copyvio pre-dated the students, and in almost every student editing problem, it's not the student-- it's the lax professors, who have never edited Wikipedia, getting free writing tutors at the expense of volunteer Wikipedians (the problems in medical content are real, as opposed to just puffery). I only found this one because I regularly check backlinks to attorneyatlawmagazine, because it's so infuriating that run-of-the mill, non-notable attorneys pay a magazine to be featured, so they can then get a Wikipedia article by using the magazine to claim notability (that gig is up :)  I am more than a little bit dismal at AFD, so I take care in what I submit.  Which is also why one of the first things I check is copyvio from the first version; that's a quicker route than AFD, and saves you the time of checking every other source and discovering the copyvio after you've invested a lot of work into the article! I can't convince myself any of the others should go to AFD, but I'm a terrible judge (used to working at the FA level, little experience with AFD), so will leave that to others. This course will be back for a spring term, and hopefully by then, Wiki Ed staff will have gotten the message across. Regards, Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  03:32, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Another one to be on the look out for: Lawnext.com (similar to attorneyatlawmagazine.com). Sandy Georgia (Talk)  19:42, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Deletion discussion at Articles for deletion/2023 Special Session of the Parliament of India
You are invited to join the deletion discussion for the article 2023 Special Session of the Parliament of India at AFD. Kind regards, W. Tell DCCXLVI ( talk to me!/c ) 15:45, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

General jurisdiction
General jurisdiction was nominated for deletion, and I would appreciate some help in improving the article to avoid a repeat of this. Cheers! BD2412 T 19:36, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Jo Hee-de
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Jo Hee-de that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. UtherSRG (talk) 12:50, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Hamdan v. Rumsfeld
Hamdan v. Rumsfeld has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:55, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for United States District Court for the Eastern District of Missouri
United States District Court for the Eastern District of Missouri has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Hog Farm Talk 15:18, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Bump
Anyone willing to take a look at my DYK please? Template:Did you know nominations/Fair Work Ombudsman v Quest South Perth — MaxnaCarta  ( 💬 • 📝 ) 23:44, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Sexual and gender-based violence in the 7 October attack on Israel
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Sexual and gender-based violence in the 7 October attack on Israel that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 21:09, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Constitution of New Jersey
Constitution of New Jersey has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 17:18, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Position of trust
The article on position of trust could do with quite a bit of work, and seems to have been in this state for quite a while. Bringing it here for anyone who is interested in improving the article. GnocchiFan (talk) 20:33, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Progressivity in United States income tax
I started this discussion: Talk:Progressivity in United States income tax. George Ho (talk) 05:06, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Bharatiya Sakshya Act, 2023
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Bharatiya Sakshya Act, 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. – robertsky (talk) 19:12, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Full Faith and Credit Clause
A suggestion to lowercase the name of this U.S. Constitution clause, now in a relisting. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:57, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Business method patent vs. business model
Calling for patent and copyright experts to overhaul the article in regards to the fundamental difference between a business method and a business model, as outlined in my relevant post on the talkpage. --2003:DA:CF0A:F294:686B:7CDE:7FD1:8E41 (talk) 09:05, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Discussion regarding LAWRS proposal at VPP
There's a proposal for a LAWRS at VPP that others might be interested in:. Best, voorts (talk/contributions) 00:54, 7 December 2023 (UTC)


 * What would help a lot with such discussion (if it ever can be helped) is to contribute examples of bad use of law-related sourcing one has seen on WP, or arguments one has had over bad sourcing. SamuelRiv (talk) 14:25, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia language versions are not suitable categories for law
For many subjects related to law, the main Wikipedia categorising in language versions doesn't work. Main reason is because law is being categorised by jurisdiction, not language. For example the Dutch language Wikipedia knows at least two jurisdictions: Belgium and The Netherlands, the German language Wikipedia knows at least three jurisdictions: Germany, Austria, Switzerland, and the English language version knows many more, to start with the biggest: United Kingdom and the United States. So a law concept valid for one jurisdiction cannot be projected into another jurisdiction by simply translating a language version of a law concept. Therefore it's difficult to properly describe law concepts and give the articles logical names. It is impossible to connect articles within one language version, describing the situation in different jurisdictions, through Wikidata. Does anyone know: has this been discussed before and if yes, what was the outcome? When not, are there existing solutions for this problem or do they have to be developed? Thanks -VanArtevelde (talk) 10:58, 11 December 2023 (UTC)


 * I don't understand. When a term has multiple meanings in different contexts, the article about the term explains those meanings in as many contexts as editors are able to add. For example, the term dualism in philosophy is grotesquely overloaded, as is complexity in physics and mathematics (or field, or any variable name for that matter). So a structure of law like a decree or a corporation will have different meanings in different jurisdictions and contexts, and sure enough, the articles list many (but not all) such contexts. SamuelRiv (talk) 13:57, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Legal status of LGBT in Indonesia
Hi.. There's a discussion to clarify definition of "legal" on Talk:LGBT rights in Indonesia, More opinions are welcome. Thank you. Ckfasdf (talk) 04:30, 29 December 2023 (UTC)


 * ✅ voorts (talk/contributions) 04:49, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Topfreedom
While undoubtedly an important topic, I feel like this article and Female toplessness in the United States ought to be properly analysed by members of this WikiProject and that of WikiProject Sex and Sexology to make sure the detail given is not unduly intricate, whether the number of images are gratuitous (yes yes, I know Wikipedia is uncensored), and whether the sources given are reliable for the claims made as there seems to be some issues on the talk page for this. Thank you in advance! GnocchiFan (talk) 21:23, 27 December 2023 (UTC)


 * I don't really have the time or expertise to weigh in here, unfortunately, but is the necklace in this image a Swastika in a Star of David???? If so, that's certainly an ideology or something. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:18, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Raëlism Levivich (talk) 23:48, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion you may be interested in
Talk:British_Post_Office_scandal - the article on the British Post Office scandal has extensive legalese coverage that may be better split into separate articles. The input of users who are familiar with writing about civil and criminal court cases in the UK would be appreciated. Kingsif (talk) 23:43, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Legal norm
I was looking at the original 14.5kb revision of Legal norm (rev. 897919123), and I'm not sure if I believe that that could be original writing done all in one go, without copying it from somewhere wholesale. Earwig came up with 97% likelihood of copying, but that appears to be a backwards copy (or at least, archive.org has never crawled it). By rev. 900737115 a couple of weeks later, the OP had added eleven references, but the citations generally lack page numbers and feel like an afterthought to me, as if someone knew enough about policy to feel obligated to add some, and just sprinkled around some good, general references here and there without being too specific to make it hard to verify. But the polished language was there since the beginning. Just wondering what folks here think about this? Am I being paranoid, and this is just an editor who's lazy with citations and the article is probably fine? Or is this wholesale copying, and I should slap a copyvio on it on the way to blanking the article and getting the history WP:REVDELed? Mathglot (talk) 08:11, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
 * It looks like the writer was a university student learning to write for Wikipedia, and the article was written in advance. In the absence of evidence, I see no reason to think it was a copyright violation. John M Baker (talk) 12:41, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Why are crime and law enforcement this project's ambit?
I don't find that most articles about specific instances of crimes require attention from law experts. Not unless the legal appraisal is complex or in dispute, or a novel legal issue is raised. Nor do I think that law enforcement is really our domain, except for criminal procedure law and such. Of course, prosecutors are trained in law, but I don't think that means we should automatically put articles about their actions in the scope of WP:LAW. I find it makes it harder to find articles that are actually mainly about law, and not just tangentially connected. Surely Wikipedia Project: Criminal Justice is more specialized?

To this end, I've posted at the Village Pump idea lab, under the section Excise the "crime" topic from the "law" topic; make "law, government and administration" an established grouping of topics". I'd appreciate everyone's input.

Incidentally, I also have some quibbles about poor delineations of scope for many law articles; often, they don't specify that they're specific to jurisdictions in the common law tradition, and don't say what the civil law equivalent would be. But I'll make that the subject of a separate section sometime later.

Thank you for your attention. §§ LegFun §§ talk §§ 20:33, 17 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Could you post a link to your idea lab post? Generally, WikiProjects decide their own scope, not the Village Pump. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:35, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
 * WikiProjects deciding their own scope does make sense. I went to the Village Pump because my initial concern was for the categories that general pages like the FAC review processes use to group together candidates. They put crime in with law, which I find a bit deceptive. A big reform like that on a page like FAC that involves more people than just WP:LAW users made me think getting a broader consensus was the way to go.
 * But now that I think about it, this evening's comment and my earlier comment on the Village Pump idea lab page aren't identical. So I'll leave my Village Pump comment just for reference, and declare my comment on this page its own thing. I'd love to link my other comment, but I've encountered some difficulty because the title I chose for it contains quotation marks, so I'm afraid I don't know how to write out the bit after the # to make a working link . . . §§ LegFun §§ talk §§ 20:55, 17 January 2024 (UTC) — edited 20:58 UTC
 * Also, generally speaking, this WikiProject doesn't have any active projects going on right now. Some people watch this talk page and there are occasional posts/questions, but other than that, there's no coordination. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:02, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see. I also get the feeling that law isn't the most active topic in general? Maybe with the exception of biographies and U.S. Supreme Court cases?
 * I suppose it's especially difficult to put into an encyclopedic format; doubly so because a worldwide perspective involves comparative law, which few people are trained in (yours truly isn't either . . . yet.) §§ LegFun §§ talk §§ 21:04, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I'd say on the contrary that matters of law are frequently discussed at current events articles, and all too often people would rather interpret primary sources as written, or cite non-qualified secondary sources, than go by what is really existing P&G. (The discussion at the LAWRS VPP proposal linked above rather bothered me at the number of people saying no problem existed, or expert secondary sources weren't necessary.) Just from my watchlist this week: Talk:Alan_Dershowitz (Epstein whodunnits), Talk:LGBT_rights_in_Indonesia, Talk:White_phosphorus_munitions/Archives/2020/January (I had to remove all this garbage that was re-added), Talk:War_crimes_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine (we gave up), Talk:Assassination_of_Qasem_Soleimani (et al over 6 archives, similar to every other assassination/killing/MDK page name). From pages I frequent, international law is the topic people seem to misunderstand most, yet think they can cite non-experts in most (which is convenient because international criminal law is almost never prosecuted -- by design afaiu). Anything that can be done to raise attention to the need for keeping to actually reliable RS is worthwhile in itself. SamuelRiv (talk) 00:01, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Mexico vs gun manufacturers
I am looking for the case mentioned in. But I was only able to find Estados Unidos Mexicanos v. DeCoster. How do I find the mentioned case? --Ysangkok (talk) 03:07, 23 January 2024 (UTC)


 * http://media.ca1.uscourts.gov/pdf.opinions/22-1823P-01A.pdf (I searched the First Circuit website for opinions released on 1/22/2024). voorts (talk/contributions) 03:43, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Invention Secrecy Act
Hi, I found this project/group from the talk page here after I started expanding the article linked. Are there any examples of laws that had limited duration impacts on individuals like this one did with its Secrecy Orders that I should look at when considering formatting? I'm thinking that a listing of notable individual situations that were later declassified would be very useful as examples. I wanted to find other articles that may have similar things so that I could see how they are arranged. Thanks. -- Very Polite Person (talk) 00:20, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
 * The Patriot Act has obvious similarities, but I am not sure to what extent anything in that article might be useful to you. John M Baker (talk) 00:37, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't see why that should be written as a list, rather than written in prose in a section on the history of the Act. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:50, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I assumed as prose, yeah. I just wanted to find something kind of along those lines to see how other articles did it. -- Very Polite Person (talk) 01:27, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I can't think of any off the top of my head, but you might want to look at Featured Articles under this WikiProject. I am going to leave some comments on the article talk page. voorts (talk/contributions) 02:03, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks again, your help was great, as well as looking at those. It let me add more of a broader array of sources that I can go back to now, and new directions to dig. -- Very Polite Person (talk) 15:36, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Furrer v Snelling
Can we comment on this article? Bearian (talk) 20:46, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

RfC related to law.
FYI. RfC related to legal cases: --David Tornheim (talk) 08:26, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Talk:J._Sai_Deepak

Henry v London Greater Transport Services
I came across this article on an English law case; it could use some attention from someone interested in English law. For one thing, the lead trails off in an incomplete sentence, and looking at the history, it looks like that's how it was created! And much of the body of the article is hard to grasp for someone not knowledgeable in English law - like, is "reasonable, certain and notorious" really a thing? What does it mean? Brianyoumans (talk) 17:56, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I removed the half-written sentence and tagged this as unreferenced. Pinging @James500, who works on UK law topics. Best, voorts (talk/contributions) 21:55, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
 * "Reasonable, certain and notorious" is the test for the legal validity of a trade custom that was given in the judgment in Bond v CAV Ltd [1983] IRLR 360 (a test that was said to be based on earlier decisions in Devonald v Rosser and R v Stoke upon Trent). This test is described in paragraph 28 of the judgment in Henry v London General Transport Services, and in paragraphs 28 and 29 it is said that the Employment Tribunal, and the parties to the case, all agreed with this test. "Reasonable, certain and notorious" is certainly "really a thing", and that fact should have been obvious from even the most cursory examination of the transcript of the judgment linked to, as a reference, from the article. There is, frankly, nothing surprising about that test. Local customs, for example, have been required to be reasonable and certain by cases and other authority from at least as early as the 14th to 17th centuries, and this is so fundamental and well known that it is covered in some detail in the most introductory (university undergraduate) books on English law: (citing cases at least as far back as 13 Edw 3, which is approximately 1339). And, in all fairness, "reasonable, certain and notorious" is not difficult to understand, nothwithstanding that there is a certain amount of nuance in the precise meaning of those expressions. "Reasonable, certain and notorious" are ordinary English words. Any reader who cannot understand at least the gist of those words is a reader who cannot speak English. For example, in this context, "notorious" just means something to the effect that the custom is so well known that the relevant person could not have failed to assume that it was impliedly included in his contract. This is so obvious that, even if you did not know what was said in Bond v CAV Ltd (and you do know what was said in that case, because there is an external link to a source that quotes it), it should not be difficult to understand. "Something that everyone knows" is the ordinary meaning of the word "notorious" in any context, and readers should know what that word means. James500 (talk) 00:34, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The article definitely looks improved. On the western side of The Pond where I reside "notorious" almost universally means "to be known for one's evil deeds", but you are correct that I should have thought of its original meaning of simply "well known". Thanks for the explanation! Brianyoumans (talk) 02:06, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Offence against the person
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Offence against the person that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ASUKITE 03:00, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Women's month categorizations
Hello. In honor of the women's month, I invite members of this wikiproject and editors in general to help populate Category:Women's firsts, specially pages related to law, like Category:First women judges and Category:First women chief justices. Sincerely, -- Thinker78  (talk) 00:37, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Please weigh in on Gibson Dunn.
I’m hoping to find editors with an interest in law to take a look at some suggested changes. The current page contains numerous policy violations leading to the mischaracterization of several prominent cases. I have a conflict, so I’ll leave it to neutral editors to decide:Talk:Gibson_Dunn CaseyatLeicesterStreet (talk) 14:33, 13 March 2024 (UTC)


 * I'll take a look. Sorry the edit request has taken so long. I assume that's because it includes several changes. SilverLocust 💬 16:26, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Ronald M. George
Ronald M. George has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Spinixster  (chat!)  11:15, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Seton Hall reports
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Seton Hall reports that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 13:12, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

New article: Consciousness of guilt
I have finished enough of Consciousness of guilt to go public with it. Further development will be appreciated. -- Valjean (talk) ( PING me ) 19:04, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I'd recommend looking at law reviews, law journals, and legal treatises on evidence. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:08, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Legal status of fictional pornography depicting minors
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Legal status of fictional pornography depicting minors that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. – robertsky (talk) 11:25, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Capital punishment
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Capital punishment that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. RodRabelo7 (talk) 01:58, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Capital punishment in New York (state)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Capital punishment in New York (state) that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. RodRabelo7 (talk) 02:00, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:2023 Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:2023 Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. RodRabelo7 (talk) 00:21, 22 April 2024 (UTC)