Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Lists/Archive 11

Redlinks on incomplete lists
Would someone please direct me to the policy stating that lists cannot have items either as red links with citations or as simple text with citations?

Various editors at various times have removed names from the articles List of people from Brampton and List of people from Mississauga, despite the bullet entries for those individuals being backed up with a reference to prominent reference works like Dictionary of Canadian Biography and The Canadian Encyclopedia. -- Zanimum (talk) 00:41, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
 * What did those editors say in their edit summaries, or when you asked them why they removed entries that had citations that supported notability? postdlf (talk) 01:03, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
 * The most relevant guideline is probably WP:LISTBIO (and maybe WP:CSC). Entries in lists of people should be notable. Most of the time the requirement is just that the person have their own article (presuming notability is established by the article, and that it would be deleted if not notable), but there's no strict policy that says as much. When there's disagreement, the inclusion criteria of a given list should be determined on the talk page of that list. Regardless, in addition to there being no article for the names in question, the links you've added may verify that the person is from Brampton/Mississauga but don't themselves establish notability. &mdash;  Rhododendrites talk  \\ 03:45, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Without knowing all the circumstances, I suspect it might have to do with the topic "List of people from Mississauga" -- i.e. is it important to have an exhaustive list of people from a particular locality? This is the case where I'd be inclined to create an article first, and then add entries to the list. Come to think of it, that would be my preference for any "list of people" topic. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:03, 17 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the replies. Edit summaries? The most recent string of removals by Bakilas have no summary beyond the automatically generated section headers. The links have all been to Order of Canada citations or high quality reference works, which should establish notability and location at once.
 * My aim is certainly not for an exhaustive list, just those one should be able to make an easy case for. Here's the most recent batch of nixed folks, they've been moved to the talk page. While this still makes them accessible to Wikipedians.
 * In relevance to the topic in general, both a local news blog and a Canada 150 section of the local newspaper have run uncredited, edited reprints in the last month. (Some of the names and connections are hard to find, so it would be challenging for someone to assemble one of these by themselves.) --  Zanimum (talk) 14:26, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Do you really want List of people from Mississauga (or any other list for that matter) to have everybody from there? Why don't we open a phone book (remember those?) and add all the names from it. Sounds ridiculous? That's because it is. Only people with articles that assert notability and where the article supports their inclusion in the list belong in it. That should be for all lists. -- Alexf(talk) 15:39, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
 * To be fair, it doesn't sound like Zanimum intends to include everyone (he/she said as much -- "just those one should be able to make an easy [notability?] case for"). That said, that someone is listed in the Canadian Encyclopedia does not necessarily mean the person is notable. We need significant coverage in reliable sources independent of the subject. It's very rare that would be satisfied by one source unless it points to something that satisfies a subject-specific criterion (which, in turn, indicates significant coverage should be available). &mdash;  Rhododendrites talk  \\ 16:44, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
 * To be clear, the post was not intended as a reply to Zanimum (I get it) but to the OP. I see many lists with more red-links (also count as advertisement) than real value. (see: List of cider brands). This has to be cleared and we must make sure all lists point to articles. The purpose of lists should be to make it easier to find articles, not to indiscriminately spam people and companies. -- Alexf(talk) 16:52, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Types of mythological or fantastic beings in contemporary fiction
I'm no list expert, but the (basically) unsourced list Types of mythological or fantastic beings in contemporary fiction seems undeserving of existence to me.— TAnthonyTalk 00:14, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

List of museums in Ohio
Would someone from this WikiProject mind taking a look at List of museums in Ohio? It has quite of lot of entries and many of them are redlinks/no links without their own articles whose inclusion seems a bit iffy per WP:LSC. Someone was also embedding link into the article for pretty much every individual entry which is not really allowed per WP:EL, WP:ELLIST and WP:NOTLINKFARM. -- Marchjuly (talk) 14:04, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you for taking the time to work on the list, and for looking into quality control matters more deeply.
 * A question you could ask yourself is "does this enhance the table?" If so, then see WP:IAR.
 * Linking to an official page of an article's subject is fine. In the case of a list, the focus of the article is its list items. ("List of" in the title isn't part of the subject, it simply designates the format the article is in -- the article isn't about a list, it is a list).
 * Since the editor added external links as an additional feature to the table, rather than in place of the terms' internal links, he did not violate WP:EL or WP:ELLIST. WP:LINKFARM pertains primarily to external links sections; a bloated list of external links at the end of an article tends to detract from the article. Tables are designed to present data for ease of lookup. Are website links useful data to include in the table? Or do they make the table worse? If so, how so?
 * Concerning notability, whether or not a list item has a corresponding article is irrelevant, as WP:LSC states that list items should be "supported by reliable sources", that is, fulfill WP:V and WP:N. Note that the scope of the list is local to Ohio. Are the museums listed notable in Ohio? Or at least in the counties, cities, or towns in which they are located?
 * Keep in mind that all of Wikipedia's rules have rationales behind them -- and those reasons don't cover every situation. Understanding the underlying reasons help to determine if a given rule fits the context of a design feature in question. All of our rules attempt to assist editors to make a better encyclopedia, with better articles. When the guidelines don't cover a specific type of situation, it is up to the editors on the front lines to figure out how to make the best articles (or tables) they can. If their solution works well, it may set the precedent for similar articles to follow.
 * I hope I've been of help. If you have further questions, feel free to ping me. Sincerely, The Transhumanist 07:53, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

List of songs recorded by X
I would love to see some guidance on this genre, which in certain areas seems to acquire mythic proportions, serving only to proliferate the walled gardens in which K-pop blossoms. I've redirected a number of them, but was surprised to see that the list for Taylor Swift is a FL, with many of the entries being non-notable songs (and thus limited signage, to the albums), references consisting of CD booklets, and basically very little information. Drmies (talk) 17:55, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
 * They are titled X discography (Taylor Swift discography, The Beatles discography, etc.). For genre guidance, see the relevant music subproject. The Transhumanist 06:19, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
 * User:The Transhumanist, thanks, but List of songs recorded by Taylor Swift is not Taylor Swift discography. Drmies (talk) 14:23, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

List of incidents of violence against women
Dear Colleagues, I really see no value in a list of this nature. Surely this qualifies as WP:LISTCRUFT? Which incidents go on the list? What are the criteria? There must be literally millions of cases from around the world. If it boils down to cases that have been written about in the Wikipedia, then surely cataloguing these is best served with WP:categories, which work on the basis of existing pages. A list on the other hand is supposed to cover more than a mere listing of entries. As examples, please see here, here, here. Regards, Rui &#39;&#39;Gabriel&#39;&#39; Correia (talk) 13:03, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
 * The list's talk page or one of the listed WikiProjects on that talk page may be a better place to discuss your questions regarding the content of that particular list and its inclusion criteria. See also WP:NOTDUP re: your comment about categories; we don't have to choose one or the other, and if the inclusion criteria is loose that problem is if anything magnified with categories. postdlf (talk) 14:39, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
 * A brief skim of the first article you mention looks like a standard list-class used for organizing and indexing other WP articles. You are welcome to discuss inclusion criteria on that article's talk page. But according to WP:SAL, it is a well-structured list according to WP:CSC criterion 1 (although there are some redirects that may need to be cleaned up). Per WP:CLN, categories, lists and navigation boxes can all happily coexist. List-class articles can have some advantages over the other two, such as annotations and additional sourcing. I dislike the term listcruft; more often than not, it is simply used as a synonym for 'i don't like it'. --Mark viking (talk) 17:58, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

List of Confederate monuments and memorials – advice needed
Project members are asked to review List of Confederate monuments and memorials and the talk page. – S. Rich (talk) 05:59, 17 October 2017 (UTC)06:17, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Disambiguating ships
There is a discussion at WT:SHIPS about disambiguating ship articles. One proposal is to use a list format for disambiguation. Members of this WP are welcome to voice their opinions. Mjroots (talk) 14:32, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Disambiguation links on pages tagged by this wikiproject
Wikipedia has many thousands of wikilinks which point to disambiguation pages. It would be useful to readers if these links directed them to the specific pages of interest, rather than making them search through a list. Members of WikiProject Disambiguation have been working on this and the total number is now below 20,000 for the first time. Some of these links require specialist knowledge of the topics concerned and therefore it would be great if you could help in your area of expertise.

A list of the relevant links on pages which fall within the remit of this wikiproject can be found at http://69.142.160.183/~dispenser/cgi-bin/topic_points.py?banner=WikiProject_Lists

Please take a few minutes to help make these more useful to our readers.&mdash; Rod talk 12:37, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Merge proposal
It has been proposed that Timeline of feminism be merged into Timeline of second-wave feminism. Seeking your feedback at Talk:Timeline of feminism. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 11:50, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Split proposal: List of Russian explorers
It has been proposed that the first portion of List of Russian explorers be split out into its own article "History of Russian Exploration". Your feedback would be welcome at Talk:List of Russian explorers. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 01:14, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Please come and help...
Greetings! I have recently relisted for the third time a requested move debate at Talk:List of Sinhalese monarchs, regarding a page related to this WikiProject. Your opinion and rationale are needed so a consensus can be achieved. Thank you and Happy Publishing!  Paine Ellsworth   put'r there  19:53, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Should lists be at the end of an article?
In Science fiction (which as you can imagine is kind of high profile here) there has been an ongoing debate about a list of sub-genres and related genres which is kind of parked right in the middle of the article. It makes more sense to me to move it to the end, both because it slows down readers and it might send them off to other articles before they had finished this one. Is there a policy about where lists should be in an article? WildWookiee (talk) 16:36, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Why would we have a policy instead of just determining, for each article, where a particular list made the most contextual and organizational sense? And if, as you're saying, people are disagreeing about how to handle one particular list included in one article, I don't see it's feasible to impose a blanket rule that would be appropriate and consensus supported for all sublists in all articles. postdlf (talk) 16:39, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks. You are right.  It looks like we are working it out okay.WildWookiee (talk) 01:03, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

RFC on transportation service lists of destinations
There is an RFC on weather Wikipedia should have lists transportation service destinations. See WP:VPP BillHPike (talk, contribs) 08:18, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

does Noma Concours for Picture Book Illustrations come under the purview of this project?
hi wikiproject list editors, is someone able to clarify something for me? back in in September 2016 i added the above article to the lists project as it is full of lists. recently, a couple of editors removed the project from |the article's talkpage (here and here, without any edit summary), i reverted one of the edits here with an edit summary explaining why i believe its part of this project. if someone can let me know whether it is or not that would be great, thanks. Coolabahapple (talk) 07:28, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

List of far-right political parties
I have blanked the content of this article, as it was completely uncited, despite a notice pointing out that deficiency three years ago just after the article was created, and one in January from me. It seems to be a repository of personal opinion and original research. I am unfamiliar with lists, but it seems to me this would be better handled by a category. At least then those watchlisting an article on one of the parties so classified, would see that the category was added, and could engage in a discussion whether it was merited. Kablammo (talk) 01:44, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Assessment
If I understand the stats correctly there are about 14,000 not yet assessed lists, so this will take years if this project is still active. Some projects offer to request or suggest an assessment or re-assessment. The List of protests in the United States by size isn't too shabby, and its importance might be better than low. –84.46.53.38 (talk) 01:11, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Boilerplate leads in lists
There is a discussion at where people in this Wikiproject may be able to offer feedback. E to the Pi times i ( talk  &#124;  contribs ) 17:02, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Official Classical Singles Chart
Hi all. Official Classical Singles Chart has been sitting at Featured list candidates without any new reviews for the last couple of months. If anyone has some time, I would welcome any comments or feedback on the nomination. Thanks, A Thousand Doors (talk &#124; contribs) 11:18, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Hello
This list article at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_Bollywood_films_of_2018 has not yet received an importance rating. The article has also not been given what task force/ workgroup that is part of WikiProject Lists, is supporting this article. Aceing_Winter_Snows_Harsh_Cold (talk) 05:18, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Requested move
There is currently a requested move discussion at Talk:Underworld on whether Underworld should be moved to List of underworlds. Rreagan007 (talk) 16:38, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

WikiProject collaboration notice from the Portals WikiProject
The reason I am contacting you is because there are one or more portals that fall under this subject, and the Portals WikiProject is currently undertaking a major drive to automate portals that may affect them.

Portals are being redesigned.

The new design features are being applied to existing portals.

At present, we are gearing up for a maintenance pass of portals in which the introduction section will be upgraded to no longer need a subpage. In place of static copied and pasted excerpts will be self-updating excerpts displayed through selective transclusion, using the template Transclude lead excerpt.

The discussion about this can be found here.

Maintainers of specific portals are encouraged to sign up as project members here, noting the portals they maintain, so that those portals are skipped by the maintenance pass. Currently, we are interested in upgrading neglected and abandoned portals. There will be opportunity for maintained portals to opt-in later, or the portal maintainers can handle upgrading (the portals they maintain) personally at any time.

Background
On April 8th, 2018, an RfC ("Request for comment") proposal was made to eliminate all portals and the portal namespace. On April 17th, the Portals WikiProject was rebooted to handle the revitalization of the portal system. On May 12th, the RfC was closed with the result to keep portals, by a margin of about 2 to 1 in favor of keeping portals.

There's an article in the current edition of the Signpost interviewing project members about the RfC and the Portals WikiProject.

Since the reboot, the Portals WikiProject has been busy building tools and components to upgrade portals.

So far, 84 editors have joined.

If you would like to keep abreast of what is happening with portals, see the newsletter archive.

If you have any questions about what is happening with portals or the Portals WikiProject, please post them on the WikiProject's talk page.

Thank you. &mdash; The Transhumanist  10:59, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

List of forts in Colorado
Hello,

I have been working on List of forts in Colorado and started added some "history" information. There is a redirect Forts in Colorado and I am wondering if I should now move the "lists" page to the "Forts in Colorado" page... and have a redirect for "List of forts in Colorado" to that specific section.

In other words, does a list page need to be entirely comprised of a list?

Thanks!–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:38, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Split discussion
There is a split discussion at Talk:List of most streamed artists on Spotify that members of this project might interested in taking part in. Hddty. (talk) 08:14, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

List of people from Sardinia
Please see this discussion on excluding or including people of ancestry in lists of peoples articles. Thanks. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 01:51, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

Input request
Editor input is requested at this thread Talk:List of awards and nominations received by Meryl Streep. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 18:35, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

Deletion request for Articles for deletion/List of breakfast drinks (2nd nomination)
Just a heads up there's a deletion request for Articles for deletion/List of breakfast drinks (2nd nomination), which is under the scope of this WikiProject. --Tyw7 (🗣️ Talk • ✍️ Contributions) Please ping me if you had replied 23:46, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Merger discussion for Eric Forman, Michael Kelso, Steven Hyde, and others
Articles which may be of interest to members of this project&mdash;Eric Forman, Michael Kelso, Steven Hyde, and others&mdash;have been proposed for merging with List of That '70s Show characters. If you are interested, please participate in the merger discussion. Thank you. —  A L T E R C A R I  ✍ 14:52, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:List of female racing drivers
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:List of female racing drivers. -- Marchjuly (talk) 04:58, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

List of people from Sardinia

 * Poorly sourced.
 * Who is from Sardinia? Wally Schirra? His paternal grandparents were from Bavaria and Switzerland, and originally of Sardinian ancestry
 * Does a troop belong to a list of people? Xx236 (talk) 08:12, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Discussed at article talk page. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 12:40, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

Tv show template not rendering
Slight emergency:

List of Frontline (PBS) episodes

See the bottom few seasons. They don't render.

I put one of the seasons into a sandbox and it renders fine: User:Anna Frodesiak/Gold sandbox.

Click edit for the whole page, then preview save. There's a red error message.

Is the total page size too big or something? Many thanks. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 23:02, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Anna Frodesiak (talk) 23:23, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

List of years in xxxx articles
Should these "List of years in xxxx" articles go all the way back to the 1600s? Please comment at Talk:List of years in Bulgaria. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 18:38, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

Are lists copied from categories acceptable?
I believe that such list needs to be structured. An alphabetic copy doesn't help.

List of Memon people

 * The list is unstructured and unsourced.
 * There is a parallel category Category:Memon people. Do we need the same information in two forms?

Xx236 (talk) 08:04, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
 * See WP:NOTDUP. postdlf (talk) 18:23, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

List of palaces in Pakistan

 * The list is unstructured and unsourced.
 * There exists Category:Palaces in Pakistan.Xx236 (talk) 08:07, 19 September 2018 (UTC)


 * I agree with User:Postdlf, who points to NOTDUP, a section within wp:CLN, which is positive about having lists. Pretty much (not always), wherever there is a category, a list can be created.  A list can include sources, photos, coordinates of places if any, additional information that can't be shown in a category.  Sure, the List of palaces in Pakistan could be much improved, e.g. by drawing some information from each of the corresponding articles, e.g. perhaps the coordinates which could then be seen in a GeoGroup link.  It could be tagged for improvement.
 * I don't agree that these list-articles are unsourced: there is sourcing in the linked articles which documents that the people are Memon and that the palaces are Pakistani.  We don't have to duplicate sourcing for non-controversial info that is in list-articles, where links to get more information are obvious.
 * However I do agree that one adds value by structuring information better in a list-article. E.g. for List of fire stations which I am working on currently, I started by copying in contents of categories.  Then I have done a lot of re-organizing by geographic areas.  And I have one source for a lot of redlinks.  It is already pretty good, I think.  But it would be improved if I could add more info of some different kind, e.g. dates of construction, and all the individual places' photos, in a big table.  Have to start somewhere though. :) --Doncram (talk) 06:44, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

Opinions needed
I created the List of music museums and soon afterwards it became under attack. Someone wanted to have it deleted and argues now that the list could not contain museums that have no article on Wikipedia. Two other people claim that all museums on the list should be sourced. One of them has yet tried to erase part of the list twice (infringing WP:LISTN) and the other one started an edit war on it. At AfD (the list survived there) and the talk page, some people disagree with these opponents. Nevertheless these people assume as they have reached consensus, and the aren't susceptible for arguments. Although I have been sourcing the rest of the list now, I still feel insecure what their next step will be. This is not my home wiki and I have never experienced so much opposition against such a good portion of work. I would like to ask you people to put the page on the watchlist and discuss on the talk page too and to share your knowledge of Wikipedia lists on Talk:List of music museums. In my view I have done more than could have been expected from me, according to WP:LISTN. Ymnes (talk) 12:17, 13 October 2018 (UTC)