Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Maps/Archive 2

UN maps
The maps from the UN are all copyrighted, not free. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zeimusu (talk • contribs) 14:39, 5 February 2005

Map Style
I'm really confused by all the map talk, etc. that I see. There seems to be no one taking charge, organizing votes, etc. on how the maps should look. It might be that wikipedia wants to have a few different map styles, but currently there is hardly any consistency whatsoever.

There should be some sort of general election, with many mock-ups made of different types of maps for different needs, and a discussion of map size (it should be somewhat standardized -- maybe big format that gets scaled down by mediawiki?), and there should be some consensus reached on how thick lines should be, how big city dots should be in diffent contexts, what the colors should be, etc. Wikipedia needs at least nominally standardized map guidelines so that new map creators don't waste time and energy making maps that will end up superseded in a few months.

If mediawiki gets around to some other standards, at some point, that'd be great, but first things first, we should figure out a common vector format (svg is maybe fine, I generally use illustrator so I don't know exactly), and start sharing resources to a central repository. If we could get map data (just borders even), from a database, all from the same map projection, etc. that would be wonderful, but style decisions can be made now, and then applied to whatever data comes along.

The country localizers are pretty much standardized now, it seems. I like the subdued grey of these maps, and their simplicity. But is that the style that should stick? and if not, what style should replace it?

Anyway, this is somewhat a rant, but I'd be willing to help out once such a project gets underway. While Wikipedia should encourage random additions by all users, having a set format would save cartographers' time, and help out the reader.

--Jacobolus 06:23, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

There should probably be a list of things to consider:
 * How big should png maps be? How big should svg maps be saved if they are to be used?
 * What size (if maps are saved in large resolution), should localization, etc. maps be resized to?
 * On many country province/state/etc. maps there are numbers. Do we want to have numbered maps? and how big should the numbers be?
 * What colors should maps have. There are suggestions above, but there don't seem to be many maps using them.  Let's have a vote
 * What kinds of text labels should maps have (if any)?
 * What font?
 * What text size?
 * What color text?
 * What line widths should maps use?
 * Should maps be antialiased? If so how many colors should be in png color palette?
 * Should maps have two scales? Like localizer plus detail? If so should style change for the two parts? How so?

If a guideline could be set up, and then adapted to specific types of maps (battle maps with arrows, civilization maps showing spread of civ, possibly with modern borders shown as well, etc.), it would greatly enhance wikipedia.

Just my 2¢ --Jacobolus 06:23, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Wikiatlas
A compleate Wikiatlas would surely be a great resource, is there any reason why we couldn't have one? Would it be to ambishous? I have to admit I don't really understand how you are creating copyright free maps at all, if you take a copyrighted map and copy it/redraw it using its messurements (I take it thats what your doing?) does that mean you have created new map or have you ripped off information from old one? Sorry for my ignorance.--JK the unwise 11:03, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)PS: Congrat's on your map's they look v. good

I really like the idea behind a Wikiatlas but I think the issue at hand would be to make consistent maps for Wikipedia. I have seen lots of request on talk pages for them. Further, if you are using software tools to draw a map and you either purchase data or obtain free data then you are creating original content. If you photocopy a map or alter an existing digital map image then you are possibly violating a copyright. Wikipedian(s) could legally create basemaps and set up layers as templates to make maps styles consistent then map creators could prepare unlimited maps as long as the templates were given to public domain. The only caution would be for map creators to check their data for any restrictions on their use.

Also, us map people should try to locate quality public domain maps for entry into the commons and pedia. Count me in on any future atlas project!!! --Waypoints

Topographic mapping
I've been experimenting with topographic/bathymetric maps of ocean areas. The one I've done so far is for Indian Ocean; see the image on the Commons. I'm planning to do maps for the rest of the oceans shortly, but I thought I'd solicit some comments first. The projection of this map is a little off, making it look sort of stretched along the north-south axis; I'll fix this when I next get to the computer that has the software I need. Any other suggestions? Also, if anyone has any requests/suggestions for other regions/articles that could use a similar map, let me know. The source data has a resolution of about one kilometer, so this is for large areas only, at least several hundred kilometers across. CDC  (talk)  17:53, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

House style maps?
There is something of a revert war going on at Trinidad and Tobago, Panama, Guyana (and perhaps elsewhere) with regards to new maps made by User:Kelisi to replace the CIA maps. User: Jooler insists that the CIA maps are: "official or de facto house style" and that: "Any changes to the current status...should be discussed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Maps". I disagreed with the assertion that there was any such thing as a "house style" and am of the opinion that the CIA maps were used only as placeholders. A brief glance at this page suggests that I am right, but to avoid/defuse this edit war, I thought that I should post these question here: Thanks. Guettarda 17:25, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * is there any such thing as a "house style" map?
 * is there any reason why CIA maps should be retained when more informative maps are available?
 * I think the real reason nobody likes those maps has nothing to do with whether CIA maps are "house style" but rather the replacement maps are unbelieveably unprofessional looking (gigantic pixels, decorative fonts, complete lack of anti-aliasing, etc.). I think the "house style" is simply a map which is professional looking and reliable looking. "Informative" doesn't mean anything if the map looks like it was created by someone who doesn't know how to make maps. --Fastfission 03:54, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

No, there is no "house style" when it comes to maps. I think the CIA maps should only be retained until better alternatives are available. I've left a lengthier response at Talk:Panama. -- Wapcaplet 05:33, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Map request
A new user uploaded the rather nice but not public domain image at Image:Ottoman1.jpg. It is a wonderful map of the Ottoman Empire, something we apparently lack on here. Could somebody re-create its information with one of our free map templates? It doesn't look like it would be a terribly difficult job, relatively speaking (I would do it myself except I am out of town from my main computer and my mouse. I think my fingers would lock up if I tried to do this on my laptop's trackpad!). I think it would be a wonderful addition. --Fastfission 03:47, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Help needed to find latitude/longitude of some UK towns
Hi, I am in the process of adding a map showing the location of every town in a subcategory of Category:Towns_in_England (and intend to then move on to Scottish/Welsh towns). I've had trouble finding the coordinates of some towns. Please could you take a look at User:Lupin/coords and help me to fill in the blanks? Many thanks. Lupin 14:46, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Mapping standards
First, I think you guys have made a great start with the colors and the line styles. I would like to suggest adopting a common mapping standard or combining aspects of different mapping standards. The USGS and USDA Forest service have very detailed mapping symbolization standards for large scale and small scale topographic maps that I think certain general aspects can be applied to the types of maps that wikipedia needs. This includes a standard symbol set for roads, buildings, etc. and standard palettes. Here (pdf) are some examples. The boundaries and roads are probably the most relevant. NRCS also has some symbolization standards that may be useful. The standards are generally geared for 1:24000 scale maps, which are pretty detailed, but I think we can glean what we need to make appropriate maps (color,scale,projection,etc) for wikipedia. The Philippines maps are awesome, but I think the less flashy and basic that the maps are, the better. Once I gather all the info, I can generate some examples to show you guys and get your input. I'll try to do these with free software and data and let you know how that goes. Docoga 03:53, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I've gathered alot of info and I think I have a pretty comprehensive outline for what needs to be considered for wikipedia maps, some of which has been covered on the project and talk page. I will try to systematically go throught the outline to make suggestions in new sections on this talk page.
 * Cartographic conventions
 * Types of maps
 * Units
 * Map border
 * Legends
 * Scale
 * Projection
 * Symbology
 * Typesetting
 * Color palettes
 * Temporal scale
 * Citations
 * Geographic data sources
 * Wiki considerations


 * I will begin to fill this out using the following sources:
 * Natural Resources Canada Cartographic Standards and Specifications
 * Natural Resources Canada The Atlas of Canada
 * USGS Primary Series Quadrangle Map Standards (pdf)
 * USGS Digital Cartographic Standard for Geologic Map Symbolization (pdf)
 * MacEachren, A.M., 1995. How Maps Work. Guilford Press. ISBN 0898625890
 * Please give comments or suggestions. --Docoga 06:37, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for helping to pull everything together. I never really stepped back and considered just how many notation conventions we were dealing with; my original hope was simply to get our maps to look consistent.

I think some of these factors should not be part of any Wikipedia map standards; obviously, map designers should be free to choose the scale and projection that best suits their map. I would be in favor recommending that all map authors include scale and projection data on the map's image description page, but aside from that I don't see what this WikiProject might have to say on the subject.

I'm looking forward to seeing your developments :-) -- Wapcaplet 17:48, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Wapcaplet for your input. I agree that the designer should have pretty much total control of the map design (ie projections). It is almost as much an art as a science. But I think that we can make suggestions for better design style and guide the designer in their choices.

I thought that I would start with some Wiki considerations. These would be things to keep in mind for the initial planning of any map design.


 * The map should be suited to the needs of its users.
 * The map should be easy to use.
 * The map should be accurate, presenting information without error, distortions, or misrepresentation.
 * The language of the map should relate to the elements or qualities represented.
 * The map should be clear, legible, and attractive.
 * Maps should have harmony within themselves. An ugly map, with crude colors, careless line work, and disagreeable, poorly arranged lettering may be as accurate as a beautiful map, but it is less likely to inspire confidence.
 * Cite and license the map image appropriately.
 * The file format should be PNG.
 * The color depth of the image should not exceed 8 bits per pixel. ie. pixel values range from 0 to 255.
 * The size of the image should not exceed 800 x 800 pixels.
 * The image should not be larger than 400 x 400 pixels within the main article.
 * Unusually shaped features may require larger sizes and should be sized appropriately.
 * If a lack of detail due to size is an issue, the layout or content of the map should be reconsidered.
 * If providing a base image to the library, provide the image at its original resolution, but not exceeding 1280 x 1280 pixels.

Let me know if I'm off base on any of the size considerations. I think that there should be some standard for size. I've run across many images in general that are way bigger than necessary.--Docoga 04:34, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

language maps
hi. although it seems that most of the emphasis here is on geographic material, i am interested in linguistic maps. i have created a few maps before i knew the existence of this project. i submit to the people involved here the maps i have created in hopes that we can hear some good suggestions/improvements to my work so far. this is my first time to make a map and all the first time to use Gimp, so i am sure that they can be improved. i have created maps of 2 types: (1) linguistic map of an entire continent with different colors for each (unrelated) language family, (2) map showing the distribution of a single language on its continent (in two colors).

in my linguistic map of North America i found it a bit challenging to find enough significantly different colors to adequately show the different language families. i am a little dissatisfied with my borders of somewhat uneven width.

the maps:
 * North American languages
 * Algic
 * Muskogean
 * Na-Dene
 * Salishan

so any comments? questions? thank you very much. &mdash; ishwar  (S PEAK )  16:35, 2005 May 23 (UTC)

Nice maps! Looking at their Wikimedia commons description page, I can see that you have done your research on these. I very much like the simplicity of the last four maps; even at small resolutions, these are a great addition to their respective articles. The complete map of N. American languages is a little bit jarring, though. I think you're right that the border widths are partly to blame; all your maps would be improved by a thicker continent border, and thinner borders on the language distributions.

It is rather difficult to distinguish the colors in the fully-colored map. Perhaps you could use a wider range of lightness--include some pastel shades in addition to the darker shades you already have. A simple pattern, instead of solid color, might also help, at least in the larger regions where a pattern would be easily recognized, and correctly associated with the list to the left. This would let you expand the number of different "colors" you can show at once, while (hopefully) making them easier to identify. Then again, maybe it would look awful :-) I haven't tried it, and there's always the chance that your software doesn't support it anyway.

Another improvement, I think, would be if you could just "rough up" the edges of the language regions. Some of them look too straight and geometric to be believable; if you just make them a tiny bit wiggly, I think they'll better represent the actual fuzziness and gradual transition from region to region.

It's great to see someone working on maps like this. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the mapping standards under discussion above!

By the way, what software do you use to create these? -- Wapcaplet 17:34, 23 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Hi. Thank you for your comments. I will try to implement them. I am using The Gimp to create the map. I just traced the print-version of the map & went from there. So, I see that The Gimp has a function to fill in colors with patterns. I am not so good at figuring out the best range of colors, but I will try to use some lighter colors. I recently lightened the entire N. Amer. map & added changed 2 colors to have patterns. I guess that there is some automatic way to thin out the borders, but I will have to figure that out. Roughing up the edges may be a good idea&mdash;I am just following Mithun's borders right now. I guess that what you might most "jarring" are the crazy colors? I will think about the map standard discussion above & if I think of anything I will post. But as this is my first time to create maps or use The Gimp, I cannot guarantee how valuable my contributions will be. Thanks again. peace &mdash; ishwar   (SPEAK)  22:24, 2005 May 27 (UTC)

Re: the Salishan/Na-Dene maps. There's a Na-Dene blotch in southern British Columbia, an island within the Salish "sea" around there, which represents the Stuwix, aka the Nicola Athapaskans. But they went extinct linguistically a century ago, and were not a dominant population but adopted into the area by the larger Nicola/Sce'emx and Okanagan/Syilx, into whom they became intermarried and absorbed; only a few placenames remain of their language; I've always wondered on linguistic maps, or in language articles, how to represent such a situation; should these guys maybe have a striped blotch or other indication that this isolated pocket was never really territorial; rather one community among three living alongside each other, and also long extinct?Skookum1 17:10, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

NW Sprachbund map
Map of Pacific NW Sprachbund language divisions Had this in my computer's storage swamps; not sure of copyright status but it was in an academic paper; useful for anyone wanting to do a more detailed language map for this complicated (very complicated) linguistic region.Skookum1 17:15, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Questions
I've been making subnational entity maps for a few months, and I wanted to ask some questions. Here is some of my work: Image:Algeria provinces.png, Image:Azerbaijan districts numbered.png, and Image:Bolivia departments named.png.

Now, as you can clearly see, my inspiration was Morwen and her wonderful maps of the British Isles. I borrowed her coloring scheme. However, I have some questions I'd love answered:

1) What DO y'all think of the colors? I don't think they made the standard draft here. 2) Which is better, my traced maps or her vector maps? Her maps look neat, but mine have a place too I think. I dunno; I want comments :) (Example of her work: Image:EnglandCountiesCere.png 3) How should they be ordered? Thus far, all my numbered maps have been ordered in alphabetical order, but this can be problematic, since some languages transliterate differently, among other usability issues. I'm thinking, maybe I should switch to a pure geographic north-south order, like Japan is, or if that's not reasonable (like in a nation like Azerbaijan), go with ISO order?

I have a few maps ready to upload (including one of Bermuda, possibly the most useless map ever made :)) and I wanted to hear ideas from the rest of the mapping community. Absent any comment, I think I'll switch all my maps to geographic/ISO. --Golbez 18:13, May 23, 2005 (UTC)

Another feedback request
Here's yet another map humbly submitted for comment: Image:Tecumseh's War.png. I've generally tried to follow the recommended color scheme. My weakness is a desire to cram endless amounts of information onto the map. Let me know what you think. --Kevin Myers 02:24, May 24, 2005 (UTC)
 * Wow. That is absolutely amazing. I think I shall nominate it for FPC. :) really, I can't see any problem with putting more info on it, as long as it doesn't get too cluttered (and it's not) and the info is relevant. As long as it sticks to being relevant to the war, it should be great. --Golbez 18:21, May 24, 2005 (UTC)

Maps on demand
I don't see this having been suggested before: would it be possible to reduce effort and promote consistency by creating locator maps on the fly? Look at Category:GBdot. Each of these could be generated by the appopriate coding given just the base map, lat/long, and a size and color for the dot. You could pack these parameters into a URL and something executable could stream a PNG file in return.

I realize it's a coding project as opposed to an uploading project, and disk space is cheap, but once the coding is done it would surely be a faster way to generate locators. David Brooks 17:03, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * With a little more reading I realize this is far from a new idea. As you were. David Brooks 17:28, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Locator maps for rivers
Hello, I'm new here. I was thinking of starting a project of making locator maps for some of the rivers. This map would go with Potomac River. Any comments? Does it work without labels? Should I add more stuff to give it more context or keep it simple? - Karl 16:09, 2 August 2005
 * Works fine without labels. Higher resolution would be better, though.  Possibly other bodies of water in the pictured area (in a very light blue, so they can be distinguished from the main river).  Make "up" be North (it looks like NNE to me). dbenbenn | talk 00:31, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Maps for Japanese cities
I was always bothered by the flashy colors of the current maps, so I decided to try modifying one using this project's guidelines. Should I go with this and begin modifying these? I would like some feedback, especially about the highlighted area (in this case Sendai).

-Nameneko 09:06, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Nameneko, this is something that's been bothering me for a while, and I've been tossing around the idea of doing the Sendai map like what you're doing right now. What stopped me is the fact that the license status of the maps on the ja.wikipedia are rather ambiguous - they should be GFDL, but a lot of the maps have no license declaration (possibly because the originals were uploaded when a license declaration was not required on the ja.Wikipedia). The original author of the maps has not answered my questions for several months. That said, I'm getting tired of the flashy-color maps, so I would go on with the new colors and worry about the license status later. I really would like nice maps on the Japanese municipality articles.

Some suggestions:
 * I think the color scheme on this version the most.  I think you're using darker colors for Sendai City on the current version to indicate the ward boundaries.  Since only a handful of large cities in Japan are divided into wards, I would like to use the light-colored version for the main map, and create a separate, multi-colored map that indicates the different wards (which will only be necessary for the designated cities).
 * Using two maps in different scales might be even better. One large-scale map of Japan that shows where Miyagi prefecture is, and the current map, which shows where Sendai is in Japan.  The idea is to have something like the following map, because most people will have no idea where each prefectures are.  I know I'm asking a lot on this one, so I'm not going to aggressively push for it, though.

These are just suggestions, so don't feel like you absolutely have to listen to me - I love the idea of improving the Japanese maps, so please go on with it! Atsi Otani 06:20, 23 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I redid a few things. Look at the caption for most of the information.  As for the two-map thing, I still have a bit more work to do on the final Japan map, and I'm not sure how well that will work.


 * -Nameneko 04:57, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Asking to "sign" a letter
Hello, since you are interested in maps I thought hat you might support our letter to Centre for Cartography, Vilnius University. We are asking to release their maps found at www.balticdata.info under GFDL licence so they could be used in articles about Lithuania. So far we got 14 people to "sign" it. The draft in very very rough English is available at user:Renata3/letter. If you decide to support it, I'll need just your first and last names together with your user name. You can leave it on my talk page or send it via email: just attach @gmail.com to my user name. Thanks so much! Renata3 22:15, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Copyright
I'd like to make some maps for New Zealand but I am suspect about copyright. According to copyright there's a legal concept called the idea-expression divide. This means that I can reproduce the idea that a map conveys but not the particular expression: the map itself.

Does this mean I can copy a map by tracing? Or by entering co-ordinates into a computer program? Or by writing down a list of places that are inside/outside a boundary and just drawing a boundary between them?

Is there a place where this has been discussed already?

Ben Arnold 04:55, 9 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I have heard that map-makers include intentional errors in their maps as a means of exposing such plaigerism. (sp). Coordinantes from multiple maps would seem fair, particularly if the maps are themselves representations of public records. (the location of cities, their borders, streets, and building permits are all public records in the US and surely in other countries as well.) (unsigned - who needs to be baiting the public-record IP nazis? read building code publishers).

--C Hawke 17:02, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

For the UK I can tell you that Ordnance Survey (OS), who still produce a large amount of the UK maps, consider tracing over their maps as "derived from" and therefore subject to their copyright. You have to be very careful in the UK to find a map source that isn't "contaminated" with OS data. They will take action against violators. The AA had to pay £10 Million in an out of court settlement a few years back, so any UK mappers please be careful.

Subdivision border data for GMT
Hi, does anybody know where I can find free border data of national subdivisions (states, provinces, etc.) for use in GMT? Fragwürdig 21:30, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Propose Google Map - wiki interface
All this map discussion is fine for people who happen to have expensive GIS software at their ready disposal. I would suggest that providing an interfac to google maps which would allow an otherwise unendowed editor to frame region, click on a few markers and provide wikitext to populate the pop-ups would have an immeasurable effect on increasing the level of communication and coooperation with respect to the content of individual maps.

The interface is quite doable as I have already proven at. Google maps has released the api under conditions which are qute favorable to the Wikipedia project, and the raw data (coordinants and their commentary) would remain in the public domain regardless of future decisions by google. Thus I would propose and argue that a (technical) project, to which I would contribute, be undertaken to permit the google object to be rendered on a wikipage, with a corrolary and editable object to be rendered on the edit pages thereof with a convention established to store geo-coords in the wiki database. Is there any interest? Benjamin Gatti

Map requests template/category
Unsure if there existed one for such purpose already, but I wrote Template:Mapit for use with Category:Wikipedia map requests. Nuf said. -St|eve 17:46, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Creating new maps from scratch
Hi, I'm just dropping in to see if someone might be able to give me some advice. My friend was involved with the mapping of Atauro Island in East Timor for the first time recently, so she has some maps that she has made totally herself. I want to help her make the best possible map (for the wikimedia community) so how should I advise her? Please leave me any comments on my Talk page. Thanks, pfctdayelise 02:23, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Hey
Hey, I was wondering where I could get some assistance with gaining some knowledge with Arcview 9. karmafist 09:21, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Map request
Any chance we can get a map of the country of South Africa so that we can use it in the templates used in WikiProject Protected areas...it would be best if it would be the same in colors and other parameters as the one of the U.S. shown here and we have another one that meets this standardization already for Australia. Thanks for your help.--MONGO 02:47, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Perry-Castañeda template?
I seem to remember there being a template with which to tag images from the Perry-Castañeda Library's map collection. Anyone else remember which one this is, or did I imagine it? -- Gyrofrog (talk) 04:35, 8 December 2005 (UTC)


 * PD-PCL.--Patrick 09:56, 8 December 2005 (UTC)


 * And .--Patrick 10:04, 8 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Thank you! -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:05, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Map request - USoGA
I don't know how active this WikiProject currently is, but I'm in dire need of a good map for United States of Greater Austria. Thanks! Nightstallion ✉ 23:47, 22 December 2005 (UTC)