Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Martial arts/archive 17

classification renames
See talk:Paralympic powerlifting classification and talk:Disability judo classification for the discussions -- 65.92.181.190 (talk) 06:36, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Paralympic powerlifting classification → Powerlifting classification
 * Disability judo classification → Judo classification


 * The above failed, but there is a new proposal to move the judo one to Disability classification in judo here. --Stfg (talk) 15:14, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Related requested move
The usage of Arrows is under discussion, see Talk:Arrows, where the page is suggested to be renamed to Arrows (F1) so that it can be redirected to Arrow as the plural form. -- 65.92.181.190 (talk) 13:37, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Help at Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Liu Wanchuan ?
I'm an AFC reviewer and we have a draft that could use some input from an expert. Would someone mind taking a glance at Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Liu Wanchuan? It's AFC so you can leave a comment directly at the top of the draft by prefacing it with the "afc comment" template. Thanks for any help for that new editor. MatthewVanitas (talk) 15:21, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Miko Kung Fu
Miko Kung Fu has just been created but I don't believe it meets WP:GNG, or any guidelines specific to your project? Shawn in Montreal (talk) 17:37, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Classification to Disability Classification redirect
has been nominated for deletion, please see WP:RFD. -- 65.92.181.190 (talk) 07:13, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Source
Came upon this extremely interesting new source, "Our Hands Evolved for Punching, Not Just Dexterity". Newswise, 12/13/2012, (Embargo expired: 12/19/2012). Retrieved 12/20/2012. It's about some research at the University of Utah about the effect of human hand anatomy on striking, with some comparisons to the anatomy of Gorillas. Specifically it details scientifically the advantages of what I would describe as the 'standard' karate (and similar arts) fist. " ... second and third experiments found that buttressing provided by the human fist increased the stiffness of the knuckle joint fourfold (or reduced flexing fourfold), and also doubled the ability of the fingers to transmit punching force ... ". Seems to provide a good reference for the reasons behind use of that type of fist. - 220  of  Borg 03:08, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

RfC on the use of flag icons for sportspeople
An RfC discussion about the MOS:FLAG restriction on the use of flag icons for sportspeople has been opened at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Icons. We invite all interested participants to provide their opinion here. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:49, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Ansan (karate)
I don't know much about karate kata, but this article doesn't seem to show notability or even have much in the way of facts. I was hoping someone with more knowledge could redirect/merge this into Karate kata. I don't think it deserves a separate article in its current form. Thank you. Jakejr (talk) 01:48, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd tend to agree. Niteshift36 (talk) 13:48, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Article for Deletion
FYI there's an AfD vote currently going on for Olympic Judoka Levan Razmadze here.
 * Please sign your posts by using 4 tildes. Actually, he did not compete in the Olympics, he was an alternate for the Georgian team. Papaursa (talk) 01:56, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Kyle Watson
There's a deletion discussion for this person going on at Articles for deletion/Kyle Watson. He's an MMA fighter, but some have claimed he's notable via WP:MANOTE because of a third place finish in the purple belt division at an IBJJF tournament. One editor wrote me to say that MANOTE doesn't specify "black belt" so Watson meets the criteria. I had said it was obvious to any martial artist that nothing below a black belt could be considered as competing at the highest level (as specified by WP:NSPORT) and that notability can't be achieved by beating other intermediate level students. Should MANOTE be modified somehow to make this clear or am I off base in my assumptions? Papaursa (talk) 01:56, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * You can see my comments at the AfD discussion or at User talk:Luchuslu. Papaursa (talk) 02:13, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * That discussion is already closed, but I agree with you. In the past couple of months there's been a number of articles on martial artists winning junior championships.  I'm going to add something to MANOTE that stipulates competition must be as an adult black belt (WP:BOLD).  If anyone objects, we can discuss it here.  I hope someone will at least check what I write. Mdtemp (talk) 17:43, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that; I concur. I've also added "1st dan equivalent or higher rank" for (hopefully) even more clarity; not all systems use black belts for higher ranks, and while some do award dan ranks to children, every major system I can think of (just now) does not do this. Janggeom (talk) 07:48, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your support. It's hard when people are convinced they know about martial arts when, in reality, they don't know the difference between "dim mak" and "dim sum".  Janggeom, unfortunately I know of a number of schools that award black belt degrees/dans to children. Papaursa (talk) 22:39, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * To clarify what I wrote above, as it seems a little unclear to me upon re-reading just now, I can't think of any major rank systems that award dan ranks to children—but there are certainly major rank systems that award black belt ranks to children (e.g., Kukkiwon poom ranks). How much that is or isn't appropriate will really depend on the philosophy and requirements underlying the rank ... and indeed, that could go for the dan ranks, too. But I think most here would agree that there is a very significant difference between notability of black belt ranks for children and notability of black belt ranks for adults. An analogy that comes to mind is high school (secondary school) certificates or diplomas—fine and worthy achievements in themselves, but not really significant in the context of university degrees at an international level. Janggeom (talk) 05:53, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Kickboxing notability criteria update
I am hoping to update the notability criteria for kickboxers and kickboxing events since AfD discussions have shown the existing proposal to be much different from WP consensus. The discussion is at WT:KICK and all opinions and suggestions are welcome. I am putting this notice here because kickboxing falls under the martial arts project. Papaursa (talk) 23:11, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

WP:KIS label
Your WP:Keep It Simple label, User label WPMartial Arts is in danger of being deleted. See (Templates for discussion/Log/2013 February 6.) If you still want it, you may wish to move it to a project subpage. Also see user label for technical details. Feel free to review my planning page, User:PC-XT/KIS, and talk there if you have questions. PC-XT (talk) 23:49, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Tenjin Shinyō-ryū
Greetings! I have recently relisted a requested move discussion at Talk:Tenjin_Shinyō-ryū, regarding a page relating to this WikiProject. Discussion and opinions are invited. Thanks,  Tyrol5   [Talk]  00:43, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Portal:Sports is up for featured portal consideration
This is a courtesy message to inform the members of this project that I have nominated Portal:Sports for featured portal status. The discussion is at Wikipedia:Featured portal candidates/Portal:Sports. The featured portal criteria are at Featured portal criteria. Please feel free to weigh in.  S ven M anguard  Wha?  18:35, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Israeli martial arts
I was just looking at the World Muaythai Council article and noticed it was in Category:Israeli martial arts. I went to that page and found virtually every martial art is listed there. Is there an easy way to correct that? Papaursa (talk) 04:20, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Interestingly the Category is not listed in those articles. It seems to be some sort of global command.Peter Rehse (talk) 11:56, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Fixed. The problem was with a link added to Martial arts the other day. It may take a little while for the change to be reflected on the category page. - Eureka Lott 13:50, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

"Wu Dang"
The usage of is up for discussion, see Talk:Wu Dang (film) -- 70.24.250.103 (talk) 06:18, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Marcelo Garcia
Sometimes I'm depressed about the lack of reliable sources in articles related to martial arts. Although Marcelo Garcia is one of the most famous of grapplers, I cannot even verify his year of birth. It was changed from 1982 to 1983. Which of them is the true year of birth?--Razionale (talk) 14:45, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I couldn't find a definitive answer. My quick online search found birthdates of 1/1/82, 1/17/82, and 1983 given for him.  I'm wondering if Garcia is being deliberately vague--I see Sherdog shows he lost his only MMA fight but doesn't have a birth date for him at all.  You're right about the difficulty of finding reliable sources for MA articles.  Since WP is about verifiability, not truth, I'd say just make sure the birthday given is sourced. Papaursa (talk) 19:04, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * His birthday is definitely 1/17, a day before his trainer Fabio Gurgel , but I remain unsure about the year. I've also been thinking about using the twitter links as sources, no doubt primary ones but no doubt more trustworthy than any other source because they definitely get their birthdays right.--Razionale (talk) 21:29, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd go with 1983 since that's what his bio at bjjheroes.com (http://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighters/marcelo-garcia-fighter-profile} gives. Papaursa (talk) 22:10, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
 * If there is doubt about the year of birth, you could just list both and note that the sources vary (e.g., see Masatoshi Nakayama). Just a thought. Janggeom (talk) 05:58, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Jutte
Jutte has been requested to be renamed, see Talk:Jutte -- 70.24.250.103 (talk) 22:59, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

File:Wang Zi Ping2.jpg
File:Wang Zi Ping2.jpg has been nominated for deletion -- 70.24.250.103 (talk) 01:04, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Japanese
Some people have Japanese culture — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.10.184.195 (talk) 18:46, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Bugei Ryūha Daijiten
Can anybody comment on the notability of Bugei Ryūha Daijiten? The only sources I found appear to be primary.Mdtemp (talk) 20:18, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The article does seem to lack independent sources, but I have no idea about the notability of the book. Papaursa (talk) 18:55, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Iga-ryu ninja
There are a number of articles about these ninja on Wikipedia, but most of them are unsourced (or nearly so). In particular I'm looking at Iga-ryū Ninja Museum, Iga-ryū, and The uprising in the Iga Ninja. I was thinking they could all be redirected to the Iga Province article, but I'd like some other opinions.Mdtemp (talk) 20:25, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That makes sense to me, but you should know I tried to redirect The uprising in the Iga Ninja (now known as Uprising of the Iga Ninja) to Iga Province and it was reverted by the author. It's not a battle I wanted to fight, but feel free to try.  You might consider posting a query to the WikiProject Japan talk page. Papaursa (talk) 18:52, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I think I'll do that.Mdtemp (talk) 20:41, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * A potential issue I have with the proposed redirect is that while I agree that there's a lot of overlap at the moment between the articles on Iga-ryū and the uprising with the article on the province, they're both notable subjects in their own right. I also think that the poor state of the Iga province article might be making the topics seem more similar than they are. The province existed for over a thousand years but the history section doesn't even touch on the vast majority of that. Cckerberos (talk) 10:36, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Another possibility you could consider is merging the 3 articles originally mentioned into their own article, one that is separate from the Iga Province article. Papaursa (talk) 17:18, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

New sports related IRC channel.
There is now an WP:IRC channel for collaboration between editors in various sports WikiProjects. It's located at. Thanks Secret account 03:25, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Grandmaster (martial arts)
Following a page populating exercise by a new user I noticed that the Grandmaster article really isn't about one title but generally ranking in the martial arts. I propose a name change followed by a bit of a re-write to Martial arts titles.Peter Rehse (talk) 14:39, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Atemi Ju-Jitsu
Everyone, what is your thoughts on Atemi Ju-Jitsu? I am not convinced that this style is notable enough. I am of the understanding their lineage is in question (I have seen this school of Jujitsu brought up on other sites). Further, their references dont add up and its not sourced. MartialArtsLEO (talk) 22:54, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not seeing much significant independent coverage of this art. Brief mentions or being lumped in with other French jujitsu organizations doesn't show much to me.  Of course, I have to rely on Google translate for the French sources.Mdtemp (talk) 17:54, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Muay Thai article attacks
The Muay Thai article is experiencing multiple attacks, some in the form of section blanking, some in the form of self promotion. I'd like to propose that someone with rollback User rights revert the article to a stable previous version and Semi-protect the article to deflect future vandalism. Thanks! — Jdcollins13 (talk) 16:42, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I've reverted the article to what appears to me to be the last good version. Semi-protection is unlikely to be granted if requested at WP:RPP since there isn't frequent enough vandalism, at least I don't see it.  I'll also note that nearly the entire article lacks references.  The only citations are in the lead, which usually shouldn't contain references since it should be a rehash of referenced material in the body of the article.  Someone who is familiar with the topic area and where sources can be found may want to give some attention to the article.  --TreyGeek (talk) 17:11, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Notable students listed in the infobox
Are students listed in the 'Notable students' parameter in the 'Infobox martial artist' intended to be only current or both current and former students? Buddy23Lee (talk) 21:10, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Current or former it doesn't matter - they should have their own article. Also should not be more than 2 or 3 of the most important.Peter Rehse (talk) 21:18, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

John Jarvis (karateka)
This article needs some independent sources, but my real question is whether or not completing the 100 man kumite over two days is sufficient to show notability. I think it's a pretty impressive thing, but I don't know how it fits into WP:MANOTE. I also wish there was some newspaper or magazine coverage of it.Mdtemp (talk) 17:58, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree the 100 man kumite is an achievement, but these multiple (25+) man kumites are not as rare as some would have you believe. For one thing, the focus is almost always Kyokushin karate (thanks to Oyama), but I've seen these done in other styles or under different rules.  For example, the fighting rules may differ or the opponents have be rotated instead of all being unique or the person being tested has been clearly superior in skill to any of his opponents.  Since he did it over 2 days, I'd be inclined to say he did the 50 man kumite twice, but even Kyokushin has occasionally changed their criteria.  For right now I'll let others comment on the notability issue, but it might be worth looking at the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Martial arts/archive 16. Papaursa (talk) 22:40, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Snake Kung Fu
Please help investigate copyright issues with recently deleted Snake Kung Fu page (I recreated a single-sentence stub just to save redirects targeted for deletion). See User talk:Jimfbleak. Staszek Lem (talk) 19:51, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Whoever wants to rewrite the page, please notice that the text of the article both metastased all over the internets, and infested virtual dead trees via wikibooks. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:11, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I would hope a decent article could be made on this topic, but this one does not meet WP:GNG. The 3 sources given are a youtube video, a mention in Kung Fu Panda, and a several line passing mention in Inside Kung Fu magazine. Papaursa (talk) 22:19, 22 May 2013 (UTC)