Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Messianic Judaism/Archive 1

Messianic Judaism Portal
The Messianic Judaism Portal link is dead for now. We need someone who would be interested in seeking its development. A portal can only help our cause. Suggestions are great, but actual work on it would be better! inigmatus 19:11, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * We need a lot more material before we can get that going. Maybe if you invite a few people you know to edit? --In ur base, killing ur dorfs 20:00, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Maybe if we had more material that didn't get VfDed, we could. In the meantime I've been thinking about developing a "Messianic Martyr Barnstar" for those editors whose valid contributions get wiped out by the AntiMJ opposition and their heavy bandwagoning. We may be outnumbered 100 to 1, but we're closer to the truth than the opposition is, and all they have to show for their positions now are just simply unsourced POV statements, VfD nominations, and admin privilage abuse. inigmatus 02:21, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Project directory
Hello. The WikiProject Council has recently updated the WikiProject Council/Directory. This new directory includes a variety of categories and subcategories which will, with luck, potentially draw new members to the projects who are interested in those specific subjects. Please review the directory and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. Also, I note that yours is a comparatively new project. You may be interested in the WikiProject Council/Guide, which has a lot of information regarding project organization from several of the most successful WikiProjects. It is my hope that all the changes to the directory can be finished by the first of next month. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you.

Ummm....Zorkfan ...
...is a sockpuppet. Do we really want that in the membership listing? --In ur base, killing ur dorfs 16:43, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree, it seems Zorkfan has been put on censure according to the MJ history page. Jamie Guinn 02:30, 24 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I'll remove him temporarily until he's back in good standing with the general Wiki community. inigmatus 05:01, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Leaders cleanup
After reading the External links policy I will cleanup the MJ leaders page of the EL pointing to articles that are critical of the controversial leaders. As soon as I create articles on each person I will add quotes from the sources (or to already existing articles on leaders) and then clean up the page to keep it within the guidelines. Is that okay with the other members of the project? Jamie Guinn 02:33, 24 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Feel free to add it to the task list. (I'll add it anyways, but you can remove it when you're done). inigmatus 05:01, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Userbox fixed
Looks a lot better now. -- Elar  a  girl  Talk 04:21, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Isaac Lichtenstein
Added article on Isaac Lichtenstein. It's ready for review. Jamie Guinn 20:23, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Would the other members of this project view the article and the discussion page as this article has been placed up for deletion. Yes, I am the author, no, I am not trying to take it personal, but I am of the view (sorry Elaragirl) that if an article fits within the specific guidelines for an article then it should be kept and every effort should be made and that deletion should be a last resort. It may not be an article nominated for the Front Page of Wiki, but surely it has some redeemable qualities. Jamie Guinn 21:53, 27 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The problem is not that it doesn't have redeemable qualities, but that it's hard to say whether such an article is capable of proving such qualities. Fitting within the guidelines usually means it has to have independant coverage. Sorry if I seem to be harping on this point, but I assure you if a halfway competant deltionist gets their teeth in to MJ they can and will savage the entire project if there is a systemic lack of sourcing. -- Elar  a  girl  Talk 13:58, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Messianic Bureau International
Created Messianic Bureau International article. Ready for review. Jamie Guinn 17:19, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Recent AfDs
Recently our articles have been hit with a slew of AfDs - many of them unfounded. Please make an effort to reason with the submitters, but also be sure to voice your opinion as to why the articles should stay, on their appropriate AfD pages. It's starting to get annoying, but if we make it a point to show their notability, verifiability, and other requested specfics, the AfD will not only be resolved to keep the article, but the article will be improved. This is where the fun begins. inigmatus 01:29, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I have to remind everyone -- without proper, external sourcing almost none of the outlying articles for MJ have a snowballs chance in hell of survival. There are two things working against you here. One, MJ is notoriously insular and cut off from mainstream media in many ways, which limits independant coverage. That parlays, basically, into non-notability in the eyes of some people. Two, some Orthodox Jews dislike this movement. I caution you very strongly to remain utterly civil in such debates, as there has been so much anti-Semetic screed flung at Jewish articles that any attack on them tends to bring down a strong response. You simply have to find independant sources -- or make the article in userspace until you have such sourcing. -- Elar  a  girl  Talk 13:56, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with your assessment Elaragirl. Within a week I have to admit I am extremely discouraged, as I think your are correct about our chances of surviving 'hell'. Sorry RK, I tried to help make a difference here, but it seems the odds are stacked against us. Jamie Guinn 14:32, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


 * This is the beauty of wikipedia. The opposition is more than happy to find holes in the support for an article - which only breeds a better article. I think finding more external sources is a good thing, and I encourage everyone to put forth more sources. Staying civil is absolutely key to survival in some of these disputes. I will be happy to engage in the debates as needed. After all, people thought at one time that a fair and balanced article on Messianic Judaism was impossible... stranger things have happened. I know we can survive. I think it would be very helpful if most of us were familiar with Wikipedia policies, and that is what I have been trying to do for many years. Don't be discouraged. If Messianic Judaism can make it, so can other articles that stem from Messianic Judaism. inigmatus 19:39, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. After all, there are advantages to having a rabid deletionist on your team doing overwatch. (Me!) The main issues are mostly based around the fact that there ARE sources and that these articles ARE good -- both of Jamie's articles were cleanly written, encyclopedic in tone, and solid -- but that those who dislike MJ are going to attack them before they have a chance to grow. If you can, consider making the article up in your userspace (where it's competely safe from attack) while you search for sourcing. -- Elar  a  girl  Talk 20:00, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes Elaragirl you've made an excellent point. I encourage the article draftors to save their version of their new articles in their userspace. I had to do it for Messianic Judaism by working on it from User:Inigmatus/Messianic Judaism revision, and I was able to grow it beyond any reasonable revert, before I pasted it in the old Messianic Judaism article. inigmatus 20:06, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you both, I really need to familiarize myself more with the polices and procedures. Thanks RK for your hardwork and persistance, and I will take into consideration the use of user pages to work on articles instead of just throwing them out there to the wolves, I apologize if by doing so with the three articles that this set us back a bit, and a big thanks to you Elaragirl, it's obvious from your user page that you don't have much vested interest other than the pursuit for good solid articles, I for one appreciate your very unique perspective. Jamie Guinn 01:40, 5 December 2006 (UTC)


 * On a related note, see Template talk:Messianic Judaism for a suggestion. &hArr; ChristTrekker 21:15, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Stepping down as project lead
After much prayer, I am stepping down as project leader at the immediate direction of the Lord himself. I believe I have accomplished what HaShem set me out to do on Wikipedia - that is to redraft Messianic Judaism and stabilize it, to create templates and new articles, and the creation of this project. I am praying that another leader will be led to rise up to the occasion and help Messianic Judaism articles succeed on Wikipedia. I know it can. For now, HaShem has shown me there are more important matters in life that I would be neglecting if I continued in this role as project leader - matters that I need to work on before returning to Wikipedia again (family, and other ministries). I pray that HaShem will raise up a leader or a group of mature individuals who can invest their time, prayers, and energy to taking Wikipedia Messianic Judaism articles to the next level. I will of course not abandon this project altogether, as I do hope to keep checking in from time to time. Pray for me, and pray for HaShem to bring more people, and more leaders into this frontline position for Messianic Judaism. For now, I must be obedient to what I believe HaShem is saying. Shalom! :) inigmatus 23:39, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * arches eyebrow Well, who's next up to be in charge? -- Elar  a  girl  Talk 15:49, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I nominate anyone who arches their eyebrow. :) inigmatus 17:02, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Umm Inigmatus: What's with this hokum about "this frontline position for Messianic Judaism" etc? I thought this was Wikipedia and that Wikipedia is not a battleground! Perhaps, during your intermission (good pun, no?) you'll also have a revelation from up on high that Wikipedia is not a soapbox! Keep us posted on any other special messages Hashem sends you, while here on Earth all the other good Jews wait for the real Jewish Messiah to show up. IZAK 10:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmm, I guess that means that since the real Messiah has already shown up, you're just as soapboxy as Ig? Spare us trolling. If you're unwilling to make a good faith contribution to this project, don't post here. -- Elar  a  girl  Talk 20:50, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Elara, I don't think Izak meant that. I think Izak's point was (if you get past the incivility) that calling Wikipedia a "frontline position for Messianic Judaism" does sound very close to a statement of intention to POV push. I would also express concern about that although some AGF might be in order in which case I would attempt to interpret the statement as saying something like seeing Wikipedia as a good place for people to find accurate neutral info about messianic judaism. That interpretation seems like a bit of a stretch but it is doable. However, it is probably enough of a stretch that Izak is not reasonably obligated by AGF to assume that that is what Ignimatus meant.JoshuaZ 22:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I certainly assume good faith (pun intended) about your leader receiving an "instruction" to concentrate his efforts elsewhere. And I can't see how anyone would necessarily say that someone who is seeking to put forward what he considers to be the religious truth in a NPOV and encyclopedic manner, like we try to do in wikipedia, can be faulted for having a POV which does not necessarily translate into POV content. And, while I myself am not a member of this project, and probably won't join anytime soon (given the 30 or so projects I'm already involved in) if any of you ever think that the comparatively small WikiProject Religion would ever be of use to you, just put a comment on the talk page there and I'll see what we can do. I hope that this departure doesn't too dramatically impair the functioning of the group, and wish you all the best of luck in all of your endeavors. Badbilltucker 22:21, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


 * JoshuaZ, Ig does not POV push. However, he is very religous, and when person events unconnected to Wikipedia force him to spend more time away from Wikipedia, it's natrual for him to attribute this (in his mind view) to the Lord. I think IZAK is often too abrasive (and I'm a good judge of abrasiveness Grr! (personal attacks joo!) and it's very easy to take such a ... um, cavalier tone as mockery or even insult. I try not to find reasons to set AGF aside, since it just gets me in trouble when I do. Badbilltucker, I try to stay to stay away from the religous articles that cover anything related to Christianity, since I know I cannot maintain POV regarding those, so thanks but no thanks. (I assume you were talking to me since JoshuaZ isn't a member of WP:MJ.) -- Elar  a  girl  Talk 22:28, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not gone altogether. I'm just stepping down as project lead. And IZAK, my own comments are my own opinion. I said "frontline" because whenever anyone engages a search engine for Messianic Judaism, the wiki article comes up usually in the first two or three available links. Thus for point of reference, Messianic Judaism is a frontline for reference for anyone searching for information about MJ. I saw that the original article was quite abused, and misinformed, and highly negatively POVed. With the new information, the article has contributed more to being an NPOV role model in Wikipedia, than almost any other article that I'm aware of. If you think it's somehow a "war of words" to engage in an effort to make sure Messianic Judaism is represented NPOV, then I figure it makes sense to consider the page as a frontline for those seeking truly NPOV information about it, rather than the highly negative antimissionary POV it had before. If you disagree, fine, that's your opinion. Please use this talk page to talk about the project, and not about my personal opinions. I have my own talk page if you want to discuss my opinions. Thanks. inigmatus 22:31, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much for that clarification. JoshuaZ 01:59, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I posted this a couple of days ago. Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents  MetsFan76 13:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Is now located here: Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive156 Mathmo Talk 16:41, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Article Guidelines
I think with the recent failure of two articles I authored it may be time to start developing the article guidelines listed in our Goals section. I would like to see any future articles go through a process of peer review by all the active members before posting. This way anything done will have a better 'fighting' chance among the rest of the wiki users. Eleagirl mentioned that we could post prospective articles on user pages for internal development. This sounds like a great idea, although I am not sure how to do this just yet. Jamie Guinn 04:52, 5 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Make a subpage, such as User:Stjamie/subpage, and then edit your article there. When done, move the page to the mainspace using move. (or have someone do it). I'll try to whip up an article guideline. -- Elar  a  girl  Talk 04:57, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Category:Religious leaders
The current organization there is abit muddled, and needs some discussing how to deal with. A general proposal for cleaning it up is posted at Category talk:Religious leaders, and more input would be great. It doesn't address the issue of Religious leaders/religious workers/religious figures, but that is another issue that exists. Badbilltucker 22:06, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia Day Awards
Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 18:36, 29 December 2006 (UTC)