Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Metal/Archive 3

List of doom metal bands
Hi, could someone provide an extra opinion here? An editor keeps insisting on removing certain bands citing they are not doom becuase one website doesn't mention them as such, despite multiple other websites asserting they are (and being provided for him). He has no consensus, has extremely weak arguments (I don't say they are doom, so they must go. This website makes no mention of them at all, so they must go.) and continues to revert edits despite policies and sources supporting keeping the bands on the list. DarkSaber2k 12:03, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Report him to WP:ANI if you feel you're assertions are valid, and this user is being disruptive. LuciferMorgan 23:16, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Troll metal
Is troll metal a valid subgenre, notable enough to have its own article? It used to redirect to black metal, then to folk metal, but has been given its own article again. Just wondering what the general concensus is. IronChris | (talk) 23:20, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think it should have its own article. In fact I think it's not a valid subgenre properly speaking since it's simply (according to the article) black metal with lyrics dealing with goblins and trolls... Plus, the article seems to talk about forest metal (which is probably a wrong name for folk metal with Celtic influences) as if it was a correct subgenre (personally I have never heard of forest metal, and I'm used to seeing weird invented subgenres). Only seven bands on the list of notable bands have their own article. If the others were indeed notable, why don't they have their own article? I think it should redirect either to folk metal or to black metal. Zouavman Le Zouave (Talk to me!) 06:28, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * There are not enough sources for this to have its own article, so redirecting to folk metal is probably the best alternative. Prolog 16:42, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * You think forest metal is funny? I once found an article for Water Metal, which was defined as 'bands that feature water a lot in their videos'! DarkSaber2k 16:51, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Hahaha! Now that's hillarious! I generally nominate the fake genres on the French Wikipedia to deletion, so I heard about: Love Black metal, Punk Glam metal, Misanthropic Black metal, and a couple of others. I think we should do some kind of page where we would list all of the funniest alleged metal genres. Zouavman Le Zouave (Talk to me!) 20:00, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It would be great if someone could take a few minutes to deal with this one (AFD or whatever it takes). I'm technically on wikibreak right now... IronChris | (talk) 18:45, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Mallcore
Page was recreated yesterday (April 17), and it consists of an unsourced definition that I personally disagree with. The topic is sufficiently covered in the heavy metal slang article. I propose that either the article is cleaned up, or that it should be deleted. What do you other people think? Zouavman Le Zouave (Talk to me!) 18:38, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Should be deleted IMO. Fails WP:POV, WP:NEO, among others. What the hell is "sport metal" anyway? IronChris | (talk) 18:45, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with Chris. Inhumer 18:56, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I've never heard of "Sport Metal", but I have heard people insultingly call bands like Pantera and Dying Fetus "Jock Metal". Inhumer 00:45, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I remember having worked on the previous version of the article, before it got deleted, and the article in its present form really needs to be either re-done completely or deleted (I think the latter is a wiser choice). Zouavman Le Zouave (Talk to me!) 06:05, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

The previous article was a hell of a lot better than this and was sourced, so unless someone wants to completely rewrite it using new sources coupled with the old ones, it needs to be deleted. Ours18 01:56, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I think if we get like three people (I'm thinking: Ours18, someone else, and myself) to actively work on the article on a daily basis, we could get the article to stay with sources and neutrality. Zouavman Le Zouave (Talk to me!) 06:48, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It probably wouldn't be any more than a stub, but that's fine with me. Ours18 07:44, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I think that if it's too big, it will be deleted. Zouavman Le Zouave (Talk to me!) 09:25, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

metalcore
why the "key artists" of metalcore are changed? i think the former key bands were more appropriated....who the fuck are judge and overcast?

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Punk_music" â€”The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.220.116.152 (talk) 18:49, 25 April 2007 (UTC).

Encyclopaedia Metallum
There is something I'm curious about... And I can't find any discussion on Encyclopaedia Metallum (if there is one, please show me).

How thrustworthy is Encyclopaedia Metallum? I notice Encyclopaedia Metallum is often used as source for metal articles.

I think Encyclopaedia Metallum is a good source to look for discographies, band members, etc. but a dubious source when it comes to genre names or what genre bands belong to. I think it is a controversial site regarding their strict submission policy and I feel they have a narrow minded vision of metal. I don't think we/wikipedia should conform to their vision too easily.

Nevertheless, I think it's a great site, but I wonder how much authority the site should have..

Is there a wikipedian policy regarding Encyclopaedia Metallum? Emmaneul 13:36, 20 April 2007 (UTC)


 * As far as I can tell, it qualifies as a reliable source because it has a strict submission policy. As for a narrow vision of metal, in my experience EM is, if anything, too broad with what genres it gives bands. DarkSaber2k 13:40, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It is extremely accurate and coherent in its genre names. The "narrow minded" vision of metal is shared by many, many people, including myself. Zouavman Le Zouave (Talk to me!) 17:14, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

The only person who ever had a problem with it was Deathrocker/Daddy Kindsoul. Inhumer 17:24, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Make that 2. I had a clash with someone called Nothingagainst about EM over at List of doom metal bands over which sources were more reliable. DarkSaber2k 17:27, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Make that 3 - I have a problem with EM. LuciferMorgan 02:15, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I think there are anomalies in EM. Certainly bands with -core influences seem to get into the database randomly. For example: why is PsyOpus listed and Ion Dissonance isn't? Despite dozens of sources claiming PsyOpus also is a -core band. Many of hard to define bands like Meshuggah, BTBAM, Mastodon, etc. get their genres edited weekly on Wikipedia. Despite many other sources people keep changing genres back to the ones on EM. And what about a term like shred metal or Half-Thrash? There is no source on the internet defining Half-Thrash. A google search gives about 600 hits most of them totally irrelevant. EM uses undefined "genres", and they en up in wikipedia. Emmaneul 20:51, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Encyclopaedia Metallum wouldn't get passed FAC as a source of info, so I wouldn't use it. Furthermore, EM as a source proves nothing whatsoever - anyone saying that its discography is more reliable than official band sites are plainly in Noddy land. LuciferMorgan 02:15, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Coroner (band)
This article needs a drastic reworking. I am a big fan of this legendary band, and while I would love to rewrite this article myself, I am busy studying for final exams right now. I would greatly appreciate any help with this. --Eastlaw 05:37, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

You can put Coroner in Articles that need to be improved Emmaneul 09:31, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

That page needs most of its content murdered, and then needs writing from scratch. LuciferMorgan 23:23, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

New Wave of American Metal
Anyone else think this should be deleted? As the term itself is a neologism made up by a magazine and almost all of the bands are metalcore. Inhumer 03:11, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * $10 says the AfD turns into a trainwreck. DarkSaber2k 12:46, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it should be deleted, as there are only 596 results on Google and sites like Last.fm pop up on this search. Zouavman Le Zouave (Talk to me!) 18:17, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I'll put it up for AFD in the next few days. Inhumer 00:16, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The article's a bunch of bullshit anyway - it isn't a subgenre of Metalcore at all. It's occasionally used for bands like Pantera and Machine Head etc. LuciferMorgan 13:47, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, the article definitvely fails WP:ATT anyway. Not a single source or website is listed, making it total original research to boot. Expect arguments to keep being based around 'X genre has an article, so NWOAHM deserves an article' and the usual such tripe. DarkSaber2k 13:59, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Alright, I nominated it. Inhumer 18:41, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I know Garry Sharpe-Young wrote a book called this. LuciferMorgan 23:13, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The book is an encyclopedia on newer American metal bands. I don't think it bothers to describe a movement. WesleyDodds 10:15, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * True, and it's likely factually incorrect anyway. LuciferMorgan 02:15, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it should be deleted. However, wasn't it mentioned in the film "Metal: A Headbanger's Journey"? â€”The preceding unsigned comment was added by M2K 2 (talk â€¢ contribs) 23:38, 6 May 2007 (UTC).

I read in Metal Hammer the other day that Chimaira wore it on a t-shirt for a laugh, as play on New Wave of British Heavy Metal and it took off from there. So it originated from a joke, if that means anything (The Elfoid 18:08, 18 May 2007 (UTC))

my chemical romance
is NOT a metal band.

metallica that is metal

dream theater that is metal]]

iron maiden that is metal

my chemical romance is NOT metal. 24.139.30.154 22:36, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed 100%, but what is your point? Zouavman Le Zouave (Talk to me!) 22:55, 28 April 2007 (UTC)


 * You are refering to personal opinion, something which is not substantial evidence to properly class 'My Chemical Romance' as either 'Metal' or some other musical genre within the boundries of the Wikipedia article standards. Please, by all means prove that it is in fact not 'Metal' or any other 'Metal' sub-genre, but please, provide sufficiant evidence. Thank you for your time. On the same note, i hate 'My Chemical Romance' most likely as much as you do, and within the sub-culture of 'Metal', they really do not belong. Hellfreeze 05:20, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Well I don't think it's a personal opinion really. He/She is just pointing out that MCR is not metal (which is a fact). But I am rather wondering if this user just decided to put that randomly, or if he/she has a point. I went through the article, and no where it claims the band to be metal, even in the "disputed subgenres" section. The only thing I see that could've led him/her to post that message is the fact that on the MCR talk page there is the HMM template (along with many others). Zouavman Le Zouave (Talk to me!) 10:18, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


 * And yet another tiresome debate about what is and isn't metal on this page... This is all getting very shabby... LuciferMorgan 02:11, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I think MCR is NOT metal but have strong enough links to the genre to need it in their genre list. Just like Van Halen. Heck, Deep Purple and Led Zeppelin were mostly not metal based bands, but they get the tag for their links and influence. (The Elfoid 18:10, 18 May 2007 (UTC))

WikiProject Metal: ProjectGenre
There seems to be a consistent pattern of users (mostly anons) changing the genre of metalcore bands into "death metal", "thrash metal", "black metal", etc. Most of these users are reluctant for discussion, and if they do engage in some, it doesn't get very far.

I fail to see why some editors want to distance metalcore bands from metalcore. True, metalcore has been associated as a "scene" genre, too close to the hardcore/emo movement - but many of the bands started out as that, continue to use hardcore music/hardcore ethics from their roots, and ally with similar bands on tours. As the saying goes, "one can't have their cake and eat it, too."

Some on W:M have helped in reverting band articles back to the correct genres; feel free to join. List of death metal bands, Darkest Hour (band), Job For A Cowboy, Light This City and The Black Dahlia Murder are a few articles to watch out for the frivolous "this band is not metalcore!" edits. --Danteferno 14:45, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

List of death metal bands
Can someone please come and have a look at this and user Kissesforme? He keeps creating just about the worst band articles I've ever seen for obscure turkish detah metal bands just to get the names onto the list. DarkSaber2k 12:48, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
 * If the bands have a wiki page and are death metal, it shouldn't be a problem, should it? Emmaneul 17:07, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
 * If the band articles have no sources or have non-notable subjects, then an AfD could be possible. If the band articles are badly written, then we could rewrite them. As Emmaneul said, there is no problem as long as the bands on the list are death metal and have their own article. Zouavman Le Zouave (Talk to me!) 18:04, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

The article is poorly written, unsourced, and non notable. It should be deleted. As should this one. Inhumer 00:31, 10 May 2007 (UTC) He did it to the List of black metal bands too. Inhumer 00:36, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Afd all the article's that are poorly written etc. as Inhumer have described them. This project is swamped with stub articles and non notable bands shouldn't be added to the list. LuciferMorgan 11:10, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Then a lot of band pages will have to be deleted, a lot of bands are not notable (but who is gonna decide what's notable?)Emmaneul 13:05, 15 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Consensus will decide. The main issue is that these non notable stubs remain messy stubs. LuciferMorgan 13:07, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok then we can start nominating non notable death metal bands, I'll make a small start Emmaneul 15:51, 15 May 2007 (UTC) * Wormed - Talk page indicates this band is notable, the article just lacks sources.
 * Enter self
 * !T.O.O.H.!
 * 1917 (band)
 * 122 Stab Wounds
 * Amoebic Dysentery
 * Angel 7
 * Autumn Leaves (band)
 * Beheaded
 * Arghoslent
 * Anasarca (band)
 * Amoral (band)
 * Abramelin (band)
 * Altar (band)
 * Cypher
 * Corpsefucking Art
 * Creepmime
 * Consolation
 * Comecon (band)
 * Coercion (band)
 * Chaosbreed


 * Cool. It's nice to someone get in the thick of things. LuciferMorgan 21:31, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * added bands to non-notable listEmmaneul 21:51, 15 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I looked through 0-9, A and C and I think the bands I added to the list might not be considered notable. (please correct me if I'm wrong)... Emmaneul (Talk) 19:48, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I think of those, !T.O.O.H.! could be considered notable as they released two albums on Earache Records and have toured a medium sized country(The Czech Republic). Inhumer 23:24, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The Amoral article asserted notability through several criteria of WP:MUSIC, but it had been blanked by a vandal and it was like that for over a month until now. Prolog 01:33, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * aha, I see. Emmaneul (Talk) 05:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:Metallum
Template:Metallum has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. â€” Prolog 01:40, 21 May 2007 (UTC)


 * About time someone nominated this pile of rubbish. Nearly every one here spams just about every metal articles with links to this source, and for no damn reason whatsoever either. Quicker it's deleted the better, and then rather than spamming articles people can actually improve the content. LuciferMorgan 14:01, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

ehm
there are lot of important(or not) bands on wikipedia which are tagged alternative metal... is there a way to find all of them?


 * Category:Alternative musical groups may list some of them. LuciferMorgan 16:10, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Articles that need to be created - this section of the page needs deletion
All the articles that allegedly need creation are all ones which would get nominated for deletion, and rather than encouraging more mediocre stub creations by the Project could we place a better emphasis on improving the articles we already have? I propose deleting this section of the page as it encourages article creation on non-notable subjects. Furthermore, the Metal page needs total revamping and the whole Project needs reworking. LuciferMorgan 14:05, 21 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Well what does everything else think? If there's no opinion, I'll go ahead and delete it per WP:SNOW. LuciferMorgan 16:10, 27 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm for deleting it for now at least. Inhumer 20:36, 28 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok, cool. The thing is that I've never heard of any of these bands, most get AFD,d and there's a lot of bigger artists which need attention. LuciferMorgan 18:32, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Rust In Peace
Does anybody want to collaborate to help get this featured, possibly? We need more collaboration. Most of the featured articles are featured because of WikiProject Slayer. I've been working on this article a lot recently. I need help finding sources, too. Doppelganger 16:18, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not a part of this Project due to the fact of the inactivity, but I'm a part of WikiProject Slayer and am responsible for 2 of those FAs (with one at FAC). I'm busy at present, but given the fact one of those FAs was for an album (Christ Illusion) I would like to help in a reviewer style format. My credentials can be seen here. LuciferMorgan 18:37, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Crossover Thrash
Doe anyone know why it was redirected to Thrash metal and why it doesn't have its own article (anymore)? Inhumer 17:35, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Apparently it was deleted and recreated as a redirect page. Zouavman Le Zouave (Talk to me!) 17:55, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

The article should be recreated. Inhumer 23:10, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I found the deletion dicussion, does anyone know how to go about trying to get an article undeleted. Inhumer 23:18, 20 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Change the redirect and write the article properly with reliable sources. LuciferMorgan 02:13, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

While a fan, I don't know nearly enough about the genre to write the article. Inhumer 02:44, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

It was deleted again Inhumer 18:12, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The article was reposted deleted content from Answers.com, so it was a valid speedy per WP:CSD. Prolog 23:42, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh, I agree it was a valid deletion, I just think it should have an article. Inhumer 03:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

One that is sourced though. Inhumer 03:22, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Time to replace Infobox Guitarist?
There have been a growing number of Wikipedians questioning the need for a separate infobox for guitarists. The Guitarist infobox was created by WikiProject Guitarists, and it easily survived a deletion nomination back in September of last year, but that was before Infobox musical artist (which is supported by WikiProject Musicians) became a widely accepted standard. Both infoboxes are currently endorsed by WikiProject Biography, but recent discussions between some members of the Guitarist and Musician Wikiprojects have concluded that it may be time to deprecate the guitarist infobox, and start replacing it. (Unfortunately, this is not a task for bots, and will have to be done manually.)

Before making any final decision on the matter, we would like to get feedback from the broader community, so I am posting this notice to several Wikiprojects which may be affected. Comments should be posted to Template talk:Guitarist infobox. If you have strong feelings about this infobox, one way or the other, please feel free to let us know. Thanks, Xtifr tÃ¤lk 12:21, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Promotional images
I find myself wandering around the metal corner of Wikipedia rather a lot, and I find that articles on heavy metal use a painful number of copyrighted images, especially promotional ones. So many people who are uploading these do not understand our fair use policy- if a free alternative which showed the same thing could be found, then we do not use the promotional image. Far too often, small articles have a few paragraphs, a discography and an infobox with a promotional image. This is not acceptable. Flickr is a good source for free images, and a bit of searching may find photos whose owners are willing to release them under a free license. If you come across images being used in an unacceptable way, please tag them with this, so they will be deleted. If in doubt, feel free to drop me a line. Thanks. J Milburn 20:58, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

8mm Overdose
Aloha. I need a member from this project to review 8mm Overdose for notability. Thanks. —Viriditas | Talk 08:24, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, the band's name has been changed to Corrupt Absolute since June 2007. It's best to check WP:MUSIC's notability guidelines, and if in doubt, you can nominate it for deletion. LuciferMorgan 18:06, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I posted in the discussion section of the article, but I will also post here-

Th 8mm Overdose satifies the criteria for for notability. The Criteria for musicians and ensembles states: "A musician or ensemble (note that this includes a band, singer, rapper, orchestra, DJ, musical theatre group, etc.) is notable if it meets any one of the following criteria:"

number 4 on the list states "Has gone on an international concert tour, or a national concert tour in at least one large or medium-sized country, reported in reliable sources."

A 3 week tour of mainland China satisfies the #4 criteria.
 * http://www.rockyear.com/mess/kaitian_200606/

Below is an "altavista.com/babblefish" Chinese to English translation from the website listed above... the translation is not exact, but the pertinant information is quite clear- tour dates, venues, etc.

"Opens the day" the battle formation: THE BELIEVERS follower orchestra 8MM OVERDOSE orchestra ALIBROTHERS "opens the day" the time: "Opens the day" from July 13, 2006 to July 30 to establish provisionally the route: On July 13 Beijing on July 14 Shijiazhuang on July 15 Anyang on July 16 Zhengzhou on July 17 Wuhan on July 18 Changsha on July 19 Guangzhou on July 20 Zhuhai on July 21 Shenzhen on July 23 Fuzhou on July 24 Shanghai on July 25 Nanjing on July 26 Qingdao on July 27 Jinan on July 28 Tianjin on July 30 Beijing "Opens the day" the form: This tour sings develops can by the Eastern music organization investment sponsor, this is an unprecedented rock and roll event, cross China, beautiful both countries, the cross friend gram, the metal two big oppositions styles, the cross music, the film and television two professions have broken different national, different cultural, the different style, during the different profession mutual lack of understanding, founded the prologue which the Chinese regular bus tours, founded center western rock and roll true to connect rails the cooperation, founded Chinese rock and roll to be official, specialized beginning of a matter. "Opens the day" the step: The 1.ALIBROTHERS work shows 2.THE BELIEVERS LIVE SHOWS 3. Swings the people ten thousand person of Great Wall to sign constructs ceremony 4.8MM OVERDOSE LIVE SHOWS 5.OPEN THE the SKY union special edition bamboo slip to sell "opens the day" the union special edition China and America synchronization tour release: This is Chinese first Zhang Zhong beautiful orchestra cooperation special edition □□□□THE BELIEVERS follower orchestra 8MM OVERDOSE orchestra special edition name □□□□OPEN THE SKY (opens day special edition) above is a source about the 8mm Overdose China Tour from a local Hawaii newspaper.
 * http://www.midweek.com/content/story/theweekend_coverstory/hawaiis_metal_ambassadors_do_china/

There are even more sources listed in the wikipedia article. Thanks


 * Point 4 of Notability (music) is disputed. If that's the only criteria they meet... Emmaneul (Talk) 17:39, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Screaming (music)
This has been nominated for deletion; someone from this WikiProject might want to take a look at it and help clean it up. Chubbles 02:29, 7 July 2007 (UTC)