Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Middle-earth/archive13

=Community=

Roll call: June – September
Please sign your name below and on the members page. Comments are optional.
 * WebberTakito 01:31, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Won't promise anything this time, just'll do what I can. Súrendil (talk) 17:19, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Present, but not really doing much besides signing the roll call every few months. FlamingSilmaril (talk) 17:48, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Learning things at this time; will do what I can. Olorin3k 20 June A.D. 2008 —Preceding comment was added at 16:51, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Ooh. Someone archived the page. Thanks. A bit inactive as well, but still trying to watch this page and the various articles. Carcharoth (talk) 14:26, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Lord of Moria  Talk  Contribs 21:44, 22 June 2008 (UTC) Working vigorously on Dol Guldur and Watcher in the Water, soon I will work on articles that need dire attention, however I need help for extra The Hobbit and Unfinished Tales citations in the articles mentioned above.
 * Present. Rochelle CMN (talk) 02:54, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Present. Carl Sixsmith (talk) 06:30, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Ex-member somewhat back. I'll see what I come across while browsing the ME articles. -- Bryan ( talk|commons ) 22:13, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd like to try to work on Gollum if I get the time.--CyberGhostface (talk) 01:36, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Jack-A-Roe (talk) 00:26, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm still lurking out there. LotR (talk) 17:24, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Might as well start helping as I love Tolkien's works. IthilLuin (talk) 15:41, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
 * All of my Tolkien secondary literature must be good for something.. Astraflame (talk) 22:59, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * New here, but present. Troelsfo (talk) 18:41, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Hello, I'm new. De728631 (talk) 13:13, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Lately not that active (due to real life :-P). I'll try to chip in whenever it's convenient. Uthanc (talk) 11:12, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Still around, though distracted, as usual. Also, please consider this post to be an open invitation to please feel free to leave a message on my talk page concerning Middle-Earth-related discussions. - jc37 00:32, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Hannu-san (talk) 22:49, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Active whenever I can steal a bit of time . . . Troelsfo (talk) 13:51, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm new, but I'd love to get involved some here. Nuidramdad (talk) 03:50, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * New and will certainly edit whenever I can (rather busy at the moment with real-life, other Wikipedia areas.) -- The Fiddly Leprechaun ·  Catch Me!  23:50, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

=Collaboration=

Deletion proposals

 * Strike out expired proposals with and note result, moving deleted ones under Already deleted below. Please also add the links to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Middle-earth/AfD. Thanks.

Articles for deletion
* Themes of The Lord of the Rings nominated by Deltabeignet on 6 September. Mostly for lack of sources and the whole article being a grand if well-written OR essay. Might be an opportunity to employ Astraflame's workpages of academic sources. De728631 (talk) 00:07, 7 September 2008 (UTC) "The result was Keep we recently decided that there is actually no deadline." De728631 (talk) 00:24, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Gollum's Song prodded today by Utgard Loki for being non-notable. De728631 (talk) 14:47, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Could be merged to Music of The Lord of the Rings film trilogy. If someone does do that, could they have a look at the other song articles in Category:The Lord of the Rings film music, and merge them (or the relevant bits) into the main article, as needed. Note that May It Be (number 1 in Germany) and Into the West (song) (won an Oscar) are probably notable enough to have stand-alone articles. Carcharoth (talk) 20:29, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I merged Gollum's song into the main article. De728631 (talk) 01:16, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Redirects for deletion
I've merged Fornost into Arnor, the request had been on there for over a year. I don't know what the process is for how long the redirect should be alive for. Carl Sixsmith (talk) 19:39, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Already deleted

 * Category:Middle-earth calendars - discussion - nominated on 1 June by Judgesurreal777. Same story again... Súrendil (talk) 17:19, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
 * "The result of the discussion was: merge Category:Middle-earth calendars to Category:Middle-earth and Category:Fictional calendars" De728631 (talk) 00:11, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Neo-Eldarin literature - Apparently created by the Ardalambion webmaster himself (herself?) I wonder if it could have just been merged... Uthanc (talk) 11:21, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
 * A summary could well be put in an overview of Tolkien linguistic studies, but that one was a difficult one to handle. Probably a bit too obscure and detailed for most people to stomach. I have no problems with it, but maybe a better approach is to reference things to the Ardalambion website in other articles? Carcharoth (talk) 20:20, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Articles newly made/found

 * Please ensure these are all added to Portal:Middle-earth/Pages. This is a list of all the pages related to the project, to allow related changes for that page to be used to watch changes to all the pages - please add template, categories and similar pages to that list as well. Though there should be periodic attempts to redo the list in a comprehensive fashion, keeping it up-to-date manually will be a great help. If you are uncertain about whether a page belongs there, list it at Portal talk:Middle-earth/Pages. Please also ensure that ME-project is added on the talk page of new articles, try to give them an initial assessment, and place them in the correct categories. The top level categories are Category:Tolkien and Category:Middle-earth.


 * Tolkien tourism (1 April 2008 Jessdonohue)
 * The Lord of the Rings: Conquest (8 May 2008 SkyWalker)
 * Door of Night‎ (2 June 2008 Jordan Timothy James Busson - recreated and expanded, although apparently without perspectives...) Súrendil (talk) 17:19, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Wolfgang Krege, German Tolkien translator. I translated his entry on the German Wiki. De728631 (talk) 17:14, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Already merged

 * These can be tracked using Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Tolkien articles by quality log


 * List of Middle-earth objects - most members of eponymous category, by Uthanc in mid-April
 * Elvish languages (Middle-earth) - short articles about e.g. North Sindarin, by Uthanc in mid-April
 * List of Middle-earth wars and battles - by Uthanc in late May. Let's hope that some of these will regain their own articles in future, once some third-party sources are added.
 * Gondor - regions, settlements and (tentatively) natural features, by me a couple of days ago. Súrendil (talk) 17:19, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Models for merges
There are some articles that I think are good models for how to merge material from stubs and reference it (well, at least in some cases). If you see any articles that you like the look of, please add them below. Carcharoth 22:16, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

See also Category:Middle-earth lists. Anyone have any thoughts about the advantages and disadvantages of these different styles? Carcharoth 22:16, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * House of Hador - lots of stubs merged here
 * List of Middle-earth weapons (nice layout)
 * Horses of Middle-earth (not as good a layout as the others)
 * List of Hobbits (different style)
 * List of hobbit families (same style as for the hobbit list)
 * List of havens of the Eldar (poor list)
 * Minor places in Arda (yet another style)

Merging guidelines
Since a lot of merging is going on at the moment, I should repost the guidelines. See here, which links to here. Don't worry too much if any of the steps have been left out, but please do try and follow them. Once you've done a few, it is fairly easy to remember. The checklist needs to be updated with a link to Category:Middle-earth redirects, and the bit about talk page and removing the assessment tags. Carcharoth 17:52, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
 * New guidelines, and addition of the need to check for redirects and correct them:
 * Open edit window at stub (PAGENAME A)
 * Cut text from stub, leaving categories and inter-wikis behind
 * Open edit window at merge location (PAGENAME B)
 * Paste text into correct position at merge location
 * Add div-id tags or section header at merge location and format layout
 * Save with edit summary "merge from PAGENAME A "
 * Go back to stub and put " #REDIRECT PAGENAME B "
 * Add the right 'Middle-earth redirects' category (see Category:Middle-earth redirects)
 * Save with edit summary "merge to PAGENAME B "
 * Click the redirect link to make sure it works
 * If present, remove from the redirect talk page
 * Consider archiving talk page discussions to a more visible location
 * Check for redirects pointing at the new redirect, and fix these double redirects if any
 * Hope that's all clear. Carcharoth 11:55, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Best articles
Currently we have 15 articles that are considered examples of the best articles we have. I am going to list them below so that people can enjoy reading them, help improve them, and have a model for articles they work on. These are from Category:FA-Class Tolkien articles (WP:FAC is a separate peer reviewed process); Category:A-Class Tolkien articles (examples of the best articles we have - effectively an internal wikiproject assessment); Category:GA-Class Tolkien articles (the WP:GA process is a separate review process). I haven't included any of the 85 current B-class articles at Category:B-Class Tolkien articles, but if any of those are especially good in your opinion, please re-assess, or list or discuss below. Also, please raise any concerns you have with these articles below, though remember to take extensive discussions to the article talk pages. It would be nice to update this every couple of months to see what progress is being made. Carcharoth 12:31, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Updated 20:24, 5 January 2008 (UTC); 18 articles now – Súrendil (talk)

FA, A, and GA articles:


 * Alliterative verse (FA)
 * J. R. R. Tolkien (FA)
 * The Lord of the Rings (1978 film) (FA)


 * Adaptations of The Lord of the Rings (A)
 * Eagle (Middle-earth) (A)
 * Elf (Middle-earth) (A)
 * Faramir (A) and (GA)
 * House of Hador (A)
 * List of Middle-earth weapons (A)
 * Maedhros (A)
 * Middle-earth (A) (former FA)
 * Orc (Middle-earth) (A)
 * The Hobbit (A)
 * The Lord of the Rings (A)
 * The Lord of the Rings film trilogy (A) and (GA)
 * Timeline of Arda (A)


 * The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King (film) (GA)
 * The Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game (GA)
 * plus two GAs listed under (A)

=Issues=

Template:ME-cite
Is it just me, or is ME-cite broken? When I try RotK I get gibberish: {{subst:#ifeq:RotK_Appendix F|no| {{sup|[1]}} Elphion (talk) 20:49, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * It stopped working correctly around February, when a new processor for ParserFunctions was activated. Will see how it can be revived... Súrendil (talk) 18:13, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Everything proved to be less disruptive than I feared:  elements just got higher priority than parser functions and should be  'ed in subtemplates of ME-cite. Súrendil (talk) 19:01, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

New infobox for places?
How do people feel about setting up a new template:Tolkienplace, modeled on template:Tolkienchar, to take over from template:Infobox LOTR place? (I much prefer the formatting of Tolkienchar to Infobox LOTR place.) Elphion (talk) 19:51, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, I created a replacement in November – Infobox Me place – but I didn't redirect the older one until now because I had changed several parametres (see its talk). It uses the same formatting as Infobox Me battle, and so did Tolkienchar at that time – but now the latter has been switched to the standard Infobox style, which I personally dislike because of the smaller font. So which style should be used in all of them for consistency? Súrendil (talk) 17:59, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

The Hobbit for FA
I've put The Hobbit up for Featured Article status! I really think it deserves it. Comments, support and critique all welcome. Featured article candidates/The Hobbit--Davémon (talk) 17:11, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The article wasn't promoted, and there were many comments and suggestions which will help improve the article. One thing that did come up that may be of interest to WPEM is that the Lord of the Rings article was considered substandard for an FA, and that it should be taken to review. Featured_article_candidates/The_Hobbit/archive1 --Davémon (talk) 07:57, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

The hobbit refs and info need help with article
I haven't read the Hobbit just the Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion. I need citations for the article Dol Guldur which already has most of the refs from the two books I've mentioned. I just need Hobbit info and refs added in. LOTRrules (talk) 19:54, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Request for comment on fictional characters guideline proposal
Figured I'd bring this to the attention of this project, since I think it's something that affects most folks here, the setting of a baseline of notability for fictional characters: Wikipedia talk:Notability (fiction) (viz, for example, most of the articles in Category:Middle-earth Dwarves). Feel free to comment. Ford MF (talk) 14:31, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) Fortunately those are mostly redirects.
 * 2) When in doubt, merge.
 * 3) References. Uthanc (talk) 02:32, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Roll call?
When is the next roll call? LOTRrules (talk) 12:12, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, there's one going on right now for June-September at the top of the page. After that, they come up about once every three or four months. FlamingSilmaril (talk) 13:45, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * That's the actual roll call? I thought it was a mock. Why not feature this at the front? LOTRrules (talk) 21:39, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Done it. Hopefully there will be more to sign up. I've been looking for ages for it, as if I was blind, oh nevermind. LOTRrules (talk) 21:50, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * June-September... I'd hope so, as many users take a break for holidays...--Michael X the White (talk) 22:28, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Awards
Are there any barnstars made? I cannot find a link from here. LOTRrules (talk) 21:50, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I've added a section. Feel free to add anymore. LOTRrules (talk) 21:59, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

C-Class
It looks like the new C-Class is nearly live (for articles falling between B-Class and Start-Class, see WT:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment), and soon we'll have to reassess existing articles. Any ideas about new borderlines pertaining to our project? Súrendil (talk) 16:40, 23 June 2008 (UTC)


 * What do you mean? LOTRrules (talk) 21:03, 23 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I think he means we should discuss what specific standards we have for C-class articles. While we are at it, we should discuss what the other assessment grades mean. I think I used A-class an an informal project-specific GA-class, as both GA and FA need formal reviews now (GA didn't use to, but does now). Probably all our A-class articles should be B-class until we are organised enough (again? the project's activity varies a fair bit) to have formal A-class assessments. It might also be an idea, if we don't have the resources for an A-class review section, to put any really good B-class articles forward for GA-class, or straight to FA (though that is harder). ie. effectively merge A and B-class, and deprecate A-class. We might also want to bring some of the B-class articles down to C-class, and push some of the better start-class articles up to C-class. C-class parameters would need to be added to the project assessment banner (that appears on talk pages) and the categories created. That should allow the assessment bot to update Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Tolkien articles by quality statistics. We have WikiProject Middle-earth/Assessment, but it is a bit out of date. Carcharoth (talk) 02:27, 24 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Lets start then I suppose. Where do we begin? Gandalf III (talk) 15:20, 25 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Lets begin by putting anything that consists 'mostly' of plot-summary, in-universe information and cruft, or cites more primary text than tertiary sources into the 'start' class, and define C-class as having to have reasonable real-world context. --Davémon (talk) 21:31, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Project page and members
I've created a sub page of the members section, the page looks a lot clearer and welcoming than before and also professional. LOTRrules (talk) 17:54, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks. There is lots of tidying that can be done. Be bold or ask here if you think it might need discussion. Carcharoth (talk) 02:20, 24 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I propose we get rid of bullet pointed articles and the graphics except for the FA status ones. This will make it look more prestigious and welcoming, and active. If a a dead project is seen then it's more than likely that people will not contribute to it. Also the ones that are labelled GA should not be in the A-Class list. This makes it more clear if GA and A-class labelled ones are seperate. If for example on the Talk Page of Faramir the article is labelled 'GA Class' then there is no need to list it on the A-Class section. Gandalf III (talk) 15:24, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Move Middle Men to Men of Twilight?
Random article surfing led me to the Middle Men article. On the the discussion page for this someone wrote (in 2004) that the article should be renamed Men of Twilight.

I don't know enough about Tolkien to know if they are right so I thought I would leave a heads up here. Can someone who knows more either Thanx Filceolaire (talk) 20:21, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * move the article or
 * respond to the discussion page comment.


 * Done it. You can see the talkpage as to why. Lord of Moria   Talk  Contribs 12:50, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

articles needing attention
removed excess/template/cruft/overly long plot summaries/speculation from

radagast, saruman, perigrin took, meriadoc brandybook, old man willow, dol guldur.

Articles may still need work.87.102.86.73 (talk) 10:40, 27 June 2008 (UTC)


 * What you did constitues to vandalism, please revert all of your disruptive edits if they have not been done so. Lord of Moria   Talk  Contribs 12:55, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * If you think 'politics of dol guldur', or 'culture of dol guldur' does not represent fan cruft then there is nothing I can do.87.102.86.73 (talk) 14:46, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * for instance if you read this "In the lifespan of Dol Guldur Tolkien had introduced a storyline of the politics surrounding the fictional fortress. Many incidences accelerated the events in the lead up to the antagonist's, Sauron, rise to power. Several such issues are discussed below. Political issues around Sauron's stronghold had increased the tensions in Middle-earth. The Wise, including Gandalf, had sensed an evil power growing, and continued to try to locate evidence that Sauron was alive and regaining his once great strength.[24][14]Gandalf, having infiltrated the land, explored Dol Guldur and discovered that the evil presence whose true identity he long suspected was indeed Sauron.[14][18] In T.A. 2851 he pressed the White Council (which had first been formed in T.A. 2463 for such discussions) for an attack on Sauron. Saruman — the head of the council, who had already been corrupted — spoke against this move, saying that Sauron could not regain his full strength without the One Ring.[24][14][18] Indeed the One Ring was what Saruman himself was looking for, and in his pursuit to gain Sauron's ring Saruman secretly betrayed the Council.[25] He claimed that the Ring had most likely been lost in the Anduin river, whence it had been carried out to the sea.[20][24]Saruman believed it lay hidden in the Gladden Fields and searched for it while secretly employing spies to keep an eye on Gandalf. The Gladden Fields were where Isildur, his sons, and most of his army, the Dúnedain, had died in an ambush lead by orcs, and this was where the Ring later betrayed the king at the Disaster of the Gladden Fields. Saruman let his quest for the Ring abide, hoping in time the Ring might reveal itself by its continuous pursuit to reach Sauron, its one true master.[14][18]""Sauron was left alone to his devices, and Gandalf was powerless to do anything to thwart Sauron's resurrection to power.[14] Gandalf remained troubled by Sauron's presence, and at the White Council in T.A. 2941 he once again argued that an attack on Dol Guldur was inevitable and necessary for the security of Middle-earth and its peoples.[24][14] Saruman agreed this time, but only because he had learned two years earlier that Sauron too was searching for the One Ring in the Gladden Fields, and perhaps had learnt of Isildur's end, and possibly of Aragorn the descendant of Isildur.[19]The Council gathered all strength that was available and drove Sauron from Dol Guldur with the help of the inventions that Saruman had developed during his studies of Enemy.[26][14] Sauron, not wanting to be defeated again, had already prepared in advance for the potential assault. Sauron too was watching the moves of his enemy, and so Sauron travelled in secret to rebuild Barad-dûr, his last great stronghold in Mordor, to be his new sanctuary;[14] however he later stationed three Nazgûl to keep watch over the stronghold.[20]"


 * which you restored, you will see that it has practically nothing to do with the article 'dol guldur', any relevent info. should be in the section history ie "The Council gathered all strength that was available and drove Sauron from Dol Guldur..."


 * also looking at Dol_Guldur you should be able to see that the whole section has nothing to do with an article named 'dol guldur'.87.102.86.73 (talk) 14:52, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) 87.102.86.73's comments are in line with other comments on talk:Dol Guldur. User:LOTRrules has been quick to call the editing vandalism, but it is nothing of the sort. I could wish that 87.102.86.73 had announced intent on the talk page before deleting so much (as others of us have done), but many of the changes are just. LOTRrules has countered that the article has been nominated for GA, but in fact he nominated it, despite advice that it still needs a lot of work, and the referee has been giving it some flak. I far prefer Uthanc's constructive response to 87.102.86.73's edits -- see, for example Radagast (Middle-earth). Elphion (talk) 19:40, 27 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I certainly feel like an 'ogre' or 'troll' deleting so much work - especially in this case - where the content is well done - (not always the case) - but the problem is not so much with what has been written, but that it's just in the wrong article - in fact the whole project used to/still does suffer much repitition across articles - especially in terms of plot. In the case of the LOTR, the whole book was at one time effectively written multiple times across many different articles.. when in fact that should be covered at the main book page, and not the character's pages at all.
 * In general I only make edits when I 'chance' across articles for whatever reason, hence the anonymous (but static) IP.
 * Keep up the good work - I enjoyed treebeard especially.87.102.86.73 (talk) 20:21, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Well the 'cruft' part is wrong. I mean even the standards declare that the sections should be included and they don't seem irrelavant. 78.144.20.173 (talk) 21:55, 27 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Guidlines/rules do state you can have the sections. Locations states that you can have these. Frankly I can't see what I did wrong. To IP 87.102.86.73: I assumed that you were a troll, since you repeatedly deleted vast amounts of information while it was on GA review and to other articles. I'd reverted the infoboxes deletions to Merry brandibucks article and a few others. However I do realise now those were on good faith merit. Next time please consult it on the talkpage as some sections do have merit. I have taken into account what you have said. Lord of Moria   Talk  Contribs 22:12, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

It has now been listed as GA. It was relevant after all. Lord of Moria  Talk  Contribs 14:50, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The parts I highlighted are quite an interesting and readable collection fo words, but I questioned it's relevence to the article itself, and also should bring your attention (as others have mentioned on the talk page) to the 'manual of style' for articles which warns against writing in an 'in universe style' ie WAF, when possible I recommend reading section 1 of Manual of Style (writing about fiction).. the problem here is that the article treats the topic as if it were real historical fact... In the meantime good luck, and maybe some of the parts I highlighted could be incorporated into a more suitable article??87.102.86.73 (talk) 21:12, 30 June 2008 (UTC)


 * right now I'm fixing the problems highlighted in the talkpage. I want to stick with the Manual of style for middle-earth articles. Also if third party sources can be found add them to the article using cite tags. It needs to be broad in its converage too thats why the sections are needed, but I will take your words seriously. Lord of Moria   Talk  Contribs 21:49, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Magic (Middle-earth)
In the article above I note no mention of the Drúedain who seemed to have some sort of magical ability relating to their self-similar statues. Details in unfinished tales I think.. might be useful... (the race article mentions the staues similarity to golems.) 87.102.86.73 (talk) 11:27, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Changes to the WP:1.0 assessment scheme
As you may have heard, we at the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial Team recently made some changes to the assessment scale, including the addition of a new level. The new description is available at WP:ASSESS.
 * The new C-Class represents articles that are beyond the basic Start-Class, but which need additional references or cleanup to meet the standards for B-Class.
 * The criteria for B-Class have been tightened up with the addition of a rubric, and are now more in line with the stricter standards already used at some projects.
 * A-Class article reviews will now need more than one person, as described here.

Each WikiProject should already have a new C-Class category at Category:C-Class_articles. If your project elects not to use the new level, you can simply delete your WikiProject's C-Class category and clarify any amendments on your project's assessment/discussion pages. The bot is already finding and listing C-Class articles.

Please leave a message with us if you have any queries regarding the introduction of the revised scheme. This scheme should allow the team to start producing offline selections for your project and the wider community within the next year. Thanks for using the Wikipedia 1.0 scheme! For the 1.0 Editorial Team, §hepBot  ( Disable )  21:26, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

White Mountains (Middle-earth) up for deletion
It seems like a moderately important topic for this WikiProject, but has no references to prove its notability. It was just proposed for speedy deletion (PROD), which I objected to. I'm not a Tolkien expert: can people from this WikiProject help out and prevent deletion? Thanks! hike395 (talk) 19:23, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Merging is better than deletion. I feel that's best in this case, but where to merge? Uthanc (talk) 02:36, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Minor places in Middle-earth - I know what you're thinking - how can a mountain range be minor? - I'd say minor in terms of the books etc.. It's mentioned but in passing description..
 * Also I see no reason not to have a list named 'places in middle earth' and those that are notable enough for their own article can have a link from there to the article.87.102.86.73 (talk) 15:08, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

All articles now have ratings!
220 unrated, now down to zero (with two wikiproject pages and a disambiguation page left). Does that win me the Middle Earth Barnstar???? :) Judgesurreal777 (talk) 20:09, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Did you rate all of them yourself? lol.  Black  ngold29   20:20, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

...Yes? Why? The 220 I just did? Look at my user contributions, it took about an hour....why? Do I need to rate every article in the project to get one? :) Judgesurreal777 (talk) 20:05, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yay, I got a barnstar! :) Now tell me what I need to do to earn one of those really cool Middle Earth barnstars. I am currently building an article index, so that should be a massive amount of work, perhaps that would earn me one. Article indexes, or lists of every article in the project, are extremely useful, as you will find out, but it's such a big project that I see why one hasn't been made for it yet. I'll do it! Judgesurreal777 (talk) 21:50, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh can I get one? I managed to get Dol Guldur up to GA. Lord of Moria   Talk  Contribs 17:32, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I would give you one, but I'm not really a part of this project, any regulars have the barnstar box, ready to dish some out? Judgesurreal777 (talk) 23:16, 24 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I should also note that I fixed the talk page and project page and contributed heavily to Watcher in the Water, and I also think anyone can give a barnstar and you do not specifically have to be a member, so can I please get one? I've worked so hard in the past few months for one. And yes I think we should give them out! You know spread love of the project.  Lord of Moria   Talk  Contribs 10:57, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Your award was awarded :) Once I get this article index up and running, I want one too, since one you see how mammoth a task it is, you'll see why I should get one. It will be very beneficial to the project. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 16:32, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Hello thanks for the award. How is the index going? May I see it? Lord of Moria   Talk  Contribs 14:29, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

The Hobbit film duology
Who thought up this title - it's a bit unwieldy, and as far as I know it's not yet totally certain there will be two films, how about "the hobbit (live action)" or as imdb calls it "the hobbit (2011 film). http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0903624/87.102.86.73 (talk) 15:15, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Articles flagged for cleanup
Currently, 887 articles are assigned to this project, of which 294, or 33.1%, are flagged for cleanup of some sort. (Data as of 2008-07-14.) Are you interested in finding out more? I am offering to generate cleanup to-do lists on a project or work group level. See User:B. Wolterding/Cleanup listings for details. More than 150 projects and work groups have already subscribed, and adding a subscription for yours is easy - just place a template on your project page.

If you want to respond to this canned message, please do so at my user talk page; I'm not watching this page. --B. Wolterding (talk) 16:26, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Media franchises
Dear WikiProject Middle-earth participants...WikiProject Media franchises needs some help from other projects which are similar. Media franchises' scope deals primarily with the coordination of articles within the hundreds if not thousands of media franchises which exist. Sometimes a franchise might just need color coordination of the various templates used; it could mean creating an article for the franchise as a jump off point for the children of it; or the creation of a new templating system for media franchise articles. The project primarily focuses on multimedia franchises. It would be great if some of this project's participants would come over and help the project get back on solid footing. Also, if you know of similar projects which have not received this, let know. Please come and take a look at the project and see if you wish to lend a hand. You can sign up here if you wish. Thank you. LA @ 05:07, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Franchise naming convention discussion at WikiProject Media franchises
Dear WikiProject Middle-earth participants...WikiProject Media franchises is currently discussing a naming convention for franchise articles. Since this may affect one or more articles in your project, we would like to get the opinions of all related projects before implimenting any sweeping changes. Please come and help us decide. Thanks! LA (T) @ 22:48, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

The Lord of the Rings: FA review
The Lord of the Rings has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. --Davémon (talk) 09:55, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Bumping up the Past/Present Discussion
Hi all, I'm still relatively new to Wikipedia, let alone this project, so I don't really know how the previous discussion proceeded. There seems to have been some sort of consensus regarding the use of past and present tense in all Middle-Earth articles in favor of using the past tense for all "in-universe" material. However, not only is the actual usage far from consistent, it is currently a reason for criticism during featured article reviews, most notably the current review of the Lord of the Rings article. Clearly, there is a need for some renewed discussion here, not only among the contributors to this Wikiproject, but also in respect of the wider Wikipedia community.

Accordingly, as I see it, the concerns regarding this special use of past/present tense for Tolkien-related articles are twofold:

1. Why make an exception for Tolkien? At the end of the day, the literature community does still consider him one of theirs, and in a certain sense, Tolkien did consider himself an artist in making many of his works as well. Even so, there are arguments to be made concerning his work as a philologist and an aficionado of mythologies and languages, and a certain historicity to his work beyond most (can we make the claim 'all?') other works of literature. But is that enough?

I don't claim to know enough about how this encyclopedia works to be able to answer that question, but it seems that the people that show up whenever an article goes up for FA review seem to think that is insufficient, and that Tolkien should be treated just the same as any other author. Either way, we should establish ourselves in that community one way or another if we are hoping to continue our endeavors towards featured article status.

2. Why treat all Tolkien's works alike? Tolkien himself did not consider all of his works at the status of texts (for a full discussion of the matter, see Charles Noad's "On the Construction of The Silmarillion" in Tolkien's Legendarium). As a benchmark, the works that he thought to include in The Silmarillion as it was originally conceived as a compendium for his mythology, which have a source and are of a specific style, were thought to be texts. A famous example of this is "The Lay of Luthien" which was actually supposed to be a song that is the "source text" of the Tale of Beren and Luthien that eventually shows up in Christopher Tolkien's version of The Silmarillion, which is edited to be more like a complete and consistent fictional history rather than the compendium of texts that his father envisioned.

In that vein, The Hobbit, and even The Lord of the Rings certainly is not a text in the sense of The Silmarillion. It is much more of a story just like any other, and hence there is less justification for treating it like any sort of special history. On the other hand, I think it would get confusing to treat components of that history, such as the Uruk-Hai and Gondor, in the present tense.

Why can't we just come to a consensus like good citizens of Wiki-dom? So, in short, I am moving for the use of the past tense only in respect to those articles speaking within Tolkien's history, and to treat the plot summaries of Tolkien's works like any other piece of literature, in the present tense. I don't claim to be any authority on the issue in general, and more particularly, I really have no claim over knowing what's best for this community as a whole. Is there a way for this issue to be called to a vote or something so that we can come up with a clear statement of consensus one way or another? Because it does seem pretty necessary to put us a good way down the line towards more consistent, readable, and featured articles. --Astraflame (talk) 19:08, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree 100%. For the novels (I know, I know) and the characters within them we should use the standard literature convention. Where the 'historical' texts suggest modifications to what is in the them, I suggest those modifications are dicussed separately. So for Galadriel, you'd give a summary of her role in the LOTR in present tense as the first section. You could then follow that up with something like 'Other appearances' discussing the varying versions of her earlier history that appear in the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales and HOME. That would probably be in past tense. This also avoids the trap of trying to synthesise a consistent history for characters where none exists. Some of Galadriel's backstory exists in different versions and it's not for us to try and decide what is 'true'. See Saruman for my take on it. 4u1e (talk) 12:08, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Workpages for academic sources
See User:Astraflame/Tolkien Bibliography and User talk:Astraflame/Tolkien Bibliography for workpages and discussions about academic sources and how to summarise and handle recent and past literature on Tolkien and his works. If anyone else has access to these sources, please add details. If you have questions, please come and discuss things over there. Carcharoth (talk) 08:42, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Also recently added, be sure to check out User:Astraflame/Tolkien Key Studies. The goal here is to try and put together a list of Tolkien sources that are worth some careful study to put together a more definitive account of Tolkien scholarship and thus preserve The Lord of the Rings' featured status! It's a open collaboration currently in progress. We welcome your comments, questions, and most especially, we welcome other collaborators with some time and Tolkien resources handy so that they can join us in the reading ahead. Astraflame (talk) 21:45, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Morgoth needs cites
Morgoth contains a section entitled "The Morgoth" which doesn't correspond with anything I've read myself and has no cites. This info should be adequately cited or removed from the article. Thanks. -- 201.17.36.246 (talk) 18:03, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I added a citation for the Ainulindalë, can someone please look up the Quenta Silmarillion for the sections that state how Morgoth tries to copy the other Valar's works and fails (Trolls, etc.)? The whole section in question is nothing but a summary of the article's previous content, but well, one or two refs might help. De728631 (talk) 21:42, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * If I remember right Treebeard says something to that effect to Merry and Pippin in Two Towers, though he didn't mention Morgoth explicitly. He talked about how trolls were copies of Ents and orcs copies of Elves. FlamingSilmaril (talk) 21:48, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It's from HoME X. More specifically: "HoMe X: Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, Text VI". No, I didn't look that up myself, I found it on the web! :-) Go here and search for "Myths". Carcharoth (talk) 01:04, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks! :) I just added that to the article. De728631 (talk) 22:46, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Cool! :-) Carcharoth (talk) 19:25, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia 0.7 articles have been selected for Tolkien

 * Discussion moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Middle-earth/Wikipedia 0.7 selection

Please join or continue the discussion there and help plan the work that we need to do for this selection, the automated version of which is now displayed in tabular form at WikiProject Middle-earth/Wikipedia 0.7 selection. Carcharoth (talk) 06:33, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Enel
I'm wondering why Enel is within our project's scope. Ok, Enel is the third elf ever created but that's stated on a dab page, while that article is about an Italian energy provider and doesn't even mention Tolkien or elves. It's not even tagged with one of our project templates but appeared on the "changes" list today. De728631 (talk) 10:08, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
 * That might be because Enel (disambiguation) got moved or created after a move, at some point. I've undeleted and restored the dab talk page. To remove Enel from the changes list, it needs to be removed from the relevant page, which I've done here. Warning: that page takes ages to load and edit! Carcharoth (talk) 19:22, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
 * PS. It's good to know that people are using the watchlist and other stuff. Some of that, along with other pages around here, was set up a while ago. I should have been asking people how easy it is to use the stuff round here. I think stuff has slowly been revamped in parts over time, but anyone should feel free to do a bigger revamp and reorganisation if they get the time. Carcharoth (talk) 19:24, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm using the watchlist as it is conveniently coded into that one userbox. A click and you're there. De728631 (talk) 08:53, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Templates...One Template
Their are multiple templates about the legendarium. It is confusing and unorganized. I propose a main template covering all articles of the Legendarium in an organized manner making research/navigation easier...having a main template with all the information would decrease confusion as to what is what. Many of whom are not familiar with the legendarium find it hard to navigate the articles. Some articles do not even get the attention they deserve because their are virtually unknown. This is a massive library of information and it needs a strong central template to catalog everything! -- Hpfan1 (talk) 15:15, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Figwit
Figwit recently got to GA but it's very, very short shouldn't this is lowered to a B-class article? Lord of Moria  Talk  Contribs 12:34, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Not if it meets the GA criteria. The relevant one here presumably being breadth of coverage. If it provides a reasonably broad coverage, with suitable referencing, standard of writing etc, then it should be a GA. 4u1e (talk) 18:41, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Having now read it, I'd say it was definitely GA. How much more could you say?! Notability has also been established, so it seems completely legit. 4u1e (talk) 11:59, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Alerts
Based upon your notification system, I think you may be rather interested in the above system.
 * User talk:B. Wolterding/Article alerts

I have requested that the deletion notifications be able to be separated from the rest of the notifications (featured article, etc.), so that they can be posted to separate sections or even pages if we wish. This would seem to be in your best interests as well.

BW said that he will add such implementation if at least 2 other WikiProjects support it.

You're welcome to comment there. - jc37 06:36, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Tolkien in Elysium
Elysium says: "In the fiction of J. R. R. Tolkien, the Elysian Undying Lands, the home of the gods, elves, and a select few others, can only be reached by crossing the western sea, much as one would have to cross the stream of Oceanus to reach the Fortunate Isles." (A) This appears to be WP:OR. It should be removed, or at least cited to a reliable objective source. (B) It isn't even a very accurate description of the Undying Lands. -- 201.53.7.16 (talk) 18:26, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The specific comparison made there does look like OR (I couldn't find sources discussing it), so feel free to remove it, but there have been comparisons made between Tolkien's writings and Greek mythology (this is not surprising because Tolkien's was writing in a mythological vein). One paper is "Obertino, James. 'Moria and Hades: Underworld Journeys in Tolkien and Virgil.' Comparative Literature Studies 30, no 2 (1993): 153-69." See also The Lord of the Rings influences. Carcharoth (talk) 03:48, 30 December 2008 (UTC)