Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Middle-earth/archive19

Two Lamps aka Lamps of the Valar
Two Lamps redirects now to History of Arda (redirect created by User:Chiswick Chap). It and Lamps of the Valar (redirect needed?) previously redirected to List of Middle-earth objects which was then deleted. I am not sure if either had a dedicated article on English wikipedia. I did however notice that this topic has Featured level articles on French and Spanish Wikipedias (see wikidata: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q641238#sitelinks-wikipedia). I wonder if it its notable and could be (re?)created on English one? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 10:12, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
 * It could. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:14, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
 * @Chiswick Chap Any chance you plan on tackling this in the foreseeable future? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 10:25, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I'll think about it. The lamps are actually covered in some detail already, complete with map-diagrams, so I'd have to feel convinced we had enough extra to say not merely to repeat what is already in the History of Arda and other articles. The danger if we go too far without good reason is that a merge/delete campaign will start up again, and for my money, once was easily enough. So, it's strong, robustly-cited, scholarly articles or nothing. The Spanish article, for instance, is almost entirely primary-cited, which would be a clear deletion candidate over on this wiki. The French one has 4 secondary sources. All the best, Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:30, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

User script to detect unreliable sources
I have (with the help of others) made a small user script to detect and highlight various links to unreliable sources and predatory journals. Some of you may already be familiar with it, given it is currently the 39th most imported script on Wikipedia. The idea is that it takes something like and turns it into something like
 * John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14.
 * John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14.

It will work on a variety of links, including those from cite web, cite journal and doi.

The script is mostly based on WP:RSPSOURCES, WP:NPPSG and WP:CITEWATCH and a good dose of common sense. I'm always expanding coverage and tweaking the script's logic, so general feedback and suggestions to expand coverage to other unreliable sources are always welcomed.

Do note that this is not a script to be mindlessly used, and several caveats apply. Details and instructions are available at User:Headbomb/unreliable. Questions, comments and requests can be made at User talk:Headbomb/unreliable.

- &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b}

This is a one time notice and can't be unsubscribed from. Delivered by: MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:01, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Redirect discussion for Fellowship of the Ring (characters)
The redirect Fellowship of the Ring (characters) is under discussion. See Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 July 13. —Lights and freedom (talk ~ contribs) 05:23, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Roll call
Please sign your name below; if you stop being interested in editing here, please remove your name! Comments are optional.


 * I might be busy sometimes (who isn't?) but I'd love to help wherever I can. Also, please note that I'm relatively new to Wikipedia, so I'm not the most experienced. However, I've read and poured over LOTR, the Hobbit, and the Silmarillion, and I consider myself to have a very good knowledge of all three (I hope that doesn't sound like bragging; I'm not trying to brag). ARoyalPrincess (talk) - 2022
 * Still here. Seemed to have been kicked upstairs, but have a commitment to do content work in my spare time and this is one area I will work on soon. Has been too long! Carcharoth (talk) 16:24, 31 December 2008 (UTC) - 2022
 * Still present. FlamingSilmaril (talk) 18:27, 31 December 2008 (UTC) -2022
 * Will certainly help to fix stuff whenever my grossly overloaded schedule permits it. The Fiddly Leprechaun  ·  Catch Me!  14:40, 5 January 2009 (UTC) - 2022
 * Mario777Zelda
 * User:Akrabbim 13:55, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Nrodovsky Ooh, pick me, pick me! I'll help when I can, depending upon how many spoons I have. Evening Scribe (talk) 02:42, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not much of a joiner, but there's no point pretending I'm not here. -- Elphion (talk) 20:48, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah well, for the record: I'm still on board. De728631 (talk) 20:47, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Just joined. Would love to help in any way I can. :) ~ 20:07, 25 November 2012 (UTC) - 2022 (last edited this WP when?)
 * First Age stuff. Double sharp (talk) 03:21, 17 May 2013 (UTC) - 2022
 * The Hobbit one of my favorite books as a kid:)Coolabahapple (talk) 04:47, 23 March 2015 (UTC) - 2022
 * Read the series a few times, re-reading it now, looking forward to helping expand the lore! Moony  22  19:59, 8 May 2016 (UTC) - 2022
 * Nice to meet you all. I'm happy to contribute to any legendarium topic (indeed I've been doing a fair bit already), although I'm still learning the editing side. Cheers Jungleboy63 (talk) 00:39, 30 October 2016 (UTC) - last edited Minas Tirith 2020
 * I'd like to join and help out. I love Tolkien and have a respectable collection. --Nerd1a4i (talk) 17:03, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Ready to defend the Free Peoples. James2813 (talk) 17:07, 19 April 2020 (UTC) - 2022
 * Hello, thanks for having me! EliteArcher88 (talk) 21:18, 30 April 2020 (UTC) - 2022
 * I'll join to help out here, if I'm forgiven for my role in the deletion push. Hog Farm (talk) 23:34, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Can't believe it's taken me this long to get here. REDMAN 2019  ( talk ) 13:20, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes. AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 03:47, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
 * -- Verbarson talkedits 19:54, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I am a huge Tolkien fan, and also love copyediting. I hope to help wherever I can. CuriousMastodon (talk) 19:52, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
 * One does not simply walk into Mordor. I'm a massive fan of Tolkien, and my interest has only been reinvigorated based on the recent trailers for the Rings of Power. TNstingray (talk) 13:29, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:13, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Sundering of the Elves.
Sundering of the Elves is a DYK article today if anyone is interested. GimliDotNet (talk) 17:55, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Encyclopedia of Arda
Is a RS? I don't think it was discussed at WP:RSN. It is one person's private project, over 20 years old, and received even a short academic review here (which actually means that the project might be notatable, if someone can find one more RS about it). Previous discussion here suggests that it's probably ok but redundant to referencing Tolkien directly, so I'd also assume that the fact that something is covered in Arda is not indicating notablity? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 09:55, 22 July 2022 (UTC)


 * "probably ok but redundant to ... Tolkien" is I think broadly correct: the analysis at glyphweb is thorough and careful but not scholarly. I've removed it and replaced it where necessary with primary references. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:06, 22 July 2022 (UTC)


 * @Chiswick Chap Any thought if EoA red link above could redirect somewhere? Is there a place in our article space for an article about such reference works? Ditto for GlyphWeb, come to think if it. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 07:15, 6 October 2022 (UTC)


 * @: Well, they are basically fan expertise (GlyphWeb is a mirror of The Encyclopedia of Arda) and there are various places in the literature where Tolkien scholars have ruefully commented that if you talk to fans they quote you exact chapter and verse on every tiny primary fact! The scholars of course are interested in themes and influences rather than secondary-world history as such. I think the best bet will be Tolkien fandom which is at least a decent home for such sites. All the best, Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:24, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Concerns about notability
I've come across a lot of articles about fictional elements in LOTR and I have to say that very few of them have any sort of claim per the GNG that they are actually notable. For example:
 * The GNG asks for multiple reliable sources; this is usually taken to mean at least 3 such sources. All these articles reach that level. The question of whether to merge is a little different, as the issue is more whether the reliably-sourced material is sufficiently separate to be treated with stand-alone articles rather than included in wider descriptions; I'd question whether there are any mainstream (as opposed to adaptation) Tolkien articles that should actually be deleted. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:31, 5 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Dol Guldur—mostly just plot, basically a paragraph of out-of-universe detail in the appearances section, no clear GNG passing.
 * Article has 17 secondary sources, a mix of scholarly sources (Nelson 2000, Rutledge 2004), popular sources such as game sites, Tolkien artists (Myth and Magic: The Art of John Howe, 2001), and Brian Sibley's 2013 movie book. Even so, further sources are clearly available: the 'Adaptations' section links and describes LOTRO: Shadows of Angmar as well as Jackson's films, both of which can certainly be sourced reliably. But I think we can sensibly merge to Mirkwood here. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:20, 5 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Barad-dûr—all just plot details except for a tiny mention of its depiction in the films, which doesn't demonstrate notability.
 * Reliable sources include Shippey 2005 in addition to the film material (which has two scholarly sources, Mathijs & Pomerance 2006, and Woodward & Kourelis 2006). I agree this is thin, and will merge this now to Mordor where it belongs. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:20, 5 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Lonely Mountain—the secondary sourcing here is to The Hobbit's themes, where the mountain itself is incidental.
 * No, the "Hobbit" sources are clearly identified as "Primary". On WikiProject Middle-earth, "Secondary" broadly means "Not Tolkien", as far as books are concerned; Tolkien's own writings are always included in the Primary list. The "Reception" sources are specifically about the Lonely Mountain, just as the "Adaptations" sources are, and the scholars discuss the symbolism of the mountain specifically. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:31, 5 October 2022 (UTC)


 * There are 12 secondary sources here, including 3 about adaptations, Fonstad's Atlas, 2 on astronomical objects named for the famous Tolkien mountain, and 6 scholarly sources (Matthews 1975, Lobdell 1975, Green 1980, Pearce 2012, Shippey 2005, and Harper 2006). I note an editor's comment on the talk page, that "It's only the most well-known place in Middle-earth: the focus of the Dwarves' quest throughout The Hobbit." That comment in itself doesn't touch the notability issue, but it's certainly a pointer that deletion or even merging would be a mistake, and the list of distinguished scholars should give a definite "keep" for this one. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:20, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm considering nominating these and others for deletion, but I'd welcome opinions on merge targets or other options first. Thanks, Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs  talk 18:45, 5 October 2022 (UTC)


 * I don't think deletion is appropriate for any of these; the quick analysis above suggests two merges and one keep. I've annotated the list accordingly. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:20, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Agree, there's sources for most of this. The Articles for deletion/Forlong the Fat type stuff is long gone. Hog Farm Talk 19:32, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Erebor has a fairly detailed and well referenced reception section that should immediately dispel any notion of deletion / merger. For me Dol Guldor and Barad-dûr can be merged into Mirkwood and Mordor respectively. But I’m not too bothered if they stay and are expanded. GimliDotNet (talk) 19:47, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Since User:Chiswick Chap asked me to weight in (thanks!). All things considered, merger is always better than deletion, and if this can be achieved through discuss here, rather then the more contentious AfD, all is good. There may be some more articles that merit discussion, and as long as the feedback here is constructive and not biased, it's very good to do work on stuff here, or at least to report thigs first before AfD. As for LM, the Lonely_Mountain section, IMHO, is ok-ish. We still have zillion of articles about fictional entities, including a few (but not many) from Tolkienverse, that don't raise to that level of analysis. Here, we have scholars saying stuff about this entity, one could quibble if WP:SIGCOV is met (I didn't look at sources), but I'd worry to much about this article. On the surface, it looks, as I said, better than most of the stuff that ends up at AfD for fiction, and again, we have plenty of that worse stuff to go through. I always think it's best to work from the bottom up, and this is not bottom. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 07:13, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I think my issue is that SIGCOV isn't met. Merely mentioning these things in secondary sources versus significant coverage are very different things, as you well know. To take Dol Guldur, for example, I don't see significant coverage in any of the secondary sources (and the grouping itself and Chiswick above misuse or misunderstand "secondary", as an official movie guide for example is a primary source not secondary.) The articles I highlighted here were simply from following one article to another and noting issues; I'm more than happy to systematically go through articles but that was not my intention. I think the fact that people quickly agreed these probably needed to get merged is enough of an indication that this stuff should get checked over more thoroughly. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs  talk 16:27, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

You’re straying dangerously close to failing WP:NPA when insinuating contributors are “misusing” secondary sources, adding the “or misunderstanding” is not good enough. A quick glance at the secondary sources on Dol Guldor shows none of them are “official movie guides”. GimliDotNet (talk) 18:57, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

As an administrator it’s actually unforgivable and unbecoming of your position. You’ve made a claim that isn’t true please withdraw and clarify you’re not accusing good faith editors of gaming the system. GimliDotNet (talk) 19:00, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
 * ...So you're saying this book, officially released as a companion to the film, is an independent source per WP:PSTS? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs  talk 20:17, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

It’s arguably a secondary source on Dol Guldor as it’s once removed from the original work yes. GimliDotNet (talk) 20:34, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
 * And you still haven’t withdrawn your WP:NPA agains Chiswick. Until you do, I will not respond any further to your comments. GimliDotNet (talk) 20:37, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Talk:Tolkien and race
There is a discussion at Talk:Tolkien and race on whether the article is neutral. Project members are invited to join in. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:35, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Talk:Adaptations of Middle-earth
There is a discussion at Talk:Adaptations of Middle-earth on what the article called until recently Middle-earth in film should be called, given that it encompasses film, television, and streaming, but no other adaptations. Project members are invited to join in. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:03, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Naming of weapons in Middle-earth
There is a discussion at Talk:Middle-earth weapons and armour on whether Naming of weapons in Middle-earth, a Good Article since 2020, should be merged into Middle-earth weapons and armour, a list article. Project members are invited to join in. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:37, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Orc
There is a discussion at Talk:Orc about the right word to cover the use of the term "Orc" in modern conflicts. Project members are invited to join in. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:10, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Bree, Middle-earth
There is a discussion at Talk:Bree, Middle-earth about whether the article should be redirected to The Shire where the place is described and illustrated. Project members are invited to join in. Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:59, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Gollum, the Turkish President, and civil rights
There is a discussion at Talk:Gollum about how much (if any) coverage the Gollum article should have of alleged insults to the Turkish President involving a Gollum image, and of legal action and campaigning in other countries about the resulting imprisonments and civil rights in Turkey. Project members are invited to join in. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:54, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Northern courage in Middle-earth
There is a discussion at Talk:Northern courage in Middle-earth about whether this article should be radically revised, following comments by an IP editor and a declined PROD. Project members are invited to join in. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:25, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Project-independent quality assessments
Quality assessments by Wikipedia editors rate articles in terms of completeness, organization, prose quality, sourcing, etc. Most wikiprojects follow the general guidelines at Content assessment, but some have specialized assessment guidelines. A recent Village pump proposal was approved and has been implemented to add a class parameter to WikiProject banner shell, which can display a general quality assessment for an article, and to let project banner templates "inherit" this assessment.

No action is required if your wikiproject follows the standard assessment approach. Over time, quality assessments will be migrated up to WikiProject banner shell, and your project banner will automatically "inherit" any changes to the general assessments for the purpose of assigning categories.

However, if your project has decided to "opt out" and follow a non-standard quality assessment approach, all you have to do is modify your wikiproject banner template to pass WPBannerMeta a new custom parameter. If this is done, changes to the general quality assessment will be ignored, and your project-level assessment will be displayed and used to create categories, as at present. Aymatth2 (talk) 14:27, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Addition of species named after Sauron to that article and to the list of such things
There is an discussion at Talk:Sauron about whether a number of species named after the character should be listed in the article as well as in List of things named after J. R. R. Tolkien and his works. Project members are invited to contribute to the discussion. Chiswick Chap (talk) 06:05, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Names of eras in History of Arda
An editor is repeatedly changing the Names of eras such as "Years of the Lamps" in History of Arda. A discussion is ongoing at Talk:History of Arda, to which project members are invited. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:20, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Closure needed at Talk:Orc
A split discussion on this page needs an uninvolved editor (I believe) to close the proposal. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:36, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Addition of plot/content detail to The Return of the King
A discussion has been started at Talk:The Return of the King on the addition of plot/content detail to the associated article. WikiProject members and other editors are invited to contribute their views. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:20, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Tolkien and JW Dunne
More eyes would be appreciated at Time in J. R. R. Tolkien's fiction. There is an increasingly contentious discussion about it at Talk:Time in J. R. R. Tolkien's fiction and we are in danger of an edit warrior going too far. &mdash; Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 18:21, 19 September 2023 (UTC)


 * All that is needed is for folks to acknowledge that an author's output is different from their inputs. If an editor is muddled about that, a little quiet reflection should sort it out. Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:15, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Cirith Ungol (band)
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Cirith Ungol (band). Edward-Woodrow •  talk  14:04, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Black Breath (band)
There is a requested move for the article on the music band named "Black Breath" to be renamed without the disambiguating "(band)", leaving no redirect to Nazgûl. Project members are invited to join the discussion.

This notice has been posted after premature closure of the discussion (on discovery that this WikiProject had not been notified as an interested party). The discussion has been reopened. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:34, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Sources on Tolkien's Lindon and Himring
I wanted to write separate articles about Himring and Lindon Tolkien, but I couldn’t find independent authoritative sources on them - could you tell me if there are such sources? Vyacheslav84 (talk) 09:25, 12 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Many thanks for asking. I think you won't find anything substantial enough to justify separate articles really. There would need to be scholarly sources which draw out themes such as Classical influences specifically from these places, and unlike, say, Númenor or Gondor, it's not clear that Tolkien invested much energy in them. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:46, 12 December 2023 (UTC)