Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Middle-earth/archive9

Tolkien articles by quality statistics (worklist) :

Roll call: April - June
Sorry for the delay in updating the project talk page (again!). Please sign your name below and on the front page. Comments are optional.


 * 1) May not be able to contribute for a while in the future... Uthanc 16:36, 24 April 2007 (UTC) Computer access severely restricted.... Uthanc 12:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) Trying to add IPA pronunciation to names I know I can pronounce right. Please check them if there is an expert.- Ran  da  l  l  l  in  03:57, 25 April 2007 (UTC) and new categories regarding The Children of Húrin.- Ran  da  l  l  l  in  04:19, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 3) Still around, but distracted, as seems typical these days. However, notices about any Middle-earth -related or Tolkien-related discussions are more than welcome. - jc37 09:07, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 4) I've been working on Círdan, deleting lots of superfluous material. I've also recently expanded some stubs, especially those related to the Shire. --queso man 22:29, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 5) Busy, but checking in here occassionally. Carcharoth 01:06, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * 6) Ditto Carcharoth. --Fang Aili talk 02:24, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * 7) Just joining up here. My HS graduation is in a couple of weeks, so I may have a couple papers to write, but other than that I'm willing to help wherever I'm needed. --Simpsone4 15:55, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * 8) As I always say: sometimes I get in the mood to assess; so perhaps that mood will strike this period, as well. --Bossi ( talk ;; contribs ) 22:39, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * 9) Busy elsewhere at the moment, but checking in and should be able to resume making more updates in a couple weeks. --CBD 16:25, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
 * 10) I'm available...    G   a n d a l f ' s - h a t   talk 13:35, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
 * 11) Busy, but working as I'm able. &gt;^..^&lt; Nimfaelin 03:06, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
 * 12) Hello! I'm new here. OliverWKim 12:20, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
 * 13) I've got my Tolkien encyclopedia at the ready! Monkeymox 13:47, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
 * 14) I've been tied up lately, but I'm available for some editing duties. --Gil-galad1 14:34, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * 15) I'm here.  Mostly working on the Namárië article (we could use some more help too ^_^). --Eruhildo 21:41, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * 16) I've just joined.  I'll look around and see what I can do.  --Folic Acid 18:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 17) Joined June 2007, as much a devotee to Silmarillion as to LotR. --Chr.K. 12:37, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 18) Still lurking, mostly busy with other projects that have much smaller edit teams. - PKM 03:41, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 19) Just joined this group, I often edit the Boromir page and have added my link to the progress of my work on the character called "A Defense of Character: Boromir" and it is NOT spam. I have in the past edited the main section about Boromir including the passage from "The Departure of Boromir" along with other useful information. - MatthewMM 29 June 2007
 * 20) When time permits.... LotR 18:14, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 21) Will do what I can when I can. Big fan, but not much on the languages, just the lore. Rosseloh 22:15, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * 22) Present and accounted for... Ryecatcher773 14:58, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Images for Deletion
Several images on pages which fall under the scope of WikiProject Middle-earth have been flagged for deletion because no fair use rationale given. These images are all screenshots from the The_Lord_of_the_Rings_film_trilogy and already contain the Template:Non-free_film_screenshot but still need fair use rationale, source, and copyright information. Is there any way to generate a list of images under our WikiProject that have been flagged so that the appropriate free use rationale can be added to each page before they are deleted?&gt;^..^&lt; Nimfaelin 12:10, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

ex. Image:Elvenruinswide.jpg

A-level assessment system
Carcharoth pointed out to me that the usage of the A-class is rather ambiguous. It's debatable on this WikiProject about whether GA is part of the B-A-FA sequence, which would normally (but not always) put A above GA as per WikiProject Middle-earth/Assessment, or whether GA is separate from it. As of right now, 9 articles are rated A-class in this WikiProject, usually just to distinguish them from B-class articles, and none of these are Good Articles. We really need to create a well-defined system for classifying these articles. I really don't know much about the inner workings of assessments, so I'll try to help, but I'm leaving the experts to nitpick about this issue. --queso man 00:34, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Correction: The Lord of the Rings film trilogy is a good article. --queso man 19:44, 12 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I suggest improving those 9 articles (see here), or at least one of them, enough to make GA status, and then carrying on from there. Well, all except Middle-earth, as that is a former featured article, and we should really try to improve that enough to go straight back up (will take a lot of work though). Carcharoth 00:13, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

All map images deleted: Should all the ME articles go too?
Per all maps for the middle earth entries have been deleted yesterday, and the CommonsDelinker removed them from the articles.

This seems to me to make a mockery of many of the articles which are relatively uninteresting if they cannot be seen in the context of middle Earth.

It also makes me wonder why the text content of the articles is ok, as they are arguably derivative works too.

I disagree that people should be able to delete images from commons that are referenced in WP, without first discussing it on the relevant talk pages. Aaron Lawrence 12:09, 1 May 2007 (UTC)


 * If the articles seem uninteresting without the maps, then improve the writing! Not all articles are about the geography of Middle-earth, and images other than maps are possible. Carcharoth 01:20, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * If the maps could be used under fair use, leave me a message and I will temporarily undelete the maps. Bryan 06:36, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It seems to be that there is a strange derivation between the image and text (article) fair use policy. I mean this is just clear -- people made maps of areas that the book's didn't even have maps of... and they are deleted because they derive from copyrighted works. I dunno -- all the articles that are only referenced by the material itself should all be delete now as well? That seems very extreme. I know that Wikimedia common's didn't have to tell the WikiProject about the deletion but its a very significant one and well worth talk about in this location especially. MrMacMan  Talk  06:49, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, some people from the WikiProject (including me) did take part in the discussion. (See: Commons:Commons:Deletion requests/Category:Middle Earth maps) The Commons people and us should have advertised it here more widely, but mybe it was (I can't remember). One of the problems is that the discussion actually took place several months ago, but a technical problem meant it went un-noticed for about 6 months and was only closed recently. Also, things have been slow around here anyway I also believe User:Astrokey44 created the maps, and was the one that nominated them for deletion. If you want, you can try over there to see if they will allow the debate to be reopened. The map creator also pointed out they are now in use on the lotr wikia (see link at the debate). Carcharoth 09:42, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I took part in the discussion also, and posted a notice here months ago that the maps were likely to be deleted. In anticipation of that I copied them all locally and could thus re-upload them to Wikipedia under fair use guidelines if we want to go that route. Commons doesn't allow 'fair use' images, but Wikipedia does. Rather than having a map on every location page it might be better to link specific locations to a few regional pages with maps. Of course, we have also talked about making alot of the small location pages into lists - which would help to consolidate things and cut down on the number of 'fair use' images needed. --CBD 16:25, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Middle-earth canon
I figure that people here might want to chime in at this AfD. Tarc 19:20, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I've done a rewrite, and Tttom added some references. Let's see what happens. Carcharoth 11:15, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * No consensus Uthanc 16:11, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The Edge of Night (song)
Who remembers that song that Pippin sings for Denethor as Faramir is riding out to try to retake Osgiliath? Well, it's called The Edge of Night, and it's up for deletion. If any of you feel strongly about it's being kept, then it (or deleted), then it would be great if you could visit here:. Thanks, Bmrbarre 02:03, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I've started a draft on a rewrite focusing on the source (FOTR, Three is Company - "A Walking Song") on the article's Talk page. Uthanc 18:23, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Recent deletions
I was looking through the log here and noticed several recent deletions. What should be done about these, if anything? I think expired prods can be contested, but ones deleted via AfD will be more problematic. These are also a mixed bunch, some are rubbish articles, while some are worth saving, in my opinion. Carcharoth 09:47, 5 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Criticism of Neo-Eldarin - prod
 * Tolkien-based MUSH - prod
 * FuryBand - speedy deletion
 * Middle-earth in popular culture - AfD
 * Lhang - prod, now recreated as redirect to List_of_Middle-earth_weapons where the relevant information has been added (ie. effectively the prod has been turned into a merge).
 * Tolkien-based Warcraft III games - recreated prod followed by AfD

The one I am most interested in here is Middle-earth in popular culture, as that forms part of the "After Tolkien" article series. I don't remember it being as bad as the AfD says, so maybe it got vandalised at some point? Carcharoth 09:47, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Update: I found a mirror version of 'Middle-earth in popular culture', and after looking through it, I'm taking this to deletion review. There needs to be a longer discussion on this. I'll post a link here once I've started the review. Actually, first, I'm discussing with the closing admin and the original AfD voters. Carcharoth 11:37, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree that ME in popular culture should be looked at again. At least, I think that an encyclopedia article could certainly be written about it, without resorting to lists of "when Gandalf was mentioned in XYZ sitcom". Tolkien-based Warcraft III games should be looked at my someone with knowledge of these games; I cannot tell if the article is talking about fan-created stuff or actual notable games. The other articles were rubbish and should stay deleted. --Fang Aili talk 14:49, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Salvage Jenny Dolfen (PROD, see below) if you can... She's a published illustrator. Uthanc 15:44, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * We should probably be careful about having too many people articles. I've got this in a subpage of my user pages, but I've never found the time to see whether it is worth salvaging or not. As for my views on ME in popular culture, see my comments here. I'm waiting for a response there before I go to deletion review. Carcharoth 16:28, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

The 'Middle-earth in popular culture' article is being rewritten in my userspace at User:Carcharoth/Middle-earth in popular culture. Please feel free to help out with writing it. In fact, we should have a page in the WikiProject to place pages (as subpages) for rewriting. Does that sound like a good idea? Also, one of the sources I want to use is Brian Rosebury's book which includes a chapter ""The Cultural Phenomenon." In this chapter Rosebury examines the "afterlife" of Tolkien's works and attempts to bring Tolkien criticism up to the present moment by considering the "cultural afterlife" of The Lord of the Rings in popular culture." Unfortunately, I don't actually have a copy of this book. Can anyone help? Carcharoth 09:36, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Articles already deleted

 * Jenny Dolfen, some time ago Uthanc 16:36, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * That was a WP:PROD deletion. You can object and have it restored immediately, if you like. --Fang Aili talk 02:23, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Articles newly made/found
From last archive:
 * An article to keep an eye on: The History of The Hobbit. Carcharoth 19:49, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Richard E. Blackwelder - a new article on a Tolkien fan, collector and scholar. Thanks to PKM for writing this. Carcharoth 13:02, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Russian writers who've published their fan fiction:
 * Nick Perumov
 * Kirill Yeskov
 * Roquen - very few or no other articles that link to this one. --- Uthanc 12:47, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The Tolkien Quiz Book - not sure if this is going too far - we don't want articles on all the books, but this could definitely be merged with other books later if needed. Carcharoth 10:46, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Tony Tyler - author of The Tolkien Companion and its updated later edition - died last year and also known as a journalist in various fields. Carcharoth 10:46, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Tolkien family is being expanded following the AfD of Baillie Tolkien's article. Carcharoth 10:52, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Dominion Of Men - created in January 2007. Carcharoth 11:07, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Should be merged w/ Fourth Age Uthanc 16:36, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Wulf (Middle-earth) - split from Wulf Uthanc 18:56, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

New stuff:
 * Middle-earth warfare by User:Tttom; suggested by me (see Talk:Battle of the Pelennor Fields) Uthanc 15:27, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Family templates
Any updates on these? Fixed-pitch graphics. Uthanc 16:36, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Lists versus individual articles
Perhaps we should start working on listification. Uthanc 16:36, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Terminology
It seems the general consensus is to use "Tolkien's [Middle-earth] legendarium". I suggest making "legendarium" link to Tolkien's legendarium. Just not "Middle-earth universe" or "fictional universe of Middle-earth". Uthanc 18:56, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Or why not just "Middle-earth writings?" Uthanc 16:36, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Present tense vs. past tense, and in-universe style
Due to recurring complaints: ...perhaps it would be better to give way to the general guidelines... or leave it to a vote. Uthanc 16:36, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Talk:The_Lord_of_the_Rings/archive_03
 * Talk:The_Lord_of_the_Rings
 * Talk:The_Lord_of_the_Rings
 * Talk:Arwen


 * We have this exception for good reasons. That said, perhaps the best way to deal with this would be to have a note with a link in our talk page banner, explaining this. - jc37 09:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I was bold, and edited the banner. Hopefully this will help lessen confusion. Let me know what you think. - jc37 09:29, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Important issue - will entail rewriting whatever way. Uthanc 15:21, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Lots of stuff in archives (from last archive)
Snipped lots of stuff here that should really be resurrected from the archives and discussion restarted/concluded. Carcharoth 12:55, 21 February 2007 (UTC) In particular: So let's not lose track of those discussions! Carcharoth 13:09, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Middle-earth/archive7
 * Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Middle-earth/archive7
 * Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Middle-earth/archive7
 * Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Middle-earth/archive7
 * Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Middle-earth/archive7
 * Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Middle-earth/archive7
 * Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Middle-earth/archive7
 * Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Middle-earth/archive7


 * I think that merging stubs to lists (allowing a more fully developed section to be split from the list as its own article) seems to be the current "trend". - jc37 09:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Streamlining Wikiproject stuff

 * 1) Since the list of participants at front needs to be updated, why not just have the signing-up/roll call here? (or there?)
 * 2) I just made the roll calls bi-monthly; okay with everyone? We're not very active as a unit anyway right now. Uthanc 16:37, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 3) Also, having discussions on multiple project talk pages are a bit awkward if we're not as active as typical forums are; anyway most of it goes here nowadays.

Random things
I wish we had more illustrations to balance film images - one thing Tolkien Gateway has over our articles. Uthanc 17:58, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction)
I am petitioning to have this page altered to rmeove the restriction against using succession boxes for fictional characters. I think this group has an interest since several related pages for fictional characters are already using these boxes. Please Vote Here.--Dr who1975 18:24, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism?
Could one of you perhaps look at List of Hobbits - I've recently reverted some (obvious) vandalism, but I doubt all the information in there is correct - for instance, I've never heard of a hobbit called "Andwise "Andy" Roper"! Stephenb (Talk) 10:49, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
 * He's Sam's uncle. Thanks for reverting the bogus stuff. Uthanc 11:01, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

There is a vote going on right here.
I just had to bring it to attention to two WikiProjects. It's a vote about moving "The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King (film)" to "The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King". Just click the link, note I'm a member of neither projects I brought this attention to. TheBlazikenMaster 01:28, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Kept with (film) Uthanc 15:19, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

new logo proposal
I would suggest you to use this pic (Image:The one ring animated.gif) as wikiproyect logo -- Andersmusician   $  02:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, any representation of the One Ring is perforce a Derivative work of Tolkien's stories and can therefor only be used under fair-use guidelines... and Wikipedia does not allow fair-use images to be used in templates. --CBD 13:22, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Ergo it should only be linked from here (which I've done), and the license should be changed to give a fair-use rationale (which I haven't done). Carcharoth 14:04, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

John Howe's image policy
From http://www.john-howe.com/forum/smf/index.php?topic=1910.0 - the man speaks:

To put it in a nutshell, there are four conditions for use of any of my imagery on a web site (not including of course photos by other persons; in that case their permission must be requested).
 * 1) That the use be strictly non-commercial.
 * 2) That the work be properly credited.
 * 3) That a clear link to www.john-howe.com be provided.
 * 4) Last but not least, that the use of the image be in accordance with the image itself. This is perhaps hard to make clear, but I would refuse, for example, use of one of my pictures to promote ideas, concepts or undertakings with which I disagree, or for which the image's prime purpose is only to attract attention to something entirely different.

"Obviously, I can neither control nor actually stop anyone from using what imagery of mine they decide to use on a site, but as I am generally dealing with people who appreciate the illustrations, I have run into few problems. (Most of the more amusing ones have been honest enough site owners who were 'sold' my imagery by someone less scrupulous, rather like the Brooklyn Bridge...)"

So can we use his images? Uthanc 17:01, 15 June 2007 (UTC)


 * For those who didn't see TCC's response on Uthanc's talk page: Unfortunately because the "strictly non-commercial" license is not "free", we can't use the images per Wikipedia's Non-free policy. --Hyarion 23:10, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Apologies for not updating this myself. Hyarion's Tolkien Gateway can, however, since it doesn't have such a policy (not bashing them). Sigh. Uthanc 00:55, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Link patrol
I thought I'd ask here before reverting the edits of User:Amsmith0903 who I'm guessing is the owner of Tolkien-Online.com, the links don't seem to say anything that the Wikipedia article doesn't already cover. Anyone oppose? --Hyarion 06:56, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

anarion house
Hi! I'm a member of the wiki Italian project dedicated to Tolkien. Some days ago we've done the complete familytree of the House of Anárion (spread into two parts, here and here); the template familytree hasn't been translated, so you can also use it on your wiki... there are some links that are different, but they can be corrected in a few minutes (and some words: figlio=son, figlia=daughter figlie=daughters continua=continues Re=King etc.). I guess it'd be useful for you ;) Xander --82.88.213.144 13:42, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Move proposals
There's a couple of move discussions currently going or proposed on M-e talk pages. Any objections?
 * Angband (Middle-earth)→Angband (see talk page)
 * Beregond (Middle-earth)↔Beregond (see talk page)
 * Nirnaeth Arnoediad→Nírnaeth Arnoediad (see talk page)
 * Dior (Middle-earth)→Dior Eluchíl, virtually for the same reasons as Beregond. Some disambiguating name must be present as Dior is a dab, but Dior (Steward) is likewise from M-e area
 * Nienor→Niënor, the spelling used in The Children of Húrin. Per WPME:S
 * A couple of categories could be renamed to follow common naming conventions (Middle-earth prefix before main subject - cf. Category:Middle-earth rivers etc.):
 * Category:Hills of Middle-earth
 * Category:Realms of Middle-earth
 * Category:Mountains of Middle-earth
 * Category:Ents→Category:Middle-earth Ents
 * Template:Middle-earth portal can be merged - see talk

By the way, Ierleaf page is a vandalism, I suppose? Súrendil 15:56, 4 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree on most of the moves, though I'm against changing the Ents category since Ents are, to my knowledge, Middle-earth specific. I can't find anything about Ierleaf in the Encyclopedia of Arda so I assuming it is vandalism. --Eruhildo 17:43, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with Eruhildo. Also never heard of Ierleaf. --Fang Aili talk 20:49, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I have prod'd it. --Fang Aili talk 20:52, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Nienor→Niënor - "Nienor" is the most commonly known name, similar to the case of Noldor/Ñoldor. In any case we should add stuff about the variations of her name.; there are more than two.
 * Nirnaeth Arnoediad→Nírnaeth Arnoediad - See footnote 5 and talk page. C. Tolkien says "i" is wrong. Uthanc 15:18, 5 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I went ahead and deleted 'Ierleaf' without waiting for the prod to expire - name was also inserted into List of Middle-earth characters at about the same time by an anon with a history of vandalism.
 * I agree that 'Ents' is fine as the category name since usage outside 'Middle-earth' is extremely limited.
 * On Template:Middle-earth portal, I don't think that adding it into the infoboxes as suggested would work for all pages. Infoboxes are almost always at the top of the article while portal links are often found at the bottom - though preferences differ and they are sometimes placed at the top as well.
 * No strong opinion on the spelling issues so long as there are redirects from all likely spellings. --CBD 15:33, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * "Ent" has other meanings: see ENT. Anthony Appleyard 09:11, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Please see my comments at Talk:Angband (Middle-earth). I have no opinion on the other requests. --Stemonitis 08:48, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Now below. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:04, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I oppose moving Nienor. The Silmarillion is probably better known than the Children of Hurin, and the choice is between two of Christopher Tolkien's arbitrary spelling decisions. Leave it at the simple spelling and document in the article. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:04, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I've moved Nírnaeth Arnoediad, Dior Eluchíl, and Beregond to Beregond (Steward) for now, until it will be merged. I've already come to oppose moving Nienor myself. Someone with administrative rights, move Beregond (Middle-earth), pls. Súrendil 13:59, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Angband

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

no consensus to move Angband (Middle-earth) to Angband, per the discussion below. As per WP:DAB, If there is extended discussion about which article truly is the primary topic, that may be a sign that there is in fact no primary topic, and that the disambiguation page should be located at the plain title with no "(disambiguation)". The suggestion that the plain title should redirect to a "disambiguation" title is deprecated elsewhere on WP:DAB and would result in a listing at WP:MDP. Both entries are recognized as significant search topics (see in particular the final post here by CBDunkerson), and the current disambiguation page ensures that links can be correctly piped and all links will eventually go where they are supposed to go. If necessary, please direct any further questions to my talk page. Dekimasu よ! 03:40, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * (Moved from Talk:Angband (Middle-earth)) since the tag said it should be discussed here. Uthanc 23:51, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Why is there a dab page? The subject of this article is the primary meaning of "Angband", and any other use is likely derived from it. Angband (computer game), the only other such article, certainly is. I suggest moving this article to Angband and refer to Angband (disambiguation) in a hatnote. (Or directly to the other article since there's only one.) TCC (talk) (contribs) 20:44, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah. Uthanc 09:06, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree, Angband is a pretty unique word. --Eruhildo 17:29, 4 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Derived status is not an issue in article naming. The only question is "What will the average reader expect/desire when typing in 'Angband'?" If no answer is overwhelmingly dominant, then that suggests that a disambiguation page is called for. To respond to Eruhildo, "Angband" is not (at least as far as Wikipedia is concerned) a "pretty unique word", because it clearly has two quite different meanings. I don't mean this as a criticism, but I am not convinced that WikiProject Middle-earth is likely to be the most objective group for determining primacy in cases like this, where there is one Middle-earth topic and one basically non-Middle-earth topic. Angband (Middle-earth) is a fairly minor aspect of Tolkien's works; Angband (computer game) is very popular, and the core around which dozens of derivative games are based. Do a Google search for "Angband" and you'll find that the game is massively dominant, and may even deserve to be moved to Angband instead. Certainly, I can't see a case for moving Angband (Middle-earth) there. --Stemonitis 08:44, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * By the same token, a bunch of people sitting in front of computers are not the most objective group for judging whether a computer game or a literary reference is more prominent in general. Nor is Google the best criterion for deciding between something that exists only on computers and is distributed over the Internet, and something that exists primarily in print: I suggest you review WP:GOOGLE. Tolkien's works have been read by hundreds of millions worldwide who therefore know what "Angband" means, but the computer game "Angband" is known only to a relatively small group of geeks. "Very popular" in this context doesn't mean much even to the wider audience of gamers. "Massively dominant"? Oh, please! TCC (talk) (contribs) 20:07, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Move. WP:Me is of course not "the most objective" project, but Angband is not "a minor aspect": it is of vital importance, since all history of the First Age is connected to and resulting from it. Compare for example the number of articles linking to game and to fortress pages. Many articles mention Angband (game) only as a parent version of ZAngband etc. It is also to be noted that current version of Angband (M-e) is more stub-like, but can (and hopefully will) be greatly expanded in future. Moreover, it seems to be the current tendency in Wikipedia to give major M-e articles without disambiguation, compare Rohan and other. Súrendil 09:30, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Any tendencies in the naming of other articles are entirely irrelevant. I didn't mean to downplay the importance of Angband to Middle-earth, but the game is also important, and having a disambiguation page at Angband is the logical outcome when neither topic is clearly dominant, as is the case here. --Stemonitis 09:45, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, another suggestion. Are dab pages really needed when there's only two articles to disambiguate? If it is present, then when a user types Angband in search or somewhere, he will need to look through a dabbing page no matter what he wished to find; while if one of pages in question is placed under Angband, we have at least 50% chance (or more) that a user finds the target immediately. Súrendil 09:59, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * See WP:DAB. Disambiguation pages are not necessary when there is one primary topic and one (or two) other topics; these can then be linked with hatlinks. Where there are two topics of roughly equal importance, a disambiguation page can be necessary. The first examples I could find are 20th Congress and MAAC, but there are plenty of others. --Stemonitis 10:18, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I have to agree with TCC here... I'm inclined to believe Tolkien's Angband is better known simply because it chiefly appears in print and it predates the game by decades, but I could be wrong. If you ask me, both are somewhat obscure to the "general public"... But if there's no concrete way of showing which one is more well-known, then both should stay where they are. Back to square one... Uthanc 23:47, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Tolkien's is better-known almost as a matter of logical necessity. The origin of the name is no secret to aficionados of the game. They tell you about it right on the index pages of thangorodrim.net, which is still referenced in the online user manual hosted at the new official site (yes, it may be obsolete information, but it's still there), and on the "About" page of the larger information site about the game . Add to that all the Tolkien readers who know Angband from Sil but have never heard of the game, and QED.


 * You're not too far wrong, by the way. I can't now recall if "Angband" was ever mentioned in LotR, but Sil was published in 1977 which gives us a terminus ad quem. The game was first released in 1990, so that's 13 years at least. TCC (talk) (contribs) 00:24, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * As I tried to convey before, primary usage is not determined by earliest use. No-one has ever doubted that the game is named after the Tolkien creation. The question is only which is the more prevalent usage now. Searching the Internet (with all the provisos to which that is subject) suggests that the game is actually more significant than the fictional location. Trying to de-skew those results to compensate for the inevtiable computer bias towards the computer game probably leaves the two about equal. Certainly, there is enough doubt about primacy to warrant Angband remaining a disambiguation page. Historical priority is not a valid argument (cf. Boston, etc.). --Stemonitis 21:24, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * This is incorrect reasoning, and you have not corrected sufficiently for Internet bias. If it is at all popular, the name of a computer program distributed solely over the Internet -- or for that matter, the name of any computer-related subject -- will always show up more in search engines regardless of the real-world prominence of other meanings of the word. For example, by your logic, the primary uses of the words "doom" and "quake" are for the series of computer games, which is absurd on its face. As I said above, the Tolkien creation is certainly known to the vast majority of players of the game, and is certainly known to many more besides that. This alone, even absent other considerations, guarantees its greater prominence. TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:31, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * After reading the above arguments, I agree with the proposed move (Angband (Middle-earth) to Angband, with the hatnote to the video game). I remain open to further arguments, however. --Fang Aili talk 13:32, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * You assert that my reasoning is false, but without giving details. Yes, there's a computer bias involved, but the whole point about that sort of systematic bias is that it's almost impossible to quantify. At least I was using some sort of source. As a second source, how about Google Books? That source is presumably more or less free from the computer bias because it lists only printed works (and might therefore even have a systematic bias towards Tolkien). The first few results all refer to the game, and thereafter it remains mixed (perhaps leaning towards Middle-earth). This, again, argues for there being no primary topic. Finally, just because gamers have heard of the Tolkien creation, that doesn't mean that they think of it first when they hear "Angband", or that they expect to find it, rather than the game, at Angband. I've heard of Melbourne, Derbyshire, but that's not what I expect to find at Melbourne, even if it is the source of the name. Incidentally, you might like to check what articles we actually have at Doom and Quake. --Stemonitis 14:28, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * WP:NOT is the reason we don't have articles on the more common meaning of "doom" and "quake", not because the computer games are more prominent. You even get the dictionary definition at the top of Doom (disambiguation) -- do you really think there should be an article on that?


 * I explained why your reasoning was incorrect. You didn't properly adjust for Google bias, and I explained why. And I don't know what Google Books search you did, but this one: lists a Tolkien book at the top. The next two are about the game, the one after that Tolkien, the next the game, and the last three on the first page Tolkien. On the next page, only one book mentions the game; the rest are all Tolkien. You can browse through more of the first few pages: guess what meaning is given most often. But there's still a bias toward computer-related meanings even there. For example, this search  looking for books published by O'Reilly Media, which focuses exclusively on technical subjects, yields 1336 results, which is a very large proportion of their 2062 titles according to booksinprint.com. On the other hand, although this Google Books search  for books published by Random House Publishing Group, Tolkien's US publisher, which publishes a very wide variety of subjects, yields 8210 results, that's a much smaller proportion of the 31217 titles listed for them at booksinprint.com. Considering that at least some of Random House's books are also on computer-related subjects, and there's plainly a very heavy bias toward that subject. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:43, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * It must depend on IP or something, because following your link, the results I get begin:
 * Game Programming With Python, Lua, and Ruby - Page 322 by Tom Gutschmidt - Computers - 2003 - 500 pages. Angband has been around in one variation or another for quite sometime. Its predecessors include Mona (1985) and Rogue (late 1970s). ...
 * Games That Sell! - Page 247 by Mark Walker - Computers - 2003 - 550 pages If you die in Angband, you have to start all over again, which makes it massively challenging. Plus, it offers just the right balance of entertaining ...}}
 * And again, it has only been asserted that there is a computer bias. Who is to say that in this computer-dominated world, a computer-related topic might not actually be more prominent? There is also another sort of bias, which I mentioned briefly above, viz.' that those who watch this talk page (and, by extension, those who post comments here) are likely to have a considerable pro-Tolkien bias and to express it. This is why I have been trying to find independent sources to compare the two; very few individuals will be qualified to compare them objectively. --Stemonitis 06:09, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Who is to say that in this computer-dominated world, a computer-related topic might not actually be more prominent? The guy with the degree in Computer Science, that's who. Should I start lecturing you on biology?


 * All computer-related technical organizations have an Internet presence, or so close to all of them that it makes no difference. Most everyone who produces software has a web presence, and many offer their product only on the web. (e.g. Angband (computer game).) Many of those who do not, offer online sales/downloads as an an alternative distribution channel. This is an extremely broad market, and there is no clear dominant player. Books are also sold online, but I shouldn't have to prove that the market is overwhelmingly dominated by Amazon. And far fewer e-books are sold than physical books, so the online files where literary references might be present are less common. Tolkien's work isn't available in electronic form at all.


 * Let's do a little test. HTML is the computer language used to author web pages. A very common HTML-related topic is the < a > element (the "anchor tag"). You can't write a website without it, since it's how you implement a hyperlink, and no reference on HTML would be complete without it. Dramatic structure is the underlying arrangement of plot elements in a story. A very common topic of dramatic structure is the inciting incident: You can't write a story without it, since it's what sets up the main conflict that drives the plot, and no textbook or reference on dramatic structure would be complete without mentioning it. So let's see how many online resources there are, according to Google, for the HTML anchor tag compared to the inciting incident. If there is no bias online against literary subjects in favor of computer-related subjects, we have no reason to expect that one would dominate over the other, as they are both elementary and vital parts of any "how-to" guide in their respective fields.


 * html anchor tag: about 1,980,000
 * dramatic structure inciting incident: about 156,000


 * QED


 * Incidentally, the two titles you mention from the Google Books search are the second and third results I see. I'm performing the search while not logged in. If you are logged in to a Google account, you might need to check if you have any preferences or filters in place that would affect the results. Click through the first few pages of results anyway, and see what the subjects are overall. TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:12, 13 July 2007 (UTC)


 * After re-reading your comment above, I see you really are trying to assert that the computer games are a more prominent use for those words than their common English dictionary definitions. I'm sorry, but you have obviously lost all perspective. I think you may need to turn the computer off and go outside. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:49, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I second Fang Aili's motion. Angband was (and is) first and foremost a creation of Tolkien. Not only is the game's name derivative, I would question the validity of it's copyright and/or permission to use the name Angband -- if it (they) even exist. By right of primogeniture, Tolkien's Angband holds privilege over a recently invented computer game. It is the game that needs a dab, not the firstborn. Ryecatcher773 14:44, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * "Right of primogeniture"? Where in the naming conventions does this appear? As I have stated above, historical precedents or chronological order are absolutely irrelevant to page naming. Please read and understand WP:NC and WP:DAB before posting such comments. --Stemonitis 16:29, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * First of all, there is no actual primogeniture rule per se, and it is also matter of common sense. The Angband article, as it relates to Tolkien, was in existence both in literature and Wikipedia first. Being thus, it doesn't require a dab subtitle. The game does.


 * If the Eiffel Tower had a game named after it, do you honestly expect that there would be a need to put a dab subtitle like this: Eiffel Tower (Paris)? The answer is a resounding NO. If you wish to argue that this is not the case with less obvious articles and dab subtitles, there are plenty of those also.


 * I think you are the one who ought to read the WP:DAB a bit more closely, the subheading of Primary Topic in particular. This is a matter of which came first, and as someone before me already argued, what would reasonably be expected to find under the heading. Tolkien's work The Silmarillion was around in the 1970's.


 * Tolkien's Angband, as well as the Wikipedia article about it, came first. The article on the game itself states that it is based on Tolkien's work, so where's the argument? Being that Tolkien is credited in the game article, and on the game's website, it is obvious that most everyone who who search the name on Wikipedia knows of Tolkien's Angband, while the reverse cannot be said. Although we cannot verify it, it is reasonable to assert that the majority of those coming to Wikipedia and looking up Angband, will expect to find Tolkien, but not necessarily a video game article. This is particularly relevant in light of the recently released The Children of Hurin, in which the place name 'Angband' appears frequently. Being that the game article cites Tolkien, we can go ahead and assume that Tolkien's Angband needs no disambiguation. Everything derived from Tolkien's creation, however, necessitates disambiguation. The original article does not.


 * In summary: Angband is an invention of Professor JRR Tolkien. His creation existed first. The game, Angband, was professedly taken from tales written by him. Wikipedia clarifies what protocol for an original topic is and the naming convention for a well-known primary meaning with regards to dab. Angband as a place in Tolkien's Beleriand, is known to both the readers of Tolkien and the gamers. Tolkien's Angband article needs no subtitle. Angband, the game, does. Period. End of discussion. Ryecatcher773 17:31, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * It does not matter what came first. Melbourne, Derbyshire came first, but that doesn't matter. Chronological order is not relevant. Derivative status is not relevant. None of these things is relevant. Primary usage is not determined by age. The section on "primary topic" does not mention age, because age is not relevant. --Stemonitis 17:37, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The relevant point isn't priority, it's that the game was named for the Tolkien creation for which the priority of the latter is a necessary (but not sufficient) condition. The origin of the name is acknowledged in the game's documentation: the game's creators were themselves Tolkien fans, which is why they chose the name. It can therefore be reasonably inferred that nearly all players of the game know of the Tolkien creation and consider it the primary meaning, since in the real world unless a namesake becomes overwhelmingly more popular than the original this is how most people would decide which is primary and which is not. But absent that, there are many other people who have read Tolkien's work who have not played or have not heard of the game. (No citation is needed to prove this, as the inverse, that everyone who has read Tolkien's work has heard of the game, would be the extraordinary claim requiring evidence.) For these people, the original meaning must necessarily be the primary since they either don't know or or don't care about the other.


 * Now can you stop obsessing on "first" and say something to prove your unsourced assertions? TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:12, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

You obviously haven't digested a word of what I've written, I am quickly beginning to realize that you are not a reasonable person. I have nothing more to say to you. Good day. Ryecatcher773 17:49, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

When it comes down to it, 20 years from now the game will only appear in computer history books, but people will still be reading the Silmarillion. At least that's my prediction. I don't play that type of game very often so I don't really have a feel for exactly how popular it is these days, but I believe Tolkien's works to be quite a bit more prominent right now - especially with advent of Jackson's movies. And I believe that it will remain that way in the future. So I still vote for a move. --Eruhildo 20:21, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * You're correct, and that's partially the point, Eruhildo. The game itself isn't even a licensed or commercially viable product. It's a low-fi game put together along the same lines as the stuff that was around in the early to mid 80's. We aren't talking about a legitimately product licensed by the Tolkien Estate, or through New Line Cinema. This isn't an Electronic Arts game or something by TSR. The only people that would be aware of it would be the cooperative 'active community' that plays it. If this were a copyright hearing, there would be a cease and desist order slapped on the game's creators. To argue what should be the precedent is a laughable endeavor. We are talking about literature that predates modern computer science, let alone a game made by some coding junkies with an excess of free time. If anyone wants numbers of how many people know about The Silmarillion versus this game, perhaps we could submit a query to Houghton Mifflin for how many editions they have printed (and sold) over the decades as well as the numbers for The Children of Hurin. If this is to be a poll, then I cast my stone for a move as well. Ryecatcher773 20:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. What may be in 20 years time is a matter for us to consider in 20 years time and not before. None of the points Ryecatcher773 raises are especially pertinent. That the game is "low-fi" does not affect its notability, nor the alleged status of its creators and maintainers as "coding junkies with excess free time" (which clearly qualifies as a personal attack). Our conventions call for the article "Angband" to host the topic which the majority of readers would expect to find at that title. So far, the only evidence to have been provided that that majority would expect the place featured in The Silmarillion is a simple, unsourced assertion. Moves requests are, critically, not votes, but rely on the arguments presented, in the light of the naming conventions and other standard practices. Please restrict your comments accordingly. --Stemonitis 21:49, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * So far, the only evidence to have been provided that that majority would expect the place featured in The Silmarillion is a simple, unsourced assertion. That's false, and you know it. TCC (talk) (contribs) 05:12, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm getting really sick of this whole argument. Can we just make a decision and act on it? From what I can tell, there seems to be one vote against and several votes for a move. Let's just come to a consensus already. I am willing to go along with whatever decision is made even if I don't agree with. Please, let's just finish this. --Eruhildo 05:11, 13 July 2007 (UTC)


 * This is not a vote; read WP:RM. The process is due to finish on the 15th at around 06:51 (UTC). --Stemonitis 06:09, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
 * As a compromise, I suggest making Angband redirect to Angband (disambiguation). Uthanc 11:56, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
 * How do you figure that we should discuss until the 15th, Stemonitis? I wouldn't mind discussing until then; i'm just curious where you got that date.
 * He seems to be asserting that the process must take 5 days -- no such requirement exists in reality -- and it seems that notwithstanding my original post was made back in April and that the original supporting comments were made starting 3 July, he's setting the time for the start of the process to the beginning of his own involvement. Why that should necessarily be the case I don't know. I'm not sure where the 0651z time comes from; it doesn't correspond to anything in the foregoing.


 * Meh. There are no deadlines here and there's no reason to hurry. TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:12, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Thus far--
 * Supports move as articulated above by TCC: TCC, Uthanc, Eruhildo, Fang Aili, Ryecatcher773, Súrendil
 * Opposes move: Stemonitis
 * Corrections and addendums welcome. --Fang Aili talk 14:00, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose per WP:DAB. Which is original and derivative is not important for disambiguation. There are two things called Angband, a place in a fictional world and a computer game in the real world, and I don't think the former has 'clearly dominant usage'. --Kusunose
 * Though I believe the book one is dominant (and thus would prefer a move), we'll only go in circles arguing over the dominance of either usage. To reiterate my compromise proposal:
 * Redirect Angband to Angband (disambiguation) for now. That way neither usage gets "primary" article space.Uthanc 11:56, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
 * When there's no primary topic, the disambiguation page should be located at the plain title with no "(disambiguation)" per WP:DAB. --Kusunose 01:02, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
 * No-one agrees on which is the cleary dominant primary topic, but they all agree one is. WP:IGNORE that bit. Uthanc 03:21, 15 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Whose idea was it to discuss this here anyway? How do we find someone objective to close this? I thought WP:RM was the place for this sort of thing? Someone ask over there and get this request closed already! :-) Carcharoth 01:35, 17 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia's guidelines on this are fairly simple. If one usage is vastly more likely to be intended by a person typing the term in a link or search box then the term should go directly to that usage. Otherwise it should go to a disambiguation page. There are currently 61 pages linked to the computer game and 103 to the fictional location. Of the 30 linked to Angband itself a bare majority seem to be intended for the fictional location and about a quarter each for the game and those actually intended for the disambig page. Thus, the location is clearly more frequently linked, but not overwhelmingly so. Which term users are more likely to search for cannot be quantified so precisely and is subject to interpretation. I think the argument that most people searching on the game know of the existence of the fictional location in the stories is accurate - and thus that they would not be surprised to get the location. However, again neither destination seems overwhelmingly more likely to be searched for... a substantial number of people will come to Wikipedia looking for information on each. I wouldn't object to Angband being for the fictional location as that seems overall the more widely known/linked, but practically I think the 'most proper' result is likely to have Angband as a disambiguation page (as it is now). I can't really see a case for going directly to the game. --CBD 16:35, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Beregond

 * There are two Beregonds, one described in Beregond (Middle-earth) and the other in Beregond. But they both lived on Middle Earth. The current above suggestion is "Beregond → Beregond (Steward); Beregond (Middle-earth) → Beregond. But I would suggest Beregond (Middle-earth) → Beregond (palace guard), and let plain Beregond be a disambig page. Anthony Appleyard 08:59, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The main Boromir article is about the guy who got shot by arrows. There are other Boromirs but that guy is much more prominent. Same goes for Beregond (Middle-earth). I say he should go to Beregond (for as we know, he's quite significant/prominent in the original RotK, together w/ son Bergil) Uthanc 13:51, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Article was moved. Carcharoth 09:52, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Hoax pages

 * see above Uthanc 15:18, 5 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Ierleaf - According to this, C. Tolkien writes the Encyclopedia of Arda.
 * Atasarias - not directly a Tolkien hoax article, but read...
 * Perhaps we should have our own Bad Jokes and Other Deleted Nonsense? Is it against the rules? Uthanc 15:18, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

New deletion stuff
See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Middle-earth. Been away for a while, trying to get back into the swing of things round this WikiProject, and I find that Middle-earth in popular culture got deleted! :-( From memory, it was unsourced, but it was the beginnings of an article on the subject, and contrary to what the people at the AfD said, there have been studies on this topic. Carcharoth 09:55, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * A mirror copy of the 'Middle-earth in popular culture' article can be seen here. Carcharoth 11:35, 5 July 2007 (UTC)