Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/1st Div RFC

RFC: 1st Division, 1st Armoured Division, 1st Infantry Division (UK)
Which of the following histories of British divisions indicated as "1st" should be accepted?

A.
 * 1st Division (1809–1814) > 1st Division (1815) > 1st Division (1854–1856) > 1st Division (multiple points through late 1800s on and off) > 1st Division (1899–1900) > 1st Division (1902-1918, division renamed Western Division in Germany) > 1st Division (1919, division reformed in England-until renamed) > 1st Infantry Division (at least 1939 - until 1950s) > 1st Division (1950s-1960, when disbanded in England) > 1st Division (1960 division reformed in Germany–mid 70s) > 1st Armoured Division (mid-70s–1993 and disbanded) > 1st (UK) Armoured Division (1993–2014) > 1st (UK) Division (2014-present)
 * 1st Armoured Divison (1937-1945) and then another 1st Armoured Division (1947)

B.
 * 1st Division (1809–1814) > 1st Division (1815) > 1st Division (1854–1856) > 1st Division (multiple points through late 1800s on and off) > 1st Division (1899–1900) > 1st Division (1902-1918)> 1st Division (1919-until renamed) 1st Infantry Division (-until 1960, existed simultaneously with 1st Armoured Division during Second World War.) Last confirmed existence 1960.
 * 1st Division (1960–1976) possibly aligned with 1st Infantry Division (all divisions infantry unless specified otherwise, would be the reasoning).
 * 1st Armoured Division: 1937-1945, existed simultaneously with 1st Infantry Division; 1947, 1976-2014 with a brief consolidation/amalgamation in 1993, lost its armoured character in July 2014 as became a headquarters for light brigades, but retained the lineage, especially visible in parenting former 4th and 7th Armoured Brigades. Continues in existence.

Instructions Enter A or B, with a brief statement, in the Survey. You may engage in back-and-forth discussion in the Threaded Discussion section.

Supporting Case for A

 * The division itself:
 * Twitter post stating the division celebrated Peninsular Day, when it was founded in 1809. Not just a birthday tweet, the divisional headquarter staff attended a service.
 * Wilson, P (1985) The First Division 1809-1985: A Short Illustrated History, 1st Armoured Division, Viersen
 * Wilson, P (1993?) The First Division 1809-1993: An Illustrated History (2nd Edition), 1st Division, Hereford?
 * The British Army's website has claimed for, at least 20-years, that the current division was founded in 1809:
 * Current version
 * 2007 version the website, as referenced on the article's talkpage at the time
 * 2001 version of the website, which is the oldest available that I have found. This also makes a claim of a link with Germany, based off the division containing German troops in the 19th Century
 * NATO's Allied Rapid Reaction Corps website:
 * Stated the division, when based in Germany, has a history stretching back to 1809. It also noted the amalgamation of the 1st Infantry and 1st Armoured Division's insignia into its current form
 * Imperial War Museum:
 * Explains the insignia used by the 1st Infantry Division was used post-war by the 1st Division, including when it was part of BAOR
 * Explains that the 1st Division insignia was maintained through to the 80s. After the division was renamed the 1st Armoured Division, the GOC adopted the 1st Armoured Division insignia but merged it with the 1st Division's existing insignia to create the current blended design
 * Army Notes, Royal United Services Institution journal:
 * States that that the 1st Division was disbanded in the UK in June 1960, the title was transferred to be used within BAOR, and the 5th Division was renamed 1st Division
 * The London Gazette:
 * Gregson was appointed Maj-Gen of 1 Infantry Division in 1955
 * Gregson relinquishes 1 Division in 1959, Hobbs appointed to command of 1 Division This also presents evidence that the 1st Infantry Division dropped the "infantry" part of the title at some point between 55–59.
 * Hobbs relinquishes command of 1 Division in June 1960, and Jolly takes command of 1 Division in July Per Army Notes, for example, this highlights Hobbs as being the final commander of 1st Division in England, and Jolly as the first commander of the 1st Division on reforming in Germany.
 * Various secondary sources that reference the division reforming and not distinguishing between two different formations:
 * Lord and Watson, The Royal Corps of Signals, p. 25, no distinction made between the formation before 1960 and thereafter
 * Watson and Rinaldi, The British Army in Germany: An Organizational History 1947-2004, a self-published source/does not meet WP:RS, does not distinguish between the pre June 1960 formation and the one formed in July 1960
 * McNish, Messenger, Bray (2000), Iron Division: The History of the 3rd Division 1809-2000, p. 151: references the 1st Division as being reformed in Germany, after the 3rd Division took over their role in the UK.
 * Colin Mackie:
 * List of commanding officers from 1902 to present Mackie, while his work is unsourced and would not be used in the article, has been recognized for the lists he compiles. He lists the commanding officers for the 1st Division from 1902 to present (1st Div, 1st Inf, 1st Div, 1st Arm, 1st (UK)). Commanding officers of the 1st Armoured Division (1937-1947) are listed separately.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 01:25, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Supporting Case for B

 * Charles Heyman
 * Heyman is a defense analyst and a retired British Army major. His regularly updated guide on the British Army (example) and websites associated with him, state that the current division was formed in 1940. This argument has been made since as far back as at least the 1997/8 edition of his work.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 01:22, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Threaded Discussion

 * I would argue that not only do the sources not support the status quo, they (while acknowledging that the likes of the self-published would not be used in the articles) outright state the current division is in a lineage with the one formed in 1809. A variety of sources discuss the 1st Infantry Division/1st Division and the current formation as the same entity.
 * I apologize for any potential 'short hand' descriptions or interpretations of the above sources, and ask that editors read them to see what they say.
 * I note that in 1942, the 1st Division was converted into a mixed division: a concept to try and find a middle ground between infantry and armor. When reformed in July 1960, the formation controlled armoured formations before the name subsequent name change to "armoured division". The current formation now controls only infantry brigades.
 * I highlight that several of the sources above, and additional sources not cited, contradict several points made by Heyman. Per Joslen, the compiler of the official order of battle for the British Army during the Second World War, we know that the 1st Armoured Division existed prior to 1940 (it was just renamed that year). Joslen also informs us that this division was disbanded in 1945. Heyman states it carried on existing. He does not explain/discuss the Cold War period, does not support the 1st (UK) Division being formed in 1960 or the 1st Infantry Division/1st Division ceasing to exist in 1960 etc. I understand, per wiki policy, that we are not here to interpret the sources and rather just indicate what they state. I would argue that the rest of the sources outweigh this one. I would also conceded that changes to article should include this opposing perspective in a note.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 02:04, 6 November 2021 (UTC)