Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/Archive 46

Sieges by country on CFD
I've just put up a group nomination to rename the (newly created) sub-categories of Category:Sieges by country to match our existing naming convention; comments there would be very welcome! Kirill Lokshin 00:10, 15 December 2006 (UTC)


 * *sigh* And this appears to be going over like a lead balloon. :-( Kirill Lokshin 10:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
 * It's a submarine. The critics have some points perhaps we should slightly change the category into: Sieges conducted by Foo. Wandalstouring 11:15, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Or simply "Sieges by X"? But that would only apply to the besieger, not to the besieged.  To do the second, we'd need something like "Sieges conducted against X", which is a pretty messy category name.
 * The alternative, perhaps, would be to avoid the besieger/besieged distinction, but move to a different term that couldn't be confused with particular events. "Sieges involving X", possibly, or "Sieges participated in by X" (although the second one is unpleasantly long).  If we wanted to, we could then mirror the syntax up the category tree (e.g. "Battles involving X", "Wars involving X", etc.); this wouldn't be possible if we had different category names for the attacking and defending sides of a siege. Kirill Lokshin 12:24, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
 * CfD seem to have been a rather contentious place lately. If we aren't going to be able to implement "Sieges of" in accordance with the naming convention, I would vote for "Sieges involving," as it seems like a reasonable alternative. Carom 14:44, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yep. It's bizarre how things that have been uncontroversially used for years suddenly become impossible to push through because of either bureaucratic red tape ("but it's not on the official naming convention list!") or general resistance on CFD (in arbitrary cases, no less—I've seen a nomination fail when an identical one had passed a few days before).  I'm somewhat surprised that nobody has complained that the "Battles of France" category should contain Battle of France and nothing else. ;-)
 * More seriously: I suspect, given how things are going, that a mass conversion of everything to "X involving Y" will wind up being the most pleasant option available to us (that will both standardize the names and avoid the whole participant/location mess to some extent). Kirill Lokshin 18:26, 15 December 2006 (UTC)


 * So, if this nomination fails, would renaming everything to "X involving Y" (e.g. "Battles involving France", "Sieges involving the United Kingdom", "Wars involving Italy", etc.) be workable? Or is there some better terminology that we could adopt? Kirill Lokshin 02:27, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Some possible alternatives (all longer and probably no better):
 * "X participated in by Y" (e.g "Battles participated in by France", "Sieges participated in by the United Kingdom", "Wars participated in by Italy")
 * "X fought by Y" (e.g "Battles fought by France", "Sieges fought by the United Kingdom", "Wars fought by Italy")
 * Any others? Kirill Lokshin 02:58, 17 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I would support "X involving Y." It might, ultimately, be a better convention than the current one, as it makes clear the preference for categorization by participant rather than location. Carom 20:09, 17 December 2006 (UTC)


 * True, that. It'll be a somewhat unusual name, though; hopefully the CFD passerby won't balk on it for that reason. ;-) Kirill Lokshin 03:27, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, it wouldn't be CfD if someone didn't object... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Carom (talk • contribs)

List of Norwegian battles
List of Norwegian battles has a lot of red links to battles needing creation, ranging from the year 900 to 1814. If anyone needs some inspiration. :) Inge 10:17, 15 December 2006 (UTC)


 * We have a requested articles departement or you can try to set up a task force. Furthermore there is the possibility to translate from the Norwegian wiki (+ you can directly search for others capable of Norwegian and possibly interested in history). Wandalstouring 10:34, 15 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Going on the task force idea, I don't think that a Norwegian task force would work but how about a Scandanavian one? Kyriakos 02:56, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Would be easily doable if there's enough editor interest for it, I think. Kirill Lokshin 09:57, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Looking through the member list, there seems to be a fair amount of users intrested in Scandanavia. Kyriakos 21:48, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Dagger Icon †
Every now and then someone will ask me on a talk page, "What does that dagger icon in the infobox mean?" Some of you have probably handled similar inquiries. There should really be a way for people to find out without having to ask or having to go on a long search. Perhaps some of you computer whizzes could come up with something like how the star in the upper corner of Featured Articles works: you click it and it takes you to Featured Articles, you hover and it tells you what it means. Perhaps clicking on the dagger icon could take you to killed in action (sure, it's a crappy article right now). Similarly, the white flag icon might take you to surrender (military) or prisoner of war. Alternately, a key could be included in the infobox, as I've experimented with here, but that adds clutter and is therefore less desirable. —Kevin 20:52, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I've created KIA and POW; they can be used in place of the raw icons (and should be given with no space before them, as they already include a non-breaking space. Kirill Lokshin 21:18, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Fiddling with it some more: looks like using the actual flag image in the template breaks apart the surrounding text in certain circumstances. I've replaced it with a character that looks sort of like a white flag, and I think it's still legible; but any comments would be very welcome! Kirill Lokshin 21:41, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Linking the dagger to kia is no good idea because it is used no matter what the reason of death was. creating a page with redirect and linking appropriately is no problem. So does anyone object linking the dagger icon to death or are there other suggestions? Wandalstouring 02:27, 17 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmm, I was under the impression that the infoboxes only indicated KIA (or essentially KIA) deaths; is that not the case? (Or do you mean to make a distinction between KIA and people who died of their wounds, and so forth?)  We could concievably link to an appropriate section on Casualty (person) in the long term; but that article doesn't go into any detail at the moment. Kirill Lokshin 02:30, 17 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Many wounded in action died shortly afterwards from infections and are also counted as casualties of the battle in ancient source, but they are not KIA (Sometimes they were killed by comrades after the fight to avoid a slow and painful death.). Wandalstouring 16:34, 17 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Ah, ok. Feel free to change the link of the icon to whatever seems to be the most appropriate article, in that case. Kirill Lokshin 18:10, 17 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for creating those templates, Kirill. Good work, as always.
 * There's an easy fix to address Wandalstouring's point: on those (presumably uncommon) occassions when "killed in action" does not accurately describe the death of a commander listed in the infobox, use the dagger but "pipe trick" it to point to a more appropriate article, such as Casualty (person). Like this: General Bob †. —Kevin 20:33, 17 December 2006 (UTC)


 * It would actually be easier to just work the pipe trick into the template, then; e.g., which generates General Bob.  This allows us to centralize everything through the templates. Kirill Lokshin 20:40, 17 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Well hells bells, they don't pay me enough around here to know anything about pipe tricking a template. Cool. —Kevin 20:43, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Battle of Yawata
After creating the article on the Battle of Yawata, I learned that there is very little information on the battles of the Muromachi period. Please take a look at it. --Ineffable3000 21:23, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
 * What about asking the Japanese military history task force and not lots of people who don't know what you're talking about? Thanks. Wandalstouring 02:23, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Flags
What is wrong with flags in battleboxes?No explanation is give,I might have to change that if i do not get one.
 * Threats will get you nowhere.--chris.lawson 15:58, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Well will you please explain it to me?Something it seems you just won't do83.71.39.97 16:05, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The tradition of putting small flags next to the combatants is an old one but has been inconsistently applied and was for some reason frowned upon in the Project guide. My thoughts on this have varied over time. I'm now quite in favour small (22px) flags next to the combatants, which often give a little contrast, especially with unusual combatants (i.e. [[Image:Flag of the Second Spanish Republic.svg|22px]] Second Spanish Republic, [[Image:Flag of Spain (1945 - 1977).svg|22px]] Nationalist Spain). However, people have a habit of going a little crazy with this, slamming 40px or even 70px flags and countless smaller ones next to every commander. Albrecht 16:13, 17 December 2006 (UTC)


 * As far as I'm concerned, I don't really care one way or another. I think it does look a little cleaner without them, but my main point in sticking steadfastly to the recommendation is to inspire some discussion here about whether or not the recommendation truly reflects consensus of people involved in this Wikiproject. As I'm not particularly involved here (nor do I have much desire to be), I'll abstain from further discussion. I do, however, expect that people will respect consensus once a clear consensus has been established.--chris.lawson 16:20, 17 December 2006 (UTC)


 * The existing guidelines represent a consensus. Wandalstouring 16:34, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't quite see how you imagine there's a community consensus given the insane number of flags that appear in the Infoboxes these days. And considering that this issue was never subject to discussion or vote, I think you're being a little disingenuous. Albrecht 16:47, 17 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Mmm, the obvious answer is that flags are problematic, for several reasons:
 * There is a long history of people making mistakes and adding ahistorical flags, which are entirely incorrect for the actual battle in question.
 * As Albrecht mentioned, some flags are added at a very large size, which creates an unpleasantly large infobox.
 * Sometimes, flags are only available for some of the combatants; this causes an inconsistent appearance.
 * More generally, any insertion of images into that field causes layout problems if the lines get wrapped. In addition, the images usually don't align properly with the text.
 * Many flag images, particularly historical ones, are not available under a free license; their use as icons in infoboxes is considered "decorative" and forbidden by the fair use criteria.
 * Hence, the note that "the use of flag icons is not recommended". Note that this doesn't mean that they're forbidden; we've generally been extremely liberal when editors (who know how to use them properly) have used flag icons in their own articles.  But, if you (a) aren't sure of how to use them or (b) don't really care one way or the other, it's suggested that you avoid them and save yourself—and us—the trouble of trying to apply them in a situation where they don't really work too well. Kirill Lokshin 18:07, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I think Kirill has the right idea here, as is his custom. Points #1 and #3 resonate especially. I wasn't aware the images caused display problems; I've checked with many broswers and settings and, providing they were of the right size, the layout always looked fine. But obviously I can't favour something that would distract the reader from the article, which of course is immensely more important than the Infobox. In fact, as my edits show, I've been pretty stringent in managing flags and dealing with out-of-control cases. I just think they've got potential for delivering a powerful syntactic punch on the cheap. Consider, [[Image:US_flag_13_stars_–_Betsy_Ross.svg|22px]] Thirteen States v. [[Image:Grand Union Flag.svg|22px]] Loyalists. Albrecht 19:40, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
 * It's hard to see the details in these flags. In case you feel this helps someone and you use it properly, OK. Personally I doubt 22px is a good idea if you have anything but a tricolore or other simple designs. Bigger icons would totally disturb the layout and draw too much attention to the infoboxes. Wandalstouring 21:53, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Another unexpected CFD nom
Somebody has apparently nominated much of the Category:Military units and formations by type tree for deletion; comment would be very welcome! Kirill Lokshin 20:50, 17 December 2006 (UTC)


 * And one more expected one (already linked from the announcement template) that could use more comments as well. Kirill Lokshin 21:19, 17 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Some more comments on the latter nomination would be helpful, if anyone has some free time. Thanks! Kirill Lokshin 01:55, 21 December 2006 (UTC)


 * As a sidenote, the whole CfD process is becoming rather tiresome. Carom 02:03, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Roman-Spartan War
I am not a member of this WikiProject, but have received angry comments as to failing Roman-Spartan War for Good Article status; which I wholly stand by.

A user has claimed that the Military History A-class standard is higher than that of GA status and thus it should have passed.

I strongly disagree per my comments at Talk:Roman-Spartan War and User talk:Yannismarou.

This article has many problems and has a grand-total of four references, several POV statements and alot of poor English grammar. Given this, I would urge members of this project to raise their standards for granting articles an A-class as other projects also have much higher standards.

In short can we please reconsider the marking system here and for this article as some users are evidently taking this grading system very seriously. Thanks, Jhamez84 21:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Let's see, point by point:
 * Well written: well, that's a somewhat subjective matter; but, in any case, we've specifically chosen to exempt the A-Class review from consideration of mild stylistic issues. Copyediting may, indeed, be appropriate.
 * Factually accurate: the number of sources is in no way an indication of an article's accuracy or lack thereof. If you wish to take issue with an article's referencing, it's expected that you, at the very least, name other significant sources which ought to be consulted.  If you are unable do so, then the article may already use the full range of available historical material, but, in any case, you are probably not in the best position to judge its accuracy.
 * Broad in coverage: again a somewhat subjective stylistic issue; the overview material should generally be in broader articles on the period, with articles on specific conflicts being somewhat more restricted in scope. But this can, admittedly, be debated.
 * Neutral point of view: historical articles aim to present the opinions of published historians; this is not entirely incompatible with being judgemental, if historians themselves are so. In any case, I fail to see a significant NPOV violation in the statement you cite, as it seems to be how the episode is treated in the sources.
 * Images: even FA does not require images (and will certainly settle for a limited number of them); that the GA reviewers should presume to do so is frankly galling.
 * In short, I think the A-Class review process is working precisely as intended here; we have successfuly identified a high-quality military history article without having to satisfy the arbitrary demands of a GA process that seems to (a) lack an understanding of how military history articles are written and sourced and (b) have an over-inflated opinion of GA status itself.
 * (It should be pointed out, incidentally, that the only other WikiProject to even have a formal review for A-Class status is WP:TROP; all the others, as far as I know, allow the tag to be applied by random reviewers.) Kirill Lokshin 21:43, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm quite surprised by this. Perhaps I am being too strict in my reviews - though do not think this is a bad thing. I believe Roman-Spartan War has been granted A-class with rather liberal understanding of the various grading systems, but respect this. However thanks for pointing out that there are some outstanding issues, particularly with regards to copyediting which was may strongest objection. I look forward to the article being improved. Jhamez84 22:19, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

WPMILHIST Announcements
For anyone curious, I've made some changes to the layout of the template, including a more useful "simple" version that links explicitly to the full one. I've also replaced the instance on the main project page with the simple version, as it reduces the page size by about a third. I'm not sure whether we still need the "Skip to TOC" bar at the top now that the template has been shrunk, though.

Comments would be very welcome! Kirill Lokshin 04:16, 19 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I like it, this is kinder on my internet connection and does not take as long to load. TomStar81 (Talk) 04:53, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Muslim military history?
Probably a stupid question, but does any task force deal with Islamic military history? 207.160.66.129 15:37, 19 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Not "Muslim" military history per se, although a variety of other task forces cover aspects of it. I don't necessarily think that would be a good idea for one either; while the military history of the Islamic conquests would be a good topic for a task force, "Muslim military history"—which would include, presumably, anything done by Muslims, rather than the Islamic state (Caliphate, etc.) in particular—would be as unworkable as "Christian military history" would be as a scope. Kirill Lokshin 16:14, 19 December 2006 (UTC)


 * No, but actually we have no military task force for any religious group. The African military history task force deals with a large number of Islamic countries (+ the Islamic conquest in Africa). Likely the Indian military history task force also deals with the military history of Muslims on the Indian subcontinent. The Medieval warfare task force is about all from 500BC (~100BH) to 1500BC(~900AH) and isn't bound to any regional borders. There is no task force explicitly covering Central Asia or the Gulf for example. Perhaps the Muslim conquest could be covered by one task force. Furthermore the recent global conflict of diverse groups of Islamic faith with many Western nations and others could really benefit from a task force. If you go through our list of editors you will find several editors writing on different aspects of Islamic military history. We can create any task force if you provide a clear definition for the scope and enough interested participants sign up. Wandalstouring 16:26, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Mass renaming of by-country categories
In light of the fact that the current nomination for Category:Sieges by country seems to have gone down the drain as far as maintaining the "X of Y" convention is concerned, and the discussion above hasn't come up with any better term than "involving", I'd like to propose a mass renaming of battle, operation, and war categories to use it. The main benefits would be:
 * 1) Create a consistent naming scheme across all such categories.
 * 2) Make more explicit the fact that the categories are set up by participants, not by location (this has gotten to the point where I've written up a FAQ about it).
 * 3) Resolve the concern raised in the current nomination that the "X of Y" terminology could overlap with the normal naming of particular events.

The (very) big list:


 * Category:Sieges by country


 * Category:Sieges in England to Category:Sieges involving England
 * Category:Sieges in France to Category:Sieges involving France
 * Category:Sieges in Germany to Category:Sieges involving Germany
 * Category:Sieges in Ireland to Category:Sieges involving Ireland
 * Category:Sieges in Japan to Category:Sieges involving Japan
 * Category:Sieges in Korea to Category:Sieges involving Korea
 * Category:Sieges in Sweden to Category:Sieges involving Sweden
 * Category:Sieges in the United Kingdom to Category:Sieges involving the United Kingdom


 * Category:Naval battles by country


 * Category:Naval battles of the Abbasid Caliphate to Category:Naval battles involving the Abbasid Caliphate
 * Category:Naval battles of Aragon to Category:Naval battles involving Aragon
 * Category:Naval battles of Argentina to Category:Naval battles involving Argentina
 * Category:Naval battles of Athens to Category:Naval battles involving Athens
 * Category:Naval battles of Austria to Category:Naval battles involving Austria
 * Category:Naval battles of Brandenburg to Category:Naval battles involving Brandenburg
 * Category:Naval battles of Brazil to Category:Naval battles involving Brazil
 * Category:Naval battles of the Byzantine Empire to Category:Naval battles involving the Byzantine Empire
 * Category:Naval battles of Canada to Category:Naval battles involving Canada
 * Category:Naval battles of Castile to Category:Naval battles involving Castile
 * Category:Naval battles of Chile to Category:Naval battles involving Chile
 * Category:Naval battles of China to Category:Naval battles involving China
 * Category:Naval battles of Cyprus to Category:Naval battles involving Cyprus
 * Category:Naval battles of Denmark to Category:Naval battles involving Denmark
 * Category:Naval battles of the Duchy of Gaeta to Category:Naval battles involving the Duchy of Gaeta
 * Category:Naval battles of the Duchy of Naples to Category:Naval battles involving the Duchy of Naples
 * Category:Naval battles of England to Category:Naval battles involving England
 * Category:Naval battles of France to Category:Naval battles involving France
 * Category:Naval battles of Genoa to Category:Naval battles involving Genoa
 * Category:Naval battles of Germany to Category:Naval battles involving Germany
 * Category:Naval battles of Greece to Category:Naval battles involving Greece
 * Category:Naval battles of Gujarat to Category:Naval battles involving Gujarat
 * Category:Naval battles of the Hanseatic League to Category:Naval battles involving the Hanseatic League
 * Category:Naval battles of the Holy Roman Empire to Category:Naval battles involving the Holy Roman Empire
 * Category:Naval battles of India to Category:Naval battles involving India
 * Category:Naval battles of Iran to Category:Naval battles involving Iran
 * Category:Naval battles of Ireland to Category:Naval battles involving Ireland
 * Category:Naval battles of Israel to Category:Naval battles involving Israel
 * Category:Naval battles of Italy to Category:Naval battles involving Italy
 * Category:Naval battles of Japan to Category:Naval battles involving Japan
 * Category:Naval battles of the Knights Hospitaller to Category:Naval battles involving the Knights Hospitaller
 * Category:Naval battles of Korea to Category:Naval battles involving Korea
 * Category:Naval battles of the Mamluk Sultanate to Category:Naval battles involving the Mamluk Sultanate
 * Category:Naval battles of the Mongols to Category:Naval battles involving the Mongols
 * Category:Naval battles of the Kingdom of Naples to Category:Naval battles involving the Kingdom of Naples
 * Category:Naval battles of the Netherlands to Category:Naval battles involving the Netherlands
 * Category:Naval battles of Norway to Category:Naval battles involving Norway
 * Category:Naval battles of the Ottoman Empire to Category:Naval battles involving the Ottoman Empire
 * Category:Naval battles of the Papal States to Category:Naval battles involving the Papal States
 * Category:Naval battles of Peru to Category:Naval battles involving Peru
 * Category:Naval battles of Pisa to Category:Naval battles involving Pisa
 * Category:Naval battles of Poland to Category:Naval battles involving Poland
 * Category:Naval battles of Portugal to Category:Naval battles involving Portugal
 * Category:Naval battles of Prussia to Category:Naval battles involving Prussia
 * Category:Naval battles of the Roman Empire to Category:Naval battles involving the Roman Empire
 * Category:Naval battles of Russia to Category:Naval battles involving Russia
 * Category:Naval battles of Savoy to Category:Naval battles involving Savoy
 * Category:Naval battles of Spain to Category:Naval battles involving Spain
 * Category:Naval battles of Sparta to Category:Naval battles involving Sparta
 * Category:Naval battles of Sweden to Category:Naval battles involving Sweden
 * Category:Naval battles of Syria to Category:Naval battles involving Syria
 * Category:Naval battles of Travancore to Category:Naval battles involving Travancore
 * Category:Naval battles of Tuscany to Category:Naval battles involving Tuscany
 * Category:Naval battles of the Umayyad Caliphate to Category:Naval battles involving the Umayyad Caliphate
 * Category:Naval battles of the United Kingdom to Category:Naval battles involving the United Kingdom
 * Category:Naval battles of the United Provinces to Category:Naval battles involving the United Provinces
 * Category:Naval battles of the United States to Category:Naval battles involving the United States
 * Category:Naval battles of Venezuela to Category:Naval battles involving Venezuela
 * Category:Naval battles of Venice to Category:Naval battles involving Venice
 * Category:Naval battles of the Vikings to Category:Naval battles involving the Vikings


 * Category:Wars by country


 * Category:Wars of Afghanistan to Category:Wars involving Afghanistan
 * Category:Wars of Africa to Category:Wars involving Africa
 * Category:Wars of ancient Greece to Category:Wars involving ancient Greece
 * Category:Wars of Angola to Category:Wars involving Angola
 * Category:Wars of Argentina to Category:Wars involving Argentina
 * Category:Wars of Armenia to Category:Wars involving Armenia
 * Category:Wars of Austria to Category:Wars involving Austria
 * Category:Wars of Azerbaijan to Category:Wars involving Azerbaijan
 * Category:Wars of the Balkans to Category:Wars involving the Balkans
 * Category:Wars of Bangladesh to Category:Wars involving Bangladesh
 * Category:Wars of Bavaria to Category:Wars involving Bavaria
 * Category:Wars of Bolivia to Category:Wars involving Bolivia
 * Category:Wars of Brazil to Category:Wars involving Brazil
 * Category:Wars of Bulgaria to Category:Wars involving Bulgaria
 * Category:Wars of Burma to Category:Wars involving Burma
 * Category:Wars of the Byzantine Empire to Category:Wars involving the Byzantine Empire
 * Category:Wars of Cambodia to Category:Wars involving Cambodia
 * Category:Wars of Canada to Category:Wars involving Canada
 * Category:Wars of Carthage to Category:Wars involving Carthage
 * Category:Wars of Chile to Category:Wars involving Chile
 * Category:Wars of China to Category:Wars involving China
 * Category:Wars of Cuba to Category:Wars involving Cuba
 * Category:Wars of Cyprus to Category:Wars involving Cyprus
 * Category:Wars of Denmark to Category:Wars involving Denmark
 * Category:Wars of Ecuador to Category:Wars involving Ecuador
 * Category:Wars of Egypt to Category:Wars involving Egypt
 * Category:Wars of Arab Egypt to Category:Wars involving Arab Egypt
 * Category:Wars of ancient Egypt to Category:Wars involving ancient Egypt
 * Category:Wars of England to Category:Wars involving England
 * Category:Wars of Eritrea to Category:Wars involving Eritrea
 * Category:Wars of Estonia to Category:Wars involving Estonia
 * Category:Wars of Ethiopia to Category:Wars involving Ethiopia
 * Category:Wars of Finland to Category:Wars involving Finland
 * Category:Wars of Florence to Category:Wars involving Florence
 * Category:Wars of France to Category:Wars involving France
 * Category:Wars of Georgia (country) to Category:Wars involving Georgia (country)
 * Category:Wars of Germany to Category:Wars involving Germany
 * Category:Wars of Great Britain to Category:Wars involving Great Britain
 * Category:Wars of Greece to Category:Wars involving Greece
 * Category:Wars of Guatemala to Category:Wars involving Guatemala
 * Category:Wars of Hezbollah to Category:Wars involving Hezbollah
 * Category:Wars of the Holy Roman Empire to Category:Wars involving the Holy Roman Empire
 * Category:Wars of Hungary to Category:Wars involving Hungary
 * Category:Wars of India to Category:Wars involving India
 * Category:Wars of the indigenous peoples of North America to Category:Wars involving the indigenous peoples of North America
 * Category:Wars of Indonesia to Category:Wars involving Indonesia
 * Category:Wars of Iran to Category:Wars involving Iran
 * Category:Wars of Iraq to Category:Wars involving Iraq
 * Category:Wars of Ireland to Category:Wars involving Ireland
 * Category:Wars of Israel to Category:Wars involving Israel
 * Category:Wars of Italy to Category:Wars involving Italy
 * Category:Wars of Japan to Category:Wars involving Japan
 * Category:Wars of Jordan to Category:Wars involving Jordan
 * Category:Wars of Korea to Category:Wars involving Korea
 * Category:Wars of Lebanon to Category:Wars involving Lebanon
 * Category:Wars of Livonia to Category:Wars involving Livonia
 * Category:Wars of Mexico to Category:Wars involving Mexico
 * Category:Wars of Milan to Category:Wars involving Milan
 * Category:Wars of Moldova to Category:Wars involving Moldova
 * Category:Wars of the Mongols to Category:Wars involving the Mongols
 * Category:Wars of Morocco to Category:Wars involving Morocco
 * Category:Wars of the Mughal Empire to Category:Wars involving the Mughal Empire
 * Category:Wars of Mysore to Category:Wars involving Mysore
 * Category:Wars of NATO to Category:Wars involving NATO
 * Category:Wars of Namibia to Category:Wars involving Namibia
 * Category:Wars of Naples to Category:Wars involving Naples
 * Category:Wars of the Netherlands to Category:Wars involving the Netherlands
 * Category:Wars of New Zealand to Category:Wars involving New Zealand
 * Category:Wars of Norway to Category:Wars involving Norway
 * Category:Wars of the Ottoman Empire to Category:Wars involving the Ottoman Empire
 * Category:Wars of Pakistan to Category:Wars involving Pakistan
 * Category:Wars of the Papal States to Category:Wars involving the Papal States
 * Category:Wars of Paraguay to Category:Wars involving Paraguay
 * Category:Wars of Persia to Category:Wars involving Persia
 * Category:Wars of Peru to Category:Wars involving Peru
 * Category:Wars of the Philippines to Category:Wars involving the Philippines
 * Category:Wars of Poland to Category:Wars involving Poland
 * Category:Wars of Portugal to Category:Wars involving Portugal
 * Category:Wars of Prussia to Category:Wars involving Prussia
 * Category:Wars of Ancient Rome to Category:Wars involving Ancient Rome
 * Category:Wars of Kievan Rus to Category:Wars involving Kievan Rus
 * Category:Wars of Russia to Category:Wars involving Russia
 * Category:Wars of Saudi Arabia to Category:Wars involving Saudi Arabia
 * Category:Wars of Scotland to Category:Wars involving Scotland
 * Category:Wars of South Africa to Category:Wars involving South Africa
 * Category:Wars of the Soviet Union to Category:Wars involving the Soviet Union
 * Category:Wars of Spain to Category:Wars involving Spain
 * Category:Wars of Sweden to Category:Wars involving Sweden
 * Category:Wars of Switzerland to Category:Wars involving Switzerland
 * Category:Wars of Syria to Category:Wars involving Syria
 * Category:Wars of Turkey to Category:Wars involving Turkey
 * Category:Wars of the United Kingdom to Category:Wars involving the United Kingdom
 * Category:Wars of the United Provinces to Category:Wars involving the United Provinces
 * Category:Wars of the United States to Category:Wars involving the United States
 * Category:Wars of Uruguay to Category:Wars involving Uruguay
 * Category:Wars of Venice to Category:Wars involving Venice
 * Category:Wars of Vietnam to Category:Wars involving Vietnam
 * Category:Wars of Thailand to Category:Wars involving Thailand
 * Category:Wars of Yemen to Category:Wars involving Yemen


 * Category:Battles by country


 * Category:Battles of the Abbasid Caliphate to Category:Battles involving the Abbasid Caliphate
 * Category:Battles of the Achaemenid Empire to Category:Battles involving the Achaemenid Empire
 * Category:Battles of Afghanistan to Category:Battles involving Afghanistan
 * Category:Battles of Algeria to Category:Battles involving Algeria
 * Category:Battles of the Almohad Caliphate to Category:Battles involving the Almohad Caliphate
 * Category:Battles of the Anglo-Saxons to Category:Battles involving the Anglo-Saxons
 * Category:Battles of Angola to Category:Battles involving Angola
 * Category:Battles of the Apache to Category:Battles involving the Apache
 * Category:Battles of Aragon to Category:Battles involving Aragon
 * Category:Battles of the Arapaho to Category:Battles involving the Arapaho
 * Category:Battles of Argentina to Category:Battles involving Argentina
 * Category:Battles of Armenia to Category:Battles involving Armenia
 * Category:Battles of Assyria to Category:Battles involving Assyria
 * Category:Battles of Athens to Category:Battles involving Athens
 * Category:Battles of Australia to Category:Battles involving Australia
 * Category:Battles of Austria to Category:Battles involving Austria
 * Category:Battles of the Ayyubids to Category:Battles involving the Ayyubids
 * Category:Battles of the Aztec Empire to Category:Battles involving the Aztec Empire
 * Category:Battles of Babylonia to Category:Battles involving Babylonia
 * Category:Battles of Bavaria to Category:Battles involving Bavaria
 * Category:Battles of Belgium to Category:Battles involving Belgium
 * Category:Battles of Bengal to Category:Battles involving Bengal
 * Category:Battles of the Boers to Category:Battles involving the Boers
 * Category:Battles of Bohemia to Category:Battles involving Bohemia
 * Category:Battles of Bolivia to Category:Battles involving Bolivia
 * Category:Battles of Brandenburg to Category:Battles involving Brandenburg
 * Category:Battles of Brazil to Category:Battles involving Brazil
 * Category:Battles of the Britons to Category:Battles involving the Britons
 * Category:Battles of Bulgaria to Category:Battles involving Bulgaria
 * Category:Battles of Burgundy to Category:Battles involving Burgundy
 * Category:Battles of the Byzantine Empire to Category:Battles involving the Byzantine Empire
 * Category:Battles of the Canaanites to Category:Battles involving the Canaanites
 * Category:Battles of Canada to Category:Battles involving Canada
 * Category:Battles of Carthage to Category:Battles involving Carthage
 * Category:Battles of Castile to Category:Battles involving Castile
 * Category:Battles of the Cheyenne to Category:Battles involving the Cheyenne
 * Category:Battles of Chile to Category:Battles involving Chile
 * Category:Battles of China to Category:Battles involving China
 * Category:Battles of the Comanche to Category:Battles involving the Comanche
 * Category:Battles of Costa Rica to Category:Battles involving Costa Rica
 * Category:Battles of Croatia to Category:Battles involving Croatia
 * Category:Battles of Cuba to Category:Battles involving Cuba
 * Category:Battles of Cyprus to Category:Battles involving Cyprus
 * Category:Battles of the Deccan Sultanates to Category:Battles involving the Deccan Sultanates
 * Category:Battles of Denmark to Category:Battles involving Denmark
 * Category:Battles of the Duchy of Gaeta to Category:Battles involving the Duchy of Gaeta
 * Category:Battles of the Duchy of Naples to Category:Battles involving the Duchy of Naples
 * Category:Battles of Egypt to Category:Battles involving Egypt
 * Category:Battles of Arab Egypt to Category:Battles involving Arab Egypt
 * Category:Battles of ancient Egypt to Category:Battles involving ancient Egypt
 * Category:Battles of England to Category:Battles involving England
 * Category:Battles of Ethiopia to Category:Battles involving Ethiopia
 * Category:Battles of Finland to Category:Battles involving Finland
 * Category:Battles of Flanders to Category:Battles involving Flanders
 * Category:Battles of Florence to Category:Battles involving Florence
 * Category:Battles of France to Category:Battles involving France
 * Category:Battles of the Franks to Category:Battles involving the Franks
 * Category:Battles of the Gauls to Category:Battles involving the Gauls
 * Category:Battles of Genoa to Category:Battles involving Genoa
 * Category:Battles of Georgia (country) to Category:Battles involving Georgia (country)
 * Category:Battles of Germany to Category:Battles involving Germany
 * Category:Battles of the Ghaznavid Empire to Category:Battles involving the Ghaznavid Empire
 * Category:Battles of the Goths to Category:Battles involving the Goths
 * Category:Battles of Greece to Category:Battles involving Greece
 * Category:Battles of ancient Greece to Category:Battles involving ancient Greece
 * Category:Battles of Gujarat to Category:Battles involving Gujarat
 * Category:Battles of the Hanseatic League to Category:Battles involving the Hanseatic League
 * Category:Battles of Hawaii to Category:Battles involving Hawaii
 * Category:Battles of the Holy Roman Empire to Category:Battles involving the Holy Roman Empire
 * Category:Battles of Hungary to Category:Battles involving Hungary
 * Category:Battles of the Huns to Category:Battles involving the Huns
 * Category:Battles of the Inca Empire to Category:Battles involving the Inca Empire
 * Category:Battles of India to Category:Battles involving India
 * Category:Battles of British India to Category:Battles involving British India
 * Category:Battles of the Indian kingdoms to Category:Battles involving the Indian kingdoms
 * Category:Battles of Iran to Category:Battles involving Iran
 * Category:Battles of Iraq to Category:Battles involving Iraq
 * Category:Battles of Ireland to Category:Battles involving Ireland
 * Category:Battles of Israel to Category:Battles involving Israel
 * Category:Battles of Italy to Category:Battles involving Italy
 * Category:Battles of Japan to Category:Battles involving Japan
 * Category:Battles of the Kara Koyunlu to Category:Battles involving the Kara Koyunlu
 * Category:Battles of the Khazars to Category:Battles involving the Khazars
 * Category:Battles of the Khwarezmid Empire to Category:Battles involving the Khwarezmid Empire
 * Category:Battles of the Knights Hospitaller to Category:Battles involving the Knights Hospitaller
 * Category:Battles of Kongo to Category:Battles involving Kongo
 * Category:Battles of Korea to Category:Battles involving Korea
 * Category:Battles of Latvia to Category:Battles involving Latvia
 * Category:Battles of Lebanon to Category:Battles involving Lebanon
 * Category:Battles of Lithuania to Category:Battles involving Lithuania
 * Category:Battles of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania to Category:Battles involving the Grand Duchy of Lithuania
 * Category:Battles of the Lombards to Category:Battles involving the Lombards
 * Category:Battles of Macedon to Category:Battles involving Macedon
 * Category:Battles of the Maratha Empire to Category:Battles involving the Maratha Empire
 * Category:Battles of Mexico to Category:Battles involving Mexico
 * Category:Battles of Milan to Category:Battles involving Milan
 * Category:Battles of Moldavia to Category:Battles involving Moldavia
 * Category:Battles of the Mongols to Category:Battles involving the Mongols
 * Category:Battles of Morocco to Category:Battles involving Morocco
 * Category:Battles of Mozambique to Category:Battles involving Mozambique
 * Category:Battles of the Mughal Empire to Category:Battles involving the Mughal Empire
 * Category:Battles of Mysore to Category:Battles involving Mysore
 * Category:Battles of Namibia to Category:Battles involving Namibia
 * Category:Battles of the Kingdom of Naples to Category:Battles involving the Kingdom of Naples
 * Category:Battles of the Netherlands to Category:Battles involving the Netherlands
 * Category:Battles of New Zealand to Category:Battles involving New Zealand
 * Category:Battles of Nigeria to Category:Battles involving Nigeria
 * Category:Battles of the Normans to Category:Battles involving the Normans
 * Category:Battles of Norway to Category:Battles involving Norway
 * Category:Battles of the Ottoman Empire to Category:Battles involving the Ottoman Empire
 * Category:Battles of Pakistan to Category:Battles involving Pakistan
 * Category:Battles of the Papal States to Category:Battles involving the Papal States
 * Category:Battles of Paraguay to Category:Battles involving Paraguay
 * Category:Battles of Persia to Category:Battles involving Persia
 * Category:Battles of Peru to Category:Battles involving Peru
 * Category:Battles of Pisa to Category:Battles involving Pisa
 * Category:Battles of Poland to Category:Battles involving Poland
 * Category:Battles of Pontus to Category:Battles involving Pontus
 * Category:Battles of Portugal to Category:Battles involving Portugal
 * Category:Battles of Prussia to Category:Battles involving Prussia
 * Category:Battles of the Qajar Dynasty to Category:Battles involving the Qajar Dynasty
 * Category:Battles of the Rashidun Caliphate to Category:Battles involving the Rashidun Caliphate
 * Category:Battles of the Roman Empire to Category:Battles involving the Roman Empire
 * Category:Battles of the Roman Republic to Category:Battles involving the Roman Republic
 * Category:Battles of Romania to Category:Battles involving Romania
 * Category:Battles of Rome to Category:Battles involving Rome
 * Category:Battles of Kievan Rus to Category:Battles involving Kievan Rus
 * Category:Battles of Russia to Category:Battles involving Russia
 * Category:Battles of the Safavid Empire to Category:Battles involving the Safavid Empire
 * Category:Battles of the Sassanid Empire to Category:Battles involving the Sassanid Empire
 * Category:Battles of Saudi Arabia to Category:Battles involving Saudi Arabia
 * Category:Battles of Savoy to Category:Battles involving Savoy
 * Category:Battles of Saxony to Category:Battles involving Saxony
 * Category:Battles of Scotland to Category:Battles involving Scotland
 * Category:Battles of the Seleucid Empire to Category:Battles involving the Seleucid Empire
 * Category:Battles of the Seljuk Turks to Category:Battles involving the Seljuk Turks
 * Category:Battles of Serbia to Category:Battles involving Serbia
 * Category:Battles of Siena to Category:Battles involving Siena
 * Category:Battles of the Sikhs to Category:Battles involving the Sikhs
 * Category:Battles of the Sioux to Category:Battles involving the Sioux
 * Category:Battles of Slovenia to Category:Battles involving Slovenia
 * Category:Battles of South Africa to Category:Battles involving South Africa
 * Category:Battles of the Soviet Union to Category:Battles involving the Soviet Union
 * Category:Battles of Spain to Category:Battles involving Spain
 * Category:Battles of Sparta to Category:Battles involving Sparta
 * Category:Battles of Sudan to Category:Battles involving Sudan
 * Category:Battles of Sweden to Category:Battles involving Sweden
 * Category:Battles of Switzerland to Category:Battles involving Switzerland
 * Category:Battles of Syracuse to Category:Battles involving Syracuse
 * Category:Battles of Syria to Category:Battles involving Syria
 * Category:Battles of the Teutonic Knights to Category:Battles involving the Teutonic Knights
 * Category:Battles of Thailand to Category:Battles involving Thailand
 * Category:Battles of Thebes to Category:Battles involving Thebes
 * Category:Battles of the Timurid Empire to Category:Battles involving the Timurid Empire
 * Category:Battles of Travancore to Category:Battles involving Travancore
 * Category:Battles of Turkey to Category:Battles involving Turkey
 * Category:Battles of Tuscany to Category:Battles involving Tuscany
 * Category:Battles of Ukraine to Category:Battles involving Ukraine
 * Category:Battles of the Umayyad Caliphate to Category:Battles involving the Umayyad Caliphate
 * Category:Battles of the United Kingdom to Category:Battles involving the United Kingdom
 * Category:Battles of the United Provinces to Category:Battles involving the United Provinces
 * Category:Battles of the United States to Category:Battles involving the United States
 * Category:Battles of Uruguay to Category:Battles involving Uruguay
 * Category:Battles of the Vandals to Category:Battles involving the Vandals
 * Category:Battles of Venezuela to Category:Battles involving Venezuela
 * Category:Battles of Venice to Category:Battles involving Venice
 * Category:Battles of Vietnam to Category:Battles involving Vietnam
 * Category:Battles of the Vijayanagara Empire to Category:Battles involving the Vijayanagara Empire
 * Category:Battles of the Vikings to Category:Battles involving the Vikings
 * Category:Battles of Wales to Category:Battles involving Wales
 * Category:Battles of Wallachia to Category:Battles involving Wallachia
 * Category:Battles of Yugoslavia to Category:Battles involving Yugoslavia
 * Category:Battles of the Zulu to Category:Battles involving the Zulu


 * Category:Military operations by country et al.


 * Category:Military operations of Canada to Category:Military operations involving Canada
 * Category:Military operations of Germany to Category:Military operations involving Germany
 * Category:Military operations of Israel to Category:Military operations involving Israel
 * Category:Military operations of the Soviet Union to Category:Military operations involving the Soviet Union
 * Category:Military operations of Spain to Category:Military operations involving Spain
 * Category:Military operations of the United Kingdom to Category:Military operations involving the United Kingdom
 * Category:Non-combat military operations of Israel to Category:Non-combat military operations involving Israel
 * Category:Non-combat military operations of the Soviet Union to Category:Non-combat military operations involving the Soviet Union
 * Category:Non-combat military operations of the United Kingdom to Category:Non-combat military operations involving the United Kingdom
 * Category:Non-combat military operations of the United States to Category:Non-combat military operations involving the United States
 * Category:Canceled military operations of Germany to Category:Canceled military operations involving Germany
 * Category:Canceled military operations of Israel to Category:Canceled military operations involving Israel
 * Category:Canceled military operations of Spain to Category:Canceled military operations involving Spain
 * Category:Canceled military operations of the United Kingdom to Category:Canceled military operations involving the United Kingdom
 * Category:Canceled military operations of the United States to Category:Canceled military operations involving the United States

Comments? Are there any objections to this scheme, or ideas for a better one? Kirill Lokshin 17:10, 19 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't have any problems with it - and, as I mentioned above, it may be a better convention in the long run. Carom 17:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, go on. Wandalstouring 18:07, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Me neither, except I pity the poor bot that will have to do the moving.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 22:34, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Chainmail bikinis and LARP armour
I did some image research today. I was confronted with LARP armor and bikini chainmail girls while searching for Medieval armour. We currently have no clear difference between all that stuff and our serious history stuff. Somehow I feel a clear guideline for a disambiguation would help because in many people's opinion the difference between LARP and history is marginal :(. Any suggestions? (Like chainmail in popular culture/chainmail in erotic outfits)Wandalstouring 00:09, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * "Ahistorical chainmail", perhaps? (But does the stuff really need an article in its own right?) Kirill Lokshin 01:29, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Wandalstouring - were you talking aout disambiguating the images themselves? Or are you more concerned with making sure that Wikipedia articles use appropriate images? Carom 01:40, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Or even distinguishing between the two on the article level, maybe? Kirill Lokshin 01:42, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I was thinking about different possibilities and had not yet made up my mind. Actually we have no reason for not mentioning 6-ring chainmail in our articles on chainmail (100% ahistoric, but featured in many "historic films"). That was one of the first things I was aware of. The next is, even if we do make such a difference on a technical basis, how do we disambiguate from "freestyle" reenactment (LARP) using 4-ring cahinmail (but in odd styles) and serious reenactment which is our main source for accurate material (museum images are often not available).
 * This leaves several possibilities:
 * a)disambiguation within articles (historic chainmail, chainmail in LARP, chainmail in erotic underwear, etc.) and seperate selections of images for each topic
 * b)seperate articles for each topic and a clear rule on how to disambiguate (especially LARP stuff and historic stuff), but this is likely to get fooled by a load of pseudo-historic film productions. + it needs some watchdogs Wandalstouring 02:19, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't suppose Chicks In Chainmail would sound very encyclopedic. However, Chainmail fetish does ;)--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 22:32, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * "Chicks in Chainmail," huh? Thats got a nice ring to it, even if it is not encyclopedic ;) TomStar81 (Talk) 22:34, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Heheheh indeed. Fetish?! Moi?!;)--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 22:48, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Nice. Thats going into my favorites folder; I will be laughing about this for the rest of the year :) TomStar81 (Talk) 23:00, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Images would be great to illustrate articles about LARP, fandom and such, and I am sure 'fanmade armor' or something like this deserves an article. I'd expect there is a proper term for it - maybe ask at Talk:Live action role-playing game? Renaissance faire also comes to mind. Oh, and as for the art - check Bad girl art :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 23:00, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Bad girl art is now on my watchlist. Thanks ProKonsul;)--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 23:16, 20 December 2006 (UTC)