Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mixed martial arts/MMA notability/Archive 11

More facts and info
Over the holidays I was curious and did some research on the MMA notable organization discussion history by checking the archives at WT:MMA and WT:MMANOT. It seems to have been a battleground for many years. Just a couple of years ago people were clamoring that World Series of Fighting should be top tier and now nobody talks about it. Anyway, here's some relevant things I found. Papaursa was right, there was a consensus in 2016 to change the number of ranked fighters from 3 to 6 because of an increase in the number of divisions and decrease in the number of organizations since the original standards were written. I don't know why WP:MMANOT was not changed to reflect this. Maybe because it's considered an essay and WP:NMMA is the official word on notability? I also found a different discussion where consensus was that an organization needed to meet the minimum standard for at least a year because truly top tier organizations shouldn't be bouncing in and out.

I just did a count of the current Sherdog rankings. That's the top 10 for men in 8 divisions and top 10 for women in 5 divisions. For men I found that it still seems to be the UFC and everyone else. Of the 80 ranked male fighters, 73 are from the UFC. For women the counts were UFC 31, Invicta 8, Bellator 7, and Rizin 4. Five of the Invicta fighters and all of the Rizin fighters were in the atomweight division. I mention that because at previous discussions there appeared to be a feeling that a top tier organization should have ranked fighters in most, if not all, divisions. I'm not sure that's relevant but it was brought up previously.

FWIW, I also noticed that most of the previous discussions involved editors that no longer seem to be very active. Sandals1 (talk) 18:50, 9 January 2020 (UTC)


 * A discussion that should have been held before anything is whether relying on Sherdog's rankings, which are written monthly by a single writer, is worthwhile. Those rankings are far too open to bias and Fight Matrix or another ranking system would be a far superior option.JiminyFixit (talk) 17:27, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Apparently you didn't research the Sherdog site enough. The rankings are not done by a single person, although a single person writes each division's monthly summary.  On the site it says "Sherdog’s divisional and pound-for-pound rankings are compiled by a panel of Sherdog.com staff members and contributors: Tristen Critchfield, Mike Fridley, Brian Knapp, Jesse Denis, Eric Stinton, Ben Duffy, Jay Pettry, Jacob Debets, Nathan Zur, Kevin Wilson, Edward Carbajal, Jason Burgos, Guy Portman, Anthony Walker, Tudor Leonte, Mark Raymundo, Jordan Colbert, Jordan Breen, Mike Sloan, Tom Feely, Adam Martin and Joao Baptista." Given that there is no perfect method, using Sherdog's rankings has long been considered the best choice available.  If consensus was to scrap the concept of using top tier organizations, we could possibly use additional rankings (like boxing and kickboxing do), but that would require adopting the same philosophy--only top ranked fighters are notable.  That would seriously reduce the number of WP notable MMA fighters and I've not seen anyone involved with the MMA project arguing for that. Papaursa (talk) 22:55, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Comments on Proposal discussions so far
It appears that after a month none of the proposals have a clear cut consensus to either pass or fail (or even generated much input from established users). I am surprised that my proposal to add another way that MMA fighters would be notable didn't get more support. Everyone complained about wanting more MMA fighters to be notable and I provided one that I think would/could pass a discussion at WT:NSPORT.Sandals1 (talk) 16:08, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
 * It's true there seems to be a pretty even split, but I just added my comments that I would support making the Bellator men and/or women top tier if they can keep 6 fighters ranked throughout this year (although I think a better case can be made for the women). And I still would like to see the top 10 ranked fighters deemed notable regardless of promotion. Papaursa (talk) 03:20, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

Updating notability guidelines based on last consensus on number of fighters necessary to be top tier
As discussed in the notability discussions earlier this year, this should have been updated at the time of the discussion but it wasn't. I'm putting it in since it was the last consensus agreement on this topic. Anyone interested in more information can look at the discussions from earlier this year and the discussions at the time of that consensus. It's worth noting the numbers associated with each organization. Papaursa (talk) 02:23, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

moved BAMMA and Tachi Palace to defunct second tier organizations
I moved both BAMMA and Tachi Palace to defunct second tier organizations since neither organization has held an event since 2018. This was suggested by a discussion at WT:MMA. Papaursa (talk) 01:49, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Notability Issue: pancrase vs shooto
On the mma notability page, pancrase is listed as 2nd tier and shooto as first from 1989 to 2011. Yet I have not found a single bit of footage from early shooto matches and the majority of references for it an its early fighters are sherdog pages. Is shooto en 1990 notable? Cant answer that. But to say that pancrase in 1994 to 2000 wasnt as notable if not more. People like Katsuomi Inagaki, Takaku fuke and Andre van den Oetelaar wouldnt be considered notable because they fought in Pancrase in 94 to 98 instead of shooto is stupid. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jacee215 (talk • contribs) 20:58, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Im going to go ahead and say anyone with 10 pancrase fight between 1990-2000 should be considered notable. If there's any objections to this please say it.Jacee215 (talk) 03:06, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

It's that time again
We're almost in 2020. MMA:NOT has been proven, repeatedly, to be flawed and in violation of its own rules without being fixed. Bellator has consistently had enough ranked fighters to be a top tier promotion for years. They hold the bulk of ranked female featherweights outside Amanda Nunes, Megan Anderson, and Felicia Spencer. That combined with their flyweight division should at the very least ensure they are top tier for females. They also have held more than enough ranked fighters on the men's side, but this has been repeatedly ignored.

Questions regarding basing rankings off a single source (i.e. Sherdog) have continually been ignored. At this point, something needs to change otherwise the MMA area of Wikipedia becomes quite useless. The promotion has a title fight this evening where the challenger has over five fights in Bellator, three fights on The Ultimate Fighter, yet doesn't qualify for a Wikipedia page, while an 0-3 wonder in the UFC does.

Unless a valid objection (and that does not include I just don't like it) can be raised, I propose including Bellator women under top tier regardless of year, as they have had multiple ranked fighters at 125 and 145 for years now.

Discussions on the men's side, ONE, and RIZIN can be addressed after this small step is seen to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.121.224.177 (talk) 22:44, 21 December 2019 (UTC)


 * I last commented on this in March of this year when I quoted a 2016 discussion that looked at all the organizations from scratch. Here's what we found then. "Using the proposal above for organizational notability, I thought I'd see what the counts were for the various organizations. For the men I used Sherdog's top 10 (8 divisions) and for the women I used the top 5 in the Unified Women's rankings (5 divisions). The difference, which is the same methodology as was used previously, was because of the greater depth in men's fighting. As was done previously, the organization used is based on who promoted a fighter's last fight. Here are the results:

Men: UFC 71, Bellator 4, WSOF 2, OneFC 1, KSW 1, EFN 1 Women: UFC 10, Invicta 8, Bellator 3, XFC 2, Deep Jewels 2 Women (using top 10): UFC 17, Invicta 17, Bellator 4, Deep Jewels 4, XFC 3, others 5"

The most recently accepted proposal on notability, done a couple of years ago, changed the number of top 10 fighters required to show an organization is top tier from 3 to 6. Meeting this criteria doesn't automatically make an organization top tier, it still needs to be discussed. However, it is considered a minimum requirement. Also remember that the men's and women's divisions are considered separately.

If someone would like to do the work and make the counts again, I would consider objective evidence, but not the WP:ILIKEIT claims that have been put forth previously. Papaursa (talk) 05:26, 24 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Using the Unified Women's Mixed Martial Arts rankings you cited, Bellator has 5 fighters in the top 10 at Women's Featherweight:

Cris Cyborg (2), Julia Budd (3), Arlene Blencowe (4), Jessy Miele (7), Talita Nogueira (8)

At flyweight, Ilima-Lei Macfarlane (2) and Liz Carmouche (3) are ranked.

I see no reason to shorten women's MMA to top five instead of top ten, the depth argument is far from sound at this point and feels more like WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Either way, Bellator has 5 fighters in the top five of their women's MMA divisions. Given the proposal was to start by allowing Bellator MMA's women to be considered top tier, and given this meets the old criteria, if there are no objections, the MMA:NOT rules will be updated.

This leaves using a single (potentially biased) source for rankings for a later debate, as well as the men's side. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.226.1.232 (talk) 15:00, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I would say that arguing that there are as many MMA female fighters as there are male MMA fighters is not supported by any facts. The sheer difference in number of fighters is a significant reason why only 5 female fighters were used per division.  Think of it in percentage terms--if you had 100 male fighters, then the top 10 would be 10%, but it would be 50% of 20 female fighters.  I doubt that there are only twice as many male fighters as female, so using 5 still probably overstates the case.  Also, the most recent discussion consensus was 6 ranked fighters.  Unless you can show Bellator has at least six female fighters ranked in the top 5, it appears that you're changing a long-standing policy because you WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Papaursa (talk) 04:37, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Please show documented evidence for your claims. It appears you are referencing WP:IDONTLIKEIT yourself without bothering to actually do the work. For starters your claim that the consensus was "6 ranked fighters" is belied by WP:MMANOT itself which reads "Active organizations with multiple male fighters ranked in the top 10 in any of the 9 weight classes, or at least three female fighters ranked in the top 5 (regardless of weight class), were placed in the top tier." 3 != 6. It's also an outright failure to say "well since there are more men's divisions, they're deeper" since it's apples to oranges. Since you've failed to cite sources I will reference Women's_Flyweights_(125_lb,_56_kg) as an obvious starting point, which will show that in the UFC alone there are more female flyweights than male. There are also more noteworthy female flyweights than male. Featherweight becomes more of a challenge as it's a smaller weight class, but top-heavy in terms of notability as a result. Since Bellator has three female featherweights in the top 5 and two female flyweights in the top five by the current rules of WP:MMANOT they are a top tier organization. Interested in hearing other, non-biased takes on this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.121.224.177 (talk) 13:00, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Long overdue. Bellator is a clear-cut tier 1 promotion for women.
 * I see a blantant pro-UFC bias at work here, whether those behind it are conscious of it or not. Bellator is the first significant promotion outside Invicta to offer flyweight and they have almost all female featherweights. UFC doesn't have the division just a champ and some one off fights. We are past the point of insanity here. By wikinot guidelines they are tier1 and should be recognized as such. 199.119.233.218 (talk) 16:48, 28 December 2019 (UTC) AnnoyedGrunt
 * The majority seem to favor an update here. Let's allow a bit more time for discussion but if there are no further objections it appears it's finally time for WP:MMANOT to get a long overdue update.
 * Only organization with a 145lb weight class for women outside Invicta. UFC has 3 notable fighters at 145. Bellator MMA are Tier 1.JiminyFixit (talk) 12:57, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Case for adding Bellator and Rizin to Top Tier
Bellator and Rizin are both top tier organizations according to the criteria of having multiple male and female fighters in the top 10 and top 5 respectively. Using mma.kezyma.com and fightmatrix.com. For HW, Bellator has Bader, Kongo, Minakov in the top 10, LHW Phil Davis and Nemkov, Middleweight Rafael Lovato Jr., Mousasi, Tokov, FW Patricio Pitbull and AJ McKee, Bantam Horiguchi, Patrick Mix. For females, Macfarlane and Carmouche for Flyweight and Budd and Cyborg and Blencowe for featherweight. Rizin on the other hand for Bantam has Ogikubo, Horiguchi (he is double champ for two organizations),Patrick Mix. For female they have Maesawa, Hamderlai, Kurobe for atomweight. Likewise BAMMA and Taichi are now defunct HeinzMaster (talk) 20:57, 10 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Pls see [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Mixed_martial_arts/MMA_notability/Archive_10 ] message titled "Proposal: promote Bellator MMA as the top tier promoter for male and female categories". Stay safe and thank you. Cassiopeia(talk) 10:47, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Proposal: Split up Second Tier MMA promotions into two groups and Change Notability
User:HeinzMaster has abandoned his proposal and opted for User:Papaursa proposal with inline with WP:NSPORT guidelines. Cassiopeia(talk) 09:03, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Hey Hey, Happy New Year everyone. It's the start of the new year and there is a break in events due to the Holiday break, so I thought this would be a perfect time to bring up this topic. For the longest of time, we have had a two tier system for MMA notability., with it just being UFC/Invicta on top and all other promotions grouped together in tier 2. However, I feel there is a big difference in the quality of promotions like Bellator, Rizin, PFL, etc and stuff like Jungle Fight or Ultimate Challenge MMA. So my proposal is to split the second tier into a second and third tier. For promotions in the second tier, the champions of those promotions satisfy the notability criteria, while 3rd tier stays the same as today's second tier with no perks. I think this is a good compromise as not to open the flood gates to a bunch of new articles needed to be created, while still allowing a select group of elite fighters not in the UFC to be able to get articles. It brings it on par with the notability criteria of other combat sports like Kickboxing. People who challenge for the title in those promotions can also be open for being allowed to get notability imho.

The initial second tier should constitute of: Bellator MMA, Absolute Championship Akhmat, ONE Championship, Professional Fighters League, Konfrontacja Sztuk Walki, RIZIN Fighting Federation, and Brave Combat Federation as these most easily fulfill the criteria of having multiple reliable third-party sources dedicate detailed coverage to one or more of the champions/events of these organizations and have fighters appear in the rankings of websites like fightmatrix, sherdog, and kezyma (https://mma.kezyma.com/?Area=Home) which I like the most since the formulation is straight forward and can be found here. https://www.remi-coulom.fr/WHR/WHR.pdf

HeinzMaster (talk) 06:03, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Edit: At the suggestion of, I have taken off Brave and included a criteria that the organizations must have multiple fighters (2+) in the top 25 spread out over multiple divisions, ala they can't have all of their top 25 fighters fighting in one division. For these rankings, I used the standard rankings for Fightmatrix and the Kezyma rankings. Using this criteria, All the previously mentioned organizations are eligible, besides Brave. Likewise, we can include this criteria for promotion to Tier 1, have the organization need to have 6 fighters in the top 6 of 2/3 of the rankings, those being sherdog, the female one that escapes my mind, fightmatrix standard ranking, and kezyma. HeinzMaster (talk) 04:48, 5 January 2021 (UTC)


 * I completely agree. I think the non-UFC pro leagues definitely deserve more recognition as it relates to Wiki. As trivial as it might be to some, I do think it's necessary, especially when you have new MMA fans coming in all the time and a lot use Wikipedia to learn about said fighters and promotions. I definitely think Bellator, PFL, ACB, etc. all are worthy of receiving more serious recognition on here. I think it would do the mixed martial arts editing community good as a whole too. Powderkegg (talk) 09:29, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Agree - I believe that system is flawed. You have Invicta as a top tier due to their women's division being extremely relevant to rankings, but organizations like Bellator (that are similar or even bigger than defunct Strikeforce) ranked lower and amongst smaller promotions that do not meet the same criteria. I believe we should do such division to make it easier to distinguish the promotions that are big enough for relevance but can't be compared to UFC, Bellator etc. At the same time, I believe we should review a couple of those criteria as I believe Bellator should be considered a top tier organization. Anyways, that's a very good debate. Gsfelipe94 (talk) 13:12, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Agree - The promotions you mentioned clearly deserve to be separated from smaller promotions, just because they aren't the UFC, it doesn't mean they are the same as a regional promotion. There are multiple notable mixed martial artists that should absolutely be notable enough yet they aren't as of now, Jiri Prochazka comes to mind immediately, he was one of the best outside of the UFC, gets one win there and is in the top-5, yet he doesn't match criteria because he hasn't had three bouts in the UFC. This definitely needs to change. PabloLikesToWrestle (talk) 15:11, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment Whatever you guys decide is fine with me. I don't know much about MMA and use your guideline in AfC, so I defer to y'all on what you think is best. If I understand correctly, with the second tier folks, if they are past or current champion in their weight class (in the aforementioned leagues), they are notable. If they participate in a fight in those leagues but lose (or win but are not weight-class champions), they would not be notable. Am I understanding this correctly? Bkissin (talk) 15:19, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * If they had won a title in a second tier organization, they would for sure be eligible. I also suggested if they even compete in a title fight in those leagues, they would also be eligible, but any amount of normal non-title fights wouldn't contribute to notability requirement. HeinzMaster (talk) 17:55, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Yea i always think Bellator is simply not in same level as UFC. UFC has all these very tight drug testing policy that would keep UFC Fighters clean on both sides. Bellator does so little testing... Kent Bargo (talk) 04:00, 8 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Mostly Agree: I think this would be a good chance as there are top tier athletes in other organizations too; (Kyoji Horiguchi) being a prime example. There has been multiple discussions about promoting Bellator to top-tier organizations, which is where I think Bellator belongs rather than the 2nd tier. Also, I would like to see more concrete rules/requirements for a promotion to qualify to the 2nd tier. I'm not exactly sure whether or not Brave CF would bypass organizations like Cage Warriors, CFFC, LFA, Combate Americas etc. Please don't take this as a list of organizations that would absolutely need to be 2nd tier but a reasoning why there should be more concise set of requirements. Ticelon (talk) 17:12, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Ya I was also somewhat hesitant to include Brave, just wanted an even 8 really. I have found the best compromise to be that since Fightmatrix and Kezyma have archives where you can look at past rankings easily, if you have multiple fighters, 2 or more, appear in the top 25 of their respective weightclass, then you can be counted as Tier 2. Looking at the data, that would include everyone besides Brave. It would also provide a set of concise criteria. For the links to those two lists I mentioned, https://www.fightmatrix.com/historical-mma-rankings/ranking-snapshots/ and https://mma.kezyma.com/Rating/Archive?page=1&pageSize=25&month=1&year=2020. We can even add that criteria to promotion to Tier 1 status, using the existing lists (sherdog) along with these two. HeinzMaster (talk) 17:52, 4 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Agree Sounds good to me, guys! And I also think Bellator belongs in the 1st tier. Psycho-Krillin (talk) 18:10, 4 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Agree For me the UFC and bellator are the promotions who belong in 1st tier. In the second tier, i'll Put Invicta fc, ACA, KSW, PFL, RIzin, One championship.I think we coul add champion of 2nd tier in criteria supporting notability. The other org Brave, LFA, Cage warrior, etc. goes in the 3 tier. KINGFEDORQc (talk) 23:08, 4 January 2021 (UTC)


 * AgreeI tend to agree with the rest. There are definitely enough third party sources. GameRCrom (talk) 04:10, 5 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment As one of the editors that has been involved with MMA notability criteria since they were created, I think I bring a different perspective from many. Originally the purpose was to create notability criteria and sort out which promotions were notable and which were not. This led to a two tier list of promotions--notable and not notable.  Anyone interested can read in the archives how this was done and the ensuing discussions about changing it.  Dividing up the second tier, essentially creating a third tier (or even more), is not unreasonable but  doesn't really seem to impact the notability of individuals.  Many MMA organizations have articles because they have enough coverage, but that doesn't mean they're the highest level (which is the general criteria espoused at WP:NSPORT).  As far as expanding the criteria, I don't think it's necessary--it's not like MMA fighters are having a hard time becoming notable.  Boxing goes back into the 1800s and there are less than 2000 American boxers on Wikipedia.  MMA goes back less than 30 years and there are over 1200 American MMA fighters on WP.  Someone earlier in this discussion mentioned kickboxing.  Those criteria require either being ranked in the world top 10 or fighting for a world title from a major organization.  Those are even tougher standards than the ones for MMA.  If you want to expand the MMA criteria, I would recommend the one proposed last year by Sandals1 (and supported by me, but no one else).  That would have made any fighter ranked in the world top 10 notable, regardless of organization.  Sherdog has always been the ranking of choice and it's been used because of its history and because having only one makes life simpler.  You can see the confusion created by boxing's myriad organizations.  Finally, I would like to remind everyone that any recommended changes would need to be agreed to at WT:NSPORT. Papaursa (talk) 19:25, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Honestly I would be down for having anyone in the top 10 of the Sherdog rankings, I have never seen that suggestion before and it's valid since we already use those rankings to determine validity for promotion notability. It would avoid having to constantly check if a promotion is second or third tier. Should I suggest that in this proposal or make a new one? I just suggested this one since I felt the current notability was very UFC centric. I would also like to suggest at least using another ranking system, such as fight matrix, which even has a wikipedia page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight_Matrix I feel like having two is not too complicated and it has easily found accessed archives. Likewise, we would have to establish how far back we use the rankings, example everyone who appears in the sherdog rankings after 2016, etc. I checked and both rankings started in 2008, with Sherdog in Aug, 13, 2008 https://www.sherdog.com/news/rankings/list/49 and Fight matrix on January 1, 2008. https://www.fightmatrix.com/historical-mma-rankings/ranking-snapshots/?Issue=1&Division=2 HeinzMaster (talk) 22:59, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The proposal was made last January--before covid upended all of our plans. We have always used the top 10 because that was in keeping with the boxing and kickboxing criteria.  The UFC became dominant in the rankings because of their signing the best fighters, not because of any inherent UFC bias.  If you look at the original data used to establish the criteria, the UFC wasn't nearly so dominant.  I think with all the weight classes, requiring a promotion to have 6 top fighters isn't that onerous--that's less than 1 per division (slightly more for the women, but they have fewer organizations).  I'd be surprised if using the top 10 in each division at fightmatrix produced significantly different organizational results, but feel free to check it out.  Personally, I'd say that if an organization can't produce at least one top ranked fighter in each division, it's hard to justify a claim that all of their fighters are fighting at the highest level.  That's the problem with using organizations to determine notability.  I'd prefer not to change the existing criteria, which I believe were well thought out and empirically justified (and have held up well through the years).  I admit I might be a bit biased, but those were arrived at by well-discussed consensus where nobody got everything they wanted.  I certainly would go along with a proposal that would claim anyone ranked in the world top 10 by sherdog or fightmatrix should be considered WP notable.  I think that should be a separate criteria, and is a better one, than the existing one based on organizations.  Of course, as I said before, it would need to be agreed to by the MMA project and then posted at WT:NSPORT for their comments and approval.  For anyone interested in the organizational counts from early 2020, see WT:WikiProject Mixed martial arts/MMA notability/Archive 11. Papaursa (talk) 01:53, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I know, I wasn't suggesting an UFC bias, don't worry. I understand the dynamics of MMA nowadays, UFC is a clear and ahead top dog organization, no one can really deny that fact, just wanted to give fighters outside of the UFC a chance to make it. After looking back at the discussion, I agree with your interpretation that it isn't too strict. At the current time, I think keeping the current tier model, along with adding the fact that even if they don't meet the 3 fight in invicta/UFC, as long as they reach the top 10 in either ranking system, they are notable. It's much simpler and straight forward then what I was suggesting. Additionally, I will do a recount of all the sherdog and fight matrix rankings or the last year and see what the count is as well. HeinzMaster (talk) 04:36, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Hey, I finished tallying up the results for the sherdog and fightmatrix rankings. The results for Sherdog I included here. User:Cassiopeia/sandbox_2 and for fightmatrix, I did it on excel but here is a screenshot of the results. https://ibb.co/rG7BqN0 HeinzMaster (talk) 08:19, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * It doesn't look like the numbers are radically different between fightmatrix and sherdog. I believe it highlights the fact that the top 10 fighters in every weight class should be considered notable.  I would prefer to see more emphasis on the individuals and less on the organizations, although the UFC still seems dominant in both men's and women's divisions (but especially in the men's rankings). Papaursa (talk) 04:57, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
 * So keep the current structure along with adding that if they appear in the top 10 of either sherdog or fightmatrix, they are notable? I am okay with that proposal HeinzMaster (talk) 20:59, 19 January 2021 (UTC)


 * —Disagree Bellator should stay at Tier 2 because it not same as UFC. We do even know if most of fighters there even get drug tested like UFC. Whenever a bellator fighter comes into a top tier like UFC ...they end up having big losing streak at most of time. They are not showing their true self. Bellator is nothing but a second tier. Kent Bargo (talk) 08:19, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Kent Bargo never ceases to amaze us in Wikipedia. Gsfelipe94 (talk) 13:47, 16 January 2021 (UTC)


 * I completely agree! Kosbit4 (talk) 17:44, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Please Read

 * Comment

Hey, I am just writing to inform that I going to close this proposal and wanting the Papaursa proposal below as the chief one since I feel it is easier to keep track, clearer, and still accomplishes what I set out to do. Most of the fighters which would be covered by my proposal would also be covered by Papaursa's one, example Jiri Prochazka, Manel Kape, Juliana Velásquez, etc, and most Bellator, KSW, Rizin, etc. champs were once or are in the top 10 of the fightmatrix or sherdog rankings. Instead of having to check every couple of months if the organizations are in which tier and then having to have notability convoluted by having certain periods of time in organizations count and others not, like we do now with pre and post 2015 Bellator. Hope you all understand and hope you all have a safe time. Sorry for bothering you all with this stuff, it's almost at the end. HeinzMaster (talk) 07:20, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Change in Notability Criteria Proposal
Consensus agreement. A discussion of this proposal will be set up by User:Papaursa at WT:NSPORT. The proposal will only be part of WP:NMMA if it is accepted in WT:NSPORT. Cassiopeia(talk) 09:12, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Mixed martial artists are presumed notable if they:
 * 1) Have fought at least three professional fights for a top-tier MMA organization, such as the UFC (see WP:MMATIER); or
 * 2) Have fought for the highest title of a top-tier MMA organization; or
 * 3) Been ranked in the world top 10 in their division by either Sherdog (sherdog.com) or Fight Matrix (fightmatrix.com).


 * Agree As proposer and based on previous discussions. Papaursa (talk) 23:46, 19 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Agree Based on the previous discussions. HeinzMaster (talk) 02:42, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Speedy Close The same proposal has not been passed above and require more discussionKent Bargo (talk) 06:06, 23 January 2021 (UTC).
 * It is not the same proposal at all. I should know because I wrote the first one. HeinzMaster (talk) 06:35, 23 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Agree Based on the previous discussions. BEDofRAZORS666 (talk) 01:34, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Agree The criteria seem good to me. Psycho-Krillin (talk) 21:47, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Proposal now at WT:NSPORT
The above proposal, having been agreed to by consensus, has now been posted at WT:NSPORT. Feel free to go there and post your comments. Papaursa (talk) 03:01, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

see above. is there a reason why you ping yourself? Kent Bargo (talk) 02:26, 9 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Note to all, the New notability criteria for MMA fighters has near unanimous support and the additional new MMA notability guideline " Been ranked in the world top 10 in their division by either Sherdog (sherdog.com) or Fight Matrix (fightmatrix.com). was updated in at Wikipedia:Notability (sports) Mixed martial arts section. Stay safe everyone and best. Cassiopeia(talk) 07:49, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Request for Comment on SSN at WP:Notability (sports)
There is a discussion on SSN (sport specific guidelines) at RFC on Notability (sports) policy and reliability issues. Feel free to go there and post your comments.<b style="font-family:Georgia;font-size:105%;color:#FA0"> Cassiopeia</b>(<b style="#0000FF">talk</b>) 01:02, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Proposal: promote Bellator MMA as the top tier promoter for male and female categories
So the cut off for being a top Tier promotion is having 6+ fighters in the Top 10 of the rankings of male and 3+ for females, this discussion was brought up some time ago to promote Bellator, found here The original proposal was for Bellator 2018 till present to be upgraded to Top Tier. HeinzMaster (talk) 16:06, 6 July 2021 (UTC) Bump

see above.<b style="font-family:Georgia;font-size:105%;color:#FA0"> Cassiopeia</b>(<b style="#0000FF">talk</b>) 05:39, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

---  Discussion: 


 * Support : I already said back then that Bellator should be considered a top tier organization. I maintain my opinion. Gsfelipe94 (talk) 23:44, 6 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Support : I have proposed in the past - see here and was told at least 6 fighters in the top 10 rankings for male and females instead of 3 was the lastest requirements even thought the requirments was not updated. Here the tables show Bellator has meet the requirements. It is time to add Bellator to top tier promotion list in Wikipedia MMA.<b style="font-family:Georgia;font-size:105%;color:#FA0"> Cassiopeia</b>(<b style="#0000FF">talk</b>) 05:44, 7 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Support : From what I've read here, it makes sense to me to promote Bellator to a top tier promotion. They do seem to have most of the top fighters outside of the UFC. GameRCrom (talk) 07:22, 7 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Support : I fully agree that it is time for Bellator to be top tier. The criteria itself is silly because rankings skew so heavily toward the UFC. Udar55 (talk) 13:35, 7 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment I have no problem with making Bellator top tier for the women as they seem to have the numbers. I do question about whether to add the Bellator men to top tier.  Now that the criteria have been changed to include any top ten fighter regardless of organization, I would have thought we'd have taken care of the notable fighters (at least based on the criteria for the other major fighting sports).  I also don't agree with the numbers.  For example, when I look at the chart's latest Sherdog rankings for men (June 14, 2021), I see 2 in LHW, 2 in MM, 2 in WW, 1 in LW, and 0 in HW, FW, BW, and FLW.  That makes 7 but the total says 9.  Even the strongest Bellator men's division only has 2 ranked fighters.  It also means Bellator has 1 or fewer top 10 fighters in 5 divisions but raising Bellator to top tier will mean we're stating that all of their fighters in those divisions are competing at the highest level.  That doesn't seem right to me, at least from a common sense standpoint--and it's not like there's a shortage of MMA fighters in WP. Papaursa (talk) 23:33, 7 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Good day.
 * (1) Bellator women has meet the 6 fighters criteria to included in the top tier guidlines when I first proposed it in 2019 but not enough editors joined the discussion to vote for support of the changed. Sherdog ranked the mma fighter 3-4 times per month.
 * (2) What we have on the table is just one of the week of the month rankings of each division. As you have mentioned, the consistent over a year of 6 fithers in top ten of the promoter/org (Bellator here) should be considered when we promoter the top tier, which the sourced table below has shown since 2018 (3.5 years).
 * (3) Responding to your comment " the criteria have been changed to include any top ten fighter regardless of organization" - The top ten fighters ranked in either Sherdog/Fight Matrix rankings are only very small numbers as majority of the top ten fighters is fighting under UFC banner and some under Bellator. So if Bellator is inclusive in the top tier list, the number of the 10 fighters that have fought under other promoters (besides UFC and Bellator) is even small. For such it doesnt effect very little in term of incresing the notable fighters pages. In addition, Bellator was a top tier promotor from 2009 to 2015 accroding to WP:MMATIER. So the increase of Bellator fighters' pages would be from the recent years.<b style="font-family:Georgia;font-size:105%;color:#FA0"> Cassiopeia</b>(<b style="#0000FF">talk</b>) 23:53, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but 2+2+2+1 still doesn't equal 9 (but yes, it is greater than 6). I also am not sure exactly what you're saying in point 3.  The top 10 criteria is individually earned, but moving an entire promotion into the top tier is a big deal and will make hundreds of fighters suddenly WP notable.  I'm just saying it's not a step to take lightly and is different from the criteria used by any other fighting sport, as well as being more generous. Papaursa (talk) 02:23, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I understand proposal needs to be taking seriously; however, if Bellator meets current notability guidlines, which I believe it does, then we have to adhere to the guidlines after that is purpose of the the guidelines.
 * (1) For Sherdog June 14 2021 top 10 rankings - there are 2 in LHW, 2 in MM, 2 in WW, 1 in LW, 2 in FW and 0 in HW, BW, and FLW. The info can be seen in the source editing mode - here  but somehow it does not shown in the normal view (visual mode) I have checked a few times and cant find the error (if anyone could find it pls correct accordingly).  The June 14 FW top 10 ranking is  here. So on June 14, 2021 top 10 rankings according to Sherdog is 2+2+2+1+2 = 9.
 * (2) Sorry for the confusion on point 3. I have changed the texts and hope it makes more sense this time. Stay safe and best.<b style="font-family:Georgia;font-size:105%;color:#FA0"> Cassiopeia</b>(<b style="#0000FF">talk</b>) 03:45, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree that Bellator meets the previously stated condition as a top tier organization, but I'm questioning whether that definition is still the correct one to use given the new criteria for MMA fighter notability. Of course, consensus is the policy of WP but that doesn't mean I, or anyone else, has to agree with every decision.  I think the MMA criteria is too inclusive, especially when compared to other fighting sports, but I also think that college football players who receive just local coverage are meeting too low a bar.  It's just my opinion. Papaursa (talk) 02:07, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the agreement that Bellator do meet the top tier promoter as per the latest/current Wikipedia MMA guidelines. The new fighter notability (fighters who ranked top 10 in the world as per Sherdog or Fight Metrix) has no impact on the current promoter notability guidelines. Since Bellator is already in the top tier promoter as per our discussion here as per to date, those fighters who ranked top 10 in Sherdog/Fight Metrix are so small number that almost all of them already notable for they are either previously fight under UFC/Bellator or notable under where they have represented their countries in Olympics games, Commonwealth games or WP:NSPORT such as Kayla Harrison. I have a look at all the Sport notabilty guidelines (SNG) - see WP:NSPORT in Wikipedia. All the SNG do have more than one criteria whcih means multiple leagues/competitions are inclusive in the SNG even those sports that play in a small number of countries such as Rubgy League. If we look at Boxing (WP:NBOX, the closest sport to MMA as both of them are combat sport, the SNG includes few Orgs/competitons plus top 10 ranking which is almost similiar to current SNG MMA. Lastly, Bellator was one of the top tier promotion before in Wikipedia and now to add them back as they meet the guidlines is the rightful decision to make. Stay safe Papursa and thank you for joining the dicussion.<b style="font-family:Georgia;font-size:105%;color:#FA0"> Cassiopeia</b>(<b style="#0000FF">talk</b>) 03:48, 9 July 2021 (UTC)


 * The amount for June 2021 is 9, I just missed adding Pitbull and AJ for FW when I was formulating the totals.HeinzMaster (talk) 05:14, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for spoted the missing info and add them in. Stay safe and best.<b style="font-family:Georgia;font-size:105%;color:#FA0"> Cassiopeia</b>(<b style="#0000FF">talk</b>) 03:48, 9 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Support : I think it's a little ridiculous that Bellator isn't looked as a top tier league. Sure, they may not be on the level of the UFC, but they have so many top level fighters. From Mousasi, to Patricio Pitbull, to Vadim Nemkov, Sergio Pettis, Ryan Bader, Amosov, etc. It's a top tier league for sure. Powderkegg (talk) 04:39, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
 * You do understand that logically you can't claim Bellator is top tier and also say it's not on the same level as the UFC, don't you? Papaursa (talk) 02:07, 9 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Question In order to make record checking simple, can we make the move of Bellator to top tier effective on January 1, 2022? It should make little difference in terms of individual fighter notability and is keeping with past procedure.  Of course, that assumes that consensus is to move it, but that seems to be the consensus that is forming. Papaursa (talk) 14:00, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
 * They have only held 6 events this year, so I would be completely okay with just making it retroactive to this Jan 1, 2021 as the start. Plus they started doing much slimmed down cards starting this year. I will keep track of notability like I do with the UFC fighters and others. HeinzMaster (talk)
 * We have 3.5 years info here that Bellator is in top tier and editors voted consensus for the proposal, I see no point of delaying the procedure further the notablility of Bellator has been long overdue.<b style="font-family:Georgia;font-size:105%;color:#FA0"> Cassiopeia</b>(<b style="#0000FF">talk</b>) 21:28, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
 * The Bellator men failed to meet the notability criteria last June and they bounced around the 5-7 fighters before that. That's hardly showing the sustained ability to meet the minimum criteria which has always been part of the consideration.  I admit that I didn't realize Bellator had only had 6 fight cards so far in 2021.  Barring additional votes opposed to the proposal, I don't see why the top tier status couldn't be effective as of January 1, 2021.  Just my opinion, of course, but one based on a long history with this topic. Papaursa (talk) 23:01, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
 * OK points taken. However, Women's Bellator met the guidelines as of 2020 so it could retroactive to this Jan 1, 2020 and Men Bellator could be to this Jan 1, 2021. Which means Bellator men as top tier would be from ( 2009 -  2015 (as per current WP:MMATIER guidelines and from 2021 - present), and Bellator women would be starting from 2020 to present). Pls let me know if the above is agreeable.<b style="font-family:Georgia;font-size:105%;color:#FA0"> Cassiopeia</b>(<b style="#0000FF">talk</b>) 23:33, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for asking. As always, I'll give you my full and honest opinion.  Past discussions have said that an organization should meet the minimum guidelines for at least a year before being moved to top tier.  That was to show that an organization had staying power as a top tier organization.  Then it would become top tier at the beginning of the next year.  That was for simplicity of checking individual fight records.  It was never an official policy, but was a generally accepted way of doing things.  That would make the Bellator women top tier for 2021 and the men top tier in 2022 (assuming they continue to meet the minimum requirements).  That would be in keeping with how things have been done since MMA fighter notability criteria were established.  That would be my preference, but I'm only one person. Papaursa (talk) 21:02, 19 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Thank you for sharing the information which was not recorded in WP:MMATIER same as changing from 3 fighters ranked int top 10 to 6 fighters. Whoever, discussed in the conversation should provide hist diff of the agreement so we can put the information in WP:MMATIER. Papaursa, if you were part of the discussion and agreed with the 2 notes above, pls provide hist diffs and if not at least provide which talk apge (Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mixed martial arts/MMA notability or  Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mixed martial arts and what year, and when I have time I will read the talk page and find the hist diffs so in the future edtiors would not go throught propse something and get knockback due to information what not recorded.  In summary we have conclued that  Bellator men as top tier would be from ( 2009 -  2015 (as per current WP:MMATIER guidelines and from 2021 - present), and Bellator women would be starting from  January 2021 to present). I believe we have unanimous support to promote Bellator to top tier as per discuss and once the discussion is closed I will update  the info in WP:MMATIER. Thank you Papursa and thank you User:HeinzMaster for the proposal and than you everyone who participated in this discussin. Stay safe everyone and best.<b style="font-family:Georgia;font-size:105%;color:#FA0"> Cassiopeia</b>(<b style="#0000FF">talk</b>) 00:37, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * At a previous discussion I provided links to the 6 fighter minimum discussion. As far as the one year discussion the most recent one that I recall is at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mixed martial arts/MMA notability/Archive 9.  I see that I've been involved in these discussions for over 11 years and I have no intention of combing WP for additional references.  I went back to the original disucssion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mixed martial arts/Archive 5 and the succeeding topic at "Notable MMA organizations" and was surprised to find that even then I mentioned about using rankings to show fighter notability. (I didn't remember saying that). I do want to be clear that, as I said earlier in this discussion, my approval is not needed for any changes since WP is about consensus.  I see my role as serving as corporate memory since I'm not sure any of the other original participants are still active. Papaursa (talk) 02:02, 20 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much for providing the hist diffs and being an important editors in WP WikiProject MMA for so long. Without you we could find it difficult to know what have been discussed and the history of this project. You and Peter Rehse have done so much for MMA project in Wikipedia, I and I believe all the active MMA editors appreciate your contributions and advice. Peter, You been on Wiki break for 2.5 years now and I truely hope you will return one day as you have don so much for this project and Wikipedia and your knowlege and advice are always most welcome.<b style="font-family:Georgia;font-size:105%;color:#FA0"> Cassiopeia</b>(<b style="#0000FF">talk</b>) 04:29, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the kind words. I'm more used to abuse coming my way.  For years MMA topics were a battleground with lots of angry words exchanged.  There's a reason that it reached a point where admins were given permission to freely sanction abusive MMA editors.  I have a question about the above dates for making the Bellator events top tier.  I'm not clear whether or not there is supposed to be a difference between the men's and women's starting dates for the latest period of top tier status and, if there is, what the new date for the men is. Papaursa (talk) 03:23, 21 July 2021 (UTC)


 * MMA topics are still a battleground today and maybe in a lesser degrees. I could totally relate to your sentiments for I am a NPPS and counter vandalism trainer. I received many abussive messages, ranging from derogatory languages one can find under the sky, to threaten to sue and kill me, from editors who I reject their aritcles to the vandalised editors who I had placed warning messages on their talk pages.  I have a look at the tables below and using the 1 year from the month Bellator met the top tier criteira (6 top 10 fighters), the men starting date should be on July 2021 and women should be on January 2021. Stay safe and best.<b style="font-family:Georgia;font-size:105%;color:#FA0"> Cassiopeia</b>(<b style="#0000FF">talk</b>) 06:56, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the clarification. As I said earlier, I would have had 1/1/22 as the restart date for Bellator men being top tier, but that's more of a desire for simplicity and habit than a policy issue. Papaursa (talk) 23:56, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Pls see see the links provided by Papaursa. Please vote below for mma promoters to be listed in top tier under WikiProject Mixed martial arts/MMA notability, the promoters/orgnaizations need to have at least 6 top 10 fighters in Sherdog top 10 list for at least one year before being moved to top tier. Pls vote so we may closed this proposal at soonest and record this extra info in the WP:MMATIER for future reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cassiopeia (talk • contribs) 14:29, July 20, 2021 (UTC)

-

 Discussions 
 * Support: <b style="font-family:Georgia;font-size:105%;color:#FA0"> Cassiopeia</b>(<b style="#0000FF">talk</b>) 04:29, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Support: GameRCrom (talk) 07:18, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Support: HeinzMaster (talk) 13:21, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * No Opinion - I will follow whatever the NMMA and MMATIER believe is notable. Bkissin (talk) 14:40, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Support: RafaelHP (talk) 07:08, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Support--I have said everything pertinent about this discussion that I can think of. I believe it's now time for consensus to reign. Papaursa (talk) 23:56, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

---