Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Motorcycle racing/Archive 1

What should we start first?
I was hoping someone would start a project for Grand Prix. I don't have intimate knowledge of early GP racing but I'm pretty familiar with the late 1980s era to the present. I have a couple racer biographies (Rainey, Doohan, Rossi), a Motocourse (1993-94) book, and a thick copy of Who Works in MotoGP from the 2001 season, to use as reference guides.

Is there any plan of attack you want to start with first? Maybe start some stub articles (e.g. different classes [500cc, 125cc, etc], all the riders, all the tracks, all the bikes) then flesh each one out over time. Create some templates for rider stats and bikes. I'm sure there's a ton more.

Anyhoo, I'm Wadems and I'm ready and eager to help. ♫ Bitch and Complain Sooner ♫ 04:11, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I have a copy of "50 Years Of Moto Grand Prix." It has all the results from 1949 through 1999. I've entered the 1967, 1975, 1978 & 1983 season reviews. It's fairly time consuming. I think Formula 1 has all the seasons entered. It's a lot of typing but I'm willing to plug along as time allows.Orsoni 09:46, 22 April 2006 (UTC)Orsoni
 * Created 1967 Grand Prix motorcycle racing season summary:12:53, 18 April 2006 (UTC)Orsoni
 * How about scanning (optical character recognition also?) and sharing the pics so that other can read/edit? --Matthead 20:57, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Templates, etc.
I've been working on the Isle of Man TT results pages and trying to add some commentary about each year, so have added the Isle of Man TT template I made to the project page and well as signing up. I know the Isle of Man TT was not always a GP event and no longer is but IMHO should be included.

I also made a new template for the Grand Prix motorcycle racing season and have put it on all the results pages. I was unsure if the top or bottom seemed best so decided the top would allow users to quickly see what pages were available and what is red inked. If you think it should be placed elsewhere, just move it. I feel a template like this is a much easier way of navigating related pages instead of having to first go to the category and then find the appropriate year if it has been linked properly.

Other motorcycle related work has been some biographies, like Stanley Woods and Artie Bell as well as minor editing of other related pages. I see that Orsoni is doing some good work on the GP results but Readro seems to be doing some earlier GP work though he is not signed up here. Cheers ww2censor 18:32, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
 * He is now :) I made a Race report infobox a while ago. Readro 16:28, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Isle of Man TT course
The locations listed for the Isle of Man TT circuit were all linked to the same topic page, so they are all linked now to the actual Snaefell mountain course article. Perhaps someone can help out with a circuit infobox though someone will have to draw or find a suitable circuit image. TIA ww2censor 19:12, 26 August 2006 (UTC)


 * While the actual course is named Snaefell Mountain Course, I believe the location should be termed "Isle of Man" with the link being directed to the Snaefell Mountain Course page. Much the same way that the Autodromo Enzo Ferrari is simply known as "Imola".Orsoni 07:46, 29 August 2006 (UTC)Orsoni


 * That sounds like reasonable logic to me. So, I will change them. ww2censor 13:25, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Rider Biographies
Some of the recently created rider biographies do not comply with the Biographies of living persons standards. May need some work.Orsoni 07:46, 29 August 2006 (UTC)Orsoni


 * Are you referring to any in particular, like some of the ones I have started? If so what are the problems you see? ww2censor 13:25, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The Tetsuya Harada page for instance. It's broken down into several categories such as "Early Years" and "International Emergence". Maybe I'm nitpicking but it seems as if this could be covered with a simple paragraph. It also uses the Harada-san monicker which is normally a sign of respect but it wouldn't be something you'd see in an encyclopedia article.Orsoni 14:16, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I've found a biography template to use as a reference. Here is a list of core biographies for use as reference.Orsoni 14:42, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The Template:Infobox_Biography does not seem to fit too well as it exclude much data we might like to include. Perhaps we could modify the Template:Former F1 driver template to suit our requirements. What do you think? I will look around some more. IMHO, whatever we choose should be usable by all motorcycle racers, not just Grand Prix racers. ww2censor 15:12, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The F1 driver template looks good. The F1 pages really seem to be very well done. Here is the page for Alain Prost for example. Particularly impressive is the chart at the bottom of the page showing Prost's results year by year and race by race.Orsoni 03:31, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I've modified the F1 driver template to Hugh Anderson to see what it would look like.Orsoni 04:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

My only concern with this template is that its content requirements exclude many other non-Grand Prix racers and some information may not be easily available either. I would prefer to develop a new template, based on this one, that could be used for all motorcycle racers so giving it greater usage. If you are agreeable I can try modifying this to suit. Let me see what I can come up with. BTW, I see you use the US English spelling of encyclopaedia and I should have left it as you wrote it though I prefer British English spelling. Cheers ww2censor 04:19, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I thought I had mis-typed :) Feel free to modify the template to include non-GP riders.Orsoni 04:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I've added the complete career results for Kenny Roberts, Jarno Saarinen, Renzo Pasolini and Santiago Herrero to the same standards as Formula 1 drivers.Orsoni 06:40, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Added complete career results for Mike Hailwood and John Surtees.Orsoni 09:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Added complete career results for Giacomo Agostini.Orsoni 12:37, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I've completed the last of the road racing world champions biography pages. Most of them are stubs that need fleshing out. Please feel free to jump in and edit where needed.Orsoni (talk) 13:49, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Project scope too restrictive?
I've been wondering if the scope of this project is too restrictive for the following reasons: All, or some, of these reasons effectively exclude editors, who may have other motorcycle interests, that would be better served with a project of broader scope and appeal. Don't get me wrong, I do not want to stop or restrict this project in any way but would hope that as part of a wider motorcycle project it would then get more notice, especially if a portal was started. I see others making new pages for motorcycle manufacturers and non-Grand Prix riders; these people are outside of this project.
 * There are very few contributors or members
 * Some editors who do some work here, like me, have other and often greater interest in older motorcycle racing
 * There is no general motorcycle project and it took me 9 months to stumble onto this project

Does anyone think this is a good idea? I think we should consider developing more interest in motorcycling in general and as a knock on effect I am sure we would get more interest in the Grands Prix. I would suggest starting a Motorcycle project and rolling this in as a part of that project and not in isolation from it. Thought anyone? Cheers ww2censor 14:09, 12 October 2006 (UTC)


 * On 10 October a motorcycle task force was initiated with User:Seasalt/Project_Motorcycles and WikiProject/List_of_proposed_projects for that purpose, without knowing of this task force. I found I liked doing marque histories.Seasalt 11:50, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know my way around Wikipedia well enough to comment. I stumbled upon the Grand Prix project myself.Orsoni 18:10, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The new Motorcycling WikiProject has been started and we hope you will all join as there is much overlap and much to be done. In fact the Grand Prix motorcycle racing project is really a sister project to the wider one just started. ww2censor 03:18, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

NR500 Article Deleted
There was a nice article detailing Honda's exotic, oval-cylindered 500cc GP racer but, it has suddenly vanished. Perhaps a sensitive Honda employee deleted it?Orsoni 14:27, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


 * According to the deletion log it was a copyvio. Maybe you can start the article again. Prolog 19:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Maybe I will. Definitely an interesting bike. I didn't know about a deletion log. Thanks for that!Orsoni 05:29, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Merging CZ
I don't think it would be good to merge the two CZ articles. Gun enthusiasts recognize the Udersky brand as a gun manufacturer, while the Strakonice plant is where CZ motorcycles were produced. While I think they were both the same parent company, they were two different factories and locations. Plus, a gun & motorcycle article would be excessively long. The CZ motorcycle history is lengthy with many models that still need to be expanded on and the gun article is already fairly large.Orsoni 06:39, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Maybe renaming the articles to CZ (motorcycle) and CZ (gun) would be better? Readro 19:08, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Grand Prix motorcycles template
I'm throwing this out there to see what kind of feedback it gets:

Obviously, it needs more work, but I'm more interested in getting feedback on the idea of using it. Seems like a nice enough way to organize what existed and when. You can see it in use on the Honda RC211V article. Thoughts? Roguegeek (talk) 08:19, 21 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Race bike articles are an area that definitely needs more input. I like the chart. You'd need to start from the 1949 season though (grin).Orsoni 13:14, 21 November 2006 (UTC)


 * There is a definite emphasis I will be putting on race bike articles over the next couple of months. I would definitely want to go back as far as possible on these template. I wouldn't be the one to do the work on those early years due to my limited knowledge, but I figure we gotta start somewhere. It's just a lot of info to fit onto just one. Maybe a template per decade (or two) with links to each decade on each template? Roguegeek (talk) 18:51, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Roguegeek, great table, but would it be possible to display overlapping model years? For instance, in 2002 Yamaha ran both the YZR500 and YZR-M1, and Honda ran the NSR500 and RC211V. I'm working on an article for the YZR500, and Yamaha had a new model of it in 2002, a fact which conflicts with your table.--Uli Kunkel 22:05, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

MotoGP and the Xbox game of the same name
There's an Xbox game named MotoGP, which is mentioned in Xbox as one of the Xbox Live launch titles. Problem is, I don't know if we have an article on it, and MotoGP is an unrelated redirect. Can anyone help me out here? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 22:14, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Grand Prix Season Final Standings
I've taken a page from the Formula 1 boys for the final standings and placed it in the 2005 Grand Prix motorcycle racing season final standings as an example. Those F1 boys are way ahead of the game in the way they present there data.

Here's an example:

{|

Ilmor X3 images
If anyone is interested in seeing them, I just acquired some beautiful rights free images of the Ilmor X3 MotoGP bike being ridden by Garry McCoy.

Already started posting them to articles that they are related to. Roguegeek (talk) 08:12, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia Day Awards
Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 19:29, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Yamaha TZ250 Photo Needed
The Yamaha TZ250 article contains a sad photo of a street legal model. This is hardly becoming of a motorcycle that ruled the 250 class in the 1970s. Maybe someone can find a photo of an competition model of this machine?Orsoni 13:27, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Merge Categorys
As per the new Wikipedia categorisation policy, an effort should be made to reduce categories. At the moment, we have categories for 50, 125, 250, 350, 500 & MotoGP racers, many of them overlapping. I propose we replace them with one Motorcycle Grand Prix racers category.Orsoni 05:46, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Seconded.--207.62.67.122 17:26, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Changes in Templates
Hi, I'm currently making some changes over on the WikiProject Motorsport Assessment Page. Look in the statistics section. Only 240 articles have the template WikiProject Motorsport on it. I'm thererfore going to propose something (I think this has been discussed a while back). Can every single Motorsport article have the template on it's talk page. My reasoning for this is that some drivers have only the Formula One template on the article. However, surely (by the way, this goes for virtually all articles), they haven't got to Formula One someway. They haven't just been thrown into F1, I don't think any drivers done that. They've gone through other forms of Motorsport. Therefore, surely the Wikipedia Motorsport template is needed for every single Motorsport article?. I'm going to do a vote on this (on this page, plus the Motorsport project and all the child projects) so we can get a decision on this. By the way, don't bother voting on different projects, as only one of your votes will count! Davnel03 16:53, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Agree


 * Disagree


 * Leave Comments Here

New discusssion on Motorsport talk page. Davnel03 18:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

19xx in motor racing categories
I've recently created Category:1950 in motor racing - Category:1968 in motor racing. So, feel free to add any relevant articles or subcategories into these new categories. -- DH85868993 12:25, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Standard width for motorsport infobox templates
On the WP:MOTOR discussion page, I have proposed the adoption of a standardised width for all racing driver infobox templates. It occurs to me that the concept should probably expanded to include motorcycle rider infobox templates as well, to allow for individuals who raced both cars and bikes. Please feel free to contribute to the discussion here. DH85868993 15:30, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Following broad support at WP:MOTOR, all motorsport people infoboxes have now been changed to a standard width of 24em. -- DH85868993 12:04, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Motorsport Library
I've made a suggestion at WikiProject Motorsport for a list of hardcopy references and who holds them, to help with referencing articles. This was prompted by the realisation that I have access to quite a lot of material which I'm not currently using. Please comment here. Cheers. 4u1e 16:46, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

What does NAT refer to?
Hi people. Hope you don't mind a question from an outsider, but I've noticed that in many of the MotoGP result tables one of the rounds is listed as "NAT". As this isn't linked or footnoted in the articles that I have looked at (Hailwood and Surtees for example) its meaning isn't clear. I'm assuming, from perusal of Surtees's infobox, that it refers to the Nations Grand Prix, but that's a guess. Could you enlighten me, please? And then possible think about clarifying the issue in the articles themselves? Cheers. Pyrope 13:09, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Yup, pretty certain it's the Nations Grand Prix. I don't think the formatting (apart from the lack of colour) is any different from the F1 standard though. Maybe F1 and Motorcycling need an abbreviation template to have in the articles. Readro 16:48, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


 * As most of the abbreviations are wikilinked to their appropriate articles (in both F1 and MotoGP) I reckon that they are somewhat self-explanatory. My point was mostly that NAT isn't linked and yet there is nothing elsewhere indicating to what it refers. I only guessed Nations GP from the career summary in Surtees's article, there is nothing at all in Hailwood that gives any clue. Perhaps a quick stub for the Nations GP? Written by someone who actually know what that is!Pyrope 21:48, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * SortedOrsoni 10:23, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Distinguish NSR500 V4 & V2 ?
Hi all, Ive put up a few pages of riders bio and stuff, and hope Im commenting in the right place. Apologies if not, but Im still learning how to use Wikipedia. Just going thru the GP machines, I noticed that the entry Honda NSR500 deals just with the V4. However the V2 campagined in the late 90s gets no mention. There are two options as I see it, either add in a para or two about it on the existing page, or create a new Honda NSR500 V2 page (which I'll be happy to do). This latter option however may require the existing page mentioned above to be renamed to Honda NSR500 V4 ? Any thoughts ? GPman31 09:46, 27 August 2007 (UTC)GPman31 Ive created a new page for the V2, as it was in effect a totally seperate bike to the V4 and shouldnt be included in that page. I dont see any need to rename the V4 page though.GPman31 13:49, 11 September 2007 (UTC)GPman31

Biography additions of 250cc and 125cc riders
Majority of those riders don't have own articles. And as many of them aren't going to be big stars, no need to do it. I just created new for Tomoyoshi Koyama. Here's my list for riders I plan to add later: There are all riders who have at least one win (as has Koyama) and doesn't have article, so that's good reason for them to be added. BleuDXXXIV 18:49, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Alex de Angelis
 * Hiroshi Aoyama
 * Marco Simoncelli
 * Yuki Takahashi
 * Lukáš Pešek
 * Mattia Pasini
 * Simone Corsi
 * Mike di Meglio

→Hi. A considerable bit of work there BleuDXXXIV - good luck with it. However I disagree with the idea that just because certain riders arent going to be "big stars" theres no need to document them. This is flawed in my opinion, firstly because there is no definition of a "big star" - it is totally subjective, be it based on whether a rider has a won a GP or a world title or several. Secondly Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia. So if you want to look up something, it should be included in it somewhere. Certainly the level of detail that should be included will be determined by the significance of the subject, but it should still be included in my opinion. Therefore I would like to see as many GP riders as possible covered in Wikipedia without any limitations. GPman31 11:08, 3 September 2007 (UTC)GPman31

Races by Year: Pole positions
Anybody who has seen the articles for F1 drivers will notice that on the results tables, pole position is denoted by using bold letters for the race abbreviations above the drivers' results (example: ITA for Italian GP). A similar thing is done for fastest lap where the abbreviation is in italics. I have previously created the results table for Casey Stoner, and used bold letters to denote pole position, and I did the same thing when I expanded Dani Pedrosa's results table. But I have since noticed that other MotoGP riders do not have pole positions denoted in this way. My question is whether I should continue to denote pole in this way (and maybe fastest lap as well) in line with the F1 articles, or whether I should change back the ones I edited. Also, as a few MotoGP riders' results tables are being colour-coded now, I wondered whether we should start adding a key like they do for F1 drivers to avoid any confusion the changes might bring. What do you guys think? Christophee 23:13, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Template:500 cc/MotoGP Motorcycle World Champions
Hi guys. I have just created a new template called Template:500 cc/MotoGP Motorcycle World Champions based on the one which can be seen in the articles for F1 world champions. The plan is that this template should eventually be added to the article of every 500cc/MotoGP world champion. So please could you do me a favour and add this template to all of the articles whom it concerns, whenever you might happen to view that rider's article, then each of the articles will eventually include this template which will link that rider to all of the other world champions. I'm also planning to create similar templates for the previous champions of the 125cc and 250cc classes so I'll let you know when they are completed and ask that you could help me attach those templates to the relevant articles also. Thank you very much. Christophee 23:21, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Done. 500cc/MotoGP template attached to all Champions' articles. ♫ Bitch and Complain Sooner ♫ 00:02, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Wow, that was quick. Thanks for doing that. I have now completed Template:125 cc Motorcycle World Champions and Template:250 cc Motorcycle World Champions and it would be great if you guys could add them to the relevent articles for me. Thank you. Christophee 23:29, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * 125s are done (and some of the 250s - only racers who also had 125cc Championship wins). I'll finish off the 250s next... ♫ Bitch and Complain Sooner ♫ 03:20, 17 October 2007 (UTC) - Update: 250s are done.  All templates should be good to go.  ♫ Bitch and Complain Sooner ♫ 03:37, 17 October 2007 (UTC)


 * 350 cc, 80 cc, and 50 cc World Champion templates have been created and added to their appropriate racer articles. ♫ Bitch and Complain Sooner ♫ 06:47, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Dirk Raudies
Started an article for Dirk Raudies. If anyone can speak German, there may be some information I didn't translate too well from the German Wiki. If you could double check that would be grand. I used AltaVista Babel Fish and I'm sure that's really accurate. ♫ Bitch and Complain Sooner ♫ 00:33, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Is Portal:Motorcycle racing defunct?

 * Also mentioned at WT:MOTOR

Would anyone be interested in reviving this and putting some effort into building and maintaining it? If you are, let me and the other editors over at WT:MOTOR know and we can provide some help if needed.  Adrian M. H.  01:48, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I added info in all the fields and I think the portal can "go online" hopefully more people will find out about it and contribute to it then I will also be adding more info in the next few days. My motorcycle racing knowledge is limited to circuit racing (motoGP, superbikes etc...) if the portal scope can be limited to that I would be happy to maintain it by myself otherwise I can handle that but others must handle the rest (off road etc...) Chris Ssk (talk) 23:26, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

MotoGP team articles
Hi guys. I was wondering what you thought about the idea of creating articles for the various teams in MotoGP and whether it is worth doing. Unlike car racing series like F1, teams don't seem to be that important in MotoGP as it is more about the manufacturers and the bikes. I believe that the only team that currently has an article is the Yamaha Factory Racing Team and to say that it is lacking in content would be an understatement. I would be happy to start making the articles if you think it's worth it, but I'm not entirely sure that it is. We'd need a much better infobox for a start, equal to the quality of the one for F1 teams. So do you guys think that this is a project worth pursuing? Christophee 23:45, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I also found the WCM team page but the page had all sorts of violations and will most likely be deleted. Chris Ssk (talk) 23:43, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject:Motorcycle Racing
I have started a discussion about the recently-created WikiProject Motorcycle Racing at WP:MOTOR. I invite you to contribute to the discussion. DH85868993 (talk) 00:58, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Proposed cat renaming
I've also proposed Category:Grand Prix motorcycle races by year be renamed to Category:Grand Prix motorcycle racing seasons. Please add any comments you may have here. Thanks. DH85868993 (talk) 02:59, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Looks ok to meOrsoni (talk) 00:23, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

New template for circuits
After noticing that most racing categories had a circuit navbox, I created once for Grand Prix motorcycle racing. So feel free to add it to all circuits. Asendoh (talk) 15:46, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

New Template for GP seasons
I created a new template called Template:GP. This will save the hassle of typing out 2008 when linking to a specific season. Now you just enter (or whatever year you want) and it will fill in the link. Stolen from Template:F1. ♫ Bitch and Complain Sooner ♫ (talk) 08:23, 22 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmmm. I'm wondering whether "GP" was the best name to use, since the term "Grand Prix" isn't specific to motorcycle Grand Prix racing. Perhaps MGP might have been better? I'm not especially passionate about this, but if consensus is for it to be changed, it would be easier to do it now, while the template is still used in (relatively) few articles. DH85868993 (talk) 02:30, 24 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Updated to MGP. That does make more sense.  Less chance for confusion down the road.  ♫ Bitch and Complain Sooner ♫ (talk) 17:46, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

500 cc vs. 500cc
Could we get a consensus on whether or not to include a space between "500" and "cc"? I feel the formatting looks bad with the space, not to mention all my GP year-in-review tapes have no space. MotoGP.com doesn't include spaces either. Some article have it one way, some the other way. It's nitpicky but still drives me crazy. Thank you. ♫ Bitch and Complain Sooner ♫ (talk) 08:27, 22 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I believe  (500 cc) is the way supported by the Manual of Style. Prolog (talk) 18:15, 22 March 2008 (UTC)


 * 500cc, 250cc, and 125cc is the way the governing body of the sport lists the classes. While I understand it's a measurement of the engine's displacement, it is also the title of the class.  MotoGP, in theory, should be Moto GP but they spell it without the space.  Someone searching for "500cc/250cc/125cc" is likely going to search without the space.  I feel this is an example where the Manual of Style should not be followed.  Just my opinion.  See MotoGP.com for examples.  ♫ Bitch and Complain Sooner ♫ (talk) 19:14, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

The term "MotoGP" should not have a space. DORNA holds the copyright to the name MotoGP, so they call the shots, regardless of proper English useage. - Chuck Lantz

Merging
As per the decision reached here, I'm merging the two wikiprojects, the content of WikiProject Grand Prix motorcycle racing has been archived and the page redirected, but I need an admin to merge the talk pages. Chris Ssk talk 01:19, 3 April 2008 (UTC)