Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Motorcycling/Archive 8

Category:Fastest production motorcycles
Category:Fastest production motorcycles is probably going to be deleted. I don't understand the reasoning over at CfD; WP:NOTDUP seems to mean nothing to them. They don't seem to care what WP:CAT says is the fundamental purpose of categories.Anyway if you can think of an argument that can change their minds, please try. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 23:54, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Draft article: Harley-Davidson Model W
I have drafted an article in my userspace: User:SamBlob/Harley-Davidson Model W. I was looking to expand it a bit more before moving it or having it moved into article space. In particular, I see the motorcycle listed in List of motorcycles in The Art of the Motorcycle exhibition, but I don't have access to any sources stating that it was actually there.

Any help in developing the draft, or in preparation to have facts from the article nominated for DYK, would be appreciated.

Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 02:30, 20 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I added what Daniel K. Statnekov wrote in the Art of the Motorcycle catalog. It's interesting how similar the strategy always is to fix the usual complaints from non-motorcyclists about motorcycles -- difficult, dirty, noisy -- to attract new riders, from the Model W to the Honda Super Cub to the BMW F650CS to the new crossover scooter/motorcycles like the BMW C600 Sport and C650GT and Honda NC700D Integra. For some reason the only time it really worked was the Super Cub. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 03:36, 20 July 2012 (UTC)


 * The Vespa might be counted as a success, but I'm not sure. Other failures would include the Ner-a-Car, the Velocette LE, and maybe the Honda Pacific Coast. Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 11:40, 20 July 2012 (UTC)


 * There's a group of patents on the Model W such as, and  that you can download in PDF and put hi-res copies of the drawings on Commons from, since the copyright is expired.  The combined clutch and transmission with the crankcase, and would be a good illustration. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 05:17, 20 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks for all the help and advice with the article! I'll work on the illustrations from the patents when I get back from work this evening (it's ~06h40 now).  What I might do in the meantime is add one of the existing photos of the Model W from the Art of the Automobile exhibition in Commons as a thumbnail.  Thanks again! Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 11:40, 20 July 2012 (UTC)


 * One question, though: Do copyrights on US patents start when the applications are filed or when the patents are granted?  If they start when they are filed, then all of this is public domain, but if they start when they are granted, then some of these were granted in or after 1923 and might be subject to copyright, especially since William Harley died less than seventy years ago (less than sixty-nine, even; his works won't become public domain until sometime next year September). Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 01:40, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * There's any number of grounds for this to be public domain. First, in general all patents contents are Public Domain . You could (and should) stop right there and go ahead and upload the images, but there's more. Second, see : after 1989 a copyright notice is required on patents. Third, even if it wasn't a patent, applying for a patent in 1919 means published before 1923 because applications are public. Fourth, even if all that didn't apply, there's no copyright notice on these documents, and anything published 1923-1977 without a copyright notice goes to public domain.. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 18:40, 22 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Actually, according to Submarine patent, until the last two months of the 20th century, US patent applications were kept secret until the patent was granted, which is why I've started uploading the drawings where the patent was granted in 1919 but not the ones where the patents were granted in 1923 and 1924.


 * However, the first and fourth do apply to all three, so I'll get on it right away.


 * Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 21:54, 22 July 2012 (UTC)


 * We now have a fairly decent draft article (I think; please let me know if I'm wrong), and I have a fairly decent hook ready. All that's left is to figure out nomination for DYK, which means either: (a) someone who hasn't been involved in drafting the article will have to nominate it, or (b) I will have to evaluate a DYK article, which will involve me having to learn how to check for close paraphrasing, beacuse I have tried to do that three times now and I've not figured it out yet. Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 01:10, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Just paste the article URL and each source URL into http://toolserver.org/~dcoetzee/duplicationdetector/ and look for long stretches of text that are the same. I usually set the minimum number of words to 3 or 4, although you could check it at 2 but you get a lot of false positives. E.g. Even if the nominator didn't work on the article, they still have to do a quid pro quo evaluation if they have more than 5 DYK credits. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 01:50, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * O.K., will try to review one this week, including the close paraphrasing check. Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 03:04, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The article has been created and nominated for DYK. Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 03:40, 10 August 2012 (UTC)


 * If you pipe the name Harley-Davidson Model W (see Rule B3) you can cut three words from the hook, plus wiki link to Harley-Davidson:
 * ... that the flat-twin in the 1919–1923 Model W (pictured) was Harley-Davidson's first flathead engine?
 * Unless I'm mistaken, the shorter the hook, the better, all else being equal. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 02:21, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Sounds great! I've added it to the template as an alternate hook. Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 03:26, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Crappy "List of..." articles
I just had a major clean out at List of Honda motorcycles. Lists are meant to be navigation aids, not exhaustive directories of every single model ever made by a company. To that end I have removed all the red links and what is left is a very useful (IMHO) list of all the Honda motorcycle-related articles on Wikipedia.

Before I go and do the same to other list articles (Yamaha, Kawasaki, etc.) I would be interested in hearing opinions on whether it is a worthwhile or correct exercise. --Biker Biker (talk) 10:11, 29 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Sure, it's better. It would be even better to remove the redundancy by putting it in a sortable table. I started to do that at Talk:List of Honda motorcycles/Workpage but it became too daunting so I left it for later. The lists are also a good place to explore each brand's nomenclature scheme, and the exceptions. I've got a couple good sources for Honda's system. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 15:55, 29 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I just did the first half of the article as multiple columns to see how it looks. Would be interested to see what others think - feel free to revert if you think it looks awful as I'm not yet convinced. I just thought it needed something to make it physically shorter than 16ft 7in. --Biker Biker (talk) 17:04, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Conventions
I just made a start on WikiProject Motorcycling/Conventions - still work in progress and not linked from anywhere else. I would appreciate if anyone else interested could have a look and do some editing. To make it easy I started with the conventions from the automobile project (which should be obvious as you get to the second half of the page as I'm not that far down yet). --Biker Biker (talk) 20:59, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Article rescue - Suzuki GSX-R series
As it stands this article is a steaming great pile of original research in need of rescue. Anyone fancy a crack at it? Given the importance of the gixxer family, the article should be a jewel not a turd. --Biker Biker (talk) 22:36, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
 * It is an important article and a worthwhile project. I can't say if I'll have time to do research. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 23:43, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

1930s Stretch Motorcycle query
This is some info, a photo, and a question about the early history of stretch motorcycles.

My father, Jonathan Hall (1912-2008), was an enthusiast of Indian motorcycles in his youth. He told the story of how, when he was in college, he chopped two Indian scouts, one long from the front, the other long from the back, and welded the long pieces together to make a stretched motorcycle. He rode it in some road trips in college, and he said that he had to practically lie down to ride it, reducing wind resistance. He was at Rollins College from 1930-1934. Until now, there was no photo, just the story. This year my brother and I have been cleaning out the family home for sale, and this week some motorcycle photos turned up. I found a print of the stretch Indian taken at Gallaudet U. in DC in front of his family home. I have scanned it here: Stretched Indian: ca. 1930-1934

I have been trying to learn more about the history of chopping and stretching bikes and so came to the Wiki article on choppers. This history, as well as others on the web, say that say this practice started in the post WWII years. There is a photo in the Chopper article of "one of the oldest" chopped bikes, with no date. What is known about pre-WWII customization? Is the photo I have of interest to those of you writing about motorcycle history? Other photos of my Dad and his motorcycles are here: Jonathan Hall gallery I am willing to upload photos to wiki media if they are wanted. I have piles of photos to go through, and I will upload more motorcycle images to my photo gallery as I find and scan them.

Thanks

Stephanie Hall shall at boo dotnet — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shall53 (talk • contribs) 14:24, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Honda CB77
Honda CB77 needs watching --Dennis Bratland (talk) 15:17, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Article cleanup list
Anybody know how to refresh WikiProject Motorcycling/Cleanup listing? I was going to take a start and noticed that the list is over two years old. — Brianhe (talk) 18:10, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Looks like it's over here: http://toolserver.org/~svick/CleanupListing/CleanupListing.php?project=Motorcycling --Dennis Bratland (talk) 18:28, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
 * As the hatnote at WikiProject Motorcycling/Cleanup listing says it will not be updated, so other source must be used. ww2censor (talk) 19:03, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

South Bay Riders
I just nominated South Bay Riders for deletion as a marketing puff piece for a non-notable web forum. Your mileage may vary and objects in the rear view mirror may be closer than they appear, so please feel free to comment for or against at Articles for deletion/South Bay Riders. --Biker Biker (talk) 17:52, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Vagos Motorcycle Club in need of attention
Vagos Motorcycle Club has been "updated" by some editors that seem to have a clear vested interest in the club. It would help if other editors of this project could take a look at the article and clean up as necessary. --Biker Biker (talk) 18:33, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Numpty IP repeatedly adding unsourced information to Chang Jiang (motorcycle)
Cleanup alert! Chang Jiang (motorcycle) keeps getting swamped with unsourced info. It would be nice to have this article be much more than a stub, but it needs to be properly sourced. Anyone care to sort it, or keep an eye on the IP editor? --Biker Biker (talk) 09:32, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Motocross training


The article Motocross training has been proposed for deletion&#32; because of the following concern:
 * Completely unsourced HOWTO, unlikely to developed into an acceptable article, has been languishing essentially unchanged for years.

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Brianhe (talk) 17:51, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Kawasaki Z650 in need of attention
Kawasaki Z650 needs some serious attention - most of which involves removing the large amount of excessive trivia and POV commentary. I have made a start. To ensure my efforts are balanced and not one-sided, is anyone interested in carrying on? --Biker Biker (talk) 09:19, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

CB450 on Honda timeline
The Honda timeline (street) only seems to go back to '70, and it would be cool if it went back further. Also, the CB450 was produced into the 70's, and should be included on the timeline. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.64.10.89 (talk) 01:25, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Nick Ienatsch draft article
WikiProject Motorcycling/Nick Ienatsch

Hope I put the draft in the right place this time! Needs some facts filled in for completion:
 * Date of birth
 * Current residence (may be Las Vegas)
 * Spouse (may be Judy)
 * Verify dates for teaching and writing

Cheers — Brianhe (talk) 01:01, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Did some cleanup and promoted this to Nick Ienatsch today. — Brianhe (talk) 21:41, 24 November 2012 (UTC)


 * As an aside, have any of you subscribed to fastersafer.com? I'm intrigued by what it offers and the $48 minimum commitment (6 x $7.99) isn't too bad, but would prefer to hear from someone who can offer an opinion. --Biker Biker (talk) 07:45, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Is Fischer Motor Company still in business?
I cannot find any more recent reference than 2009 for Fischer Motor Company. Are they still in business? --Biker Biker (talk) 10:30, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Their Twitter account @FisherMC is still active (albeit very patchily). Nanonic (talk) 15:59, 24 November 2012 (UTC)


 * ReferenceUSA lists $782,000 in sales volume for 2011, which is the latest data available. But they only list 2 employees. They sell branded merchandise, so they could be hanging on that way while they bike business is getting going. Hard to say. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 16:23, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Proposed category rename
Propose renaming decade categories for concision and symmetry with other transport categories. Example, Category:Motorcycles introduced in the 1950s to be renamed to 1950s motorcycles. See Category:1950s in transport for examples used by other projects. — Brianhe (talk) 23:12, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The proposed format is unclear— as a "1950s motorcycle" could be any motorcycle produced during the 1950s— and the trend at CfD has been to favor unambiguous category names even at the expense of wordiness. Like Category:Vehicles by year of introduction and Category:Locomotives by year of introduction, the motorcycle introduction year categories follow the convention for manufactured goods (other than aircraft), which in turn is the prevalent format throughout Category:Establishments by year and Category:Introductions by year.- choster (talk) 05:52, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Category:Road movies and motorcycling in fiction
A couple different editors keep adding Category:Motorcycling in fiction to Category:Road movies. See Category talk:Motorcycling in fiction. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 16:56, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It should be motorcycle films not fiction into road movies, while they go from one place to another. Chase films doesn't have a lot of road movies but it is still used there for the detail example of running on the road or driving from someone.-- GoShow (............................)   21:25, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I undid you sub-category change. Can we keep one disucssion going forward at Category talk:Motorcycling in fiction? — Brianhe (talk) 22:45, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * What's with the chase films as if it is not compared to anything with road movies as three-fourths of them don't even compare with road movies. GoShow  (............................)   21:25, 4 December 2012 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.34.88.254 (talk)

Is Bikeexif a reliable source?
Is this a Reliable source appropriate for articles such as Falcon Motorcycles, or is it a fansite/blog? — Brianhe (talk) 01:12, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm a huge fan of bikeexif, which in turn is a huge fan(site) of motorcycles. Definitely not a reliable source but something to bookmark and return to time after time to lust after some amazing images. --Biker Biker (talk) 08:01, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I've always thought it was unreliable. But then they started publishing interviews which can have certain value, if you're trying to find a basic fact about a person or find out what their opinion is for an article about them. Then they started getting heavyweights like David Edwards to write for them occasionally.. Seems hard to be sure with BikeExif. Maybe some of their content can be cited for certain types of facts? Such as WP:SPS, or if the author is considered reliable? I don't think I'd ever want to base notability on a BikeExif post though. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 16:38, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Re-reading the citation shows this is a moot point as far as Falcon Motorcycles is concerned. The list of the "Falcon Ten" was not backed up by the bikeexif source and appears to be crystal ball territory at this point. You can get the list from ianbarry.com but no secondary sources. I've relabeled the factoid as "citation needed". Brianhe (talk) 20:02, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't see anything wrong with saying "Barry has announced that he intends to build the following 7 bikes to complete the series..." While WP:CRYSTAL says product announcements in of themselves are non-encyclopedic, the central point of Falcon is their plan to build a series of 10 bikes. It would be like refusing to mention the announced titles of the second and third films in The Hobbit (film series). Wouldn't write a whole article about a future product, but in the context of a notable company, it's verifiable that Barry has made the announcement. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:03, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Bike Exif is not a 'research' site, but does give links to its sources. Typical daily blog posts are reworded press releases from Custom motorcycle builders, which seems a dodgy source for wiki reference.  My answer regarding BikeExif's suitability; 'depends on the article/subject'.  I agree the interviews are solid references regarding the interviewees, but I'm biased, as I was their first interview! -- Vintagent  —Preceding undated comment added 20:15, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

RfC on the use of flag icons for sportspeople
An RfC discussion about the MOS:FLAG restriction on the use of flag icons for sportspeople has been opened at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Icons. We invite all interested participants to provide their opinion here. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:40, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Kawasaki Ninja ZX-12
See Talk:Kawasaki Ninja ZX-12R. Kawasaki Ninja ZX-12R is getting inflated speed claims coming from the user-generated content at bikez.com. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 02:41, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Looks like he got bored and dropped his one-man campaign. Nice defence work! --Biker Biker (talk) 09:20, 18 November 2012 (UTC)


 * This article continues to be an issue. See Talk:Kawasaki Ninja ZX-12R. Apparently there's forums on the web that have convinced themselves they've uncovered a conspiracy to deceive the public, and every once in a while one of them comes here to publicize the "truth". Needs some disupte resolution to avoid 3RR violations. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 01:20, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Could it be that there was a difference between the EU/UK models and the US or Asian models? --Trofobi (talk) 01:44, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Roland Brown is a UK motoring journalist. Cycle World and Motorcycle Consumer News are US. The anonymous web post cited claims they were using a US spec model. If an Asian model was different, nobody has offered any hint of evidence, and that wouldn't be relevant here anyway. The web post is an elaborate tale that leaves out many key details. Like why Muzzy went to all that expense. And why so many different publications were in on this apparent conspiracy. It doesn't pass the smell test.If it at least had a reputable person's name to it and we had some idea what the nature of the publisher is (club? magazine? journal? company?) we could cite it as a contrary opinion. But it looks just like Internet lore to me. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 02:01, 8 January 2013 (UTC)


 * One odd detail is that Muzzy didn't take delivery from a Kawasaki dealer. They had the crated bikes shipped directly to them, and did the dealer prep themselves. Why were they getting a bike direct from the manufacturer? Did they really get the stock bike or something else? They claim they did all the procedures that the dealer would have done. But they're not a Kawasaki dealer; they're a muffler shop. All very weird. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 02:06, 8 January 2013 (UTC)


 * The article is nothing more than a vehicle for Muzzys to promote their exhausts. I suspect the website simply took Muzzys' press release and reprinted it.

Ominous edits
First, this one gives me bad memories of User:MalcolmMcDonald, then this one gives me even more bad memories, this time of User:Bridge Boy. I hope I'm just overreacting, but I think we should be on the alert for thest people. Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 03:31, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Don't remember the first person. Do remember the second, and you may be overreacting (there was no dash in parallel-twin) but I will keep a watch out. --Biker Biker (talk) 08:01, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

WikiProject Motorcycling New Year's resolutions anyone?
Happy New Year to my motorcycling friends here on WikiProject Motorcycling. I have decided that this year I will create a minimum of 12 new motorcycle-related articles. --Biker Biker (talk) 00:06, 3 January 2013 (UTC)


 * So what are yours?


 * I'm still wishing to get control of my time and to be able to concentrate on one task for more than 5 minutes at a time. Been wanting to get back to that place for months now. Once I do, I'll be back to work on my list of tasks. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 02:40, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Kevin Ash RIP
Kevin Ash was killed in a motorcycle crash at a bike launch event in South Africa.. Very sad news. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 15:50, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Holy crap! Admittedly he is the only motorcycling journalist I have ever met, but he was such a fantastic man and I respected his writing greatly (as evidenced by the number of times I have used him as a reference in articles). --Biker Biker (talk) 21:33, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Terrible news. Should our remembrance take the form of a biography to replace the redlink Kevin Ash? We have bios posted now on The Telegraph and MCN, probably more to come. — Brianhe (talk) 22:49, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Happy to contribute. --Biker Biker (talk) 22:52, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Bibliography:

More biographical links:. His having once been banned from Triumph launches is an interesting addition to questions about the credibility of motorjournalism, along with allegations of providing upgraded test vehicles to journalists. Also. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 03:10, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I've created a stub article at Kevin Ash using some but not all of the sources above. Dennis, I invite you to add the info on credibility and prepped bikes. — Brianhe (talk) 16:20, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Comments welcome on table font sizes in motorcycle racing articles
In late December I attempted to gain consensus on the removal of small font sizes from tables in the multitude of MotoGP articles. I only got one reply and would appreciate some more opinions. See Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Motorcycle_racing. --Biker Biker (talk) 22:19, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Port Dover (Canada) Friday the 13th Rally
I had never heard of this rally before, but according to at least some sources it attracts over 100,000 participants, which makes it big enough for our "large rallies" template (if renamed to include Canada). Just wanted to drop a note here before starting to work on an article.

Potential sources More sources, images, etc. appreciated for an article. — Brianhe (talk) 23:19, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
 * (largest rally up to 2010, >150,000 attendance)
 * 30,000 attendance estimated; did they get the Guiness record?
 * (largest rally up to 2010, >150,000 attendance)
 * 30,000 attendance estimated; did they get the Guiness record?
 * (largest rally up to 2010, >150,000 attendance)
 * 30,000 attendance estimated; did they get the Guiness record?


 * Friday the 13th motorcycle rally has just been created. An image is still needed. Also moved navbox to American motorcycle rallies to include this. — Brianhe (talk) 18:15, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Anti-lock braking system for motorcycles
Is this an unnecessary fork that should be merged into and redirected to Anti-lock braking system, or is it good to be a standalone article? I favour the former. Discuss... --Biker Biker (talk) 07:30, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * My position is wait and see for now. This article needs a lot of improvement and cleanup before it would even be eligible to merge into Anti-lock braking system. — Brianhe (talk) 20:18, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I just noticed the anon editor working on this has an IP address assigned to Bosch. Tagged user talk page COI but this probably needs some extra watching. — Brianhe (talk) 18:19, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Request for comment - flying car concepts
A request for comment has been posted at Talk:Flying car (aircraft) and input from members of this project is solicited. The question at hand is what criteria should be established to list a concept flying car in the article? RFC notice has been added here because one of the models is described as a "flying motorbike." — Brianhe (talk) 17:36, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Volumes of production
I have modified Piaggio, previously claimed as fourth, down to fourteenth. In order of production numbers I have from Global Insights, Isupply and Freedonia in 2008: Honda, Yamaha, Jiangmen, Suzuki, Loncin, Bajaj, Jailin, Jianche, Lifan, ACEM, HMSI, TVS, Harley, Kawasaki and then Piaggio. So they may have moved a place or two, but they are a long way off fourth. I expect there are some equally inaccurate claimes eleswhere. Mike163 (talk) 08:50, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for fixing that, Mike. When you add this to any article, be sure and add a citation with, at a minimum, the title of the Global Insight report, the date, and publisher. Author, page number, ISBN, OCLC, and such details are also helpful if you have them. An online URL is nice, but not mandatory. Offline sources are just fine. Sources behind a paywall are just fine. You can just put the citation in parentheses, or inside tags, or use the full citation format of the article, as explained in Referencing for beginners, Citing sources and Help:FootnotesDon't worry about getting the formatting perfect. The important thing is to put the information somewhere, in the article, in your edit summary, or the talk page. If the citation is there somehow, then someone else can use it to make the formatting pretty. Thanks! --Dennis Bratland (talk) 16:23, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Motorcycle pod


The article Motorcycle pod has been proposed for deletion&#32; because of the following concern:
 * Promotional article, no reliable sources, does not meet general notability guideline

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Brianhe (talk) 02:52, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
 * This article's proposed deletion is uncontested so it's probably going away tomorrow. We may want to pull the item into Motorcycle accessories but I'm not sure it's even notable enough for that (although there is a picture). — Brianhe (talk) 23:22, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

List of Motorcycle Club terms
One user's labour of love, but with a fundamental problem - it's not encyclopaedic. Wikipedia is not a dictionary. What do others think? --Biker Biker (talk) 06:27, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The sourcing is terrible. It almost all comes from which is just a copy-paste blog post from  squidoo Biker-Lingo which is some guy's personal site. And which I can't link to because the spam filter blocks it. Many of the terms are generic slang not related to motorcycle clubs (like meth "cooker"), and others are just the author's opinions. It's also very close to a copy-paste from the Squidoo source, which is "Copyright © 2013, Squidoo, LLC and respective copyright owners". --Dennis Bratland (talk) 06:43, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Portal:Sports is up for featured portal consideration
This is a courtesy message to inform the members of this project that I have nominated Portal:Sports for featured portal status. The discussion is at Wikipedia:Featured portal candidates/Portal:Sports. The featured portal criteria are at Featured portal criteria. Please feel free to weigh in.  S ven M anguard  Wha?  18:37, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Curtiss V-8
Curtiss V-8 is currently a redirect, but this historic machine ought to have its own article. I've started a draft at User:Brianhe/Curtiss V-8 motorcycle and everybody in the project is of course invited to contribute. — Brianhe (talk) 18:54, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Dennis and I worked on this a bit, so today I moved it to Curtiss V-8 motorcycle. — Brianhe (talk) 17:56, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Airhead (motorcycle) merge discussion
A discussion on whether to merge Airhead (motorcycle) into History of BMW motorcycles has been started at Talk:History of BMW motorcycles. Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 14:21, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Suggested amend to guidelines
Dear all,

I suggest an amend to the following guideline, from:


 * Colors — Color schemes or trim options are generally not mentioned, as these vary by country. As with prices and trivia, the exception is if reliable sources are cited showing a color scheme was notable.

to:


 * Colors — Color schemes or trim options are generally not mentioned, as these vary by country. As with prices and trivia, the exception is if reliable sources are cited showing a color scheme was notable, or where available color schemes do no vary by country/market.

for the following reasons:


 * this information increases the thoroughness of articles about a particular bike
 * knowing colours offered each year is helpful for users researching a particular bike, for example to facilitate identification of model year when purchasing a preowned bike
 * ease of locating names of various colours used during different model years, for example when attempting to purchase touch-up paint (this can be a difficult task as manufacturers often do not provide information on models sold before the current model year)
 * I was looking for this information and could not find it without digging through the manufacturer's electronic parts catalogue—therefore it stands to reason that there are others who might be looking for this information

Example of implementation with citation pointing to manufacturer's international site:

F800GS F650GS (2008–12) and F700GS (2013–)

Thoughts? Questions? Comments?

Many thanks --Duffs10 (talk) 02:56, 27 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "Increasing thoroughness" doesn't mean much. It would be more "thorough" to find out the first and last name of the factory foreman where the bike was manufactured, but does that fact mean anything? You can add more facts in a way that move you closer to insight, and you can just pile facts on facts and get nowhere.
 * Helping buy a pre-owned bike: Wikipedia is NOT a buyer's guide. Per WP:NOTCATALOG it is not the function of an encyclopedia to help you decide which stuff to buy. None of our articles exist to help shoppers shop.
 * Buying paint: again, not a buyer's guide, and WP:NOTMANUAL. Finding the correct parts for your bike is now what an encyclopedia is for.
 * Others might want it. Maybe. Remember that Wikipedia is not the whole internet. Wikipedia is not a repository of all knowledge. Wikipedia cannot be a substitute for every other web site and publication in existence. Wikipedia does the job of an encyclopedia, and other media do their job. WP:USEFUL has more insight on why "useful" needs more reasons to back it up.
 * Putting the colors in boxes is way too distracting, and looks terrible. The display you get with color:#FFFFFF" looks nothing like the actual paint on a bike, so it's meaningless. What's wrong with just having a photo of a bike?


 * Examples of cases where I'm OK with talking about colors are the copper/white scheme of the 1999 Suzuki Hayabusa, because multiple sources stated that it mattered to them. The other Hayabusa colors are insignificant. The color tones of the BMW F650CS were important because multiple sources said so. Not the specific colors themselves, but the choice of tones sent a message, mainly that the bike wanted to be like an Apple computer of that period. It connected the F650CS with prior attempts to make motorcycling more accessible to non-motorcyclists, like the successful Honda Super Cub and the failed Harley-Davidson Model W. Connections are meaningful.Bikes like the first generation Honda VTR250 had very 1980s/early 1990s pastels, pinks and blues, that were very dated to the styles of the time. That's about something; it connects the bike to larger social currents. I don't care that they offered a blue one and a black one and a yellow/red one. I want to know what the colors meant. On most bikes, the colors meant nothing, so don't mention them. On a few bikes, they matter, so put your attention there. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 03:22, 27 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Apologies for the late reply, I was away for Easter. I recognise that my examples are not fantastic, but nevertheless people use wikipedia for a variety of reasons which may or may not include making informed decisions on purchases or for any other number of reasons. I agree that the factory foreman is irrelevant since he/she does not come as a standard feature of a new motorbike. I take your point regarding the 'blue one' and the 'black one' since this means nothing, however 'Lava Orange Metallic' and 'Biarritz Blue Metallic' now link directly to the model and/or manufacturer, and are therefore no longer simply arbitrary hues. Regarding aesthetics, it is easy enough to tidy up the table to make it lower profile and address any concerns for those with colour vision deficiencies.


 * So... moving on, I wholeheartedly agree that a collection of photos to illustrate a selection of colour schemes or versions of a bike is a sensible idea which would offer a truer representation of the colours in reality compared with HTML hex codes, however the last time I attempted to do so you will find it was promptly removed. Along with a good proportion of the population, I primarily absorb information visually and emotionally (so called right-brained), so charts and photos are very good things. In my experience, this seems to be the minority among contributors to Wikipedia who tend towards logic and reason (so called left-brained)—not a criticism, as one is no better/worse than the other, but simply the nature of the beast.


 * --Duffs10 (talk) 21:44, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but I really don't see how detailed information about paint colours is encyclopaedic. It is trivial and adds no value to the article. I especially dislike the use of coloured text, which a) causes problems for people with visual acuity problems, b) does not reproduce the actual colour and c) like Dennis says is way too distracting and looks terrible. --Biker Biker (talk) 06:36, 27 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Message loud and clear—there is no confusion about what you don't like. I would, however, be interested in knowing your thoughts on what you do consider to be areas for improvement for the benefit of the greater community. Transparency, please.


 * --Duffs10 (talk) 21:44, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Kevin Ash synth?
See Talk:Kevin Ash. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 00:46, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Vetter Streamliner draft
WikiProject Motorcycling/Vetter Streamliner is a fairly well developed draft. Posted for project members' review and contributions. — Brianhe (talk) 14:59, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Moved to article space: Vetter Streamliner. — Brianhe (talk) 04:17, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Moto Guzzi Stelvio translation
Started a translation from German Wikipedia here: WikiProject Motorcycling/Moto Guzzi Stelvio. I'll be working on this as time allows. — Brianhe (talk) 00:41, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Vetter Mystery Ship draft
WikiProject Motorcycling/Vetter Mystery Ship posted for project members' review and contributions. — Brianhe (talk) 04:18, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Moved to article space: Vetter Mystery Ship. — Brianhe (talk) 00:20, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

File for deletion
The fair-use image of dead journalist Kevin Ash has been nominated for deletion. See --Biker Biker (talk) 21:17, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Honda timeline templates
The Honda timeline template was starting to look a bit crowded as it covered 1990-2012, and would have been more so if I added 2013, so I took the decision to split off a 1990s template to go with the existing 1970s and 1980s. All link to each other in a proper sequential manner, and hopefully I haven't bolloxed anything up (too much...) --Biker Biker (talk) 14:11, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Help needed at Articles for Creation
Please take a look at Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Yamaha XJ750E-II and particularly at the discussion in the "review header" at the top of the page. Input from subject specialists is requested. Thanks Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 11:17, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

File:Italian landing at Sitia 1941.jpg
File:Italian landing at Sitia 1941.jpg has been nominated for deletion -- 65.94.79.6 (talk) 02:01, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Alligator Motorcycle, Dan Gurney Alligator Motorcycle Company.jpg
has been nominated for deletion -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 07:08, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

The wave
I was thinking of starting an article about the motorcyclist wave, and think I have good sources... But am not sure what to call it. Sources are inconsistent in their terminology. Motorcyclists wave? Possessive as in Motorcyclists' wave? Or just The wave (motorcycling)? — Brianhe (talk) 06:27, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
 * There's no article on waving at all, under Category:Greetings. On List of greetings waving is piped to List of gestures. The last point at WP:DEFINITE says that the "(motorcycling)" suffix implies there is a set of articles on waving, so "in motorcycling" is preferred. I'd probably go with Waving in motorcycling. Or possibly Motorcycling greetings if there will be much mention of greetings other than waving. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 15:39, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Funny that the "civilian" wave isn't documented yet. Wave (gesture) could be pulled over. Brianhe (talk) 16:15, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I brought Wave (gesture) over from the Simple English Wikipedia, and started Motorcycling greetings. — Brianhe (talk) 19:12, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, it would be nice to add the head-pat gesture to warn of upcoming police but I'm having trouble with adequate sourcing. — Brianhe (talk) 23:50, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Also, there is the wave that other vehicle owners use. For example there is a wave associated with Jeep owners.War (talk) 05:02, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Rex ACME 350 TT 1926 Wal Handley.jpg
image:Rex ACME 350 TT 1926 Wal Handley.jpg has been nominated for deletion -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 02:37, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Southern 100.jpg
image:Southern 100.jpg has been nominated for deletion -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 03:39, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Mmcclogo2.jpg
image:Mmcclogo2.jpg has been nominated for deletion -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 03:45, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

John Young Sangster.jpg
image:John Young Sangster.jpg has been nominated for deletion -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 04:29, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Alligator Motorcycle, Dan Gurney Alligator Motorcycle Company.jpg
image:Alligator Motorcycle, Dan Gurney Alligator Motorcycle Company.jpg has been nominated for deletion, again -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 09:00, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Bridgestone 350 GTR
Hello here! I've written an article about the Bridgestone 350 GTR, which is the first motorcycle-related article I've written (my previous vehicular articles have been on cars) so could someone tweak it to fit the standard styles of this WikiProject please? :) Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 18:43, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Category:Craig Vetter
Category:Craig Vetter, which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. — Brianhe (talk) 17:09, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Hello! There is a DR/N request you may have interest in.
This message is being sent to let you know of a discussion at the Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding a content dispute discussion you may have participated in. Content disputes can hold up article development and make editing difficult for editors. You are not required to participate, but you are both invited and encouraged to help find a resolution. The thread is "Lane splitting".The discussion is about the topic Lane splitting. Please join us to help form a consensus. Thank you! --Dennis Bratland (talk) 16:37, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Women In The Wind

 * Context: The article being discussed is Women in the Wind (motorcycle club) — Brianhe (talk)

I am VERY new to the create/edit function of WIKI, my past experience has been solely when looking for information... so please try and have some patience with me. Our organization "Women In The Wind" has for some time been frustrated by the inaccurate information presented on the wiki page someone was kind enough to create. Our president has attempted to make edits but they keep getting reversed, as well as we see no way to edit the title. We are not a MC (Motorcycle Club) - and it is VERY pertinent this be removed from our name. We have a significant anniversary and several milestones coming up and would like to have our organization either properly represented or removed. Is there someone who can guide us in fixing this mess? THANK YOU! ~ Please feel free to contact our president or founder via the contact form on our website. http://www.womeninthewind.org/

I will also monitor this message. ~Beth — Preceding unsigned comment added by BethG219 (talk • contribs) 16:28, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I changed it from MC to (motorcycle club) to disambiguate the article from Women in the Wind (the movie), per WP:NCDAB. After endless discussions, we have been using the term "motorcycle club" to mean any club that involves motorcycles. This has been debated a lot at Patriot Guard Riders. Articles like Motorcycle club and Outlaw motorcycle club explain to the general public the 1%er/outlaw jargon, where MC is an outlaw club and "riding club" or "brand club" is the kind that doesn't defend territory. But this is not mainstream terminology, and for the average person it's very confusing. Wikipedia uses plain English, not dialect, jargon, or subculture lingo. It's fine if Women in the Wind (motorcycle club) mentions that it's not an outlaw motorcycle club, but using stilted language like "motorcycle organization" is not.We could change a whole bunch of articles to use the outlaw jargon, but so far there's no consensus for that. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:59, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Throwing in my 2 cents ... apparently someone connected with the club objects to the use of "MC" in connection with the club. However one of the publications about the club that makes it notable, a BBC documentary, calls it Women in the Wind MC right in the title. So that's going to be an uphill battle to demonstrate that it's somehow incorrect. — Brianhe (talk) 02:03, 18 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you both... I appreciate the change and explanation to (motorcycle club). Can we not just use "Women in the Wind, Inc." the proper name as stated on home page of website Http://www.womeninthewind.org to disambiguate?  I can understand the rationale of "motorcycle club" in the article, however the title issue came to light as it appears on facebook from wiki.


 * As far as "someone connected with the club objects" its not an objection so much as it is false. That was either a chapter running rogue saying (wishing) they were a MC, a producer taking license for ratings, or a different "club" altogether - filmed 15 years ago.  I can find no other reference to it other than the BBC database & this article.  The only UK chapter currently in existence joined in the last year.  Chapter charter certificates do not contain MC, nor does the newsletter or organization website.  With exception to a recent article where MC was mentioned... Shootin' The Breeze, published by Women in the Wind, Inc.  (Can be uploaded online if necessary) The article clearly states WITW is NOT a MC and the letters MC are not permitted anywhere that Women in the Wind or WTIW is written or referred to. --BethG219 (talk) 06:42, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

The thing is, everything you've mentioned is a primary source and a BBC documentary trumps each one, even if 15 years old. You might want to read WP:verifiability not truth if this seems strange to you, but it is how Wikipedia works. — Brianhe (talk) 15:32, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
 * If Women In The Wind have a published newsletter, I think that may qualify as a reliable source. This may be a time when the Fifth Pillar of Wikipedia applies. That policies and guidelines are not carved in stone. See: Reasonability Rule.Orsoni (talk) 17:22, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
 * The parenthetical disambiguation tells readers exactly what this thing is: a motorcycle club. In the vernacular. Using "Inc" violates Naming conventions (companies) and would just confuse readers solely for the benefit of a subculture that is really far less than 1% of all motorcyclists, and an infinitesimal number of Wikipedia readers. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 17:36, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Naming conventions (companies) states that it's OK to include "Inc." in the bolded subject title in the article lede, so let's just do that, leaving us with the question of what name to give the article. Disambiguation requires that we can't re-use Women in the Wind. Is there another choice of suffix besides "(motorcycle club)" that is acceptable to the interested parties? While we're at it we should probably move the existing film article to Women in the Wind (film) and create a new dabpage at Women in the Wind. — Brianhe (talk) 17:55, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Yamaha RD500LC
Hi folks, not been in here for a while. I hope that either an admin or other editors could look at the recent edits to Yamaha RD500LC. They have been made by User:RZ's Unlimited, there is a commercial outfit in California using this name, there is a potential WP:COI problem. The edits were initially spelling changes to US (the article is written in British English per the banner on the talk page and MOS:RETAIN), NNPOV edits have now been added (words such as 'beautiful' etc) and instructions on how to de-restrict them (WP:NOTGUIDE). Don't wish to be seen to be in an edit war (two reverts have been ignored) or to be owning the article so I've come here for help, cheers. 06:14, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Looks like the account is inactive. If they come back, a case should be opened at WP:UAA for violation of the username policy. — Brianhe (talk) 16:04, 20 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, meant to drop by and say thanks. All quiet at the moment. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by)   16:49, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Know your enemy?
I remembered a name out of the blue this morning and looked up his article on Wikipedia. He was a high-ranking politician in West Germany and the EU, having been the Vice President of the European Parliament from 1976 to 1979 and the Federal Republic's Minister of Economics from 1984 to 1988.

However, that's not how I heard of Martin Bangemann!

How I heard of him was in bike magazines like Bike (magazine) and SuperBike (magazine), where he was an object of fear, loathing, and derision for proposing that motorcycles in the EU be limited in power to 100 bhp (or was it PS?). These being the kind of magazines to print Ogri and Fred Gassitt comics, the cartoons about "Ban-'em Man", "Bannerman", or "Bangerman" were not particularly restrained by good taste.

Does the Bangemann article fall within the scope of this project? Even if not, does anyone have old magazines with articles about Bangemann's proposed ban? The article on him does not mention it at all.

Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 12:06, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Honda Sport 90: Difference between revisions
Dennis Bratland RE:(sorry, this type of web page is a crowdsourced web traffic generator. they're unreliable and usually violate WP:COPYLINK.

I was wondering how you identified the website you removed in this edit → as a crowdsourced web traffic generator, and also wondering what a crowdsourced web traffic generator is. Does it steal information? How does it violate copyrights specifically? thanks --RickyDix (talk) 02:02, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
 * One of the first clues is that the lack of any author's name. Second clue is the lack of any sourcing for their data. They're either automatically scraping data from other websites, or getting it uploaded by their users. It isn't checked for errors. It's obvious the photos are mostly copyright violations: they're either scans from copyrighted books and magazines, or company publicity photos used without attribution. This page has text attributed to user BushA, but a quick search reveals it is a wholesale copy-paste, probably a Suzuki press release, or else somebody else's news blog. Not sure which. They've watermarked this photo with their own logo, but it's obviously a Suzuki publicity shot, appearing on many other websites. See . They don't create any original content at all, except crowdsourced user content, and they don't tell you where they're copying from.Some previous discussion of this are at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Motorcycling/Archive_6 and Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Motorcycling/BMW_Motorcycles. Sites like this are garbage. You can't tell which parts are reliable, and which parts are stolen, fabricated, or guessed from internet rumors. Consensus can change, if you'd like to discuss it further, but right now we don't link to or cite these websites. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 17:59, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Collaboration on Jugatsu Toi
The article on the author/filmmaker/rider Jūgatsu Toi seems underdeveloped considering his accomplishments. He has written several books and appeared on an NHK documentary about crossing Eurasia, which aren't even mentioned in the English article (though they are in the corresponding Japanese article). Maybe expanding this article is a project we could collaborate on? Here's a taste of what he's done: http://world.honda.com/RidingFive/ a 120,000 km, 5-continent journey via Honda NX650 between 1997 and 2009. I've started some notes for expansion at Jūgatsu Toi/workpage — Brianhe (talk) 19:18, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

New invite template created
Motorcycling invite --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:27, 23 November 2013 (UTC)


 * A couple of constructive comments:
 * The yellow chosen is rather too garish for me, could you tone it down a bit.
 * Would it not be better to transclude the "to do" list into the invitation instead of the mush more limited "article alerts"?
 * ww2censor (talk) 12:18, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I changed the color to FFFFAA, same as drop-down bars and added the collapsed to do list. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 18:11, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Wow that is a very subtle shade alteration. I had to switch back and forth between the old and new colour to notice any real difference. I suppose it will do. However, personally I would give the "To do" list more prominence, maybe in its own box across the bottom and get rid of the alerts altogether; it never gets many entries and a new member really won't know what to do with the 4 article alert links at the bottom and does not see much to do from there either. ww2censor (talk) 00:08, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I changed it again, FFFFAA -> FFC78F, which is apparantly a good complement to the userbox orange. According to http://colorschemedesigner.com/ I have no strong preference so anybody who can improve it, please change the color. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 02:31, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, I read the "to do" list and took off two requested articles that currently exist and one article that has two images from the image request list.


 * Furthermore, I saw that Indian Scout (motorcycle) is on the "Expand" list under high importance. This reminds me that I opened a discussion on merging Indian 101 Scout into "Indian Scout" in June.  No-one seems to have been interested.


 * Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 00:59, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
 * What is our philosophy on merging versus keeping separate articles for models by a manufacturer? I would have thought that the precedent was to keep model-specific articles when there's substantial content there, as there is at Indian 101 Scout? — Brianhe (talk) 01:40, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I've always been a proponent of merging articles about motorcycle models whenever two or more models are related in any dimension: same parts, or mostly the same parts, or totally different parts but same market niche. Or same spirit even. Or any case where the result is an article under about 50k characters that holds together and tells a coherent story. In most examples I know of, when you split up the models you lose the narrative. I'd like that to become our philosophy. With due regard for inevitable exceptions.I support both merging and expanding Indian Scout. Write a really comprehensive main article on the whole Scout story, and then maybe some day spawn some sub-articles. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 02:22, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Sons of Savages Motorcycle Club
This section is a placeholder for future discussion of Sons of Savages Motorcycle Club (currently in AfD, PROD, and/or Speedy Deletion process). Interested parties, please add comments below. — Brianhe (talk) 20:24, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

New navbox - biker culture
NorthAmerica1000's recent creation of Biker bar made me realize that we have a lot of articles with similar See Also sections, which indicates a need for a new navbox. As a trial (also trying out the new drafts namespace) I've created Draft:Biker culture navbox. What do project contributors think? — Brianhe (talk) 19:32, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Motorcycle hooliganism
My old unfinished article Motorcycle hooliganism might now have the solid sourcing it needs to be formed into a more coherent article, with the media action to the motorcycle stunters vs SUV incident in New York on September 30. Some articles briefly mentioned the culture of ethically diverse young men who take over freeways to stunt and race. I would expect that in the coming weeks, magazines and other media will write features that go into this culture more in depth. The essential distinction between the hooligans and Outlaw motorcycle clubs is that the old school one percenters' crimes are mostly drugs, prostitution and extortion -- that is, not directly connected to motorcycles. The hooligans crimes are almost entirely committed on motorcycles, and outside of motorcycle riding they have little group activity. That, plus race, urban vs suburban/rural, and Harley-Davidsons vs sport bikes.I still have almost no free time, so if anyone wants to grab my workpage and make something, please feel welcome. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:20, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm willing to give this a shot. It looks like the first part is ready to polish up and publish, probably will safe the loose references for some future work. — Brianhe (talk) 19:18, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
 * After some work, it's starting to look more like an article; think I'll take a break and see if anybody else has additional contributions. — Brianhe (talk) 21:27, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Hope you don't mind, I moved this to Draft:Motorcycle hooliganism; it simplifies the link syntax in the new biker culture navbox discussed below. — Brianhe (talk) 19:56, 29 December 2013 (UTC)