Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Motorsport/Archive 19

Calling the Joker
This edit drew my attention to something I was unaware of, & I'm dubious of its accuracy: namely, using capitals to describe the car's class. As a class, it's Funny Car, but the entrants in the class aren't Funny Cars, they're funny cars. Is this an MOS matter? Or what? I'd recommend changing it. TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura  13:09, 13 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Hello, the distintction is between the concept of funny car and the specific Funny Car regulations by NHRA, IHRA or whatever. For example, the Porsche 917 is a Le Mans sports prototype, but not a Le Mans Prototype. --NaBUru38 (talk) 14:19, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Proposed new parameters for Template:Infobox Grand Prix race report
It has been proposed that "previous/next event" links be added to Template:Infobox Grand Prix race report. Interested editors are invited to participate in the centralised discussion. DH85868993 (talk) 21:55, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Proposed new fields for Template:Infobox motorsport venue
I've started a discussion regarding whether it would be worthwhile adding "Outright lap record" fields to Template:Infobox motorsport venue. Interested editors are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Thanks. DH85868993 (talk) 12:43, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

RFC on the status of portals
Hello, there's a proposal to delete all Wikipedia portals. Please see the discussion here. --NaBUru38 (talk) 13:57, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Draft:Chelsea Angelo
Hello motorsport enthusiasts. I have been working on this draft about a young driver who had been getting some press, but she didn't do much last year. Recently, though, she has been in a race in Australia. I don't know much about these races, so I don't know if this is an important race or not. Is the article ready for mainspace, or should it remain in draft space at this time?&mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 14:19, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Category:24 Hours of Nürburgring drivers
--Falcadore (talk) 04:13, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Sergey Sirotkin
Corvus tristis (talk) 04:38, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Category:Racing drivers by competition
I think it is time to discuss subcategories of the Category:Racing drivers by competition. According to the WP:DNWAUC and WP:OVERCAT interpretation of the two users in discussion. The drivers shouldn't have any competition-specific category at all and have only Category:Racing drivers by nationality categorisation. Are our community fine with this? If yes, than we should nominate for deletion other competition-specific categories as well. Corvus tristis (talk) 09:53, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
 * No. I said the Nurburgring 24 Hour race is not career defining. If you are going to present my words to others, be precise or don't do it at all. --Falcadore (talk) 15:54, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I would argue that for example the Indianapolis 500 is very much career-defining. The merits of each category define whether is should exist in Wikipedia. --Falcadore (talk) 16:05, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
 * "A lot of those categories should be deleted as well for the same reason." This is enough precise? Category:24 Hours of Spa drivers for example have existed for four years, which reflects consensus that major endurance competition is enough career-defining. Corvus tristis (talk) 17:30, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
 * 24 Hours of Spa, 24 Hours of the Nürburgring, Indianapolis 500 and others are no racing categories though. Those are merely specific races within a certain category. The relevant categories per distinct racing category would be "IndyCar drivers by country" and "Endurance racing drivers by country". Anything beyond that is overkill.Tvx1 17:53, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I wonder if the current system would include drivers who only ever gained national attention at a single event, like Indy. (That they may've run other AAA events, but never became national champion, might make that less evidently relevant, but if the WP coverage is only about Indy...)  TREKphiler  any time you're ready, Uhura
 * A lot, not all. And four years just means it has escaped scrutiny. Come on Corvus, you've been around wikipedia for awhile. Notability of a category for Spa 24 hour drivers and Nurbrugring 24 Hour drivers has to be considered completely seperately of each other. There is no consensus for such a conclusion.
 * And TVX1, the Indianapolis 500 is far larger a race than the competition it sits in. The Indycar series was built specifically around the Indy 500 after its owners withdrew it from the previous Champ car series it was a part of and preceeded all its series by many decades. --Falcadore (talk) 05:28, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
 * The Spa and Nürburgring events have the same level of coverage and drivers. But is just another act of WP:WIKIHOUND from your side, so I'm not surprised of the nomination and the lack of nomination of other categories. Corvus tristis (talk) 07:10, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm well aware of the significance of the Indianapolis 500. However that doesn't make it a racing category. It's still an individual race within a certain motorsports category. Currently that racing category is IndyCar. Before that it was American Championship Car racing. And you are utterly wrong with your claim that the Indy500 precedes the creation of the series by decades. American Championship Car racing was created in 1902. The first national championship in American Championship Car racing was held in 1905. The first Indianapolis 500 race was held seven years later and itself was part of a full season of races within the aforementioned category. It's not needed to have a category for every single driver who ever made an unremarkable attempt to start in the Indianapolis 500. Many aren't notable for their unremarkable visit of Indianapolis, but for their many other achievements within motorsports. Beyond the winners there shouldn't really be a specific Indy 500 category.Tvx1 11:11, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
 * User:Tvx1: Fair point across the board. However unlike most series the Indy 500 does stand considerably higher than the races and championships around it. However I merely set that as an example of my opinion. Spa 24 Hour I'm on the fence about but Nurburgring definately does not.
 * From the start User:Corvus tristis you have taken this extraordinarily personally. To the point of finding categories I'd worked on to use in rebuttal. I've taken around a year or so off Wikipedia apart from small scale involvements until around the last month or so. I find allegations of Wikihounding well wide of the mark. I merely saw one category that represents fairly obvious WP:OVERCAT and you may note in the CFD discussion there has been near universal agreement with my original point. So please, set aside any thoughts of hounding or personal clashes. I don't remember you well enough from when I was posting more regularly 2-3 years ago to have any opinions of you. --Falcadore (talk) 07:17, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
 * If you are really so worked up about my nominating Nurburgring but not Spa, I'm happy to write up a CFD for Spa as well. --Falcadore (talk) 07:22, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

Category:Motorsport competitors from Yorkshire
FYI, Category:Motorsport competitors from Yorkshire has been nominated for deletion. Interested editors are welcome to contribute to the deletion discussion. Regards. DH85868993 (talk) 23:56, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

WikiProject collaboration notice from the Portals WikiProject
The reason I am contacting you is because there are one or more portals that fall under this subject, and the Portals WikiProject is currently undertaking a major drive to automate portals that may affect them.

Portals are being redesigned.

The new design features are being applied to existing portals.

At present, we are gearing up for a maintenance pass of portals in which the introduction section will be upgraded to no longer need a subpage. In place of static copied and pasted excerpts will be self-updating excerpts displayed through selective transclusion, using the template Transclude lead excerpt.

The discussion about this can be found here.

Maintainers of specific portals are encouraged to sign up as project members here, noting the portals they maintain, so that those portals are skipped by the maintenance pass. Currently, we are interested in upgrading neglected and abandoned portals. There will be opportunity for maintained portals to opt-in later, or the portal maintainers can handle upgrading (the portals they maintain) personally at any time.

Background
On April 8th, 2018, an RfC ("Request for comment") proposal was made to eliminate all portals and the portal namespace. On April 17th, the Portals WikiProject was rebooted to handle the revitalization of the portal system. On May 12th, the RfC was closed with the result to keep portals, by a margin of about 2 to 1 in favor of keeping portals.

There's an article in the current edition of the Signpost interviewing project members about the RfC and the Portals WikiProject.

Since the reboot, the Portals WikiProject has been busy building tools and components to upgrade portals.

So far, 84 editors have joined.

If you would like to keep abreast of what is happening with portals, see the newsletter archive.

If you have any questions about what is happening with portals or the Portals WikiProject, please post them on the WikiProject's talk page.

Thank you. &mdash; The Transhumanist  10:59, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

NSW Sports Sedans
The following sub-regional motor racing series article has been nominated for deletion. Articles for deletion/1998 NSW Sports Sedans. --Falcadore (talk) 02:14, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

DNF vs. Ret
Articles about sports car racing drivers use two abbreviations for the result when the driver was forced to retired from the races: DNF and Ret, i.e. Timo Bernhard. In the 24 Hours of Le Mans result table it is DNF, while in the FIA WEC it is Ret. May be we should unify this into something one? Corvus tristis (talk) 07:42, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
 * From the perspective of a race season's results table, to me DNF just doesn't look right. It may be something to do with it being all caps. RewF12012 (talk) 17:31, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
 * {| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center; font-size:90%"

! 1 ! 2 ! 3 ! 4 ! 5 Ret Ret Ret Ret Ret
 * style="background:#EFCFFF;"| BHR
 * style="background:#EFCFFF;"| BHR
 * style="background:#EFCFFF;"| HUN
 * style="background:#EFCFFF;"| SPA
 * style="background:#EFCFFF;"| MON
 * style="background:#EFCFFF;"| YMC
 * }
 * {| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center; font-size:90%"

! 1 ! 2 ! 3 ! 4 ! 5 DNF DNF DNF DNF DNF
 * style="background:#EFCFFF;"| BHR
 * style="background:#EFCFFF;"| BHR
 * style="background:#EFCFFF;"| HUN
 * style="background:#EFCFFF;"| SPA
 * style="background:#EFCFFF;"| MON
 * style="background:#EFCFFF;"| YMC
 * }

Honestly, I don't see why use of caps will be a problem. Moreover the use of DNF in line with DNS, DNPQ and DNQ will be more consistent. Corvus tristis (talk) 05:18, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
 * {| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center; font-size:90%"

! 1 ! 2 ! 3 ! 4 ! 5 DNS DSQ DNPQ DNQ DNF
 * style="background:#FFFFFF;"| BHR
 * style="background:#FFFFFF;"| BHR
 * style="background:#000000; color:white" | HUN
 * style="background-color:#ffcfcf"| SPA
 * style="background-color:#ffcfcf"| MON
 * style="background:#EFCFFF;"| YMC
 * }
 * Anyone has an argument against to change Ret to DNF? Corvus tristis (talk) 04:05, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes. DNF is ambiguous. Drivers can be classified despite not having finished.Tvx1 15:17, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
 * If they are a classified finisher they will have a finishing position which will be used instead of DNF. Simple. --Falcadore (talk) 03:06, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you mean the instances where you can finish a race and not be classified because you have not completed enough laps? That is DNC (Did not classify) rather than DNF. I personally prefer DNF to Ret as retired implies it is a willing action - a decision - where as a crash is not. --Falcadore (talk) 03:11, 13 June 2018 (UTC)


 * The results tables for the vast majority of other categories (e.g. F1, F2, BTCC, IndyCar, etc) use "Ret". If anything, I think the "DNF"s in the Le Mans tables should be changed to "Ret", rather than the other way around. DH85868993 (talk) 03:50, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Image request
Hi everyone,

I'm looking for an image of the "international" layout of The Bend Motorsport Park. Currently, thd only version I can find on Wikicommons is of the full GT circuit (which is currently in the circuit's article). The international circuit uses the western loop and the central section in Google Earth. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 01:27, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Proposed changes to Template:Infobox Grand Prix race report
Some changes have been proposed to Template:Infobox Grand Prix race report. Interested editors are welcome to contribute to the centralised discussion. DH85868993 (talk) 04:32, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Franco Scapini year of birth
Sources disagree over Franco Scapini's year of birth (1961 or 1962). Interested editors are invited to contribute to the discussion on the article talk page. DH85868993 (talk) 08:29, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Short Track Racing AFD
Articles for deletion/Short track motor racing. The discussion recently opened.  Royal broil  00:05, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

Discussion About Race Version of existing Road legal Vehicles
Hi there,
 * I would like to point out a thing here, There are Vehicular articles about a car like a road car Toyota Yaris OK? there are some vehicles who've entered in Motorsports with their race modified version like Camry NASCAR which is NASCAR version of Camry. However, I might point out a thing that There are Few Road vehicles having a section of Motorsports as well as some car article have it's separated race version article like Toyota Yaris and Toyota Yaris WRC, another example is Citroen DS3 and Citroen DS3 WRC, Okay it exist, but we (I mean me along with other Wikipedians) see that The Toyota Yaris WRC is a World Rally Car designed by Toyota Gazoo Racing WRT to compete in the World Rally Championship. The car is based on the Toyota Yaris, here it use a line that A Race car is based on it's road car, isn't necessary to mention the line to tell that a Race car is based on it's road version as we all know that Citroen DS3 enter's in WRC as article Citroen DS3 WRC Defines that It is based upon the Citroën DS3 road car which is inappropiate to say or define it. We all have a logic and we all know this is Citroen DS3. Now tell me if a car enters in motorsports in it's race version variant, will it lose it's naming or branding or not? will it lose it's actual design? no? then why we say for example Toyota Yaris WRC is based on road car Toyota Yaris or Citroen DS3 is based on Citroen DS3 road car. Totally nonsense and illogical. I must say that race car articles that uses real road car names must not contain these lines like A race car based on it's road version. I'm not performing any changes until I got any response for my message. Thank You. CK (talk) 23:47, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
 * We know that. But not everyone knows that. It is additionally not always true. Silouhette style of racing cars like NASCAR are not based on road cars. --Falcadore (talk) 02:44, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
 * In special cases, form branding and marketing reasons a car can have a certain name and be based on other road car. Or for example Abarth.Rpo.castro (talk) 08:16, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
 * as you said about Silouhette style of cars, Now tell me can IMSA Lexus RCF GT3 race car be included in Forza Motorsport 7? as Lexus is Toyota Marque, RCF GT3 has Super GT Body and Forza have licensing issues with Toyota. CK (talk) 18:01, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what a video game has to do with this, this is not a relevant place to discuss such things. However, a Lexus RC F GT3 is not a silhouette car, it is a Group GT3 car built on a production chassis and engine.  The359  ( Talk ) 18:23, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Since you asked me, I agree entirely with The359. --Falcadore (talk) 11:27, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Santino Ferrucci
Rather than being bold, I'm raising this for discussion here. Santino Ferrucci has been banned from driving for the next two meetings / four races. Under his complete Formula 2 results, I feel it appropriate that these races are annotated with BAN in white on a black background. That he has been sacked from his team does not, IMHO, override the fact that he is banned. Mjroots (talk) 08:26, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I'd say it has to just be left blank - he's banned for the next 4 races, not his next 4 races, and he's not entering those races. -mattbuck (Talk) 13:34, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
 * - do I understand you correctly? Are you saying that if "Foo Racing Team" offer Ferrucci a drive, then he will still be banned for the first four races after signing for them?
 * Reality is that his driving career is effectively over, isn't it? Mjroots (talk) 13:37, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
 * To be consistent with other articles - for example Romain Grosjean's ban in 2012 - they should be left blank. Boothy m (talk) 15:47, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Mattbuck is correct. If the driver wasn't even entered to the races, he hasn't any relation to the races. So the cells definitely should be left blank. Corvus tristis (talk) 02:54, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
 * If he's banned from even entering, why is he even on the page(s) in question?  TREKphiler  any time you're ready, Uhura  20:46, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * - I meant Ferrucci's article, not any other. Mjroots (talk) 06:06, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
 * As a general rule of thumb, you should not try to use tables to explain anything complex. Just the absolute basics. The tables record the race results. If Ferucci is banned from a race then there is no result. A ban is merely the reason for the lack of results. This is the difference between DNF and say ENG for engine failure, or ACC for accident or MPU for motive power unit or SAT for unexpected satellite falling from orbit. The tables do not record the method or mode of a retirement, merely that the driver did not finish. If there is notability attached to the retirement than it should be written about in sentences in the appropriate article. Tables don't tell stories, they compile statistics into a matrix. --Falcadore (talk) 09:05, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Predictions in the entry list
without valid reason adds uncertain information to 2019 IndyCar Series. I can somehow accept interpretation that "All" in the rounds section means that driver under contract to compete the whole season despite that is against WP:MOTOR convention, as in encyclopedia we should reflect facts. I.e. Robert Wickens, who was obligated to compete in the all races of the 2018 season didn't actually compete in all of them. So what it was? Yes, unfulfilled prediction. "TBA, 6-10 races" in the Harvey's line in looks completely non-encyclopedic to. My suggestion is to completely remove round column until the list of the participants for the first round will be announced. Corvus tristis (talk) 03:43, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree with you. I have removed that column I couple of times, but that user keep reinstating it. No matter how you turn it, it's speculation. It's not certain in any way that these drivers will enter all these races. For instance, Dario Franchitti in 2013, James Hinchcliffe in 2015 and Sebastien Bourdais in 2017 were all contracted to appear in all races, but Franchitti missed the last race (and in fact never raced again), Hinchcliffe only did five, and Bourdais missed a handful. This column thus really hasn't any value right now. I really can't see why we should deviate from standard WP:MOTOR practice.Tvx1 14:06, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I disagree that I have added uncertain information to 2019 IndyCar Series. The specific instance mentioned is of an entry that has been confirmed will enter 6 rounds, all named, and may enter up to 10 rounds, but no more, all named also. This is information gathered from the same reference used to justify its inclusion in the entries table, and is therefore just as certain as the inclusion of the entry in the table. The logic that is used to justify removing the rounds column in this fashion should conclude further that the entire entries table should be removed. Indeed, this logic further suggests that calendar tables should likewise be removed. If standard WP:MOTOR policy allows the entries table to exist at all prior to the first round of the season, then it is clear to me that WP:MOTOR policy violates WP:CRYSTALL. I have yet to even see an attempt to justiy this. A more complete discussion is available on Talk:2019 IndyCar Series. Quintinohthree (talk) 18:24, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
 * It seems you just don't understand Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. These other sections you claim should be removed are actually perfectly fine. We can verify that the listed drivers and races have a contract to appear in the 2019 season. However we can't no verify at this moment that they will enter specific rounds, let alone that they have been entered (thus it fails WP:Verify), and we equally cannot assure that they will enter these rounds (thus it fails WP:CRYSTALL). We thus simply cannot include that column at this time because it is add odds with some of Wikipedia's major policies. Now stop making such a drama because it's perfectly possible to have an article about the subject WITHOUT a rounds column in that table.Tvx1 19:51, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Quintinohthree, you should be aware that the preferred method of describing anything in wikipedia is text, not tables? The first resort of explaining complex information is absolutely not increasingly complicated tables. One of the worst things you can do with a table is have a "notes" column because you can not explain everything you wish to do so.
 * If it can not be explained easily and very simply then it does not belong in a table in the first place. And that is before you even get to verification. --Falcadore (talk) 09:11, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I would suggest, since the year, let slone the season, 2019 hasn't started yet, any results table is extraordinarily premature, unless you're visiting from the 24th Century.  Captain Braxton  we hear you  23:56, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
 * This discussion doesn't deal with results tables, but with a rounds column in a teams and drivers table.Tvx1 14:12, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

Using template:small without input parameters
We've added empty cells of small to driver's articles for their upcoming races of 2018 season. Recently have been removing them to clear Category:Pages using small with an empty input parameter. What's your view on this? I personally don't see a point to remove those, as they will get filled along the season. --Pelmeen10 (talk) 18:37, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
 * I also do not see the point in removing. As you say, they will get filled in when the results occur and removed if the driver doesn't compete in that particular race or we know they won't be competing. An example of this was when they were removed from Rob Collard's results when we knew he would not be competing at Rockingham and Knockhill due to injury. It also saves time when inputting the results as you don't have to copy and paste them for each race. The same can be said for the blank style=background colour, you can just input the colour code quickly or delete when applicable. RewF12012 (talk) 08:28, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

List of motorsports people by nickname
A discussion regarding the selection criteria for List of motorsports people by nickname is taking place at Talk:List of motorsports people by nickname. Your input is welcomed. Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 10:14, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Racing under the radar?
I just came across what looks like a glitch in the template. I looked at the "what links here" pages for Altered & Top Gas, & found neither on the other's page; Top Fuel & Top Alcohol, by contrast, are. While not really a crisis, I wonder if there's a coding or formatting error somewhere that might be causing other problems. (Health warning: yes, I created both pages; no, I don't care if this is reducing traffic on them.)  TREKphiler  any time you're ready, Uhura  13:58, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
 * For me, Altered (drag racing) shows up on the "What links here" for Top Gas and vice versa. Are they still not showing up for you? DH85868993 (talk) 09:57, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Still not on the list, no. It could be an issue with my browser, & TBH, IDK how big a problem it really is.  TREKphiler  any time you're ready, Uhura  13:00, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

Dating racers
In creating the Carl Olson page, I had access to the dates of each event, but chose not to include them all, because it seemed like overkill. Is it? TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura  17:21, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
 * I think so. I inspected a small random sample of other articles in Category:Dragster drivers and none of them seemed to include dates. DH85868993 (talk) 10:26, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Thx. That saves me having to fix it. :D  TREKphiler  any time you're ready, Uhura  18:32, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

Tuesday the Eliminator
I've come across a conflict between sources here I can't resolve. I've got a presumably reliable ref saying one thing, another page (also at NHRA.com) saying something else, & a third page (not, IMO, tops in completeness) mentioning neither contestant. Has anybody got better sources that can clear this up? If so... I'm bringing it here in hope of attracting more possible sources than the page itself (which appears to be getting little traffic). Luke La Duke play the news, skip the blues  14:29, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

Year without the cat?
I notice the Year in Motorsports pages only include annual events not part of a series. So where does someone find annual events that are, exactly? TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura  09:14, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Tom Pryce nationality
There is a discussion concerning Tom Pryce, a featured article associated with this project, taking place at Talk:Tom Pryce for those interested. -- DeFacto (talk). 17:03, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

An Rfc at WP:Formula One concerning this topic, has commenced. GoodDay (talk) 19:26, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

British racers
''The following section is transcluded from WT:F1 because the RFC applies to motorsport in general. Please leave any comments there'' — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tvx1 (talk • contribs) 16:15, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

Inclusion of racing cars in Template:Lotus
I've started a discussion regarding the continued inclusion of racing cars in Template:Lotus. Interested editors are welcome to contribute to the discussion. (I've advertised the discussion here because I wasn't sure how may people are watching the template). DH85868993 (talk) 21:02, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Don't call me Mello Yello
Is there a way to categorize dedicated drag racing engines, like the Donovan hemi? I used Category:Top Fuel & Category:Racing engines, & got redlinks... TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura  03:35, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Making Leclerc's entry the main "Charles Leclerc" article
I think it is time to make this article the automatic redirect for Charles Leclerc, rather than the French general. This is since Leclerc now is going to be an official Scuderia Ferrari driver, with the stature of that team making him one of the most famous racecar drivers, and therefore having a significant contemporary WP:Notability. This would render him the most likely search target for anyone looking for the name "Charles Leclerc". I think the solution is to make this page the main page for "Charles Leclerc", moving the general to "Charles Leclerc (general)" and have a disambiguition link to the general on this page. I hope there are no issues with it, and if that is the case I can make the switch within 48 hours.

Lommaren (talk) 13:05, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

NASCAR Winston Cup Series Era
Hi WikiProject MOTOR members. Would one of you mind taking a look at NASCAR Winston Cup Series Era and assessing it? It was created by a university student as part of a Wiki Ed assisted class assignment. It looks pretty good formatting wise, etc. but I'm not really familiar with NASCAR so can say how it is content wise (i.e., whether this stuff is already sufficiently covered in other articles so a stand-alone for it is not needed). It's in the mainspace now so that makes it fair game for anyone to edit, but hopefully you'll keep in mind that it is part of an ongoing class assignment; in other words, if it needs tons or improvement or needs to go, then perhaps WP:USERFY would be a better option than complete revision/deletion so as to allow the student to continue to try and improve it, and be graded for their work. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:42, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Argentine motorsport
I think, as an Argentine follower of national categories, this has very little coverage in English Wikipedia. For example, the Campeonato Argentino de Turismo Nacional, one of the most important in the country and with great pilots and brands, has no page, the Argentine multi-champion and future Daytona driver Agustín Canapino has a 30-word page, and the article Top Race V6 is not updated in years. I do not handle English well, and I dedicate almost all my time to Wikipedia in Spanish, but I hope this changes. Thanks. --Adriel 00 (talk) 18:20, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

The Vandalism issue
Dear all,

Recently motorsport season articles are under attack of vandalism from unregistered IP addresses. One of the most prominent cases of vandalism I've seen are on the 2019 World Touring Car Cup and 2019 Deutsche Tourenwagen Masters articles where constantly IP-vandals put fictional entries with zero legitimacy.

I think as part of WikiProject Motorsport and its child projects like WikiProject TCR Series need to take firm stand against vandalism and restrict all motorsport related articles to only verified users. Ivaneurope (talk) 11:05, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't know in how far we can have all motorsport articles semi-protected. I don't know if Wikipedia allows such actions. What you can most certainly do is to go to WP:RPP and request semi-protection of the specific articles you have mentioned.Tvx1 15:47, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I fundamentally oppose any such restriction on IP users per WP:IPHUMAN - IP users have exactly the same rights as registered users to participate in the writing of Wikipedia. And there are alternatives for controlling vandalism, without resorting to semi-protection, which discriminates against constructive IP users. -- DeFacto (talk). 20:18, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
 * But here we have constant vandalism by IP users that put unsourced fictional material like Cadillac entering DTM or Mazda in WTCR without any relevant sources. This needs to be controlled and constantly undoing and cleaning up vandalism is not the right direction for me. A more tight control needs to be implemented. Ivaneurope (talk) 21:49, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
 * is it from a wide range of IP addresses and is it actually vandalism, or is it content disagreements and do IP users also make constructive edits? -- DeFacto (talk). 22:06, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I have been involved in warning and attempting to get this user block, but it is a different IP every time, all from an Indonesian ISP. It is clear vandalism, adding fictitious fantasies to this articles (F1 articles have suffered this similar vandalism for many years now) that are not even remotely constructive.  I can say they hit the DTM article consistently with every account, so it might be best to get that one semi-protected.  The rest, I think we just need to keep our eyes on.  The359  ( Talk ) 22:12, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
 * There is always the option to request a range block if the exact IP address changes too frequently.Tvx1 00:37, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

Ridler me this
Is the George Poteet who won the '96 Ridler the same one who ran 426 mph in Speed Demon? TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura  08:58, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

Gimme a "Huh?"
Looking through some back contribs, I came across this, & it made me think. Is there a way to have highlighting of things that are fact-tagged, to avoid the situation at play there? IMO, it would also allow readers to see exactly what is considered dubious. Can the software gurus whip up something? TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura  05:54, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
 * There are already templates to do this, highlighting a span of text. Try Citation needed span Andy Dingley (talk) 12:28, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I've never seen that before. It might be just the thing.  TREKphiler  any time you're ready, Uhura  08:59, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

The other McLaren
This has always been a bit of a glaring omission from Wikipedia, but it is difficult to find information when the McLaren we all know overwhelms data hunting. I'm talking about McLaren Engines AKA Team McLaren AKA McLaren North America AKA McLaren Performance Technologies AKA McLaren Engineering, the current company based in Michigan but still founded by Bruce McLaren and not in any way associated with McLaren anymore. I'm specifically looking for when this company separated from McLaren. Specifically, I assume the change occurred when Ron Dennis took over McLaren. Further, should McLaren's North American successes be credited to McLaren North America or what exactly was the involvement of the two companies in Can-Am and the Indianapolis 500? I ask because advertising for cars such as the McLaren Mustang M81 featured McLaren Indy Cars of the same time period. The359 ( Talk ) 23:11, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

Circuit infobox template alteration
I have begun a discussion over at Template talk:Infobox motorsport venue regarding an alteration to the template. Constructive input would be appreciated. Holdenman05 (talk) 09:20, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

F-E and F-1
With the changes for the 2018-2109 Formula-E season, the addition of the halo and the fenders, would this no longer be open-cockpit-open-wheel racing? But now closed cockpit enclosed wheel racing? The open tire area is about the same as a prototype sportscar now, and the halo cage is like other cockpit racers with cages. If this is the case, we should state in the article about the change in the nature of the cars.

Similarly, since last year, the addition of the halo to Formula 1 seems to make it a closed cockpit racer.

-- 67.70.34.69 (talk) 03:11, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
 * No, and no. The halo does not close the cockpit, and the fenders do not fully enclose the wheels.  Sportscars are still vastly different.  The359  ( Talk ) 04:52, 7 January 2019 (UTC)


 * The Sky F1 commentators have spent the last two seasons lamenting the end of open cockpits in F1... And even in prototypes the wheels are not completely enclosed, since you can see them from the side, and some prototypes have openings at the front like the fendered F-E's on both sides, and raised tails like the F-E's exposing tread.
 * Does the cage (roofless without full windscreens or nets/mesh) added to say a 'midget' (an open wheeled race car type), not make it an enclosed cockpit then? Cageless ones are clearly open cockpit (like a 50's F1 car).
 * -- 67.70.34.69 (talk) 04:54, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Please take some time to look at some pictures of F1 cars. The Halo is just a T-shape bar set in front of the cockpit and not on top of it. The cockpits are still very open on top and on the sides. Likewise there is an immense difference between wheels being just visible from the side and a fender hiding the front of the front wheels and leaving their rears and the suspension still completely open.Tvx1 17:32, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

Martin Lee gallery
The gallery of Martin Lee (https://www.flickr.com/photos/kartingnord/) has old DTM and BTCC photos for Wikimedia Commons. I hope it serves you. --Adriel 00 (talk) 18:55, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

RAC Tourist Trophy Category
Hello. I recently added all (or most) of the races with pages to Category:RAC Tourist Trophy, but for some reason on the category page has all bar 1987 RAC Tourist Trophy are listed in date order, but the 1987 race is listed as starting with the letter R. No idea why?! A7V2 (talk) 04:36, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
 * The Defaultsort template automatically set the parameter to "RAC Tourist Trophy" on that article. It's been fixed.  The359  ( Talk ) 05:04, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I looked at the edit you made to 1987 RAC Tourist Trophy, no way I was ever going to figure that out myself, good thing I asked! A7V2 (talk) 09:50, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

Stadium Super Trucks/Formula Off-Road name
I've been editing a bunch of Speed Energy Formula Off-Road articles lately when I noticed something strange in the series' website's standings pages. If you go to the 2013 standings, it has the "Stadium Super Trucks" logo, and if you go to the 2014 standings, the logo is "Speed Energy Formula Off-Road presented by Traxxas". The series was renamed to Formula Off-Road in 2014, so it makes sense for the logo to change (the 2015 standings also uses Formula Off-Road). However, if you go to the 2016 standings, the logo is once again replaced by "Stadium Super Trucks (presented by Traxxas)", with the Traxxas branding gone in the 2017 and 2018 standings so it just says "Speed Energy Stadium Super Trucks".

After looking through the series' news pages, articles from 2015 throws around "Formula Off-Road" very liberally, yet the name is gone in recent articles in favor of "Stadium SUPER Trucks".

It might be reasonable to just move the season articles from 2016 and beyond (like 2016 Speed Energy Formula Off-Road season to 2016 Stadium Super Trucks season) and the parent article back to its original name, but considering how widespread the Formula Off-Road name has been used on Wikipedia, I figured it'd be best to ask for some more input. Zappa<b style="color: #FFD700;">⚡</b><b style="color: red;">Mati</b> 03:06, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
 * After doing some more checking, there was no announcement that the series name was reverted back to Stadium Super Trucks in 2016 either. Official series media uses "Stadium Super Trucks", and if we do the Google Hit Test, "Stadium Super Trucks" produces far more results than "Speed Energy Formula Off-Road" (emphasis on the sponsor to avoid confusion with Formula Off Road). While I can just move the pages (lack of redirects make it easier to do so without sysop assistance), the lack of a formal announcement (or anything outside of what is implied) might make it hard to explain without veering into WP:OR territory.  NFL  is  Awesome   (ZappaOMati) 17:00, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

W Series driver table
WP:MOTOR states that driver tables usually only cover drivers who have raced or participated in events usually. However, considering the unusual qualifying based system employed by the W Series, I feel that it is important to mention the women who were involved in the opening round. I mean, tennis tournaments don't exclude those who were knocked out in the first round, right? Teams trying to qualify for the FIFA World Cup get a mention (usually in a separate article but this isn't noteworthy enough for one), why not here?

I have a two propositions.

The first is the following. This was the table in the article before Corvus put a standard one in and would cover the progress of the drivers through the system, with a proper table below it for teams and drivers (in effect for the events they participated in, however if there are no driver swaps it could potentially be removed).

The second would be one table for just the Evaluated and Tested drivers, with another placed below it for the race drivers. Here is a basic example (no drivers are included in the test section as it hasn't been completed yet):

The other alternative is that we leave it as is with no mention of the drivers who attempted to qualify for the championship - however, as most series/events with qualifying systems include those in their articles or related ones (which is not an option here), I don't feel that we should remove the qualifying aspect considering how important it will be in deciding the grid.

Holdenman05 (talk) 08:23, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Was it actually an "opening round/qualifying" or just testing? Why we don't have any racing/qualifying results for this then? If you look at any other racing series, not all of the drivers who did the testing become actual drivers for the season. Analogy with FIFA World Cup or tennis tournaments does not seem to be correct, as they do not have testing like in motorsport. Corvus tristis (talk) 09:39, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Why is this in a giant bingo board and not a list? The359  ( Talk ) 16:10, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Qualifying occurs at race meetings. This is not qualifying. It is testing. Wikipedia does not cover testing because it has no bearing on the championship itself. That should be easily understood. --Falcadore (talk) 01:31, 30 January 2019 (UTC)


 * You all seem to be missing the point. This isn't testing, this is qualifying. No motorsport series past or present has had a pre-season qualification system before. Testing would be if the 18 qualified drivers did a pre-season day, but there's no mention of that anywhere in the program. The girls who have not advanced beyond the Wachauring event have effectively failed to Pre-Qualify for the season, and we already count drivers who fail to Pre-Qualify in race meetings. Holdenman05 (talk) 07:05, 30 January 2019 (UTC)


 * If it is "qualifying". Why Charlotte Poynting, who finished equal fifth out of 54 in the "race of champions" was not qualified? Where is the results of it? And why is important to have in the article the table with all drivers who were "not qualified" if they would not be a part of the 2019 W Series? One-two sentences with the references will be quite enough to describe the shoot-out process. Corvus tristis (talk) 09:23, 30 January 2019 (UTC)


 * The supposed 'Race of Champions' was not the only form of pre-qualifying, as is explained here. We don't have results yet, and may very well never get them judging by how close the series are keeping their cards (you can always contact the series and ask for results if you want them that badly). Showing their attempt to qualify is just as important as showing the drivers who did make it because it gives us background to the season:
 * Tthe women who qualified are competing in this series because they beat this other group of women to the position, not by gaining contracts with teams but by doing better than the rest of this selection. (insert source of entered drivers in pre-qualifying/evaluation) This is the process they went through. (insert source of selection process here)
 * [insert table]
 * NB - This is not what is literally required to be written, but you get the idea.
 * They did so in the same way that F1 drivers attempted to qualify for races in the early 1990s and national football teams attempt to qualify for World/Continental Cups; not through contract negotiation or a pre-season test but through a part of the championship season that's just as important as actually making the first race. Holdenman05 (talk) 11:15, 30 January 2019 (UTC)


 * I do not want them "that badly", I just need any evidence of notability of the failed applicants. Because Poynting's case clearly shows that "Race of champions" does not have any affect on the selection process. Corvus tristis (talk) 13:39, 30 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Well, no. If you read the source I provided you'd understand that the other modules are of equal importance to the one Poynting is referring to. In this instance, qualifying is not just a case of getting a car round a track as fast as possible. Find a reference that says something like "All 61 women entered the series, but 33 failed to pre-qualify because their aggregate performance over the modules wasn't good enough", because that's the point of this part of the season. Holdenman05 (talk) 20:32, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

I'll take your silence as affirmation. So now we've sorted that "Yes: the DNPQs should appear in the article", my next question is - which table option do we go for? Holdenman05 (talk) 20:50, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Charlie Schwerkolt Racing
A vandal has moved this page without reaching consensus on an issue that has been previously discussed and also did not reach consensus. Posting here as WP:AUSMOTOR sees very little traffic. 2001:8003:3C97:8200:3473:18D:6A40:DB90 (talk) 03:57, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Category:Motorsports Hall of Fame of America inductees up for deletion
See Motorsports Hall of Fame of America. <b style="color:#060">7&amp;6=thirteen</b> (<b style="color:#000">☎</b>) 17:46, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Category Discussion <b style="color:#060">7&amp;6=thirteen</b> (<b style="color:#000">☎</b>) 17:48, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Ill-informed admin
Reporting to the project for making ill-informed changes to drivers, particularly those in 2019 W Series. Namely changes regarding removing flags from the infobox (as is seen at Stoffel Vandoorne, Robin Frijns, Jamie Whincup, Ryan Hunter-Reay, Norbert Michelisz, etc.) and removing linked content for personal reasons.

Tagging some active editors as this talk page can be a little quiet sometimes. Holdenman05 (talk) 22:52, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
 * This is not the first time this admin has been pushing their personal agenda with regards to flags. I've seen them do to a F1 article, which resulted in this and this discussion in favor of the flagicons.Tvx1 14:50, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Categories by nationality
Why only Formula One and IndyCar has their categories by nationality (Category:Brazilian Formula One drivers, Category:Brazilian IndyCar Series drivers)? Is it allowed to make same categories for other series? Eurohunter (talk) 08:48, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
 * , I have no objections for you to do this to other series so long as they are limited to only the most important racing series and the drivers aren't predominatly from one nation. ie don't make one for F2 (not a major racing series) or NASCAR (99% Americans). Really these sorts of categories should be kept for only the biggest and most widly known racing series. I would probably only add nation specific categories for world edurance championship and mabye World rally championship and leave it at that. SSSB (talk) 10:19, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

Yuji Ide 1999
In his article, in Complete Super GT results gives as runner-up of All Japan GT Championship GT300, but in Racing record it does not say anything of that year. Please fix that error. Thanks. --Adriel 00 (talk) 03:50, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Actually, you can do it yourself. That's the beauty of Wikipedia.Tvx1 10:57, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Totals rows in driver career summary tables
An editor has added "Totals" rows to Charles_Leclerc and Lance_Stroll. Do we think these are helpful/useful? My concern is that the numbers may be incorrect/misleading if the career summary table doesn't list a driver's complete career. Thoughts? DH85868993 (talk) 22:15, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
 * They're out of line. Total points from totally different series with their own unique point structure?  Completely useless.  The359  ( Talk ) 00:14, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Not relevant at all. Stats from different series have nothing to do with each other. This would only be usefull if you add up stats from the same World Championship/Series like this. As far as I know we don't have this kind of situation in car racing. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 22:09, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
 * first we have got something like that in the World Endurance Championship. However I am not concerned by nor 's comment but the fact that these results tables never show a drivers complete career, only their most notable seasons/participations. Therefore these rows are simply incorrect and if we correct them it  would mean adding rows from series that are completely unnotable. SSSB (talk) 07:30, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Both "Totals" rows have now been removed. DH85868993 (talk) 21:55, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

"WDC" and "TD"

 * Note: at the time this discussion was started, the abbreviation "WDC" in the heading of George Russell's F1 results table did not have a tooltip. A tooltop has since been added. DH85868993 (talk) 22:46, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

Interested in a driver I've not heard of, I looked at George_Russell_(racing_driver). His race by race record includes unexplained abbreviations that I couldn't understand. As well as the ones I mention in the header, there are others from other seasons. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:38, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
 * "TD" stands for "(Friday) Test Driver" - this is explained in the table key which is linked just above the table; "WDC" stands for "World Drivers' Championship (position)" - this could probably use a tooltip in the column heading (in fact the WP:F1 standard table format says there should be one). DH85868993 (talk) 14:57, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
 * The key just says "(Races in bold indicate pole position; races in italics indicate fastest lap)" Doesn't mention these abbreviations. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 21:05, 23 June 2019 (UTC)


 * that's because  is wikilinled to a wider more detailed key on a subpage where all the abbreviations are listed. I've been thinking for some time now that this design needs to be revisited for this very reason. It was also confusing for me at one point but I keep forgetting to chase it up. SSSB (talk) 21:17, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see. Yes, that is confusing. You can't see the key and the table at the same time and "WDC" isn't there anyway. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 21:18, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
 * We had discussions back in 2007 and 2009 regarding the idea of transcluding the key (i.e. so it could be seen at the same time as the table) rather than linking it, but consensus was never reached. DH85868993 (talk) 21:45, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Would transcluding the key in a collapsible format (and collapsed by default) be an option.Tvx1 11:04, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
 * We got a fair way down that path in the 2007 discussion but never reached final agreement on the formatting. The idea was raised again in the 2009 discussion but one editor pointed out that MOS:COLLAPSE states that "Collapsible templates should not conceal article content by default upon page loading". DH85868993 (talk) 13:05, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I think it's time to sort it out. If you'd like input from someone who self-evidently has interest but no expertise in the topic, drop me a line. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:11, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't think MOS:COLLAPSE applies here as we aren't concealing article content but rather the key which helps editors interpret article content which is different. The content we plan on concealing isnt currently in the article at all. I therefore have to agree with 's proposal. SSSB (talk) 19:20, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Should we seek opinion/clarification at WT:MOS? I'm in favour of the collapsible key, but I'm keen to avoid a situation where we update thousands of articles, only for the changes to later be reverted. DH85868993 (talk) 22:52, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Definitly. We should probably put in a RfC here and then advertise the RfC at WT:MOS. SSSB (talk) 14:10, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Does "DC" or other "xC" need explanations also? None of the motorsport articles explain those actually. Pelmeen10 (talk) 16:33, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
 * They probably do (ugh, that's going to be a big job). DH85868993 (talk) 22:13, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Couldn't we just include them in the key? SSSB (talk) 14:11, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Kenelm Lee Guinness
Hello, I've posed a question on Talk:Kenelm Lee Guinness regarding his country of birth and nationality, and would appreciate your input, thanks. A7V2 (talk) 07:42, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

Licenced vs. actual nationality
In recent times, drivers have been placed into entry lists and results using 'licenced nationality' (for example here with drivers such as Armstrong listed as Italian and not New Zealander, and Sato represented as Sammarinese and not Japanese) as they are sourced from entry lists and the like. As this is not 'actual nationality' (i.e. Armstrong is not an Italian citizen), such representation goes against Wikipedia's factual accuracy policy, particularly considering that 'actual nationality' for drivers is easily sourced and is often provided in the Driver Database link in the external links section of their personal pages.

I would like to gain consensus on a future solution, however this is my perspective – a driver should be listed as being from a nation of which they are a citizen, regardless of the entry list source. The current end-of-page notes regarding nationality can be flipped, stating that "X is a *insert nation* citizen however is displayed as *licence nationality* in the official entry list". If a driver is a dual citizen (such as Sebastián Fernández or Keyvan Andres) and is licenced to one of those nations, then as it is both 'actual' and 'licenced' simultaneously therefore the 'licenced nationality' should be used. If a dual citizen is licenced to a nation not of their citizenship then the nationality to which they are credibly externally sourced (e.g. if Andres is labelled Iranian by Motorsport.com) should be used. Holdenman05 (talk) 02:09, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I completely agree per the above. SSSB (talk) 07:27, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
 * We need some more editors involved to get this discussion off the ground. Holdenman05 (talk) 09:43, 30 June 2019 (UTC)


 * I think it has to be one rule applied consistently, and I think the licence nationality taking priority over birth nationality is the right way to go about it. First of all, we use the entry lists as sources. Mahaveer Raghunathan is Indian by birth, but there is nothing in the sources that says he is Indian. We therefore cannot call him an Indian driver.


 * We have also had this problem outside driver articles. It has particularly come up with Red Bull Racing and people who try to argue that the team is not Austrian, but rather British because the team is based in Britain, employs mostly Brits, and the car is built in Britain. It's little more than a thinly-veiled attempt to claim Red Bull's success for Britain&mdash;and, full disclosure, the double standards expected by British fans pretty much drove me away from Formula 1 in recent years (they gave Ticktum a free pass over something they crucified Vettel for) so I freely admit bias here&mdash;but I'm worried that if we start accepting birth nationality over licence nationality, it could open the door to some pretty serious issues with misrepresenting things.


 * Also going to tag @ here because he's the junior formulae guru. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 10:22, 30 June 2019 (UTC)


 * I disagree with the proposal here. We have always used flags to denote nationalities they represent. That's the only way MOS actually endorsed the use of flags in sports article. Also note that in FIA world championships drivers have to use a nationality they have the citizenship of. Drivers with multiple citizenships, like Grosjean, Verstappen or Stroll pick which one they want to represent. In the case of Marino Sato mentioned above, if he were to win a F3 race that would be celebrated with the playing of the Sammarinese national anthem, not the Japanese one. Hence why we use the flag of Japan. Given priority to nationalities they don't represent would just create unnecessary confusion.Tvx1 10:31, 30 June 2019 (UTC)


 * According to Article 9.5, Point 2 of the FIA International Sporting Code all drivers competing in FIA World Championships such as Formula One, WRC, WEC etc. are displayed by their nationality of their passport in all official documents, publications and prize-giving ceremonies irrespective of which ASN the driver's license was isseued. For instance a driver, competing in WEC, who has Russian passport, but races under license from DMSB – the German ASN – but doesn't have German passport, will always have the Russian flag flown and the Russian anthem played since he's Russian by legal documents. To race under German flag he has to obtain German passport as well. This is not limited to drivers, but also teams – we at TCR Series WikiProject stumbled across a similar issue with JSB Compétition, a French registered team in the TCR Europe Series and TCR Benelux Series. To be eligible for TCR Benelux the competitor need to be from either Belgium, Netherlands or Luxembourg, or driving for a team based in one of the three countries. JSB and its drivers by extension happen to be eligible by virtue of the team also having Belgian license. But we at WP:TCR we're listing the team as French since in the TCR Europe website is listed as such. I am not sure how to procede with the issue, but IMO all drivers on Wikipedia articles should be listed with their passport nationality and have a footnote should they race under different license.Ivaneurope (talk) 10:33, 30 June 2019 (UTC)


 * If you look at Raghunathan's (I've fixed the link for you btw) page, as with most drivers, you'll see that there is a link to 'Driver Database'. DriverDB is the most accurate (but not always – for example Lyubov Ozeretskovskaya of Formula 4 South East Asia is entered as Lyubov Ozeretkovskaya, missing an 's' in the surname) source of information for a drivers' personal statistics and results, and the vast majority of drivers have a nationality - 'actual nationality' - attached. If we lack a source, you can always go back to the DriverDB page to accurately source 'actual nationality'. Teams are to remain listed as 'licence nationality'; I don't see the issue personally – particularly if we provide a source or even a footnote next to the team name it'll be fine - for the Red Bull example, the note would say that it's an Austrian licenced team based in Britain.
 * You've got the argument the wrong way around. We currently display Sato as Sammarinese (please read the entry list). I'm asking that we display him as Japanese as that is his nation of citizenship, whereas he is licenced to San Marino. Same as Doornbos in 2005 - he's Dutch but listed as Monégasque.
 * Not really relevant to the discussion, but you have to question why Raghunathan appears as Dutch in the F2 graphics if that's the FIA's stance. Holdenman05 (talk) 11:12, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

@ &mdash; I think @ is referring to individual driver articles whereas I am referring to championship articles. I see no problem with a discrepancy between the two where Ragunathan's article says he is Indian, but the championship article says he respresented the Netherlands.

To be honest, I do dislike the use of flags in championship articles because Ragunathan is not really representing a nation. The Netherlands gets no benefit from his having a Dutch licence the way they would if he was competing in A1GP. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 12:25, 30 June 2019 (UTC)


 * First of all, I would disagree that showing flag of the license breaks in any way factual accuracy policy. The sport articles were newer based on our general knowledge about athlete's nationality. It was always based on the information from sport federations and organisers, i.e. 1992 Summer Olympics with Independent Olympic Participants and Unified Team. Secondly, I honestly do not understand why there is so much trust in the Driver Database which information is filled by almost the same concept as Wikipedia (any info could be added by anyone), especially in comparison to official entry lists. P.S. I support Mclarenfan17 concerns about opening Pandora's box of biased interpretation. P.S.S. To illustrate accuracy of the Tvx's point, i advise Holdenman05 and SSSB to listen carefully what happened at podium after Armstrong's win. Yes, it is an Italian national anthem. Corvus tristis (talk) 12:38, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

@ – this stance only applies to World Championships such as Formula One, WRC, WEC, WRX, WTCR (maybe) etc.. Since the FIA Formula 2 Championship is de facto not "world championship", thus perhaps allowing drivers to choose under which flag to appear. Thus Raghunathan races under Dutch flag despite being Indian and Patricio O'Ward races under US flag despite racing under Mexican flag in the Indycar Series. Also I find it baffingly that Doornbos is listed as Monegasque, despite in season reviews on the Formula One site is listed as Dutch And to be fair I think the FIA should only allow drivers to race for certain nation if they have passport there. If thet Armstrong has Italian passport and not merely a license issued by ACI, that's fine. But if not, I dont think he has legal right to race under Italian flag. But that's just my oppinion.Ivaneurope (talk) 14:00, 30 June 2019 (UTC)


 * With regards to 's stance, in my opinion their view on what constitutes "representing a nation/nationality" is too restricted. Simply put, the organizers and governing bodies of these sports quite patently recognize them as representing a nationality by celebrating their wins with the raising the flag of the nationality they are registered with an by playing the relevant national anthem for the race winner. The above example of Armstrong's win celebrated by the playing of the Italian national anthem is self-explanatory. We just reflect these facts on Wikipedia. I respect that some people think it's wrong to list racing drivers in season and race articles with a nationality they possibly don't have the citizenship of, but Wikipedia is not the place to right great wrongs. These drivers simply compete under the nationality we list them with in these articles. Besides these drivers like Ragunathan, O'Ward, Sato or Armstrong must have had a good reason to register and compete under the nationality they have. All someone like Armstrong had to do to have the New Zealand anthem played when he wins a race, was to obtain a racing license stating "New Zealander" in the nationality field. As for Doornbos, he actually competed in the a FIA World Championship under the Monegasque nationality as evidenced by contemporary entry lists and on-screen graphics. Given that we're dealing with a FIA World Championship (which makes the case not comparable to the other mentioned drivers) there, per the sporting regulations it means that Doornbos actually must have held Monegasque nationality. In summary, season and race articles should use the nationalities that the drivers compete under. Of course, the drivers' own biographies can use prose to explain the situation fully. For instance, Marcus Armstrong's article could open with a sentence like "Marcus Armstrong is a New Zealand racing driver who represents Italy." or "Marcus Armstrong is a New Zealand racing driver who competes under the Italian flag."Tvx1 15:40, 30 June 2019 (UTC)


 * Firstly, think about the statement 'Marcus Armstrong is Italian', because that's basically what the licence is saying. I'm not denying he used the licence or had the Italian anthem played, but no matter how you cut it Marcus Armstrong is not an Italian, and that is fact. He does not hold Italian citizenship nor an Italian passport, therefore to call him Italian (i.e. put the Italian flag next to him) is not fact. Furthermore, look at Giorgio Carrara – he has to compete under a Swiss licence due to visa restrictions, that doesn't make him any less Argentine or in any way Swiss.
 * Secondly, the claim that DriverDB is in any way the same as Wikipedia is false. DDB is a Swedish company that only people who work for the company can edit. None of us here work for Wikipedia, we're all unpaid volunteers. DDB has also been a trusted source for a long time, and if you have any issues I suggest you get in touch with them directly andreas@driverdb.com.
 * Thirdly, we need to look at the bigger picture. Wikipedia is a source for the average fan. How are they going to look at Sato with a Japanese flag on one article and a Sammarinese flag on another and make any sense of it? Frankly, most will just change it to fit what they see as correct (i.e. what's on the driver page) regardless of the existing note.
 * Fourthly, on the team front, team nationality can be affected by a range of factors – where the team is located, who owns the team, who sponsors the team, etc. Think 🇬🇧 Virgin Racing (2010) and 🇷🇺 Marussia Virgin Racing (2011). Driver nationality isn't affected by where they live or who they are sponsored by – Mark Webber has lived in the UK for 20 years and he doesn't hold British citizenship. The only argument I forsee is a situation similar to Bruno Banani (luger), but Bruno Banani (the company) let him keep his Tongan nationality.
 * Fifthly, I'm not going to pretend I know everything about the CIS but the time difference between the fall of the Soviet Union and the '92 Games certainly wouldn't have been enough to set up 15 international-standard NOCs, therefore the IOC considered the athletes stateless and gave them their own flag – which is in no way different to the Independent Olympic Athletes team. The protocol for athletics and motorsport is not the same as their licencing systems are not the same. If Catalonia were to become independent tomorrow would Álex Palou be recognised as Catalan in the next Super Formula race? Almost certainly not, however that doesn't change the fact that he's still a citizen of the new Catalan state. This brings us back to the original point about actual nationality – if he's a citizen of the new Catalan state, therefore he should appear as Catalan because to state otherwise is false.
 * Similarly, unlike in the Olympics or FIFA, the FIA has never banned an active ASN – of which there are only 140 with recognised motorsport arms. This creates confusion – Ali Akabi, for example (again F4 SEA), is a dual citizen of Iraq and Jordan. Akabi appears on entry lists as Iraqi, however the Iraqi ASN is not recognised by the FIA, therefore he must be listed as Jordanian. This also goes back to one of my original points – if we have a dual citizen that is licenced to one of their nations of citizenship, we put down the licenced nationality. If not, we use a credible external source.
 * The overarching point is this – If a Kiwi is not in any way Italian, it is factually inaccurate to label him Italian and that goes against policy as there are sources to prove that he is a New Zealander and not Italian. Holdenman05 (talk) 23:07, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
 * What you fail to understand though is that our season and race articles list representative nationalities and not legal nationalities. therefore your Kiwi is labeled as representing Italy in those article which does follow policy and is factually correct. As I said before, you can use his personal article to explain the discrepancy between his legal nationality and his representative nationality.Tvx1 00:00, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
 * , well if 'only people who work for the company can edit', what is this? I am just a registered member of Driver Database, but I can add and edit pages, just like anyone who want to register. Corvus tristis (talk) 06:01, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Violations of WP:LINKCOLOR and MOS:NAVBOXCOLOR
So GhostOfDanGurney has over at Chip Ganassi Racing, referring to this WikiProject. The navbox uses custom styling which in itself isn't a problem, except for the fake and confusing WP:REDLINKS. This user specifically refers to Red Bull Racing as if its existence implies an established consensus to ignore MOS:ACCESSIBILITY and create confusing links.

As far as I can tell, consensus has never been established to intentionally violate WP:LINKCOLOR: "Refrain from implementing colored links that may impede user ability to distinguish links from regular text, or color links for purely aesthetic reasons."

... and:

... as well as MOS:NAVBOXCOLOR: "Colors that are useful for identification and are appropriate, representative, and accessible may be used with discretion and common sense."

So let's all agree it's time to address this issue. I'm not against arbitrary styling, except when it affects web accessibility. Jay D. Easy&#8202;(t&#8202;•&#8202;c) 10:25, 6 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Before I say anything else, it should be pointed out that this user's edit history shows he created the link MOS:LINKCOLOR before pasting it into three templates so as to argue against them being coloured like the F1 templates, so it was never "intentionally violated" like the user claims to have happened. As it stands now, Ganassi, Hendrick and RLLR are no different from the Red Bull template. Either do all or none. GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 15:29, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * linking for convenience: Hendrick Motorsports Rahal Letterman Lanigan Racing Chip Ganassi Racing GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 15:40, 6 July 2019 (UTC)


 * you haven't actually argued anything. He only created the shortcut, that MOS text was always there so it is a violation and the reason he didn't do all of them is because he got reverted after some. Please either argue one way or another rather that accuse other editors of doing things wrong. Now as points out this is a violation of MOS, these links shouldn't be red, as MOS explains. I suggest, to stop it violating MOS, that you make the background red and the text whatever colour the background used to be. I am certainly more than happy to see this happen to Red Bull's template and any others. SSSB (talk) 15:56, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I didn't claim to argue anything other than the three he changed were no different from Red Bull's. His edit history showed no intention of changing Red Bull's, anyway; I reverted three hours after his changes, after he had moved on to editing other areas. GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 16:04, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Pinging who added the colour to Hendrick Motorsport's navboxGhostOfDanGurney (talk) 16:09, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * That's neither here nor there, the point is that these templates shouldn't have red text, otherwise they don't comply with MOS, MOS it very explicit on this issue. The fact that they are no different from red bulls isn't a valid argument either, just because it's in one location doesn't make it correct and you should assume good faith and assume he wasn't aware that red bulls template was another violation. SSSB (talk) 16:16, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * And I'm being accused of intentionally violating a redirect link that was created last night. That's not an assumption of good faith, either. GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 16:49, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * GhostOfDanGurney: calm down. You're not being accused of anything. The fact is that the template is in violation of the aforementioned guidelines. Also, why does it matter that a shortcut was only recently created by me? I could just as well have used a section link. This changes nothing about the fact that an accessibility guideline is ignored. Jay D. Easy&#8202;(t&#8202;•&#8202;c) 18:54, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Basically, I’m going to second SSSB. Yes, it may be semi-precedent, but sometimes precedent is unknowingly violated. Once a rationale, backed up by policy, was given for change, it should’ve stayed. I haven’t heard anything from GhostOfDanGurney regarding why they should be kept the way they are. I’d be in favor of complying with MOS and changing all affected templates.  Willsome 4 29  (say hey or see my edits!) 16:19, 6 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Well Red Bull Racing looks absolutely terrible now... But it now "complies" with this awful policy.....GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 16:53, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Usability trumps pretty colors. This is a horrible hill to die on.  The359  ( Talk ) 16:53, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * It was pretty horrible to begin with. SSSB (talk) 16:57, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Then I will go make every F1 template the default colours. Is everyone fucking happy now?GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 16:55, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * So you're going to vandalize because you don't like having to not use the color red for links? The359  ( Talk ) 16:56, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * No I'm making everything consistent. Not vandalizing a damn thing, or else take me to ANI. Stupid that this is only an issue NOW off all times.GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 17:16, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * The consistency is that colors are allowed, except for the use of red in links because of usability issues which affect all of Wikipedia. Exceptions do not ruin the consistency.  When in time the discussion comes up is irrelevant, either you're aligned with the MOS or you're not.  The359  ( Talk ) 17:18, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

So now we have Red Bull and Torro Rosso in lovely default, and every other team in full colours. Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay! Nobody wanted that. GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 17:21, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I left them as the default until a solution can be made. You are not doing anything to actively find a solution.  If you have a better suggestion, make it.  The359  ( Talk ) 17:23, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * GhostOfDanGurney: what is with this passive aggresive child-like behavior? You were the one who reverted my edit and told me to discuss things here, which I completely agree with. Just because a precedent has been established doesn't necessarily mean it's a good precedent. The whole reason I changed the link colors is because I honestly thought they were actual red links, i.e. links to non-existent pages. The fact that I was confused is exactly why such guidelines are in place, I'd imagine. Jay D. Easy&#8202;(t&#8202;•&#8202;c) 19:04, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I already inverted the colours and it looked bad. Dark blue on red does not work. GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 17:30, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * So let it sit until someone more helpful can think of a better solution. The359  ( Talk ) 17:38, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I actually think the solution was very simple. Change the text color to one that cannot be confused with a link.Tvx1 00:31, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Which I have taken the liberty of doing for Rahal Letterman, Red Bull, Toro Rosso, Hendrick, and Chip Ganassi. None of them look ugly, none of them are red now.  The359  ( Talk ) 00:59, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

May as well have just made them default, because they look identical now, anyway. When I did Ganassi and RLL, the intent was to try to imitate the team logos. Someone then went and did the NASCAR teams the same way, so at least one person thought my idea wasn't stupid....GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 21:07, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
 * The Hendrick, RLL, and Ganassi ones were all identical before, they were literally white backgrounds with alternating black and red text. I removed the red text.  Further, because of the way you did them, the V-D-E links in the corner of the templates were also red, which makes them appear to be empty links. If you want to improve them, be my guest, just don't use red links.  The359  ( Talk ) 22:31, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

Charles Faroux
I just translated an article from the German and French wikis regarding Charles Faroux. As far as I can tell, he was one of the founders of the 24 Hours of Le Mans, so seems super notable to me (although I was more interested in his baulkline championships). Anyone know much about Le Mans, or have any sources regarding the subject? Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:10, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

1906 and 1911 Targa Florio winning times
I've started a section in Talk:Targa Florio regarding the winning times for the 1906 and 1911 Targa Florio races (which appear to be suspiciously close if not equal) and would appreciate any help you could offer, thanks. A7V2 (talk) 00:00, 10 August 2019 (UTC)