Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music of the United Kingdom/Archive 1

Article structure
OK, I think I have listed most of the main U.K. related topics on the main project page. This is what I think is the basic structure of articles:

Pop, Folk and Jazz

 * Music of the United Kingdom
 * by region
 * Folk Music of England (which was moved from Music of England in March).
 * Music of Ireland (note Music of Northern Ireland redirects there so why isn't the top page Music of Great Britain?).
 * Music of Scotland
 * Music of Wales
 * by era
 * Early British popular music
 * Music of the United Kingdom (1950s and 60s)
 * Music of the United Kingdom (1970s)
 * Music of the United Kingdom (1980s)
 * Music of the United Kingdom (1990s-2000s)
 * by area
 * Merseybeat
 * Music of Manchester
 * Music of Northumbria
 * by type
 * British hip hop
 * English hip hop
 * Scottish hip-hop
 * British jazz
 * British rock
 * Britpop
 * Broadside (music)
 * Caribbean music in the United Kingdom
 * Music Hall
 * Punk rock
 * Scottish fiddling

Orchestral, Church, Opera/Light opera

 * Classical music of the United Kingdom
 * Ballad opera
 * Celtic chant
 * English Madrigal School
 * Gilbert and Sullivan
 * Light music
 * Opera in English
 * Savoy opera

Obviously there is more information in individual articles on people and venues etc. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 13:42, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

English operas
Category:Comic operas is due to be renamed to Category:English comic operas per the discussion here. There is also a Category:English-language operettas. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 19:19, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Classical music of the United Kingdom
This article was neat in length but very thin indeed. I have been fattening it up in the 19th century but it is still hopelessly inadequate. If sufficiently fattened in all periods it could become a series of period articles (though I'm not sure that centuries is the most sensible way to subdivide as this cuts across significant phases) - such 'fattening' would also provide a more adequate basis on which to produce a lean but suitably detailed synoptic article under the original title. Hope this approach meets with gen approval, please post it or me if not, and please add/edit as seems best. Perhaps we could pack this with information and let it burst into a period series leaving an informative core. Dr Steven Plunkett 01:15, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks Steven- that looks a really good job there! What you say about splitting the page is probably a good idea (although I have seen very long pages) - the Music of the United Kingdom page does a similiar thing linking to Early Popular Music, 50s-60s, 70s, 80s-90s etc. We need to decide about the Folk Music of England page also- I think it should be probably moved back to Music of England unless we change all the other UK subpages to specifically folk music. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 23:58, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Category editing
This is a tedious process but there is a lot of clearing up to do before we get to work on articles in general. If the infrastructure is wrong, the route to articles will be misleading. One of our prime objectives I think should be to enable clear demarcation (except in the few examples of crossover) between folk music, pop music and composed/classical music in categorising articles. The present categories allocated to articles are often misleading, or insufficiently considered, and prevent this.

Take e.g. Category:English musicians. There are innumerable sub-categories to this, so no person should be listed in the head category, but everyone should be listed in the category/ies as far down the hierarchy as appropriate. Most of those listed there presently should go to some category of English pop music e.g. Category:English pop singers, Category:English pop guitarists, etc. That raises further problems down the line: e.g. Category:English guitarists lists 197 guitarists who need to be sorted according to the existing categories of. Similarly with singers, keyboard artists, etc.

I have just been looking at Category:English musicians and doing some weeding. Many of the entries are 'double-counted' - i.e. already listed under a sub-category (although not always the appropriate one) - so just need to have Category:English musicians deleted. Others are just worng - for example there were a number of English musicologists whose category Category:English musicologists is, correctly, a sub-cat of Category:English music - they are not, for the most part, musicans at all (Of course if they are they can be members of both categories).

Can I suggest a target to see Category:English musicians empty of all entries save for sub-categories. If a number of us do a few a day it won't take that long to clear up. Then we can start on English singers, etc. --Smerus 20:51, 5 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Just to point people in the direction of the WikiProject Musicians WP:MUSCAT guidelines on how to categorize musicians, in case anyone's missed them. A couple of editors in this field, including myself, have started using edit summaries that specifically refer to this, e.g. "recategorization of article per WP:MUSCAT guidelines".  It helps justify the change and publicise the guidelines at the same time.  Just a thought.  Good luck with the recat project.  I tacked Category:Welsh musicians some time ago, and it can be done! Bencherlite 00:34, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * brilliant tip, many thanks--Smerus 07:37, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

wikimobileactunsigned.com
Hello guys,

Have just started a wiki-directory of local music info across the UK - does anyone fancy popping over to help start it up? I think it could be a very powerful resource, when filled up :)

More info on the site here: http://www.wikimobileactunsigned.com

Annihilatenow 16:08, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

timeline in trends in Music of the United Kingdom
I have just finished writing


 * "Timeline of trends in Music of Spain"
 * "Timeline of trends in German Music"
 * "Timeline of trends in Music of France"
 * "Timeline of trends in Russian Music"

I notice that the "Music of the United Kingdom" is structed very differently. It is done year-by-year, which makes it impossible for me to list the major UK composers in chronological order. It certainly looks to me as if people have completely given up contributing to this page, so I shall simply edit the "common template" to make it look like the rest of Europe, unless I hear commments from someone within the next few days. Ogg (talk) 21:59, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I have now created "Timeline of trends in British music" (if anyone is reading this). Ogg (talk) 17:45, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

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Templates merger
I know that this page is pretty much abandoned, but I thought it was a good idea to post this here just in case. There are two templates this one called Template:UK music and which has British Music at the top and Template:Britishmusic, which, ironically, has Music of the United Kingdom at the top. Suggest a merger, combining the features of both. My preferred title would be "Music of the British Isles", since both include places that are in the British Isles but not in Britain or the United Kingdom. If I don't get any objections I will do this and put one template on all articles when time allows.--Sabrebd (talk) 23:35, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Britishmusic is now deleted. Plastikspork (talk) 19:37, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

AfD help
I'd be grateful for input at Articles for deletion/Richard Anthony Jay‎ - probably a borderline case, but on which side of the border? --Tagishsimon (talk) 17:51, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Early music of the British Isles
A proposal for splitting or other changes to this article is being discussed here.--''' SabreBD  (talk ) 07:58, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

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Request for comment on Biographies of living people
Hello Wikiproject! Currently there is a discussion which will decide whether wikipedia will delete 49,000 articles about a living person without references, here:

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Pictures in popular music articles
Opening up a discussion over recent changes to the following articles with the aim of adding pictures:


 * Music of the United Kingdom (1950s and 60s)
 * Music of the United Kingdom (1970s)
 * Music of the United Kingdom (1980s)
 * Music of the United Kingdom (1990s)
 * Music of the United Kingdom (2000s)

and


 * Template talk:UK music.

From my point of view, I am very happy to have pictures, and have tried to accommodate as many as possible, but they have to take second place to the text. Too many can overpower an article and a number raised copyright issues.--''' SabreBD  (talk ) 19:11, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
 * This template is too big to justify being at the top right side. It works much better at the bottom - in the same way we have done with the US music template (which you can see at the bottom of this article). TheCuriousGnome (talk) 19:33, 12 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I didnt understand what you meant by moving it to the bottom (ie changing the nature of the template). This may be a solution, but it is a major change and (given that I did object) it might have been a good idea not to just ignore me, but to explain and then see if there was a consensus on this before adjusting every relevant article. I dont plan to revert them all these changes (ie the template and move the it it back to the top of of the articles at this time), but suggest we wait bear in mind that there might be some objections from editors here. However, in the mean time, and this is quite imporant, its great to have the map on the new template, but it includes the Republic of Ireland, which is not part of the United Kingdom. Can we possibly find a more accurate picture before someone comes here with a (frankly justified) complaint, as experience suggests they will?--''' SabreBD  (talk ) 19:30, 13 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Unfortunatly I had to do so to show everyone that this solution works better - mainly because you kept on reverting any changes I made in the decade articles. I hope you would forgive me now that the you see the changes. Either way, if many other editors would object to this I promise to revert all the changes I made myself (Still I believe this won't be necessary because as you see it works much better).
 * I have put a flag of the UK instead. hope you like it better.
 * Does anyone else besides Sabrebd think the former template worked much better? TheCuriousGnome (talk) 20:02, 13 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I have to say I am not sure that the old template did work better, I am rather neutral about it. It might take some time to get any replies as this page does not get heavy traffic. On the union flag, I have to admit I did prefer the map, but at least this image solves the boundary problem. As to reversions to the content articles, those were really about other issues, so we may be able to take them page by page. Some of them are connected with guidelines and some with Wikipedia policies, so they are hard to avoid.--''' SabreBD  (talk ) 07:39, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Jackie and Bridie
A slightly surprising omission: Jackie and Bridie. I'm not in a position to work on it right now, but I think they deserve an article. - Jmabel | Talk 16:19, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

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British Soul entry
I have concerns about the quality of this article. I accept that some hard work went into it but it makes certain assumptions that are contentious. It mentions a string of artists who were influenced by soul music but who can't be described as soul singers ie.Tom Jones. It fails to mention a number of legitimate British soul acts such as Jimmy James & The Vagabonds (active in the 60s/70s), The Real Thing (a pop group yes but surely more akin to Soul Music than say David Bowie or Simply Red), Delegation (successful in the UK & USA) or Hot House (who cut one of the best british soul LPs . If one looks closely the 60s only produced a handful of soul/R&B records from England. There were more in the 80s with groups like Light of the World and solo acts like Junior the latter who had a huge no 1 in the USA.

There is a body of opinion that argues that Soul Music asa seperate entity was subsumed by other genres and I'm in this camp. The article mentions the British soul invasion - Some fine singers but its not soul music that morphed into something else around 1980.

Just a suggestion but why not ask the author Clive Richardson to write an article or perhaps John 'Soul' Smith. They were around in the 60s and understand what went on. dorkinglad (talk)

British rock etc music categories - a standard?
As I've pointed out on the project 'deletion' (rename to British Music?) page, I've had problems with Scottish music categories. The problem was the rock and indie cats - indie being a sub cat. I couldn't understand where famous Scottish indie bands like Jesus and Mary Chain were, then discovered the mess. Initially I notices the band The Fire Engines were not categorised at all - which is no wonder really, as these things are not very accessible. I'm not always a big fan of WP lists to be honest, but music is an area where they can be useful. As a proviso to that I would say that British music has to be a category too, as bands in the UK can classically be 'multi-cultural' and move around, whichever country they are (or sometimes simply happen to be) formed in.

The main thing with lists is that they don't really work when things that should be in them are missing.

For the band called Ballboy (an indie band that was in the Scottish rock cat, but not in the indie one), I've done this:

DEFAULTSORT:Ballboy

Category:Scottish rock music groups

Category:Scottish indie rock groups

Category:British rock music groups

Category:British indie rock groups

This could perhaps be a standard format (ie top and sub cats for both the constituent UK country and 'British'), with editors adding the other cats ('Bands from Edinburgh' etc) as they see fit - or via this project if it starts up again. Matt Lewis (talk) 23:51, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Recent Mfd/proposal to redirect
The recent Mfd was closed as follows:


 * "The result of the discussion was No consensus. Closing this as no consensus with no prejudice to further discussion taking place to decide what to do here. In passing, any new discussion should probably start from the guidelines provided at the MfD page for WikiProject pages: "It is generally preferable that inactive WikiProjects not be deleted, but instead be marked as, redirected to a relevant WikiProject, or changed to a task force of a parent WikiProject, unless the WikiProject was incompletely created or is entirely undesirable." It should be noted that the options listed there don't need a new MfD but can be done by any editor. "

I propose the project be redirected to WikiProject United Kingdom. Alternative proposals are welcome. -- Klein zach  00:50, 1 July 2011 (UTC)


 * As there have been no responses about this, I'll go ahead and make the redirect. -- Klein zach  23:51, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

OK - I've reverted the redirect. How do you know that people haven't read my comment above (for example) and are taking its advice? People do come to projects to read you know, not always to comment. I must admit I was tempted to just start Wikiproject British Music, but I did promise to make that move request per The proposed project-deletion discussion. People may just want to keep what we have here. Certainly we need something. UK contemporary band music is in a mess - deleting this project is not the answer, it's just part of a disorganised area. If you expect UK noticeboard contributors to help out, then post a comment asking them to do it - redirecting there isn't going to solve anything. My apologies to people who have been waiting on me to start the Request for Move - it's late, but I'll do it now. Matt Lewis (talk) 00:14, 8 July 2011 (UTC)


 * It certainly needs a bit more time to allow replies.--''' SabreBD  (talk ) 01:14, 8 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Given the recent Mfd (and apparent interest in this issue) I allowed sufficient time, however I'm happy for this to be discussed again here. -- Klein zach  07:58, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think you bothered reading most of that apparently "humongous" Mfd given your representations of it and where it left us. It's not in any way for you to say where and whether things are discussed or not. You are just one editor with one opinion. Matt Lewis (talk) 15:53, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Requested move to WikiProject British Music

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move - While there is no consensus to move, a merge appears to have more support. If a merge is to take place, it should be discussed through the normal channels. Neelix (talk) 17:37, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

WikiProject Music of the United Kingdom → WikiProject British Music –

During a recent Request for Deletion for this wikiproject - closed as No Consensus - I promised to essentially move discussion onto a Request for Move. In truth, I think that the result may be to keep the title as it is, but more discussion is certainly needed, esp as there are people who wish to delete this Wikiproject because it never really took off. I find that unacceptable though, because A) how many wikiprojects are 'thriving', and why should they be? B) people can always refer to it when needed (ie at least it is there), C) people like me waste their time looking for them, and it will only be restarted - so it may as well be sorted out now. Also, contemporary British music is in a bit of a mess and does need sorting, and no doubt there are various other issues too.

The renaming suggestions that arose in the eventually-fruitful AfD were:


 * WikiProject British Music (which parallels WikiProject Irish Music) – ie this request. Northern Ireland and Ireland are/were British, though were never in Britain, only the UK. When dealing with pre-unification times, the term 'British' is less political than 'United Kingdom' - and thus more acceptible (if not entirely accurate).


 * WikiProject Britannic Music - perhaps stronger in being more flexible? It perhaps better suits music prior to unification and the eventual use of the term 'British'. In all cases, a leading paragraph can detail what is covered by the project and not.


 * Keep the same WikiProject Music of the United Kingdom title and simply lead the project with a paragraph explaining relavant history (ie that Ireland was part of the UK during the 19C etc, the Channel Islands are included, early music is covered too etc). Crossover sometimes happens with these things – it's not a disaster.


 * Other suggestions included WikiProject Music of the British Isles (living alongside WikiProject Irish Music – which could be seen more specifically as a 'sound' than an area), or having multiple wikiprojects for each of the constituent UK countries (although some music is simply 'British' in that it doesn't easily slot into those nations, or wish to, and those projects could also appear with a UK/British music project in existence anyway.)

I would actually be happy with any of them (apart from only using the constituent countries), but I'll initially go for "British Music", partly because it neatly parallels "Irish Music", and partly because I think people will clearly see that it covers what it does (which of course will be laid out anyway). It seems the least problematic to me. Matt Lewis (talk) 01:34, 8 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Merge to WP:UK as a task force. Doesn't seem like there's much activity (it is marked inactive), so should just become WP:UK/Music. 65.93.15.213 (talk) 05:19, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm going to remove that now Mr IP (I actually meant to last night). Kleinzach put it in, and after I'd contributed to the project, and people were debating on it too. Matt Lewis (talk) 15:45, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Given this discussion, it's fine to remove the tag, that doesn't matter — but it should be remembered that this was nominated for Mfd as a "Dead project". -- Klein  zach  16:29, 8 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Redirect to WP:UK or merge as WP:UK/Music. 1. Oppose rename as WikiProject British Music to avoid this becoming a non-productive political football. The summary for the requested move above does not represent the Mfd, which can be read at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:WikiProject Music of the United Kingdom. 2. If Matt Lewis wants to start a new project he should go through the WikiProject Council proposal process to see if there is adequate support for the idea. If he obtains the support of a dozen or more volunteers then there will be a good basis for a fresh start on a proper collaboration, hopefully concentrating on music rather than politics. 3. Genre-based music projects have consistently been more successful than country-based ones, see WikiProject Music/Statistics for the relevant figures. (No national project has yet succeeded in accumulating more than one archive page of discussions.) -- Klein  zach  08:18, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I seriously object to you crow-barring pejorative "politics" into the decision simply because of the word 'British' (or previously 'UK'). I just cannot tell you how offensive I find it. The UK simply exists, yet is constantly under threat on WP from people who suggest it is best to 'stear clear'. It is actually you who are concentrating on 'politics' all the time Kleinzach, by insisting it is a real and negative value (instead of just a technical one to work out in terms of content). And I wish you'd stop telling people what to do and how to do it all the time - I've started successful wikiprojects before just by going ahead and doing it. The word 'British' is a cultural-enough term, and music is very-often cultural - or at least the music I listen to is. Look at folk etc. The UK is famous for crossover and musical diversity - a UK/British project is essential to make sense of it. Matt Lewis (talk) 15:45, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Pls just disregard Kleinzach comments - hes does not speak for the rest of us - Why he goes around insulting people and there projects is beyond me. Saying you need a dozen or more volunteers is a lie!  He seem to think that projects like  WikiProject Canadian music and WikiProject Australian music despite there many many FAs and GAs are useless. He seem to measure projects success by how much they use there talk page rather then the article they work on.  Moxy (talk) 15:43, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Moxy: WP:UNCIVIL Read it. It starts "Incivility consists of personal attacks, rudeness, disrespectful comments, and aggressive behaviours that disrupt the project and lead to unproductive stress and conflict. Once again you have gone over the line. -- Klein zach '' 22:14, 9 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep as "Music of the United Kingdom". "British Music" is obviously perfectly valid as a category, but it might be better to keep "Music of the United Kingdom" for the project, which is more specific and more contemporary. It's also a neater way to define and accommodate the inevitable British/Irish overlap. "British Music" is more ambiguous, as "British" can refer historically to the music of the ancient Britons and medieval Britons (Welsh), or geographically to the British Isles, Great Britain, and in a wider sense to the shared musical culture of the British Empire, British Commonwealth, etc. Ideally, there should be room for both categories, as "British" and the "United Kingdom" are close synonyms only in a contemporary context. Lachrie (talk) 02:12, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Proposal to Merge to WP:UK
Following the 'Requested move' discussion above and closure with the words "While there is no consensus to move, a merge appears to have more support. If a merge is to take place, it should be discussed through the normal channels." So we should now consider a merger. I propose a merger to WP:UK/Music. (Another alternative would be a merger to WP:UK as a task force.) It would be appreciated if everyone could remember that this is an exercise in establishing consensus. Please support, oppose, suggest or whatever! Thank you. -- Klein zach  04:20, 28 July 2011 (UTC)