Wikipedia talk:WikiProject NASCAR/Archive 2

Questions
I just wrote an article on Donny Lia. If someone has time, can they please check it out and let me know how well I did. Also, do articles on drivers outside the top three NASCAR series have to conform with WikiProject NASCAR in anyway? I'm very new, so let me know if I'm doing anything wrong or that could be better. Thanks -Justin Myers 17 January 2006
 * Articles don't "have to conform" with anything. If something is short and non-wikified, somebody on Recent Changes patrol will probably notice and stick a "bio-stub" tag on it.  This project is a nearly informal attempt to get NASCAR-related articles (including, as far as I know, the Modified series where Lia is getting regionally notable) improved to meet Wikipedia standards and the guidelines that this project's contributors develop.  I wrote most of the Richie Evans stuff before this project started, and have worked on Jerry Cook, so I support including the most notable Modified racers whether they're included in the project or not.  I might buy the Bugs Stevens book just to do a WP article.  I'll take a look at the Lia article today.  Barno 18:57, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Did some edits to Lia. Made several suggestions on that article's talk page, and pointed to some WP policy pages.  Barno 19:59, 17 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I echo Barno's comments, that this WikiProject is an attempt to improve any and all NASCAR related articles in the WikiPedia. The only issue I have with drivers outside the top three series (Majors, as I will call them), is how notable is that person, and are they notable enough to warrant an encyclopedia article? So far, the definition (as agreed upon in the archive) is:

For notable drivers:
 * Major Series Champion
 * Major Series Rookie of the Year.
 * Major Series race winner.
 * Major Series race Top Ten race finish.
 * Major Series race Pole Position.
 * Currently racing in any of the Major Series.
 * Death on track. (Morbid, yes, but there is a Category for it...)
 * unusual trivia (see archive for that definition)

For other notable criterion:
 * Crew Chief of NASCAR Champion team
 * Owner of NASCAR Champion team


 * These are hardly complete, but a starting point. My question is, how would we come up with an objective qualification for notability for drivers outside the Major Series? (I'm not saying that this can't be done, but I have already seen Formula One drivers on Articles_for_deletion, with the comments to the effect "So the guy drove around the track once or twice, So What?" I just want to have a valid point to make as to why the driver's article should stay.) -slowpokeiv 22:58, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
 * That's interesting slowpoke. I haven't noticed that with NASCAR articles since Bobby Hamilton was nominated for Afd. --D-Day 22:41, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Someone please dig out SCR

 * (reposted since big talkpage got archived) Stock Car Racing magazine, from 1964 through the time Dick Berggren's staff left the new owner in the Nineties, was the most authoritative source from which we can establish notability by WP's standards.  There isn't an article index to the old issues on SCR's website, so we need someone to find the hardcopies.  (My father's got auctioned off when he died.)  I remember reading specific articles about half the people on the Requested Articles list and a lot of the people on the Stubs Needing Expansion list.  Can someone help us, please?  Barno 19:56, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Regional NASCAR Series (and weekly)
Per slowpokeiv's comments above, we should develop standards for drivers and others who achieved notability in NASCAR outside of the three national touring series now considered major. We also need a different template than the active/retired/deceased infoboxes, which focus stats only on the Cup level. For inclusion criteria, I'd suggest:
 * Any driver with more than one championship in a regional division, or with championships in more than one regional division, or with more than one Weekly Racing Series national championship
 * (maybe) any driver with one championship in a regional division
 * (maybe) any driver who has won the Weekly Racing Series national championship
 * Any driver with more than one championship in the Modified or Late Model Sportsman divisions when they were as national as NASCAR reached, and there was no higher division except Grand National
 * (maybe) any driver with one championship in old national Mod/LMS (but that's dozens of guys, some of whose careers aren't well-documented)
 * Any car owner with five or more (lifetime) championships in regional divisions, or in the old national Modified or LMS divisions
 * Are there regional crew chiefs (who aren't also team owners) who might merit WP inclusion? Do we want some standard such as five championships, as above?  How about anybody from pre-Tour days such as Billy Nacewicz?  Same deal?  The top few owners and a couple other crewchiefs might have gotten coverage in racing trade papers back in those days, but none in most newspapers.  Arguing notability is greyer for non-drivers.
 * Are there any officials who are notable for regional series or national Mod/LMS? Morris Metcalfe comes to mind as someone who made NASCAR regional scoring and Modified national-championship-race scoring consistent for decades, but any media coverage he's gotten outside weekly trade papers is for his Cup scoring work.
 * Barno 23:53, 17 January 2006 (UTC), edited Barno 18:54, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Possible OMS Remnant?
I looked at the Google Maps link on the Ontario Motor Speedway page and I was zooming in further to have a look around:

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Ontario,+CA&t=h&hl=en&ll=34.074524,-117.572207&spn=0.005936,0.008787&t=h

Can someone confirm if the partially obscured arcing feature shown about 800' southeast of the intersection of North Haven Ave. and 4th St. is one of the old turns? If so, someone might want to point it out in the OMS page.

This is not racing-related, but I'd appreciate it if someone could point out where the California Jam stage was. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.15.33.4 (talk • contribs) 19:24, 20 January 2006


 * That arc is indeed the former location of Turn 2 at OMS. Take a look at this 2004 sattelite image and compare it to this 1981 USGS map. I would assume that the California Jam stage was located near the start/finish line in the center of the front straightaway. --TantalumT e lluride 21:37, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Articles for the Wikipedia 1.0 project
Hi, I'm a member of the Version_1.0_Editorial_Team, which is looking to identify quality articles in Wikipedia for future publication on CD or paper. We recently began assessing using these criteria, and we are looking for A-class, B-class, and Good articles, with no POV or copyright problems. Can you recommend any suitable articles? Please post your suggestions here. Thanks a lot! Gflores Talk 17:40, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Elliott Sadler
Sadler's birthday is on April 30 not August 30!

Owner Infobox
I have removed the Crew Chief and Associate Sponsor info from the Owner Infobox. This information was making the boxes too hard to read and too long on the larger teams' pages (ie Roush). The inforbo should be a quick snapshot of primary information someone can quickly scan over and get the "essential" information quickly. Wikipedianinthehouse 20:44, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

North Wilkesboro Speedway
Need some more memorable moments from the track. I applied the infobox from Daytona, but it doesn't fit all that well. Should an infobox be made up for closed tracks? Please peer review the article and infobox. Royalbroil 20:55, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

---

I found and added some interesting memories. Please still review the infobox. Royalbroil 22:07, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Images
Any suggestions for sources for photos? Is it okay to take a photograph of my television screen if a driver was shown on network TV coverage (which I believe is copyrighted by the network)? I have LOTS of VCR tapes full of old Cup races from when ESPN2 showed the best races of all-time (at NASCAR's 50th anniversary in 1999). The rules used at the final Riverside race would shock new fans to the sport. Royalbroil 22:20, 22 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Sure. Just be sure that we can see them clearly (a.k.a. they can't be blurry) and that when you upload them, you give them the screenshot tag. That makes them fair use and thus, eligible for Wikipedia use. Thanks! -- D -Day Somebody talk to me. Please somebody! Anybody! 23:47, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with Day but you must also use the sceenshots in relevant articles dealing with the events, car or driver in the screenshot for them to be fair use. -Nv8200p talk 14:34, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I am going about it the old fashioned way. If I find a pic on the internet that I think would be good on Wikipedia, I email the webmaster or otherwise try to find someone who holds the copyright and ask for permission.Dspillmann 00:41, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * (Followup (this is probably in the wikiFAQ somewhere, but I have not been able to find it))I have corresponded with the Holman Moody website regarding use of some of their photos. He has very graciously allowed use of some of their images.  All the legalese on fair use and permission makes my head hurt.  Sice I have his permission via email, how would I tag these photos when I upload them?Dspillmann 17:38, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * (Followup2) Looks like I found it under Fair Use Tags.  should probably do it. Dspillmann
 * Thank you for working to help both Wikipedia and photo owners make sure those pics (YAY for Holman Moody photos!) are used in ways that everybody's satisfied with. On some discussion boards there have been messy controversies over unauthorized or uncredited use of race pictures.  Barno 23:26, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Infobox issue with former Cup drivers now in CTS or BGN
I've been adding infoboxes to some drivers past and present. The infobox template doesn't fit well for someone like Ted Musgrave. Any suggestions? Royalbroil 14:40, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * We were trying to find a way to fix that in a previous discussion, but it stalled. For the time being, I'll take the code for the regular template and do some substing to make it fit. You can find the example on Ed Berrier. -- D -Day Somebody talk to me. Please somebody! Anybody! 15:40, 24 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I think that any driver that had significant Cup experience at any point in the past should have the current cup driver template. How about any former Cup driver that is a current (at least half-time) driver in busch or truck should get a template for BOTH their Cup and their current series, with the current series listed on top.Royalbroil 13:44, 26 February 2006 (UTC)


 * That sounds good to me. I'll work on it today, and if an issue comes up, we can probably merge the templates. -- D -Day Somebody talk to me. Please somebody! Anybody!Click to view my evil userboxes 13:57, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

 UPDATE  I've created Busch current driver and Busch former driver for use in such articles. The Truck Series ones will be created ASAP. -- D -Day My fan mail. Click to view my evil userboxes 20:34, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Dale Earnhardt
I just nominated the very poor Dale Earnhardt article for Article Improvement Drive. Thanks --Jaranda wat's sup 03:47, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Proposal for a Car infobox
I was just thinking that maybe we should create an infobox that features information about each separate car team that could be put on each page. It would summarize all the major info about the team, such as:
 * Photo
 * Driver
 * Crew Chief
 * Sponsors
 * Make/Model
 * Years

This could be a good way to standardize all the photos for race teams as well, as they'd all be included in this infobox. In addition, it'd greatly increase the speed of getting just the basic current statistics of each team. We could also eliminate some of this info from the main team infobox then, too, such as sponsor info. Comments? Ideas? Airline 19:00, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Jayski images
Are jayski.com images fair to use here? I looked at his site, and it appears to me that they ARE NOT. I noticed the image for Jamie McMurray is from jayski. What do you think? Royalbroil 17:09, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I've tagged them with CopyrightedFreeUse with very few problems. He said that anybody can use them as long as he gets credit. My rules for Jaysski images are this:1) Only use the ones that he or one of the fans tooks, and 2) Don't use the ones that have his website's name all over them. They look ugly. -- D -Day My fan mail. Click to view my evil userboxes 20:16, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good. Thank you. Royalbroil 03:54, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I found a huge collection of free use images from the Florida Photographic Collection at. They use the tag: Flphoto I've added them to quite a few drivers' pages. They are all pictures taken in Florida. There are images available from the Daytona 500 in 1962, the Daytona Beach Road Course. It's a nice resource for 1960's and earlier drivers. You may even find newer drivers. You just need to give the site their props. Royalbroil 04:20, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Nah nah nah nah...
Front Row Motorsports just launched their website today. And their introductory paragragh came from our article about them! Even better, that article is in their links section. And I was the one wrote that article! :-p Heck with featured article, I'm gaining the attention of PR directors!!! ;-) -- D -Day My fan mail. Click to view my evil userboxes 20:53, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Congradulations! I'm happy to see that your writing skills are recognized outside of Wikipedia! Royalbroil 04:20, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Daytona Beach Road Course
I finished the article. I will self-nom it for Did You Know. Please do a technical review of the article, and correct any errors you see. There sure is a lot of history there. I wasn't aware of the 15 land speed records set there before I wrote the article. Royalbroil 05:54, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Check out the article. It is currently featured in the "Did You Know" section on the main page! Royalbroil 19:44, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

A plea for help
I recently created CTS_current_driver, but something is screwed up with it. If any can fix it, I would appreciate it. -- D -Day My fan mail. Click to view my evil userboxes 21:08, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I did some minor edits to the tempate and to Ted Musgrave. I don't see anything wrong anymore.


 * I can see a conflict with using 2 templates for a driver: several fields have the same name like Last_Win, First_Win, etc. Otherwise it looks ready for prime time. Royalbroil 01:40, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I nominated the 1990 Daytona 500 article on articles for deletion
Articles for deletion/1990 Daytona 500 for discussion. I moved whatever was salvagable from the article into a new section under Daytona 500 called Memorable Daytona 500s. Its the only Daytona 500 article about a single article as far as I know. Please vote as you see fit. Royalbroil 04:22, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

PLEASE LEAVE THE LIST OF RACES ON NASCAR SCHEDULES ALONE!
I had to re-edit the List of NASCAR Races because some clown decided to put up postponements on them. Any postponements should be listed in the 2006 in NASCAR section. Thanks for reading. NoseNuggets 12:02 US EDT Mar 28 2006.


 * Or better yet, not listed at all! Recury 15:30, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Major WikiProject NASCAR image issues
NASCAR is an visual sport. Wikipedia users HAVE to be able to see pictures of the cars and drivers to know who the article is written about. Wikipedia images are currently under a major overhaul, and a significant number of images in WikiProject NASCAR have been deleted. I have spent a significant number of hours trying to find image responsitories that are able to be used and to understand the new policies. Most new images that get uploaded to the project end up getting deleted quickly. This is a waste of time for 1) the image uploader, 2) the people who reviewing the images, and 3) the people who are deleting the images. This is VERY COUNTERPRODUCTIVE! We all need to understand that unfairly used images open up Wikipedia to potential lawsuits. I ask Wiki Image experts to create a list of available resources and methods that is specific to this project for obtaining images that will NOT be deleted for unfair uses.

The image upload screen appears to be woefully out of date and needs a major review. Many of the image tags are obsolete or outdated.

List of image resources that shouldn't get deleted:
 * 1) Images that a wikipedia contributor took themself provided there is a proper summary and image copyright tag (preferred tags, , , or ) on the image description page (See Image:Old log skidder.jpg as an example of adequate summary and licensing).
 * 2) Florida Photographic Collection Images for drivers from the 1960s and earlier. Tag: Flphoto.
 * 3) Images from another copyright holder subject to the provisions of item 1 (permission to use only on Wikipedia or educational/non-commercial is not acceptable) and written documentation in English from the copyright holder granting the license. The permssion documentation should placed on the image's discussion page. There should be a note on the image description page referring to the documentation (See Image:Zebra finch.jpg for an example). Contact information for the copyright holder must be included so permission can be verified if necessary.
 * 4) Public domain websites such as most of the military websites (Examples: U.S. Army Racing,U.S. Marines, U.S. Navy, U.S. Coast Guard, and U.S. Air Force). Read the Privacy and Security page to verify the site is public domain (and provide a link to it) and provide the proper summary and image copyright tag on the image description page (See Image:Vehicle simulator.jpg for example). To find these image, enter .mil or .gov (example: NASCAR .mil) in a search engine.
 * 5) Images from photo hosting sites such as flickr can be used if the copyright holder grants a free license like those mentioned in item 1 on the webpage the image is taken from. A link to the webpage must be provided on the image description page. If the image says "All Rights Reserved," the image is not acceptable on Wikipedia, probably not even as fair use.
 * 6) Copyrighted websites, publications, etc. - These images can be used if they come from the proper source, are tagged with a proper fair use tag and used in an article for which the image would qualify as fair use.
 * a) Any image that is taken from another copyright holder and tagged with any "free" use license will be deleted unless it meets the terms of item 3. Virtually any creative work from most countries is copyrighted by default.
 * b) Claiming fair use on an image without providing the source of the copyright holder will most certainly be challenged and the image will probably deleted.
 * c) Reliable sources for images are the racing companies (Penske Racing), the sponsors (Ford Motor Racing) and the drivers and agencies that represents them. These images can be tagged . Images from sites like Race 2 Win will probably not stand as the pedigree of the image is uncertain.
 * d) These images have to be used in a fair use manner. The image use should be limited to one article concerning the subject of the image. Fair use images of cars should not be in articles about drivers and vice-versa. If the image cannot qualify as promotional, I recommend the tag. With all fair use images, a fair use rationale should be provided based on the four factors found at Fair_use. Not all factors have to be covered, but the more, the stronger the fair use defense.

List of images that will get deleted:
 * 1) Images with no source, no license or tagged only for use on Wikipedia or for non-commercial use.
 * 2) Images that are tagged with no summary documentation to support the copyright tag.
 * 3) Images from sources that offer images for sale such as Getty Images
 * 4) News images from the Associated Press and other wire services. The only exception might be an image of unique  historical value that can be argued is in the public interest to be used and used in an article to which the image adds significant value.
 * 5) Images that are watermarked or have copyright info embedded on them.
 * 6) High resolution fair use images. Try to keep image size under 100K.

Add any images you upload and the articles they are linked to your watchlist and defend the images if they are nominated for deletion.
 * Most of the images came from a website whose images were copyrighted but we were allowed to use as long as credit was given. Evidently, that has now gone obsoltete. -- D -Day My fan mail. Click to view my evil userboxes 23:28, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Scott Wimmer, Ward Burton & Daytona articles
I mentioned these "problems" on the respective articles' talk pages, but I decided to mention them here as well.
 * Scott Wimmer's article has a photograph of the #22 car involved in a crash at an unknown track...during an unknown event. Although I'm an avid follower of NASCAR, it's unclear to me what track it's taking place and and during what even. I pointed out that the photograph is neither captioned nor thumbnailed, and there's no description on the image's page.
 * Ward Burton's article mentions that he was born Ward Burton. It seems redundant to me, although it may have been done for clarification's sake. If that's the case...my pointing it out is null. However, I felt it should be pointed out, as redundancy would tend to ruin an article, in my opinion.

I didn't edit the articles for the simple fact that I'd rather gain the opinions of others involved in the NASCAR project before going all-out and editing something that probably doesn't need to be edited...although the Wimmer article most definitely does need to be fixed.

It should also be noted that Daytona's page erroneously refers to the track as "The Great American Race." Only the Daytona 500 is known by that...the track itself isn't. Otherwise, the Pepsi 400 would be the Great American Race, too.

—Wlmaltby3 09:56, 3 April 2006 (UTC), edited Wlmaltby3 09:58, 3 April 2006 (UTC), second edit Wlmaltby3 10:07, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * See my reply on the Scott Wimmer talk page regarding the image.


 * As for the Ward Burton thing, it appears that, originally, the page read (born John Edward Burton III...), but it was changed to just Ward Burton by Royalbroil on this edit. The reason may be because the only sources on Google I can find are forums and a Wikipedia mirror, but if it is truly his full name, the article should be changed to read John Edward Burton III (born...) and the infobox should be changed too.


 * The Daytona issue looks incorrect to me, as the Daytona 500 itself is called that, not the track. Dom Rem  | Yeah? 21:39, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd like to thank you for clearing that up. Like I said, I'd have done it myself but I'm not that experienced yet, and I didn't want to go doing things I shouldn't be doing. I'm also not too sure on Burton's real name...but it did still seem redundant to me to mention that he was born named Ward Burton if he goes by his birth name. I'll try to look into it further. I'm also glad you agreed on the Daytona problem; perhaps someone should change it. Thanks for your help! —Wlmaltby3 00:07, 4 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The Ward Burton issue appeared to be vandalism to me. If someone can source it from a reliable source, then we DEFINITELY should change it. I removed the redundancy from the article, because it sounds wrong like you pointed out.


 * You're right, of course, about the Daytona 500 being the Great American Race. Wlmaltby3 - you're doing a pretty good job of coding for someone with little experience! Royalbroil 03:16, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Numbers
They asked to me to develop a "formula" so to speak of when NASCAR #s should be mentioned on their pages. I decided that all numbers from modern-era Championship Teams (i.e. 18 will have mention that it was Bobby Labonte's winning car number in 2000), while numbers without past champions (i.e. 19 does not mention Jeremy Mayfield) will NOT mention NASCAR #s. The only exception is #6 for Mark Martin and #33 for Harry Gant. I have already gone through all the pages and done the proper editing. Tim Quievryn

ARCA racers category
I have nominated the Category:ARCA racers be renamed Category:ARCA drivers in order to be consistent with Category:NASCAR drivers, Category:World of Outlaws drivers, Category:American Speed Association drivers, etc. Let any comments you have here. Royalbroil 03:26, 17 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Now some of the voters want to spell out the ARCA because its an abbreviation. There's even talk of spelling out the NASCAR drivers category to "National Association of Stock Car Automobile Racers drivers". How come every time I try to do some fine tuning at "Articles for Deletion" and "Categories for Deletion" that it has to blow up in my face? My Wikistress goes from "Just Fine" to "STRESSED"! I'd like to see all of the WikiProject NASCAR people go there and vote for sanity. You'll be typing in such a long name for the categories if you don't. Royalbroil 00:35, 19 April 2006 (UTC)


 * LOL calm down. I'll go and vote, and everything will be alright. We had some confusion with the deletion of the Bobby Hamilton article before. Trust me, there are other things worth stressing about. --D-Day(Wouldn't you like to be a pepper too?) 14:45, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Categorization
I spent a lot of today cleaning up the NASCAR category and just wanted to get some opinions on some other ideas I had:
 * On the project page here it said next to Category:NASCAR tracks "(Note: US NASCAR tracks are also crosslisted in Category:U.S. car race tracks)". I'm guessing that is the category that got moved to Category:Motor racing venues in the United States, right? If so, is there a reason why are they crosslisted? NASCAR tracks is a subcategory of Motor racing venues in the US.
 * Does anyone have a problem with me trying to move Category:NASCAR Rookie of the Year to Category:NASCAR Rookies of the Year? Or maybe Category:NASCAR Rookie of the Year award winners or something to that effect?
 * The category Category:NASCAR series only has 3 articles in it (one for each of the top 3 series). I think we could either 1) Write articles for all of those NASCAR regional series and put those in the category as well (I don't remember exactly how many there are but I think we'd end up with about 10 total articles, which isn't too bad I guess) or 2) Just delete that category and put the three series articles into Category:NASCAR where they would fit rather nicely. Recury 23:31, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Aye to proposals two and three. --D-Day(Wouldn't you like to be a pepper too?) 00:04, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I was wondering about #1 too - no idea. #2-I will vote to support either new name, in either case it should be named plural. I prefer the second category name - very descriptive. Please let use know here if you do the nomination so we can vote. #3 I think the category should stay. I was thinking long-term that the regional series would and should be set up. I planned on eventually creating the articles if someone else didn't beat me to it. I have already had a discussion with User:Barno about setting up an article for the Modifieds, but neither of us has developed it yet. I would vote against removing the category on CFD. Royalbroil 14:16, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I am liking Category:NASCAR Rookie of the Year award winners more now too. I'll probably change it sometime this week if no one has another other objections/suggestions. Someone (I forget who, but thanks!) created an article for the Busch North/Busch East series the other day so I'll leave Category:NASCAR series as is. I'll probably un-crosslist #1 (again, if no one has any objections) later this week. Recury 20:18, 25 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I've removed Category:NASCAR tracks from Category:Motor racing venues in the United States because there are a couple NASCAR tracks (Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez, Suzuka) that aren't in the US. I guess that can be the reason why we crosslist them. Recury 15:11, 6 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Category:NASCAR Rookie of the Year → Category:NASCAR Rookie of the Year award winners, let your opinion be known here! Recury 15:31, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

NASCAR Français
I don't know if any of you are really going to care, but I wanted to let you know that in addition to writing many of our project's article, I have been writing some of our NASCAR articles at Wikipedia France. The articles are very short, but I feel that as part of Wikiproject NASCAR, this does include spreading our knowledge. Just a heads up. User:DaNASCAT 23:10, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Image on project template
The image used apparently wasn't free use (see Template:WikiProject NASCAR and Template:User WP NASCAR). A taxicab was swapped in, but that didn't work at all for me. Any other suggestions for what image to use? Picking a certain driver probably would be too controversial, so I picked the image on the NASCAR page that has lots of drivers. Royalbroil 03:12, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * LOL, a taxi? The one you have in there now works fine, but we had the NASCAR logo in there before and that's probably what it should be. Why did we have to change that? Aren't corporate logos fair game? Recury 20:18, 25 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The person who changed the logo to the taxi said in their comments that the image needs to be free use. I'd rather see the NASCAR logo too. I don't like how this current image scales on the project member infobox for user pages. Royalbroil 13:28, 26 April 2006 (UTC)


 * It's my understanding that the NASCAR logo would be ineligible to use on the template. While we use it on other parts of Wikipedia, as a "fair use" image, we can't use it on the template. There has to be someone on this WikiProject that has been to a NASCAR race, has taken a picture and is willing to have it be out there as "free". Sue Anne 22:34, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Newsletter
I couldn't help but notice that some other of the Wikiprojects and orginizations have set up newsletters. Should we add one here? --D-Day(Wouldn't you like to be a pepper too?) 22:49, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * If we're going to do one that is posted here on the talk page, I wouldn't mind. I wouldn't support one which spammed the talk pages of all the project participants. Sue Anne 23:03, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Most projects that do have a newsletter have a "Do Not Spam" list for those who do not wish to receive the newsletter on their talk page. --D-Day(Wouldn't you like to be a pepper too?) 23:06, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with Sue Anne. The current methods of communication have been effective as far as I'm concerned. I wouldn't mind see one here though. Maybe I don't see the whole picture. What might included in the newsletter? Royalbroil 04:41, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * That I'm still trying to figure out. Perhaps, a listing of articles under construction, or articles that have been listed for cleanup/create for a while and haven't seen much action. Any ideas would be appreciated. --D-Day(Wouldn't you like to be a pepper too?) 14:48, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Modified Tour article posted; need one for Southern Modified Tour

 * I've written (with help from User:Royalbroil) an article for the Whelen Modified Tour. It still needs some facts in the tables of champs and Rookie of the Year winners; it could use year-by-year descriptions of the championship chase; and it needs citations of reliable sources for most of the historical and descriptive parts.  It should also get a couple of historical photos of early Modifieds, of 1970ish coupes and coaches, and of 1980ish Pintos and Vegas.  (Eventually I hope to split a 1947-84 NASCAR Modifieds article off from this one.)  We need someone with more information to write an article about the Whelen Southern Modified Tour.  Barno 22:29, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Image Question
I found this article that has "press release" on top. Do the images on there fall under the "press kit" image tag, thereby making them fair use? --D-Day(Wouldn't you like to be a pepper too?) 22:46, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll ask User:Nv8200p. I have another question for him. He seems have a clear understanding of the image policies. Royalbroil 00:27, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe these images would be fair use using the "press kit" image tag if the articles you use the images in must are relevant, such as an article about the event that the pictures were taken at or about the person pictured, preferably in a section about the person's involvement with the event. Putting these images in a general article about NASCAR or trucks or shock absorbers etc. would not be fair use -Nv8200p talk 21:02, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Notability?
What is the definition of notability, in the NASCAR world? I pose the following points as to my definition, in my definition, any of the following are enough for notability.
 * Series Champion (eg: Kurt Busch as 2004 NEXTEL Cup, Brian Vickers as 2003 Busch, etc...)
 * Series Rookie of the Year.
 * Winner of a race.
 * Top Ten race finish.
 * Has qualified for a Pole Position.
 * Currently racing in any of the three majors series. (NEXTEL, Busch, Truck)
 * Death on track. (Morbid, yes, but there is a Category for it...)

Any further ideas/comments are requested. -slowpokeiv 14:19, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Kyle Busch, not Kurt. Kurt won a Truck title.  Barno 00:58, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Those seem good to me. Maybe another one to add would be an obscure fact about them that would make them notable. For example, H.B. Bailey was not very successful as a NASCAR driver. But, he was the driver to make a qualifying lap for the Brickyard 400. That's just an example, and it would have to be something very earthshattering in order for it to qualify(so it wouldn't be, first driver that cheated on a geometry exam, etc.). Also, I think perrenial fan favorites would be good enough(e.g. J.D. McDuffie, Kirk Shelmerdine) even if they haven't dominated the sport. --D-Day 13:04, 31 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Hmm, sounds good, one more criterion (to restate your comment) would be unusual trivia. (Who was the first driver to take a qualifying lap at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway?) Re: McDuffie, even though he never won a race, he had 106 Top Tens, and a pole, so would qualify as noteable there. Re: Shelmerdine, is technically a current racer, so could qualify there. In my mind, he would also qualify as crew chief for 5 of Dale Earnhardt's Winston Cup championships, so maybe we should add Crew Chief of NASCAR Champion? While we're at it, Owner of NASCAR Champion? -slowpokeiv 18:31, 31 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Ah, didn't think of that. I had a hard time thinking of independent drivers who are/were wildly popular with the fans, so those two sprung to my mind. I do like the idea of Owner/Crew Chief of a NASCAR team, and I hope we can get bios of former teams on here as well. Obviously, we don't do long-gone teams that didn't do much(Buz McCall's #96 team for example), but Junior Johnson's and Junie Donlavey's racing should be worthy of their own article. --D-Day 12:54, 1 August 2005 (UTC)


 * How about Team Owner's? I see Hendrick Motorsports and Roush Racing both have pages, I was thinking about adding a Gibbs page, maybe a Robert Yates Racing page, are they notable enough? I think "Joe Gibbs Racing" is referenced on at least 9 wiki pages, and their is a mention of his racing team on the Joe Gibbs page (mostly devoted to football.) Srcrowl 03:21, August 5, 2005 (UTC)


 * I made a Joe Gibbs Racing page on August 9. Just stub-length right now, but it's a start. --Golfhaus 13:40, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Notable Teams
I saw on the template info for the car owners that notable teams that are closed down are deserving of this template. Just for reference, what does count as a notable team? --D-Day 18:07, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure myself, but I guess very well-known teams could count. Definitely a team that won a championship could make use of the template. Actually, now that I look at it, the template isn't really suitable for former teams(since it has a list for current drivers). Possibly we could make a similar template for former teams? Dom Rem  | Yeah? 01:15, September 8, 2005 (UTC)
 * I'll look into it. I'm not experienced in the way of creating templates, but I can see if I can work any magic. Speaking of templates, thanks a ton for fixing the Evernham template for me. --D-Day 12:02, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Okay, I just finished the template. Have a look and see what else can be done. Template:NASCAR former team --D-Day 13:39, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
 * The template has officially been posted. You can find it at Travis Carter Motorsports. --D-Day 11:01, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Just thought I'd bring this back up for review. We should definitely set our notability standards straight, in case there are problems with something like Speedy Deletion. --D-Day(Wouldn't you like to be a pepper too?, on WHEELS?!) 16:45, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I think some combination of success, longevity and interestingness makes a driver notable, and I don't think we should try to set very specific criteria for that. For instance, slowpoke suggested pole winners or strong finishes, but if it's a driver who only raced a couple of races in Cup, won a pole or finished 3rd and didn't really do much else (not very likely now, but more so for the early days), then I would be strongly against an article for that person. However if a driver racks up the 20th place finishes over 15 years, then I think you could definitely make a case for his being notable. I agree with what was said about interesting trivia, as I'm pretty sure thats a guideline for notability in general on Wikipedia. I think we have to be even more strict about notability for teams and VERY strict about it for team owners, since most owners aren't in the public eye very much and there are so many of them. Basically, I would think the same criteria apply to teams/owners as to drivers except that you apply it more strictly. Recury 17:32, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I think that every driver who has ever raced in Cup, Busch, or CTS is notable for the fact that these are top series. WillC 19:33, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * True, but running just three races with average results probably isn't notable for us.(For us diehard NASCAR freaks, yes, but it might not fly with the rest of the community.) Heck the only reason J.T. Hayes gets an article is because, well um, I'll let you read the article and find out why. --D-Day(Wouldn't you like to be a pepper too?, on WHEELS?!) 19:42, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I know why! But that doesn't make him/her notable either....seriously, if you want Wikipedia to be comprehensive, you can't cut corners. Draw the line by not noting ARCA or ASA drivers...by the way, if Wikipedia can go to great lengths to list every pornstar ever (which it does), then I think all major national series drivers are worthy of inclusion. WillC 21:39, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I see your point. But I'd like to get more consensus before anything is decided. And while a person may not be notable for our standards on the NASCAR project, they may be for something else.(i.e. Al Unser, Jr.'s lone start probably wouldn't be worth an article if he was your average short track racer.) --D-Day(Wouldn't you like to be a pepper too?, on WHEELS?!) 21:55, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think Wikipedia needs to be comprehensive at all. Browsing through categories or hitting random page works much better if there aren't thousands of one or two sentence stubs to wade through while you are trying to find actual content. Wikipedia's guidelines on athlete notability agree more with Will than with me (if they are in a national, professional series then they deserve an article, basically), but I sincerely hope no one takes it upon themselves to just start making stub articles for every driver ever. If they are really notable, whoever is writing the article should be able to write at least one or two paragraphs about them, at the very least. Recury 23:44, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm an inclusionist. I think anyone that ever raced in a Cup, Busch or CTS race should potentially be included (but I'm not planning on taking on that project!). Include all teams that ever fielded a car in the Big 3. Include all ASA, ARCA, etc. champions, and people that were long-term members in those series. Every high school in the world is now getting an article, every radio station, etc., so why not every NASCAR-related person? Even famous NASCAR crew members like Chocolate Meyers. An article should be able to be more than a few sentences long though, because there needs to be some level of notability. Storage space and processor power should be cheap, so I don't see what's the big deal (I'm an IT student and former IT manager). These files are likely text files, which are quite compact. I look at Wikipedia as having the potential to be the greatest database ever created, which is why I'm so exciting about participating in Wikipedia. What percent of people use Wikipedia to browse random pages? I bet it's mainly Wikipediaholics. Royalbroil 01:01, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you everyone for your input so far. I, myself, would love to have an article about each and every driver/team in NASCAR on Wikipedia. My hesitancy lies in how far we can go. I've recently begun monitoring the new pages creation log, and deciding what should be speedied and so forth, and some of that stuff just is plain ol' not belonging on here. Is there a reason to create a two-sentence stub on a random driver who finished 29th at Charlotte in 1983, the only start of his career? I hope you see what I'm getting at. I think the standards Slowpokeiv brought up are quite reasonable, and that is what I go by when I create new NASCAR articles (Speaking of which, where is he anyway?). I hope to collect more input on this matter. Perhaps someone more versed in this matter can come along and give us a hand.  this unsigned comment was left by User:D-Day
 * I agree with D-Day that an article needs to be able to be more than a stub for it to be included. Just making a single start isn't enough. How about having at least as half-season's worth of starts (say 15)? A lower limit for road course ringers, although they would be notable from their home series. I've looked at the new pages logs a few times too, and I'm amazed at what junk is being added to wikipedia. I'm amazed at some of the things that are being kept, which is why I propose such a liberal policy. I don't think that we have been adding chaff to wikipedia. Slowpokeiv has made less than 50 edits since early Feb., but is making a few contributions. I've run across Slowpoke at WikiProject Wisconsin. Royalbroil 22:18, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * 15 races sounds reasonable to me. If they run less than that amount, they should have something else that's notable about them in order to be included. (Again, I present J.T. Hayes as Exhibit A). I have now created a subpage for discussing notability and such: User:D-Day/Proposed WikiProject NASCAR Standards. -- D -Day on WHEELS!!! 23:35, 26 May 2006 (UTC)