Wikipedia talk:WikiProject NASCAR/Archive 5

Former NASCAR Tracks template?

 * While editing Langhorne Speedway, I noticed that we have no good way of tagging it as a former NASCAR top-series speedway. Because USAC has no current champ-car series, the "USAC tracks" template lists the tracks that hosted USAC champ car races from 1956 through 1981.  I doubt we'll ever create articles for every half-mile dirt track that held a GN race in the 40s, 50s, and 60s, but it would be nice to have a box for those like Langhorne and Riverside (California) which clearly are notable.  It doesn't make sense to add this to the current-NASCAR-track template, but would one of you template-savvy people like to make a separate one for former NASCAR GN/Cup tracks?  Would this be better done as just a category?  Barno 17:19, 9 April 2007 (UTC)


 * make the template and i'll create the track entries. WillC 00:24, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I would say do all former tracks including the redlinks. I bet that someday someone will do an article on each of these tracks. RoyalbroilT : C 01:50, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * People have been adding former tracks to the "Defunct or inactive tracks" section of List of NASCAR race tracks. Tonight I've added Langhorne, Trenton, and the two last (1970) GN dirt tracks.  (Also I improved the first two articles and started stubs with sources for the second two.)  There are a bunch of relevant entries there if someone can start a template, like Template:USAC tracks. I believe Royalbroil or slowpokeiv has a list of all the ones that would be redlinked, either on the project's to-do page or in a user subpage. Barno 07:51, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Working on filling in that list with a new table (based partially on the layout used by F1, but with sortable tabs and other good stuff). All my references are only for Winston Cup, though - once I'm finished, I'd appreciate someone with more info going through and cleaning up any gaps. Duncan1800 (talk) 08:52, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Florida Photographic Collection images category on Commons
The Florida photographic images template is up for deletion on Wikimedia Commons since March 25th. I assume the deletion of the template would including deletion of the images. There has been no votes either for or against deletion. I uploaded quite a few old NASCAR images from the collection to Commons, and quite a few are here on the English Wikipedia. I have no rational argument against the nomination, so I haven't commented. I am going through all the images, and marking the images before 1923 with so they will be kept. RoyalbroilT : C 01:50, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Most wanted articles
There are currently 18 articles listed at WP:MWA that might be of interest to this project. --Sapphic 20:20, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Snell foundation article nominated for deletion

 * The article on the org that sets helmet standards, including those in past versions (and possibly the current version) of the NASCAR rulebook, has been nominated for deletion at Articles for deletion/Snell Memorial Foundation. Could someone please check whether the current rulebook still requires Snell certification?  If so, that article should have the wikiproject's tag added to its talk page.  Barno 17:19, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Standard width for driver infoboxes
There are numerous driver articles which contain multiple infoboxes, for the different series the driver has competed in. One issue is that the various driver infoboxes are different widths, which means that the infoboxes don't always "stack" neatly - contrast Olivier Gendebien (all infoboxes the same width) with Julian Bailey (different width infoboxes). The current infobox widths are:


 * 25 em: F1 driver, A1GP driver, V8 Supercar driver, WRC driver
 * 24 em: Former F1 driver, Former Champ Car driver, Former F3 driver
 * 22 em: BTCC driver, BTCC alumnus, DTM driver, Junior series driver, Pickup Truck driver, Infobox racing driver
 * 270px (which is very close to 24em): all the NASCAR driver infobox templates

I propose that we standardise the width of all driver infoboxes at 24em, to improve the visual appearance of articles containing multiple infoboxes. Please leave comments here. DH85868993 14:23, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree that it would look better to have all motorsport infoboxes be a standard width. Probably it would be worthwhile to standardize team owner, etc. infoboxes to the same width, since some people like Junior Johnson, Richard Childress, and Alan Kulwicki are noted both as drivers and as team owners.  I don't care which width is selected; a review of other sporting projects' infobox standards might be useful, since there's no "Wikipedia:Infobox" guideline page.  Once a motorsport-wide standard is selected, it should be added to the project page for WikiProject NASCAR.  Barno 14:44, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Following broad support at WP:MOTOR, all motorsport people infoboxes have now been changed to a standard width of 24em. -- DH85868993 12:04, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yay! Thanks. Barno 07:40, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Merge of Drafting (racing) with slipstream
A merge request for the two articles is started on the talk page for Drafting (racing). I have proposed a partial merge. Please join the discussion. Royal broil 15:07, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I have also rewritten Bump and run (auto racing) from scratch. Please help improve it. Royal broil  15:52, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
 * In looking through some old Stock Car Racing issues I've recovered, I saw at least one article from the Nineties on each of those two topics. I'll try to find both and add information and citations this week.Barno 02:15, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I found the SCR cover story on drafting and made some additions and a few revisions to Drafting (racing). I think there will be enough before we're done to justify keeping this separately from Slipstream.  I'll try to locate a bump-and-run article I saw.  Barno 01:26, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I also added this project's tag to the talk page for Drafting (racing). It had only the WikiProject Cycling tag.  Barno 01:28, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I did some minor cleanup. Great job! Royal broil  01:30, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

AlexNewArtBot screening new articles for WikiProject NASCAR
I have used the AlexNewArtBot to screen new articles for WikiProject Wisconsin with great success for the past few weeks. Here is the results that the bot gives for WikiProject Wisconsin. I have requested here that the bot's owner Alex have the bot screen for new articles for WikiProject NASCAR. I have setup some initial criteria based on the word "NASCAR" and all major NASCAR series. You can join the discussion here if you have additional comments or input. Royal broil 02:21, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

User:AlexNewArtBot - New Article Bot
Hi, I am in the trial runs of the User:AlexNewArtBot (see Bots/Requests_for_approval/AlexNewArtBot). The bot reads all the new articles for a day and puts suspected NASCAR-related articles into User:AlexNewArtBot/NASCARSearchResult, the articles are suppose to be manually put into the portal page and/or removed if irrelevant. Or whatever you want to do with them.

The list of rules are in User:AlexNewArtBot/NASCAR, there is also the log on the User:AlexNewArtBot/NASCARLog explaining the rules that sent an article to the search results (the log is cleared every day, so try to look into the history of the log). Please contact me if you are interested in the fine tuning of the rules

That is all. Any suggestions are welcome.
 * I am pleased with the initial performance of the bot, and I left a thank you message on Alex's talk page. We can use this tool to watch and tag the new incoming articles about NASCAR to our WikiProject. It found the new Bruton Smith article that I wrote. I have submitted Smith's article for consideration for DYK, and I hope to see it listed soon. Royal broil  03:46, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * This bot has been quite reliable and excellent. I urge everyone to help me watch the bots' results. Royal broil  13:02, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Frank Kreyer
Kreyer spoke to the crowd at Dell Raceway Park (DRP) this Saturday (I was there), and he said that he is planning to attempt 4 Busch Series races this year, including Milwaukee and Gateway (he said all four but I forgot two of them). Should I create an article for him based on his future attempts, or should I wait until he attempts? He is 1/3 owner of the DRP. He has his primary and show cars built. He will be giving rides to lucky DRP fans in a second seat in the show car - AT FULL SPEED - starting next weekend. Royal broil 00:39, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Looks like he already made a truck race in March so he should be OK to make an article on. Recury 13:31, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The same standard applies to this case as with any other topic. When there is enough non-trivial coverage in multiple reliable sources to write an encyclopedia article or at least a good stub that's not a substub, that's when an article should be started.  A Google search shows mainly directory listings (ASA driver listings, Craftsman Truck driver listings, Racing-Reference list of stats) and press releases (Culver's Racing announcements).  I see a mention for winning a support race at an ASA meet where he didn't win the feature.  Further down than I've searched, are there any articles showing he won ASA races or other events more notable than WP:LOCAL weekly features?  If all that exists is "track co-owner", "ran a few Truck and ASA races", and "announced plans for a few Busch attempts", then it's hard to justify an article here.  The Busch Series plans fall under "Wikipedia is not a crystal ball"; but you might find enough coverage for what he's actually accomplished if you look deeper than I have so far (first three pages of the Google search).  In disagreement with Recury, I don't think that "ran one Craftsman Truck race" is sufficient, since he didn't get featured coverage for winning the race or doing something else more notable than being one of 36 participants.  Barno 13:57, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, notability is much more lax than that. Per talk explained here, consensus is that "[c]ompetitors who have played in a fully professional league..." 1 (and CTS is considered fully professional) is notable enough for the WP, hence, valid article. -slowpokeiv 00:43, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Since he had already participated in a CTS race, I started his article. I didn't know he had a NASCAR start. Thanks for you input. Royal broil  01:41, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Motorsport Library
I've made a suggestion at WikiProject Motorsport for a list of hardcopy references and who holds them, to help with referencing articles. This was prompted by the realisation that I have access to quite a lot of material which I'm not currently using. Please comment here. Cheers. 4u1e 16:45, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Memorable races at Talladega
I don't like this article. What should we do about it? It looks like original research and opinion. It is unsourced. Royal broil 21:55, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It was split off the main Talladega article by User:PYLrulz. I see you haven't asked that editor about the sourcing; try his/her talkpage first, or that of the editor(s) who put that section's content into the parent article.  The track's article Talladega Superspeedway is supported only by two refs not relevant to memorable races, and by external links to the track's website and to the Talladega pages of the NASCAR and Jayski websites and a directory site.  That's not independent secondary sources, but I expect that digging would find newspaper and magazine accounts that the listed events occurred, some of them including the POV or questionable-with-regard-to-WP:BLP descriptions.  I doubt you'll find multiple independent "memorable" descriptions for these ones.  Normally such a list would need copyvio-checking against the track or NASCAR-public-relations releases; but this selection clearly isn't what NASCAR nor the track would select.  I hate to say this about such a detailed and well-organized article that someone(s) put a lot of time into, but if nobody who edited it can show that it meets WP:ATT, we'll have to nominate it at WP:AFD where it'll probably get deleted.  Will someone take it for userfication, if it isn't copyvio?  Barno 04:07, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Category: racecar drivers
Hi NASCARians. Over at WP:F1 we decided that all the members of Category:Formula One drivers should also be included in the the relevant [Category: racecar drivers]. You may wish to consider whether you want to apply the same principle to all the members of Category:NASCAR drivers. -- DH85868993 09:16, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, they should be. I thought we were doing that actually, but glancing through the NASCAR category I'm not seeing very many that are in both. Might be something that could be fixed with AWB, I don't know. Recury 14:45, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I would expect the AWB bot to be able to do it. I'll wait a bit for more talk before I go for it. I'm away from home (and my AWB) for the next day anyhow.


 * It should be easiest to come up with a list of NASCAR drivers NOT from the U.S. I know Juan Pablo Montoya and Ron Fellows. I know there was someone else from Canada that I saw recently, and I think he won a Cup race. Royal broil  03:26, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I can't remember his name, but a Canadian hooked up with Junior Johnson around 1972-3 to run a Cup car with Carling Black Label sponsorship. Got killed while testing or practicing, not in a race, I think.  Also there are Busch/Truck drivers from Mexico (Carlos Contreras regularly, some others on occasion like the Mexico City Busch race) and Australia (Tasmania).  But almost everyone in Category:NASCAR drivers can be botted into Category:American racecar drivers. Barno 03:42, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Open for image requests
Hi, I went to the 2007 Quaker Steak & Lube 200 truck race and Nextel All-star qualifying at Lowes Motor Speedway. I will be attending the 2007 Coca-cola 600 race. Any specific requests for images? I have a 10Megapixel camera with a 75-300mm zoom lens. I sit near the exit of pit road for the 600. --edgester 12:51, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Sounds AWESOMEly fun! It would be great if you could get an image of every single car! I know, I got big eyes. I've uploaded only a few 2007 images from a flickr friend of mine. Two or three cars on a picture should be fine. Most articles don't have a 2007 picture. A picture of the cars lined up two wide for the start or a restart would be nice to use as the image for this WikiProject. A broad picture of pit lane could be helpful, but you might not have a good angle. I always get pictures early before sunset, because I get junk photos after dark with the insufficient light. Thanks for the offer, and most importantly HAVE FUN! Royal broil  14:09, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

How do you like to categorise your series?
I'm in the (tedious) process of adding DEFAULTSORT to season articles that have inadvertently been categorised by year instead of by first initial. The question is, do you guys want all NASCAR seasons to be listed under N for NASCAR or C, B, etc? I thought that listing them by Craftsman, Busch, etc. would make more sense but it's your call. Adrian  M. H.  22:25, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I would say "N" for NASCAR NEXTEL Cup, "B" for the Busch Series, and "C" for "Craftsman Truck Series. An WP:AWB would help immensely! Royal broil  19:25, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks RB. I probably won't be using AWB (which is IE-only, I think) so I'll just do a few years at a time over the next week or so. Keep an eye out for any that I might miss. Adrian   M. H.  21:19, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * AWB is independent of the browser, for it is a separate application. You do need to be logged into Wikipedia with your browser. It's your choice. Royal broil  05:58, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Colored car numbers in results
Not sure if this has been brought up or not, but I recently looked at 2007 Indianapolis 500 and noticed all the car numbers have the color of the number and the car (much like you would see on TV), and I thought it looked pretty good. Would that be considered bad practice if we started doing that or does anyone else agree that it looks good and we should start doing so as well?  Bsroiaadn Talk 23:18, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
 * While I like the way it looks, I don't think it's worth the extra effort (which would be fairly significant). Royal broil  20:31, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Category for NASCAR announcers
Is there a precedent for a category on NASCAR announcers? I notice that there is no category to link Chris Economaki and the new article on Ken Squier (to mention some old-school announcers) to NASCAR. Royal broil 20:31, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * While we don't need to boost every self-promoting bleached hairdo who gets an on-air spot, I do think we should have this category for Economaki, Squier, Berggren, DW, and the few others who are genuinely noted. Barring Howard Cosell, I don't know whether announcers in other sports are as notable as these.  In the old days where radio was the primary form of coverage, they were a bigger part of the fan's experience in most sports than they are today. Barno 13:38, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Seasons being moved
Most of the pages before race seasons have recently been moved by Soxrock. I highly question this decision, as this the word "in" is used in similar articles for other sports. That was the reason behind the move. --D-Day 17:50, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * You mean that what was 2007 in NASCAR Nextel Cup has been moved to 2007 NASCAR Nextel Cup Series. This move away from the longstanding method was not discussed here at the WikiProject. I left a message for User:Soxrock to explain why he/she made this decision for this WikiProject without discussion. Royal broil  20:21, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I made this move because I don't see why it said something like "2007 in NASCAR Busch Series. That is a single series. In something like 1999 in baseball, that's general for numerous global baseball leagues and news. The Busch series is a single series, therefore I saw no need to have the in in there. Soxrock 20:41, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I may not be a part of this wikiproject, but I think it needs to be said that you are not an authority on Wikipedia. If you wanted to make major changes like this, you need to get a consensus to see if the change is worth it or not.  You're not the only one editing wikipedia, you know. Dknights411 21:01, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I, too, am not part of this project. But I thought I should bring something up about Soxrock.  He is a user who as, on numerous occasions, ignored warnings that he was violating WP:NOT.  He did something similar to Chicago White Sox, who for the record are a baseball team.  He removed info from that page to make a "History of the Chicago White Sox" article because that's what was done to Chicago Bears, a football team.  He did this without any discussion because he felt this would improve the article.


 * I'm impartial on the NASCAR discussion, but the reason I came here was to alert everybody that Soxrock is the kind of user who goes out on their own, acting like Wikipedia belongs to him. Even if what he does is good and does improve the article, Soxrock always does things with no permission, without discussion.  -- Ksy92003  (talk) 21:46, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * This same user recently decided on his own to do something similar to this with baseball season articles. (See here and here for recent examples.) Making wholesale changes like this without first discussing his ideas with the community seems to be his MO. This pattern of behavior has now disrupted articles under the purview of at least three different WP projects. He's also habitually in violation of WP:NOT. (See discussion here for just one recent example.) I'm not sure what can be done to rein him in. --Sanfranman59 01:43, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * What Soxrox did in the past has nothing to do what he did now. He was just being bold; something is encouraged on Wikipedia.++ aviper2k7 ++ 06:29, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Moving articles that are the core of a WikProject without discussion is beyond bold - it is disrespectful to WikiProject members and wreckless in my opinion. I wouldn't rename the main article on, say, Wisconsin's highway system, without discussing it at WikiProject Wisconsin so you have a chance to disagree. Royal broil  13:53, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Discussion on naming standard
I think we should discuss all options since it has been changed. I looked at the children of Category:2007 in sports, and all are 2007 in xxxx. The majority of the children of Category:2007 in motor racing are 2007 in xxxx, but there is some variability. I think we should change it back to the way it was before the move. What do the other WikiProject NASCAR members think? Royal broil 03:17, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not a WP:NASCAR member, but I have some information to share. At WP:F1 we have a category called "2007 in Formula One" but the article about the 2007 season is called 2007 Formula One season (i.e. with no "in"). So, for what it's worth, I support the charge Soxrock made, but agree that it should have been discussed here first. DH85868993 02:59, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not a very active NASCAR member (edit one driver), but I think it's a good move. "2007 in NASCAR Nextel Cup" sounds awkward. NASCAR.com refers to it as "2007 Nextel Cup Series" so based on a reliable source, I say we should call it by its given name.++ aviper2k7 ++ 06:29, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I actually also do believe that the moves that Soxrock made shouldn't be undone. It makes more sense for it to be called that.  I probably would've done the moves without discussion, also.  Most articles, like 2007 Major League Baseball season, 2006-07 NHL season, 2006-07 NBA season, etc. don't follow the "in" format because they are about a particular season.  In this NASCAR discussion, it should be called "2007 Nextel Cup Series" because previously, "2007 in NASCAR Nextel Cup" assumes that it's referring to a variety of seasons in the Nextel Cup, when in reality there only is one.  If there were an article like "2007 in Auto Racing," this would include Indycar, NASCAR, Truck Racing, etc., because it's in; it would include different styles.  But the Nextel Cup is only NASCAR racing, so it should reflect that in its title by titling it "2007 Nextel Cup Series;" it's one particular racing season for one particular style of racing.  -- Ksy92003  (talk) 13:14, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Good points. I'm fine with it either way. Royal broil  13:53, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd prefer putting "season" at the end though. 2007 NASCAR NEXTEL Cup Series sounds just as awkward. --D-Day 18:47, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed with D-Day Jsydave 08:29, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Keith Coleman Racing
This page is in need of major reconstruction. The page bewilders me, and is probably the worst Wikipedia page I've ever seen. Casey14 01:01, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It seems like it is copied, or vandalized. Casey14 01:09, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Note to all editors: If you see that IP editing that article, revert immediately. He doesn't seem to be responding to his talk page. --D-Day 11:47, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * This person has continued editing the article under a different IP. The information they are adding is potentially libelous, and should be alerted to an admin if this keeps up. --D-Day 18:46, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I have added it to my watchlist. That kind of stuff needs to be removed forcefully and immediately. Thanks for the tip, guys. Royal broil  02:29, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The IP just got blocked for violating the 3 revert rule. I reported them to WP:AIV. They have been using multiple IP addresses, so we need to keep watching, especially starting on Friday night. Royal broil  02:48, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Main Article
I've noticed the talk page has gotten to be pretty long. If someone knows how to archive that, I'd appreciate it.

Also, it's come to my attention that NASCAR had a modified series and a roadster series before the Strictly Stock series began. If someone has more information on that, feel free to add it. I believe there may have been a GT series at some point. Perhaps we could add some information about defunct series or maybe a new article about them. Does anyone have information on this?Mustang6172 07:48, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Would you provide a link to your source(s)? I knew about the modified series. Royal broil  12:12, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The roadster series ("NASCAR Speedway Division") wasn't before Strictly Stock; it was under discussion in the late 1950s, and ran Daytona at the track's first year in '59. There was also a Convertible Division in the Fifties.  NASCAR had no true GT series but there was the Grand American Series in the late Sixties for Mustang/Camaro/etc cars with rules similar to Cup except sizes; Grand American ran both road courses and ovals.  Yes, we need some sources to better document these series. Barno 15:30, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * This article mentions a roadster division before Strictly Stock. "France's idea of a Strictly Stock division for 1949 was a new concept after NASCAR sanctioned Modified and Roadster races the previous year."Mustang6172 21:43, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The Grand American Series the one that they ran in the late 1960s and early 1970s with smaller pony cars. They occasionally ran against the Cup cars - and when they won their win wasn't counted as a win. It causes Bobby Allison's article to have an asterick with either 84 or 86 wins. See Bobby_Allison. We could use the section from the article to form an article. There should be an article. If we did it thoroughly we could come up with a nice DYK article "Did You Know" ... that two of Bobby Allison's top level NASCAR wins are disputed because he won them using Grand American Series cars? We could have a list of Grand American drivers who won against the Cup cars if we can find source(s). It would be nice exposure for the WikiProject! Royal broil  23:43, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The Craftsman Truck Series website's article linked by Mustang6172 does indeed refer to Roadster racing from 1948, but I haven't seen it mentioned in a variety of sources that do mention the '48 Modified races. It might very well have been just one race somewhere that ran that class and Bill France promoted a special.  We need to find harder sources than one press release so we can reconcile this claim with other records.  I agree with Royalbroil that the Grand Am part of Allison's record would make a good Did You Know if we can document it well. Barno 14:30, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I was expanding the Bill France, Sr. article from my NASCAR book (The Unauthorized NASCAR Fan Guide by Bill Fleischman and Al Pearce, 1999.) when I came across information to substantiate that Roadsters and Modified were part of France's original plan. I added it to the main article.  Royal broil  13:02, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Infield Parking
User:Greg.harvey created an article about the social networking website, simular to MySpace. I am unfamiliar with the website. What does everyone thing about its notability? The notability of the website has been questioned. It came up on the WikiProject's new article list from the bot: User:AlexNewArtBot/NASCARSearchResult. Royal broil 23:31, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Wow, I haven't logged in to Wikipedia for quite a while, so it seems I've missed everything and my page is gone already. :-(
 * Oh well. I must say I'm surprised that a site with 40,000+ members generated *no* interest at all as a discussion topic. I can only guess those folks aren't actively on Wikipedia - wrong demographic, I guess. I know they're active, because I still get MySpace messages, invites, messages on Facebook, even LinkedIn requests from Infield Parking NASCAR fans. Be that as it may, I'm no longer involved with the project, and while I do still believe it warrants a Wiki entry, I'm in no mood for fighting for it. Inshala, as they say in Arabia. I've got bigger fish to fry.
 * Greg (talk) 12:03, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Mexican and Canadian NASCAR cars
There are some articles about NASCAR Canadian Tire Series drivers, and maybe some from the NASCAR Mexico Corona Series and NASCAR Mexico T4 Series. We need to decide how to bring them into the fold with the other NASCAR drivers. Should someone add all 3 series to the driver infobox? Do we only count their starts since NASCAR started sanctioning the series, or should we count their starts in previous names for the series, say, the CASCAR Super Series in their total? I also was having a discussion on the NASCAR Canadian Tire Series' talk page about what the start date should be: 1981 or 2007. Royal broil 19:19, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Well I don't think the Busch East and West Series have been added to the driver infobox, so these new series should probably be kept separate if those are. If these series are added to the infobox I think that the results from the series previous names should be included, since as far as I know they have not done any changes to any of these series yet except the names. Toledo47 20:12, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Standard race track infobox
There is a discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Motorsport about creating a standard infobox for all race tracks regardless of their sanctioning body or type. Please join the discussion there to ensure that all of our concerns are met. Royal broil 13:30, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * A new infobox for tracks has been created at WP:MOTOR, and all tracks need to use this new infobox. It is Motorsport venue. It should have all of the same fields as the NASCAR track infobox. It has the flexibility to have up to 4 tracks at the same facility. It also can include the all-time track record. Please use it on all articles, and you can change all existing articles (otherwise I will do it when I have time). Royal broil  05:10, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Frank Kimmel article evaluation
I've just added a lot of references and done some cleanup to ARCA driver Frank Kimmel. Could anyone browse over it and evaluate if it is now Start class ? Guroadrunner 06:13, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Definitely start class, so I changed the talk page. I normally dont' discuss the change to start class when I remove the stub tag. I think that the change from stub class to start class shouldn't require an independent evaluation, for it's mainly based on the number of characters in the article. Royal broil  06:37, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Four majors?
What "four majors" are you referring to in Bobby Allison's page? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mynameisphil (talk • contribs).
 * I looked it up on the Buddy Baker article, and it listed the Southern 500, Daytona 500, Aaron's 499, and the Coca-Cola 600. Those were the four major races when Allison raced NASCAR, so it sounds reasonable to me. I added it to Allison's article. Royal broil  02:41, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd be cautious here because that's not an official title. In fact, the Winston Million article refers to them as "crown jewls".Mustang6172 05:10, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. GN/Cup has never had a formal set of major races comparable to the PGA Tour's "major" tournaments.  Also, neither of the annual Talladega races was ever called the Aaron's 499 when Baker or Allison ran them; and the longer Charlotte race was named the World 600 when it was most widely considered major.  Today, the Indianapolis race is considered more prestigious than the Darlington, Talladega, or Charlotte events; there were multiple mentions of this in the nationwide news services in the last week.  Barno 14:45, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Infobox

 * From Wikipedia talk:WikiProject NASCAR/Standards which now redirects to WT:NASCAR. Airplaneman   ✈  Review? 03:20, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Was there ever any discussion for moving to a new racetrack infobox? I see someone is trying to unify all types of racing under the same box. This may not be advisable as the international box fits international races better with mileage in km etc... JohnnyBGood   t   c  VIVA! 22:47, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yep see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_NASCAR. AlexJ 23:04, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Renaming Category:NASCAR terms and Category:Auto racing terms
Someone has nominated to rename them to "NASCAR terminology" and "Auto racing terminology" / "Motor racing terminology"/ "Motorsport terminology". Please join the discussion here: Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_August_7. Royal broil 22:03, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Article I've nominated for deletion
Discussion here. Davnel03 12:44, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Template:NASCAR driver results legend
I want you guys to check this out and see what you guys think. I created this before I joined the group so...if you have anything tell me. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fanofspeed (talk • contribs).
 * Thank you for bringing it up. Top 5 and Top 10 finishes in NASCAR should get different colors since they are considered to be in different categories by most fans. I wonder if second and third place finishes should match the colors used by other motorsports WikiProjects (1st gold/2nd silver/3rd bronze). Should they instead get a generic Top 5 color since second and third place is not considered special to NASCAR or fans, only merely a Top 5 finish? It's nothing like podium finishes in Formula One or other open wheel categories. Royal broil  14:56, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I would say just highlight the Top 5 and Top 10 finishes. —  Brother Flounder  23:54, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Coil Bind Article
Love it or hate it, coil bind setups have become very influential over the last few years. Should we start an article on this, or is there an existing one this could be added to?Mustang6172 02:46, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Please describe a coil bind setup. Is it something that binds or restricts a coil/spring from expanding/contracting? What articles might link to the proposed article? Royal broil  03:13, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Coil bind setups utilize very soft front springs and very stiff rear springs to control the pitch attitude of the body. As the car approaches the end of a straightaway, the downforce generated by the body of the car should lower the sprung weight until the coil springs bind to the point where they can no longer travel (hence the name). The goal of coil bind setups is to keep the front valence (or splitter if applicable) of the car as low to the ground as possible to create an aerea of low pressure under the car (similar to ground effects). While this has made the cars faster, it's also made them more sensitive to dirty air. It's easy to imagine the NEXTEL Cup article linking to this as well as the Car of Tomorrow article. It's also possible that it would be linked from the Busch Series and Craftsman Truck Series articles. It should fit into the category of NASCAR Terminology.Mustang6172 03:41, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Good explanation. I knew that they were running soft front springs and stiff rear springs, but I didn't know why until now or what it was called. Go for writing the article if you have any reliable sources. What you have here is an excellent start. Royal broil  04:20, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I've written the article here.Mustang6172 23:07, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Looks good to me! Royal broil  05:17, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

If you like Bobby Allison --
-- Then you might want to add more information to the newly-created DiGard Motorsports page. It's about five hours old (I made it) and in good shape regarding Darrell Waltrip's time there, but it's very short about Bobby and Donnie Allison. Guroadrunner 07:19, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

WP:PROD nominations

 * 24 August Team Johnson Motorsports --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me ) 18:54, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

User:Jaranda/Notabilty (sports)
Hi, I strongly recommed this project to give your notabilty guidelines for a new notabilty proposal that I'm creating on my userpage, once it is completed, I will move to wikipedia namespace for the community to decide. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 23:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Your current proposed notability standards are a lot more stringent that what has been proposed here and outcomes of AFD discussions. WikiProject NASCAR is not the best place to discuss new guidelines. The proper place to discuss is at WikiProject Motorsport, so ALL motorsports can be determined. I will copy your comment there. Royal broil  06:57, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Driver Career Results
I would really appreciate it if I had some people help out with the driver results. This is for all of their career races. To see an example go to Juan Pablo Montoya, Aric Almirola, or Regan Smith. These all have the results near the bottom of the page. If you are interested or have any question, please contact me. Fanofspeed 20:25, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Before you do this for every driver, which is a MAJOR undertaking, let's reach a consensus on how to implement it. The results at the bottom of the page is very tight, tiny and it goes way off the screen on any monitor other than a widescreen monitor. I like the concept of being able to list all of the results, but the current method doesn't work very well. At WikiProject Motorsport, the parent WikiProject for WikiProject NASCAR, we have discussed doing something like this for all drivers, but we decided not to pursuit it because of the difficulty dealing with NASCAR's 30+ races per season (Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Motorsport). Please propose a different way of dealing with the space issues. There has got to be a better way. Royal broil  01:25, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi, I'm not a member of the project, but I've had a lot to do with the format of the results tables over at WP:F1. One approach would be to have two rows per season, either with:
 * {| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center; font-size:95%"

! Year ! Team ! No. ! Make ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! NNCC ! Points !rowspan="4"| 2006 !rowspan="4"| Chip Ganassi Racing !rowspan="4"| Dodge ! 1 ! 2 ! 3 ! 4 ! 5 ! 6 ! 7 ! 8 ! 9 ! 10 ! 11 ! 12 ! 13 ! 14 ! 15 ! 16 ! 17 ! 18 ! 19 ! 20 !rowspan="4"| 69th !rowspan="4"| 61 ! 21 ! 22 ! 23 ! 24 ! 25 ! 26 ! 27 ! 28 ! 29 ! 30 ! 31 ! 32 ! 33 ! 34 ! 35 ! 36 ! ! ! ! 34 !rowspan="4"| 2007 !rowspan="4"| Chip Ganassi Racing !rowspan="4"| Dodge ! 1 ! 2 ! 3 ! 4 ! 5 ! 6 ! 7 ! 8 ! 9 ! 10 ! 11 ! 12 ! 13 ! 14 ! 15 ! 16 ! 17 ! 18 ! 19 ! 20 !rowspan="4"| 18th* !rowspan="4"| 2375* 19 26 22 5 32 16 8 33 31 26 23 28 31 20 43 1 19 32 15 2 ! 21 ! 22 ! 23 ! 24 ! 25 ! 26 ! 27 ! 28 ! 29 ! 30 ! 31 ! 32 ! 33 ! 34 ! 35 ! 36 ! ! ! ! 16 39 26 17
 * rowspan="4" bgcolor="#000000" style="color: red;"|30
 * DAY
 * CAL
 * LSV
 * ATL
 * BRI
 * MAR
 * TEX
 * PHO
 * TAL
 * RIC
 * DAR
 * LOW
 * DOV
 * POC
 * MIC
 * INF
 * DY2
 * CHI
 * NHA
 * PO2
 * PO2
 * IND
 * GLN
 * MI2
 * BR2
 * CA2
 * RI2
 * NH2
 * DV2
 * KAN
 * TL2
 * LW2
 * MR2
 * AT2
 * TX2
 * PH2
 * bgcolor="#FFFF2F"| HOM
 * bgcolor="#FFFF2F"| HOM
 * rowspan="4" bgcolor="#000000" style="color: red;"|42
 * bgcolor="#DFFFDF"| DAY
 * bgcolor="#DFFFDF"| DAY
 * bgcolor="#CFCFFF"| CAL
 * bgcolor="#CFCFFF"| LSV
 * bgcolor="#DFDFDF"| ATL
 * bgcolor="#FCD765"| BRI
 * bgcolor="#DFFFDF"| MAR
 * bgcolor="#FFDF9F"| TEX
 * bgcolor="#FCD765"| PHO
 * bgcolor="#FCD765"| TAL
 * bgcolor="#CFCFFF"| RIC
 * bgcolor="#CFCFFF"| DAR
 * bgcolor="#CFCFFF"| LOW
 * bgcolor="#FCD765"| DOV
 * bgcolor="#DFFFDF"| POC
 * bgcolor="#FFFF2F"| MIC
 * bgcolor="#FFFFBF"| INF
 * bgcolor="#DFFFDF"| NHA
 * bgcolor="#FCD765"| DY2
 * bgcolor="#DFFFDF"| CHI
 * bgcolor="#DFDFDF"| IND
 * bgcolor="#DFFFDF"| PO2
 * bgcolor="#DFFFDF"| PO2
 * bgcolor="#FFFF2F"| GLN
 * bgcolor="#CFCFFF"| MI2
 * bgcolor="#DFFFDF"| BR2
 * CA2
 * RI2
 * NH2
 * DV2
 * KAN
 * TL2
 * LW2
 * MR2
 * AT2
 * TX2
 * PH2
 * HOM
 * }
 * }
 * }
 * }
 * }


 * or without:


 * {| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center; font-size:95%"

! Year ! Team ! No. ! Make ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! NNCC ! Points !rowspan="2"| 2006 !rowspan="2"| Chip Ganassi Racing !rowspan="2"| Dodge !rowspan="2"| 69th !rowspan="2"| 61 34 !rowspan="2"| 2007 !rowspan="2"| Chip Ganassi Racing !rowspan="2"| Dodge 19 26 22 5 32 16 8 33 31 26 23 28 31 20 43 1 19 32 15 2 !rowspan="2"| 18th* !rowspan="2"| 2375* 16 39 26 17
 * rowspan="2" bgcolor="#000000" style="color: red;"|30
 * DAY
 * CAL
 * LSV
 * ATL
 * BRI
 * MAR
 * TEX
 * PHO
 * TAL
 * RIC
 * DAR
 * LOW
 * DOV
 * POC
 * MIC
 * INF
 * DY2
 * CHI
 * NHA
 * PO2
 * IND
 * GLN
 * MI2
 * BR2
 * CA2
 * RI2
 * NH2
 * DV2
 * KAN
 * TL2
 * LW2
 * MR2
 * AT2
 * TX2
 * PH2
 * bgcolor="#FFFF2F"| HOM
 * bgcolor="#FFFF2F"| HOM
 * rowspan="2" bgcolor="#000000" style="color: red;"|42
 * bgcolor="#DFFFDF"| DAY
 * bgcolor="#CFCFFF"| CAL
 * bgcolor="#CFCFFF"| LSV
 * bgcolor="#DFDFDF"| ATL
 * bgcolor="#FCD765"| BRI
 * bgcolor="#DFFFDF"| MAR
 * bgcolor="#FFDF9F"| TEX
 * bgcolor="#FCD765"| PHO
 * bgcolor="#FCD765"| TAL
 * bgcolor="#CFCFFF"| RIC
 * bgcolor="#CFCFFF"| DAR
 * bgcolor="#CFCFFF"| LOW
 * bgcolor="#FCD765"| DOV
 * bgcolor="#DFFFDF"| POC
 * bgcolor="#FFFF2F"| MIC
 * bgcolor="#FFFFBF"| INF
 * bgcolor="#DFFFDF"| NHA
 * bgcolor="#FCD765"| DY2
 * bgcolor="#DFFFDF"| CHI
 * bgcolor="#DFDFDF"| IND
 * bgcolor="#DFFFDF"| PO2
 * bgcolor="#DFFFDF"| PO2
 * bgcolor="#FFFF2F"| GLN
 * bgcolor="#CFCFFF"| MI2
 * bgcolor="#DFFFDF"| BR2
 * CA2
 * RI2
 * NH2
 * DV2
 * KAN
 * TL2
 * LW2
 * MR2
 * AT2
 * TX2
 * PH2
 * HOM
 * }
 * round numbers. (I prefer "without" personally). DH85868993 05:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * }
 * round numbers. (I prefer "without" personally). DH85868993 05:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * }
 * round numbers. (I prefer "without" personally). DH85868993 05:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

That's a lot better. I can support either option. I too prefer no numbers. The only problem that I see is that it doesn't work very well with other racing series like F1/CART, but I don't see how that could be avoided. The numbers in other series, like the ones on Montoya's page, wouldn't line up with this style. I think we could overlook that problem. Are you okay with this suggestion, Fanofspeed? Royal broil 05:55, 31 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Honestly, although these tables are nice, I don't think that this is the right place for it. You can get the exact same information by going over to Racing Reference.  It'll also clutter the pages unnecessarily.  I think that the info provided in the driver infoboxes is sufficient.  —  Brother  Flounder  22:46, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I like having it with two rows. I prefer it with the numbers because it helps with the order of the races. But the Other way, without numbers, is cleaner. So... Would it be better if we had the frist three letters of the race title though. The first letters of the track is nice because it is constant, I think. Fanofspeed 01:48, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The letter should be three that make sense, not necessarily the first three. I like using the abbreviations used in other professional sports like Major League Baseball, the NFL or the NBA (if applicable). Royal broil  14:34, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

What about having the numbers only in the header row:


 * {| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center; font-size:95%"

!rowspan="2"| Year !rowspan="2"| Team !rowspan="2"| No. !rowspan="2"| Make ! 1 ! 2 ! 3 ! 4 ! 5 ! 6 ! 7 ! 8 ! 9 ! 10 ! 11 ! 12 ! 13 ! 14 ! 15 ! 16 ! 17 ! 18 ! 19 ! 20 !rowspan="2"| NNCC !rowspan="2"| Points ! 21 ! 22 ! 23 ! 24 ! 25 ! 26 ! 27 ! 28 ! 29 ! 30 ! 31 ! 32 ! 33 ! 34 ! 35 ! 36 ! ! ! ! !rowspan="2"| 2006 !rowspan="2"| Chip Ganassi Racing !rowspan="2"| Dodge !rowspan="2"| 69th !rowspan="2"| 61 34 !rowspan="2"| 2007 !rowspan="2"| Chip Ganassi Racing !rowspan="2"| Dodge 19 26 22 5 32 16 8 33 31 26 23 28 31 20 43 1 19 32 15 2 !rowspan="2"| 18th* !rowspan="2"| 2375* 16 39 26 17 Mitanker101 14:51, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * rowspan="2" bgcolor="#000000" style="color: red;"|30
 * DAY
 * CAL
 * LSV
 * ATL
 * BRI
 * MAR
 * TEX
 * PHO
 * TAL
 * RIC
 * DAR
 * LOW
 * DOV
 * POC
 * MIC
 * INF
 * DY2
 * CHI
 * NHA
 * PO2
 * IND
 * GLN
 * MI2
 * BR2
 * CA2
 * RI2
 * NH2
 * DV2
 * KAN
 * TL2
 * LW2
 * MR2
 * AT2
 * TX2
 * PH2
 * bgcolor="#FFFF2F"| HOM
 * bgcolor="#FFFF2F"| HOM
 * rowspan="2" bgcolor="#000000" style="color: red;"|42
 * bgcolor="#DFFFDF"| DAY
 * bgcolor="#CFCFFF"| CAL
 * bgcolor="#CFCFFF"| LSV
 * bgcolor="#DFDFDF"| ATL
 * bgcolor="#FCD765"| BRI
 * bgcolor="#DFFFDF"| MAR
 * bgcolor="#FFDF9F"| TEX
 * bgcolor="#FCD765"| PHO
 * bgcolor="#FCD765"| TAL
 * bgcolor="#CFCFFF"| RIC
 * bgcolor="#CFCFFF"| DAR
 * bgcolor="#CFCFFF"| LOW
 * bgcolor="#FCD765"| DOV
 * bgcolor="#DFFFDF"| POC
 * bgcolor="#FFFF2F"| MIC
 * bgcolor="#FFFFBF"| INF
 * bgcolor="#DFFFDF"| NHA
 * bgcolor="#FCD765"| DY2
 * bgcolor="#DFFFDF"| CHI
 * bgcolor="#DFDFDF"| IND
 * bgcolor="#DFFFDF"| PO2
 * bgcolor="#DFFFDF"| PO2
 * bgcolor="#FFFF2F"| GLN
 * bgcolor="#CFCFFF"| MI2
 * bgcolor="#DFFFDF"| BR2
 * CA2
 * RI2
 * NH2
 * DV2
 * KAN
 * TL2
 * LW2
 * MR2
 * AT2
 * TX2
 * PH2
 * HOM
 * }
 * }
 * }
 * }
 * }

Categorisation of NASCAR teams
I'm planning to include all the articles in Category:NASCAR teams and Category:Defunct NASCAR teams into the relevant "country" subcategory of Category:Auto racing teams (which I'm expecting will be Category:American auto racing teams for most, if not all). Any objections? DH85868993 07:45, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Go for it and be bold next time. Royal broil  12:07, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Done. DH85868993 15:40, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Good job. Thanks for the help! Royal broil  15:47, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Yates/Newman/Haas/Lanigan Racing needs to be split into two articles.
Yates/Newman/Haas/Lanigan Racing in NASCAR is a diffrent team then Newman/Haas/Lanigan Racing in Champcar. Yates has nothing to do with the CCWS side, and the CCWS team does not bear his name. It would be best to either create two seperate articles, or change the current article to further explain that they are two completly seperate teams. Thanks, Fisha695 20:55, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Winner trophies
When I took pictures of Kulwicki's 1992 Winston Cup trophy, I also took pictures of his other race winner trophies. Some tracks are even closed - Rockingham, North Wilkesboro pole winner. Should I upload images of these trophies and add them to the track and/or race articles? Royal broil 02:25, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the pole winner trophies are the same from one track to the next. But the race winner trophies would be fine to add to track and/or race articles. Mustang6172 06:41, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Most of the race articles are still really bare looking at this point and I think photos of the trophies from a while back would be a great addition. Recury 14:45, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The pole sitter trophies are all different. I have uploaded trophies from obsolete races: the winner's trophy from Rockingham (NC Speedway) and both of his pole winner trophies from 1992 at North Wilkesboro. Should I upload the following images for current races: 1) 1992 Bristol spring race winner (looks good), 2) 1992 Pocono race winner (the trophy is mainly glass but it shows up good from behind the glass display), and 3) 1992 Charlotte pole winner (a glass bowl trophy that doesn't show up very well with other colorful objects that reflect through much of the bowl). I didn't see his 1986 Rookie of the Year trophy. My 2 wikipedian cousins came with me to the trophy room, so I'll see if they have it or any more images. Royal broil  14:22, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Official forums
A discussion is underway at Talk:Johnny Sauter about allowing external links to forums if they are from official forums. The forum manager, User:JasonStixBuckley, contends that they should be allowed, and wants to add external links to up 120 drivers. Please give your opinion there. Royal broil 12:24, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * A strong "thank you" for explaining the relevant policies in detail in that discussion. That gives him much more chance of understanding and helping us rather than leaving in a hissyfit. I added comments there. Barno 18:18, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Individual-race articles proposed for speedy deletion
I see in WP:DELT that somebody has proposed at least three Nextel Cup race articles for speedy deletion: 3M Performance 400, Bank of America 500, and Dodge Dealers 400. I assume these largely-unreferenced but fact-filled articles can be improved to encyclopedic status by citing sources. I don't have time right now to contest or "hangon" these speedies, but could someone please review them and take appropriate action? Thanks. Barno 20:34, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for mentioning WP:DELT, since I wasn't award of its existence.


 * The articles are temporary speedy deletions only to merge their histories. They must have been cut and paste jobs instead of moves. The second article is already completed and it remained intact. Here is the message on the speedy delete template: "This page may meet Wikipedia’s criteria for speedy deletion. The reason given is: A history merge (CSD G6) needs to be performed on this page; the page history to be merged here is from GFS Marketplace 400. Please also check Wikipedia:Cut and paste move repair holding pen for possible explanation of complex cases. NOTE: This does not mean that the page will be permanently deleted; this is a temporary deletion so that the page history can be sorted out, and the page will then be restored." Royal broil  21:34, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Now everything appears normal. Royal broil  19:05, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Individual race reports
I know that there is a category for race reports per event. I changed the 1992 Hooters 500 article from a redirect to a real article since I've been working hard on improving the Alan Kulwicki article to at least Good Article status. There are a small number of very notable races over the decades that deserve an individual race article IMHO. The previous 6 articles were all Daytona 500 articles. What should we call the category for the race reports? Category:NASCAR Nextel Cup races is for race reports per events, so the new category should a child of this category. How about Category:NASCAR Nextel Cup races by decade or Category:NASCAR Nextel Cup race reports? Royal broil 19:05, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Nevermind, I figured it out. Royal broil  01:00, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Alan Kulwicki peer review
I have just posted a request for a Peer review of the Alan Kulwicki article (Peer review/Alan Kulwicki/archive1). This is the first purely NASCAR driver article that has been prepared seeking Good Article criteria, and I intend to improve it until it meets Featured Article criteria. Please review and comment. Royal broil 20:59, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Proposed merge affecting numerous WikiProject NASCAR articles
A contributor who may or may not understand NASCAR/racing has proposed merging all of the articles such as Bump and run (auto racing) into a single article called NASCAR tactics. Please comment with your opinion at Talk:Bump_and_run_%28auto_racing%29. Royal broil 04:08, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Most_wanted_articles
Most_wanted_articles has been updated using the 2007-09-08 data dump. --Sapphic 17:27, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, this list is not helpful. The majority of this missing links are because a single template links to these articles. Can you make up a list without these year articles? Royal broil  22:55, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

added magazines at Motorsport library

 * I've added 1984-94 and 1998-2001 issues of Stock Car Racing and 2000-04 issues of Dick Berggren's Speedway Illustrated to the library at WikiProject Motorsport/Library. (If you're not familiar, that's where volunteers list the racing-related published material that we can check upon specific request.)  That's just the issues retrieved from various storage so far; I hope to dig more out.  My father had SCR going back to 1965, but I don't know how much of that collection got auctioned off when he died.  These will be useful mainly for NASCAR and short-track USA drivers and events (including big dirt races that didn't get much other national coverage). Barno 06:18, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * They are an excellent reliable source for everything to do with stockcars! I used to occasionally read issues from my former brother-in-law SCR subscription. Royal broil  12:45, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Functionality of wedge in NASCAR in detail
As recommended by Royalbroil on Wikipedia:Reference desk/Miscellaneous, I'm moving my question here: For building up the NASCAR section in de.wp, we created a list describing the most common terms and techniques in NASCAR, but now I got a bit confused how the wedge works in detail since the information that can be found on nascar.com is some kind of fuzzy and every other page describes it in some other way, even increasing confusion. Since on en.wp are presumably a lot of more experts in NASCAR, I try to get an answer here. :)

I know wedge describes the crossweight distribution of the car's weight in terms of how much weight is on the right front and left rear wheel. So when I increase the wedge, more weight is transferred to the mentioned wheels and the car is loosing up, because the right rear wheel gets less pressure because of less weight and therefor less grip, right? But now the thing I get confused of: I can make a change to the wedge by changing pressure on the spring on either side. When I put the ratchet in on the right and I want to add a turn of wedge (increasing weight on right front and left rear), do I put pressure on the spring or release pressure? As far as I know, I would release pressure so the car gets down there and the height on the left rear increases in relation to the right rear. And because it gets relatively higher on left rear, it has more weight to carry. To get the same effect when changing on the left side, I have to do it vice versa. Is this correct? --STBR – !? 21:20, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's basicly correct. But I think this is too fine a level of detail for an encyclopedic article.  An article on "terms and techniques in NASCAR", whether as text paragraphs or as a list, should probably have only a sentence of description for wedge. Barno 13:28, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * You're right that this is a bit too detailed for an article, but I want it to understand for myself correctly so I'm not writing any nonsense about it. But if that is correct - as it's described by NASCAR in that way, too - how does this statement fit into it: "If the driver says that the car is loose in the gas exiting the corner, we'll put the wedge wrench in a jack bolt in the left-rear window," McGee says. "When you screw down on that left-rear spring, it puts pressure on it and tightens up the car in the gas." The guys puts pressure on the left rear spring to get the car tighten up? As we said before it should be the other way round, isn't it? --STBR – !?  —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 17:29, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I was surprised that you wanted that level of detail too. Royal broil  20:50, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Way no! Not in this depth for the article. It will be a brief and easy to understand explanation of it without the physical details. But it should be correct explained and because of the link above I got a bit confused. And to be honest, I want to know how it works in detail for myself since I accidentially found out NASCAR is aired live via pay-tv without commercials in Germany when I switched into the Daytona 500. :) --STBR – !? 21:34, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I've been thinking about a wedge article for some time now. Perhaps the article could start with a simple explanation and follow that up with a more detailed one.Mustang6172 06:54, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Template:Infobox NASCAR driver
I notice the above infobox has a section titled "NASCAR NEXTEL Cup Statistics". Of course the series was known by several names before that, and will be known by different names in the future, and I think it would be better to have the section titled to correspond with the era of the driver. This can be implemented very easily so that all that would be needed to add to the infobox code would be something like:


 * Cup_name = WIN

It can be done so that the absence of the above line results in it defaulting to the current name so it won't break any articles that don't have the extra line in. What do others think of the suggestion? AlexJ 13:25, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * How would it look for someone who spanned 2 or 3 series names, like Jeff Gordon, who next year will have raced in Winston Cup/NEXTEL Cup/Sprint Cup? Or Richard Petty, who raced in Grand National/Winston Cup? Would you please make a temporary copy of the template, and implement the changes for testing in a sandbox? My second sandbox is available User:Royalbroil/Sandbox2 if you need one, and I loaded it with the lead sections for Gordon & Petty. I like the idea of having a variable for that data, as long as it looks decent. Royal broil  19:37, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It could be done on a case-by-case basis. For example, if a driver was active from 1994-2004, and won the series in 2000, then Winston Cup would probably be the most suitable as 9 of the 10 seasons were raced under that name and Winston is on his trophy. On the other hand a driver from 2001-2006 could have Nextel as he despite spending half in each, Nextel was the most recent. I'd suggest all current drivers have the current title. I'll get a sandbox version set up shortly. AlexJ 14:21, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Is there a way to automatically link the contents of the field to the current series name (now NEXTEL Cup and Sprint Cup starting next year) no matter what data is typed in the variable? Next year the 2nd level series currently called Busch Series will be renamed, so whatever happens to Cup should happen to that series also.


 * I would prefer to list all of the series names that the driver participated under, like how racing-reference.info does it. For example, for Jeff Gordon that website titles the list "Winston Cup / Nextel Cup Statistics" . Royal broil  15:20, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Right, a first draft is up at User:AlexJ/Sandbox and examples are used at User:AlexJ/Sandbox4. The field is "Series title = " and the different fields are SS, GN, WIN, NEX and SPR. Currently only one series can be used, I'll have a look at multiple names. Maximum of three enough for now? AlexJ 16:28, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

And now a second draft, allowing for multiple series. Use "Series title2 = " and "Series title3 = " with the same abbreviations. Unfortunately I've somehow broken the option to have no cup statistics shown for Busch only drivers (probably a minor problem like a missing pipe character somewhere). However you can get the idea of how the new functionality would work. AlexJ 17:01, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Looks good, but I would like to see one for CTS before I give my final judgement. --D-Day 17:03, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I love it. Would you please do the same for the other 2 series in the infobox? What is now called the Busch Series will be called the Nationwide Series (NS) next year. It used to be called the Busch Grand National Series (abbreviated BGN), Late Model Sportsman Series (LMS), and the Sportsman Division. What is now called the Craftsman Truck Series (CTS) was called the "SuperTruck Series" in its first season.  Royal broil  20:39, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yep, will do. Just need to work out how to fix the optionality of the Cup fields before making the changes to the other two series. AlexJ 11:57, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Possible merger of two articles into the Oval track article
I have mooted the idea of merging the Superspeedway and Roval stubs into dedicated sections of Oval track so that we can have one good article about regular asphalt ovals. Short, board, and dirt tracks are much bigger individual topics and I think that the oval article could and should be as good as that.  Adrian  M. H.  23:17, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

2 new magazine sources
I gained possession of 2 great source magazines from 1997. My sister gave them to me after divorcing her ex. One is the first edition of Richard Petty's Stock Car Magazine which is a 1996 recap plus 1997 driver preview. The other is a one time magazine called 50 Years of Speed which gives NASCAR history from 1948 until Jeff Gordon's 1996 championship. It has lots of biographies, facts and pictures. Royal broil 15:10, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Geobox for Race Tracks
I have been working with Caroig in creating a better box off to the right for race tracks. For now, Chicagoland Speedway has been the test for fields that are needed to be included. I am looking for thoughts on this, and/or suggestions on how to improve. I feel that this one presents all the info the old infobox offered, but with some other perks. It will look better with a bigger article, but this was just the first test.--Kranar drogin 02:43, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The discussion has been moved to Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Motorsport since the infobox affects all motorsport WikiProjects. Royal broil  04:02, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

2006 Race results
For several of the 2007 races (ie Daytona 500) there is also 2006 races results (you have to manually edit the URL in your brower, but the data is there 2006 Daytona 500). Why has no one listed (linked) the 2006 results on the 2007 pages? I would think it would get great info to see who (which race car driver) has preformed well at which track. Is this just an oversight, or is there a reason the 2006 results are not referenced? Rocketmaniac (talk) 04:34, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * There was no consensus if articles should be made for 2007 season races, so some contributors took it upon themselves and wrote race articles for each race in 2007. There were a few articles written about 2006 races, and a few Daytona 500's have articles. You can find out more looking at the subcategories of Category:NASCAR seasons. Feel free to add boxes at the bottom of 2007 linking back to the 2006 report. You can find an example about how to do it at Dale_Earnhardt. If you don't understand, let me a message here and I'll show/explain how to do it. Royal broil  05:52, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I didn't quite understand from the Dale Earnhardt example what you were talking about. Can you show me another example or more detail (kind of new to wikipedia editing). Thanks Rocketmaniac (talk) 11:49, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * You're right, the succession box won't work. There is no race navigation box for NASCAR, but there are some for other racing genres like Formula One. I don't like the current template NASCAR next race because things change from year to year so it is inaccurate for previous years. I started a thread at our parent WikiProject Motorsport to see if a single race navigation should be created for all racing series, and it can be found here. Royal broil  14:35, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Driver data
I was wondering why articles on NASCAR drivers didn't have their race history included. For example, check this link out; http://sports.yahoo.com/nascar/nextel/drivers/87. Rocketmaniac (talk) 05:23, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It's way too time consuming to maintain. WikiProject Formula One does it (example: David_Coulthard), but F1 has a 17 round season and many more contributors. It has been done for Juan Pablo Montoya to update existing boxes. We have discussed implementing this box, and the discussion ended with no consensus at WikiProject NASCAR because the table (at 36 races wide) is too wide. There is a WikiProject Motorsport that some of us participate at, and it was formed to standardize things like this table. Royal broil  05:40, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes you are right, maintaining data about every year, every race with the start, finish, poles etc would be a lot. I was just meaning a recap of the whole year. I did a quick table for Tony Stewart.  It's here User:Rocketmaniac/TS  Tell me what you think. Rocketmaniac (talk) 11:42, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it's fine and that it belongs in an encyclopedia, but others argue that Wikipedia is not a statistics compilation. You can find that same information plus more at a statistics website like this. So I suggest waiting a few weeks for others to comment before you go crazy adding it to a whole bunch of articles. I have been working to improve the Alan Kulwicki article to Good Article or Featured Article status. I did a weaker text-based table here. Would you replace what I did with his data? Royal broil  13:58, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, (an opinion from someone new to wikipedia) I would replace that data. My reasoning is this, the table I suggest gives a bigger picture as to a drivers proformance. How many starts and how many DNFs are examples of huge indicators as to how good or bad a driver is doing. I will most definitely wait for a while before diving into huge updates like this. LOL, I jumped in and modified a HUGE article in the WikiProject Human Spaceflight and ended having to undo hours and hours of work. Rocketmaniac (talk) 14:31, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * My thoughts exactly. Season summaries are helpful and wasted effort is stupid. You'll find that discussion is very important here at Wikipedia. Check out the next thread that I should have started earlier, and I unfortunately need to start it now. Royal broil  14:59, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

When to change the series titles from NEXTEL to Sprint and Busch to Nationwide
I notice some reverting going on about what to call the series at present. We need to determine when to change titles in all of the articles and when to do move the articles. The reversion claimed that January 1 should be the date of change. Would people with Auto Wiki Bot (AWB) experience comment about if a manually assisted bot could do the task? Everyone please comment about 2 things: 1) When to do it and 2) what should we do about the redirects (if you understand redirects).
 * I say do it now and update only the double redirects. The next Cup race will be called the Sprint Cup. It will take a long time to update all of the articles if we change single redirects. Using a manual bot would be extremely time consuming. An automated bot will likely lead to very many errors, so AWB needs to be the plan. Just changing the articles with double redirects and leave the articles with single redirects wouldn't take so long. The single redirects would be slowly changed. Anons will notice the problems and fix them for us, saving us huge time. Royal broil  14:59, 20 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I say keep the names as is until 2008. The reasons stated is in my long post with some sources here at Talk:NASCAR#Series_Name_Changes_are_not_Official_Until_2008.. Mainly I am citing a rational there at Wikipedia:Naming conflict Section 3.1.1 which specifies "Is it the current official name?". To answers to that question is no when refering to Sprint Cup Series and the Nationwide Series and yes to the NEXTEL Cup Series and Busch Series. Heck I don't quite consider the 2007 season to be over yet as the Season Ending Banquets hasn't even happend yet.  Sawblade05  (talk to me undefined my wiki life) 15:19, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * There are events that will still use the current brands until early December at the latest. After the brands are no longer used (i.e., when events using NEXTEL Cup and Busch Series brands, and banquets, have all been hosted), why not change the names of the series in mid-December? Also, if NASCAR.com has its site changed before 1/1/08, this site should be changed then too. --AEMoreira042281 (talk) 15:28, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I have struck out my comment because the main discussion is active in a proposed move under discussion at Talk:Busch_Series. Let's continue the discussion there. Royal broil  16:00, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd say keep it as is until 2008. How is the only thing I have no idea about. I'll let those with that kind of knowledge show their stuff. Rocketmaniac (talk) 12:08, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

NON-Free Use Image Problems
I have been going through alot of the race logo images and been noticing they all have the template but lack a free use rationale. It seems policy is expecting us to have the following tag

See Template:Non-free use rationale for what it looks like. It seems without a proper Fair Use Rationale or having this tag those images will be deleted within a week.  It seems that we let half of our logos get deleted becasue they only had the template and no free use rationiale. The images already deleted can be restord by notifing the admin that delted the image and asking for a restore in order to provide a rationial. 

Since they're far too many of these, I would really need help as it would take me at least a few days of doing nothing but this to fix them.  Sawblade05  (talk to me undefined my wiki life) 07:01, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I was just confirmed as an administrator. Yes, there is now administrator support at WikiProject NASCAR. After I go through the tutorials I should be able to undelete these images providing that they rapidly get fair use rationale from WP:NASCAR contributors. I will review Wikipedia policies and guidelines to make sure that I got everything right. I am not willing to help provide fair use rationale because I don't think that it matters if we have team logos or not. I personally stick to free use images only. Royal broil  01:52, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yea, but the real problem is that major logos like the series logos and the Daytona Logos all have no free version avalable, due to them being trademarked.  Sawblade05  (talk to me undefined my wiki life) 12:04, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Requesting Eyes at Featured picture candidates/Pagoda Tower
I put the Pogoda tower image up at FPC, and attempted a caption, but my knowlage of NASCAR and other race related matters is very limited, and I would apreciate it if someone could take a look at what I wrote and see if it can be tightened or improved. Thanks in advance. TomStar81 (Talk) 09:09, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The caption is reasonable. You should also request eyes at WikiProject American Open Wheel Racing, the WikiProject for the Indy 500. I bet WikiProject Formula One would be interested in too. Royal broil  14:55, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Article for deletion: Jacques Dallaire

 * --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me ) 22:20, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

NASCAR Criticism
Did we approve starting a new article, or is this one guy acting alone?Mustang6172 (talk) 02:44, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Nothing on this page, and I don't recall discussion elsewhere indicating any consensus among the project for breaking this article out; edit history shows just that one editor. More than a year ago, there was debate -- I think it was an AfD, but I don't have time to search now as I'm leaving for Christmas -- which leaned strongly toward the general Wikipedia guideline that "Criticism of" articles should be merged into a small and NPOV-worded section in the parent topic's article.  Standalone "Criticism of" articles tend to violate (or at least push) the guideline about giving undue prominence to minor things surrounding a topic.  Otherwise every fringe theory that gets reported two places can make a "Criticism of Waxed Beans" article that gets stuffed bigger than the "Waxed Beans" article.  Please discuss this with the editor who's building this article, and ask him to improve-and-cite the criticism section of the NASCAR article instead of breaking it out. Barno (talk) 19:30, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't care or have strong preference either way. This way at least the NASCAR article isn't clogged full of criticism. Royal broil  05:46, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I am personally considering placing that page on WP:VFD as it is a WP:NPOV trap. Much of that article is unsourced anyway.  Sawblade05  (talk to me undefined my wiki life) 22:11, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * And the article has been listed for AFD at Articles for deletion/NASCAR Criticism  Sawblade05  (talk to me undefined my wiki life) 22:32, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Sprint Cup Series or Sprint Cup
I see the NEXTEL Cup Series article was moved to Sprint Cup however I think it should had been moved to Sprint Cup Series as that is what the logo of series says. I am think that the official name is now Sprint Cup Series and not just the Sprint Cup. Anyway Sprint Cup actually refers to the new trophy name and not the series itself. Does anyone agree with me?  Sawblade05  (talk to me undefined my wiki life) 07:15, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Disagree. It had been named NEXTEL Cup, so I moved it to Sprint Cup. I will abide with consensus whatever that is. Royal broil  14:04, 1 January 2008 (UTC)


 * it should have been nextel cup series and should be sprint cup series...a redirect should be made to send users who type sprint cup to sprint cup series and talk about said cup on the main page. WillC (talk) 15:38, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The reason why I had it moved there is to eliminate a double standard as the other 2 series articles Nationwide Series and Craftsman Truck Series both have "Series" in the name. Having Double Standards on these names makes the articles sloppy in General.  Sawblade05  (talk to me undefined my wiki life) 21:04, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Sprint for the Cup, Chase for the Sprint Cup or whatsoever?
Is there some sort of official announcement how the "chase" will be called from 2008 on? Didn't find anything but rumors and nascar.com doesn't provide an answer to this question, too. So on en.wp the article was moved to Sprint for the Cup, in de.wp to Chase for the Sprint Cup - for now. A bit confusing situation in my opinion. Ideas? --STBR – !? 09:04, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * This press release refers to it as the "Chase for the NASCAR Sprint Cup". The NASCAR part is pretty redundant to me, so I would go with "Chase for the Sprint Cup". Recury (talk) 19:44, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Since nothing has been announced I think we should assume that it's still the Chase for the Sprint Cup, just because "Sprint for the Cup" sounds good doesn't mean its correct, plus it really goes against the Wikipedia is not a crystal ball rule. I will leave it up to someone else to move the page to Chase for the Sprint Cup, instead of being involved in an edit war.--KaseyKahneFan (talk) 01:36, 4 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I made the move to there becasue I thought the Sprint for the Cup became the official name per edits. I wonder if we should move it yet or try to find more sources on name so we don't get involved in a war?  Sawblade05  (talk to me undefined my wiki life) 22:30, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, the name Sprint for the Cup fails the Google test I ran on it. However the Google test on "Chase for the Sprint Cup" had only provided one source here, not enough to confirm that name: http://www.scenedaily.com/stories/2007/11/05/scene_daily344.html, the 3rd result "Chase for the NASCAR Sprint Cup" won the Google test providing more reliable source than the other 2 options: http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=325606, http://www.autoracingdude.com/nascar/news/2007/9/26/nascar-announces-2008-sprint-cup-schedule, http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2008/01/04/074392.html. That result also gave us the COI links of the Tracks that advertise their Chase Races giving that same name.


 * So What I propose is moving the article to "Chase for the NASCAR Sprint Cup" and creating a redirect at "Chase for the Sprint Cup". Even though the name is redundant that appears to be the official new name for the Chase, also taking in mind the Guideline Naming conflict. Per that Guideline the Google test says that "Chase for the NASCAR Sprint Cup" is the most common name also, so it is another reason why to move it there. Maybe later in the year the other name may become more common, that is why I want to see the redirect made. If the official name becomes just "Chase for the Sprint Cup" or becomes more common per the Google test later in the year then we can always propose a move at WP:RM later in the year. For right now please do not move the page yet until this is resolved otherwise we have more problems tring to move the page again if we all have a disagreement.  Sawblade05  (talk to me undefined my wiki life) 23:02, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Well in the same press release, they call the series "the NASCAR Sprint Cup Series" every time they mention it. They just put NASCAR in front of everything, so I wouldn't use that as part of the title if it were up to me. Just my opinion. Recury (talk) 03:31, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Well I guess we couldn't get to a consensus here.  Sawblade05  (talk to me undefined my wiki life) 10:43, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I found a page on NASCAR.com that refers to it as the "Chase for the Sprint Cup", look near the bottom it says "ABC completes the season with 11 broadcasts, beginning with race No. 26, the cutoff event for the Chase for the Sprint Cup" NASCAR.com - NASCAR announces 2008 Sprint Cup broadcast times--KaseyKahneFan (talk) 01:34, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

List of professional sports team owners
I recently discovered this article: List of professional sports team owners. I thought someone here may care to populate the NASCAR section. DH85868993 (talk) 02:42, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I am posting an AFD for List of current NASCAR races
I am posting an AFD for List of current NASCAR races per it's redunancy to List of 2007 NASCAR races. I am proposing if the page does get deleted it would become a redirect to List of 2008 NASCAR races. Anyway you can vote on it here at Articles for deletion/List of current NASCAR races.  Sawblade05  (talk to me undefined my wiki life) 14:54, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Driver data revisited
Hey everyone, I just wanted to know if people would give their opinion on this issue. See the section above labeled Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_NASCAR. I am willing to start this big project if people think it is a good idea. Rocketmaniac (talk) 03:23, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

The driver's infobox needs amending
Dario Franchitti's (example) says "All stats current as of November 20, 2007. " Stats? Cheap and nasty informality if I ever saw it. Surely Wiki should have a higher standard than that. Could I suggest it defaults to "Statistics current at (date)"? 222.153.66.18 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 22:47, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * That would be nice if we could insure the stats were current to that date, but we really can't. It would take a huge, corroborated effort to check 100's of pages a day. I don't see it as possible. Also this talk page is only for discussion on this article, NASCAR, not general discussion of NASCAR related topic. I suggest that you post at Wikiproject NASCAR for proper discussion. --Michael Greiner 23:08, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I must be losing my touch. I thought I had made it clear -- for each driver there is a different date, which is the day the statistics are updated for that driver. Hundreds of pages would not have to checked each day at all. Using Franchitti as example, his record would be amended after each race, (or two or three etc depending on the keenness of editors), and the day that info was changed in his article, would be the date stated in the infobox as the current info. If you think we can't ensure statistics are accurate current to a given date, then that information has no place in the infobox at all. However, that's only part of my quibble. Use of the word "stats" is an awful sloppy standard for an encyclopedia. Thanks for directing me to Wikiproject NASCAR where I will transfer this thread. Cheers.  222.153.66.18 (talk)
 * I changed it to, "Statistics current as of (date)" hope that helps.--KaseyKahneFan (talk) 00:20, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Cheers. You've met me half way. "At" (one word) means "as of" (two words). 222.153.66.18 (talk) 02:09, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I prefer the wording "as of" too. "Stats" sounds way too informal, so "statistics" is much better. Royal broil  02:45, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Dodge Challenge 500
Officially, the Dodge Challenger 500 NASCAR race at Darlington is a continuation of the Rebel 300, as the race kept its sponsor (Dodge) and was moved back to the Confederate Memorial Day weekend which Bob Colvin used to hold the Rebel 300, which became the Rebel 500. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.157.131.116 (talk) 22:39, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Interesting. I have no opinion or other comments.


 * Please get an ID, for then it's easier for us to respond back to you and to communicate with you. Your contributions are excellent. Royal broil  00:44, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Late model
There's a new article on the street cars, and I started a section on the racecars. I'm sure there's A LOT more to be said about the racecars, so have fun expanding it! Royal broil 17:42, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Weekly Racing Series national champions
Today I've created stub articles, referenced, for all the NASCAR Weekly Racing Series national champions. (It's not clear that the regional champions have enough notability for seperate bio articles, although they all got coverage in racing newspapers and racing magazines and some non-racing newspapers.) I'm looking for help expanding and referencing these articles. In particular, an editor has already insisted on my talkpage that the journalist Gary Webb (apparently very controversial) is the only person for whom users would be searching if they enter Gary Webb, and claims there is "no need" for a disambiguation page. I don't want to get into an edit war. Can you improve the racer's page to help demonstrate his importance? Thanks. Barno (talk) 22:43, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Problem with IP editor
I have lost all my patience with this IP editor User:86.4.20.46, he or she is messing up a lot of NASCAR related stuff on here, he or she creates double redirects, fills in outdated info, etc. I tried to get this editor blocked a while ago but I believe the admin said his/her edits were "content disputes" when clearly a number of the edits are aimed at vandalizing NASCAR related articles on Wikipedia. Here is some of the most recent stuff...seems like this person never takes a break, and only a small percentage of their edits are constructive.-- KaseyKahne Fan 22:40, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


 * 1) - redirected Cracker Barrel 500 article to Golden Corral 500 creating a double redirect to Kobalt Tools 500
 * 2) - changed DEI's sponsors to older ones
 * 3) - redirected Texas 500 to Samsung/Radioshack 500 creating a double redirect to Samsung 500
 * I have reported at WP:AIV so a more experienced admin will deal with. I don't have very much experience with blocking. I'm not sure what to do since there's some positive contributions. Also, the problems were created pretty many hours ago. Royal broil  05:11, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Robin Pemberton
Just wrote an article for Robin Pemberton. I'm not quite sure how that one escaped all the rabid NASCAR fans (especially after the 2007 Daytona 500) and ended up being written by a casual fan like me, but there it is. Needs a rating. - Realkyhick (Talk to me) 21:29, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Sprint for the Cup name
Ok I hate to bring this up yet once again, but I have to protest the Chase name change on Wikipedia to Sprint for the Cup. My two main reasons for this are A: Absoultely no SOURCES exsist on the internet about a name change except Wikipedia itself (which is a big problem) B: NASCAR has never mentioned one bit about a name change for the Chase (if they had it would have most likely been announced during the Nextel-Sprint announcement or during the most recent announcement of the All-Star race name)

Now you may ask what I have that backs up my argument. I have found two pages on NASCAR.com that clearly refer to the Championship as the "Chase for the Sprint Cup" NOT "Sprint for the Cup". The most recent is #2 which was published on Feb. 7th, the opening sentance "NASCAR seems to change with every blink of the eye, but its 2008 Chase will remain remarkably unchanged -- except, of course, for its name (it's now the Chase for the NASCAR Sprint Cup)."

Now if these two pages straight from NASCAR's website itself don't warrant a name change to "Chase for the Sprint Cup" then I don't know what does. I have been holding back on moving the pages due to the backlash I would probably receive from editors who provide no sources but yet insist on keeping it "Sprint for the Cup".-- KaseyKahne Fan 06:48, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

1.

2.


 * Move. Reference #2 is very clear that it should be "Chase for the Sprint Cup". Royal broil  12:14, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Awards field in driver infobox
I'm wondering whether the "Awards" field in the NASCAR driver infobox would be more appropriately title "Honours" or "Achievements". Consider the list of "Awards" in A. J. Foyt's infobox: I consider all of these (except maybe "co-Driver of the Century") to be "honours" or "achievements", rather than "awards". (To me, an "award" is something more like the Laureus World Sports Award for Sportsman of the Year or "Autosport International Racing Driver of the Year", or something like that). Similarly, I consider Lake Speed's "awards": to be more "achievements" than "awards". But perhaps my interpretation of the word "award" differs from that of others - thoughts? DH85868993 (talk) 07:15, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Only driver to win the Indianapolis 500 (four times), the Daytona 500, the 24 Hours of Daytona, and the 24 Hours of Le Mans.
 * International Motorsports Hall of Fame Inductee (2000)
 * Named co-Driver of the Century by the Associated Press
 * Named one of NASCAR's 50 Greatest Drivers (1998)
 * Inducted in the first class in the National Sprint Car Hall of Fame (U.S.) (1990)
 * Inducted in the first class into the Motorsports Hall of Fame of America (1989)
 * Inducted in the National Midget Auto Racing Hall of Fame (1988)
 * 6-time United States Karting champion
 * 1978 World Karting champion
 * I like "Achievements" much more than the other 2 (of course we would use the U.S. spelling "Honors" if we went that way). It conveys that the list includes more than just the things that were awarded: It also includes major race wins. One concern is that we need to somehow make sure that a driver with a single win won't have that single win at a non-major race listed as an "achievement". Royal broil  13:27, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed with the word "Achievements" - winning a race of any kind is an achievement; it does not automatically earn an award unless one is provided. "Awards", on the other hand, would be things like Rookie of the Year titles or (more trivially) the Allstate "Good Hands Driver" award for a given race. Thus, I'd push for two separate lists: "Achievements" and "Awards". Duncan1800 (talk) 03:48, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Here's an idea of what I'd expect a (totally fictional) generic listing to look like:

Achievements
 * Total of 25 career NASCAR Sprint Cup victories, including:
 * Daytona 500: 2 wins
 * Southern 500: 1 win
 * NASCAR Nationwide Series champion in 2005
 * USAC Silver Crown Series champion in 2001

Awards
 * NASCAR Sprint Cup "Rookie of the Year" in 2005
 * Voted "Most Improved Nationwide Driver" by Stock Car Journalists Association in 2004


 * You get the idea, I hope. Duncan1800 (talk) 03:54, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * That's fine with me, as long as we can keep the achievements section to only major race wins like the Daytona 500 and Indy 500. I would disagree with including even the other big NASCAR races like the Southern 500, Brickyard 400, Coca Cola/World 600, etc. Royal broil  13:18, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I've been wanting to incorporate this idea to the Infobox for awhile and I took it upon myself to do so today. When you edit a drivers page just add a "|Achievements" line above the Awards line in the infobox code then put what you want there.-- KaseyKahne Fan 05:35, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

LifeLock 400 Changes Tracks So Some Article Moves are in Order
I was looking at Jayski.com today and noted that the Spring Race at Michigan International Speedway The Michigan 400 Is now known as the LifeLock 400 but the problem is that LifeLock 400 links direclty too the Kansas Race last year. My Sgueustion is moving LifeLock 400 to Kansas 400 and making LifeLock 400 a disambig page for the 2 races. If not a disambig then redirecting it to Michigan 400 with a note to go to the Kansas Race page for lasts years event. I have been very busy and I won't have the time to make the moves myself and I don't have access to do it ethier. So I need help from a Wikipedia Admin. The source of the race name is at http://www.jayski.com/pages/tracks/michigan.htm.  Sawblade05  (talk to me undefined my wiki life) 10:34, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. Thanks for bringing it up. NASCAR.com has the new race name too, of course. I added a WP:HATNOTE instead since contributors will likely link to the new article without looking at it. Anyone who is looking for the old race at Kansas will encounter a link to the old name immediately at the top of the article. Royal broil  13:46, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Another Cup Race Named LifeLock 400 - Time for Disambig?
Guess what, LifeLock have sponsered the Chicago Cup race now per http://www.jayski.com/pages/tracks/chicago.htm The Official Race name is LifeLock.com 400 for that race. I am wondering if we need to make LifeLock 400 a disambig page and move the current LifeLock 400 to LifeLock 400 (Michigan)  Sawblade05  (talk to me undefined my wiki life) 09:56, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * That should be illegal (just kidding). Since their common names are slightly different Lifelock 400 vs. Lifelock.com 400, we should be okay, right? Couldn't we include a WP:HATNOTE on the top of each page direction readers to the simular page? For example, on the Lifelock.com 400 we could say "For the race at Kansas Speedway with the simular name, see the Lifelock 400." Royal broil  12:41, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Well that would work except the LifeLock.com 400 is at Chicagoland Speedway and not at Kansas Speedway. The Sponser for Kansas has yet to be determained for the cup race. So make sure the hatnote reads Chicagoland Speedway.  Sawblade05  (talk to me undefined my wiki life) 10:14, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
 * ✅ Done Thanks for correcting me. Royal broil  15:14, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Help request: GA backlog
Hello. There has been a large backlog at the Good Article Nominations page for a while, and some articles wait up to 50 days for a review. Since most of my editing is in the Sports and Recreation category, that is the area that I am currently focusing on. To try to cut down on the backlog, I'm approaching projects with the request that members from that project review two specific articles over the next week. My request to WikiProject NASCAR is to try to find time to review Glebe Dirty Reds and Andy Reid (footballer). If these are already reviewed by someone else or you have time for another review (or you'd rather review something else altogether), it would be great if you could help out with another article. Of course, this is purely voluntary. If you could help, though, it would help out a lot and be greatly appreciated. The basic instructions for reviewing articles is found at WP:GAN and the criteria is found at WP:WIAGA. I recently began reviewing articles, and I've found it fairly enjoyable and I've learned a lot about how to write high quality articles. Best wishes, GaryColemanFan (talk) 17:48, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

NAV templates
I think we need to establish criteria for navigation templates, to avoid unnecessary ones like BAMRacing. I think many wins and/or a championship should be general acceptance, or at least being a provider of a technical partnership with many other teams. Thoughts? --D-Day (talk) 14:38, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I dislike making a general rule like this, in fact I argue that most Cup teams should have a template since there are usually at least 3 articles about the team: the owner, driver (of course), the team, often former drivers, and occasionally crew chiefs. D-Day has nominated the template for deletion at Templates for deletion/Log/2008 March 26, so you can voice your opinion there as well (whatever it is). I'm linking both discussions together. Royal broil  15:46, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Alan Kulwicki is GA
The Alan Kulwicki article is now a Good Article! Thanks to everyone for their improvement and peer reviews! Royal broil 20:17, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Lucky dog
has suggested that the article be renamed Beneficiary Rule since that's NASCAR's official name. You can comment at the article's talk page Talk:Lucky dog. Royal broil 04:16, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

1987 Winston Cup Season
I am working on updating the 1987 season article (you can check out my user sandbox for my progress and format). Before I get full on into it, I'd like to make sure it's not going to get deleted or anything. I am in the midst of watching the entire season on video and will be adding tons of info. I'd like to put it together similar to how the current season articles look. I plan on noting team changes and any piece of relevant information. I would also have no problem doing other seasons as well. GeoffEighinger (talk) 09:34, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * There are season articles on very many racing series, so you shouldn't be worried about notability/deletion. There's some well-sourced information about the 1980s and 1990s in the Alan Kulwicki article which is nearing FAC. Some of those sources might be helpful to you, especially for the 1986, 1988, 1992 and 1993 seasons.  Royal  broil  16:22, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Importance Scale
I'm guessing that most of the WikiProject NASCAR Members may disagree with me, but, to me, I think a lot of NASCAR articles' importance are one rank too high. For example, I highly doubt that Elliott Sadler is considered to be "notable in a significant and important way within the sport of NASCAR, but not necessarily outside it." Why do I think this? Well, is winning 3 races that big, especially if he hasn't won since 2004? Alright, he may have been in the first Chase, but then again, when you have driven for 3 different teams in almost 10 seasons, as well as getting numerous crew chief changes, does that really make you notable in a good way? By the way, this was not a diss to Sadler, but just an example. I mean, I would like to go on, but I think it will be better if someone is able to respond to this first. JediYoda1120 (talk) 03:30, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * He's a marginal case between Mid and High in my mind. The 3 wins are probably the reason that he was assessed as high. The "since 2004" part is key. In 2004 he would have been considered high importance driver who could have won on any given week, which needs to be factored in. Morgan Shepherd also had 4 cup wins, so he was assessed as high even though he hasn't done much for a long time. You have to look at the driver's importance back in their heyday.  Royal broil  04:34, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Adding Per Race Statistics To Current Nascar Drivers and Future (possible older drivers too)
I started this little project and my main goal is to get it out on the profiles of the respective drivers. It has a bunch to do with Per Race Statistics in the 3 Major Divisions of Nascar. I started one for Kyle Busch, it is only the Craftsman Truck Series but will soon be expanded to the Busch/Nationwide and NEXTEL/Sprint Cup. I was wondering if you guys thought it would be a good idea or not.

Here Is My Sample Of What I Have Been Working On:
 * My sandbox

(I Have Not Listed Any Ref's Yet) But they would mainly be www.nascar.com www.yahoo.com/sports www.foxsports.com www.racing-reference.com

Should we start doing this for all drivers? i am aware that it is alot of work, but hey? what article isn't, doing this one all on my own is tough stuff, but if we give this a go, it should be easiar. I will definitaly be doing Kyle Busch's, Denny Hamlin's and Tony Sstewart's.

The reason i dont think we can do this for past drivers is that, the stats are difficult to find and some sites say different things, and sites say weird things.

But i guess if you can find a site that will give you the info you need, Go For It.

--Jrobb525 (talk) 23:50, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't like it and I oppose. First, it's too much information. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a statistics database. Second, in that format it will be so large that it would overwhelm the text in almost every article. This has been discussed twice before on this page  .  Royal  broil  06:06, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Since NASCAR holds the official records, nascar.com should be on the only reference. Here's a link to Alan Kulwicki's 1986 stats at nascar.com.  Royal broil  06:10, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I oppose this also, we should keep the in depth stats to their respective sites like NASCAR and Racing-Reference. Although personally I wouldn't mind each driver having a stat box at the bottom of their page with their Sprint Cup Series statistics only, unless they are better in another series like Craftsman or Nationwide. Here is a hybrid example of the box that some driver's have on their page now. Please let me know what you think so we can all agree on something.-- KaseyKahne Fan  04:38, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

(Example based on Kasey Kahne) == NASCAR Sprint Cup Series statistics ==

Statistics as of March 31, 2008, provided by NASCAR.com.


 * I'm fine with that table. It's not too much or too little statistics: it's just right. The only bad thing is that it's nothing like the tables that are used by other motorsports WikiProjects, so it doesn't work for drivers that have raced in other genres of motorsports like Montoya. Other WikiProjects use race-by-race results.  Royal broil  12:28, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with Royalbroil on using the table that is shown above because it's short and simple, but it sums-up everything in a given year, which, just like Wikipedia's goal, doesn't give a reader unneeded info, such as where the given driver finished in a race that he didn't even do good in. Also, is it alright if the table's year column was colored to that driver's primary color of that year? So, for example, Kasey Kahne's color would be the Budweiser's red for 2008, while his other years would use the red that reflects Dodge's logo. JediYoda1120 (talk) 23:31, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * It wouldn't be apart of the main article, there would be like a main article link. I understand what you guys are talking about.


 * But some drivers have these on there pages:


 * {| class="wikitable"

! colspan="8" style="background:orange; color:black" |  2008 PreSeason Races  ! # ! Date ! Race ! Track ! Start ! Finish ! Rank ! Behind ! colspan="8" style="background:orange; color:black" |  2008 Regular Season - Races 1 - 26  ! # ! Date ! Race ! Track ! Start ! Finish ! Rank ! Behind
 * 02/09/2008
 * Budweiser Shootout
 * Daytona International Speedway
 * 10th
 * 2nd
 * 02/14/2008
 * Gatorade Duel - Race 2
 * Daytona International Speedway
 * 8th
 * 2nd
 * 02/14/2008
 * Gatorade Duel - Race 2
 * Daytona International Speedway
 * 8th
 * 2nd
 * 2nd
 * 1
 * 02/17/2008
 * Daytona 500
 * Daytona International Speedway
 * 6th
 * 3rd
 * 3rd
 * -20
 * 2
 * 02/24/2008
 * Auto Club 500
 * Auto Club Speedway
 * 6th
 * 7th
 * 3rd
 * -19
 * 3
 * 03/02/2008
 * UAW-Dodge 400
 * Las Vegas Motor Speedway
 * 25th
 * 43rd
 * 11th
 * -136
 * }
 * 11th
 * -136
 * }
 * }


 * Would we just get rid of them at the end of the season? I will probably keep them in a seperate article in my own sandbox. Or should we stop these all together.--Jrobb525 (talk) 08:35, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Stop them altogether. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a detailed statistics database. Someone can find racing-reference.info or nascar.com if they want statistics. It's also quite hard to maintain a lot of statistics each week.  Royal broil  12:42, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Race Article Titles and Sponsors

 * From Wikipedia talk:WikiProject NASCAR/Standards which now redirects to WT:NASCAR. Airplaneman   ✈  Review? 03:20, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

For example, should O'Reilly 200 presented by Valvoline Maxlife be retitled O'Reilly 200, and refer to the full title in the article body alone as per the common name scheme? MSJapan (talk) 04:47, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Re-Vamping Pages
Right now, I'm currently re-vamping Travis Kvapil's page. When I talk about re-vamping, I mean adding sources, cleaning it up, not making the page a weekly update source, etc., to which the page can achieve FA Status. Hopefully, most of you will like the direction I'm taking with this page. In fact, even though I will want to work on a driver's page that isn't too long, I will accept requests (from anybody), on my talk page, to re-vamp any driver's page (That's if other users like the direction I'm taking with Kvapil's at the moment.). By the way, for Kvapil's page, two things that I might not be able to obtain are:

1. A free photo of him to use in the info box. 2. Sources from his early career.

So, if anybody could help me there, I would appreciate it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JediYoda1120 (talk • contribs) 04:50, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry that I forgot to sign my signature. JediYoda1120 (talk) 05:00, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

So, as of now, I'm done for today. I mostly sourced everything in Travis Kvapil's Sprint Cup Series Career, except the sponsorship from Zaxby's (IF ANYBODY CAN FIND A GOOD LINK, PLEASE ADD!). By the way, if anybody fells like discussing why I left something out or put a certain line in the article, please talk to me on my talk page. JediYoda1120 (talk) 08:23, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Sneaky vandal
I found the extensive amount of sneaky vandalism and misinformation that and Dan's IP  placed in NASCAR-related articles. Fact checking at racing-reference.info found all of it to be bogus, and I have reverted all of it. Placing misinformation is disruptive and disruption is a blockable offense. The username could easily be permanently blocked since it is used only for vandalism. Let me know if it continues or post at WP:AIV. Be suspicious, and feel free to revert either contributor if they continue posting bad information.  Royal broil  21:15, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Could someone Assess?
I just created the article Closest NASCAR Sprint Cup Series finishes wondering if someone could assess it for me? The article shows the closest finishes since electronic scoring. I created it using a list at FOX Sports.com. Which started with the 2003 Carolina Dodge Dealers 400 with a margin of 0.002 and ended with the 1997 Pepsi 400 finish with a margin of 0.029. If there was a tie in the finish time I listed the most recent finish first.-- KaseyKahne Fan 16:09, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * ✅ Done You could include a little more history by mentioning the first Daytona 500 in 1959, which took several days to decide after NASCAR founder Bill France, Sr. listened to eyewitness accounts and inspected photos.  Royal broil  19:33, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Changes to the WP:1.0 assessment scheme
As you may have heard, we at the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial Team recently made some changes to the assessment scale, including the addition of a new level. The new description is available at WP:ASSESS.
 * The new C-Class represents articles that are beyond the basic Start-Class, but which need additional references or cleanup to meet the standards for B-Class.
 * The criteria for B-Class have been tightened up with the addition of a rubric, and are now more in line with the stricter standards already used at some projects.
 * A-Class article reviews will now need more than one person, as described here.

Each WikiProject should already have a new C-Class category at Category:C-Class_articles. If your project elects not to use the new level, you can simply delete your WikiProject's C-Class category and clarify any amendments on your project's assessment/discussion pages. The bot is already finding and listing C-Class articles.

Please leave a message with us if you have any queries regarding the introduction of the revised scheme. This scheme should allow the team to start producing offline selections for your project and the wider community within the next year. Thanks for using the Wikipedia 1.0 scheme! For the 1.0 Editorial Team, §hepBot  ( Disable )  21:08, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Jim Hurtubise record prior to 1975
I am trying to reference the article about former Indy Car and Nascar Jim Hurtubise. He did win the 1966 Atlanta 500, but the NASCAR.com page on him only lists his record in 1975 and beyond, at which point he was pretty much done with NASCAR. I found this, but it looks like an non-official site that may be challenged as being not a reliable source. Is there any reputable source of stats for older NASCAR drivers? --rogerd (talk) 21:59, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Almost every NASCAR article uses racing-reference.info as its source. The website goes back to the first NASCAR Strictly Stock race in 1948. It has every race in the big 3 divisions plus the NASCAR Convertible Division. It has every NASCAR owner in the Cup series history. It didn't stand up to the extremely strict FA referencing required for Alan Kulwicki's FAC, but we still use it anyhow. Here's his information.  Royal broil  04:29, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that's what I was looking for. I am more of a fan of open-wheeled racing, I don't know that much about stock car racing.  I wish there was a good source of info for old Indy Car drivers.  --rogerd (talk) 11:28, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. I work on most kinds of auto racing articles, and I wish open wheel and other types had a resource that good.  Royal broil  12:16, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Time To Archive?
I am wondering when shall this discussion page should be archived. Its starting to take a long time to load and to find specific topics here. I noted that it has been 2 years since the page was last archived.  Sawblade05  (talk to me undefined my wiki life) 12:00, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Sounds good - go for it. The directions are located at WP:ARCHIVE. You just need to add to the existing archive box, which uses the Subpage archive method.  Royal broil  02:36, 29 July 2008 (UTC)