Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association/Archive 33

Cleveland Cavaliers logo
One user updated the Cavaliers' logo since the season ended. However, that logo is in fact the "primary icon", which we do not use in NBA articles. He ignores the fact that official "Cleveland Cavaliers Reproduction and Usage Guideline Sheet" specifically shows, which logo is the main, and he thinks that "primary icon" is the main when it is the opposite and "global logo" is in fact the main logo. Any thoughts? – Sabbatino (talk) 18:40, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, their social media accounts use the "C" logo, the printable schedule (link on my talk page) shows the C w/sword thru it. I have yet to find a source (or picture) that shoes the "global" logo as a primary use. If it were to be used by the team as a main logo, they'd be using it on EVERYTHING. But that isn't the case. Sportslogo.net has it wrong this time. Corkythe hornetfan  (ping me) 19:06, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Recruit boxes in bios (again)
With the NBA draft, there's going to be a new set of bios this project inherits. As far as I know, there has never been a consensus to have tables of college recruit rankings in bios (e.g. Markelle_Fultz). The last WikiProject discussion was started by at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_National_Basketball_Association/Archive_31. At Talk:Kevin_Durant, proposed "Remove the big info box with his high school recruiting information. I think it's big and chunky, and feels more relevant for players currently in high school versus those who have moved on to a professional career", which  supported.

Personally, I agree that they are too bulky for bios. It's more relevant what the consensus rankings are (e.g. consensus 5-star recruit), without needing to go into minutia of every agency's positional and overall player rankings (WP:FANCRUFT?) About the only exception is if some is ranked No. 1 by a specific service. In any event, all this is best presented in prose. Per MOS:TABLES: "Prose is preferred in articles as prose allows the presentation of detail and clarification of context, in a way that a table may not ... In an article, significant items should normally be mentioned naturally within the text rather than merely tabulated." I'm OK with these tables in college team articles, where it would be too verbose to mention each recruit, and the references in the table are not as bulky when there are multiple recruits.—Bagumba (talk) 08:42, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I still prefer the tables, but I am don't have a lot of time to spend on articles anymore.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:52, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Summer League in infoboxes
Summer League signings are upon us. We generally have not updated infoboxes with the info. I've created WP:NBACAREERHIST as a convenient shortcut when people add it to an infobox's career history. This stuff is fine in prose.—Bagumba (talk) 05:24, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I am dealing with one case (Tim Kempton Jr.) where the player has officially signed in Spain, but was added to the Bucks' Summer League roster (it isn't unusual for American players to have an out clause if they can make an NBA roster). Really, his Spanish club should be the team of record unless and until he gets signed by a different team. Rikster2 (talk) 14:56, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Other editors are WP:CRUFTing infoboxes and WP:LEADs of all the players who I follow that are not in the NBA (Derrick Walton, L. J. Peak and Zak Irvin) but have signed summer league contracts. I am getting tired of this annual battle.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:51, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

WNBA "by team" category
For context, the inactive WNBA project appears under this NBA project per WikiProject National Basketball Association/WNBA task force.

migrated WNBA team-player categories to a brand new Category:Women's National Basketball Association players by team. Djln's prior creation and migrations to these "by team" categorizations has been opposed three times, twice here and once in men's CBK. In all prior cases, Djln refused to discuss on the Talk pages of the relevant projects. While I'm sympathetic to their likely argument for this format, their refusal to discuss has again led to reversion per WP:BRD. UW Dawgs (talk) 05:57, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Proposing a topic ban at WP:ANI seems reasonable with the work that is being spent cleaning up the same issue over and over.—Bagumba (talk) 08:35, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Let me get this straight. You can see why I created Category:Women's National Basketball Association players by team but you emptied it because I did'nt ask your permission to create first. Are you for real, how arrogant. You are simply reverting categories just because I created them, no other reason. Djln Djln (talk) 18:31, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

Discussion at WT:BBALL about BIG3
There is a discussion about BIG3 at WT:BBALL. Please give your opinion as the situation is getting out of hand at the affected articles. – Sabbatino (talk) 16:59, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Juwan Howard event
I noticed a spike in page views for Juwan Howard. All I can find is this. I feel that there must have been an event in his life worth considering for being included in this article.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:15, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

How to reflect 2-way contracts?
This year each team gets a couple "2-way" contracts added to their roster - players will play mostly in the G-League but can be brought up and the team owns the rights (example). How do we want to reflect these? Add to team roster and current roster templates? If so, we probably need a new code for the roster template to show this status. Thoughts? Rikster2 (talk) 17:51, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
 * These deals are starting to get signed. I propose we use the style I used on Bronson Koenig - which is essentially the same as a parent club player sent down for assignment - both team roster templates burst infobox colors of the "active" team. For team rosters, my recommendation would be to add 2-way players (they are part of the overall roster) but designate them in some way - any ideas how? Rikster2 (talk) 04:47, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Looks like is using TW on the roster listing.  However, that doesn't indicate if the player is in the G-League or with the NBA club.  If we want that, perhaps we create a new section for 2-way players under the existing player section; GL for the 2-way players means they are in the G-League, otherwise they are with the NBA team.  That would need some template changes. —Bagumba (talk) 14:19, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * (ec) They should be treated like NFL taxi squad players as far as templates go. I.e., they should be a separate lower section of the templates. We should not update the WP:LEAD unless it is cited by a WP:IC from a WP:RS in the main body though.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:24, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Tony, a 2-way contract should absolutely be in the lead, it is the player's team(s) of record. You are right there needs to be a RS (true of all team affiliations actually), but most of these deals are being announced on the team site just like other deals. Rikster2 (talk) 17:59, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't like the separate section, especially for the current roster template at the bottom of player articles. NBA teams have only 17 players total so I don't think the differentiation is required. I'd like something along the lines of what the Australian NBL templates do - they have an "I" beside the player name if they are an "import." (example). as for indicating if the player is with the parent club or the G-League, I really don't think that is necessary - we don't do that today with rookies shuttling between the NBA and G-League which happens today - do we need to start? Rikster2 (talk) 15:00, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Actually, people did update the roster before with DL if they were assigned to the D-League. See this example.—Bagumba (talk) 15:36, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Got It, you are talking about the "roster template" while I was thinking of the "current roster" templates. Seems like a waste to constantly update (the roster is the roster) but if there is a group willing to do this then it seems like we should follow existing protocol for NBA/G-league Rikster2 (talk) 17:56, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Tim Hardaway Jr.
There is a discussion about Tim Hardaway Jr.'s name at Template talk:New York Knicks roster. Please give your input there. – Sabbatino (talk) 16:44, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Histories of NBA Teams
I just have a question, is it better if NBA teams have their own articles for their histories or should their histories be explicitly stated on the teams' main pages? 'Cause I noticed that the Los Angeles Lakers and the Charlotte Hornets have their full team histories on their page whereas the Brooklyn Nets and the New Orleans Pelicans have separate articles for their team histories. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nintendoswitchfan (talk • contribs) 15:54, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
 * The general rule is to use summary style. When the history becomes too detailed for the team article, a separate history page can be created.  At the same time, the history pages should be a high level of what's in the individual team season articles.—Bagumba (talk) 16:10, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. Nintendoswitchfan (talk) 17:16, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Teams' templates
Today a completely new user just came and changed Template:New York Knicks to an obsolete version, which I reverted. However, not long after that some old user came and again reverted stating that I need a consensus for format's change. I again reverted and specifically wrote that I intend to implement this change to all other teams' templates. I thought the templates were supposed to be compact and include only relevant information? We do not need to list all Hall of Fame members as that list will grow and will be again removed at some point. We also do no need to list every general manager, president or head coach of the team. Same goes to NBA or division titles and retired numbers. Some of the templates even go against MOS:CAPS and include practice facilities in the "Arenas" section, which is not relevant at all to the franchise. Some of the players have 4, 5 or even more templates at the bottom of their pages and that just causes template creep, which should be avoided. Please give your opinion on this matter. – Sabbatino (talk) 15:41, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I think retired numbers are pretty relevant to a team, but list the name with the number, as most casual readers wouldn't readily recognize a specific number. In fact, List of New York Knicks retired numbers  would be a great list, and then only a link to the list article is needed. Lots of HOFers are not that relevant to each team they played on, so they can be removed from the template; they are usually listed in the team article.  Most (all?) teams have something like List of New York Knicks head coaches, which make listing each coach unnecessary.  I think people list every GM and president because they are too lazy too create a list article, or maybe the list would fail WP:LISTN.  At any rate, I'm ok with them removed from the templates.—Bagumba (talk) 18:10, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Actually, the one thing this project did decisively decide on with franchise templates is the head coaches should not be listed. This is the whole reason the NBA coach templates were created in 2013. With existing templates for each franchise's coach history, a list of coaches on the franchise template is duplicative and just results in a second template that is less clear on coach pages. Discussion here. Rikster2 (talk) 19:38, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I do not think that listing each player with a retired number in the template is good. Noting retired numbers with a link to team's page under the "Franchise" group would be better. Same goes with draft picks. And what about the NBA or division titles? Should that be omitted? As I wrote before, these templates are supposed to include only key facts and not excessive detail. – Sabbatino (talk) 04:49, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

All-Defensive NBA Teams Most Selections Article/Table
I noticed that the structure of the All-Defensive NBA Teams Most Selections Article/Table lists the players based on how many defensive first-team selections instead of their total defensive team selections, in this case, 4 first-team defensive selections. This is different from the Most Selections Article/Table of All-NBA teams where the players are listed based on their total all-NBA team selections, in this case, 10 total all-nba team selections. I have already arranged the figures in the All-Defensive NBA Teams Most Selections Article/Table to show the total selections of the players in the table first from the left, so that it will be easier to see who has the most All-NBA Defensive Team selections, similar to the All-NBA Teams Most Selections Article/Table and I would just like to ask some input on my proposal to change the All-Defensive NBA Teams Most Selections Article/Table to reflect players with at least 5 total All-Defensive NBA Team selections instead of the current 4 All-Defensive first team selections. This way, we can truly say that the table shows the most selections. Nintendoswitchfan (talk) 16:15, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

Please weigh in on a proposal to merge two basketball infoboxes
Discussion here - Templates for discussion/Log/2017 August 29. Please weigh in as there may be modifications to the base template needed. Thanks. Rikster2 (talk) 23:32, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Front office tenure in bio infobox
There is a discussion on whether front office tenures should be added to a bio's infobox at Template_talk:Infobox_basketball_biography.—Bagumba (talk) 07:07, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Training camp invites
Is the standard procedure to not add training camp contracts until the team announces them, typically in later September? That's seems to be what came out of Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_National_Basketball_Association/Archive_26. Bryce Alford had announced on Instagram a while back that he had signed with OKC, and an LA Times writer tweeted a few weeks later that it was only a training camp deal.. I guess it's typical that a team won't announce anything until right before camp?—Bagumba (talk) 12:18, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's when the team announces them, either in a press release, on their official Twitter (the team's not the player's) or by releasing their training camp roster (I think only the Mavs have done this at this point). I usually also accept that it is official if the team adds the player to their official roster without an announcement (Jeremy Morgan on the Grizzlies is an example) or if the signing is announced on the official NBA.com transaction page. These are all forms of official announcements. Rikster2 (talk) 12:25, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Undrafted players
Just noticed that Category:Undrafted National Basketball Association players was CfDed and deleted. I'm surprised a list doesnt exist of NBA players who went undrafted, but I know we add these players to their respective draft articles.—Bagumba (talk) 02:51, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
 * That needs to be reinstated. There was no notification to the project and I would guess no discussion from anyone active inthe project. Rikster2 (talk) 10:33, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, just looked and this discussion, as well as a prior one on NFL players involved no one active on those projects (and minimal discussion at all). Once again the work of professional category editors. Rikster2 (talk) 10:36, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
 * That is indeed silly. Just because the same category for the NFL was deleted in August 2017, that does not mean that the same should be applied to other leagues. And the reason for deleting these 4 templates is also absurd. – Sabbatino (talk) 12:48, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I've been editing on Wikipedia for more than ten years and started hundreds of articles, so being called a "professional category editor" is a personal attack.--TM 12:57, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I was more talking about the people that chimed in on the recommendation. Get a grip and inform relevant projects next time. Rikster2 (talk) 12:58, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
 * User:Bearcat has been editing since 2003. User:Arbor to SJ since 2007. Again, personal attacks on other edits won't be tolerated. User:Nyttend since 2006. Get a grip and realize that a series of experienced editors made the decision to delete the categories.--TM 13:00, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
 * So since you have been around so long, help me understand why you chose NOT to inform the project that a relevant category was nominated for deletion? Poor form. Also, if you think "professional category editor" is an attack your skin is awfully thin. If I personally attacked you, you'd know it. Rikster2 (talk) 13:18, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

It seems this was nominated before at Categories_for_discussion/Log/2010_April_26, where it was kept. Does anyone intend to repopulate the category if it is recreated? (Not sure if there is an automated undo) If so, we can propose to reopen the discussion at WP:DRV. Honestly, I never had a firm understanding on which categories are deemed defining, and the deletion process is loose compared to articles. Maybe time is better spent just creating a list? At least the AfD process lists past discussions for reference.—Bagumba (talk) 03:46, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I propose DRV and add the similar NHL category. Rikster2 (talk) 10:06, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I've asked the closing admin to consider reopening.—Bagumba (talk) 07:22, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I went and created List of National Basketball Association undrafted players. Feel free to expand or modify it.  It currently lists undrafted played since 2010.—Bagumba (talk) 11:21, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

I thought it was odd how everyone voted keep in the previous discussion in 2010 and then basically everyone voted delete on the recent discussions. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 01:09, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

DRV I've opened a DRV at Deletion_review/Log/2017_September_10.—Bagumba (talk) 06:40, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
 * They have been relisted at Categories_for_discussion/Log/2017_September_16 for more input. Please head there to give your comments. -DJSasso (talk) 15:19, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

Repeating team links in bio's infobox
As far as I know, the convention in NBA bios is to not duplicate team links in the "Career history" section of the infobox. at Allen Iverson wants to repeat the links: |"all items in a list are typically wikilinked for convenience." MOS:DUPLINK allows repeats when the list "is expected to be parsed for particular bits of data, not read from top to bottom". Links are not repeated in FA Juwan Howard and GAs like LeBron James, Manny Harris and Yi Jianlian. I won't lose sleep either way on this, but let's just be consistent. Personally, I skim it from top to bottom, and the non-duplicated links highlight teams with which a player had multiple stints.—Bagumba (talk) 04:50, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Only linking once in the infobox is how it should be. That's the conventional way I've been editing infoboxes for years now. DaHuzyBru (talk) 05:18, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
 * It is usually up to the WikiProject on how they handle their infoboxes. For example, the NFL project links every instance, because that is their preferred format. However, that is changing and some people are starting to adopt our project's approach – link it once. As for NBA, I also think that linking once is enough. – Sabbatino (talk) 07:58, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Definitely just first instance. The list of teams in the infobox is never so long that you can't find the link to a team article quickly. Rikster2 (talk) 11:00, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Expansion of the National Basketball Association
Help is needed at Expansion of the National Basketball Association as one particular user is edit-warring and does not engage in a discussion. In addition, he/she adds details, which are excessive, useless and speculative. – Sabbatino (talk) 13:18, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

National teams in infoboxes
There is a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Basketball regarding the listing of national teams in the infobox. Please give your opinion as last time nobody took interest in such discussion and at this very moment one specific user is stalking all my edits and reverts without discussing. – Sabbatino (talk) 14:55, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

New champions table
The table we have on the List of NBA champions article does not look at all like the ones for the Lists of NFL Super Bowl champions, or the MLB World Series champions, or the NHL Stanley Cup champions, so I'm working on an improved version as seen in my sandbox. It still needs some buildup, but I'll add Basketball Reference refs eventually. Stay tuned! Z.I. Barbour (talk) 22:35, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

NBA champion in infobox
With recent news that Anderson Varejão, who was cut midseason by the Warriors, will receive a ring from the team, it's a good time to formalize our criteria for listing "NBA champion" in a player's infobox. From the last discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_National_Basketball_Association/Archive_30, is there agreement that
 * 1) We do not list "NBA champion" just because a player received a ring.
 * 2) A player must be on the team's playoff roster at the end of the championship.

For point #2, a player like Kevon Looney is listed as "NBA champion" even though he was listed as inactive during the entire Finals. Teams are allowed 15 players on their roster, and up to 13 active for any given game. Note that previously, teams were limited to a 12-man roster for the playoffs, which they had to name before the playoffs began; there was not a per game concept of active/inactive players. I'm not sure how we have handled those players before who were under contract still, but not on the champion's playoff roster.—Bagumba (talk) 04:41, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
 * My point for Varejão is – do you really think he considers himself a champion? There is no way Varejão would claim he is a championship player as a member of the Cavs (2016) or Warriors (2017). He may have received sentimental-value championship rings, but that doesn't equal champion. Looney was a member of the Warriors all throughout the playoffs – doesn't matter if he never suited up. He'll also be formally introduced at the ring ceremony this month, no doubt. Varejão is a rare, very unusual case of where he was on future championship-winning squads during the regular season two seasons in a row. We need to exempt him from "NBA champion" in infobox IMO. DaHuzyBru (talk) 06:57, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree with DaHuzyBru. Looney should count. You can bet if Curry or Durant had been hurt at the end of the regular season but the Ws has won the title that they’d be considered part of the championship team. The waters are muddied with Looney not being a rotation player. That is wholly different than a player released or traded before the Playoffs start like Varejão. It is a nice gesture for the Ws to give him a ring, but that doesn’t mean he goes on the template. Rikster2 (talk) 07:02, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
 * It's less important how Varajao sees himself, but how reliable sources refer to him.—Bagumba (talk) 11:22, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

As another precedent, David Blatt received a ring from the Cavs but his infobox does not list him as an "NBA champion".—Bagumba (talk) 11:13, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Here is some guidance from the NBA. In the 2017-18 NBA Guide, the list the 2017 champion Warriors (page 51) and don’t list Varajao but do list Looney. On page 250 in the Cavs’ entry they do not list Blatt. In cases where we have NBA POV we should use it IMO. Rikster2 (talk) 15:14, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

I've always been a fan of how the NHL deals with getting your name on the cup which is play in 50% of the regular season games or play in the final series of the playoffs. -DJSasso (talk) 15:32, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Rivalry AfD
Please comment at Articles for deletion/Ball–Fox rivalry on whether Ball–Fox rivalry (the rivalry between Lonzo Ball and De'Aaron Fox) is notable.—Bagumba (talk) 07:18, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

Please chime in on proposal for consensus at WP:CBB
Not exactly an NBA topic, but there is lots of overlap of editors and NBA is front-burner right now to college’s back-burner. I’d like to elicit opinions on “future recruit” sections in college season articles. Discussion here. Thanks. Rikster2 (talk) 16:34, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

San Antonio Stars' relocation
The San Antonio Stars page was moved to Las Vegas WNBA team without any discussion. The WNBA website links the Las Vegas team to the press release about the relocation, but the San Antonio Stars website still exists. Should these two teams have separate articles like the Seattle SuperSonics and Oklahoma City Thunder or it should follow the same path as New Jersey/Brooklyn Nets? The WNBA implies that these are two different teams and the Seattle/Oklahoma City situation would be the logical solution since all other WNBA teams' pages on Wikipedia have different articles, for example, Detroit Shock/Tulsa Shock/Dallas Wings. Furthermore, the user that made the move has a "repuation" of edit warring in other articles and has been blocked for such behavior. Any opinions on this? – Sabbatino (talk) 12:41, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm not up on the background. Do you have sources that say they will be separate entities after the move? In these situations, you could boldly revert (not edit war), open an WP:RM if you are relatively sure, or discuss here if you are unsure (but risk potentially having to rehash at RM).—Bagumba (talk) 12:55, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
 * For starters, San Antonio Stars and Las Vegas teams have different Facebook (San Antonio Stars and Las Vegas) and Twitter (San Antonio Stars and Las Vegas) accounts. Furthermore, new owners is another reason for 2 separate articles. And the histories of other WNBA teams is also a valid argument. It is also the same situation as SuperSonics/Thunder, Atlanta Thrashers/Winnipeg Jets, Dakota Wizards/Santa Cruz Warriors, when the teams were bought by new people and moved elsewhere. If it was a simple renaming then it could be kept in the same page, but not now. – Sabbatino (talk) 14:18, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I've always believed they should be separate pages for every move. The biggest reason I think some are not split is inertia and no one wanting to take the time to painstakingly separate the information into two good articles. Some argue that they are the same topic so they should be the same page, but topics are split into chunks all the time and a city move is a logical splitting place. -DJSasso (talk) 14:21, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I could see the argument for using summary style, except in the early years after a move, due weight would effectively mean that most of the content is repeated, but that can be mitigated with some advanced use of transclusion to minimize duplicate copies. If someone wants to take the effort to do that and effectively show that there is little duplication that needs to be maintained, you might be better off boldly doing it first instead of going through a bureaucratic RM where many are likely to not grasp the details and will just !vote for how things have always been done.—Bagumba (talk) 14:49, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I think it is worth pointing out that this philosophy is just one of many areas where the hockey project and the basketball projects differ. There does not need to be consistency, and if there does then you guys should adopt navboxes instead of succession boxes as we do. I am kidding, because we wouldn’t ask you to do that. I respect the argument that there should be separation of these articles, but the truth is we have many points of deviation among sport projects. Rikster2 (talk) 15:03, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Technically guidelines already say everyone should use succession boxes for awards etc and not navboxes. Y'all just ignore guidelines on that. But haha yeah lets not get down that rabbithole. -DJSasso (talk) 15:43, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Really? Didn’t know that - can you link me? At any rate, that’s kind of dumb because succession boxes look like total garbage. Rikster2 (talk) 17:03, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I'll have to go look for it, its been awhile since I have been in a debate about navboxes. But the basic reasoning is that per wp:navbox you aren't supposed to have links in navboxes that wouldn't otherwise appear in the body of a "perfect" version of the article the navbox is being used on. And award winners or people that have held the same job etc aren't likely to appear on the article of someone else who held the position, except the person before and after they won it/held it. It is to prevent over-linking too many articles at the bottom of the page. -DJSasso (talk) 18:09, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
 * OK (I believe you, am just curious to read the guideline). There is an opposite argument but I won't jump down the rabbit hole at this time. Rikster2 (talk) 18:27, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
 * AFAIK, everything about succession boxes is mentioned only in essays. Whether they be navs or s-boxes, my bigger concern is agreeing on constraints to remove the trivial ones that cause clutter. Anyhow, lets make a separate thread if this topic continues.—Bagumba (talk) 00:48, 26 October 2017 (UTC)


 * I know several Hoops project editors merged most of the D-League articles in 2016 so that the franchises were all on one article. I opposed it via WP:NOTPAPER but they argued that the majority of the NBA articles were merged with the exception of the Vancouver-Memphis and Seattle-OKC moves (see Syracuse Nationals, Tri-Cities Blackhawks, Minneapolis Lakers, Rochester Royals, etc.). The WNBA does not appear to use their current merged method so if you wanted to argue consistency, then they should be separate (unless the consensus here changes). Yosemiter (talk) 14:51, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
 * In my opinion a franchise should always be one article, and offshoots could be created as an exception if there is significant history associated with the “old” name (like the Seattle SuperSonics/OKC Thunder). In the case of the D-League franchises Yosemite’s mentions, there is little history associated with these old incarnations so it really didn't make sense to split. I think the default for WNBA (which is covered under this project after all) should be not to split unless somebody makes the case the Stars (who were originally the “Silver Stars”) have enough history to warrant a separate sub-article. At any rate, we should wait until more details on the Vegas move come out before moving the page or creating a new article IMO. Rikster2 (talk) 15:00, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Actually, they were originally the Utah Starzz. Yosemiter (talk) 15:38, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Even one year teams could have, in most of the higher leagues anyway, nicely fleshed out full articles. They would just be all based on one season as opposed to many seasons. Teams that have longer histories just cut out a lot of notable events in a season that would be left in an article about a team with a shorter existence. -DJSasso (talk) 15:50, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
 * That would be a season article, not a franchise one. Different philosophies and that’s .... OK. Rikster2 (talk) 16:58, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes and no, season articles are just the information that has been split out from team articles per WP:SUMMARYSTYLE. If a team only lasted for one year, it wouldn't necessarily need to be split out. That being said, it wasn't really even all the stuff in a season article that I was talking about. See Seattle Pilots for a well fleshed out article on a single season sports team. -DJSasso (talk) 18:01, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Merge or separate? We should probably come to some sort of consensus since it appears User:SportsFan007 began moving pages of former teams to titles of "History of...". As far as I am aware, only the American football and Baseball projects use historical pages in that manner. Basketball seems to prefer single article per franchise regardless of relocation with the WNBA being an outlier right now. Yosemiter (talk) 15:40, 27 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Separate pages have been used for other WNBA relocations (i.e.: Detroit Shock>Tulsa Shock>Dallas Wings, Orlando Miracle>Connecticut Sun, and Utah Starzz>San Antonio Stars). Why should this one be different? SportsFan007  ( talk ) 15:50, 27 October 2017 (UTC)SportsFan007
 * Because part of this discussion is whether those should be merged into their current iterations as stated in the above comments and per the standards that the Basketball project currently use. As the WNBA falls under this project, and the WNBA team pages are currently not in line with the rest of the project, consensus will have to decide. Be patient and please stop being hasty. We have months before it all needs to be settle before next season. Yosemiter (talk) 15:55, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Understood, I’ll wait until a consensus is reached. Also, about the edit warring, I’ve have making an effort to improve my edit behavior since those blockings. SportsFan007  ( talk ) 16:01, 27 October 2017 (UTC)SportFan007

A lot of WNBA pages were created by users who weren’t necessarily following/seeking consensus with other Basketball articles so I wouldn’t read too much into various iterations existing (its WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS). Rikster2 (talk) 16:12, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Keep one franchise article with exceptions allowed for “old” franchises with considerable history. Is my vote (in other words, what we currently do with NBA teams). in my opinion, a history of a franchise includes all its previous incarnations, though I appreciate that some exceptions (like the Seattle SuperSonics) may apply. Yes, you “could” write an article about (for example) the Cincinnati Royals, but honestly there isn’t all that much there. I think this gets even more pronounced when you go to leagues like the G League or the WNBA who get a lot less press coverage than the NBA.  Rikster2 (talk) 16:12, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Game logs in teams' season pages
I see that users tend to add player's full name in the game logs. For example, this. I think that listing player's surname through piping is enough (Antetokounmpo instead of Giannis Antetokounmpo in this situation), because listing full name is excessive. In a situation when two players in the team have the same surname, we can always accompany it with letter of his first name (Jermaine O'Neal and Shaquille O'Neal would be J. O'Neal and S. O'Neal). Any opinions on this matter? – Sabbatino (talk) 11:11, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Sounds reasonable. I think only surname is used in college (e.g. 2016–17 UCLA Bruins men's basketball team). That being said, the full name convention for NBA articles might go back as far as 2011–12 (e.g. 2011–12 Los Angeles Lakers season).—Bagumba (talk) 12:41, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Was there any discussion or some user just started implementing it? Currently it looks inconsistent when one statistic field has full name, and others have just surnames when 2 or more players record the same amount of something. – Sabbatino (talk) 12:26, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't know. I usually don't do game log updates.—Bagumba (talk) 12:33, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Erie BayHawks/Lakeland Magic again
Would any regular project contributors care to comment on the odd situation of the BayHawks at Talk:Erie BayHawks (2008–2017). Merge as two franchises/one team or have separate pages for all franchises? 02:30, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

Teams by lowest regular season winning percentage?
Did we ever have an article that listed the teams with the lowest regular season winning percentage? I thought I had once seen a list like that on Wikipedia, but maybe I'm wrong. We do have List of NBA teams by single season win percentage. That article lists the best teams. Zagal e jo^^^ 16:15, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't believe such an article has existed since I've been active on Wikipedia (2006). It would be a reasonable addition to the set of NBA articles.  Due to differences in the number of games in the regular season, there are presently three teams listed at NBA regular season records for woeful performances: worst percentage (.106 by the Charlotte Bobcats in 2011–12), most losses (73 by the Philadelphia 76ers in 1972–73), and fewest wins (6 by the Providence Steamrollers in 1947–48). But percentage of games won (or lost) is the proper metric for team performance. &mdash; Myasuda (talk) 22:03, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the info! Zagal e jo^^^ 15:46, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

AfD Discussion - “Category:African-American basketball players”
Please go to Categories for discussion/Log/2017 December 10 to discuss. Thanks. Rikster2 (talk) 09:31, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Team's uniform in infobox
There is some sort of "problem" with jerseys in the infobox. The NBA changed from Adidas to Nike, which mean that home and road jerseys are practically gone as some of the teams use what they want in their games. For example, the Nets used white jerseys in their game in Brooklyn on October 31, but then used black jerseys on November 14. Same can be said about the Lakers when they used purple jerseys in their home game. I do know that this is a tricky situation, but changes should be reflected in the infobox since the current parameter became obsolete for NBA teams. Any ideas? – Sabbatino (talk) 16:01, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Could we just remove the text that says "Home" and "Away"? Zagal e jo^^^ 17:56, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
 * That makes the most sense to me. -DJSasso (talk) 18:42, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
 * This would need a change at Template:Infobox basketball club and it would certainly affect non-NBA teams. I wonder if there is a way to name them accordingly? – Sabbatino (talk) 20:15, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Could probably add a switch to the box with a parameter nba=yes to determine if we show those or not. -DJSasso (talk) 15:56, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Or actually wouldn't even need that parameter cause you could just match on the content of league= -DJSasso (talk) 15:57, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

Advanced template editor needed at Template:Infobox basketball draft
Following the creation of 2017 NBA G League Draft, some changes need to be made to Template:Infobox basketball draft so that "G League" complies with the dleague parameter, which is why I request someone with infobox experience. Something to link the 2017 page from the infobox in 2016 NBA Development League Draft would also be greatly appreciated.  JTP (talk • contribs) 00:04, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

In the news
I found this Ringer article quite hilarious: "Wikipedia’s Best Worst NBA Photos Are Modern Art".—Bagumba (talk) 08:53, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
 * The notes on Shareef Abdur-Rahim's image is classic ( you got a shout out for your March 2016 explanation!) This Ringer article just highlights how bad many NBA player pages are, especially those that were created in the early days of Wikipedia and were never maintained or freshened-up. It also highlights how bad cropping is, and just because a player features in a wide shot, doesn't mean we should use it as a feature image. My favorite "Best Worst NBA Photo" is Lance Stephenson's – I'm surprised it wasn't featured in the article! Good for a laugh, thanks Bagumba. DaHuzyBru (talk) 09:17, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Not in the article, but my all-time favorite was when Stan Van Gundy main picture used to be File:StanVanGundy_20050723.jpg.—Bagumba (talk) 11:06, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Time to make due
Now that Milton Doyle has made the NBA, I have scrounged around to see what pictures I might have accidentally taken of him when Fred VanVleet and Ron Baker (basketball) came to town about 3 years ago. It turns out that we have three bad choices:
 * 1) A clear picture of his back: File:20150111 Milton Doyle watches free throw shooter.jpg
 * 2) An out of focus picture of his side: File:20150111 Milton Doyle and Darius Carter reach for loose ball.jpg
 * 3) An obscured picture that I believe to be him in the background from the front: File:20150111 Ron Baker (4).JPG

Advice welcome.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:06, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
 * who have made multiple edits to the page.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:25, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I don’t love any of them, but the only one I see as acceptable for use is the one where he is reaching for a loose ball. Rikster2 (talk) 01:15, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I second that notion. Just need to mention him at the left for now. At least until we find something better later on (maybe with the Nets?). – AGreatPhoenixSunsFan (talk) 05:27, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

NBA Career Statistics
There are still lots of NBA All-Stars and NBA champions whose Wikipedia pages lack NBA career statistics, I suggest we go ahead and put those in. Nintendoswitchfan (talk) 08:30, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I actually second that notion! – AGreatPhoenixSunsFan (talk) 05:28, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

I'll compile a list of the NBA All-Stars soon then post it here. Nintendoswitchfan (talk) 04:54, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

NBA All-Stars who need Career Statistics
Here is a complete list of NBA All-Stars who don't have NBA career statistics in their respective articles: Billy Knight, Steve Johnson, Dan Issel, Tyrone Hill, Bob Harrison, Alex Groza, Rickey Green, Billy Gabor, Ray Felix, James Donaldson, Antonio Davis, Jack Coleman, Len Chappell, Don Buse, Bill Bradley, Bob Boozer, John Block, Butch Beard, Dick Barnett, Scott Wedman, Jimmy Walker, Jerry Sloan, Paul Silas, Frank Selvy, Ken Sears, Jeff Ruland, Jack Marin,Don Kojis, John Johnson, Eddie Johnson, Rod Hundley, Jack George, Dwight Eddleman, Walter Dukes, Kevin Duckworth, Archie Clark, Joe Caldwell, Frank Brian, Leo Barnhorst, Tom Van Arsdale, Dick Van Arsdale, Maurice Stokes, Charlie Scott, Dan Roundfield, Jeff Mullins, George McGinnis, Bob Love, Johnny Kerr, Bob Kauffman, Phil Chenier, Bill Bridges, Sidney Wicks, Guy Rodgers, Arnie Risen, Michael Ray Richardson, Willie Naulls, Maurice Lucas, Clyde Lovellette, Bobby Jones, Mel Hutchins, Spencer Haywood, Connie Hawkins, Johnny Green, Dick Garmaker, Bob Davies, Billy Cunningham, Paul Westphal, Bobby Wanzer, Gene Shue, Don Ohl, Rudy LaRusso, Cliff Hagan, Tom Gola, Wayne Embry, George Yardley, Jack Twyman, Neil Johnston, Bailey Howell, Larry Costello, Dick McGuire, Ed Macauley, Dave Bing, Bill Sharman, Larry Foust, Rick Barry, Hal Greer, Paul Arizin, Elgin Baylor, Dolph Schayes. I checked every single Wikipedia page of the NBA All-stars in the Wikipedia article on the list of NBA All-Stars. If possible, let's all work together to add the NBA career statistics for these NBA players that are missing in their respective Wikipedia articles. Thank you very much. Nintendoswitchfan (talk) 09:37, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

Content removal at Royce White
I need some impartial eyes on a content removal dispute at Royce White.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:33, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Some of that material should at least be reworded for clarity. For example: "White claims a business style of social entrepreneurship. A concept that is becoming very popular amongst millennial entrepreneurs." I don't know what this means, and I'm not even sure where the source says anything about millennial entrepreneurs. (In addition, the second part is just a sentence fragment.) Zagal e jo^^^ 04:47, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Kyrie Irving nationality
There is currently a new discussion on Kyrie Irving's nationality at Talk:Kyrie Irving. Please provide comment at the talk page so we can come to a consensus – we need more users to contribute. Cheers. DaHuzyBru (talk) 07:50, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

Specific positions on team rosters
What do people think about edits like this that change a team's roster to have specific positions e.g. PG instead of generic G. The source link that is usually listed is to the NBA.com team page, which only lists generic positions. We could use basketball-reference.com, but the positions listed can sometimes be quite different. For example, Julius Randle is listed as F-C on NBA.com, but basketball-reference.com has him a C. I'm not a frequent editor of these templates, so I don't have a strong opinion yet.—Bagumba (talk) 05:00, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
 * stick with the generic positions. It’s what the teams list and it avoids 1) clogging up the roster with PG/SG and 2) avoids the arguments of things like “Kyrie Irving sometimes plays off the ball somwe will call him a shooting guard” when templates aren’t sourced to that level of detail anyway. Rikster2 (talk) 12:41, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Use of bold in introduction to season articles
There is a discussion ongoing at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Football League to change the use of "bold" lettering in the introduction to season articles. As this affects a protocol that has been in use by the NBA project and other professional sports projects, please feel free to add your view at the discussion so that a consensus can hopefully be reached one way or the other. Cbl62 (talk) 18:06, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

Text alignment of statistics
What was the reason of introducing the "right" side alignment at Template:NBA player statistics start and Template:NBA coach statistics start? I changed it to "center", but some rogue user just came and reverted it at one of the templates without giving any explanation. Statistics are usually centered at sports pages with the exception of year and team, but this was a surprise to me that NBA's statistics are aligned right and left. Any opinions would be appreciated. – Sabbatino (talk) 18:21, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Looking at it with it centered, a big difference I see is that the decimal points are no longer aligned, which looks weird for players when the have a mix of single- and double figure averages. I'll revert back to status quo in the interim until we see if a new consensus develops.—Bagumba (talk) 20:28, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I see similar issue with coach stats, esp. playoff stats, when there is a mix of double- and single-figure wins or losses, and the ones and tens digits are no longer aligned.—Bagumba (talk) 20:56, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Everything is fine with the center alignment. I just tried both variants in my sandbox and everything is aligned as it supposed to. Just because it does not fit your personal taste, that does not mean it is bad. – Sabbatino (talk) 13:29, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Maybe it's browser specific? Do you have a link to your side-by-side comparison?  Thanks.—Bagumba (talk) 14:37, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
 * You can look at coach's example here. – Sabbatino (talk) 17:30, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
 * In Kerr's example, the one's digit of the losses, e.g. the "9" and the "5" in "15", are not aligned when using center alignment. For player's stats, similar issue would occur with points, rebounds assists if a player averaged a mix of double- and single-figures in various seasons.—Bagumba (talk) 15:14, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Looks like this is browser specific like you said before since it is aligned for both coaches and players in my browser. – Sabbatino (talk) 15:32, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

Coach's achievements and honors
Is it appropriate to add this to the coach's infobox? WP:NBASTYLE does not mention anything about this so I figured this is minor and can be removed, but wanted to double-check it before I went ahead. – Sabbatino (talk) 13:57, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I think it's the de facto convention to include All-Star head coach selections in infoboxes. I don't have any objections to it, but it's probably not as prestigious as being an All-Star player. —Bagumba (talk) 14:59, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

Yugoslavia and Serbia. Again...
There is a discussion about the separation of Yugoslavia's and Serbia's records at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Basketball. Your opinions are welcome. P.s. there is also a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Olympics about the issue, but it takes up all sports. – Sabbatino (talk) 20:13, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

Project to add cites to "Franchise leaders" content
The "Franchise leaders" sections of the various articles within Category:National Basketball Association accomplishments and records by team are unsourced. A few articles are regularly updated by IP editors, but remain unsourced. I just tagged many of these section accordingly.

Maintenance, and possibly creation, of these section trend back to Special:Contributions/JMichael22 and go stale in Nov 2016. That editor is now blocked per WP:SOCK.

So net, if anyone is looking for a project, perhaps you could rehab one of these article sections with sourcing (Sports Reference?). Then we could point the IPs to that specific article as their model for adding citations to their edits on the sibling articles. UW Dawgs (talk) 03:42, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Big Three (Cleveland Cavaliers)
THis AfD discussion could use some help reaching a sure-fire consensus. It's already been relisted once, and is maybe on the verge of doing so again. Any input is appreciated. Thanks. Mungo Kitsch (talk) 23:55, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
 * My take is that a lot of people !voted delete influenced by the fact the article was WP:UGLY and they're hating on the media for using such a non-creative name. I personal don't care enough about this specific one to resurrect it myself, but I do think it is WP:SURMOUNTABLE and would likely have a different fate if it was better written about the group of three players, and less about them individually or the team.—Bagumba (talk) 06:20, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Tempate:NBAbox suggestions
While digging through some old templates I uncovered an old template initially pushed through during the 2008 playoffs to slim down the article length (It happened to have been made by the same person who created the NHLPlayoffs template. It was never adopted, but I propose that we'd start with the older playoff articles that don't have such templates (Like the 1993 Playoffs), and move progressivey downwards to today's articles. –Piranha249 (talk) 22:41, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't have a strong opinion other than consistency, but why not follow recent formats like at 2017 NBA Playoffs?—Bagumba (talk) 06:10, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Executive history in infobox
Why aren't executive/managerial stints listed in infoboxes? This absence is particularly striking for individuals like Jerry West, whose executive career is regarded as one of the greatest ever, yet his infobox provides almost no details on it. Lizard (talk) 11:45, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I’d be up for it, but we would need to define “executive” pretty tightly. What jobs are we talking about here. I would also be in favor of adding a coaching record parameter for folks who both played and coached (possibly with 2-3 fields possible (pro, college, wildcard field for a second major league) Rikster2 (talk) 12:33, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
 * There were discussions about this here, here and here, but none of those ended with a consensus. The main reason that executive career is not listed is because currently the infobox has a parameter for "Playing career" and "Coaching career". If we were to add a field for "Executive career" then we would have to decide which positions would apply for that. Positions, such as scout, consultant should not be listed as most of the time there are no reliable sources about them, while president or general manager are easily verifiable. – Sabbatino (talk) 13:25, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I'd say however Basketball-Reference defines executive. Jerry West's executive history. Lizard  (talk) 13:27, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Basketball-Reference's executive directory defines executive as those "in charge of player personnel decisions (usually the general manager)." That's pretty cut-and-dried. Lizard  (talk) 14:15, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Any way we could combine "executive career" and "administrative career" for college AD jobs? This would help assuage concerns about converting college coaches to Infobox:Basketball Biography from Infobox:College coach. Or am I asking too much? I think if we have player years, coach years and executive years we need to ensure it doesn't look sloppy, per Sabbatino's concern raised above. We also have "referee" parms, though I don't think there are any cases where all four sets (player, coach, executive, referee) would appear for the same person. We will have cases like West and Larry Bird where three of the four would be present. Rikster2 (talk) 14:23, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm thinking we confine "executive" strictly to the list at B-R, which would of course exclude college athletic director stints. I don't really have an opinion on anything past that since I'm not too familiar with this project's infoboxes. Lizard  (talk) 14:39, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I am just trying to think more broadly. Another objective is to get Basketball Biography used for all basketball figures. A stopper has been that college coach provides info that basketball biography does not (like admin career). Just trying to see if we can kill 2 birds with one stone since this box is used so widely. Rikster2 (talk) 14:47, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
 * That Basketball-Reference.com source is outdated. Artūras Karnišovas is the current general manager of the Nuggets, but B-R.com lists Tim Connelly. I suspect that the same can be applied to every other team. – Sabbatino (talk) 14:55, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
 * If we're just using it as a benchmark then it doesn't really matter if it's outdated. Lizard  (talk) 15:43, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

List of NBA Finals head coaches
Should List of NBA Finals head coaches be up for deletion? Firstly, there are no sources. And secondly, this information can be found in "xxxx NBA Finals" pages. – Sabbatino (talk) 20:16, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I suspect it can pass WP:LISTN. In any event, the same info is at List of NBA champions, so I redirected it.  Kinda useless to duplicate unless substantial prose is added. Thanks for flagging it.—Bagumba (talk) 12:17, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Navbox TfDs
You are invited to comment on a couple of All-Star event navboxes at Templates_for_discussion/Log/2018_February_24 and Templates_for_discussion/Log/2018_February_24.—Bagumba (talk) 12:20, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Clay Thompson RfD
There is an RfD proposing to retarget Clay Thompson to Klay Thompson at Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2018_March_20.—Bagumba (talk) 07:04, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Cody Zeller
Recently some user added information at Zeller's "Personal life" section about his Christian faith. However, after reading it looks like these particular additions give undue weight. Any opinions? – Sabbatino (talk) 17:20, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Are you referring to any mention of his religion, or just the part about the prayers? For the prayers part, I don't even see his name in the source.—Bagumba (talk) 17:56, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
 * The prayers part. This particular part targets people of other faith or no faith and belittles them. In addition, after looking at that source's other articles it is apparent that this particular source is meant for religious fanatics, which is another reason to avoid it. – Sabbatino (talk) 18:05, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
 * The "christiantoday" ref does not mention Zeller at all, and nowhere in the "sportsspectrum" ref does it mention born-again Christian. I'd be up for removing it all. DaHuzyBru (talk) 18:11, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Seems like synthesis to me, which is common when it comes to citing peoples' faith. I've seen claims of people being "devout Christians" supported by a tweet they had posted that read something like "please keep me in your prayers." Lizard  (talk) 18:59, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Funny how this site seen that article as "belittling" to people of no faith and how a typical Christian website is for "religious fanatics". Lin was only asking for prayers, he wasn't forcing his religion on anyone. He can pray all he wants, as can anyone else, and that won't change unbelieving friends or family, that's a matter of their own beliefs or religious convictions. That's not "belittling". Belittling would be, "better pray for my friend because he's an atheist therefor he must be an idiot", pretty much the same as calling all Christians who read a particular website "religion fanatics". After reading the article it is correct Zeller is not mentioned so it has been removed. But the "tolerant" liberals of this site crack me up. Anything Christian is "fanatic", anything Christian Right wing is "hate speech" and praying for someone is "belittling". Insanity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WheresMyFC (talk • contribs) 06:37, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
 * When a certain website pushes POV toward some subject then you cannot really say that it is not targeted at specific group of people. In Wikipedia we try to cover everything as neutrally as possible, but when you see remarks such as seeking prayers for someone that is irreligious and trying to convert them then that becomes a problem. And no, I am not liberal if that is what you want to say. Most things are different in Europe and what you might call liberal in the U.S. would not be liberal in Europe. – Sabbatino (talk) 08:40, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

''The blessings Cody received from his older brothers, however, outweighed the physical pain, as he credits Luke and Tyler with helping him eventually accept Christ as a high school upperclassman.

“Luke and Tyler were big influences,” Cody said. “It really helped for them to pave the way.”'' — Preceding unsigned comment added by WheresMyFC (talk • contribs) 06:47, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Nowhere in this source it says that he is a born-again Christian. Personal synthesis does not belong here. – Sabbatino (talk) 08:40, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
 * One more thing – you should refrain from personal attacks as you did here. – Sabbatino (talk) 08:42, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

I removed the info citing this discussion and the user reverted me. What's the go from here? DaHuzyBru (talk) 06:00, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I think we could at least say that he grew up in a Lutheran family: . I'd feel uncomfortable saying that he is a Christian or born-again Christian without sustained evidence for it. All the sources about his faith (as far as I can tell) come from his college years. But a person's beliefs can certainly change over time. (This is a general problem on Wikipedia. People latch onto old interviews as evidence of someone's current state of mind.) Zagal e jo^^^ 15:22, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Player position
For active player bios, it seems that we generally allow whatever basketball-reference.com lists. They list LeBron James as SG/PF/SF, but recently changed him back to just SF. I can appreciate the logic that this has been his primary position. For example, we do this for retired players e.g. Magic Johnson is only list as a PG even though he was a PF in his final season, Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant are only listed as SGs though they ended their careers as SFs. How should we handle active players? Should exceptions be allowed like for James to pare down positions even if a reliable source like b-r.com lists them?—Bagumba (talk) 16:58, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Has LeBron played all 3 of those positions at some point this season? I'm not too familiar with how frequently basketball players shift positions, but if does so, say, game-to-game, then I say list any position he's liable to play. If he's primarily only played one position this season then I'd say list only that position. Lizard  (talk) 17:30, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Basketball-reference.com lists James as a PF for this season. He hasn't been listed as a SG since his rookie year. I don't update positions much, mostly just spot checking when people add new ones.  However, I don't think we generally remove positions once a player has been listed there, except for the retired cases I mentioned.  I'm not looking to start a new consensus, per se, but am interesting in documenting existing practice into WP:NBASTYLE.—Bagumba (talk) 07:39, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Seems to me it should be the other way around; retired players should have all their positions listed whereas current players should have only their current/primary position. Lizard  (talk) 14:08, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Active players should start with how the team lists them (for example, LBJ is listed as a F/G by the Cavs), though not all have specific positions beyond F/G/C. At that point it seems like basketball-reference is a good place to go for SG/PG/SF/PF after that. Rikster2 (talk) 14:13, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Honest question: Is it that simple? I'm not sure if it's the exception or the norm, but Kevon Looney is listed by the Warriors as a F, but basketball-reference has him as a C, and Kerr is always talking that there is no such thing as 4's anymore. So there's inconsistencies even from team sources.—Bagumba (talk) 20:48, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Table of career highs
What are your thoughts on bios having a dedicated table of career-highs of various stats e.g. Joel_Embiid? I'm leaning towards it being trivial and WP:NOTSTATS, but think it is OK in prose. On the other hand, I wouldn't even bother putting into prose a lot of the team stat rankings that future NBA player DeAndre Ayton has at Deandre_Ayton.—Bagumba (talk) 12:25, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm all for not having them be included. They are rare i.e. they don't appear in too many pages. They are easily referenced though, with NBA.com having such an accessible place for such info . DaHuzyBru (talk) 14:06, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
 * That is trivial. Embiid did not achieve anything significant for now, but in the future we could create a list for that as can be seen at Category:Career achievements of basketball players if he becomes as notable as the players there. At this moment his career highs are nothing more than a case of recentism. – Sabbatino (talk) 14:13, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I support these tables for the 5 primary offensive stats (pts, rebs, assts, stls. and blks).-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:43, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
 * My suspicion is that Category:Career achievements of basketball players is just a WP:POVFORK for WP:NOTSTATS listings, but that's a discussion for another day.—Bagumba (talk) 20:22, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I have nothing against them if verifiable. In my opinion, they shouldn't be "mandatory", but as an option in certain articles - no problem.-- AirWolf  talk  09:21, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

looking for a ref
Caris LeVert posted 12 rebounds last night (he never had double digits before). I can't find a citation for his career high.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:56, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
 * His career highs are at the bottom of this page: Zagal e jo^^^ 15:56, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Manu Ginóbili lead
Does anyone else think Manu Ginóbili's lead is messy and bloated with unnecessary references (MOS:CITELEAD) and trivial info? I reduced the content with what I thought was a more succinct summary, but I was reverted by another user. No big deal, just thought I'd bring it here to see if anyone else want to have a go at cleaning it up (and/or support my changes). Cheers. DaHuzyBru (talk) 17:10, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Agree that it looks like it can be cleaned up. I'd suggest starting a discussion anout the various points on the talk page there, and see what the other editor says. My guess is that editing back and forth will not work in this particular case. I can try to chime in there in a few days.—Bagumba (talk) 09:53, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't think this user is a native English speaker. I started to clean up the text, but I gave up and reverted all of it. The old version is much better for our readers. One thing I was wondering about: what is that Olympics MVP award supposed to be? I see that the user included two references for that statement, but I've never heard of such of an award anywhere else. I started a discussion at Talk:Manu_Ginóbili. Zagal e jo^^^ 16:29, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Well, he is listed as the MVP here, but none of the other years have an MVP winner listed. I'm wondering what that's all about. Zagal e jo^^^ 00:27, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Interesting. I only know that the last few FIBA World Cups had MVPs and all-tournament teams announced.—Bagumba (talk) 12:39, 3 April 2018 (UTC)