Wikipedia talk:WikiProject New York City Public Transportation/Archive 13

Pictures needed?
I saw on the NYC Meetup page that there is a possibility for planning a subway photography event over the summer. That means there's a push to get photographs of the subway on Wikiepdia. I'm a pretty avid city photographer and would like to help...is there any sort of list of what Wikipedia is looking for pictures of? FlyingPenguin1 (talk) 21:31, 7 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Going through all the station articles recently, there are still a few stations without pics. And generally I see mostly pictures of station entrances or station name tablets (identification). If I am given time, I can build an inventory of all the images we have relating to the NYCS. (I have thought of doing this even before the topic came up.) If photographs of artwork installed in the subway (e.g. those under the umbrella of MTA Arts for Transit) can be taken in the public domain, they would be terrific. The same for images that demonstrate New York City subway tiles. Tinlinkin (talk) 03:45, 8 May 2009 (UTC)


 * It's better to look at Category:New York City public transportation articles needing images first, actually. But out of the existing images, the display of artwork is definitely a weakness. I still plan to do the inventory as intended. Tinlinkin (talk) 05:14, 8 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Is it just speculation on my part, or will New Jersey Transit railroad stations dominate this category for years to come? For the record, this coming week I'm going to have some surprise additional images for Long Island Rail Road stations, after an unexpected trip to the Tri-State area between the end of April & May(I'm back in Florida now, but I'll be returning in June.). DanTD (talk) 10:40, 8 May 2009 (UTC)


 * That category is great...I'll try to fill in pictures for a few of them. Some of the subway and LIRR stations are actually stations I pass through regularly anyway.  New Jersey Transit is always going to be a problem due to police ... activity.  I've tried to take pictures on the NJT trains before...let's just say I draw less notice when I take pictures of airplanes at Kennedy Airport. FlyingPenguin1 (talk) 14:43, 8 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd just like you to know that I uploaded some images of West Hempstead (LIRR station) and Malverne (LIRR station) today, and I'm hoping to add Glen Head (LIRR station), Garden City (LIRR station), Hewlett (LIRR station), and Plandome (LIRR station), soon enough. So I hope you have images for other stations if you're planning to upload them. I've also got some for Manhasset (LIRR station), but it's on a camera that I haven't taken to be developed yet. DanTD (talk) 14:50, 8 May 2009 (UTC)


 * By the way, Hempstead (LIRR station) has five images, and a massive history, and yet it continues to be categorized as a stub article. The same goes for Lynbrook (LIRR station), Valley Stream (LIRR station), and others, which are too long to be classified a stubs. DanTD (talk) 10:45, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Hello, as the coordinator of Wikipedia Takes the Subway, if you come to the next New York meetup, we will be setting a date for the second event. The list will be revealed there, so people don't spoil the event and grab all the pictures in advance. :P Meetare Shappy Cunkelfratz! 18:16, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I can't come to the meetup...I'm going to be out of town that weekend. FlyingPenguin1 (talk) 18:40, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm. If that can't happen, just keep your summer calendar open. ;) Meetare Shappy  Cunkelfratz! 18:55, 8 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I can't make it there either(although I will be back up in June), but I've been wondering why 170th Street (IRT Jerome Avenue Line) was included on the list when it already has an image. Was there somebody looking for others at this station? DanTD (talk) 22:56, 9 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I took that pic and, umm, not to put too fine a point on the question, it stinks and I hope someone provides a better one. Most stations except the surface ones ought to have two pix, one of the street level and one at platform level, unless someone can cleverly cover both with one shot.  I expect to attend the meeting next weekend and am already wondering whether the pictures from the first Takes the Subway event ever came out.  Meanwhile I notice that The Oranges are poorly covered by pictures of either the towns or the stations, and am thinking of unfolding my bike in Newark to pedal along that line snapping pix as far as my legs hold out.  Jim.henderson (talk) 23:59, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Pharos has most of his pictures up, and I have all of mine save for Liberty Avenue {IND Fulton Street Line), which needs to have the filename moved at commons. I don't believe Mitchazenia and Daniel Case uploaded their photos. Meetare Shappy  Cunkelfratz! 01:44, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * All righty; I guess I haven't noticed them arriving because they are labeled with the uploader rather than the event as they were for the "Takes Manhattan" events. And I'm not looking especially for them, just seeing what's already in an article before uploading the pic I took a couple weeks ago while bicycling up Fort Washington Avenue or whatever.  Oof, got more to go through from my College Point expedition, and then the Long Beach one and the Elmhurst / Forest Hills one.  Too many sunny days produce too many pix to process on the rare bad weather weekend.  Jim.henderson (talk) 20:36, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Wasn't Pharos in charge of images for Fort Hamilton Parkway (BMT Sea Beach Line) and Central Avenue (BMT Myrtle Avenue Line)? Because I haven't seen any of those yet. In the meantime, Mitchazenia and Daniel Case were supposed to be working on a bunch of them. I recently had a dispute with Mitchazenia and TMF over the notability of certain county roads in Suffok County, New York, and I'm hoping that didn't scare him away. TMF says he quit, but I've seen him performing some transportation-related edits. DanTD (talk) 14:31, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Shappy, you should notice that I added additional articles to the category of needed images. I won't be coming to the event as I have to constantly assist my grandmother. I need to know if I should complete with the inventory before you commence the event and whether you plan to get photos of all NYCS (and other) stations this time around. And have you considered taking photos of MTA Arts for Transit as I have suggested? Tinlinkin (talk) 02:52, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

New picture suggestions
I just found something out; Whoever takes pictures of Tremont Avenue (IND Concourse Line) and adds them to that article, will remove the last station in the Category:New York City public transportation articles needing images that starts with "T." In addition, whoever takes one for Island Park (LIRR station) will eliminate all stations in that category that starts with "I." I want to make Island Park and Oceanside (LIRR station) part of my hit list when I come back up in June 2009, but if anybody ever finds an opening date for 8th Street (HBLR station), they should snap it up, and eliminate all stations that start with "8." DanTD (talk) 01:07, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

2009 Fare Increase
New York City transit fares need updating with sourced info about the fare increase. Thanks! Acps110 (talk) 02:16, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

No article for 165th Street Terminal
In all the time I've been participating in WikiProject New York City Public Transportation, I've wondered why nobody has ever added an article on the 165th Street Bus Terminal in Jamaica, or at least made it a chapter in another MTA/NYCT Bus-related article. What gives? DanTD (talk) 13:24, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
 * We ain't paid workers. --NE2 15:14, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ditto for Williamsburg Bridge Plaza and St. George Bus Terminal (is that the correct name?). Just trhowing them out there. At least there's Eltingville Transit Center. Tinlinkin (talk) 03:00, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I was mulling over creating something for the 165th Street Bus Terminal, then got distracted. I think St. George and Williamsburg Bridge Plaza could be written up as sections of the corresponding rail station near it. Nevertheless, I'll draw up something in my user space over the coming days. Pacific Coast Highway { spring • ahead } 19:34, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

New Penn Station Infobox
I just started working on a new version of the infobox for Penn Station, but rather than clutter up this talk page with it, I'd rather lead you to the version in my sandbox so you can see it for yourselves. Let me know what you think of it. DanTD (talk) 14:34, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks good. Not sure if I'd set out the Port Washington Branch for the LIRR, though. While it is true that all Port Wash trains go to Penn, all branches send some trains there, so the Port Wash isn't really "special" (for lack of a better term) enough for a unique listing. Just my $0.02. oknazevad (talk) 15:45, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, the Atlantic Branch sends trains to Flatbush Avenue (LIRR station) and the Montauk Branch starts at Long Island City (LIRR station), but that's another issue. Somehow, I got the impression that the Port Washington Branch simply ran parallel to the Main Line west of Woodside Station... mostly from the Port Washington Branch article. Speaking of which, do you have any idea whether or not a transfer at Woodside (LIRR station) will be necessary to get to Grand Central Station once the East Side Access project is finished? In any case, I think the highlight of this version is the new version of the subway connections. I've been speculating on how to abbreviating the names of both stations, or whether to even abbreviate them in the first place. DanTD (talk) 19:21, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The difference about the LIRR, though, is only trains coming off the Main Line can reach Penn. And, with exception of Port Wash, any branch from east of Jamaica can reach Penn, making the Port Wash nothing special.(PS, the Port Wash tracks are part of the Main Line west of Woodside, as they're fully interlocked.)
 * As for East Side Access, a new station at Sunnyside will provide the transfers, including to the Queens Plaza subway station.
 * The subway changes in the box look great, though.oknazevad (talk) 22:57, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Good point. You really should look through the history of the sandbox to determine which version you like best. I'll try other versions at some point, but I also want other opinions. The last time I was in the Sunnyside Yard, I saw no sign of the construction for the East Side Access project whatsoever. And I was on the Port Washington Branch at the time. DanTD (talk) 23:49, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I took out the Port Washington Branch from the infobox after another user did so. Although the PW Branch joins the Main Line west of Woodside station, that is only an operational matter, and since PW and the other Main Line trains all have Woodside as the next station after Penn Station, there's no need to specify the PW Branch in the infobox. (This is also consistent with the s-line at Woodside (LIRR station). Tinlinkin (talk) 23:25, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Although the bullets look nice, the links need to be to the subway services, not images. So, unfortunately, I would only implement your text changes to the NYC Subway without the bullets. (I have not implemented the changes that would add color boxes next to services, but I assure you it will be soon.) Tinlinkin (talk) 23:25, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You can't redirect the bullets to the trains they serve? Too bad. In any case, I would've left the links that already go to the subway services on the existing page alone. DanTD (talk) 17:21, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * There is a way, as was discussed before in this project, but it was said to be undesirable. Template:Bulletsign is possible, but the links won't be blue. Tinlinkin (talk) 09:06, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

2008 NYCT Bus ridership
I'm not sure if anyone knows of this, but here are ridership counts for every bus route operated by NYCT for last year. Pacific Coast Highway { spring • ahead } 19:37, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I've come across that as I was updating the subway station ridership statistics. (I still don't know where to look for ridership data on entire subway routes, though.) The logical thing to do is to incorporate those bus statistics into the lists of bus routes. That would affect the tables in those articles, however, and I would prefer the users most familiar with bus articles to make the decision on doing so. Tinlinkin (talk) 23:26, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Verifying cars used on services
I feel rather uncomfortable with edits regarding the types of subway cars that are used on services or lines. Is there a way to verify the car types used for particular parts of the system that are not simply by observation? Tinlinkin (talk) 09:09, 11 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I know of nothing that would count as as a reliable source, as most places I've seen such info in the past were message boards and personal websites, which are excluded. Even more so, I wonder if there's any real value to the article when car assignments change as often as they do. It may also conflict with the idea that Wikipedia is not a guidebook.oknazevad (talk) 15:00, 11 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Exactly, car assignments are generally transitory and are known only by people "in the know" in the TA, who then post on the message boards as the most appropriate (only?) venue, as far as I can tell. Those postings can't be disregarded by a casual reader, but they can't be used as a genuine reference in Wikipedia either, that's the dilemma. Yesterday Second Avenue Sagas reported on the retirement of the R40 slants, and it's a source I would rely upon. But it's unlikely to be a Wikipedia-grade reliable source, and neither are the links the author linked to. So we are left to ask, how do we verify "the R40 slant cars have been retired as of June 2009" if there's no reliable source forthcoming (as of yet)? It's a non-trivial question. If I know of some source, which, at the same time is not a Wikipedia-reliable source, as my choice I would not insert it only to see it deleted later by someone who is checking the validity of references. In this situation, I am not one of those people who would boldly delete poorly sourced material, leaving a stub afterward (it's counterproductive and irksome because it erases someone's work); rather, I would be unhappy with the sourcing and acknowledge there is no better way to verify the statements short of deletion (by the aforementioned person). That doesn't mean I would tolerate it forever, either. R160B (New York City Subway car) is a good example of this. Tinlinkin (talk) 09:03, 13 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I tried to deal with this a few years ago, but was unable to convince enough people that there is generally a lack of reliable sources. The main exception is "isolated" services such as the L, where sources may exist - see those in the R143 article. --NE2 16:34, 11 June 2009 (UTC)


 * It's much easier to identify specially-made cars, like the 1939 World's Fair cars, isn't it? Maybe someday a published book will detail not only the specifications of cars but also the service history of cars (there probably is), identifying in detail what services all cars, past and present, operated on and when. But at this time now, sources are not reliable regarding many individual services, and that means verification is next-to-impossible. Tinlinkin (talk) 09:03, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Just to clarify my position: my question did not call for the deletion of such edits (yet). (Although I would not oppose deletion.) Rather, it was meant for me to understand the (mild) edit war that has happened in the subway service articles, and to look for a solution or compromise. There may be a perfectly valid rationale for inclusion: if a subway car article says "so-and-so car model runs on ... lines," why not include it in the line/service articles? Makes sense to me, but such a statement needs to be verified using a Wikipedia-grade reliable source, and if it can't, an editor is in her/his right to delete it—especially if it is a hindrance to the quality of the article. The grandfathering period of allowing unverified statements may end without warning, here as in anywhere, based on what I've seen elsewhere on Wikipedia. I'm just looking into the future and trying not to be an alarmist at the same time. Tinlinkin (talk) 09:03, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The concerns about verifiability are quite legitimate, but even if verified, I don't think the car assignments are sufficiently encyclopedic for inclusion. The transitory nature of them, and the level of detail they represent are too impermanent and technically specific for an encyclopedia intended for the general reader. As a railfan, I know that I find the material interesting, but I also know that I am hardly the general audience at which Wikipedia is aimed.oknazevad (talk) 13:21, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't care much for rolling stock, actually (only that they're comfortable, safe, and clean-looking). Regarding specific models in articles, I don't care one way or another. In airline articles, we say that the Boeing 747-400 is part of the fleet, for example, but we don't say the airline flies the Boeing 747-400 to these airports or on these routes. The subway is a fixed system, so there is an argument that certain car models run regularly on certain routes. If there are various car models on a route, that's just the way it is. So to me, it comes down to preference, and there are many people who obviously want to know what car models can be found on particular routes. Tinlinkin (talk) 18:17, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

I think this is the closest we are going to get to an "official" source. I just pulled it up and Joe updated it yesterday. Joe worked for NYCTA, and still has connections to current workers. His page is based on the official info from NYCTA. There are other articles out there too, but less detailed in terms of time. I'd like to see rolling stock included in the service articles, to ease cross-referencing. Maybe we could add the phrase (As of Month Year, this service uses these cars.) Once the R160 delivery is complete, the assignments will settle down until the next fleet begins arriving. I disagree with The transitory nature of them as a basis for exclusion. Services are just as transitory recently, for example, E to Jamaica Center instead of Jamaica-179th (1988), swap the B and C in the north (late 1990s), swap the B & D in Brooklyn (2004), N and W local and express swap (2004), discontinue the 9 (2005), etc. We have references for those, so of course they are included. I don't think we need ONE source for car information, multiple ones will strengthen the case for inclusion (and maybe a history of cars used on a particular service.)Acps110 (talk) 19:13, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * At least services are more widely documented than assignments of rolling stock, and they are publicized. I say "transitory" because how do we know the length of time these car assignments will last? (I posed a similar question in a message elsewhere.) Another problem is updating. Here, the solution is to say "As of [this date]," and that's fine. The Joe Korner source is good enough for me (though it may not for somebody else with a more stringent standard), and that's what I'd like to see, especially as a historical reference. We do need as many sources as appropriate, here as in anywhere else. Tinlinkin (talk) 18:34, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Can someone please block this user? he keeps on adding rolling stock information and i have repeatedly removed them. to me, this is vandalism. The Legendary Ranger (talk) 23:47, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I have written a message to the user. Although I did nothing in response, I have noticed the edit war in the service articles continued. In accordance with the above, I will try a different phrasing for one of the articles (F (New York City Subway service)) with the Joe Korner source and see if it sticks. Let's see what happens. Tinlinkin (talk) 09:27, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * And if my addition does stick, I ask that I don't want to be responsible for updating rolling stock assignments. I can add the phrasing to other articles, however. Tinlinkin (talk) 09:56, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

First, JoeKorner is a railbuff site which is neither more or less "authoritative" than any other blog - hence inappropriate for wikipedia. Second, saying that "this line is served by R46s" is meaningless trivia relevant to only a few people without explanation or context. That the lettered lines on the NYC Subway have larger cars is important; the car's contract number is meaningless unless linked to some reference and context. If "JoeKorner" would like to post actual TA memos that can be cited, let him do that first.

For example, one could say that the F train route can utilize 60' or 75' subway cars, and among the cars used have been models that introduced innovations (not all of which were successful). Gene Sansome's book on subway rolling stock is an authoritative source that can be cited; if the transit agency has press releases or memos that are now public these can be cited too. An article about the R160 car's features and why they are important can be backed up by material published or released by Alstom, the manufacturer. Raryel (talk) 15:19, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * So you don't think Joseph Korman's (the JoeKorNer's author) site is reliable? The top of the page linked to above says "Most of these listings are adapted from the ERA NY Division Bulletin." So is the Electric Railroaders' Association (I presume), an educational organization, unreliable? The source does not necessarily need to be a primary source. As for providing context, I thought my phrasing (erased by Buzz203) did so. Reproduced from here:
 * As the F service is part of the New York City Subway's B Division, it uses rolling stock suitable for that division. As of June 2009, R32s, R40As, R42s, R46s, R160As and R160Bs are assigned to the F.
 * Sure, the length of the cars can and should be added. I also skimmed Sansone's New York Subways: An Illustrated History... in a bookstore and I found only few specific mentions to services. Well, I can't say that I didn't try. Tinlinkin (talk) 22:41, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Question
Are nearby post offices notable enough to be mentioned in subway station articles? Meetare Shappy Cunkelfratz! 22:17, 17 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd say no, on the grounds of relevance. I could understand why someone might want to look up that info if they need to find a post office, but Wikipedia, being not a guide, wouldn't be the right place to look.oknazevad (talk) 13:29, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, as Wikipedia should not be a travel guide, I would think post offices fall under that category (too numerous and individually non-notable). The only exception is probably the James A. Farley Post Office because it is a National Register of Historic Places landmark and it has an article. Libraries are another example: the main libraries of each system (New York, Brooklyn & Queens) would likely be acceptable in station articles; branch libraries, no. Tinlinkin (talk) 10:02, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * That's a flat no. Pacific Coast Highway { spring • ahead } 20:53, 21 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd say only if the station entrance is actually located inside it (doubtful) or art in the station references it. In other words, use the same criteria you'd use for other nearby features. --NE2 21:48, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Revising bus tables
I've taken a bit of break for a while, and things have gotten sort of messy. The point is, something needs to be done to clean up the express bus table. The current table, looks like this:

I would like to revise it to look like this:

The new table would do away with the two separate column listing for the streets used along the route, and the service column, which could easily be replaced with something in the notes to the effect of "Daily service" as seen above, or something more fleshed out, like here. Pacific Coast Highway { spring • ahead } 14:58, 22 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Other than evening up the terminals columns, I think it looks good. It's certainly easier to read, and isn't cluttered with excessive detail about service periods. "Daily service" covers it well enough. oknazevad (talk) 18:33, 22 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Looks good, but how would you handle bus route history? Tinlinkin (talk) 07:19, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Combined with Notes. Pacific Coast Highway { Just • beat it! } 01:55, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

NYCS Stations split
I need second opinions on how I should split List of New York City Subway stations, which is way too long. Tinlinkin (talk) 07:21, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Split it into divisions, A Div. and B Div. Hope that helps. —Imdanumber1 (talk • contribs • email) 13:58, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

How about splitting the text off, and getting rid of some of the colors? --NE2 15:18, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Please see WP:WIAFL. A featured list would still need an engaging lead to introduce and explain the list. Yes, the text is long, but the list itself is longer and was even too long to begin with. As for the colors, they are appropriate and appealing. (After all, I avoided the alternative: NYCS-bull-small.) Tinlinkin (talk) 03:17, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Stations needing photos
I have my list; is there any place I should post it? Meetare Shappy Cunkelfratz! 13:23, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I've already posted images of Manhasset (LIRR station), and new ones of Bayside (LIRR station) and Island Park (LIRR station) tonight. Which ones do you have? DanTD (talk) 22:14, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * You may post it at WikiProject New York City Public Transportation/New York City Subway/Station pictures. Tinlinkin (talk) 22:44, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I just completed images for all stations along the Port Jefferson Branch(except for Landia (LIRR station)) and Port Washington Branch. I've got a few others planned for Mineola (LIRR station), Westbury (LIRR station), Hicksville (LIRR station), and Deer Park (LIRR station) coming, but they're not ready tonight. DanTD (talk) 01:57, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * To tinlinkin, I've created the page. Sorry for the delay.
 * DanTD, this list is for New York City Subway. I can however create one for LIRR or Metro-North if you wish. Meetare Shappy  Cunkelfratz! 03:06, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Go for it. But I have to warn you that photos of former stations are going to be a lot harder to get. DanTD (talk) 04:29, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Redlinks ready
Hey, if Shappy or anyone else is interested in posting lists of other kinds of stations that need photos;


 * WikiProject New York City Public Transportation/Long Island Rail Road/Station pictures
 * WikiProject New York City Public Transportation/Metro-North Railroad/Station pictures

And if need be, I'll create one for New Jersey Transit, and Hudson-Bergen Light Rail. DanTD (talk) 04:40, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * As a quick prelim list for the HBLR, Lincoln Harbor, 2nd Street, and Danforth need pictures, and Port Imperial, Exchange Place, and Liberty State Park could probably use better ones. oknazevad (talk) 18:27, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I can certainly agree with a better picture for Port Imperial. Here's one for HBLR anyway.

And if the River Line were part of this project, I'd add that too. DanTD (talk) 19:12, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * WikiProject New York City Public Transportation/Hudson-Bergen Light Rail/Station pictures

5 to Flatbush
The 5 train will be extended to Flatbush Avenue in Brooklyn during midday hours starting next week on Monday. Do you guys think that the changes should be reflected on the article now or until Monday? —Imdanumber1 (talk • contribs • email) 23:53, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I just downloaded the current schedule from the MTA's website, and it indicates that 5 service goes to Flatbush weekdays. Please update the templates so that they can transclude to the many pages that reference service times. Acps110 (talk) 01:27, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe I have updated the affected templates. I am unsure what would be the appropriate symbol to use in 5 (New York City Subway service), though. Tinlinkin (talk) 04:43, 27 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Use the circles only...I don't know why the diamond 5 is in the article when it is clearly not used anymore. —Imdanumber1 (talk • contribs • email) 03:42, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

I went ahead and updated the table. I eliminated the diamond as it is no longer used in the system. Using it in the article would give people the impression that the line still used diamonds, which would lead to a disaster. —Imdanumber1 (talk • contribs • email) 04:12, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Source of LI & NYC Trolleys
Does anybody have a copy of Lost Trolleys of Queens and Long Island by Stephen L. Meyers? I've found it somewhat useful for tracking former trolley lines. DanTD (talk) 23:31, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I also found this map last night. DanTD (talk) 11:57, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Seems like a good source. Consider checking the library for it...you may find other things pertaining to the same subject. —Imdanumber1 (talk • contribs • email) 21:45, 8 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Good idea. Too bad I'm back down in Florida and the only libraries that would have something like this would be up in NYC or LI. DanTD (talk) 16:17, 9 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh. In that case, do it when you get back on NYC. But I'm sure Florida may have what you may be looking for. And there's always Barnes & Noble! —Imdanumber1 (talk • contribs • email) 19:20, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

RI Tramway for sale?
The most recent addition to Roosevelt Island Tramway was the following: "In July of 2009 the RIOC decided to sell the tramway on a goverment auction website [link removed]". To me, this appears dubious as I could not find any news sources regarding this. Plus the starting bid is $1,500? I am tempted to remove it. (Unless it is part of the tram modernization program, in which case the auction link is still inappropriate as other sources should discuss the sale.) Tinlinkin (talk) 10:58, 12 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Sounds (reads?) like vandalism to me. Or, someone put up that "auction" as a joke or scam. If anyone actually bids on it, I got a bridge in Brooklyn for them. Remove it.oknazevad (talk) 20:24, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

WP:MOSDASH spacing for subway articles & titles
Per a suggestion from my talk page, I believe spaces are needed between dashes when individual items have internal spaces within them. This affects: This does NOT affect an en dash that is used as a conjunction, as in Hoyt–Schermerhorn Streets (New York City Subway). Are there any problems with this and am I missing things? Tinlinkin (talk) 11:34, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Anything involving IRT Broadway–Seventh Avenue Line
 * Station names for which this applies, such as 161st Street–Yankee Stadium (New York City Subway) and Mets–Willets Point (IRT Flushing Line)


 * Hmm, so are you saying that the names should be modified to such: "161st Street – Yankee Stadium"? I'd be up for that, if MOS makes it a necessity. —Imdanumber1 (talk • contribs • email) 19:19, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Punctuation for specific stations
When I started moving page titles, I did not hear any objections. That changed when another user is trying to finish what I started (in good faith).

I figured that as the use of a slash is almost the same as an en dash punctuation-wise, and we agreed when to use such, adjusting the spacing of a slash would be as uncontroversial as that of an en dash. In other words, following WP:SLASH is almost identical to WP:ENDASH (regarding items with internal spaces), which we agreed upon. I need to know what is the correct punctuation of the following:


 * Fulton Street/Broadway–Nassau Street (New York City Subway)
 * Jamaica Center–Parsons/Archer (New York City Subway)
 * Fifth Avenue/53rd Street (IND Queens Boulevard Line)

These are/were the names of pages before today. The Jamaica Center one I was unsure about, and I would have brought that one here anyway. So, please, what are the correct titles? Tinlinkin (talk) 11:17, 22 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Nobody else is concerned that somebody is choosing to favor one style recommendation over another even though they are almost identical? Tinlinkin (talk) 06:22, 18 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I missed this question! I think we should go with the MOS that says spaces surrounding slashes, just like en dashes. Acps110 (talk) 17:29, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Newark Light Rail station articles question
I was wondering about the Newark Light Rail station articles. I noticed that articles for stations along the original City Subway line use the disambiguator (NCS Station). I was thinking that they should be moved to use the (NLR Station) disambiguator instead, like the stations along the Broad Street extension, as the whole system is called the Newark Light Rail now, with no real public distinction between the two routes.

I believe the difference arises from confusion over the proper names of the service from when the Broad Street Line opened a few years ago. It was at time that the Newark Light Rail name was introduced, and some understood that the new name applied only to the Broad Street line, but, as the timetables show, it is for the whole system. As such, I think our article titles here should reflect that change.

Thoughts? oknazevad (talk) 21:59, 23 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't like the idea. It's a separate system that was intergrated into the current one. DanTD (talk) 02:22, 24 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The counter to that is two fold, though. Firstly, I'd say that is was an existing system that was expanded and renamed, and there's no longer any separation, as evidenced by the weekend service pattern, which through-routes the entire system as one line. Secondly, if the existing system was integrated, to use your term, there is no distinction worth keeping th separate. oknazevad (talk) 04:25, 24 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I would support the change. NJ Transit wants the name "Newark Light Rail" to stick, so much so that I don't see any mentions of the Newark City Subway on the Newark Light Rail website, timetable, or map; just a route between Grove Street and Newark Penn Station. There's another issue, though. Is the Newark Light Rail abbreviation of NLR common? I have a feeling it is not, at least not as much as HBLR. But don't take my word for it—I have never taken the system, but I collect timetables periodically from NY Penn Station. Tinlinkin (talk) 08:17, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It's common enough, as I've seen it used often, and it's a logical initialism, which keeps the disambiguator brief. If there are no other objections, I'll go ahead and move the pages. oknazevad (talk) 16:15, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

So I've completed the moves. Some of the templates need to be updated to avoid the redirects, as they don't use standard wikilinks, but I don't know the location or formating of the templates. oknazevad (talk) 18:09, 26 July 2009 (UTC)


 * That was a disappointment. It's really an old system that was integrated into the new one. Add the Newark City Subway system to Newark Light Rail and there's nothing to distinguish the systems anymore(besides the name of the line). On another topic, regarding that map Tinlinkin showed us; I noticed that it has an NJT bus route called "Go25." Is there supposed to be something special about this, or is this just an overhyped express line? DanTD (talk) 18:53, 26 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree that there's nothing to distiguish the system anymore, which is why the changes make sense to me. You'll notice that the City Subway link is already a redirect to Newark Light Rail. The system was modernized, expanded and renamed. It's all one system now.


 * As for the Go25 bus, yeah, it's little more than a specially branded express with fixed stops from the Irvington Bus Terminal to Newark Penn. Runs during rush hours as a special run of the regular route 25. Schedule here oknazevad (talk) 20:45, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Union Square wreck article?
Does anyone think an article about the Union Square wreck should be created? I don't see why not as it was a significant event in transit history, much like the Malbone Street Wreck was, and still is. —Imdanumber1 (talk • contribs • email) 16:36, 18 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Possibly, When did this wreck take place? I can think of at least two other wrecks on the Long Island Rail Road that deserve articles as well(Rockville Center & Kew Gardens), both of which took place in 1950. In fact, maybe a whole chapter on that one year could be added to the History of the Long Island Rail Road article. DanTD (talk) 16:57, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree that that would be a notable article to create. August of 1991 was when it happened; Downtown 4 train derailed on the cross-over from express to local, north of the Union Square station. Acps110 (talk) 22:48, 18 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I disagree. there is no need to creater another article for that since most of the information is already on the 14th Street-Union Square page. There is really nothing else to add. This accident is not notable from a worldwide or nationwide aspect. Only those who were here when the accident happened would know about it. in fact, i do not even know why an article for the 137th Street Yard was created since it is just a layup yard, unlike the rest of the yards in the system. The Legendary Ranger (talk) 23:57, 18 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I believe the event was publicized throughout the U.S. and likely worldwide when it happened. (I was 10 at the time so I remember it.) Five people died and about 20 were injured due to the motorman's actions, all because he was sleep deprived and [likely] drunk. If these circumstances do not meet notability requirements, including criminal acts, I don't know what does. An incident involving wreckage of a train with fatalities and/or serious injuries is just as noteworthy as if such an incident involved other vehicles, such as aircraft. If you (or anybody else) decide to create the article, be sure to source it rigorously and make it [preferably] substantial than what has been previously written, i.e. in 14th Street–Union Square. Tinlinkin (talk) 04:52, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I have the following book out on loan from the library (and renewed several times!): That's my source for the above. In fact, there is a substantial chapter on disasters, at least 11 separate instances. Not all of them are notable, but some are. Tinlinkin (talk) 05:17, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Here's some information, and probably has more than you'll know what to do with. --NE2 07:26, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Jeez, I would have to go to Philadelphia or Hartford just to look at this report? :) Why aren't the New York libraries interested in obtaining this report? Tinlinkin (talk) 08:17, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You could try interlibrary loan. --NE2 09:41, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I hate to gravedig but I'm still contemplating on whether to create an article like this or not. Would it be okay? —Imdanumber1 (talk • contribs • email) 02:44, 29 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd say go for it. The worst that could happen is that article would end up nominated for deletion and the debate would rule in favor of deletion. I don't believe that will happen if it comes to AfD. You can write the article in your userspace before posting it to Wikipedia if you still have doubts. The interlibrary loan as NE2 suggested would be your best course for preparation. Tinlinkin (talk) 06:18, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

NYCS Disambiguation
Bringing here another topic from my talk page: What is the best way to go about standardizing the disambiguation of New York City Subway stations? User:Tinlinkin/Subway disambiguation contains all the pages that would need to be created for a table/section in List of New York City Subway stations. Currently, there are three kinds of formats for existing pages: Entries are also varied from page to page. So it's kind of a mess right now. Tinlinkin (talk) 01:36, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) "station name (New York City Subway)", i.e. Kings Highway (New York City Subway)
 * 2) redirect to "station name (disambiguation)", i.e. 86th Street (New York City Subway)
 * 3) redirect to "station name (borough)", i.e. 50th Street (New York City Subway)

CRRLI Station List
I've got a list of Stations on the Central Railroad of Long Island that are ready for the taking, if not almost ready. If anybody is working on a CRRLI article, go ahead and take it for yourself. I've also got one for the Flushing and North Side Railroad if anybody's working on that. DanTD (talk) 19:40, 31 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Is it just my imagination, or do we have enough material for an article on the Central Railroad of Long Island in all of the branches covered on that list? If worst comes to worst, I may start a CRRLI article with just the list and tag it for expansion. DanTD (talk) 04:32, 18 September 2009 (UTC)


 * UPDATE; I just redirected part of the Central Branch (Long Island Rail Road) article to CRRLI, and I found that NE2 originally created it, but somebody else deleted it. DanTD (talk) 13:10, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

New Lots Line?
I propose the IRT New Lots Line be moved to IRT Livonia Avenue Line. This would follow the convention of other "avenue" named lines in the IRT which otherwise would be unnammed... Dyre Ave, Jerome Ave, Lenox Ave, Nostrand Ave, White Plains Rd, etc. Acps110 (talk) 06:11, 9 September 2009 (UTC)


 * It looks like the MTA uses New Lots Line; compare to . --NE2 06:25, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Revising bus charts...again...
As of late there has been progress in cleaning up some of the bus route tables. And the others are starting to look messy. This snippet comes from the Queens chart:

This is probably the best of the worst. Other routes in the table suffer from having too much info, to the point where it has to be placed in smaller fonts. I would like to introduce a standard format for the tables, and change them to a format similar to the recently revised express tables. Here's my pitch for the format:

Notes:
 * 1) If a route terminates at a subway station, then that station's name should be shown, along with the neighborhood. If the neighborhood is in the station's name (Jamaica-179th Street for example), then the station's name should only be displayed. Secondary terminals should have a note below stating when buses end there.
 * 2) This should be limited to at most four major thoroughfares where the route travels for a significant length. There is no need to list every twist and turn.
 * 3) Service operating through owl periods would continue to be noted by a asterisk, or a perhaps a shade of light blue. Limited stop variants are noted in the Notes/History column.

This is what the finished product would look like:

This is a rough draft, spacing issues will be worked out later.

Comments? Pacific Coast Highway { talk • contribs } 19:05, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * So far, it looks pretty good, even with the parts you think are messy. DanTD (talk) 04:33, 18 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I'll begin the changeover next week. Pacific Coast Highway { talk • contribs } 16:28, 19 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The Brooklyn route table is terrible in this regard. I could go to 5 for some routes, but not beyond 5, as some routes such as the B6 and B13 have many turns. --AEMoreira042281 (talk) 05:50, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Brighton Express Suspension
As you may be aware of already, express service on the Brighton Line is suspended for about two years due to rehabilitation at various stations along the line. The entry was updated  by User:Newkirk Plaza David to reflect this. This was later reverted by User:The Legendary Ranger, under the reasoning that it's "not a permanent change, even if it is long term". I later reverted, saying that it was a long enough change in service to warrant reprinting of schedules and changes of station signage to reflect it. I also added a citation from the New York Post. The change was later reverted by The Legendary Ranger, without explanation. I restored the unexplained deletion of content, which was again deleted by a IP saying that "the content has been moved to the asteris [sic]". Since we don't have a concrete guideline about how to note changes in service, I'm not sure what should be said about the local service going forward. I suggest that since this is a long-term service change, the previous version should be used. Pacific Coast Highway { talk • contribs } 16:25, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It should also be noted that the entry was updated to reflect it's long term extension to Kensington, even though the change is not yet permanent. Pacific Coast Highway { talk •  contribs } 16:34, 19 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I just edited the page to show B local service with a few changes. I kept the information that the B normally runs express in Brooklyn and noted that the local stations are only temporary stops. though a new schedule and signs have been released to reflect this change, a new subway map has not yet. The Legendary Ranger (talk) 17:39, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

The fact is there is no regular express B service for more than a few (2–3) months. Thus it is misleading and dishonest to say there is express service for the duration of this project, including the present time; this means that the article for the B ought to include the local stops in its station listing, and the station articles updated as well. So I support Pacific Coast Highway's version. There is no problem in saying that the B normally provides express service. [A note of caution: "Temporary" is such a subjective and unreliable term (compare with Amtrak's Sunset Limited east of New Orleans or SEPTA's R8 north of Fox Chase). Since we (per the MTA) are able to anticipate when the express service suspension ends, the word "temporary" is qualified for use here.] Tinlinkin (talk) 12:58, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I support the B service page showing the local stops also. (Like the G shows its extension.) I have reverted Jimmy Slade's removal. Acps110 (talk) 03:40, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Brighton Line image threatened
On another topic related to the Brighton Line, I recently made a major mistake by submitting File:Brightonbeachstation.jpg to the commons. This had no rights reserved, and I had no idea that this meant that they would question the copyright status in the commons. Is there any tag that you know of that can replace this, and if not, can the image be preserved in any way? DanTD (talk) 20:12, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * UPDATE: The image was saved. Yippee! DanTD (talk) 19:58, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Atlantic City Express Service
Can anybody create a color bar & infoboxes for the Atlantic City Express Service trains? DanTD (talk) 16:56, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The color is currently the same as Atlantic City Line. Is there another color to be used? Tinlinkin (talk) 05:52, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Subway line reference via use of parentheses
Hey guys. (I haven't been here in a long, loooooooooong time, wow!!!)

It's come to my attention that after bolding the subway service (e.g. Q) was deemed unacceptable back in 2007, we changed out project's MOs to non-bold the subway line. However, I've seen some articles where the lines are bolded however.

Even so, it still causes some sort of confusion in the article text (to me, a least) when the line is referred to in the article. I was thinking: why not surround the route in parentheses (e.g. (Q), (1), (5) or (L))? Would Wikipedia find this acceptable? I mean, the diamond services are referred to diamond service by means of those weird arrow thingies (<6>, <7>). Why not expand these to the regular routes? —Imdanumber1 (talk • contribs • email) 02:44, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Jimmy Slade has been doing the bolding. Good luck convincing him to fix his mistakes. He has been very hostile towards me. I only have gotten him to stop linking stations and complexes differently. Other than that I haven't been successful.
 * My opinion on services in articles is that they should use the template from the line, such as without parentheses, but with the time bullet shown. Acps110 (talk) 02:56, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't really care about the bolding, I am just debating if the subway service route should be put in parentheses, as the newer-generation subway cars utilizes the parentheses for the circle (or normal) routes, and the "greater/less-than signs" (e.g. for diamond signs. Bolding these would be a good idea too, but I don't really care much for bolding. —Imdanumber1 (talk • contribs • email) 22:38, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the Manual of Style suggests that boldface be used sparingly apart from defining article titles and its synonyms. In my aesthetic opinion, I agree with that. I would only use parentheses and less-than/greater-than signs if the prose demands a distinction between those services. Also, consider how news sources reference these services—that's also a good place for comparison. Tinlinkin (talk) 06:06, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

IMCDB Image question
Just out of curiosity, is this image(http://www.imcdb.org/vehicle.php?id=251218) one of the Culver Line ramp as I suspect? DanTD (talk) 20:26, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks like it. It is marked as an F train, as far as I can tell. oknazevad (talk) 01:42, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, I took a similar pic a year and a half ago about 50 feet farther south but it wasn't as good because of a cloudy day and a row of parked schoolbuses so I didn't upload it. Jim.henderson (talk) 14:03, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

NJT Meadowlands Rail Line color
Does the New Jersey Transit's Meadowlands Rail Line have an official color? Because I'd like to recommend dark blue as the color bar, the same one as that of the New York Giants. DanTD (talk) 17:42, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It's white on NJT's official map. So that is its color, and that's why we use it here. No, the infoboxes and route boxes are not blank, they're white, just like NJT's map. And we couldn't use dark blue for three reasons. Firstly, we can't make up such things, we can only report on the official color assignment. Secondly, dark blue is already used for the Atlantic City Line, and NJT only doubles colors when the lines are branches (like the BCL and Main). And thirdly, it'd piss off Jets fans, and rightly so, as they are equal partners in the new stadium. So the white we have is correct, period. oknazevad (talk) 05:42, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * If that's the official color, then I'm okay with leaving it as is. Skip it. On the other hand, yellow would be good for the routeboxes for AirTrain JFK, currently being used in the Jamaica (LIRR station) article. Maroon would be good for any future AirTrain Newark routeboxes. DanTD (talk) 19:44, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Hm. Well, it does appear in a bright, canary yellow on the NYC Subway map, but the PANYNJ's map for the service shows it in blue and green, the same as its logo. Normally, I'd go with that, but it's not unique enough, while the bright yellow (and it's really bright) seems like a good sub. Can't disagree with the maroon for Newark, as long as it's not exactly the same as the Montclair-Boonton Line's version, to avoid confusion.oknazevad (talk) 23:28, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I think you can see the maroon from AirTrain Newark, and it looks a little darker than NJT's Montclair-Boonton Line. I think yellow would not only be good for the routebox, but for the logo used on the NYC Subway map. Somebody should create a fair-use version of that logo. Also, I just swiped the routebox from two versions of Jamaica (LIRR station) and added a substitute routebox for Federal Circle (AirTrain JFK station). It needs some work, as you can probably guess. DanTD (talk) 01:43, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks pretty good. I've never fully understood how to build station succession templates, but they're not that bad. Line maps, like Template:Chemical Coast Line, now those are difficult. I know the colors are adjusted via certain templates. I don't know which one controls the AirTrains, but I'll poke around. oknazevad (talk) 03:52, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I wish it were better, though. I swiped it from an anonymous IP who added it to Jamaica Station, went back and added some parameters from an old version of that article, and stuck it on Federal Circl station. However, I think I screwed up with this one. DanTD (talk) 04:17, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Bushwick Branch article
Somebody finally created an article on the LIRR Bushwick Branch. I was planning something like this myself, but I had to convert the sandbox I planned for it into nothing but a station list, that will be good for taking once all the inappropriate stations are removed. DanTD (talk) 16:51, 17 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, stumbled upon it just after it was created. Spelling was awful. History section needs to be re-done so that its one giant run-on paragraph is more readable, but it's starting to shape up. I'm not particularly knowledgable about the LIRR in general (NJT's where I've spent most of my focus), so I can't be too much of a help, buy I'll gladly proofread anything.


 * On a semi-related note, I'm wondering if the LIRR navbox should be reworked to separate the fully defunct branches from those that are still active as freight-only, like the Bushwick and the Bay Ridge. While the freight-only list is short (3 items, iinm, the Bay Ridge, Bushwick, and Mitchel Secondary), they deserve to stand out separately from those tacks that no longer exist outright.


 * Addendum: the template should also include a link to NYAR, methinks. oknazevad (talk) 17:50, 17 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't mind separating the freight lines from the former lines, although I'm pretty sure some of the freight lines were part of the former Manhattan Beach Branch. DanTD (talk) 18:07, 17 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Only the Bay Ridge, which was originally a branch of the Manhattan Beach, but has far outlived it. The Bushwick was its own thing, and the Garden City-Mitchel Field was part or the Central Railroad. Even then, the Bay Ridge and Manhattan Beach had separated enough existances to warrant separate articles, and therefore separate entries on the navbox. I think I'll go ahead a rework the navbox. oknazevad (talk) 18:53, 17 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Looks pretty good. In the meantime, I still think there's enough material to warrant a new article on the Central Railroad of Long Island. Is anyone here ready and willing to write one? DanTD (talk) 23:21, 20 November 2009 (UTC)


 * AFAIK, the Central Branch article already covers the CRLI pretty well, so using that as a start point, and creating the article as a split of that may be the best bet. Actually, it almost seems as though it was a separate article that got merged. If so, thar is a merge that I would have opposed, as the LIRR's Central Branch is only a portion of the full former CRLI, and it was a distinct company. oknazevad (talk) 07:29, 21 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure it was the Central Branch (Long Island Rail Road) article itself that was expanded. But with that, the Creedmoor Branch, the Hempstead Branch, the Garden City-Mitchel Field Secondary, and my station lists from my sandbox, we could easily build a CRRLI article. For now, I'll redirect CRRLI red links to that chapter of the Central Branch article. DanTD (talk) 12:58, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

LIRR/NJT/Metro-North style infoboxes are GONE!!
Somebody deleted the Long Island Rail Road, Metro-North Railroad and New Jersey Transit-style parameters on the infoboxes!! I'm going to bring this to the main WikiProject Trains borad as well! DanTD (talk) 00:50, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Legend in subway station infoboxes
I had begun to replace the standard legend in Template:Infobox NYCS with a customized one using Template:NYCS infobox legend. Example: East 180th Street (IRT White Plains Road Line). If someone wants to help me do this to the other articles, I would appreciate it. (I obviously waited until now to say this because I don't trust User:Jimmy Slade with this task.) I have already done all stations north of this one. Otherwise I'll do the task at a later date. Tinlinkin (talk) 03:17, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I like the idea, but I question the implementation. Is there a way for the legend to automatically be generated from services serving a particular station and any transfer services? I would prefer it generate itself to keep from having to do so much work after a service change. Acps110 (talk) 03:48, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Possibly, but it probably needs more programming and logic than I could think of and that I wish to invest in at the moment. Templates like Template:NYCS Fourth center and Template:NYCS time 2 are complicated enough. Tinlinkin (talk) 04:15, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, perhaps Template:NYCS time 2 can be modified. But the catch is we need it to generate table rows and use the text from the service templates. It may not be as hard as I thought, but the code for that template has always looked messy and hard to read for me, thus every time I need to modify that template, I have to relearn it. I'll see if I can modify it this week. The only problem I see is that the order of icons will be inconsistent. (The full-time icon may be first in some legends, the late-night icon in others, for example.) But other than that, thanks for the thought! Tinlinkin (talk) 04:24, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * What about icons to decode transfer services being included? That seems to be the most overlooked aspect in the use of the legend elsewhere. (That's part of the reason I asked if it could be automated.) The order of the icons being inconsistent isn't a deal-breaker for me. I would rather see all the icons needed be displayed and the unused icons (for a particular article) suppressed. Acps110 (talk) 04:43, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * That, too. An implementation will be something like:


 * where [SERVICE #] is a template like Template:NYCS Fourth center. The parameters will take transfer services. Or did you have something else in mind? (User:Tinlinkin/Infobox tests 2 is a prototype of what the table will look like (but not the code).) Tinlinkin (talk) 05:22, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Central Railroad of Long Island article revisited,... again
I deleted the CRRLI station list sandbox, and decided to concentrate on the whole article for the Central Railroad of Long Island. I admit, I swiped a lot of the text from other articles on lines that were part of it, but please let me know what many of you think of it so far. DanTD (talk) 17:01, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't lead the lines with the Creedmore Branch, but instead describe the main line first. In fact, I'd combine the sections on the current Central branch and the Garden City-Mitchel Field Secondary into such a section and only mention their current status in a more passing fashion. After all, they have their own articles. oknazevad (talk) 19:35, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I thought the Creedmoor Branch was originally part of the main line. DanTD (talk) 00:53, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
 * If that's true (and what I know of the CRRLI is that the modern Central Branch and GCMFS were part of it), then your draft doesn't make it clear. Inbelieve that your draft would benefit greatly from a map, as it'd help those less familiar with the system picture it. There's a maps taskforce that's good at those sort of things. They may be quite helpful. oknazevad (talk) 01:36, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Sunset Park Yard
Anybody got a name for this small yard on the waterfront of northern Sunset Park? I only found a track leading across Third Avenue and into the Culver Trench (Hmm, how come Wikipedia doesn't explicitly mention Culver Trench?) so I assumed it's a remnant of steam operation on the Culver Line, hence classified it with BMT, but on the other hand it hasn't been electrified so maybe it's NY&A. Jim.henderson (talk) 19:13, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * That trackage is part of the South Brooklyn Railway, namely it's connections to the NY&A and NYNJ Rail (the former New York Cross Harbor). It's one of 2 connections between the Subway and the national rail network. The other is a connection between the Bay Ridge Branch and the Linden shops. oknazevad (talk) 04:40, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you kindly; so it means I correctly categorized it in Commons. Just now I inserted it into the SBK article.  I uploaded a few other pix which could perhaps be worked into narrative sequence.  Alas, one shot northwestward from 4th Avenue came out blurred instead of informative.  I may visit this location late this Sunday night with a biker gang returning from Dyker Heights, but not again until springtime.  Jim.henderson (talk) 06:23, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

According to http://members.trainweb.com/bedt/indloco/sbr.html it's the 39th Street Yard. (By the way, the South Brooklyn was a BRT/BMT subsidiary.) Current trackage can be seen on OpenStreetMap. --NE2 11:51, 20 December 2009 (UTC)