Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Numismatics/Archive 9

Franga
Can someone help me with the Franga article? --Vinie007 21:02, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Namibian mark


The article Namibian mark has been proposed for deletion&#32; because of the following concern:
 * A search for reference found no published (gBooks) WP:RS support for the subject, fails WP:N and WP:V

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 11:36, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

There are actually photos of the pattern coins dated 1990 in Krause's 'Unusual World Coins' catalogue. - (203.211.71.37 (talk) 17:31, 23 November 2011 (UTC))

Louis Braille Dollar
(NB: I posted this comment on the "Dollar coin" article talk page, but thought it should be here instead, where it might be read.) --- I have three Louis Braille dollars that were issued in 2009. Shouldn't there be a Wikipedia article about this coin? Here are two articles about it at Coin Update: Louis Braille Commemorative Coins and Louis Braille Silver Dollar Sales Ending Today Note: I posted the image at right to three other Wikipedia articles already. I would write the article but my English language skills fail me sometimes. Bien amicalement, Charvex (talk) 06:32, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Follow-up: Maybe someone can write about the decision to to make Louis Braille's eyes wide open in the coin design. Since his eyes could not function, they would not have sparkled - nor would they have even been seen, for that matter. The famous life-like maquettes and sculpture of Braille by Étienne Leroux show his eyes closed, as with most blind people, e.g. Andrea Bocelli. I think it was a really stupid decision by the U.S. Mint. There had to be a contoversy about showing his eyes this way. Does anyone know? -- Tchao, Charvex (talk) 06:12, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

guideline change affecting all collectibles articles
Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not has a discussion over an addition to the guideline stating '' Catalogue. Wikipedia is not a stamp catalogue nor a database of collectables. More than the existence of reliable published information regarding specific items is required for inclusion. ''   Collect (talk) 23:12, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Usage of non-free images
I routinely patrol this report, looking for articles where non-free images are being used in an inappropriate/excessive manner. This is in support of WP:NFCC #3, minimal use requirements. For example, today I removed a number of team crests that were used on that article as icons (WP:NFCC #8 failure), and lacking rationales per WP:NFCC #10c. Over the time I've been watching this list, I've seen a significant increase in the number of numismatics articles on this list. Two weeks ago, Euro coins took over the top slot on this report with this series of edits by an anon-IP. That article topped the then first place article by more than 150%. Numismatics articles comprise 25 of the top 52* articles (48%) and are responsible for 52% of the non-free image uses in those top 52. No other class of articles comes even close to claiming as much of the top 50 spots as numismatics articles. A very distant second are articles containing uniform ranks (7 articles, 140 uses, or about 1/5th as much).

* - 52 due to a tie among some articles near 50

WP:NFCC #3a implores us that "Multiple items of non-free content are not used if one item can convey equivalent significant information". Using the Euro coins article, do we really need to display every version of every euro coin from every country in order for the reader to understand the subject of euro coins? I think not.

Further, WP:NOTDIR noted that Wikipedia is not "a complete exposition of all possible details" and WP:INDISCRIMINATE notes "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information"

Many of these currency articles are virtual catalogs of every possible version of a particular item of currency. In some cases the information is being replicated in some form across multiple articles. Compare the table of euro coins in the above mentioned article to the country by country showing at 10_cent_euro_coins. This isn't isolated. Look at 1_euro_coins and 20_cent_euro_coins for more examples.

I think it would be an excellent idea to come to some consensus on just how such articles should be constructed, while keeping a strong eye towards compliance with WP:NFCC policy. Thoughts? --Hammersoft (talk) 16:21, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Hello? --Hammersoft (talk) 21:08, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I wish to point out that following a comment on Banknotes of Zimbabwe all the banknotes of Zimbabwe are demonetised, and following an investigation a couple of years ago it was discovered that demonetised banknotes were in public domain. --Marianian(talk) 12:02, 2 May 2011 (UTC)


 * To convey the meaning and preventing hurt to the articles, I think the interim rule for non-free images of currency should be: "for articles pertaining to a circulating currency, the coins of that currency collectively, and banknotes/bills of that currency collectively (e.g. New Zealand dollar, Coins of the New Zealand dollar, Banknotes of the New Zealand dollar), a maximum of ONE obverse image and ONE reverse image of EACH currently circulating denomination is permitted, OR a maximum of FOUR composite images: one each for coins obverse, coins reverse, banknotes obverse, and banknote reverse, OR a mixture of both, but no individual image can be shown again if it features in a composite image." Clear as mud? Hopefully, in the future we can just get down to four non-free images per article (when we have the photos). Lcmortensen (mailbox) 23:53, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Your standards would leave numismatic articles with no limitation on the about of non-free images permitted on the article. Sorry, it doesn't work. --Hammersoft (talk) 00:25, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It does work. If the United States dollar has four circulating coins (1c, 5c, 10c, 25c) and six circulating notes ($1, $5, $10, $20, $50, $100), then the upper limit is 20 non-free images. I assume the overall limit is somewhere around 30 (EUR, UAH). The realistic maximum would be twice the total number of denominations in circulation. Of course, this is in the interim until such time that we can reduce the number of images to just two to four composites - one for coins and one for notes (with obverse/reverse of each if necessary) (see File:New British Coinage 2008.jpg for example).
 * Lets reword that: "for articles pertaining to a circulating currency, the coins of that currency collectively, and banknotes/bills of that currency collectively (e.g. New Zealand dollar, Coins of the New Zealand dollar, Banknotes of the New Zealand dollar), a maximum of ONE obverse image and ONE reverse image of EACH PER currently circulating denomination is permitted OR a maximum of FOUR composite images: one each for coins obverse, coins reverse, banknotes obverse, and banknote reverse, OR a mixture of both, but no individual image can be shown again if it features in a composite image. 'regardless of each images composition"'' Lcmortensen (mailbox) 02:47, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
 * There is no interim. WP:NFCC doesn't provide a stage whereby articles get a special pass until editors come up with some other way to present information. The point is to comply with it. Period. Wikipedia is not a catalog. It is wholly unnecessary to display every unit of currency in a currency system in order to write an encyclopedia article about that currency system. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:02, 3 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I think coins are a rare exception in that they cannot be released into the public domain while in circulation or otherwise freely licensed. Doing so would diminish the integrity and value of the currency. Considering permission for use in an educational setting is expressly allowed when replication is on-screen (e.g. New Zealand Banknotes, at least for the reverse side), it seems to do our readers a disservice to pass on this opportunity. Lara  18:07, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
 * If our desire was purely for educational setting, then there would be little in the way of limitations on non-free image use. We could use non-free content liberally, as under fair use law an educational defense is rather strong. But, that's not our criteria. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:53, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Hammersoft and Delta have gone on a rampage to remove all fair-use images from all currency pages. Please raise your voice here and at Wikipedia talk:Non-free content/Archive 51 if you have opinions on this, because currently they're taking the relative silence as approval. Jpatokal (talk) 22:28, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your characterization that I've gone on a rampage. You are absolutely correct. I've been going absolutely bezerk. It's like an addictive drug that I can't get enough of. I definitely need rehab. My God, I've already edited ---3--- numistmatics articles! Holy integer Batman! Stop me before I get to 4!!!! Next time you decide to raise issue with something that is being done, please restrain yourself from hyperbole? Thank you, --Hammersoft (talk) 00:34, 10 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Ok before you goo further, I would like to know which country the images are copywrited and which are not, can you do this before you implement changes. Enlil Ninlil (talk) 08:44, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not very concerned with which countries have their currency copyrighted and which do not. I am concerned with what tag they are marked here on this project. I of course have no objection if another editor finds proof that currency from a particular country is available under a free license or public domain, and subsequently retags the images here appropriately. But, as long as they are marked as non-free here, they must abide by WP:NFCC in all respects. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:04, 10 May 2011 (UTC)


 * So I guess you are all talk and no real substance then. Ok fine. But it will take time to find out, are you willing to wait? Enlil Ninlil (talk) 03:20, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I huff and puff and blow a stack of straw down, yes :). As to waiting, no, not really interested in waiting. There's no quarter in policy or guideline to suspend either in favor of waiting indefinitely for people to determine the copyright status of an image. There's no prohibition on re-uploading an image under a free license once it's found to be free either. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:35, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

This has been brought up at Talk:Croatian_kuna. In short, I contend that it's perfectly fine to depict the set of current banknotes on currency pages and that removal of such minimal pictures (as opposed to some random other non-free currency pictures) is unwarranted. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 11:14, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Ah, and moving forward with that there's Wikipedia talk:Non-free content/Archive 52/Archives/ 39. Sorry for the redundant comment. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 11:46, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

RMB usage is under discussion, see Template talk:RMB. A related discussion is at WT:CHINA. 65.93.12.101 (talk) 09:21, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

National coinage history template
I have created Coinage (United States coin). It serves as a history for current coinages. I think it should be approximately the standard template for national coinage histories. I think separate templates should be made for obsolete coinage denomination histories and linked via "below=" wikilinks. If they are not separated some countries will have bloated templates because of the extent of their histories. In the U.S. where we have only been around for 235 years, this template works out pretty well. I also think that we should consider removing individual denomination templates and merging/redirecting them into this template.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:52, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Now see Templates_for_discussion/Log/2011_April_22.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:43, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I like the template, but I wouldn't support removing the existing templates from the articles. I don't think it a bad idea that the articles have a couple of templates with minor overlap.-RHM22 (talk) 18:04, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Tony asked me to comment. I have nothing to say regarding the matter.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:15, 24 April 2011 (UTC)


 * That template is terrible and confussing for some, a simpler one would be more appropriate. Enlil Ninlil (talk) 02:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Reassessment request
Hi, I've removed the importance rating from Franklin half dollar. Could someone new to the article reassess it? The old rating seemed too high and I'd be grateful if someone could take a peek. Possibly I'm wrong. If no one does it in a week, I'll restore the old rating.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:10, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Coin topics will need consistency on certain issues.
There seems to be tremendous production of quality articles on U.S. coins recently. Congratulations on many successes. I am curious about some consistency issues. Now that I have added Coinage (United States) to all coin articles, there are many succession boxes that seem redundant. Can we make it a policy to remove them all if they are redundant with template information? I don't want to bog down various FACs by pursuing this article-by-article.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:10, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Additionally, I am not sure how many coins have experienced significant fluctuation in diameter over time. I know that the dollar has and have asked that the Peace dollar clarify its diameter in the LEAD and the body. Can similar clarifications be made on all dollar coin articles.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:10, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

I at the Peace dollar FAC, I have requested that articles (even just basic stubs) be created on Silver runs. There are a bunch of articles that are all trending toward WP:FT status that could benefit from articles on the Runs, but they are not important enough to any single one of them to necessitate such an effort. However, IMO, people doing the silver coinage article FTs are the last hope for WP to have at least stubs for this topic. If you guys don't do it, who will? All that is needed is something like X was a silver price bubble that occurred from Month YYYY to Month YYYY. It was caused by Event Y. It concluded when event Z occurred. Throw in maybe two refs and find some good cats.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:10, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Should most images of coins and notes be removed from Wikipedia?
Meaning "fair use" images in currency lists, that is. The discussion below will decide "yes" or "no", so comments are very welcome. Wikipedia talk:Non-free content Jpatokal (talk) 12:02, 11 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Coins are affected as well, see eg. what Fifty pence (British coin) looks like now. Jpatokal (talk) 11:12, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Template merge
I am just giving you guys a heads up that the Coinage (United States) template merge is sitting in the queue at Templates_for_discussion. It could take months for someone with the proper expertise to come by and do the merge or one of you could do it and make sure it is done right.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:56, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Care and Photographing of old coins
Hi We came into possession of an old coin issued by the British East India Company in 1835. The photograph is here: I would like to contribute it (the image, not the coin!) to Wikipedia (feel free to pick it up) but I would also like to take a better photo first. Any tips on photographing a coin with an entry level DSLR? (Nikon D60, kit lens)

Also, any tips on how to preserve old coins? I would like to pass it on to my children :)

Also, anyone can help me with valuing the coin? I am in India, not looking to sell, but still, I would like to know how much it would be worth. Ravikiran (talk) 05:09, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Bar Kochba Revolt coinage fake?
A recent edit to the Bar Kochba Revolt coinage page suggests that the coins are a forgery. This is supported by a single source dating from 1909. Please voice your opinion on the article talk page. Poliocretes (talk) 15:45, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Help on Commemorative coins of Poland - coin images are being removed !
Dear All, I need a help or advice on Commemorative coins of Poland article. The user ΔT keeps removing images of Commemorative coins of Poland claiming that "The presence of a fair use rationale for this article on an image description page does not make it acceptable for a given use." I believe I have fulfilled all rules and made all the steps necessary to be able to use the images of the coins on Wikipedia. I knew I will spend a lot of time uploading those images, there fore I first made sure that I can actuatlly upload them withouth breaching any Wikipedia rules. Please advice on what to do, since I am sure more of you had similar issues when putting coin images in the Wiki. Kupsztal (talk) 11:41, 17 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Apparently my last comment wasn't so redundant after all :) Have a look at Wikipedia talk:Non-free content/Archive 52/Archives/ 39 --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 18:41, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

coin images up for deletion
three US coin images from coins of 200, 150, 120 years old have been nominated for deletion. See WP:Files_for_deletion/2011_June_19

65.94.47.63 (talk) 10:26, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

United States Wikipedians' Collaboration of the Month for July 2011
United States dollar, a page within the scope of this project, has been selected as the United States Wikipedians' Collaboration of the Month for July 2011. All editors interested in improving this article are encouraged to participate. You can also vote for next months article of the Month here. --Kumioko (talk) 18:57, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Ora (currency)
It is a strange article:

The ora is the currency of Orania. - AFAIK: untrue, Orania "is a South African town" so it is a local currency, their currency is still rand

It was first issued in 2004 to provide an internal currency for Orania as part of their quest for self-determination. The currency is not recognised anywhere outside Orania itself, and is not sanctioned by the South African Reserve Bank. - OK

It is printed in denominations of 10-, 20-, 50- and 100-ora. The 10-ora note depicts Afrikaner history, the 20-ora note Afrikaner art; the 50-ora note Afrikaner culture; and the 100-ora note Orania itself. - copyvio? (from source: <"The symbols on the Ora 10 note showed the Afrikaner's history, the Ora 20 note his art, the Ora 50 note his culture and the Ora 100 note depicted Orania," said Lombard. >)

And I am failing to find anything except "is planned, will" - it looks like failed project. Opinions? Bulwersator (talk) 04:58, 12 July 2011 (UTC)


 * The currency actually exists in Orania. The town is a settlement of Afrikaners and is a throwback to the apartheid era. – Zntrip 05:04, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

South Sudanese pound
Here is proof that the title of the article needs to be corrected from 'South Sudan pound'; http://sosanews.com/2011/07/12/s-sudan-currency-to-be-released-on-monday/. - (203.211.72.38 (talk) 05:08, 15 July 2011 (UTC))

WT:NFC discussion about articles covered by this project
Please see Wikipedia_talk:Non-free_content. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:31, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

TMI at Moneyer
Could we get some views at Talk:Moneyer on what to do with the highly detailed tables under Moneyer? To me this sort of tabular material is not an unusual way to approach numismatics, but it is all rather dense, as an editor who wishes to delete it en masse has observed. I'm not well versed in numismatics (though I make most of m contributions in the general area of ancient Rome), but I do notice that the tables uses Babelon numbers, not Crawford, for instance. Cynwolfe (talk) 12:57, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Video game virtual currencies
At Nintendo Points, the lead says: "Nintendo Points are a currency". This implies that you can buy Nintendo Points at some currency exchange marked, and that the Nintendo Points bought at one currency market are equivalent to Nintendo Points bought at any other currency market. This is wrong; for example, Nintendo Points bought at a currency market (e.g. a video game shop) in Japan are different from Nintendo Points bought at a currency market in Europe. When using the points for buying electronic games, you need points from the right geographic area. This is also shown in the exchange rate: Nintendo Points bought at a currency market in Japan cost approximately 10% more than Nintendo Points bought at a currency market in the Eurozone. If the points were equivalent, the exchange rates would probably differ much less than what is currently the case. Thus, Nintendo Points are not one currency, but several currencies. I suspect that the same also applies to Microsoft Points (and other video game currencies, if any). Compare with the CFA franc: one name, several currencies. I'm not sure where to put this comment since it affects several articles, so I'm placing it here on the project page. (212.247.11.156 (talk) 19:48, 9 August 2011 (UTC))

Query on King John penny...
Hi. Over at John of England, someone has pointed out that a photo of a coin ascribed to King John,, in fact has what seems to be "Henri" written on it. Would any of you be able to take a look at it and give an opinion on which reign it belongs to? Many thanks in advance, Hchc2009 (talk) 18:58, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Formatting calculated monetary totals?
Does anyone know if there is a template that formats money amounts. I have problem with a table that sums up monetary amounts i.e. " 0 " renders as "82E+7" instead of "82,000,000". It looks unnatural for expressing a monetary value; "Val" and "formatnum" don't address it so I was wondering if there was a template that did? Betty Logan (talk) 10:46, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Featured article review for Hero of Ukraine
nominated Hero of Ukraine for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Brad (talk) 17:11, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Coins of the Austro-Hungarian gulden
I think, this article is to extract, because on the site, there are only the coins of the hungarian part of the kingdom. It would be great, if the coins of the Austrian part of the kingdom would be build in the article.--SteEis. (talk) 09:17, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Proposed coin deletions
Just wanted to pass these discussions on:





-- Kendrick7talk 18:15, 19 November 2011 (UTC)


 * There are now a half dozen similar files up for deletion, if anyone cares. See the bottom of my talk page for links. -- Kendrick7talk 00:21, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Banknotes of South Sudan
Someone needs to write an article titled 'Banknotes of South Sudan' and upload some photos of examples of South Sudanese banknotes to illustrate them.

Of course,the article 'South Sudanese pound' would need to be linked to it.

So far,no news about any coins for South Sudan.

Have a read here; News

It would be appreciated. (203.211.71.37 (talk) 17:29, 23 November 2011 (UTC))

Currency Infobox
I suggest the addition of "date of introduction" to the Template:Infobox currency right below the "ISO code" entry. This is one of the most important data related to a currency. I want to emphasize, that this is distinct from date of adoption, as I have explained at User_talk:Thumperward. There might be several dates for adoption (see the case of the euro), but only a single date for introduction by the emitting authority (1999 January 1 for the euro). The date of adoption is rather a characteristic of a state or territory, the emitting central bank might not even have a power over the adoption (i.e. making the currency legal tender, see the case of the euro in Kosovo). Also, the date of final redemption/last day of acceptance (by the emitting bank, not the general public) should be added for obsolate currencies. Timur lenk (talk) 10:11, 15 December 2011 (UTC)