Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Olympics/Archive 21

Russian and Belarusian Flags
I was just reading the Individual Neutral Athletes at the 2024 Summer Olympics, when i saw that some user(s) have been adding a "from" column in every sport's section to differentiate the Russian athletes from Belarusian ones. This also includes flags of both the countries. But doesn't it violates the neutral nature of the this team. I do not think we should include the country from which these athletes hail from and especially not the flags. Also, are we going to list ANI as a precursor of Russia at the all time medal table.  PrinceofPunjab  TALK 06:26, 15 April 2024 (UTC)


 * I will bow to those with wider knowledge on this project, but just to observe that going back the Unified Team of the 90s, Wikipedia has always shown the national identity of competing athletes from such "groups". doktorb wordsdeeds 07:04, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The indication of nationality there is intended to reflect the value of the information rather than questioning the nature of this special team. See also Independent Olympians at the Olympic Games and Independent Olympic Participants at the 1992 Summer Olympics, which was historically a similar case. For the question of the Top ten medal rankings (incl. precursor) in all-time: I would include this if Russian athletes win medals under the IOC code (AIN), as many statistics, with an asterisk for thins case, will probably be found that way. Possible Belarusian medalists should be ignored there. But it is not a strong case, whether medals from athletes under (AIN) should apply to Russia in this table, and I would understand a rejection. Miria~01 (talk) 10:52, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
 * But flag icons here are shown as the nation represented, and they represent no country at all. Zip. No way that flag icon should be there. I don't even think we should be showing from where they hail since those two countries are banned from participating, but certainly the flags should not be there. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:06, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
 * As for example at 2024 Australian Open – Men's singles, those flag icons should certainly be omitted. -- DB 1729 talk 13:11, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
 * yes, the flags are really not necessary. But I would keep the information about nationality. Miria~01 (talk) 13:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I can see an argument for keeping the nationality (w/o flag icons) on this particular article in question. It's informative as to whether they happen to be from Russia or Belarus. But in Olympic results articles in general, there should be no mention of nationality at all. DB 1729 talk 13:39, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The Olympic results articles will likely use FlagIOCathlete which calls the AIN flag. Primefac (talk) 13:41, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
 * In keeping the strange "from" info for this article, does that mean we should add a column for other articles that have athletes who are "from" one country but compete for another? Look at Freestyle skiing at the 2022 Winter Olympics – Women's big air. The gold medal was won by Eileen Gu "from the United States." She represented China. I don't even see a footnote or mouseover for that, and I'm sure there are lots more than just her. It seems like a bad precedent to set for this one article. If they represent China, even though they are from the United States, that's all we need for the Olympics. If they represent no nation, that's good enough. Otherwise we'd need to create an article for all the athletes that have represented one nation while being "from" another nation. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:24, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
 * It would be the only article where nationality ("from" should actually be changed to "nationality") is mentioned (same as here Independent Olympians at the Olympic Games (but w/o flags)). In all Olympic results articles (as Primefac stated) and medal tables only the AIN team name would be shown with the associated flag, same as here for e.g. Shooting at the 1992 Summer Olympics – Women's 10 metre air pistol, where only the (IOP) flag and team name for Šekarić is shown. Miria~01 (talk) 20:37, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I think making this article a special case is not the best idea. And using "nationality" vs "from" is a very bad idea. The word nationality in connection with the Olympics, in any parameter, has a very distinct meaning, and it confuses the reader to add labels the Olympics refuse to use. These are independent athletes representing no country. If a reader wants to know more about the person they can click on the name link, or reference source, and find out. And this isn't the only article where this conversation should be taking place. We also have articles such as:
 * Independent Olympic Participants at the 1992 Summer Olympics
 * Individual Olympic Athletes at the 2000 Summer Olympics
 * Independent Olympic Athletes at the 2012 Summer Olympics
 * Independent Olympic Participants at the 2014 Winter Olympics
 * Independent Olympic Athletes at the 2016 Summer Olympics
 * Refugee Olympic Team at the 2016 Summer Olympics
 * Olympic Athletes from Russia at the 2018 Winter Olympics
 * IOC Refugee Olympic Team at the 2020 Summer Olympics
 * Independent Olympians at the Olympic Games
 * and it could spill over into articles such as:
 * Authorised Neutral Athletes
 * Authorised Neutral Athletes at the 2017 World Championships in Athletics
 * Authorised Neutral Athletes at the 2018 European Athletics Championships
 * Authorised Neutral Athletes at the 2019 World Athletics Championships
 * So it's not just one article here. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:47, 16 April 2024 (UTC)


 * As Fyunck points out, we have a dozen other articles where athletes 'from' various nations - who all competed at an event as neutral individuals representing no nation - are listed without mention of any nationality. It's clearly not confused any reader yet, and is neither vital information nor particularly useful information at the list articles in question. It seems unnecessary to add. Maybe some users will argue it's not necessary to remove if it's already been added, but if just for consistency it probably is best to remove it - before even getting into the debate of the athletes not belonging to any nation for the purposes of the IOC. Kingsif (talk) 23:14, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty much neutral on including the country of origin for these athletes, and so I'm fine with removing it. Note that several of the articles listed by Fyunck do actually indicate a country. If for consistency, then removing the country should be considered for those articles as well? Also Fyunck, if wider participation is desired (and it would probably help) are you thinking posting notifications at the above articles' talk pages, or moving the discussion to a more visible place? DB 1729 talk 23:42, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Ping to above comment. It doesn't look like there's any passionate views, really, so I'd just remove from all. Kingsif (talk) 23:55, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
 * To be honest, I don't edit a lot of Olympic articles... I'm just trying to help with my experience on thousands of tennis articles. I gave the best insight I could and was thinking of leaving it to others with more Olympic editing tenacity. A couple of the articles I listed actually have some flags also... I'm saying they would also be affected by decisions here unless this is a one-off article. If people want me to mention this discussion on those article talk pages I can certainly point them here. More eyes are always welcome, especially from those that edit Olympic pages profusely, since they would be the ones that would have to deal with changes against consensus in the future. note - I just added a neutral mention of this discussion at each of the talk pages I listed. There could be more pages I missed but this might bring a couple more folks with viewpoints that could help. This is the type discussion where WikiProjects shine. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:21, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I disagree with one statement. The countries of the athletes for the respective games are always mentioned if they came from several countries. Otherwise the matter is naturally unnecessary.
 * {|class="wikitable" style=font-size:90%;"

! several country origins (with nationality/flags) !! one country origin (no nationality)
 * Independent Olympians at the Olympic Games (overview from 1992-2018 -> medalists Yugoslavia, Kuwait, RUS)
 * Independent Olympic Participants at the 1992 Summer Olympics (-> Yugoslavia + N.Macedonia flags for Athletes)
 * Unified Team at the 1992 Winter Olympics (several post-soviet states)
 * Independent Olympic Athletes at the 2012 Summer Olympics (former Netherlands Antilles + South Sudan)
 * Refugee Olympic Team at the 2016 Summer Olympics (several differnt)
 * IOC Refugee Olympic Team at the 2020 Summer Olympics (several different)
 * Individual Olympic Athletes at the 2000 Summer Olympics (-> all from East Timor)
 * Independent Olympic Participants at the 2014 Winter Olympics (-> all from India)
 * Independent Olympic Athletes at the 2016 Summer Olympics (-> all from Kuwait)
 * Olympic Athletes from Russia at the 2018 Winter Olympics (-> all from Russia)
 * }
 * Although I'm more of a supporter with the information of country origins, I wouldn't feel particularly bothered except for one article (overview of Independent Olympians), as one could argue that these always concern the explicit games ( at the Summer/Winter Olympics).Miria~01 (talk) 03:03, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Olympic Athletes from Russia at the 2018 Winter Olympics (-> all from Russia)
 * }
 * Although I'm more of a supporter with the information of country origins, I wouldn't feel particularly bothered except for one article (overview of Independent Olympians), as one could argue that these always concern the explicit games ( at the Summer/Winter Olympics).Miria~01 (talk) 03:03, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Is there a non-clunky way to indicate what country they typically represent while still making clear that at this time they're not allowed to? Like perhaps "primary NOC" or something of that nature? Greenday61892 (talk) 14:49, 17 April 2024 (UTC)


 * "Typically" is an interesting word to use. There will be many athletes who have never been to the Olympics before, so they've never represented any NOC. Most who have been before will have represented one or another differently-named "not Russia" committees, because between doping etc. it's been a while since Russian athletes have been allowed to rep Russia in many competitions. So most if not all don't have any "typical" (taken as previous/most common) NOC to list. And since there's plenty athletes who represent NOCs of nations they weren't born in, we can't effectively assume and OR say that given the chance they would represent Russia or Belarus.
 * Main question should still be if a reader needs this information in this article, while considering the accuracy and consistency. Kingsif (talk) 21:37, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
 * https://olympics.com/en/olympic-games/barcelona-1992
 * Historical changes: ...The other ex-Soviet republics participated as a "unified team", although the winners were honoured under the flags of their own republics. At the opening ceremony, the flags of the former post-Soviet states were also be displayed and their names are be announced in the stadium -> Barcelona 1992 Opening Ceremony (Full Length) - youtube (linked with timestamp 1h18m8s for the Unified team in the IOC's official YouTube channel)
 * With regard to the refuge team, the countries of origin are also explicitly mentioned on the official IOC website.
 * After research, I see it as very legitimate for both the Unified and the refugee team to mention their nationality or country of origin. In view of this, I am more strongly against a blanket judgment and each article should be considered individually according to the circumstances.
 * The Olympic Charter: Chapter 2, Rule 41
 * https://olympics.com/ioc/faq/competing-and-being-part-of-the-games/can-i-compete-for-another-team-than-my-nationality
 * A competitor who is a national of two or more countries at the same time may represent either one of them, as he may elect. However, after having represented one country in the Olympic Games, in continental or regional games or in world or regional championships recognised by the relevant IF, he may not represent another country unless certain circumstances.
 * So to speak, the athletes are tied to their country NOC long before the Olympic Games by their nationality. Only if they change their nationality (three-year waiting period not starting for the former country NOC in any games or championships) can they compete for a different country NOC. Some Russians changed their nationality and where even granted an exemption to the three-year waiting period by the IOC Executive Board for the 2024 Games. In this sense, it is informative to know that these, athletes starting for (AIN) in 2024 with Belarusian or Russian passports, are not eligible to start for another country NOC. If they were, they would even have to compete for this.
 * To distinguish between the two countries can also be seen as informative, as readers easily see from the tables how many athletes of each country have passed the "rules" and whether there is perhaps a certain preponderance in the number overall and specifically in respective disciplines. Miria~01 (talk) 11:18, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
 * n this sense, it is informative to know that these, athletes starting for (AIN) in 2024 with Belarusian or Russian passports, are not eligible to start for another country NOC. - except it isn't. Adding 'country of origin' doesn't tell any reader anything about the IOC rules, which you're also misrepresenting if that's what you take from it. In reality, so many athletes change NOC affiliation, because (as you note but then seem to ignore) it just means you have to eligible through any means and not compete for another nation for an Olympic cycle. Neutral athletes are only locked in to the Neutral team for the single instance of the Olympic Games that the compete as Neutral athletes. It's simply untrue to suggest that where they were born provides limitations on what NOC they can represent, or that being a Neutral athlete affects this, or that adding a flag on a list tells anyone anything about NOC eligibility requirements. Kingsif (talk) 23:40, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Nobody can simply switch to another NOC. These are not club teams. First of all, you have to get the nationality of the corresponding country... i.e. become naturalized. And then the approval of the sports federation. It's always about nationality, not your place of birth. To be clearer, it is the registered nationality in the relevant international sports federation.Miria~01 (talk) 09:06, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * You seem to be arguing against yourself. Yes, it's about nationality, not place of birth. And the 'nationality' - thus the NOC - of these athletes for the purposes of the 2024 Games is "none". (And for the record, my reply above already explained how changing NOC works, which was not compared to club teams; your attempt to condescend that for whatever reason is not appreciated, especially when it's barely relevant.)
 * You are part stating, part mis-stating, and part trying-to-interpret IOC rules of NOC eligibility - and honestly, none of that constitutes an argument for or against including flags in any of the above articles. Do you have an opinion that has been informed by not quite understanding the IOC regs, because otherwise it's getting off topic. Kingsif (talk) 22:02, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Please look at all your claims which are partially false which I have responded to with the sources provided. But you seem to have noticed that and now you are reacting to me here with accusations.
 * Examples of your false claims or shortened statement without complete explanation:
 * 1.we have a dozen other articles where athletes 'from' various nations - who all competed at an event as neutral individuals representing no nation - are listed without mention of any nationality. - Kingsif (talk) 23:14, 16 April 2024 (UTC) -> Not true. the country origin/nationality always mentioned, if it is a special NOC, where various Ahtletes from different countries are involved (see table in the discussion):
 * 2. "There will be many athletes who have never been to the Olympics before, so they've never represented any NOC. ... And since there's plenty athletes who represent NOCs of nations they weren't born in, we can't effectively assume and OR say that given the chance they would represent Russia or Belarus" -Kingsif (talk) 21:37, 17 April 2024 (UTC) -> The participation jn continental or regional games or in world or regional championships recognised by the relevant IF, already decides your affiliation. And again it is not the place of birth, which is taken into account, it is the nationality.
 * 3. it just means you have to eligible through any means and not compete for another nation for an Olympic cycle.... It's simply untrue to suggest that where they were born provides limitations on what NOC they can represent. -Kingsif (talk) 23:40, 1 May 2024 (UTC) -> The athlete must be naturalized in this country to change to another NOC and again false claim with place of birth. Example:
 * Ilya SHYMANOVICH - World Aquatics -> Nationality: BLR; competing as neutral Athlete at Olympic Games 2024.
 * Anastasiia KIRPICHNIKOVA - World Aquatics -> Nationality FRA: Russian athlete, who, after naturalizing in France and changing their nationality at the Word Aquatics, and then with the permission of the IOC, now competes for France a the Olympic Games 2024. Russian European champion swimmer to switch allegiance to France for World Championships -  granted citizenship for the country.
 * It is clear that the reason why Russian and Belarusian athletes have to compete as neutral participants (more precise: special delegation AIN banned from using the neutral Olympic flag and Olympic anthem), is because of their registered nationality as Russian or Belarusian.
 * 4. yes, the flags are really not necessary. But I would keep the information about nationality. Miria~01 (talk) 13:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC) Please stop making false accusations against me (e.g not once place of birth was mentioned by me or another user; only by you) and get your facts right. You have repeatedly made false assumptions about the IOC rules (e.g. switching NOC without to be naturalized) as well not shown knowledge about interaction with the international sports federations. And now you trying to push through your agenda by accusing me. I would also prefer a total exclusion of all Russian and Belarusian athletes (as the World Athletics has decided for the Olympic Games), but I would never put encyclopedic added value information above my personal views. Miria~01 (talk) 23:48, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Again, many of the things you claim I have said, I have not. Many of the things you seem to think we disagree on, we do not. If you can't understand what I write, just say so, but outright insulting my intelligence is out of line, as is baselessly accusing me of having an agenda when I just stepped in to this discussion to try and get people to frame the discussion through what is most helpful to Wikipedia readers.
 * And on that point, many of your ramblings points are not only nonsensical but, I believe, ultimately irrelevant. Please try to frame your thoughts based on Wikipedia's purpose - and not on your own interpretations of IOC guidelines and petty point-scoring. Kingsif (talk) 22:23, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Please don't try to dismiss arguments that you WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT as irrelevant. I also ask you not to ignore the sources. e.g. Olympic-Charter, IOC, International Olympic Committee, p.79-81 and only take a neutral perspective.
 * Also a source from an IF (International sports federation):
 * World Sailing Policy Individual Neutral Athlete Participation, World Sailing
 * Individual sailors of Russian and Belarusian sporting nationality and their support persons, as defined in the Racing Rules of Sailing (“Support Persons”) shall only participate in the events listed in Clause 2.1 in a neutral capacity, and in no case as representatives of the Russian Federation or the Republic of Belarus, their Member National Associations (“MNA(s)”) or National Olympic Committees (“NOC(s)”. Miria~01 (talk) 09:26, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

It would be consistent to all other Olympic Wikipedia articles when specifying the nationalities for the special delegations in the tables, if they are represented by athletes of different nationalities. The information always corresponds to the nationality registered with the international sports federation and the associated NOC. The special delegations are not NOCs per se, but are made up of athletes whose registered nationality and the associated membership with this to a NOC, represent an obstacle to taking part in the Olympic Games. Mostly because their NOC has been banned or ceased to exist due to other circumstances, e.g. Dissolution of the Netherlands Antilles. Therefore the indication of nationality is of interest to the reader as the direct indication in the article allows them to see directly how many athletes of the respective NOC are affected and also the respective athlete himself without clicking through many articles. Some examples: Mir<b style="color:#EE3939">ia~01</b> (talk) 00:25, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Independent Olympic Participants at the 1992 Summer Olympics: Macedonian athletes, as the NOC has not yet been founded, but cannot compete elsewhere with their registered nationality, and the Yugoslavian athletes (registered nationality), whose NOC has been banned.
 * Independent Olympic Athletes at the 2012 Summer Olympics: NOC of South Sudan was not founded in time, after the independence of South Sudan and the Athletes of the former Netherlands Antilles with Dissolution of the Netherlands Antilles had completely different circumstances.