Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 103

Archives Table of Contents

May CoM and OoM update
The May CoM is based on this discussion The May OoM is once again a collection of opera articles which completely lack sources, including somewhat surpisingly, The Queen of Spades. Looking ahead to June.... Voceditenore (talk) 09:27, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Another possible addition to the May list would be Giacomo Antonio Perti who turns 350 in June. We lack articles on L'Incoronazione di Dario, La Rosaura, and Astianatte.4meter4 (talk) 09:40, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

June Composer(s) of the Month

 * The Composer of the Month collaboration focuses on composers in the opera corpus whose works still lack articles

I'd be in favour of using this proposal by Smerus, three composers whose grand operas premiered at the Paris Opera
 * Louise Bertin - La Esmeralda (1836)
 * Louis Niedermeyer – Stradella (1837) and Marie Stuart (1844)
 * Michael Balfe – L'etoile de Seville (1845)

Any other suggestions? Voceditenore (talk) 09:27, 1 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I think Smerus' suggestion sounds good.4meter4 (talk) 09:32, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

June Opera(s) of the Month

 * The Opera of the Month collaboration focuses on improving existing articles

I have a further list of opera articles lacking sources, enough for June, if there are no other suggestions. Voceditenore (talk) 09:27, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I think we should continue with referencing articles lacking sources.4meter4 (talk) 09:33, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Me too. I'd like to finish off this sourcing 'drive'. It can have the added advantage of inspiring editors to expand the article at the same time. GuillaumeTell did a brilliant job with Paul Bunyan! I also occasionally find that when there aren't any sources, it's because the article is a copyvio from the "omitted" source. So we kill several birds with one stone. Voceditenore (talk) 10:33, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the compliment. It needs a Performance History section, though.  For the synopsis, I simply worked my way through the libretto, and have been wondering if this should be referenced and if so, how? --GuillaumeTell 10:46, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Normally if there's a link to the complete libretto in the "External links" section, it's assumed in absence of contrary information that the synopsis comes from or can be verified by the libretto. If the libretto is still in copyright, simply list it in the sources section with the bibliographic info (publisher, date, etc.). I have used libretti as references for cast lists, etc. and when I do, I list it like a normal source. Examples here and here. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 06:08, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Jonas Kaufmann
A red link editor added a story to Jonas Kaufmann, I reverted as not encyclopedic, he added it again, saying it's all referenced and true. I don't doubt that but still think it's not relevant. Opinions, please, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:40, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I would agree that a young singer being in need a teacher is scarcely notable  almost - instinct 13:52, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm sure it is true from what I can see. You can search the book . See also this article. And I don't think it's irrelevant at all. Teachers who have greatly influenced the singer's style (and even how they met the teacher) are highly relevant aspects of a singer's biography. Having said that, it could be copyedited for tone, idiomatic English, etc. But copyediting is what's needed not wholesale reverting. Voceditenore (talk) 14:04, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Will you, please? As a reader, I still would like to see more on Kaufmann's specific voice and presentation of Lohengrin in Bayreuth. He will not do it again, btw, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:11, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Help on sinoidalnogo?
The article on Andrey Labinsky previously included a reference to Labinsky acting as "soloist Sinoidalnogo of the Znamensky cathedral chorus" after quitting school. I couldn't find any information or references on "sinoidalnogo." Anybody familiar with this term? Thanks. Jo3sampl (talk) 02:48, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
 * If you google sinoidalnogo you'll get lots of mirrors of the Labinsky article, but there's also this, which is about ancient Novgorod in Russia. Unfortunately, it's not very easy to read as some sort of automated process has messed up a lot of Russian characters (I think).  Looking at the article, I find, under the garbled heading "1ISTOKI our knowledge of ancient Novgorod", some stuff about chronicles.  The second paragraph begins "5Naibolee ancient of all the lists of n Chronicles - so 5nazyvaemy Sinoidalny list of the First Novgorod Chronicle. 5R Unfortunately, most of Sinoidalnogo list has been lost, and - - 5povestvovanie conducted with 1015. The events described in the left 5topisi systematically communicated to 1333, and, fortunately, 5bolee later copies of the record are references to the co-5bytiyah occurred in Novgorod until 1015...."  There might be further clues in Novgorod or Novgorod First Chronicle.  Or you could find someone on Wikipedia who knows Russian (say, User:Ezhiki) or ask the creator of the article at User talk:Сергей Соковнин.  Hope this helps a bit. --GuillaumeTell 10:38, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I had seen the yqyq page, but I didn't get as much out of it as you. On one search result page I got some kind of inkling that the word relates to "Eastern" music or practices in the context of the Orthodox Chirch in Russia. I couldn't find anything else, but I emailed a local Russian Orthodox church member here in the US, and he'll try his pastor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jo3sampl (talk • contribs) 00:11, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It's possibly a spelling mistake for "sinodalnego", the genitive form of the adjective "synodal" (to do with the Church synod). It would help to have the original Russian though. --Folantin (talk) 09:40, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The article is an object lesson as to why you should never use Google Translate to produce new pages. The opera Франческа да Римини has been converted into "Francheska yes Rimini", when it's simply the Italian name "Francesca da Rimini" (you don't need much Russian to see how that mistake came about and how funny it is). --Folantin (talk) 10:04, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Matthew Baker (bass-baritone)
This unreferenced blp is up for deletion. Not sure if it is worth being rescued. Also, I just discovered a mess of a new article: George Zervanos. 4meter4 (talk) 04:08, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Baker looks reasonably notable if he's sung for William Christie and is making recordings. The article needs a lot of work, however.  WP:RS could be problematic, though - a review that I found on Musicweb International says "But if there is a weak link it is, alas, the Aeneas [Purcell, not Berlioz] (Matthew Baker). He is not very imposing and almost every phrase smacks of the narcissistic." --GuillaumeTell 10:48, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I've added enough sources to remove the BLP PROD on Matthew Baker, but it may still end up at an AfD. I also stubbed it. It was a straight copypaste from his website and have left a note on the talk page of the article's creator with some guidance. Voceditenore (talk) 12:28, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Eyes please: Donald Smith (tenor) and Robin Donald
The first one has now been overwritten at least twice with a real mess. As I've already reverted it once today, I've left it, tagged it for the multiple and very obvious issues, and put a note at Talk:Donald Smith (tenor). The second one was overwritten with copyvio paste from the subject's web page by the same editor. I've reverted it and so far this hasn't been re-reverted. I've left a message with more guidance on the editor's talk page, but I'm not sure, how much effect it will have. Voceditenore (talk) 07:11, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Vandal at I puritani
Keep an eye on this. An IP changed the cast list and image to insert completely made up names even in the file name for the image which resulted in it disappearing from the article. When I reverted, a brand new user (B Dizzle DP) restored the IP's edits. I've now reverted that as well and left a note on their talk page, but there may be further attempts. Voceditenore (talk) 07:04, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Daniel Goojvin
Just saw this article. Not sure if he is notable.4meter4 (talk) 01:45, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Nope. PROD. Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 02:25, 30 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Has now gone to AfD. See Articles for deletion/Daniel Goojvin Voceditenore (talk) 13:58, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Category:Opera singers who died in Nazi concentration camps
The category is being discussed for deletion or merging here. Incidentally, a least 9 new stub articles have been created for opera singers who died in the Holocaust. Almost all of them appear to need a lot of clean up. I've already "done" Magda Spiegel, Richard Breitenfeld, and Erhard Wechselmann and have tagged Ottilie Metzger-Lattermann and the rest for cleanup. They're at Category:Opera singers who died in the Holocaust, if anyone wants to have a bash at them.

On a side note, I found these articles purely by accident. Alas, the bot that used to alert us to new opera articles is no longer operating (last run 20 March 2011) and looks to be out of commission for a long time. A real pity! Voceditenore (talk) 12:31, 5 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Update: Decision was "Keep". Voceditenore (talk) 09:45, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Singers of the month
One area which I think our project has not collaborated well on is on opera singers. I think it would be beneficial to have a "Singers of the Month" section. Given that there are many poorly referenced singer articles (by which I mean they are either completely unreferenced or lack inline citations), I think it would be best to have this section highlight improving existing articles.4meter4 (talk) 02:21, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Stanislao Gastaldon
Just did a big expansion of this article and in the process, discovered a whopping error in the New Grove Dictionary of Opera. See the Musica proibita section re "A common misconception [...]" and the accompanying footnote. Does the "Verga, Giovanni" article by Barbara Reynolds in the NGDO still say what I've quoted in the footnote? Or has it been corrected in a later version? Also, once I've finished off the Gastaldon article, I'm going to start an article on his opera Mala Pasqua!. I presume the exclamation point in the title is OK? That's how it appears in the libretto - there's a image of the cover in the Gastaldon article. Voceditenore (talk) 18:14, 11 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Wow! What a great job expanding the article on Gastaldon. I hope you put this article up for a DYK spot. I don't have a copy of the NGDO so I can't answer that question, but I support the inclusion of the exclamation point in the title. Once the article is created, I suggest creating a redirect for the title without the exclamation point.4meter4 (talk) 20:08, 11 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Just on the exclamation mark - after I created Kommilitonen!, I supplied, by email, a link to the article to someone who was interested, but somehow it didn't work, and the ! seemed to be the problem. After creating a redirect without the ! I supplied a link via the redirect which worked fine.  I agree with 4meter4 that the ! should be included - as with Mamma Mia! or Westward Ho! (novel), it's an integral part of the title. --GuillaumeTell 21:16, 11 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the expansion! For the "!": no problem also in Erschallet, ihr Lieder, erklinget, ihr Saiten! BWV 172, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:21, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Ah, the (very) mixed blessings of a DYK... The article appeared on the front page today and within minutes, it had an IP trying to "improve" the translation of the first line of "Musica proibita", another IP demanding citation needed at the end of a comma despite the 25 inline cites in the article (including one at the end of the paragraph!) and this rather endearing bit of vandalism. Voceditenore (talk) 18:37, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * re the endearing vandalism, the author obviously had never seen this operatic lip ornament. Scarabocchio (talk) 15:39, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

The Lodger (opera)
I've just crawled under the end-of-May wire and done what I could with Phyllis Tate's opera, but haven't found an awful lot of information. Tate isn't in Grove Opera or the Oxford Dictionary of Opera, and only has a short entry in Viking (However, there's a quote there about the opera which I can plunder). The premiere date is 16 July 1960 according to Cassaglia but 14 July according to Dutch Wikipedia. Cassaglia's cast list differs slightly from the one at Edition Peters. Only one of the refs that I have has anything resembling a synopsis (it's an excerpt from a pre-premiere article in The Times in June 1960, to which I don't have access), and my Opera Magazines only go back to 1972. There are also a couple of articles in JSTOR and The Musical Times, neither of which I can access. All help and additional contributions welcome. --<b style="color:forestgreen;">Guillaume</b><i style="color:blue;">Tell</i> 21:55, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks so much for starting this. I had had a look 'round at the beginning of the month but got discouraged when I came up with pretty much the same few sources as you. Works from the mid-20th century are not easy to source online. A large chunk of the stuff written about them tends to be behind paywalls, or not even digitised yet. It was far easier to research Mala Pasqua!, despite its obscurity. Voceditenore (talk) 11:38, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I put the article up for DYK, but it was rejected initially because it wasn't long enough. I did manage to scrape up a few more characters from the sources I'd already used, so it's now going through the DYK mill, but Roscelese has very kindly made available some articles from The Musical Times which will flesh out the synopsis, performance history and critical reception.  I might even be able to start an article on Tate's The What D'ye Call It! --<b style="color:forestgreen;">Guillaume</b><i style="color:blue;">Tell</i> 15:34, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
 * In ‘A Register of First Performances of English Operas’ by Eric Walter White the premiere date is given as 14 July 1960.Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 20:03, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
 * On the other hand, Mosco Carner, in an article on Tate in The Musical Times, Vol. 105, No. 1451 (Jan., 1964), p.20, says "The Lodger was commissioned by the Royal Academy of Music, and first performed by them on 16 July 1960." That makes it 2-all. --<b style="color:forestgreen;">Guillaume</b><i style="color:blue;">Tell</i> 21:08, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

AfD: Michael Fabiano
The article is being discussed at Articles for deletion/Michael Fabiano. Voceditenore (talk) 08:15, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Louise Bertin's La Esmeralda
As one of this month's CoMs, I was planning to create and develop Louise Bertin's La Esmeralda which kind of fits in with another WikiProject I'm involved in. But I don't want to duplicate work. Was or is anyone else planning to work on this one? Voceditenore (talk) 10:52, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I have something to throw in but I won't find the time to do the article properly myself; I will be very glad to build on anything you do (assuming you leave any bells unrung :-}) --Smerus (talk) 20:03, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Jane Rhodes
Opera News just reported the death of soprano Jane Rhodes here if anyone cares to create an article on her. Page 407 of The Grove Book of Opera Singers also has an entry on her written by Max Loppert which can be found here.4meter4 (talk) 04:05, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Die Stadt hinter dem Strom
Looking for details about Die Stadt hinter dem Strom (opera), I found a performance history of the Theater Wiesbaden, which says 1953-1955, 1957-1958 (p 427). If these figures are the years when it was played in Wiesbaden - which I would assume - it says that it was played more than once (good news) but contradicts the premiere date we had so far? Do other opera sources tell more? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:06, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Needless to say, the history contains a wealth of information, for Theater Wiesbaden and opera in general, - I don't have time though to use it now, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:03, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Gerda, is that link you gave correct? It doesn't go to a performance history of the Theater Wiesbaden. It is list of musical works and stage plays based on the Orpheus myth. Die Stadt hinter dem Strom appears in it, but it doesn't say what you appear to have found and it's only 71 pages. Voceditenore (talk) 14:12, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, it was the wrong one, trying again WI, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:23, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Giovanni Francesco di Caspará
Per this discussion, I have nominated the article for deletion as a hoax. See Articles for deletion/Giovanni Francesco di Caspará. – Voceditenore (talk) 13:26, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

English Opera Group
This article seems legit, but it has no references at all. Can anyone add a couple? All the best, -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:50, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you, GT and Voce! -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:14, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Layla Claire
Just saw this article. Not sure that this young artist is notable yet. She's in the Met's young artist program but doesn't appear to have performed in any major productions yet. What do you all think?4meter4 (talk) 00:47, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I've cleaned this up. It's basically a 3 sentence stub with links to blog reviews, virtually no information about her performances, and sourced almost entirely to official bios in their various forms. Having said that, it probably would pass an AfD for two of the awards alone, Queen Elisabeth Competition in Belgium and the Wilhelm Stenhammar International Music Competition (the rest are fluff, basically student buraries and grants). She did make her Met debut last year, albeit in the tiny role of Tebaldo in Don Carlos, but appears to have performed as a soloist with the Atlanta Symphony and the Boston Symphony. There's also much more 'real' press coverage than indicated by the article. See . Voceditenore (talk) 07:22, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Kathleen Ferrier
Kathleen Ferrier is currently up for peer review at Peer review/Kathleen Ferrier/archive1. User:Brianboulton has recently improved the article greatly with I believe the aim of taking it to FA. This would be wikipedia's first FA class article about an opera singer if/when it passes. Any comments at the peer review by our project members would be helpful to him in this excellent endeavor.4meter4 (talk) 23:47, 13 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Ferrier is now at FA review. If you care to leave a comment please do at Featured article candidates/Kathleen Ferrier/archive1.4meter4 (talk) 03:15, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Portal:Opera
You may notice that the "Featured Content" section in the portal is currently blank. This is only temporary. The editor who built the portal for us has arranged for a new bot to automatically update the content in that section from now on. Once the bot runs later today, it will re-appear. Voceditenore (talk) 06:49, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
 * New format now in place. Voceditenore (talk) 16:53, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

July/August Composer(s) of the Month
There are several important August birthdays I think we should highlight. Given the number listed below, I would suggest splitting up this list into two parts, some for July and some for August. Alternatively we could just work on the whole list for both months.4meter4 (talk) 09:56, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Sound good?4meter4 (talk) 09:45, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Gian Carlo Menotti (turns 100): The Unicorn, the Gorgon, and the Manticore, Martin's Lie, The Most Important Man, Tamu-Tamu, The Egg (opera), Goya (opera)
 * Anton Stepanovich Arensky (turns 150): Dream on the Volga, Rafael (both have been recorded)
 * Ambroise Thomas (turns 200): La double échelle, Le caïd, Le songe d'une nuit d'été, Raymond (opera), Psyché (Thomas), Françoise de Rimini, La cour de Célimène
 * Yevstigney Fomin (turns 250): The Novgorod Hero Boyeslayevich, The Coachmen at the Relay Station, Orpheus and Eurydice (opera), The Americans (opera), Chloris and Milo
 * Jacopo Peri (turns 450): La Flora o vero Il Natal de' Fiori
 * Yes (except that I've never heard of Fomin). I'm hoping to see Thomas's La cour de Célimène at Wexford, but that won't be until October/November. --<b style="color:forestgreen;">Guillaume</b><i style="color:blue;">Tell</i> 10:13, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Given your interest, I just added that opera to the list above. I have good sources for the Menotti works, so that is where my efforts will be concentrated. 4meter4 (talk) 07:58, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
 * If you want to get them on the main page, you're starting very late. Your only chance would be Featured Pictures if you act fast, or DYK, if you timed it quite well. Anton Arensky and Gian Carlo Menotti are July birthdays (not August; you misspoke on that account); I'd suggest setting them for July, and the rest (August birthdays) for August. There's also a 5x expansion rule at DYK; if there's short articles on their works (or themselves), which haven't been at DYK before, you could do a 5x expansion and thus get them on DYK for those as well. But you'll need to time this very well; consider working on them in userspace until 3-5 days before, then putting them into mainspace, suggesting them on DYK, and pushing strongly for them to appear on the appropriate birthday. You may also be able to convince DYK to let you work on them in advance, and have them held back to the birthday, but that'd need arranged in advance.
 * Good luck! Adam Cuerden (talk) 17:53, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, a third possibility is Featured sounds, if you can find freely licensed recordings. As one of the FS directors, I think I could probabaly arrange something in the scheduling. I'm not sure how likely finding something is, though. Adam Cuerden (talk) 20:04, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Adam, the point of 'Composer of the Month', despite its name, is to create new articles on the operas by the composers. It's less about the articles on the composers themselves, although certainly improvements on the composers articles are welcome. I'm certainly not going for FA on any of these, but I may nominate for DYK. Thanks for pointing out my error. I started looking for July birthdays, but then wound up finding so many for August my brain got muddled somewhere. lol I like keeping the lists together personally because it has a wider variety of entries which will appeal to the interests of more editors in this project. Further, since this is summer, many project members go on lengthy vacations at this time and giving them 2 months on this list would be beneficial for those who are traveling/busy. As I recall some project members were gone for pretty much all of July or August in recent years. I myself will be doing intensive graduate coursework for most of July which will basically mean I'm not going to be editing hardly at all. The majority of my Menotti work is most likely going to happen in August. 4meter4 (talk) 23:36, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I know what they are, I coded them. =) But the point of these selections are the birthdays, and the only way to officially celebrate the birthdays that I see is DYKs on the appropriate dates. Adam Cuerden (talk) 23:53, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The current composers being honored in the May COM is a cross selection of those with birthdays from April-June, and i believe we did something similar for another COM a few months back. My suggestion wouldn't be the first time this year that we've done something like what I'm proposing. Also, last summer we carried over July COM to August because so many of us were gone in July. Let's do what is most practical for those editors who regularly participate in contributing work to the Project's COM section. DYK/FA is a nice bonus, but it isn't the focus of this project (Also to get a Menotti or Arensky birthday DYK you would have to write the article in June anyway to get it through the review process in time, and it's better to write the August birthday articles in July for the same reason). We honor the birthdays as a project by selecting them for COM and improving coverage of their works by writing articles.4meter4 (talk) 00:57, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
 * There is another way of celebrating birthdays/anniversaries and that is to book an article to appear on WP Main Page on the relevant day. For example, the Shakespeare authorship question (in which I had a small hand - don't ask!) appeared on 23 April.  However, articles (I think) need to be FAs, composer articles are mostly the province of the Composers Project, and there aren't many FA opera articles. --<b style="color:forestgreen;">Guillaume</b><i style="color:blue;">Tell</i> 10:39, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Booking a day is only possible for FA status articles, and is not always a guarantee (i.e. Rinaldo couldn't get its desired spot on the date of the 300th Anniversary because 2 other articles with centenials also were gunning for that day). DYK slots can also be reserved 6 weeks in advance. I certainly agree that FA is a great goal to shoot for, and I have recently been invloved with getting Rinaldo and Nixon in China to FA status. I am familiar with the FA process, and know that it is very time consuming. Getting an article ready for FA review takes time, and the review process itself can take over a month when you consider the time needed for a peer review and then having the article sit at FA review anywhere from 2-5 weeks. At this point, FA is not a realistic goal for any of these composers unless concentrated work were to be started now and a peer review was submitted by early June. But we already have COM set for this month and next. So... I think FA is out. DYK of course is still fine, but submissions would need to happen about 2 weeks prior to the requested dates (Since Menotti and Arensky were born in early July submissions would need to happen in late June. I often put together the DYK queues for the main page, so I am very familiar with review process and how long it takes). Up til now we haven't ever considered DYK/GA/FA etc. when making COM decissions. If this is something we want to do more of, I would suggest next year celebrating "March birthdays" in January and "June birthdays" in April, etc. to give people time to go through DYK/FA review.4meter4 (talk) 11:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
 * [Unindent] Perhaps if important anniversaries were noted for a year in advance, somewhere on this page? Adam Cuerden (talk) 20:29, 3 May 2011 (UTC)Then plans could be made as appropriate. Mentioning it two to three months in advance gives very little time to plan anything. Adam Cuerden (talk) 20:29, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
 * That's a good idea. Perhaps a calendar page could be created for the project. Remember though, to get a DYK now for a date request the article can be created no earlier than 6 weeks in advance. An article older than 6 weeks will not be featured. That is why I suggested doing 2 months prior, to still allow DYK submissions. We usually set COM in advance, so those going for FA or GA could at least get all their research together before the actual COM month.4meter4 (talk) 23:01, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
 * That's true, but we may as well have it noted well in advance, so that if people decide to go for FA instead, they'll know. Would a simple bullet-pointed list work? Adam Cuerden (talk) 04:15, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Let's not put the cart in front of the horse. I'd still like more regular contributors like Voceditenore, Michael Bednarek, Gerda, GuillaumeTell, Smerus, etc. to put in their thoughts in before we start filling in the details/implementing anything. After all, these are the core editors who are involved with COM and anything we do should be about improving their editing experience in addition to improving the project. Best.4meter4 (talk) 04:56, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

I think a simple bulletted list of upcoming anniversaries, WikiProject Opera/Anniversaries, would be a useful thing to have. It can be a resource both for deciding on the XoM's and for individual editors who might like to do something on their own. We can post a link to it as a permanent first message on this page. As for letting the list and "getting on the front page" always drive the XoM's, I'm a little more wary. Quite wary in fact. In my experience, asking for small incremental improvements (e.g. sourcing, adding specific sections, stub expansion) and creation of missing articles is much more likely to lead to participation and an actual result than going for FA. Voceditenore (talk) 06:38, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with that assessment. I do not think factoring in DYK/FA concerns into COM would best fit with the editing habits of the major contributors to this project. However, an upcoming anniversaries page might inspire some individually motivated work which could lead to FAs/DYKs.4meter4 (talk) 07:39, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I've created the anniversaries page now at WikiProject Opera/Anniversaries with a few entries to get it started. Feel free to add to it. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 14:50, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Lolita (opera)
I gave Lolita a start, my first attempt at an opera, German premiere tonight, synopsis s. the novel, help welcome, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:33, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I have tidied and Englished a bit. I left a number of 'red links' but unless you are planning to do articles on these people soon, I think you might consider removing the links. Best, --Smerus (talk) 15:05, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you and the other helpers! I reduced the red links (the conductor who stepped in for the GMD ...). I also removed the link Ora pro nobis which is pretty useless. The opera is going to appear on the Main page (in prep, with the Internationale Maifestspiele Wiesbaden. Can you help me with the scoring? There are some instruments and abbr. in the listing which I don't know, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:10, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for Scoring and a start of Synopsis. I added a bit and started Music. Found two interesting Schott refs on (their) contemporary opera in general, "Crime on stage" (en/de) and "Musiktheater seit 1990" (de), maybe good for other works as well, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:28, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The opera is now in prep for DYK, thanks again to anyone involved, including enhancement of a picture. I found a good synopsis (in German), but wonder if the source it considered reliable, so I placed it under External links. The "reliable source" FAZ printed (in the General Edition, not just Rhein-Main area) the nonsense that the Wiesbaden production was the second ever (thank goodness they didn't put that online), --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:47, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Should this unwritten opera also be included? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:09, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Singer categories
As there have been no further responses or updates since 24 October I have archived the discussion here. Feel free to raise it again, if anyone thinks it's important or has any updates. Voceditenore (talk) 10:21, 11 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I know its been a while since we talked about this, but I decided to be bold and nominate the cats for re-naming at Categories for discussion/Log/2011 May 23. Please take part in this discussion. Thanks.4meter4 (talk) 18:54, 23 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Update: Still open and needs further participants. Voceditenore (talk) 09:45, 9 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Outcome: Now closed with the summary: "The result of the discussion was: No consensus. Separate categories may be the best next step forward." – Voceditenore (talk) 08:46, 12 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Given the outcome of the discussion, does anyone have any ideas for a less controvercial solution?4meter4 (talk) 13:36, 12 June 2011 (UTC)


 * As I said at CfD, the problem originally came up when quite a few biographies were being written about Bach specialists, some of whom have supposedly never sung in operas. It would help to know how many actually fit this description, because most of them have sung in at least one opera, even if it's not their primary repertoire, and the original proposal was using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. There might be a few alternatives. One is Category:Classical singers as a subcat of Category:Singers by genre (If there are enough of them I guess you could create subcategories under Category:Singers by genre and nationality instead. If the goal is specifically to make it to make it a sub cat of voice type rather than genre then possibly create Category: Classical foo under Category:Singers by voice type as a separate sub cat from Category:Operatic foo . There seemed to be some support for that at the CfD, but be aware that it will difficult to define the categories so as to exclude singers who are or claim to be classically trained but perform largely popera and couldn't sing the solos in the St John Passion or Beethoven's 9th to save their souls, e.g. Katherine Jenkins and Paul Potts It would probably better to discuss setting up either of these two categories with WikiProject Classical Music. A third option involves re-describing the various Operatic foo categories to include performances in oratorio and as soloists in symphonic choral works. They are currently all of the type "Operatic tenors are men who sing tenor roles in operas for opera companies in opera houses." This was done in April 2008  following this discussion. Although that might prove controversial. Voceditenore (talk) 16:55, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

The Genius of Valmiki?
New article, completely unreferenced, although there seems to be plenty of material about it in reliable sources. However, most of them don't call it an opera. I provisionally bannered for WPO but don't know enough about the subject to tell whether this would really come under our scope or is best left to WikiProject Theatre. Voceditenore (talk) 16:25, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Jonas Kaufmann II
I don't think this is enzyclopedic? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:26, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree, plus there is no citation for the information. --Robert.Allen (talk) 16:08, 2 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I reverted it 4 hours ago per "unsourced claim added to a biography of a living person" when I saw Gerda's note . I've put Kaufmann's article on my watchlist as well. Voceditenore (talk) 16:48, 2 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Well the event was notable enough to be the main subject of this article in The New York Times, as well as articles in many other international media outlets (see, , , for a few examples). Google news shows that several hundred media outlets carried the story.4meter4 (talk) 04:14, 3 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Let's return to the start: I believe it's true and supported, but is it enzyclopedic? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:54, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

As it was phrased it was silly, snide and not encyclopedic. He was one of four major stars who pulled out of the tour, two of them even later than he and Borodina did, and none of the sources state that radiation levels were lower than in Europe. His withdrawal was simply cited to "personal reasons". For all we know he may have been afraid of earthquakes not radiation. Or, he may have had completely different reasons which are... er... personal. I suppose if someone insists and it were accurately worded and sourced, it could go in. But frankly, it's a non-event bordering on trivia and I wouldn't include it, especially in an article that brief. Opera singers cancel all the time. It's one of the reasons why I strenuously try to avoid living singer biographies. They get skewed by what people see in newspapers and plunk into the article with no context. More often than not these types of editors know little about the subject and lack any kind of perspective. Or they are disgruntled fans or detractors who just want to put the boot in. OK rant over.;-) Voceditenore (talk) 10:33, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I absolutely agree which is why I haven't attempted to restore the content. I was merely trying to point out that it wasn't made up content or a blp issue.4meter4 (talk) 11:14, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I didn't think you wanted to restore it.;-) I was referring to the IP. When "drive-by" editors are challenged to provide a reference, they rarely return with one—too much trouble. Interestingly, the IP is from Tokyo. Disgruntled fan who bought a very expensive ticket for Don Carlos months in advance? Best, Voceditenore (talk) 12:41, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Now a fan made him a Heldentenor. Could a voice expert improve the simple "spinto"? He has sung Wagner in moderation, but that doesn't make him a Heldentenor, as I understand it, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:23, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I've re-written the lede which was pretty awful to begin with. Actually the whole article is a prime example of when "writing by committee" doesn't work, made even worse by random drive-by additions with no attempt to fit them into a coherent narrative. I might break my taboo on living singers and give it a good going over and expansion some day. In the meantime I added a photo of him that I took after the dress rehearsal of Tosca at the Royal Opera House in 2008. Voceditenore (talk) 08:37, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Nice shot, article and pic, thank you, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:35, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

La Grande-Duchesse de Gérolstein / Orlando finto pazzo
Someone dropped a big plot synopsis in this article that appears to be a copyvio (according to a note on the talk page). Can anyone rewrite (and preferably shorten) it in their own words; or else translate the French Wikipedia plot synopsis? Best regards, -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:25, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
 * As a temporary measure, I've added a verbatim one from a public domain source. See Talk:La Grande-Duchesse de Gérolstein for more.
 * On a similar note, the other day, I stumbled across a similarly dropped in synopsis for Orlando finto pazzo. The editor had already had one article deleted as a blatant copyvio (Bill Bankes-Jones). So it raised alarm bells. I've done extensive phrase searches on Google, and nothing comes up, so I left it. But it may have come from a printed programme somewhere and probably the 2000 production directed by Bankes-Jones, the first one since 1714 . Voceditenore (talk) 09:22, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Cornélie Falcon
User:Robert.Allen points out here a notable division of opinion as to Falcon's year of birth. Anyone out there got any ideas on this? --Smerus (talk) 10:54, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Grove Music Online (Philip E.J. Robinson/Benjamin Walton) gives 1814, citing B. Braud: Une reine de chant: Cornélie Falcon (Le Puy-en-Velay, 1913); C. Bouvet: Cornélie Falcon (Paris, 1927); Anon.: "Les Cancans de l’Opéra" (MS, c. 1836–8), Paris, Bibliothèque-Musée de l'Opéra. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:48, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, that Grove Online ref is in the footnote, as well as Bouvet, who is probably the source of the 1814 date. I favor the 1814 date and we use it in the lead, since Bouvet clearly researched her early family history in detail. (He gives the dates of birth for her siblings and writes of baptisms, all of which can fortunately be seen in a Google Books snippet view!) I have not been able to find a listing at WorldCat or Google Books for the Braud book. I think for me this may be the first time I have not found a library listing for a book cited in a reliable source. --Robert.Allen (talk) 18:39, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Barthélémy Braud's "Une reine de chant: Cornélie Falcon" wasn't a book. It was a paper he presented at the Société scientifique et agricole de la Haute-Loire on January 10, 1913 . It was published in the Bulletin historique, scientifique, littéraire, artistique et agricole illustré publié par la Société scientifique et agricole de la Haute-Loire (quite a mouthful!). It's online at the Gallica site here. – Voceditenore (talk) 09:27, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, VdT, v. interesting: and answers the question as Braud cites the acte de naissance which gives 29 January 1814, 12.15 pm. --Smerus (talk) 12:22, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
 * By the way there is a printed edition of 'Les Cancans de l'opera' given in Grove as MS (altho' presnetly out of print): see here. It is quite a jolly romp through the era, with details of Fromental Halevy's mistresses, etc.--Smerus (talk) 12:26, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, all this certainly puts the Wikipedia article way ahead of most other sources on this singer! Congratulations editors! --Robert.Allen (talk) 19:39, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Featured in today's WP:DYK, along with Stradella (opera). --Smerus (talk) 13:27, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * as the lead! (Will show here tomorrow.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:41, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Zélie de Lussan
This lady, pictured above on 17 June, had a broad range. I would like to read that in the lead, some readers may not know Carmen, and she sang Nanetta also. In the archive I placed her as a mezzo-soprano because that is not as crowded. Right? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:50, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:49, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. ;-) Where it goes in the DYK archive doesn't really matter. I gather that reference books differ as to whether she was a soprano (with a mezzo-like timbre and extension) or a mezzo with a soprano extension (e.g. J. B. Steane in Grove). I'm wondering if the article itself should be listed in both categories as a finding aid to readers. Voceditenore (talk) 06:43, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Done, a performer of Carmen 2,000 times should also be in mezzo. No nationality cat yet for her, American in France. There are many other singers who should be in both voice cats, some singing mezzo early, such as Teresa Zylis-Gara (Octavian), some later, such as June Card. But cats are not my main interest, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:51, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Dark Sisters (opera)
This new article by a new wikipedian could use some experienced hands.4meter4 (talk) 15:18, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I've copyedited and "opera-fied" it.;-) It sounds like an interesting work, although frankly, I wish people would wait until closer to the premiere (and preferably after) before creating such articles. The composer hasn't completely finished writing it yet (as far as I can see) and the premiere cast etc. could easily change before its scheduled premiere 5 months from now. Voceditenore (talk) 06:33, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Interesting development. The "new Wikipedian" turned out to be not quite new after all. ;-) Voceditenore (talk) 06:11, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

New opera categories
Recently someone created a few new categories: operas based on literature, operas based on plays, operas based on novels, operas based on art, etc. I believe these categories are inappropriate. An opera is never based on a play or a novel, only the libretto might be. An opera composer can get his subject matter from the world of art (e.g. Mathis der Maler by Hindemith), but that does not mean that one can say that the opera is based on art. In my view opera is an independent musical form, that can not be said to be based on other forms of art. Best regards. 81.83.132.137 (talk) 16:45, 18 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I completely disagree with that assertion. First of all the libretto is just as much a part of the opera as the music is and to divorce the two as you seem to be doing would be ridiculous. The words/story are just as important as the music, and indeed the best composers write their music in a way which will enhance the power and drama of the text/plot.4meter4 (talk) 16:56, 18 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Are those really recent? Some have definitely been around for a while. In any case, I agree with 4meter4; it is certainly appropriate to categorize operas by what they are based on. (But Mathis der Maler shouldn't be in that category; it's about the painter's life and doesn't belong with things like Pictures at an Exhibition and Isle of the Dead. I've removed it.) Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 02:32, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Boris Mitchell AFD
The discussion is at Articles for deletion/Boris Mitchell Voceditenore (talk) 16:51, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Singer's name in title
Example: I looked for Elena Garanca (mentioned in FAZ like that) and only after digging further found Elīna Garanča. I installed redirects for last name and international performer's name. Please: if creating an article on a name with special characters, insert a redirect without them! Or might we use the performer's name to start with? It's Pina Bausch, not Philippina Bausch. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:16, 28 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, it's always to a good idea to make redirects for non-diacritic and other alternative spellings. But having said that, Elīna Garanča is appropriate for the primary title here. She uses it on her official website in English and on her recordings for Deutsche Grammophon. The way the Pina Bausch article currently begins seems fine to me, titled for the name she's primarily known under and her full name given in the lede. Voceditenore (talk) 08:38, 28 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I didn't check her personal site, just saw an international newspaper. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:25, 28 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Not just special characters. The other day I wondered why there wasn't an article for Lucia Valentini-Terrani, then discovered that it was entitled Lucia Valentini Terrani.  I have no idea which (if either) is correct - Grove has the hyphen, the Opera News obituary doesn't - but was surprised that there wasn't a redirect.  (After creating one, I used this handy but rather quirky piece of software to locate articles where she ought to have been wikilinked one way or the other but wasn't.) --<b style="color:forestgreen;">Guillaume</b><i style="color:blue;">Tell</i> 10:20, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Two new Featured Articles
Congratulations to Brian Boulton (and his colleagues) for bringing Kathleen Ferrier to FA status. Ditto to Tim Riley (and his colleagues) for English National Opera. Both articles have been added to the rotation at Portal:Opera. – Voceditenore (talk) 10:37, 29 June 2011 (UTC)