Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 109

Archives Table of Contents

A minor challenge from U.S. National Public Radio
I'm listening to KUSC, my local NPR/classical music station, with the current show being "VoiceBox" with Chloe Veltman. She says -- "Opera choruses are very important, and are often some of the biggest and often requested numbers -- but even opera aficionados can rarely name a single member of a chorus, let alone describe what it takes to sing in one. Wikipedia doesn't even have an entry for opera chorus.  Google doesn't help you much either." Well then. A red link. And indeed -- choir doesn't quite cover it. Antandrus (talk) 03:07, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, yes, we don't have an article on opera chorus, but I have no idea what they're talking about re: naming a member of one or describing how to sing in one. We don't have an article on opera singer either, it redirects to opera. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 17:18, 15 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I can try and whip something together. Of course the size of the company really has an impact on the requirements for the ensemble. Larger companies like the Met, the Royal Opera, etc. have full time paid choruses which are highly competitive to get into. The singers are professionally trained, usually made up of young aspiring opera singers or singers who have good voices but not good enough to have a successful solo career. Pretty much all of them have voice degrees from a college or conservatory. Smaller companies usually have part time paid choruses; although I know of a few regional companies where the chorus is volunteer and only the lead singers and orchestra are paid. In addition to the choruses, often times smaller roles in operas will be performed by chorus members as well.


 * I have sung in paid opera choruses in Tulsa and Philadelphia. In Philly pretty much everyone had a voice degree in the chorus. In Tulsa all of the women had voice degrees but the need for men was such that they pulled in some non professional singers. Both choruses provided some one on one training in vocal technique and foreign languages in addition to ensemble rehearsals. Part time choruses tend to rehearse two to three nights a week, except in the summer when they are off or closer to production time when rehearsals happen almost every evening and on weekends. Full time choruses rehearse four or five times a week on top of performances. Full time choruses also provide one on one voice training for their singers on a weekly basis (they'll have vocal coaches on staff for the chorus) The hard thing in writing on a topic like this is referencing it since people don't write all that much on the ins and outs of the opera chorus.4meter4 (talk) 19:49, 15 April 2012 (UTC)


 * There is another aspect to this, viz. the history of the use of chorus in opera.....--Smerus (talk) 20:38, 15 April 2012 (UTC)


 * It would be interesting to see a list of famous names who started their operatic careers as lowly and anonymous members of their company's chorus before getting their big break. --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  21:07, 15 April 2012 (UTC)


 * That would be great to include!
 * When I posted that I was thinking more along the lines of Smerus -- it seems the topic is not covered anywhere in Wikipedia (that I was able to find). There is a lot to say.  I scratched around my library this morning and found surprisingly little, at least in one place.  Grove includes some good information in the "choir" article.  On what distinguishes an opera chorus from any other type of ensemble -- I couldn't find anything.  I've seen some elaborately staged productions where the chorus did a lot besides sing.  I think what poked me to post was the tone in Chloe's voice -- incredulous that "not even Wikipedia has an article" (or some such wording).
 * And then details as 4meter4 gives. The Met chorus is a full time job that used to pay 70K -- in 1994 -- and you could be assured of having to sing every night between September and April (article in the Washington Post, if you've got the new Highbeam access here's the link).  Seems we could have a pretty interesting article; anyhow I thought I'd mention it. Antandrus  (talk) 21:31, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Grove Opera has three and a bit columns on Chorus. After a short intro, it divides into two parts, Up to 1800 (by Marita P McClymonds) and After 1800 (by Julian Budden).  MPMcC discusses operas by Monteverdi, Luigi Rossi, Lully, Rameau, Purcell, Handel, Mozart, Gluck, Traetta, Verazi, Francesco Bianchi, Tarchi and Gazzaniga, plus Metastasio librettos;  JB discusses operas by Beethoven, Rossini, Weber, Verdi, Donizetti, Spontini, Mercadante, Meyerbeer, Wagner, Musorgsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, Smetana, Borodin, Tchaikovsky, Mascagni, Giordano, Gounod, Auber, Puccini, Strauss, Britten, Poulenc, Prokofiev, Stravinsky and Henze, with a final nod to the idea of a Greek chorus commenting on events (the Male and Female Chorus in The Rape of Lucretia and the chorus in Oedipus Rex). --GuillaumeTell 17:53, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Great idea! I only wish I had time to get properly involved.  I know there is some research out there on the role of the Chorus in Verdi, for instance...and Giuseppe Mazzini's great rhetoric for the chorus as a representative of "the people" ("Or, perché il coro, individualità collettiva, non otterrebbe como il populo di ch'esso è interprete nato, vita propria, independente, spontanea?" Filosofia della musica, 1836 / "Or, why would not the chorus, a collective individuality, like the people it is a born interpreter of, take on its own life, independent, spontaneous?"  If someone else wants to take the lead, I'd certainly try to contribute as I can. Lackingdirection (talk) 21:18, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Les Fêtes de Paphos
Les fêtes de Paphos has been renamed to Les Fêtes de Paphos by User:Bibi Saint-Pol. I assume our usual policy still holds, so I left a message at User talk:Bibi Saint-Pol. --Robert.Allen (talk) 07:32, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
 * She would be more much likely to see the message if you left it at her main French WP talk page, at http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discussion_utilisateur:Bibi_Saint-Pol (I've contributed in a half dozen languages, but very rarely check "my" talk pages in them). Scarabocchio (talk) 11:26, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Scarabocchio! Welcome back! Voceditenore (talk) 11:54, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
 * She saw the message, but had some questions that she left on my talk page . I'm not sure how to answer. Will someone leave a better explanation on her talk page? Also, how do we move it back? Do we just undo her edit? Thanks for the help! --Robert.Allen (talk) 20:00, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
 * You could point her to WikiProject_Opera/Article_guidelines. And I have a vague idea that French Wikipedia is somewhat inconsistent over titles (can't remember any examples, though). --GuillaumeTell 10:56, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Just move it back. We've been over this time and time again. The consensus is to follow Grove. --Folantin (talk) 11:16, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Grazie, Voce! My view on life is somewhat changed, and I'm probably only back for the occasional drive-by copy-edit or link repair (though the state of the Britten article still niggles despite some recent improvements). Scarabocchio (talk) 14:35, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

National Opera and Ballet of Belarus
A familiar problem: Opera and Ballet Theatre (Minsk) seems to relate to the building, should it actually be to the company? (as a byway, c National operas was deleted 2008. Is there any mileage, change in the view that a category for national operas is not useful? I'm not saying I necessarily think it is). In ictu oculi (talk) 23:49, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
 * This article is quite problematic in general, starting with the hilarious caption under the lead photo. It's poorly written, and largely cribbed from the official website's history page (itself badly written in unidiomatic English). The current article title is also misleading. Several Eastern European companies refer to themselves as a "Theatre". They also use that name to refer to the building where they perform. You can see what I mean from the official page of the "National Academic Bolshoi Opera and Ballet Theatre of the Republic of Belarus" (as they call themselves in English). The company, which predates the building appears to have been been split into adminstratively separate opera and ballet companies in 2006, but the actual building where they perform has not been separated into "two theatres" as the WP article confusingly states. I think it should be moved to National Opera and Ballet of Belarus and written to reflect more accurately what the situation is. In fact, probably re-written da capo. Voceditenore (talk) 13:30, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, this sounds like a set of good recommendations. Going to involve some work.. Thanks. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:11, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

La damnation de Faust
I see that User:Telos has removed this work from Template:Berlioz operas on the basis that it's a dramatic legend and not an opera (although admitting that it is frequently performed in opera houses). Penguin/Viking, Grove Opera and Kobbé all list it under Berlioz. Are there any other supporting arguments? I'll be happy to revert unless anyone here objects. --GuillaumeTell 15:45, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Looks like someone has already reverted the removal. I agree it belongs on the template. Voceditenore (talk) 08:43, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Robert le diable
In case anyone is interested or wants to pitch in, this article is now being reviewed for GA status here.--Smerus (talk) 15:28, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * now a GA --Smerus (talk) 14:23, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Congratulations, Smerus! I've added it to the article rotaton at Portal:Opera. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 08:37, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Opera Management AfD
This article is being discussed for deletion at Articles for deletion/Opera Management. – Voceditenore (talk) 09:07, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Citation spam in multiple articles
An editor has added this book as to the "References/Sources" sections of multiple articles today. It has only recently beem published and clearly was not a source for any of them. I have reverted the addition from Opera, Richard Wagner, and Der Ring des Nibelungen. For Bayreuth Festival and Conducting, I removed the link to the site publicising the book (which has no useful content for developing the articles) and moved the book itself to Further reading. The remainder of the articles to which it has been added are listed here. I'm going minded to give the same treatment to the rest of the list. Thoughts? Voceditenore (talk) 12:04, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Wholeheartedly agree!--Smerus (talk) 07:20, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Looks like another editor reverted them all, although there have been attempts to restore them. It's quite possible that the book could be valuable further reading, especially for some of the Wagner conductors' bios, but without seeing a sample chapter, it's hard to tell. I don't know if the editor who added it to 20+ articles has a COI re the book, or is simply trying to be helpful. They don't appear to have edited Wikipedia at all, apart from adding the book, with the exception of 2 minor edits to Cahora Bassa (an African lake) back in 2009. Voceditenore (talk) 11:02, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Mario Lanza / Infobox
I undid one more edit in the Mario Lanza article relating to the addition of yet another infobox and inform anyone interested of the likelihood of a revert war. I probably won't be keeping an eye on it any further. By the time you've read this there's a good chance the infobox is back up. By the way, the link WikiProject_Opera is now broken which doesn't help much. Whoever "cleaned up" the front page didn't do so with much thought. NewYork1956 (talk) 09:27, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The guidelines are now at WikiProject Opera/Article guidelines. He was basically a film actor and a singer of opera (as opposed to an "opera singer"). I'd say that an infobox is OK in this case, if people on the talk page are determined to have one, but I'd use a simple Infobox person instead. Those pop musician ones (aka "Infobox musical artist") are too open to weird, redundant and inaccurate cruft. Not to mention the amateurish "colour coding" which readers don't understand anyway. Voceditenore (talk) 09:49, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * While I agree he was not an "opera singer" the article is both in "opera singer" related categories and part of this group so I feel the group's guidelines should either be enforced or the article removed from related categories and groups. Thanks for the new link. NewYork1956 (talk) 23:10, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I think Lanza does belong in the opera categories since he has appeared in staged operas (albeit only a few), but he was primarily known as an actor and "singer of opera", so will obviously be fitting into other cats as well. The problem is that a WikiProject cannot "enforce" its guidelines, especially when they are at variance with wider practices. In this case the Wikipedia Manual of Style states:
 * The use of infoboxes is neither required nor prohibited for any article. Whether to include an infobox, which infobox to include, and which parts of the infobox to use, is determined through discussion and consensus among the editors at each individual article.
 * Projects can only persuade other editors to follow their guidelines, and if it appears that there is still a strong local consensus to have an infobox, then seek compromise on the least obnoxious variety, i.e., a simple infobox person. Protacted infobox battles tend to take up a lot of valuable editor time, and often get the project a "bad" reputation in some quarters (rightly or wrongly). This then draws editors outside the area with a particular axe to grind, either about infoboxes in general or a past dust-up with the project, to every single discussion they see (or even start them simply to make a point). The end result is a major time-sink. Voceditenore (talk) 10:49, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Requested move of Pietro il grande to Il falegname di Livonia
I posted a request to move at Talk:Pietro il grande. It's not clear cut and probably needs some discussion. Thanks! --Robert.Allen (talk) 06:18, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Is there someway to ask an admin to make this move for us? It doesn't seem like there is much disagreement about it. Thanks for help! --Robert.Allen (talk) 07:06, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I believe that the move can be made by someone who isn't an admin, provided they hadn't contributed to the discussion. On the other hand, User:Antandrus, who is an admin, can usually help in situations like this, and he seems to be around at the moment. (Donizetti sidenotes: I've now acquired a copy of Ashbrook, and BBC Radio 3 is broadcasting Caterina Cornaro at 2pm UK time this afternoon.) --GuillaumeTell 09:55, 12 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Done; consensus seemed clear. (Thank you for putting my username in the edit summary -- that's a good way to get my attention on a quick watchlist check!) Antandrus  (talk) 13:52, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

The Cambridge Companion to Grand Opera 2003
This is a moderately well respected book, though not necessarily the most up to date for French orthography. The suggestion has come up on Talk:Edouard Deldevez, one-time violinist and conductor at the Paris Opera, that since e.g. The Cambridge Companion to Grand Opera 2003 does not use majuscule accent É countrary to French orthography that WP:FRMOS guidance on É should be disregarded. Since this could conceivably eventually effect more important articles I mention it here. Obviously the specific case stands on its merits, but I am interested in hearing views on how it would/should affect Édouard Lalo or Étienne Méhul. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:26, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
 * this is Cambridge University Press house style - they have theirs, Wikipedia has (by evolution) its own. Grove also omits accents. But I am not losing sleep over it, as long as the redirects work.--Smerus (talk) 18:50, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Now that computers have become sophisticated enough to support these accented captal letters, I'm totally in favor of using them. And like Smerus says, we can always make redirects with the unaccented versions. --Robert.Allen (talk) 02:19, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Meyerbeer
For interest, I am slowly ploughing through Giacomo Meyerbeer with the intention of bringing it up to GA status. This will eventually involve placing detailed stuff about the operas in a separate section of the article, and gathering up the other scraps into some sort of continuum - I envisage separate sections for Meyerbeer/Wagner and modern productions (as a present), on influence/reception, etc. Comments and additions/corrections from others greatly welcomed, of course. --Smerus (talk) 08:18, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I've finally put this up for GA (see Talk:Giacomo_Meyerbeer) so of course everyone is free to weigh in....--Smerus (talk) 16:02, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Maria Galvany
Please, check this information: "Granada Hoy" magazine, and so she didn't born neither in 1878 nor died in 1949, because the new looked at soprano Adelina Colombini,whom died in that year and, like Galvany, was andalusa and by Córdoba." "General informations about Maria Galvany belong to another brasilian soprano called Maria Galvani, whom full name was Fanny Maria Rollas Galvani born on March 25, 1878 and died in poverty on November 2, 1949 in the San Luis Asyluma, a hospice in Rio de janeiro. However a Brazilian doctor, Jacques Alain León, claims that she was in killed by influenza in 1918, and that she was a dramatic soprano named Fanny Maria Rollas Galvani, but﻿ Maria Galvany sung in Vaudeville in 1918"  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Staban (talk • contribs) 13:41, 10 July 2012 (UTC) Staban (talk) 13:12, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
 * "Maria Galvany (Maˈri: a Gal vaˈny: ), whom whole name was María Jesús, Elena,Lorenza, Ciriaca,Ramona de San Juan Bautista Galván was born on 08/06/1875 by Ciríaca Martinez and Juan Galbán. She studied singing at the Royal Academy of Music in Madrid followed by some teacher such as Lázaro María Puig and by the baritone Napoleón Vergés. She made one's début at Teatro Principal in Cartagena on 06/04/1896 in " Lucia di Lammermoor " sowing the frenzy through the audience that gave the " regium exequatur " to the singer whom played the " rondò " with full control of the voice,trills,scales " picchettate",turns and several fiorituras in keeping to her very personal style. On 06/12/1896 she entered in Giovannini italian company, in order to take the place of famous artist Ida Saroglia, and the impresario tought to italianize her surname adding a " y " at the end . She married the lawyer Carlos de Tejada and on 04/10/1897 she give birth to Carlos,her first-born. She recorded gramophone discs with renowned colleagues such as the baritones Titta Ruffo and Andres Perello de Segurola, the tenors Fernando de Lucia, Aristodemo Giorgini, Francesco Marconi,Remo Andreini. She died on 08/03/1927 ,unfortunately, when electrical recording took one's first steps as well as ,unluckly, the archaic recording sets don't gave fairness to her pure timbre tone and to her virtuosistic vocal gifts. In fact, these was erroneously excuse, by posterity, like a recording defect risult that speeded up the time. Moreover if some sources say that she never sang at Metropolitan Opera House, a page of ABC newspaper dated 09/06/1909 can confute it as she performed in " La sonnambula " and in " Il barbiere di Siviglia " or at Covent Garden, a page of " The London Times " dated 06/03/1909 quote : « Maria sings the brilliant passages with considerable skill . . . She looks youthful and acts with courage and sincerity. His success is not questioned even for a moment. . . She sangs a high F and had to repeat " Ah ! Non giunge " ». About biographic informations, they had been found by some journalists of
 * from: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJzv1wnaqYA
 * article from "Granada Hoy": http://www.granadahoy.com/article/granada/408916/la/diva/universal/pinos/puente.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Staban (talk • contribs) 13:31, 10 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Note the Granada Hoy article referred to is this one:
 * Granada Hoy (26 April 2009). "La diva universal de Pinos Puente"
 * It seems very well researched, and points out that 1949 date of death and death place as Rio de Janiero resulted from confusion with a Brazilian singer of the same name. According to Granada Hoy, the "real" Maria Galvany died in Madrid in 1927. The WP article needs a lot of work, even without this information. It has no inline citations, very vague sources, and an unencyclopedic style. I'll put some maintence tags on the article and note the new source on the talk page. Possibly someone can get round to fixing this soon. I won't be able to even start on it until next week. Voceditenore (talk) 14:54, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Maria Stuarda
This is too important an opera to be missing a complete synopsis. Viva-Verdi started one. Can someone can help out? --Robert.Allen (talk) 19:50, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I've filled out the missing scenes/acts with brief sketches of the action. Everyone else, feel free to elaborate them. I've also done some general copyediting of the article. It probably needs more, but this kind of stuff ("A complete Opera Rara recording and pdf with historical information of the play can be found on-line through the Naxos Music Library.") does not belong in the text of an encyclopedia article, let alone the lede. On top of that, Opera Rara did not record this opera. They recorded Mercadante's Maria Stuarda. Ditto comments as to what Joyce di Donato is scheduled to perform a year from now. Ditto the pointless comment "There are several recordings." in the Performance history section, when the article has an entire recordings section. Voceditenore (talk) 06:55, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you for helping! I've been trying to finish up the Donizetti list of operas, which is why I noticed it, but I keep getting sidetracked. (Easy to do when one is filling in a table...) --Robert.Allen (talk) 07:03, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Composer infoboxes
User:Magnus Manske has been adding Template:Infobox classical composer to numerous opera composer articles. This seems to pretty much ignore the documentation which says: "infoboxes should generally be avoided in articles on classical composers". Has the policy been changed? --Robert.Allen (talk) 22:42, 12 July 2012 (UTC)



I have restored this at the Composer WP .....use of infoboxes is neither required nor prohibited for any article. Whether to include an infobox, which infobox to include, and which parts of the infobox to use, is determined through discussion and consensus among the editors at each individual article. See also: WP:Advice pages .. ..Moxy (talk) 22:52, 12 July 2012 (UTC)


 * See my comments above at Mario Lanza/Infobox. Incidentally, Moxy himself added that to WikiProject Composers two days ago and restored today after another editor there removed it. It was not a change initiated by that project. Frankly I don't have a problem with the addition, but then I'm not a member there. Neither is Moxy, for that matter. – Voceditenore (talk) 06:22, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Template:Infobox classical composer seems to suggest that the addition of the template should be discussed first on the talk page before it is added. That doesn't seem to be happening. The ones User:Magnus Manske has added mostly merely repeat the life date info in the first sentence of these articles, so I don't see that they add anything. However, I certainly don't want to get involved in a "time-sink". That happens to me all too often as it is, and I don't really care about this enough to want to do it, but I wouldn't mind casting a vote against the addition of these rather useless ones. --Robert.Allen (talk) 07:08, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The ones with images, are basically just elaborate captions. I don't have a problem with those. The ones without an image are rather pointless clutter, but I can't get excited about it. If an infobox lacks an image, and anyone cares, simply remove it with an edit summary and if that's reverted and editors feel strongly about it, then start a time sink discussion on the talk page. My 2 cents. Voceditenore (talk) 07:42, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * PS There's a somewhat related time sink discussion at the Village Pump, although the original poster's position isn't gettting a lot of traction. Voceditenore (talk) 07:49, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm writing not from my usual home but from Washington DC where I'm attending Wikimania. Yesterday there was a long session on Wikidata - which is going to take care of infoboxes by using data, rather than the text models we're now using, and that all infoboxes on all language wikis will therefore be synchronized to one another.  There won't be text anymore, but data, stored in another location (which one will be able to edit).  Under the circumstances, it sounds like a colossal waste of time to add or edit any infoboxes until Wikidata gets off the ground. -- kosboot (talk) 11:25, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree. I can't imagine why anyone would want to spend their available editing hours simply adding infoboxes to articles they've never even edited and/or on subjects they know nothing about. However, these initiatives sometimes take a long time to perfect and get off the ground. If I were to find some egregious inaccuracy or misinformation in an infobox, I'd still correct it. Voceditenore (talk) 11:44, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi guys, I stopped adding infoboxes to composers when I remembered that this is not wanted by the wikiproject; I've continued with scientists. To put this in context: I am testing an editing help tool, same principle as AWB, but directly in the web browser. The infoboxes are mostly generated from Persondata and some text matching. Also, I'm doing only ones with images. Besides tool testing, I am well aware of wikidata. But initially, there will be no ... data on wikidata to fill into "automated" infoboxes. Now, where do you think the "seed" data will come from? Here's a hint: it starts with an "i" and ends with an "x"... --Magnus Manske (talk) 12:43, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi Magnus. Aha! There's method to your madness. :). Actually, if you've only made infoboxes for composers with images, it's not really a problem, at least as far as I'm concerned. But can't the seed data for Wikidata come from the personadata in the article? Does this mean that if/when Wikidata is finally up and running, every article must have an infobox? The mind boggles. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 15:13, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I believe the idea is to eventually move all the common data to wikidata (e.g., the list of interwikis, date of birth, ...), and the data for an infobox can be "transcluded" from the wikidata repository. this does not mean that every article will have an infobox, but that the data can be kept in sync between different language wikipedias.  the FAQ for wikidata does a pretty good job of explaining it.  I agree that the persondata should suffice for seeding the database.  once this is up and running, we should be able to house the persondata stuff on wikidata and not have it in directly in the articles. Frietjes (talk) 17:29, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * FWIW, my tool scans the text for specific details (e.g. place of birth) that are missing in the Persondata. It also unifies date formats, using the appropriate templates. So it's not "just" transcribing Persondata into Infobox. That said, the Infobox adding is more a field test for the tool, which should not be limited to Infobox adding. --Magnus Manske (talk) 17:49, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I could be wrong, but I thought I heard them say they're going to start rolling this out in "late summer" of this year. -- kosboot (talk) 18:44, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Opera videographies - category question
New OP member, Jburlinson, has created quite a nice videography of Parsifal: Parsifal videography. For want of something better, I've categorised this in Category:Opera discographies. Is that OK or should the category name be changed to Category:Opera discographies and videographies? As far as I know, we have no other separate videographies for operas or opera singers, although we may get more in the future. Voceditenore (talk) 06:46, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I looked up the term "videography" in my computer's (admittedly American) dictionary. It is defined as "the process or art of making video films". This was the only listed definition.
 * For "discography", the definition is "a descriptive catalog of musical recordings, particularly those of a particular performer or composer". This could easily be regarded as including both audio and video musical recordings. (And this definition would presumably encompass any recording format, whether cylinders, 78s, LPs, tape, CDs, DVDs, BluRay discs, digital files, or even filmed recordings.)
 * A more accurate title for this page might be Parsifal video discography, and Category:Opera discographies, where you put it, is probably the correct category. If a number of "video discographies" are created, then Category:Opera video discographies would likely be an appropriate subcategory of Category:Opera discographies. --Robert.Allen (talk) 07:38, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I added a "Requested move" to Talk:Parsifal videography, so that the issue can be discussed there (although of course it is also a more general question). --Robert.Allen (talk) 08:07, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Double bannering Wagner and G & S project articles revisited
In the past, it has been the practice here not to double banner with WikiProject Opera articles in our "daughter" projects, WikiProject Richard Wagner, and WikiProject Gilbert and Sullivan, although we do banner some G & S singers who have also had significant careers singing "regular" opera. Last December we had lengthy discussions on double-bannering, archived here. The outcome was that there was a consensus for relaxing the "no double bannering" recommendation for composers who have written multiple operas or even only one opera if it is in the standard repertoire, or those who have been strongly associated with opera in other ways. But perhaps we should re-visit this re the articles in the G&S and Wagner daughter projects. The original impetus for relaxing "no double bannering" was that it could be a help of we ever decided to add "importance ratings". Instituting "importance ratings" seems to be dead in the water ar the moment. However, I can see some other good reasons for relaxing it re G&S and Wagner.

Principally, without the OP banners these articles will not appear in three useful bot-generated pages: Portal:Opera/Featured content (Featured articles and Good articles), Portal talk:Opera/Featured content (the expanded list which also includes former Good articles, Did you know? articles, and In the News articles), and WikiProject Opera/Popular pages.

What do members think? Voceditenore (talk) 07:19, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

I am happy to double-banner if the other projects are amenable. I certainly believe that WikiProject Richard Wagner loses out as mentioned in Voceditenore's penultimate para.--Smerus (talk) 13:22, 14 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm in favour of double-bannering appropriate articles in both daughter projects, plus adding the OP banner to articles on composers who have composed any operas. --<b style="color:forestgreen;">Guillaume</b><i style="color:blue;">Tell</i> 08:20, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * GT, could I suggest that it should be added to composers who composed either an important opera or for whom opera comprised a significant part of their output, rather than *all* composers who may have composed a stray opera or two and then turned away from opera. Otherwise composers could be bannered with lots of projects that have only tangential interest in them.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:42, 25 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Further to the above, I've investigated the top 150 articles in the latest WikiProject Composers/Popular pages dump. Ignoring non-operatic and borderline composers, there are 29 composers with our banner - Mozart, Vivaldi, Schubert, Handel, Shostakovich, Richard Strauss, Britten, Salieri, Rimsky-Korsakov, Rossini, Johann Strauss II, Purcell, Mussorgsky, Monteverdi, Humperdinck, Smetana, Offenbach, Weill, Borodin, Donizetti, Penderecki, Lully, Adams, Berg, Gluck, Janacek, Gounod, Bellini and Weber.  There are also 19 composers without our banner:  Beethoven, Debussy, Stravinsky, Haydn(!), Rachmaninov, Prokofiev(!), Bernstein, Schoenberg, Dvorak(!), Saint-Saens, Holst, Berlioz(!), Fauré, Barber, Ligeti, Poulenc, Hindemith, Telemann, Delius.  So it's not as if we're treading on anyone's toes by adding the WPO banner to any/all of them or others further down the list - and indeed, many of the articles seem to be bannered with WP:WikiProject Dance, WP:WikiProject Ballet et al. --<b style="color:forestgreen;">Guillaume</b><i style="color:blue;">Tell</i> 21:21, 16 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Support double bannering. -- kosboot (talk) 22:56, 16 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I've posted a note about this discussion at the talk pages of WikiProject Richard Wagner, and WikiProject Gilbert and Sullivan. Unless we hear any howls of protest from them in the next week or so, I think we should go ahead with this. I note that the G & S project talk page seems a little inactive—most recent post before mine was in March 2011. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 14:36, 25 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Support double bannering. Even regardless of the current issue, not everything related to Richard Wagner or G&S is necessarily opera (e.g., some of Wagner's non-opera related writings), and so double bannering should have always been appropriate. Rlendog (talk) 15:06, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, we would't banner every article in those projects, only the ones that are relevant—articles on operas/operettas and their performers or composers. Ditto Wagner. The test might be: "Is this article suitable for inclusion in any of the sections of Portal:Opera?". Voceditenore (talk) 15:40, 25 July 2012 (UTC)


 * No howls of protest here, though I am not going to have time to go through and add the additional banners (I am about to go on a wikibreak). I really would rather that this happened after August 11th. If a person had a very substantial connection to opera other than G&S, I think it is a good idea to add the opera banner.   For example, Richard Suart is currently bannered for G&S, but he has done quite a bit of other opera, so I think it's a good idea to add an Opera banner.  I would also support adding the opera banner to all of Sullivan's operas and also to Gilbert's operas with other composers (for example, The Mountebanks).  But I would hope that if the Opera banner is added to an article that is currently bannered for G&S that the Opera banner will be placed below the G&S banner, and it would be helpful to add a banner shell if there end up being 3 or more banners.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:36, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree, and if they are double-bannered the G&S and Wagner projects shouldn't have to do the work. I doubt if we'd get started until the autumn in any case, as a lot of us are away in August. Voceditenore (talk) 15:43, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Reference subheadings
Apparently there is a problem with screen readers and our current practice of using, for example ";Notes". See some discussions here and here. (We originally picked this up from featured articles, and apparently it is used in thousands of articles on the Wikipedia.) I'm not suggesting we immediately go around and try to fix all our opera articles that already have it (although in the long run this may be a good edit to make; it may actually at some point be done with a bot, I hope). I do think going forward we should switch to Notes. I'm going to modify our advice at WikiProject Opera/Article styles and formats to reflect this, but wanted to call attention to it here. --Robert.Allen (talk) 22:10, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:02, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Hilde Rössel-Majdan
How could we live without Hilde Rössel-Majdan? I found some sources, but nice details from de are unsourced, help and expansion welcome. - Unrelated question: can a voice type be assigned to Arthur Williams (actor), pictured above? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:50, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I see that German Wikipedia also has an article on Rössel-Majdan's husband. Arthur Williams is described as a comic baritone in the article Dorothy (opera). --<b style="color:forestgreen;">Guillaume</b><i style="color:blue;">Tell</i> 17:10, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * now also new Helene Wildbrunn, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:17, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for improving the contralto! (But Australian? wishful thinking? made me smile) - We should have an article on that Hans Braun (baritone) (or bass?). Capriccio discography had the same wrong person, I fixed it and a few others, but someone with patience should look at it, many links are missing, others wrong, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:08, 21 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Re Arthur Williams (actor) and Dorothy (opera)... I notice the roles list in the WP article is unreferenced, but this book describes his role (Lurcher) as "second tenor". It also has the original cast list. Who knows? Voceditenore (talk) 17:46, 21 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Next such question: Florence Perry, pictured above now. Did you know that the opera DYK archive has only 5 contraltos? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:03, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Teatro La Fenice on Youtube
Teatro La Fenice appears to be far more generous than most opera houses in uploading its productions on Youtube (official channel, linked from, so there is no doubt about its authenticity). Much of it so far is just bits, but they are long bits, as in entire acts, which is far more than the two or three minutes one gets from other opera house channels. Of Rossini's Maometto II, both acts are available in decent quality and with English subtitles. Most of their uploads are very recent, so I expect that there will be more appearing in that channel. --Hegvald (talk) 11:59, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Another "citation spammer" - Puccini this time
Keep an eye out for edits to Puccini-related articles. Various UK-based IPs are cite-spamming
 * Colin Kendell, 'The Complete Puccini' Amberley Publishing 2012

They never include a page number. They sometimes just stick it in as citation at random points and other times also add misplaced commentary referenced to the book.

The book just came out last month (surprise, surprise). The author claims to be a professional genealogist. He's not a Puccini scholar. His previous tome was Jack the Ripper: The Theories and the Facts. The publishing house specializes in "local history" books, and happily accepts "submissions" from authors. I suggest reverting all such edits. Voceditenore (talk) 12:45, 27 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Noted and agree. However I see that the Giacomo Puccini article itself is poorly sourced (large areas and numerous statements lacking citations) and rather unbalanced (e.g. a lot about versions of Turandot, long lists of works)  - I don't of course suggest using Kendell's magnum opus to fill these in, but a makeover is needed.....--Smerus (talk) 13:55, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, I was quite appalled when I looked at today. The encyclopedia that anyone can edit, and plenty of 'em have clearly been sharing their random thoughts about poor old Giacomo. Ugh! Voceditenore (talk) 14:18, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I have tried to do some initial clearing up, deletion of waffle, reordering, etc. with Giacomo Puccini, but it's not really my field and I don't have any of the big biographies. Can anyone step in and help?--Smerus (talk) 10:03, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Dvořák
Per a request on my talk page, I am posting here about Antonín Dvořák. I am trying to get the article up to GA/FA status. The discussion is at Talk:Antonín Dvořák. All are welcome to assist in this process, and input, comments, expansions or ideas would be very much appreciated. Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 21:33, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Meagan Miller
I found Meagan Miller as a 2008 DYK article, but "she" is an orphan, and the article looks little "wikified", help? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:12, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I've taken the red pencil to it. Since 2008, it has been extensively edited by the subject (or one of her associates) who basically copied the contents of her website and all its attendant puffery into it. It's a bit better now, but still needs more references. Voceditenore (talk) 16:06, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you! - The next soprano I found in November 2008 is deleted, but guess we leave it like that? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:26, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Do you mean Gail Robinson? She's still here, but under a different title. See Gail Robinson (soprano). It got moved in 2009 and the original page title (Gail Robinson (singer)) was deleted rather than left as a redirect. I've fixed the link at Recent additions/2008/November. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 12:16, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

September CoM and OoM
Does anyone have any suggestions or requests for the September Composer of the Month and Opera of the Month?

Composer of the Month focuses on improving opera composers' biographies and improving or creating articles about their works.

Opera of the Month focuses on improving existing opera articles and the coverage of related subjects (e.g. their librettists, role creators, etc.).

Voceditenore (talk) 17:40, 30 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Not exactly what you're looking for, but if Mercadante's La vestale stays on the agenda for September I can guarantee a synopsis (once I've unleashed my current activity on an unsuspecting world). --<b style="color:forestgreen;">Guillaume</b><i style="color:blue;">Tell</i> 20:37, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Okey Dokey. I've held over La vestale and Orazi e Curiazi as the OoM plus added requests for articles on some of the role creators in those operas. See here.


 * I've made Leoncavallo the CoM. His bio tells us very little about his actual life and needs expansion. We also need an article on his Gli zingari. September 16th marks the 100th anniversary of its premiere. See here. - Voceditenore (talk) 13:40, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

For some future month how about Gaspare Spontini? His bio article is very thin and so are most of the opera articles.--Smerus (talk) 17:47, 4 September 2012 (UTC)/

Category:Klingon-language operas
This category is again being discussed at Categories for discussion/Log/2012 August 27. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 14:29, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Closed as Keep. Voceditenore (talk) 09:40, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Where's Dick?
The opera, that is. See Articles for deletion/Where's Dick?. Voceditenore (talk) 17:50, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Closed as "Keep". Voceditenore (talk) 15:50, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

The Minotaur synopsis
Hi all. I've just added a synopsis to The Minotaur. It's the first synopsis I've contributed from scratch, so any comments or amendments would be very welcome. Many thanks, OperaBalletRose (talk) 16:28, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Martin Petzold
The tenor performed "Flaut in Ein Sommernachtstraum" - which one? Britten? 20th century GDR composer? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:15, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * de-WP has one by Franz von Suppé? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:26, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Giacomo Puccini discussion
Members may be interested in joining this discussion on the talk page. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 09:38, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

DYK opera
You may have noticed that I placed a DYK related to opera on top of this page. I am through with the archives. Today's is different, the composer is featured right now, but with works for which he is better known than his one opera. You are invited to: 1) add "hooks" up here in the future, 2) nominate opera-related articles - the time when there were two hooks one day are gone, 3) grab interesting ones from the archives and present them again, 4) combine sets for the portal, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:50, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Just a note about combining hooks for a portal page, e.g. Portal:Opera/DYK/1. Unlike here on the project talk page, the wording for all DYKs in the portal must be exactly as it was in the original DYK. There are some other fiddly requirements as well. If anyone wants to add another DYK page for the portal, I've explained how here. By the way, I've written quite a few articles which would have qualified for DYKs. But I didn't nominate them because if you nominate an article you've created or 5x expanded, you are required to review another nomination and I simply don't have the time. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 09:10, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
 * If you look at the archive by topic, the wording IS exactly as it was on the Main page. In the archive by date, occasionally there is an extra (pictured), no more difference. The free hook of today didn't go to an archive, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:36, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Does this mean that you are retiring from creating DYK? or that you are no longer going to maintain the list at the top of WikiProject Opera? (I have an article in mind :-)  Scarabocchio (talk) 13:24, 20 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I really like Gerda's new theme of adding date related DYKs to the talk page here. Gerda, I think you should go ahead and edit the DYK text here on the talk page make the date relationship clearer if you want. For example
 * ... that coloratura soprano Dolores Wilson (August 9, 1928 – September 28, 2010) created the title role in the world premiere of Douglas Moore's The Ballad of Baby Doe at the Central City Opera in 1956?
 * It's only the Portal DYK pages that have the requirement to keep the exact wording of the original DYK. (It was one of the requirements for our Featured Portal status.) Best, Voceditenore (talk) 08:07, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Category:Adaptations of The Magic Flute
Category:Adaptations of The Magic Flute, which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has been nominated for renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 09:46, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I think the correct link is this. "Propose renaming Category:Adaptations of The Magic Flute to Category:Works based on The Magic Flute" as "Nearly all subcategories of Category:Works based on literature have subcategories in the format of "Works based on (X)." This is an outlier from that format"  almost - instinct 11:56, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Now renamed to Category:Works based on The Magic Flute - Voceditenore (talk) 11:25, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Susan Jiwey
This article is being discussed for deletion at Articles for deletion/Susan Jiwey. — Voceditenore (talk) 09:31, 10 October 2012 (UTC)