Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 116

Archives Table of Contents

R.I.P. Bruno Bartoletti
This article could use some major clean up. I worked on the lead, but don't have time for much else. Given that he just passed away in June there probably will be more current traffic to this page.4meter4 (talk) 14:01, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi 4meter4, great to see you here, again! It doesn't look too bad, but I agree, it needs a good copyedit in general. It also reads a little too much like an obituary. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 18:20, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Nice to see you, I will move you on the sad list of people we miss, - enjoy real life, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:15, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you all. I've missed our collaboration as well. It's nice to be back for a little bit. I'll probably be around on and off this month and then I will be gone again. I will be starting up some graduate courses shortly at the University of the Arts which will keep me pretty busy until the end of July, and then I go back to teaching my own students and rehearsing with the various music groups I conduct/perform in come August. I'll probably be around on and off this month and then I will be gone again.4meter4 (talk) 19:13, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

200th Anniversary of Verdi's birth this October
I know I am not around much these days, but I thought I might point out that Giuseppe Verdi has a 200th birthday coming up in October. It would be nice for the project to feature one of opera's flagship composers that month. It would be great to improve Verdi's biography (FA?) and some related pages in time for his bicentennial. Perhaps User:Brianboulton and User:Tim riley would be willing to help get the article ready for FA/the main page? Also, Gerda might be able to put together some related things on the portal. What do you all think?4meter4 (talk) 21:30, 2 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, I'm in the middle of a summer-long project (when I don't get diverted off into areas like Dr. Sun Yat-sen (opera) as I have been all day it seems!) to get all the Verdi articles updated and each with a "Composition history", "Performance History" (most have this, though Voceditenore's discovery of http://www.librettodopera.it/librettodopera/ has been a great resource for (mostly) 19th C. performances), and also a section on "Music", as well as the usual sections such as "Recordings" which are mostly up top date, though with the loss (death of the compiler, I believe) of the operadis source, we're rather limited to Amazon, etc. Am currently up to I masnadieri with a bit more to do there.  Some later articles have a lot more than the early ones, of course.


 * One question: please take a look at the Otello section which has been tagged as "personal opinion" for five years....!! Do we just get rid of it??


 * I would guess that the Giuseppe Verdi article will need a lot of work to get to FA status...... Viva-Verdi (talk) 22:12, 2 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, I think FA may be a bit too ambitious at this point. But, we could at least clean up the article and expand it a bit.4meter4 (talk) 19:51, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Fictional opera
I don't think there's an article or list of fictional opera but there should be. If I was at home I might get a start on it (someone else can if they want to). Since I won't be home for 2 weeks, I'm wondering what the parameters should be. Initially I'm thinking of films in which there's an operatic sequence from an opera that doesn't really exist (Tsaritza from Maytime, Salaambo from Citizen Kane or the opera in Charlie Chan Goes to the Opera - and I'm sure there is literature that talks about opera - and maybe operas within operas. Any other ideas of what should and should not go into this article? -- kosboot (talk) 15:57, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Balzac's 'Gambara' is a must.--Smerus (talk) 16:37, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * What about the Phantom of the Opera's opera? I've only read the book in English, I believe it's called Don Juan; however I suspect it'll be spelt differently in French. Adam Cuerden (talk) 08:58, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * From imdb, Oscar Levant was responsible for the Charlie Chan at the Opera one: "His "Crayon est sur la Table", ("The Pencil is on the Table") was a sort of parody of French opera in the style of Claude Debussy. It was a centerpiece (though transformed as "Carnaval" with an Italian libretto) for the 20th Century-Fox film Charlie Chan at the Opera (1936)." According to ClassicalNet, "In Levant's description, ["Crayon est sur la Table"] was written "using all the Debussy clichés from Pelléas – the descending fourth in the voice parts, the parallel seventh chords, and the interrogatory 'Pour-quoi?'" No written trace of this opera has survived." I've not read Levant's memoirs, but I dimly recall years ago a friend recounted a funny story about "Crayon" that he got from them. Drhoehl (talk) 22:47, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Pratchett's Maskerade has a slew of them, of course, but I think most are just mentioned in passing. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 23:05, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Pratchett's Fifth Elephant has enough details of the dwarf opera Bloodaxe and Ironhammer for a basic cast list, an overview and an outline of some of the key episodes ("Not the full five-week version, of course"). Scarabocchio (talk) 06:09, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * There is a list at List of fictional musical works. See also a search for "fictional opera". Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:23, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that Andy - I guess I didn't search hard enough. The list says it's supposed to be in all media, but at least the opera portion is just in literature. Do you think it's best to expand that, or start something new?  -- kosboot (talk) 14:58, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd split it off to a separate article leaving a pointer, and expand that. Note that the page is also tagged as lacking sources. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:12, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Fatinitza
Can I beg some help on this? I think if we can get a well-sourced background section, which'd probably involve detailing Franz von Suppé's role in the development of Viennese operetta, and mentioning his notable works before Fatinitza, we could probably reasonably get this up to Good Article. A musical analysis section would be nice as well, but I'm not holding my breath for an opera now so strongly out of favour. Unfortunately, I don't have Grove, and am having a bit of trouble getting good sources together for the background. Adam Cuerden (talk) 18:09, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Are you based in the UK? Scarabocchio (talk) 18:37, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes. Edinburgh. Adam Cuerden (talk) 22:07, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Most (all?) people in the UK have free online access to the Grove and to Oxford Music reference works. All you need is a public library card with a bar code number on it. Go to http://www.oxfordmusiconline.com/public/login and type it in.  That's it.  Scarabocchio (talk) 08:59, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for everyone's help. With Grove and the other sources I have, I think a pretty good article's been assembled, particularly given the obscurity Fatinitza has now fallen into. I've nominated it for GA. If it passes, it'll be my first GA in years. =) Adam Cuerden (talk) 12:27, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Of possible note: While trying to write the "background" section, I consulted the Wikipedia articles Franz von Suppé and Operetta (we do not have an article on Viennese operetta). They weren't very helpful to that end, to be honest. It might be worth reviewing as to whether the text I wrote (particularly the "Background" and "Legacy" sections) might be useful to bulk out their coverage. Adam Cuerden (talk) 12:40, 29 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Update Promoted to GA and File:Henry Atwell Thomas - Franz von Suppé - Fatinitza.jpg was promoted to Featured picture. Congratulations, Adam! Both have been added to the rotation at Portal:Opera in the "Selected article" and "Featured picture" sections respectively. Voceditenore (talk) 08:06, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you! I'd like to get this to FA, but that's going to need a few "library days" to build a good reception section. Ideally with the help of people with access to Austrian newspaper archives, since it'd be good to get some more-immediate, local reports.  Adam Cuerden (talk) 08:44, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

AfC submission
Another one for ya: Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/An Embarrassing Position (opera). Cheers, FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 21:15, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi again! I left a fairly extensive comment on the draft suggesting merging the information into the composer's article. I think it will be a few years before the work becomes notable enough for a stand-alone article. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 07:46, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * An alternative might be to make an article on the play, which I believe is much more notable, and include the opera information there. Adam Cuerden (talk) 19:48, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Tom Kaufman (User:Buondelmonte)
I only learned recently, and with great sadness, that Tom Kaufman died on April 22, 2010 at the age of 80. I knew him before I even started editing Wikipedia and remember discussing our favourite tenors on the phone years ago. Old-timers at the Opera Project will remember him as Buondelmonte. He joined the project in January 2006 when he was well into his 70s. As you can see here, he was always determined that the tenore got his due. He started the first major expansion of Grand opera and contributed greatly to the early versions of Giovanni Pacini. His last edit here (February 3, 2009) was to add Mercadante's Virginia to the list of Opera Rara's premiere recordings. There is a lovely obituary by Charles Mintzer at Opera Nostalgia: Thomas Kaufman in memoriam. – Voceditenore (talk) 09:56, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you for sharing this, lovely thoughts, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:45, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

About Frederick Jackson, a young baritone(?)/bass-baritone(?)/bass(?) who appears to be article-worthy
Hello all,

See: User:Shirt58/Frederick Jackson (singer).

The article for Jackson was speedily deleted twice on 27 Jul 2013. I suspect that this was because there was an online promotional campaign involved with him singing Porgy in a recent revival of Porgy and Bess.

Most of the references to his work appear to mentions in German-language sources. Could you possibly have a little look into this, and give opinions about whether an article for him would be viable right now?

Thank you! Pete aka --Shirt58 (talk) 12:08, 1 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Based on the 2 footnotes on his user page, I'd say no. But if he's been active since 2007, there must be a number of reviews about him which could possible constitute an article. -- kosboot (talk) 13:47, 1 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I found three external links, there are more but I don't have more time. List roles with places, find Zurich as a major house, - it has potential. It would be good if he was linked somewhere ;) - I wrote an article on a "local" girl who sang in Zurich, Christiane Kohl --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:21, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Yet another AfC submission
Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/L'impresario delle Isole Canarie. Regards and thank you for your help as usual, FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 22:30, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Created—now at L'impresario delle Isole Canarie. Voceditenore (talk) 07:53, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Tiana Lemnitz
I was looking at this article and noted the absence of any mention of her supposed support of National Socialism. But then I saw a note on the talk page: "This article was written by Dalia Geffen, president of the Boston Wagner Society and is used here by permission." Of course this goes against WP:OWN - meaning that the current article should be removed and a new article has to be written from scratch. -- kosboot (talk) 14:08, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
 * OWN says nothing about such cases. If any of the text from that 2007 version remains, and the permission has been verified, it's perfectly acceptable. That doesn't mean it#s not open for further editing, of course. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:13, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm sure Potw is right; we can edit away, as long as what we write is properly sourced. 'Giving permission' cannot preclude other sourced information or opinions being added, or corrections being made on a similar basis. In fact the article as it stands is barely sourced at all.--Smerus (talk) 15:01, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Der Ring des Nibelungen
The first performance of the cycle started on 13 August. Looking at the article, there's room for improvement. I don't want to step on the toes of authors, just some observations:
 * The section "Title" is almost good for nothing. If kept, it should be featured later.
 * The section "Content" seems mostly OR, at least not sourced. Cleanup is needed, it should probably also be moved to later.
 * I suggest to structure the table "List of characters": one line for each character, listing also in which part(s) that character appears.
 * A lot in "Concept" is very general, also not consistently formatted.

Help? The article is seen by around 1k viewers each day, but it's nowhere near the best Wikipedia has to offer. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:03, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Inno delle nazioni
Is this actually in our scope? It's a cantata, and relatively short. Adam Cuerden (talk) 09:51, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * What happened here?--Smerus (talk) 17:28, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Nothing, as far as I know, Smerus. It was just one of the suggestions for rounding out the coverage of Verdi leading up to the bicentenary here. Strictly speaking, the Inno isn't in the OP 'scope', but Verdi certainly is. I don't see what the problem is, Adam, Those CoM and OoM, suggestions are also useful for passing editors who are not necessarily project members and for OP members who may want to branch out. Back to the Tuscan hinterland. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 06:17, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for letting us ignorants know from the Tuscan hinterland that it is a work by Verdi. Same question for Quattro pezzi sacri/Quattro Pezzi Sacri. Should its parts have their own articles, such as Te Deum (Verdi), now redirect? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:37, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * @VdT, @Adam, I meant, what happened to the article? Seems to have vanished.--Smerus (talk) 08:27, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * It was my intention to write (or at least start) it, but this was my first week back from being away. I'll start working on it tomorrow (probably just on my sandbox for now).  I don't see why it should be part of WP:Opera except as a mention in the Aida article (one of the passages from Inno was reused in Aida). -- kosboot (talk) 12:59, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

@Kosboot. Probably not in scope re bannering, if/when it is actually written. It was listed in our August CoM because that one focuses specifically on Verdi's non-operatic compositions, simply as a means of rounding out the coverage of him on WP (the Composers Project doesn't seem to be much interested in Verdi, at least so far). @Gerda, my inclination would be to cover all four of the "Pezzi" in one article and to have redirects from the individual pieces, given that they will be relatively short and that they are often performed/recorded together. Voceditenore (talk) 08:46, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, helps, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:30, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Gotcha, Voceditenore. -- kosboot (talk) 11:17, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
 * P.S. In gathering my sources I note that they also talk about Verdi's other non-sacred choral work, Suona la tromba - so I'll also make an article on that. -- kosboot (talk) 13:03, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Begun work on it. -- kosboot (talk) 03:13, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Article created (much more involved than I thought it would be, but still interesting). Have a look and decide on what banners to put on the talk page.  If Gerda wants to create a DYK, that's fine with me (they always seems to go wrong when I try to create them). -- kosboot (talk) 20:18, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh - one thing: I don't know how to italicize the name of the article - if someone could do that, it would be appreciated. -- kosboot (talk) 20:19, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. - Thank you for the beautiful unspeakable thing! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:02, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
 * DYK also done, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:35, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Terry Barber
I have nominated Terry Barber's article for deletion. He has sung with some notable organizations, but in such minor roles it hasn't yielded any notable reviews of his work in the press. 4meter4 (talk) 23:19, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Closed as "keep", but needs considerable clean up. See the AfD discussion for details. Voceditenore (talk) 07:30, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

On this day - did you know
You know probably that I try to find a fact related to the day to put on top of this page. Some of the articles would profit from improvement. I plan to list those here, not starting a new section everytime.

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:52, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Another AfC submission coming your way
Care to look at this one? Thanks! FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 22:09, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I've accepted it as he was clearly notable and done some very basic clean up. It's now at Mikhail Shuysky (baritone). But.... It still needs a lot more clean up. I've outlined some of the problems at Talk:Mikhail Shuysky (baritone), if any OP members want to take a stab at it. Voceditenore (talk) 17:02, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Is there a reason you moved it from Shuisky to Shuysky? Either transliteration makes sense, but the author appears to be a descendent of the baritone and transliterates it to Shuisky, Mikhail Skopin-Shuisky is also transliterated that way. Ryan Vesey 17:20, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I saw that when I was deciding which transliteration to use. However, I saw that all the other articles on WP use Shuysky, and even the creator of the article used it in the original article in a couple of places. It is also unclear how familiar he/she with standard English transliteration, and they seem not have published anything about their ancestor in English or in other non-cyrillic languages, so it is difficult to know if the family actually use that form. The Russian WP article, of which this appears to be a translation, predates the English one by several months. I'll ask for an opinion from WikiProject Russia, but I'm happy to have it moved. Voceditenore (talk) 06:01, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I've decided to move it to Shuisky with a redirect from Shuysky after all, but I may still ask for an opinion from WikiProject Russia. I'll probably ask them to compare it to the Russian article and see if they can make sense out of some of the places etc. used in the English version so they can be linked properly. I've copy edited the lede and Opera roles section, but the rest of the article still needs a huge amount of work. Voceditenore (talk) 09:52, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Translation, transliteration, and titling issues at Mikhail Shuisky (baritone)
I moved a lengthy discussion on my talk page about various issues with the article (especially its title) to Talk:Mikhail Shuisky (baritone). All input would be welcome, especially from German and Russian speakers, as I may have got the wrong end of the stick on some of them. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 08:53, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Verdi improvements
We can use this section to note other areas for improvements (big or small). I'll start with:
 * Images Many of the Verdi opera articles could use more illustrations. Ditto many of the role creator articles lack images of the person. Voceditenore (talk) 04:27, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Lead sections Make sure that the all ledes contain the date and place of premiere in the first 2 or three sentences. In some articles, you don't find the exact date and place of the premiere until you get to the performance history section. Voceditenore (talk) 04:27, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Verdi improvements and images
The Italian site Internetculturale has tons of material free for distribution. I have not yet managed to figure out how to download a bigger size photo. However the site is a possible source for many missing images. here is one exampleNicoderno1 (talk) 14:32, 25 August 2013 (UTC)


 * If you find any of a decent size that might make Featured pictures; or, alternatively, images which simply need restoration, please let me know. Adam Cuerden (talk) 08:56, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Why are there so many articles about opera singers without a single picture?
I admit I don't understand the issues around non-free content, etc., the only images I have added to wikipedia have been very old paintings or so forth, but I see a discussion on AN/I right now that says "Non-free images can only be used in the articles specifically about the subject depicted in the image and no free equivalent is available." Does that mean that one picture of, let's say, June Anderson could be added to her article? It seems to me as if the vast majority of articles on opera singers do not have a single picture, but if you look at Lady Gaga or Michael Jackson there are pictures, why is that allowed for them but not Anja Harteros, for instance, I don't get it.Smeat75 (talk) 23:52, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi Smeat. Fair use images cannot be used for living people on Wikipedia, apart from a few very rare exceptions, as it is deemed still possible to still obtain a free image of them. So no, you couldn't use a fair use image either for June Anderson or Anja Harteros. The criteria for acceptable fair use are here. Freely licensed images are very hard to come by for opera and classical artists because Wikipedia's license requires the photographer to have verifiably released it under a license that allows anyone (not just Wikipedia) to re-publish the image, even for commercial gain, and anyone to freely alter the image, i.e. under Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 (CC-BY-SA). Here's one example. I took it myself when I was hanging around the stage door at the ROH and uploaded it under a free license.


 * If you click on them, you'll see that all the Lady Gaga and Michael Jackson images are uploaded under free licenses or are in the public domain (i.e. US government photos or published in the US between 1923 and 1977 without a copyright notice). Pop singers give big concerts where it's a lot easier for fans to take photos and then upload them under free licenses. Operas houses and classical music venues usually take an extraordinarily dim view of, i.e. prohibit, taking photos inside the auditorium. The only solution is to hang around stage doors or signings, take the image yourself (and upload it here under a free license) or find one on Flickr uploaded under a free license. Alternatively, you can write to the artist's management and ask them to release an image under CC-BY-SA. That process is fairly long and complicated and professional photographers are usually very reluctant to release their work under such a license. The process is outlined here. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 05:23, 12 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Additionally, recall the problems with photographs of participants in the London 2012 Olympics: Regardless of the photographer, all photographs made on the designated Olympic campuses were considered property of the IOC.  The only way pictures could be obtained was photographing the participants as they emerged from cars or public transportation, before they stepped on official Olympic turf.  What one can do in the case of opera singers is hang around stage entrances and take photographs, or just focus your attention on public domain photographs (i.e. photographs published before 1923). I think there's a hidden category call something like "articles lacking photographs." -- kosboot (talk) 12:26, 12 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Photos from pre 1923 are not going to help articles about current or recent opera singers, having no pictures makes the articles look like stubs or very unimportant articles that no one cares about. To me they have that effect anyway.Smeat75 (talk) 14:27, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Like I suggest, if you take them yourself you can use them. In some cases, an alternative is to use a commercial photograph (say, from a CD cover), and to make the image small enough with a low resolution (say 72 dpi) so that no one can reasonably reuse it.  You can try this with one or two images and see if they remain or are deleted, but you'll have to give strong reasons why those images need to be used (when I've done this, I made the rationale part of the article content itself).  You might want to read the Commons' section on the need to use free content:  https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Licensing - the bottom line is that many articles simply won't have images until the content is available freely. -- kosboot (talk) 14:51, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Notability for Opera Singers
What are the guidelines for notability of opera singers? I just discovered Aida Garifullina (Аида Гарифуллина) and she's fantastic, so I was surprised to see that she doesn't have an article on the English or Russian language Wikipedia. There isn't much written about her, in English at least, but I discovered she won the Operalia this year. That would fulfill the criteria "Has won or placed in a major music competition" of WP:MUSBIO, correct? Ryan Vesey 04:43, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi Ryan. Yes, that would qualify her. Basically, we use WP:MUSBIO, adapted somewhat since the guidelines there are heavily skewed to pop music. For example, we interpret #6 (has been a member of two or more independently notable ensembles) as having sung leading roles (for their voice type) in two notable opera houses on the main stage or as a soloist with two notable ensembles/orchestras. For older singers, an entry in a notable music encyclopedia/dictionary would be enough, and probably having received a major decoration from their country would also be enough. Obviously all this isn't an official guideline, but it represents the kinds of arguments we use in AfDs. Articles for deletion/Marco Lazzara gives a flavour of those arguments as well as links to similar AfDs which closed as keep. Hope that helps and good luck with the article. Let me know if you need help with sourcing and translation. I note there is some stuff on her in Italian. Voceditenore (talk) 06:19, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Why don't we update MUSBIO to cover non-pop? It seems relatively straightforwards. Adam Cuerden (talk) 09:02, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I see Adam's added the stuff about leading roles in two opera houses to WP:MUSBIO, which helps. I might also make a project sub-page here with more details, and links to various AfDs that closed as "keep" or "delete", so editors can see examples of the kinds of arguments used. Voceditenore (talk) 17:08, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

"Critical edition" in reference to operas
I keep coming across the need to refer the "critical edition" of an opera. However, when linking to Critical edition, you can see that it is more appropriate for literary works.

Even Historical editions (music) doesn't address opera at all - or, at least, specifically.

The following comes from the Philip Gossett article:
 * In an interview, Gossett explained what he means by the term "critical edition":
 * By critical edition of an opera I have always meant an edition that bases itself wherever possible on the very finest and most accurate sources for an opera. That means that it must study the entire performance history of a work. In some cases of course we have an autograph manuscript, and that helps us, but it is also where many of the problems start, because composers are known to have made mistakes in their autograph manuscripts. And therefore we are required – we feel it is necessary – to intervene and to correct errors that sometimes have been perpetrated on these works by printed editions from the beginning, so they are just mistakes in the old editions, simple mistakes.[4]

Does anyone have suggestions? Do we create our own "Critical edition (opera)" article? Viva-Verdi (talk) 23:16, 25 September 2013 (UTC)


 * It would be great to have something to link to for that term. I use it fairly frequently in opera articles too. I'd suggest adding a separate section in Historical editions (music). Voceditenore (talk) 09:56, 26 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Good idea to place it there. It involved a bit of reorganization of the lede para. to establish that the article actually refers to three types of historical editions. Anyway, I've started it. Viva-Verdi (talk) 21:01, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Just stumbled on "What does „Urtext“ mean?" at Barenreiter. It asks all of the right questions, but the answer seems to boil down to 'buy a Barenreiter product'. There may be somthing useful in the video linked from https://www.baerenreiter.com/en/focus/baerenreiter-urtext but I have no media support where I am at the moment. Scarabocchio (talk) 16:00, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Buon compleanno, Verdi!
Champagne all 'round for the maestro! Or maybe tomorrow depending on how you interpret his baptismal certificate. It's worth keeping his page and his opera articles on watch for the next couple of days as he may get a "Google Doodle" tomorrow which can lead to trouble. Voceditenore (talk) 10:34, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * May I join? (asking tentatively) - I will celebrate tomorrow simply because I am not ready today ;) - Te Deum (Verdi), viva! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:06, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * ps: The German Wikipedia celebrates with Rigoletto as TFA. It happens to coincide with a SG of mine (their equivalent of DYK). Did you know that it is another translation of a contribution of an almost banned user? The next is in the making. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:59, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Why shouldn't you join in? The maestro has loads of champagne in his cellar. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 12:11, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * You and the maestro are generous ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:00, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I just realized that the template as it currently stands can't include Verdi Square or other such places. Can someone alter it to include parks and other monuments? -- kosboot (talk) 13:52, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I assume you mean Template:Giuseppe Verdi. It has a field called "Recognitions", which seems to be used for that sort of stuff. But it already includes Giuseppe Verdi Monument, which stands in Verdi Square. Isn't adding the article for the square a bit of overkill? Voceditenore (talk) 15:41, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I guess so (I thought the monument referred to something in Italy) -- thanks. kosboot (talk) 15:47, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, the title is rather... er... US-centric. There's a magnificent monument to Verdi in Milan by Enrico Butti facing the Casa di Riposo per Musicisti which was founded by Verdi (and where he's buried), not to mention statues of him all over Italy. It's just as well English Wikipedia has systemic bias or that template would be an even bigger behemoth than it already is. Voceditenore (talk) 16:19, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I opened another bottle, maestro DYK, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:56, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I like the idea of celebrating over two days but there really doesn't need to be much mystery over the date in fact. frWP quotes the birth certificate in its French original: "« L’an mil huit cent treize, le jour douze d’octobre, à neuf heures du matin, par devant nous, adjoint au maire de Busseto, officier de l’état civil de la Commune de Busseto susdite, département du Taro, est comparu Verdi Charles, âgé de vingt huit ans, aubergiste, domicilié à Roncole, lequel nous a présenté un enfant du sexe masculin, né le jour dix courant, à huit heures du soir, de lui déclarant et de la Louise Uttini, fileuse, domiciliée aux Roncole, son épouse, et auquel il a déclaré vouloir donner les prénoms de Joseph-Fortunin-François.»."


 * Days ran sunset to sunset (see Goethe's Italian Journey for a splendid account of his reaction to this), so anything with a defined hour is NOT ambiguous (if you know the hour of sunset). The child was born 'le jour dix courant, à huit heures du soir'.  There will be only one 8pm in a day, and anyone who knows how the days were numbered there and then will be able to give a definitive answer to how a modern would refer to that date.  Dull, but true. Scarabocchio (talk) 16:29, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Fascinating, not dull, Scarabocchio. At this time of year, the sun sets in Parma at 6:30 pm. So does that make his "real" birthday by today's reckoning the 9th, or have I completely balled this up? Voceditenore (talk) 09:17, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I was unclear. It's always going to be fascinating looking at any alternate systems for dividing up something as ingrained in our modern thought as reckoning date and time (see also the decimal French Republican Calendar).  Verdi's "9th or 10th" preserves notice of that sunset to sunset count, and it would be dull if someone who knew about such things gave us the answer, so we had just a boring single date.  The day that starts at our "6:30pm on the 9th" could have been numbered then as the 9th or as the 10th.  The hours could be numbered from some arbitrary point or from the beginning of the day, so 'huit heures' would be 8 hours after sunset. I (of course) can't find my copy of Goethe, but remember liking the concept of a day starting when the work stops and the personal life begins.  Assuming the count starts at sunset, and that day was numbered 10, it puts his birth at our 2:30am on the 10th. If you know the correct answer, please preserve the mystery and do not tell me! Scarabocchio (talk) 03:15, 29 Vendémiaire 222 (FRC)
 * I've found the text in German on Project Gutenberg. Goethe talks about the time system on the entry for "Verona, den 17. September" (1786), where he remarks that the count of hours starts at sunset ("eine neue Rechnung geht an"), and that the bells rang once at what he would have called eight o'clock ("es eins schlägt, wenn es bei uns acht schlüge"). btw, every italophile should read this passage/ book (in their own language, if they wish :-) -- even struggling with the German text and Google's mangled autotranslation, I want to rush off to Italy after reading Goethe's enormous and appealing enthusiam). Scarabocchio (talk) 11:39, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, all that I can add to this discussion is to say that I'm spending the month of October in Italy and was in both Busseto and Parma on 10th, the day that the Italians there celebrated Verdi's birthday with gatherings, speeches, wreath layings, and Falstaff in the former and a special orchestral concert in the latter. This included a concert version of the whole of the 2nd act of Aida! It was quite a day! After the chorus sang "Va pensiero", a loud male Italian voice shouted "Viva Verdi"! and the house erupted in applause. From Italy, Viva-Verdi (talk) 07:13, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Composers by name
I saw the new composer above and added him in the list of composers by name, please do it for other composers you "create" or come across, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:02, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Giuseppe Verdi
This article is fairly good; its major problems are lack of sourcing. For the bicentenary, do you think we could get it up to GA? Adam Cuerden (talk) 07:22, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure Wikipedia will be around for Verdi's next bicentenary in 2101; I know I won't and I suspect not many of the current editors, either. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:46, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
 * It's generally being celebrated as a year, not a day. Ideally, we'd be further along before the day, but I think having a better article on Verdi isn't a bad thing anyway - it's actually on the Vital Articles list. Adam Cuerden (talk) 04:16, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree, in my opinion that article needs a lot of work. There are a number of statements that are not only unsourced but poorly written such as "With Rigoletto, Verdi sets up his original idea of musical drama as a cocktail of heterogeneous elements, embodying social and cultural complexity, and beginning from a distinctive mixture of comedy and tragedy. Rigoletto's musical range includes band-music such as the first scene or the aria "La donna è mobile", Italian melody such as the famous quartet "Bella figlia dell'amore", chamber music such as the duet between Rigoletto and Sparafucile and powerful and concise declamatos often based on key-notes like the C and C# notes in Rigoletto and Monterone's upper register." "Drama as a cocktail"?,"La donna e mobile" is not band music, the Rig/Spar duet is not chamber music, what's a declamato? That sort of thing is not easy to fix, I removed some dubious unsourced statements the other day but would need to think carefully about how to rewrite that passage on Rigoletto.Smeat75 (talk) 11:54, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Why not just replace it wiith something adapted from Rigoletto, a much better article:

Musicologist Julian Budden regards the opera as "revolutionary", just as Beethoven' Eroica Symphony was: "the barriers between formal melody and recitative are down as never before. In the whole opera, there is only one conventional double aria [...and there are...] no concerted act finales." Verdi used that same word – "revolutionary" – in a letter to Piave, and Budden also refers to a letter which Verdi wrote in 1852 in which the composer states that "I conceived Rigoletto almost without arias, without finales but only an unending string of duets."

Budden's conclusions about this opera and its place in Verdi's output is summed up by noting that:
 * Just after 1850 at the age of 38 Verdi closed the door on a period of Italian opera with Rigoletto. The so-called ottocento in music is finished. Verdi will continue to draw on certain of its forms for the next few operas, but in a totally new spirit.

-Rigoletto

Adam Cuerden (talk) 18:58, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's why I didn't respond because I realized the article would need major rewriting, and the thought of going through Philips-Matz's book wasn't appealing. -- kosboot (talk) 19:15, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

A bit of ballet
I am trying to add some more material to La Boutique fantasque. I have yet to find a suitable source for where the music for each dance comes from, but it appears that this reference gives such information:
 * Pritsch, Norbert. Die musicalischen Quellen des Ballets 'La Boutique Fantasque' – ein Beitrag zur Rossini-Rezeption durch Ottorino Respighi. La Gazzetta 8 (1998): 9-15. “...focussing on Respighi's use of music from the Peches de vieillesse and the Soirees musicales in La boutique fantasque and the orchestral suite Rossiniana. Pritsch demonstrates how, in these works, Respighi either remained true to the model or chose different keys, dynamics or tempi. Includes a breakdown of the Respighi work and lists of the Rossini works cited and how they appear in the fourteen movements.”

If a more serious Rossini fan than me has this journal on their shelf and could add the complete movements and source for each in Rossini, that would be a great enhancement to the article. Thanks. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 21:27, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Alas, I don't have a copy, not that it would help much as my capacity to read German is practically zilch. It can be ordered via the this page at rossinigesellschaft.de for 5 euro. The New York Public Library also has it . Best, Voceditenore (talk) 09:25, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your reply. The Rossini Gesellschaft seems more likely than viewing it in New York, so if no one else has it I may invest 5 euros... Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 21:44, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Anna Jeruc-Kopec
Dear opera enthusiasts: This old submission at Afc appears to have some references. Can someone here please check to see if it should be saved from deletion under db-g13? Thanks. &mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 15:53, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi Anne. This draft was pretty much a "throw a CV at Wikipedia's wall and see if it sticks". I cleaned it up and referenced it but left a detailed comment recommending that it not be accepted at this time. There's not really a significant career yet in my view and it would almost certainly be deleted at an AfD. Voceditenore (talk) 15:00, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Voceditenore. About these old G13 eligible drafts:  If not edited, they will be deleted, but once changed in any way, they are good for another six months. I am presuming that you thought there was enough promise to keep it in the "queue".  We'll see what happens in six months.  &mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 15:11, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I did think there was a possibility that her career could take off and/or she could generate more coverage in the coming year. If the article's creator manages to add more stuff, the picture might be changed. If they don't bother, it can be deleted as a G13 six months from now. They can always get a refund. Voceditenore (talk) 15:18, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

CoM nomination: Marc Blitzstein
May I nominate Marc Blitzstein for January (the 50th anniversary of his death)? The article lists 2 sources but has no inline references. Also, I'm sure people from WP:MUSICALS would be interested in helping. -- kosboot (talk) 15:54, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Great idea! Voceditenore (talk) 20:48, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

AfD for Vedontakal Vrop
The discussion is at Articles for deletion/Vedontakal Vrop. Voceditenore (talk) 20:48, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I hope readers may contribute to the AfD discussion. I feel a particular affection for this article, if I may say so, as it is the only one which I created complete with an infobox. :-} --Smerus (talk) 08:29, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Apocalyptica
Please note here an edit war being pursued by an editor who has a strong desire to add details of a concert by a Finnish rock band to the article Richard Wagner. I have also posted this at the Wagner porject.--Smerus (talk) 14:09, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Nina Stemme
I need some advise on the article about Nina Stemme that I try to improve. I am thinking of deleting paragraphs 2-4 in the Career section ... is that a good idea? As it is now these paragraphs seem to describe a small and not fantastically interesting fraction of Nina's busy career. Less is more sometimes. Andersneld (talk) 09:12, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't see anything wrong with them and I don't think they should be deleted. Rather, they should be incorporated into a broader summary of her career. -- kosboot (talk) 15:53, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Apollo Municipal Theater, Ermoupolis - Article?
As this theater apparently resumed hosting operas, perhaps an article could be written for it. The Apollo Municipal Theatre (aka "La Piccola Scala") in Greece is an (alleged) La Scala copy which survived WWII (A similar building on Corfu did not) and which in 2005 became home to the Festival of the Agean with what was allegedly the first opera performed (The Barber of Seville) there (Though supposedly the Italians did so in WWII.) in over a century.


 * 2005 Festival of the Aegean
 * The Apollo Municipal Theatre in Ermoupolis, Siros

I first heard about this building in a Lonely Planet guide and think that it deserves coverage, but I lack the information to do a good article. But if anyone would be willing to assist I would be very greatful. Graham1973 (talk) 14:44, 3 August 2013 (UTC)